Whole house generator?

[ImaCannin]

What is your choice for a whole house propane generator?

[midnight rambler]

Suggest you forget a propane/LPG generator unless you're only utilizing it for hours, not days or weeks because they are serious fuel hogs. Get a diesel generator. When I plumbed my current house for LPG I stubbed out for a LPG generator. Then I researched the matter and concluded LPG is a very bad choice for extended use more than 3-4 days, a 10-12 KW LPG powered generator will empty your 500 gallon LPG tank (actually at 80% max fill it's 400 gallons) in short order

[ziero0]

Using a Honda EU2000i in the evening for 2-3 hours to top off the solar batteries, charge smart phone and run the tv/internet a 5 gallon can of gasoline lasts perhaps 3 weeks. These can be converted to lp for around 150 bux. They burn cleaner and smell less on lp but my rule is to change the crankcase oil and wash the air filter every time I refill the 5 gal gas can. It signifies 50 hours of run time.

[Tumbleweed]

I have a gasoline powered Generac 17500 watt portable generator. I have it for emergencies and for jobs where there isn't power available. It's big enough to run an electric welder, freezers, water pumps and heaters. It's has a sixteen gallon fuel tank and will run about twelve hours on a tank of fuel and that can get expensive. I need one at times to keep livestock waterers open so things don't freeze up and break in winter. The power here tends to go off in winter storms and has been off for a week and a half recently in the winter time. I had the electric company wire mine into my power pole so I can plug it in and it cuts off the power from the power company. It will run everything I use.



Link here to one like I have

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200379773_200379773

[woodman]

MR, I too checked into a propane generator and even put money down for installation but I ended up cancelling when I realized how expensive it would be to run. Unless one has considerations like TW, it is wiser to go with a smaller unit that is not wired in. I made a cord for my small generators and plug it into a 220 outlet when the power goes out. I have to manually throw the switch in my basement but the savings is worth it. I have to be careful not to overload it by running too much at one time.

[ziero0]

I need one at times to keep livestock waterers open so things don't freeze up and break in winter.
We always used an lp stock tank heater with a 100 lb cylinder.

[Hitch]

It really depends upon two questions, how long you anticipate going without power, and secondly, how much power you actually plan on needing (in watts).

Here in CA, we are in fire season, which means the potential for roving blackouts. Usually these last a few days per area, but can be up to a week or more. Most people I talk to are going solar, with a Honda EU2000 gas generator as a backup, like Ziero posted. One guy I know already has a massive solar setup, and he's going to get forklift batteries, which are huge, to supply power to the house.

I just installed a 2000 watt inverter charger. If the power goes out, instantly the inverter kicks on so I don't even have to be home. My next step is installing the batteries, then solar. I have a small 650 watt generator that I can use if needed to charge the batteries, but won't be able to do much else.

[ziero0]

he's going to get forklift batteries, which are huge, to supply power to the house.
Battery banks are like bank accounts. To many you can't be too large with either. This is a symptom of mental illness.


I just installed a 2000 watt inverter charger. If the power goes out, instantly the inverter kicks on so I don't even have to be home.
My inverter runs all the time. It is 800 watts from Harbor Freight and their tariff was $40. It was so cheap I bought a spare.

The inverter is modified sine wave. Avoid the true sine wave units. They are less efficient and put out lots of heat.

The battery bank is one marine battery from Walmart in parallel with two 6v golf cart batteries. This is enough to last all night. There are 4 solar panels around 20 years old at 100w each.

[woodman]

I think the most important consideration when choosing a whole house generator is "how much and how long". Diesel is the most bang for the buck, but gas/propane is a cheaper outlay initially. If you see a need for long periods without grid power or are off grid, then diesel is definitely the best.

[ziero0]

Diesel is the most bang for the buck.
We had an ice storm 12 years ago. The neighbor had power so he loaned his 150hp Deere with Pto generator to a neighbor. His daily cost for fuel was $60.

[midnight rambler]

We had an ice storm 12 years ago. The neighbor had power so he loaned his 150hp Deere with Pto generator to a neighbor. His daily cost for fuel was $60.

Did he need that much HP?? Probably not.

[ziero0]

Did he need that much HP?? Probably not.

He needed the tractor for field work. It's use as a standby generator was convenient. A Deutz would have been more economical.

I used to have a bank of five 2 mw Cat diesel generators at a job I worked at. These were set to come on automatically and feed the plant in parallel with the grid to avoid peak demand charges. They didn't take long to drain the tank.

[Ares]

Since I've moved to the south east I've been through 2 hurricanes and a couple of years ago when Irma was about to hit I bought a Generac GP 6500 generator. Its portable, gasoline and has the capacity to store 7 gallons of gasoline which lasted about 9 hours of run time. I made a suicide plug, manually turn off the main breaker to the house, plug in the end to the 220 outlet, turn on generator make sure its running fine then turn off the breakers to the high energy consumers so I do not overwhelm the generator.

The main reason I bought it was for AC during power outage as some of you who live down south know the summer heat and humidity can be insufferable down here. With AC running it uses about half of the generators capacity, so I can charge electronics, even power up the internet if needed without too much of an issue.

Depending on the size of generator you buy you just have to make a list of electrical essentials and try to gauge how much power it will take to power them and get a generator big enough to be able to power them.

Diesel is definitely the way to go, gasoline has worked for me. I bought 10, 5 gallon containers which can last about a week and longer if I ration the generators usage. Thankfully even after a hurricane the longest I've gone without power is 2 days.

I actually haven't even used it since Irma, but it's sitting in my garage and stored correctly. Stored correctly meaning, it has oil in the crank case, and all gasoline has been drained and run dry to ensure it is out of the system. If Gasoline goes bad in the carb, good luck getting it to start as you'll likely foul the spark plug and damage carb parts especially if you use ethanol gasoline.

That's another consideration, for small engines like generators, lawn mowers, etc. Do not use Ethanol gasoline, use ethanol free, otherwise called boat gasoline. It costs a little more, but ethanol ruins small engines and multiple studies have been done to show that it does.

[osoab]

Since I've moved to the south east I've been through 2 hurricanes and a couple of years ago when Irma was about to hit I bought a Generac GP 6500 generator. Its portable, gasoline and has the capacity to store 7 gallons of gasoline which lasted about 9 hours of run time. I made a suicide plug, manually turn off the main breaker to the house, plug in the end to the 220 outlet, turn on generator make sure its running fine then turn off the breakers to the high energy consumers so I do not overwhelm the generator.

The main reason I bought it was for AC during power outage as some of you who live down south know the summer heat and humidity can be insufferable down here. With AC running it uses about half of the generators capacity, so I can charge electronics, even power up the internet if needed without too much of an issue.

Depending on the size of generator you buy you just have to make a list of electrical essentials and try to gauge how much power it will take to power them and get a generator big enough to be able to power them.

Diesel is definitely the way to go, gasoline has worked for me. I bought 10, 5 gallon containers which can last about a week and longer if I ration the generators usage. Thankfully even after a hurricane the longest I've gone without power is 2 days.

I actually haven't even used it since Irma, but it's sitting in my garage and stored correctly. Stored correctly meaning, it has oil in the crank case, and all gasoline has been drained and run dry to ensure it is out of the system. If Gasoline goes bad in the carb, good luck getting it to start as you'll likely foul the spark plug and damage carb parts especially if you use ethanol gasoline.

That's another consideration, for small engines like generators, lawn mowers, etc. Do not use Ethanol gasoline, use ethanol free, otherwise called boat gasoline. It costs a little more, but ethanol ruins small engines and multiple studies have been done to show that it does.

I have ran ethanol laced fuel for many small engines. I live in corn country. I don't think the fuel is as bad as let on to be if some steps are used. You pointed out some of the best care. Draining the fuel. I am still running top line small engines that are 25+ years old. I run them balls out for an extended period of time. For most home owners, they are using the equipment much and they reuse the old fuel. One thing all manufactures could easily do is add a fuel shut off so the carbs could drain out. It would be simple.

My added list for small engines:
-Let the motor cool before shut off if possible. Let them idle for 2-5 minutes. Push mowers are the one exception for me. Friggin idiot dead mans handles.
-use the highest grade ethanol fuel if that is all you have. 91 octane or above. The fuel sits forever for most. By the time you use a fuel can of 87 octane you are not left with 87 octane at the end.
-for 2 cycle mix, I add 10% to the fuel. It would be a bottle of oil to 1.1 gal of fuel. Once again, by the time a regular home owner uses a gallon of mix, there will be much evaporation. (I don't keep my cans closed)
-Run the machine to the max when you use it. Burn out any crap. They are meant to be used.
-Drain and run dry for long extended periods of not use. If fresh fuel is used on the last use, you can still easily go 3-5 months in the machine.
-Purchase professional grade. Buy once, not every 3-5 years.

[ziero0]

Methanol is what you don't want. Ethanol is ok. HEET seems to be a methanol product. Alcohol will bond with water in gas.

[woodman]

We had an ice storm 12 years ago. The neighbor had power so he loaned his 150hp Deere with Pto generator to a neighbor. His daily cost for fuel was $60.
150 hp tractor is way overkill. Lister motors are awesome. They are fairly efficient. Am I wrong in thinking diesels are efficient for power production? I have never personally used one but I have heard others rate the Listers highly. I don't know if Listers are available anymore.

[woodman]

That's another consideration, for small engines like generators, lawn mowers, etc. Do not use Ethanol gasoline, use ethanol free, otherwise called boat gasoline. It costs a little more, but ethanol ruins small engines and multiple studies have been done to show that it does.
They call it 'Rec' (short for recreational) gas around here. It is running about a $1 more than regular which is about $2.07 right now. My truck gets way better mileage with it.

[Hitch]

150 hp tractor is way overkill. Lister motors are awesome. They are fairly efficient. Am I wrong in thinking diesels are efficient for power production? I have never personally used one but I have heard others rate the Listers highly. I don't know if Listers are available anymore.

Lister motors are indeed awesome. I've been told they will run on just about anything, biofuel, etc. We had one on an old piece of equipment at work, with a hand crank. It would be great to get a hand cranked generator. Listor's are used today in lifeboats on the big ships, so they probably are still available. Another option I've looked at is a diesel DC generator. They sip fuel and can charge batteries directly, for systems that have solar/battery/inverter setup.

edit: woodman check this out. Hand cranked 6 hp listor generator, 3000 watts. $2900. 1 quart of fuel per hour. Man, I would love to have one of these.

http://www.centralmainediesel.com/order/09912.asp?page=L09912

[ziero0]

I don't know if Listers are available anymore.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/202714912259

Small diesels are economical. I am storing a kubota diesel lawn tractor for a friend and he says it takes a third less fuel than gas.

[midnight rambler]

Lister motors are indeed awesome. I've been told they will run on just about anything, biofuel, etc. We had one on an old piece of equipment at work, with a hand crank. It would be great to get a hand cranked generator. Listor's are used today in lifeboats on the big ships, so they probably are still available. Another option I've looked at is a diesel DC generator. They sip fuel and can charge batteries directly, for systems that have solar/battery/inverter setup.

edit: woodman check this out. Hand cranked 6 hp listor generator, 3000 watts. $2900. 1 quart of fuel per hour. Man, I would love to have one of these.

http://www.centralmainediesel.com/order/09912.asp?page=L09912

That outfit no longer sells the Listeroids (Lister CS clones made in India, the original Cold Start Listers were made in England but not for ~50 years) since the EPA has banned the importation of new Listeroid Cold Start engines. Note that the website you linked to is not current (2009 copyright at bottom of page). I think it's still possible to import very well used original Lister CS engines from England but they are very expensive, Listeroids are much cheaper and don't need to be rebuilt.

There's someone in Canada who imports Listeroids and sells them to buyers in the states as "air compressors" with available parts kits to complete them as engines.

Diesel engines are far more efficient at extracting energy from fuel than gasoline engines, plus diesel fuel is slightly higher in BTU content per volume. Heat is a byproduct in gasoline and LPG burning engines whereas heat is what makes a diesel engine run.

Lister Petter engines are NOT Lister CS engines.

[Ares]

I have ran ethanol laced fuel for many small engines. I live in corn country. I don't think the fuel is as bad as let on to be if some steps are used. You pointed out some of the best care. Draining the fuel. I am still running top line small engines that are 25+ years old. I run them balls out for an extended period of time. For most home owners, they are using the equipment much and they reuse the old fuel. One thing all manufactures could easily do is add a fuel shut off so the carbs could drain out. It would be simple.

My added list for small engines:
-Let the motor cool before shut off if possible. Let them idle for 2-5 minutes. Push mowers are the one exception for me. Friggin idiot dead mans handles.
-use the highest grade ethanol fuel if that is all you have. 91 octane or above. The fuel sits forever for most. By the time you use a fuel can of 87 octane you are not left with 87 octane at the end.
-for 2 cycle mix, I add 10% to the fuel. It would be a bottle of oil to 1.1 gal of fuel. Once again, by the time a regular home owner uses a gallon of mix, there will be much evaporation. (I don't keep my cans closed)
-Run the machine to the max when you use it. Burn out any crap. They are meant to be used.
-Drain and run dry for long extended periods of not use. If fresh fuel is used on the last use, you can still easily go 3-5 months in the machine.
-Purchase professional grade. Buy once, not every 3-5 years.

I experienced the ethanol damage first hand. It rotted the seals in my lawnmower carburetor. I had to rebuild it after only 4 years (it was only 4 years old). I was just using regular 87 octane but with ethanol. Since I rebuilt the carb, I have only used ethanol free gasoline I have not had an issue since. It starts up on the first pull every time and its 13 years old. I also perform the maintenance that it recommends. I change the spark plug, engine oil, and air filter after every mowing season. The lawnmower also runs about 100 degrees cooler, which other studies have shown contributes to small engine wear as ethanol gasoline burns hotter. Since small engines are air cooled they're not as efficient to dissipate the heat as automobile engines which are liquid cooled.

After the experience I've had with ethanol gasoline I haven't run anything but ethanol free gas in my small engines for the past 10 years.

[Ares]

They call it 'Rec' (short for recreational) gas around here. It is running about a $1 more than regular which is about $2.07 right now. My truck gets way better mileage with it.

So does my car, I have seen some studies showing that ethanol free gasoline produces more engine power which is why you get better gas mileage. If it wasn't for the corn lobby and government subsidizing its use with questionable environmental studies it would never be added to gasoline in the first place. Ethanol a net energy drain in its production and reduces engine power during combustion.

[midnight rambler]

I've located 3-4 new 6/1 Listeroid CS engines (compressors with parts kits for the conversion) available for purchase, will know more in a couple of days. A 6/1 is $2,505 plus freight. This guy may have larger Listeroids however I didn't ask as I'm only interested in the 6/1 due to fuel consumption and power needs.

A 6/1 Listeroid CS engine producing power -


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5iK2TI-w3U

[skid]

My opinion:
Diesel is the most efficient but propane powered is the way to go. The biggest advantage is that the fuel never goes bad. Both gasoline and diesel have a shelf life. Diesel lasts maybe 2-3 years before bacteria in the fuel becomes a problem, gasoline maybe a year without stabilizers.

Obviously in a long term grid down situation you wouldn't run your generator constantly. Only to charge batteries or draw water from a well or similar.

I bought a Miller Bobcat welder with a propane powered engine. It is also a generator with 10,000 watts of power which can run everything in a house, plus you can weld with it. I have to disconnect from the grid to run on it so I don't feed into the grid with the power down, but it could be connected to a grid sensitive transfer switch too.

I have two 30 pound propane tanks to run it, a 100 pound tank on standby, plus a 1000 gallon main house supply tank which I can connect into if necessary.

[woodman]

My opinion:
Diesel is the most efficient but propane powered is the way to go. The biggest advantage is that the fuel never goes bad. Both gasoline and diesel have a shelf life. Diesel lasts maybe 2-3 years before bacteria in the fuel becomes a problem, gasoline maybe a year without stabilizers.

Obviously in a long term grid down situation you wouldn't run your generator constantly. Only to charge batteries or draw water from a well or similar.

I bought a Miller Bobcat welder with a propane powered engine. It is also a generator with 10,000 watts of power which can run everything in a house, plus you can weld with it. I have to disconnect from the grid to run on it so I don't feed into the grid with the power down, but it could be connected to a grid sensitive transfer switch too.

I have two 30 pound propane tanks to run it, a 100 pound tank on standby, plus a 1000 gallon main house supply tank which I can connect into if necessary.
I was wondering about hooking my propane generator to a large tank. The manual states not to hook it to anything larger than a 20 lb cylinder, must be due to pressure issues, so I wonder if you would need another regulator to neck down the pressure and not blow the regulator that comes with the generator.

[hoarder]

The most complicated aspect of your decision is how much electrical load you intend to carry. If you have one available to use, monitor the voltage and start loading it up. When voltage won't maintain at least 110 volts on each leg, you have exceeded the limit.
The disadvantages of propane outweigh the advantages. There are very few choices in new diesel generators, they all run extremely high RPM (3600 RPM)nowadays. Diesel is a slow burning fuel.
Most new generators on the market today are made of Chinese parts. Guys who use generators a lot use ancient ones if they're mechanically inclined.
Basically your choices today are Honda and Generac gasoline generators. Honda is best https://powerequipment.honda.com/generators but they're overpriced.
For occasional use, a Generac might do. Yes they are Chinese and yes they run 3600 RPM but if you're only planning to get a couple thousand hours out of one it should be OK. I only run non-ethanol gasoline in mine.
I have a Generac 8000 watt, an old Onan 6500 watt and a really old Winco 8000 watt with an Italian diesel engine.

[woodman]

This is a timely thread. I believe we will be seeing grid down situations very soon. I am not looking forward to it, but it is good to be prepared. Even the Amish around here will be affected because they reap many benefits from our petro-fueled society.

[Hitch]

My opinion:
Diesel is the most efficient but propane powered is the way to go. The biggest advantage is that the fuel never goes bad. Both gasoline and diesel have a shelf life. Diesel lasts maybe 2-3 years before bacteria in the fuel becomes a problem, gasoline maybe a year without stabilizers.

I've been using the same diesel fuel for my sailboat engine for 15 years. Engine runs great. What I do to basically eliminate bacteria, is keep the 100 gallon tank full, I mean completely full. No air in the tank, no condensation equals no bacteria growth. Also, the best diesel additive for storing diesel long term is Pri-D.

You can get it online, never have I seen it at an auto parts store or boat chandlery. https://www.aiconsol.com/pri-d-1-gal.html?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adwords&id=297436997516&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIg-nhp_PX6wIVEh-tBh2JsAAHEAQYBCABEgKYWvD_BwE

Pri-D once a year, full fuel tank, and diesel can stay stored for a very long time. Pri-D actually refreshes old degraded fuel, and improves fuel consumption, in less gallons per hour burned than without it.

[skid]

The disadvantages of propane outweigh the advantages.


Name them

[Hitch]

That outfit no longer sells the Listeroids (Lister CS clones made in India, the original Cold Start Listers were made in England but not for ~50 years) since the EPA has banned the importation of new Listeroid Cold Start engines. Note that the website you linked to is not current (2009 copyright at bottom of page). I think it's still possible to import very well used original Lister CS engines from England but they are very expensive, Listeroids are much cheaper and don't need to be rebuilt.

There's someone in Canada who imports Listeroids and sells them to buyers in the states a "air compressors" with available parts kits to complete them as engines.

Diesel engines are far more efficient at extracting energy from fuel than gasoline engines, plus diesel fuel is slightly higher in BTU content per volume. Heat is a byproduct in gasoline and LPG burning engines whereas heat is what makes a diesel engine run.

Lister Petter engines are NOT Lister CS engines.

Great info, midnight. Thanks. I'm always impressed with how much some of you guys know. This is a very interesting and helpful topic.

[skid]

I've been using the same diesel fuel for my sailboat engine for 15 years. Engine runs great. What I do to basically eliminate bacteria, is keep the 100 gallon tank full, I mean completely full. No air in the tank, no condensation equals no bacteria growth. Also, the best diesel additive for storing diesel long term is Pri-D.



It's not the same fuel. Jesus Christ! I've had my car for 10 years and never have issues too.

[skid]

I was wondering about hooking my propane generator to a large tank. The manual states not to hook it to anything larger than a 20 lb cylinder, must be due to pressure issues, so I wonder if you would need another regulator to neck down the pressure and not blow the regulator that comes with the generator.

I can't see why. Check the pressure input rating of your generator regulator vs the pressure output rating of your larger tank's regulator. Should be on the name tags. As long as they are within spec you will be ok.

[Hitch]

It's not the same fuel. Jesus Christ! I've had my car for 10 years and never have issues too.

Actually it is the same fuel. I maybe burn 1 gallon out of 100 gallon tank, just getting out off the dock. Your car doesn't have sails! :)

[skid]

Actually it is the same fuel. I maybe burn 1 gallon out of 100 gallon tank, just getting out off the dock. Your car doesn't have sails! :)

Burned 1 gallon in 15 years huh? I've been involved in power generation for 30 years, with lots of experience in back up diesel power on an industrial level. The biggest issue with diesel is long term storage and bacteria build up. Hate to see the sludge in the bottom of your tank. Better have some good filters on that puppy.

[hoarder]

Name themLow BTU, you have to have a larger engine to do the same job as gasoline. Harder to start because propane displaces air in the intake manifold. Fuel storage considerations.

[Hitch]

Burned 1 gallon in 15 years huh? I've been involved in power generation for 30 years, with lots of experience in back up diesel power on an industrial level. The biggest issue with diesel is long term storage and bacteria build up. Hate to see the sludge in the bottom of your tank. Better have some good filters on that puppy.

I have good filters and actually don't even need to replace them. I got to the point of getting tired of replacing perfectly clean filters every year for maintenance. My advantage is I started with a clean fuel tank. I kept that tank clean by keeping it full, period. No sludge, clean fuel and filters. Keep the air out of the tank by keeping it full.

My point is if a person decides to get a diesel generator, do what I do with my sailboat and you can have a good working generator for 15 years or longer. Without any fuel issues.

I run the engine up every month. Diesels like to run. I keep the tank full by topping it of with a 1/2 gallon or so at a time. I add Pri-D once a year to the fuel tank. The rocking of the sailboat I'm sure helps the Pri-D get mixed in, so a stationary generator for a house may need some thought involved.

[midnight rambler]

Name them

LPG fueled generators are fuel hogs.

BTU content per gallon of #2 diesel - 129,500
BTU content per gallon of gasoline - 114,100
BTU content per gallon of LPG - 84,300

Price of LPG stable atm, however expect availability and price to change accordingly, and it may become totally unavailable.

Gasoline/LPG generators run at 3,600 RPM so wear and tear is much greater and they don't last as long as a low RPM generator


Diesel is the most efficient but propane powered is the way to go. The biggest advantage is that the fuel never goes bad.

Used ATF, used motor oil, used mineral oil, used hydraulic oil, etc. never go bad. A Listeroid* will burn all these oils no problem so long as the oil is clean and free of water. Best of all used oil can be had for free, and if not free really, really cheap...at least right now.

*yes, I realize one cannot simply run down to Homo Depot, Costco, Blowe's, Big Lots, etc. and pick up a ready to run Listeroid CS engine

[skid]

Low BTU, you have to have a larger engine to do the same job as gasoline. Harder to start because propane displaces air in the intake manifold. Fuel storage considerations.

So called disadvantages:
-Low BTU/larger engine - Really? you would be hard pressed to notice that. Not only that but regular gas has ethanol which has less BTU's than propane.
-Harder to start - What? Never had an issue starting a propane powered engine unless its 30 below 0
-Fuel storage - What? are propane tanks harder to store than Jerry cans or larger gas/diesel tanks

Advantages:
-Fuel lasts forever
-Fuel is easy to store in very large quantities
-Engine runs cleaner and cooler than diesel or gasoline, oil lasts longer, less deposits on cylinder heads/pistons. Engine lasts longer with longer service intervals.
-Very well suited for occasional use such as for back up generator.

I'm on a farm and have large gasoline and diesel tanks for my equipment. Propane is much easier to handle. No spills either

[midnight rambler]

Fuel is easy to store in very large quantities

"Easy to store" certainly, but in large quantities it is NOT cheap as large LPG tanks are very expensive.


Engine runs cleaner and cooler than diesel or gasoline, oil lasts longer, less deposits on cylinder heads/pistons. Engine lasts longer with longer service intervals.

Lister and Listeroid CS engines run literally continuously for 10 years or more as irrigation pumps and other applications before needing a rebuild, and a rebuild on a Lister CS engine can be done in a couple of hours, they're as simple an engine as one can find.

Additionally one can co-generate with a Lister, i.e. water heating and space heating.

[Hitch]

Disadvantages to propane, you ask? BLEVE. Diesel fuel doesn't explode.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM0jtD_OWLU

Video has an exciting ending.

[skid]

Okay, run diesels, I don't care. I've got 3 of them and know the advantages and disadvantages. I have worked on megawatt level diesel generators and know the ins and outs. Propane works great for me and most other people with no major disadvantages.

Funny how the industrial diesel generator industry doesn't run Listers though. Must not have your knowledge Midnight LOL.

And hitch, after giving some thought to your situation you must be keeping your diesel cool down near the water. Warmer temperatures likely shorten diesel life.

Also if you live in a cold climate make sure you fill your tank with winter diesel or it may gel and not start in the winter if you use summer diesel.

[midnight rambler]

Funny how the industrial diesel generator industry doesn't run Listers though.

That's just an ignorant statement. Lister CS engines were first introduced in 1929 as a 9 HP version and were never more powerful than 38 HP. They are very low RPM primitive engines that can run continuously for decades in many applications. Many were used in marine applications because they are so reliable. Listers are SMALL engines so why would "the industrial diesel generator industry" even be interested in small, low RPM engines?? (Let's not forget that the EPA banned the importation of Listeroids from India. Also, the Lister Co. in England discontinued the production of all their CS engines in the early '70s and because there were a lot of Lister CS engines at work in India therefore there was a need the Indians started producing the CS engines after Lister discontinued production) However for anyone considering home power generation/co-generation Listeroids are perfectly suited.

FWIW, LPG has 26% less BTUs than gasoline and costs more than gasoline. Sure, LPG will store indefinitely but dayum, the cost of those large capacity storage tanks. And then there's the potential for zero availability of LPG in the future. I'll just continue to go scourge drums and waste oil/atf...

[Hitch]

IMO, midnight is right. Lister is the perfect diesel engine for a generator. Diesels like to run, we've run the same generator at work for weeks at a time, pausing only to check the oil. Diesels like a constant rpm, which is perfect for a generator, and a Lister will run on damn near anything, old diesel, vegetable oil, etc. Perfect for prepping.

Propane, one small bullet hole in the tank from a zombie attacker and you got a big problem.

[skid]

IMO, midnight is right. Lister is the perfect diesel engine for a generator. Diesels like to run, we've run the same generator at work for weeks at a time, pausing only to check the oil. Diesels like a constant rpm, which is perfect for a generator, and a Lister will run on damn near anything, old diesel, vegetable oil, etc. Perfect for prepping.

Propane, one small bullet hole in the tank from a zombie attacker and you got a big problem.

Sure go ahead and buy a lister. If you can find one. There's probably a reason for that. LOL I'm sure I'm a Cannin can get one going right quick and hook it up to her low rpm generator she just happened to buy from Home Depot. Then she can go to the junkyard and drain some oil out of a tranny to keep it going. Face it, a Lister is a niche item for people who like to tinker, a lot.

Despite Hitches questionable experience, diesel fuel just doesn't store long, especially if it has some biodiesel in it which most do have nowadays. Diesel starts breaking down as soon as it leaves the refinery. Recommended storage life is 6 months to one year - https://www.bellperformance.com/blog/bid/114020/guidelines-for-long-term-fuel-storage-of-diesel-and-storage-tanks. If hitch had any sense he would polish his 15 year old fuel on a regular basis before he kills his engine.

A bullet hole in your diesel or gas tank would be troublesome as well. Lots of videos on You Tube showing diesel tank fires. If you are worried about such things you could buy an underground propane tank or protect it with a berm or concrete barrier. Mine's hidden so you wouldn't even know it's there. I'd also be a lot more concerned about people stealing my diesel or gasoline vs propane. And it appears that a bullet through a propane tank won't cause an explosion, just a leak.

[Hitch]

If hitch had any sense he would polish his 15 year old fuel on a regular basis before he kills his engine.

Now why would I polish the fuel, when I have clean filters and the engine running great? I've already explained what I do (and it works) and has worked for the past 15 years. It's simple, yet you have no reasons why it would NOT work. Oh...right, in theory Hitch is wrong. Got it.

Simple, yet self proclaimed geniuses can't comprehend. Again. Full tank (no air for bacteria). Pri-D, you've yet to comment on this product I swear by. Run engine every month.

[hoarder]

So called disadvantages:
-Low BTU/larger engine - Really? you would be hard pressed to notice that. Not only that but regular gas has ethanol which has less BTU's than propane. About 30% less power from same displacement gasoline engine.

-Harder to start - What? Never had an issue starting a propane powered engine unless its 30 below 0 I have. Propane, being a gas, displaces air in the intake manifold whereas gasoline only occupies a small space. You have to deal with gas pressure issues too. Most people don't know what 8 ounces per square inch means, don't have the means to measure it. Then you have freezing problems at pressure drop and the possibility of gas leaking past the regulator. I only run non ethanol gas, so no storage issues.

-Fuel storage - What? are propane tanks harder to store than Jerry cans or larger gas/diesel tanks More container weight per hour of run time.

I worked on natural gas powered engines in the oilfield for 15 years so I understand the advantages. We had some 1197 Waukeshas that had 60,000 hours on the bottom end.....but they ran 900 RPM. Like propane, natural gas is slow burning fuel and even advancing the timing to 30 degrees BTDC is not enough, you have to slow that baby down. Some of our natural gas engines ran 285 RPM constantly.
Also, propane eats up valve seats much faster than gasoline.

Gasoline is the ideal fuel for high RPM engines.

[hoarder]

The old CS low RPM Listers were good, but the China/India knock offs are very problematic. I wouldn't bother.

Many old school generators had to be designed for continuous duty. There are 8760 hours in a year. Most modern engines of any kind fail by 6000-8000 hours. The original CS Listers ran 20,000 hours easy, but so did the 1800 RPM Listers that they made in the 70's and early 80's, like the ST2 I had. It used 4/10 of a gallon an hour running a 7500 watt Lima generator.
In the mid 80's, Lister got bought out and became Lister-Petter, the latter did not last anywhere near that long.

Most modern 1800 RPM diesels will go 8000 hours if taken care of, which is reasonable enough, but now they all want to put 3600 RPM engines in all the small diesel generator packages. No thanks.

[Hitch]

We have a piece of equipment at work with Cat 3508 diesels, over 25,000 hours on them. I don't even need to add oil to them. They fire up every time. The number of recommended hours on a diesel is very conservative. We have northern lights gensets, cummins engines, running great at 15,000 plus hours on them. You'd think they were new. A good diesel running at a constant rpm, low rpm 1800 or less, seems to just last forever.

[monty]

About 30% less power from same displacement gasoline engine. I have. Propane, being a gas, displaces air in the intake manifold whereas gasoline only occupies a small space. You have to deal with gas pressure issues too. Most people don't know what 8 ounces per square inch means, don't have the means to measure it. Then you have freezing problems at pressure drop and the possibility of gas leaking past the regulator. I only run non ethanol gas, so no storage issues. More container weight per hour of run time.

I worked on natural gas powered engines in the oilfield for 15 years so I understand the advantages. We had some 1197 Waukeshas that had 60,000 hours on the bottom end.....but they ran 900 RPM. Like propane, natural gas is slow burning fuel and even advancing the timing to 30 degrees BTDC is not enough, you have to slow that baby down. Some of our natural gas engines ran 285 RPM
constantly.
Also, propane eats up valve seats much faster than gasoline.

Gasoline is the ideal fuel for high RPM engines.


Stellite exhaust valves and hardened steel valves seats are a must in propane engines.

[ImaCannin]

Thanks everyone for your input. You all brought up some things to think about. However, I have a propane tank, can easily store enough to get me through a SHTF situation. I don’t have a gas or diesel tank. I can hide a propane tank in the ground and it would be harder for joe blow to steal a few gallons here or there. So I am back to my original question.... I am off grid now, I have propane dryer, stove, refrigerator, and working on a propane freezer. At the current time, I run a Honda 3000 gas generator twice a day for any power I need , including my AC freezers. I bought a LP conversation kit for the Honda but have not installed it yet. I think we are using about 5 gallons of gas a week . I wanted to get a back up to my Honda 3000, which was the reason for this post. I was thinking of a smaller whole house generator in propane, but don’t have a clue on which one to look at, or I could buy a second Honda , put a conversion kit on it and have my back up. We originally planned on solar, but we keep getting dinked around and I fear that we won’t have enough time to get it up and running before it’s too late. We have been waiting a month for our deep cell batteries to come in. We are living on minimal power right now.

OR do you have any other thoughts?

Thanks again....

[ziero0]

The Amish are doing interesting things with compressed air. They even run piston driven submersible pumps on it all courtesy of wind driven compressors feeding 1000 gallon lp tanks.

[hoarder]

We have a piece of equipment at work with Cat 3508 diesels, over 25,000 hours on them. I don't even need to add oil to them. They fire up every time. The number of recommended hours on a diesel is very conservative. We have northern lights gensets, cummins engines, running great at 15,000 plus hours on them. You'd think they were new. A good diesel running at a constant rpm, low rpm 1800 or less, seems to just last forever.All of those engines are way beyond the (up to) 20 KW range that you find on generators powering homesteads.

[hoarder]

Thanks everyone for your input. You all brought up some things to think about. However, I have a propane tank, can easily store enough to get me through a SHTF situation. I don’t have a gas or diesel tank. I can hide a propane tank in the ground and it would be harder for joe blow to steal a few gallons here or there. So I am back to my original question.... I am off grid now, I have propane dryer, stove, refrigerator, and working on a propane freezer. At the current time, I run a Honda 3000 gas generator twice a day for any power I need , including my AC freezers. I bought a LP conversation kit for the Honda but have not installed it yet. I think we are using about 5 gallons of gas a week . I wanted to get a back up to my Honda 3000, which was the reason for this post. I was thinking of a smaller whole house generator in propane, but don’t have a clue on which one to look at, or I could buy a second Honda , put a conversion kit on it and have my back up. We originally planned on solar, but we keep getting dinked around and I fear that we won’t have enough time to get it up and running before it’s too late. We have been waiting a month for our deep cell batteries to come in. We are living on minimal power right now.

OR do you have any other thoughts?

Thanks again....Honda engines can be converted to propane. Last I heard, Honda will void the warranty if you do, which is no big deal. A larger Honda might be your best bet. Should last at least 3-4000 hours on propane, my guess. If a gasoline generator is rated 10 KW, the engine may only be able to carry 7 KW on propane.

[woodman]

Honda engines can be converted to propane. Last I heard, Honda will void the warranty if you do, which is no big deal. A larger Honda might be your best bet. Should last at least 3-4000 hours on propane, my guess. If a gasoline generator is rated 10 KW, the engine may only be able to carry 7 KW on propane.
Personally, I abandoned the idea of a whole house generator due to the cost of fuel and expense outlay ($11,000 for a 14 kw Kohler and installation). I will sacrifice ease of use and power output for low cost and overall sustainability coupled with the benefit of using the cheap generators I already have. I think you can get a solar installation for around $22,000 but surely you could do it cheaper yourself if capable. Hoarder could chime in here as I believe he is mainly solar.

[hoarder]

Personally, I abandoned the idea of a whole house generator due to the cost of fuel and expense outlay ($11,000 for a 14 kw Kohler and installation). I will sacrifice ease of use and power output for low cost and overall sustainability coupled with the benefit of using the cheap generators I already have. I think you can get a solar installation for around $22,000 but surely you could do it cheaper yourself if capable. Hoarder could chime in here as I believe he is mainly solar.I've been on solar alone for over 10 years, but I know little about grid intertie systems. Doing the work myself, my system cost around 10K. I fabricated the brackets and mounted the panels on my roof. The installation is quite expensive if you hire it out and generally speaking, grid intertie systems take 20 years to pay for themselves.

Using a small generator to power part of a house is feasible, just watch your voltage and don't overload. You must have some kind of transfer switch or some way to isolate yourself from the grid so you don't backfeed the grid.

[woodman]

I've been on solar alone for over 10 years, but I know little about grid intertie systems. Doing the work myself, my system cost around 10K. I fabricated the brackets and mounted the panels on my roof. The installation is quite expensive if you hire it out and generally speaking, grid intertie systems take 20 years to pay for themselves.

Using a small generator to power part of a house is feasible, just watch your voltage and don't overload. You must have some kind of transfer switch or some way to isolate yourself from the grid so you don't backfeed the grid.
I made a cord out of 10 gauge 4 wire cable with two male ends. Dangerous but only if you don’t hook it up in proper order. I have to switch breakers on and off manually also.

I positioned my post frame shop as you advised but have not gotten around to the solar yet.

[hoarder]

I made a cord out of 10 gauge 4 wire cable with two male ends. Dangerous but only if you don’t hook it up in proper order. I have to switch breakers on and off manually also.

I positioned my post frame shop as you advised but have not gotten around to the solar yet.10 gauge would only carry about a 3 KW generator. Fridge, freezer, computer and a few lights. I assume you're opening the main breaker and plugging one end of the cord into a wall outlet. Not only is it important never to have the main closed with generator running, but never leave the generator (running or not) plugged in when you close the breaker, as the generator may be damaged.

[hoarder]

Honda engines can be converted to propane. Last I heard, Honda will void the warranty if you do, which is no big deal. A larger Honda might be your best bet. Should last at least 3-4000 hours on propane, my guess. If a gasoline generator is rated 10 KW, the engine may only be able to carry 7 KW on propane.One thing about Honda generators....they are a big disappointment in cold weather below 25 degrees F.

[ziero0]

One thing about Honda generators....they are a big disappointment in cold weather below 25 degrees F.

At that temperature most things are downright discouraging. It has even been known to freeze lutefisk!

[woodman]

10 gauge would only carry about a 3 KW generator. Fridge, freezer, computer and a few lights. I assume you're opening the main breaker and plugging one end of the cord into a wall outlet. Not only is it important never to have the main closed with generator running, but never leave the generator (running or not) plugged in when you close the breaker, as the generator may be damaged.
It may be 8 gauge because I use it for 220. It is what I used for my sanding equipment, so it can carry quite a bit of juice. I purchased a 100 watt solar panel from Harbor Freight for about $150 but haven't got around to hooking it up yet. I wonder what the best way to bone up on solar is. I guess I'll have to check out some reading materials. I have an electric golf cart that has six beefy batteries; it would be nice to be able to tie into that when needed. It would also be nice to have some type of generator that ran off the power from my diesel truck.

[hoarder]

It may be 8 gauge because I use it for 220. It is what I used for my sanding equipment, so it can carry quite a bit of juice. I purchased a 100 watt solar panel from Harbor Freight for about $150 but haven't got around to hooking it up yet. I wonder what the best way to bone up on solar is. I guess I'll have to check out some reading materials. I have an electric golf cart that has six beefy batteries; it would be nice to be able to tie into that when needed. It would also be nice to have some type of generator that ran off the power from my diesel truck.Dunno about harbor freight, but most solar panels they make nowadays require MPPT charge controllers (more expensive). Old style panels for 12 volt systems use very basic controllers you can find used on ebay. Smaller systems do not even require a controller. I have a couple panels that I put alligator clips on and use them as portable battery chargers.

[Bigjon]

At that temperature most things are downright discouraging. It has even been known to freeze lutefisk!

Just put it in a pan of lye water and it will be fine. Bring back the smell we all love to hate.

[Hitch]

I just purchased a Victron MPPT smart solar charge controller. It's rated for up to 100 volts, 50 amps. I plan on getting two 320 watt 24 volt panels to start, running them in series, so the amps should be around 14 or so for 48 volts. The MPPT will reduce the charge to charge up a 12 volt battery system. A 2000 watt inverter will power the 110 stuff. I have room to add another 640 watts of solar if needed, but plan on seeing how well the 2 320 watt panels will do.

The controller is Bluetooth compatible with bulk/absortion/float settings all programmable. This is a fun project for me, and a big learning experience.

[ziero0]

14 amps feeding 12 volts is 168 watts. If you want the full watt rating of both panels feed them into three 12 batteries in series. I would say four (for 48 volts) but then you would only charge during the brightest parts of the day.

[Hitch]

14 amps feeding 12 volts is 168 watts. If you want the full watt rating of both panels feed them into three 12 batteries in series. I would say four (for 48 volts) but then you would only charge during the brightest parts of the day.

I have a 12 volt system. The 14 amps is delivered at 48 volts, so the "smart controller" should charge the batteries at over 50 amps (12 volt) conversion during the brightest part of the day. The panels are 640 watts, not 168 watts. Amps times volts is watts.

[midnight rambler]

Amps to volts is watts.

Huh??

Volts times amps = watts

[Hitch]

Huh??

Volts times amps = watts

OK, I changed my post, but you all know what I meant anyway.

[midnight rambler]

OK, I changed my post, but you all know what I meant anyway.

No, we didn't.

[Hitch]

No, we didn't.

You should have!

[ziero0]

Say you had a 100 volt panel rated 300 watts. It is capable of 3 amps. If you tie it to a 10 volt battery it isn't magically put out 30 amps to make the watts stay the same. It is going to put out 3 amps into a 10 volt system to make it a 30 watt panel. You get the most power out of the panel only at the highest voltage. You only get the highest voltage on the sunny days.

Charge controllers don't amplify current. They monitor the battery voltage they are set to and disconnect the solar when the battery is charged.

A Thevanin equivalent is modeled by replacing a real supply by it's open circuit voltage and internal resistance. A Norton equivalent models a supply as a current source in parallel with a resistor. Think of a solar panel as it's Norton equivalent. Open circuit the current flows thru the parallel resistor to create the rated voltage of the panel. Now connect a real battery across the solar panel and the current source charges the battery but at a lower voltage than the panel rating.

[skid]

About 30% less power from same displacement gasoline engine. I have. Propane, being a gas, displaces air in the intake manifold whereas gasoline only occupies a small space. You have to deal with gas pressure issues too. Most people don't know what 8 ounces per square inch means, don't have the means to measure it. Then you have freezing problems at pressure drop and the possibility of gas leaking past the regulator. I only run non ethanol gas, so no storage issues. More container weight per hour of run time.

I worked on natural gas powered engines in the oilfield for 15 years so I understand the advantages. We had some 1197 Waukeshas that had 60,000 hours on the bottom end.....but they ran 900 RPM. Like propane, natural gas is slow burning fuel and even advancing the timing to 30 degrees BTDC is not enough, you have to slow that baby down. Some of our natural gas engines ran 285 RPM constantly.
Also, propane eats up valve seats much faster than gasoline.

Gasoline is the ideal fuel for high RPM engines.

I worked in the natural gas pipeline industry as well. Most modern compressor packages were jet engine powered, but we had some old 300 RPM Dresser Clark 10 and 16 cylinder natural gas powered engines driving 5 & 8 double acting compressor cylinders respectively. They've run steady since the 1960's with an overhaul every 5 years or so.. I hated working on those massive giants; I could stand in the cylinder bores with the sleeves removed, and the lightest tools weighed 100 pounds or more. 5 of these running under 1 roof in the summer made it pretty hot in there, especially when hammering up the crosshead - compressor piston shaft nut with a big sledge hammer. We finally went to supernuts on those..

Back to propane - Sounds like I'm a Cannin already has propane for other uses so it makes sense for her to go with a propane generator. Since she already has a honda generator she can get a propane conversion kit for it and be good to go with either propane or gasoline.

[JDRock]

people are getting edgy about this subject! I was looking at generators today and honda looked like the best, BUT , im way up almost to 7k elevation so it gets cold... well at least this generated alot of interest er err errr

[hoarder]

people are getting edgy about this subject! I was looking at generators today and honda looked like the best, BUT , im way up almost to 7k elevation so it gets cold... well at least this generated alot of interest er err errrIf you get a little "suitcase Honda generator" at least you can carry it indoors and warm it up before starting. Once you get them running they're usually OK in cold weather.

[ImaCannin]

You have to be careful with new generators as they are going WiFi..... which means they can be shut off when ever wanted by someone other than your self.

Honda still has a few of the non WiFi out there..

We sit The Honda 3000 that I have on a little 4 wheel dolly and can move it around freely. It’s by the back door and we can easily move it in and out in cold weather.

[boogietillyapuke]

I put a Generac 22kw in that runs on NG a year ago. If it needs to run, I'll pay the bill. Guess what paid for it. Yup, gold and silver that was bought back in the 7.50/350 time frame.

[JDRock]

I have heard ALOT of complaints about generac being cheap chinese sh!t. I prefer the japs over the chinks.

[hoarder]

I have heard ALOT of complaints about generac being cheap chinese sh!t. I prefer the japs over the chinks.They are cheap. I have a couple hundred hours on mine, it's the 8KW with EFI. They're a little better than most Chinese generators though and it starts on cold weather every time (after replacing the tiny battery it came with) and sure maintains RPM well. A 7KW Honda costs at least 5 times as much and still won't start in cold weather, but will last many thousand hours.

[JDRock]

Good to know, mine would only be for emergencies like, to keep my meat freezer cold in case of a summer disruption, or have a light or two on in a winter event. I heat with wood , so no crazy need there.

[JDRock]

They are cheap. I have a couple hundred hours on mine, it's the 8KW with EFI. They're a little better than most Chinese generators though and it starts on cold weather every time (after replacing the tiny battery it came with) and sure maintains RPM well. A 7KW Honda costs at least 5 times as much and still won't start in cold weather, but will last many thousand hours.
Efi prolly makes a difference as 100% of generac were fuel leakage

[monty]

Do any of you know anything about the Champion 12000 wat unit.

https://www.championpowerequipment.com/product/100111-12000-watt-generator/

[hoarder]

It's just a little Chineezer than a Generac.

[Hitch]

Do any of you know anything about the Champion 12000 wat unit.

https://www.championpowerequipment.com/product/100111-12000-watt-generator/

I don't like that it burns about a gallon of gas an hour. It can't be a long term solution to power if the grid goes down.

[boogietillyapuke]

As a side note: yup, glad I invested in the little fu@#er, been on gen power twice since approximately 4am. Just like the commercial, got lights, tv, internet, dryer drying wet towels, etc, etc.