Jesus vs Paul

[philo beddoe]

Jesus vs Paul
Is there a big difference between Pauls words and that of Jesus? It seems protestants believe in the whole book of Romans/Paul ideology more than Jesus.

[LuckyStrike]

People like to misinterpret or mistranslate Paul's writing. The short of it is, even if Paul did teach a different doctrine (which IMO he did not) who the hell is he to contradict Jesus?

[JJ.G0ldD0t]

Jesus vs Paul
Is there a big difference between Pauls words and that of Jesus? It seems protestants believe in the whole book of Romans/Paul ideology more than Jesus.


Can you cite an example for us to work with?

[SPQR]

Paul said:

If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

(1 Corinthians 14:37)

[30pcsAg]

Jesus vs Paul
Is there a big difference between Pauls words and that of Jesus? It seems protestants believe in the whole book of Romans/Paul ideology more than Jesus.


Can you cite an example for us to work with?



Yes please. I am not familiar with a different doctorine taught by Paul. A large part of the New Testament is attributed to Paul.

[WebTech]

Paul said:

If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

(1 Corinthians 14:37)


Out of context, but, Christ was the Son of God in the Gospels. Not the son of man. So he wasn't considered a man.

[LuckyStrike]

Yes please. I am not familiar with a different doctorine taught by Paul. A large part of the New Testament is attributed to Paul.


Therein lies the rub I believe (not sure if this is what OP meant) many modern "judeo christians" seem to forget or downplay the message of the old testament and try to act like the New Testament and Jesus's coming did away with the old law which of course is in direct disagreement of Yahsua's own words.

Matthew 5
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

[30pcsAg]

NB, The “old law” is still and forever will be valid, but believing in Christ overcomes the condemnation manifested by the law. Christ took the judgment of my transgressions upon Him and paid my debt for me. So now that my debt is paid, should I show him gratitude by continuing to break the law or should I change my ways and strive to be “perfect” as He says, like my Father in heaven? Since I am flesh and blood I still fail the test of the law, but even if I am the least in the kingdom of heaven I want to try to reach that perfection. I try to use the Law to temper my heart.

Maybe I am off base, but I think Judeo-Christians believe the Old Testament to be most important and continually try to push the letter of the Law. They identify themselves strongly with Jews, and probably many wish deep down they were Jews which is one reason so many tend to be Zionist. They often punctuate that “Jews are God’s Chosen People”

Mathew wrote especially to reach the Jews and articulates that Christ is the Messiah they had been waiting for.

I believe to understand Jesus’ intent in the verses you quoted it is important to read the entire passage which is 3 chapters long. The first of the verses you quoted is of particular importance to those He (and Mathew) was speaking to:


17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The verses leading up to these are giving hope:


Mathew 5

1And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

2And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

3Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

5Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

6Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

7Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

8Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

9Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

10Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

13Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

14Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

15Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Then there are the verses quoted:


17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Then He explains the Spirit of the Law because the letter of the Law is often misunderstood:


20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

24Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

25Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

26Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

In chapters 6 and 7 He gives examples how they/I can strive to be “perfect”:


Matthew 6

1Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11Give us this day our daily bread.

12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

16Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

17But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;

18That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

19Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

22The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

23But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

24No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

25Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

26Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

27Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

28And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

29And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

30Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

31Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

34Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Matthew 7

1Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

12Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Side note: In the Gospel according to Mark chapter 12 verses 28-34 He is approached by a scribe with an open heart about the Law:


28And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

32And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

33And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

34And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

If you want to understand what I believe that He meant by love your God and love your neighbor, go back and read Mathew Chapters 5,6,7 above.

[30pcsAg]

Yet I will point out that I believe the law is not the key to the kingdom.


Matthew 11

1And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.

2Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,

3And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

4Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:

5The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

6And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

7And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?

8But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.

9But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.

10For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

11Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

12And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

13For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

14And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

15He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. [b]



[b]John 3

1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

22After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

Here Paul writes to the church in Rome:


Romans 10

1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

19But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

20But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

21But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

[Spectrism]

Paul said:

If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

(1 Corinthians 14:37)


Out of context, but, Christ was the Son of God in the Gospels. Not the son of man. So he wasn't considered a man.



Not correct. The Messiah referred to Himself as "the son of man" making it clear that He became man and dwellt among men. When you say "the gospels" this typically refers to the 4- Matthew, Mark, Luke, John. They are one gospel... the news of the Savior. The voice from heaven at the transfiguration proclaimed that He was the Son of God. The Messiah also declared that He and the Father are one.

Back to the topic- Paul was one who really understood the gospel of grace. Having been a pharisee and zealously seeking to do the works of the Jewish cult of the time, he saw that works did not earn salvation. This revelation carried through in his teachings.

[illumin19]

Jesus vs Paul
Is there a big difference between Pauls words and that of Jesus? It seems protestants believe in the whole book of Romans/Paul ideology more than Jesus.


I'll tell you the truth..........

Jesus (alay hi wasallam) was a great man, prophet and Messiah of his people. His words were the words of Allah (Subhanallah) which cannot be deception because he is "divinely guided".

If you are not a prophet.......well you are not on the level of a prophet, PERIOD.
Follow the prophets.

[Spectrism]

Jesus vs Paul
Is there a big difference between Pauls words and that of Jesus? It seems protestants believe in the whole book of Romans/Paul ideology more than Jesus.


I'll tell you the truth..........

Jesus (alay hi wasallam) was a great man, prophet and Messiah of his people. His words were the words of Allah (Subhanallah) which cannot be deception because he is "divinely guided".

If you are not a prophet.......well you are not on the level of a prophet, PERIOD.
Follow the prophets.


Sorry to break the news to you illumin19, but if Jesus was a great man, prophet & Messiah, then Allah is a false god. The Father of Jesus is YHWH, not Allah. Allah was ascribed to by Mohammad much later, as Mohammad developed his following and needed a new god to rally around.

Yahshuah (Jesus) made it clear that others who claimed to be prophets with false gospels would come. Islam is such a false gospel, demanding works as if they could impress a perfect God.

[illumin19]

I'll tell you the truth..........

Jesus (alay hi wasallam) was a great man, prophet and Messiah of his people. His words were the words of Allah (Subhanallah) which cannot be deception because he is "divinely guided".

If you are not a prophet.......well you are not on the level of a prophet, PERIOD.
Follow the prophets.


Sorry to break the news to you illumin19, but if Jesus was a great man, prophet & Messiah, then Allah is a false god. The Father of Jesus is YHWH, not Allah. Allah was ascribed to by Mohammad much later, as Mohammad developed his following and needed a new god to rally around.

Yahshuah (Jesus) made it clear that others who claimed to be prophets with false gospels would come. Islam is such a false gospel, demanding works as if they could impress a perfect God.


Greetings Spectrism,

First off, I don't want this to be an insult match ok. :)

Second, tell me where I'm wrong in my 1st sentence? ???

Third, Muhammad (sallahu allayhi wa sallam) was still expected by the "Jews" at the time of Isa Al- Masih (Alayhi asallam) in the form of "a/the Prophet"......

This is all in the Bible.

Lastly, my sig is just one of the prophecies of Muhammad's (sallahu alayhi wassalam) advent.
I wonder why you don't hold Paul to the same standard??? Where's he prophecied?

[Spectrism]

First, are you the same guy from GIM who kept spamming about the wonders of the Koran?









I'll tell you the truth..........

Jesus (alay hi wasallam) was a great man, prophet and Messiah of his people. His words were the words of Allah (Subhanallah) which cannot be deception because he is "divinely guided".

If you are not a prophet.......well you are not on the level of a prophet, PERIOD.
Follow the prophets.


Sorry to break the news to you illumin19, but if Jesus was a great man, prophet & Messiah, then Allah is a false god. The Father of Jesus is YHWH, not Allah. Allah was ascribed to by Mohammad much later, as Mohammad developed his following and needed a new god to rally around.

Yahshuah (Jesus) made it clear that others who claimed to be prophets with false gospels would come. Islam is such a false gospel, demanding works as if they could impress a perfect God.


Greetings Spectrism,

First off, I don't want this to be an insult match ok. :)

Second, tell me where I'm wrong in my 1st sentence? ???

Third, Muhammad (sallahu allayhi wa sallam) was still expected by the "Jews" at the time of Isa Al- Masih (Alayhi asallam) in the form of "a/the Prophet"......

This is all in the Bible.

Lastly, my sig is just one of the prophecies of Muhammad's (sallahu alayhi wassalam) advent.
I wonder why you don't hold Paul to the same standard??? Where's he prophecied?



Your first sentence says nothing…. That is your first mistake. If you are referring to the words of ALlah... then that is a gross error as Yahshuah did not speak the words of ALlah. Allah is not the God of Israel.

Next, since Muhammad “was still expected by the Jews”, we all see how true that was. (not)

What’s with the “sallahu allayhi wa sallam”? Is this your new face for “pbuh”?

Muhammad was a pirate, murderer, looting scumbag. No comparison and not even negotiable as a “prophet”. Paul never came out with a new doctrine of lies as Muhammad did. Paul surrendered his life for others whereas Muhammad murdered others for his own benefit.

301 was it? Is that who you are?

[illumin19]

Your first sentence says nothing…. That is your first mistake. If you are referring to the words of ALlah... then that is a gross error as Yahshuah did not speak the words of ALlah. Allah is not the God of Israel.
Next, since Muhammad “was still expected by the Jews”, we all see how true that was. (not)
What’s with the “sallahu allayhi wa sallam”? Is this your new face for “pbuh”?
Muhammad was a pirate, murderer, looting scumbag. No comparison and not even negotiable as a “prophet”. Paul never came out with a new doctrine of lies as Muhammad did. Paul surrendered his life for others whereas Muhammad murdered others for his own benefit.

301 was it? Is that who you are?



Calm down now,
do you remember when I first responded to you? I said I didn't want this to get into an insulting match?

I don't mind conversation on matters like these as long as the other person can keep their cool and be respectful.
Afterall, you did adress me first.

It is true Muhammad (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) was mentioned and described in the Bible. I'm sorry if you don't want to hear it or see it. Is it really that impossible? He is a descendant of Abraham (alayhis sallam) who were blessed by Allah according to Genesis correct? Also Ishmael (alayhis salam) was a prophet according to Genesis also. Soooooooo, if you'd like to tear out those chapters in the Bible because it pains you to read them be my guest.

Oh, and if you want to pull your hair out about Muhammad's (sallallahu alayhi wa salam) victory, which is really Allah's (Subhanahu wa ta'ala) victory, i'll finish off my sig for you right here with the 13th verse of Isaiah (alayhis salam):

The LORD shall go forth like a mighty man;
He shall stir up his zeal like a man of WAR.
He shall cry out, yes shout aloud;
HE SHALL PREVAIL AGAINST HIS ENEMIES.

So read my sig again, it's beautiful.

[Awoke]

I don't regard the apostles as prophets, but as teachers.
They learned from the master of love, or Lord Jesus Christ. They passed on his message. They were not diviners.

[Spectrism]

Your first sentence says nothing…. That is your first mistake. If you are referring to the words of ALlah... then that is a gross error as Yahshuah did not speak the words of ALlah. Allah is not the God of Israel.
Next, since Muhammad “was still expected by the Jews”, we all see how true that was. (not)
What’s with the “sallahu allayhi wa sallam”? Is this your new face for “pbuh”?
Muhammad was a pirate, murderer, looting scumbag. No comparison and not even negotiable as a “prophet”. Paul never came out with a new doctrine of lies as Muhammad did. Paul surrendered his life for others whereas Muhammad murdered others for his own benefit.

301 was it? Is that who you are?



Calm down now,
do you remember when I first responded to you? I said I didn't want this to get into an insulting match?

I don't mind conversation on matters like these as long as the other person can keep their cool and be respectful.
Afterall, you did adress me first.

It is true Muhammad (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) was mentioned and described in the Bible. I'm sorry if you don't want to hear it or see it. Is it really that impossible? He is a descendant of Abraham (alayhis sallam) who were blessed by Allah according to Genesis correct? Also Ishmael (alayhis salam) was a prophet according to Genesis also. Soooooooo, if you'd like to tear out those chapters in the Bible because it pains you to read them be my guest.

Oh, and if you want to pull your hair out about Muhammad's (sallallahu alayhi wa salam) victory, which is really Allah's (Subhanahu wa ta'ala) victory, i'll finish off my sig for you right here with the 13th verse of Isaiah (alayhis salam):

The LORD shall go forth like a mighty man;
He shall stir up his zeal like a man of WAR.
He shall cry out, yes shout aloud;
HE SHALL PREVAIL AGAINST HIS ENEMIES.

So read my sig again, it's beautiful.



Calm down? I am calm. Trust me… who wouldn’t like me when I am upset. Chuckle.

Insulting match? Heck no! Where did I insult you? I only asked direct questions and you dodge them. You ARE 301ouncers, aren’t you? I know your tricks. You invent “truths” and change history to YOURstory. Holding you accountable may be painful but if you want to spread lies and disinformation, that is your choice.

Show me the verse in the bible that mentions Muhammad…. Who wasn’t even born until hundreds of years later.

Please explain this punctuation: “sallallahu alayhi wa sallam”. Rather cumbersome to have to punctuate every name with this. In GIM you got lazy and used “pbuh” meaning “peace be upon him”. Same thing?

Ishmael was NOT a prophet but the fleshly child of Abraham and Hagar. Hagar was the servant and not the mother of promise. It is clear here:
Gen 21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
Gen 21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
Gen 21:11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
Gen 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Genesis 25 also makes it clear that the inheritence was given by Abraham to Isaac.


Your sig has nothing of weight. The “LORD” is the way the NAME of YHWH was written. YHWH is NOT Allah. Not even close.

[301ouncer]

Insulting match? Heck no! Where did I insult you? I only asked direct questions and you dodge them. You ARE 301ouncers, aren’t you? I know your tricks. You invent “truths” and change history to YOURstory. Holding you accountable may be painful but if you want to spread lies and disinformation, that is your choice.
[/quote]

No illumanti is a catholic revert to islam and I am a born muslim. I have different IP then my beloved brother illumanti. Please I ask you to stop twisting and turning as sufies do and be kind to stick to the topic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqMxzOoGqqc&playnext_from=TL&videos=XWUVr_vVElA

And here Muhammed pbuh in the OT for your pondering and contemplation my friend:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm3sZfPwv1g&feature=player_embedded

when rebuttling to illuminati please do it in a respectable manner as my brother illumianti is doing. this is the least you could do to bridge the gap in understanding each other.

Thank you for welcoming your new nightmare.

[Spectrism]

No illumanti is a catholic revert to islam and I am a born muslim. I have different IP then my beloved brother illumanti. Please I ask you to stop twisting and turning as sufies do and be kind to stick to the topic:

when rebuttling to illuminati please do it in a respectable manner as my brother illumianti is doing. this is the least you could do to bridge the gap in understanding each other.

Thank you for welcoming your new nightmare.



Ahh... here is the troll. LOL... illumi9 must have been the little coat-hanger who came into the " love Mohammed" threads at GIM.

I have been nothing but respectable. When I see someone spout off the lies of a murdering pirate (Mohammad) as if it is a viable source, I just reply with the truth.

Welcoming my nightmare? If you are calling yourself "my nightmare" it is you who are dreaming. I saw your posts at the GIM2 forum and was glad you were spamming someplace else. Frankly, I was surprised any moderators put up with your spamming... but no big deal.


As for twisting & turning... name ONE thing I twisted or turned.

[RJB]

The Book of Romans makes perfect sense to me sense if taken in the context of the gospels.


Jesus vs Paul
Is there a big difference between Pauls words and that of Jesus? It seems protestants believe in the whole book of Romans/Paul ideology more than Jesus.

[301ouncer]

Jesus claimed to be son of God. Yet Islam says Allah has no son.
Jesus claimed to come to die for our sins. Yet Islam teaches Jesus did not die on the cross, somebody else died instead of him.

Will open a thread for brother illuminati and I to explain it to you in details.

From one side of your mouth you say here, "Jesus is a great man" while from the other you accuse Jesus to be worst lier and deceiver ever lived.

If you really believe "Jesus is a great man" why don't you believe Him saying He is God?

Will open a thread for brother illuminati and I to explain it to you in details.

If Jesus's words "cannot be deception" why then you believe Jesus is a lier?

Will open a thread for brother illuminati and I to explain it to you in details.

[RJB]

Will open a thread to explain it to you in details.
I'm sure you will...

[301ouncer]

No need to be worried I will not attack christianity as it not befitting of a muslim to take such avenues.

I will explain it from the islamic teachings and believe prespective. As we also belive Jesus pbuh to be our messenger therefore IT NOT AN ATTACK AS SUCH. As in any attack on such a mighty and noble personality is one way ticket to CURSE kingdom of the CURSERS. :)

[7th trump]

Jesus claimed to be son of God. Yet Islam says Allah has no son.
Jesus claimed to come to die for our sins. Yet Islam teaches Jesus did not die on the cross, somebody else died instead of him.

Will open a thread for brother illuminati and I to explain it to you in details.

From one side of your mouth you say here, "Jesus is a great man" while from the other you accuse Jesus to be worst lier and deceiver ever lived.

If you really believe "Jesus is a great man" why don't you believe Him saying He is God?

Will open a thread for brother illuminati and I to explain it to you in details.

If Jesus's words "cannot be deception" why then you believe Jesus is a lier?

Will open a thread for brother illuminati and I to explain it to you in details.

Well the hidden deception comes to light now isnt it.
I've been waiting for you to pull the switch after baiting over at GIM1 and now here.
All the way up until now you've been saying this Jesus pudh thingy like you beleive in HIM, but now you are telling everyone reading this section that the Muslim faith doesnt beleive in God having a Son.
Beings you are muslim you do not beleive that Jesus is the SON or Emanuelle (God with us).
There are rules for baiting people on the forum 301. I'd advise you to follow the rules.
And yes I'm reporting you to the mods

[illumin19]

Ishmael was NOT a prophet but the fleshly child of Abraham and Hagar.

Your sig has nothing of weight. The “LORD” is the way the NAME of YHWH was written. YHWH is NOT Allah. Not even close.



Common speak from lies of the shaitans.

Follow me closely.....

Genesis 21:17
God heard the voice of the lad......Fear not God has heard the voice of the lad where he is.
verse 18
ARise, lift up the lad....I WILL MAKE HIM A GREAT NATION. (Would God say that about an Idolatorous nation? :o )
verse 20
SO GOD WAS WITH THE LAD; ( WOW WHAT DOES WITH HIM MEAN?)

Now that it's established from fact on the planet that the Ishmaelites are indeed a great nation in numbers as well as praising God......(irrefutable!)
I hope you'll be able to take in the evidence I will present from the BIble, Inshallah. I'm quoting the Bible alot to show you the book only you read from. I haven't even quoted the GLORIOUS QUR'AN.
As you might already know, as a Muslim the Qur'an is to us the GUARDIAN of past scripture, meaning it contains the truth of the past.

So now on to what "GOD WAS WITH HIM" means in the context of the Bible.

Genesis 39:2
THe LORD was with Joseph.......(Joseph [alayhis salam], a Prophet)
1 Samuel 18:14
And David behaved wisely in all his ways, and the LORD was with him.(David [alayhis salam], a Prophet)
2 Chronicles 1:1
Now Solomon the son of David was strengthened in his kingdom, and the LORD was with him and exalted him exceedingly. (Solomon [alayhis salam], a Prophet)
1 Samuel 3:19
So Samuel grew and the LORD was with him.........
Verse 20 (Explaining it plainly if you haven't put it together yet)
All Israel from DAn to Beesheba knew the Samuel had BEEN ESTABLISHED AS A PROPHET OF THE LORD.
I'll even give you one from the man you take as a Prophet, Paul. (An "apostle" who wasn't present with Jesus [alayhis salam])
Acts 10:38
God anointed Jesus.........for God was with him. (Jesus [alayhis salam], a Prophet, Messiah)

I've plainly shown you the context the Bible uses when using the term "God was with him".

I haven't made cheap little insults to you or anything of that nature yet I wonder why you continue to spew them out your mouth?
I will no longer give examples in this thread as it is way off course. I'm sure brother 301 will start one and get "smited" all the way and the same for me as well. The truth is never accepted easily though.



Oh yeah, my SIG refers to KEDAR. Who is/was Kedar? ISHMAELS 2nd Son, NOT AN ISRAELITE! SAY IT ISN'T SO!! :-X

[7th trump]

Ishmael was NOT a prophet but the fleshly child of Abraham and Hagar.

Your sig has nothing of weight. The “LORD” is the way the NAME of YHWH was written. YHWH is NOT Allah. Not even close.



Common speak from lies of the shaitans.

Follow me closely.....

Genesis 21:17
God heard the voice of the lad......Fear not God has heard the voice of the lad where he is.
verse 18
ARise, lift up the lad....I WILL MAKE HIM A GREAT NATION. (Would God say that about an Idolatorous nation? :o )
verse 20
SO GOD WAS WITH THE LAD; ( WOW WHAT DOES WITH HIM MEAN?)

Now that it's established from fact on the planet that the Ishmaelites are indeed a great nation in numbers as well as praising God......(irrefutable!)
I hope you'll be able to take in the evidence I will present from the BIble, Inshallah. I'm quoting the Bible alot to show you the book only you read from. I haven't even quoted the GLORIOUS QUR'AN.
As you might already know, as a Muslim the Qur'an is to us the GUARDIAN of past scripture, meaning it contains the truth of the past.

So now on to what "GOD WAS WITH HIM" means in the context of the Bible.

Genesis 39:2
THe LORD was with Joseph.......(Joseph [alayhis salam], a Prophet)
1 Samuel 18:14
And David behaved wisely in all his ways, and the LORD was with him.(David [alayhis salam], a Prophet)
2 Chronicles 1:1
Now Solomon the son of David was strengthened in his kingdom, and the LORD was with him and exalted him exceedingly. (Solomon [alayhis salam], a Prophet)
1 Samuel 3:19
So Samuel grew and the LORD was with him.........
Verse 20 (Explaining it plainly if you haven't put it together yet)
All Israel from DAn to Beesheba knew the Samuel had BEEN ESTABLISHED AS A PROPHET OF THE LORD.
I'll even give you one from the man you take as a Prophet, Paul. (An "apostle" who wasn't present with Jesus [alayhis salam])
Acts 10:38
God anointed Jesus.........for God was with him. (Jesus [alayhis salam], a Prophet, Messiah)

I've plainly shown you the context the Bible uses when using the term "God was with him".

I haven't made cheap little insults to you or anything of that nature yet I wonder why you continue to spew them out your mouth?
I will no longer give examples in this thread as it is way off course. I'm sure brother 301 will start one and get "smited" all the way and the same for me as well. The truth is never accepted easily though.



Oh yeah, my SIG refers to KEDAR. Who is/was Kedar? ISHMAELS 2nd Son, NOT AN ISRAELITE! SAY IT ISN'T SO!! :-X


Umm..................God never made Jesus a great nation.
God, if my memory serves me right, said Jacob would become great and many nations.
How many muslim nations do you know that are great and many that havent been taking over other preexisting great and many nations that trump all other muslim nations?
Who went over the Caucaucian mountains? It wasnt any muslims that for sure. Muslims didnt migrate of any mountains to populate what are now England, Germany, France, Scottland, Belgium, Netherlands, Russia, America, Canada, Australia, Poland, Wales (who still speak perfect Hebrew in remote places), and other white anglo-saxon countries.
The truth really is hard to take when it smacks you right up against the face.
Being a white caucausion is testiment that the Bible is true..........................not the quran.

[Spectrism]

Ishmael was NOT a prophet but the fleshly child of Abraham and Hagar.

Your sig has nothing of weight. The “LORD” is the way the NAME of YHWH was written. YHWH is NOT Allah. Not even close.



Common speak from lies of the shaitans.

Errr... uh...shaitans?? Satans? Which?




Follow me closely.....

Genesis 21:17
God heard the voice of the lad......Fear not God has heard the voice of the lad where he is.
verse 18
ARise, lift up the lad....I WILL MAKE HIM A GREAT NATION. (Would God say that about an Idolatorous nation? :o )
verse 20
SO GOD WAS WITH THE LAD; ( WOW WHAT DOES WITH HIM MEAN?)


Real simple. The family of Ishmael would be made into a great nation- as in LARGE. It says nothing about their "goodness". The word "great" refers to size. The offspring of Abraham had the ear of YHWH. Don't feel too thrilled... so did the devil. Read the book of Job.



Now that it's established from fact on the planet that the Ishmaelites are indeed a great nation in numbers as well as praising God......(irrefutable!)


You see, it is comments like this from you and 301 that show your blind adherence to human (at best) doctrines. It seems to me that Ishmael was complaining to YHWH, not worshipping Him. Irrefutable... chuckle.



I hope you'll be able to take in the evidence I will present from the BIble, Inshallah.

Please explain "Inshallah". Evidence is fine, but conjecture and false imputations will be met with harsh criticism.




I'm quoting the Bible alot to show you the book only you read from. I haven't even quoted the GLORIOUS QUR'AN.


The quran has NOT been supernaturally inspired by the One who knows the future. The quran stands in stark contrast to the true prophets and only holds Mohammed- a murderous pirate as its only "prophet".




As you might already know, as a Muslim the Qur'an is to us the GUARDIAN of past scripture, meaning it contains the truth of the past.


Your poison and your delusion... but that is your choice.




I haven't made cheap little insults to you or anything of that nature yet I wonder why you continue to spew them out your mouth?


Your quotation of false prophecy is insulting. Your disingenuous "quoting of the bible" is another insult. I merely state the nature of Mohammad- the murderous cult leader and his unreliability as a "prophet". Without him, Islam is nothing. With him, Islam is a false religion.



I will no longer give examples in this thread as it is way off course. I'm sure brother 301 will start one and get "smited" all the way and the same for me as well. The truth is never accepted easily though.


I love truth. Try speaking some and I will applaud your words.

[301ouncer]

not that we do not believe in the existance of jesus pbuh but i personnaly have a reservation of paul

Two Pauls – One Illusion

The trail-blazing Christian missionary and apostle, St Paul, appears nowhere in the secular histories of his age (not in Tacitus, not in Pliny, not in Josephus, etc.) Though Paul, we are told, mingled in the company of provincial governors and had audiences before kings and emperors, no scribe thought it worthwhile to record these events. The popular image of the saint is selectively crafted from two sources: the Book of Acts and the Epistles which bear his name. Yet the two sources actually present two radically different individuals and two wildly divergent stories. Biblical scholars are only too familiar with the conundrum that chunks of Paul's own story, gleaned from the epistles, are incompatible with the tale recorded in Acts but live with the "divine mystery" of it all. Perish the thought that they might recognize the whole saga is a work of pious fiction.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/saul-paul.htm

[Spectrism]

not that we do not believe in the existance of jesus pbuh but i personnaly have a reservation of paul

Two Pauls – One Illusion

The trail-blazing Christian missionary and apostle, St Paul, appears nowhere in the secular histories of his age (not in Tacitus, not in Pliny, not in Josephus, etc.) Though Paul, we are told, mingled in the company of provincial governors and had audiences before kings and emperors, no scribe thought it worthwhile to record these events. The popular image of the saint is selectively crafted from two sources: the Book of Acts and the Epistles which bear his name. Yet the two sources actually present two radically different individuals and two wildly divergent stories. Biblical scholars are only too familiar with the conundrum that chunks of Paul's own story, gleaned from the epistles, are incompatible with the tale recorded in Acts but live with the "divine mystery" of it all. Perish the thought that they might recognize the whole saga is a work of pious fiction.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/saul-paul.htm



Let's examine hyposcrisy, shall we?

hy·poc·ri·sy (h-pkr-s)
n. pl. hy·poc·ri·sies
1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
2. An act or instance of such falseness.


not that we do not believe in the existance of jesus pbuh followed by a reference from an atheistic site that claims this same "jesus pbuh" is a fantasy....

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/saul-paul.htm


Your reference to prove that Paul was a fake is a bitter and twisted (from truth) writer on an atheist website who has nothing to verify his attacks. In fact, the examples of atrocities and human failings given are prime evidence of the fallen nature of mankind and the base condition of all. The need for a savior is shown even among the naysayers and liars- moreso than other places.

So, 301, if you want to post lies and hypocritical rubbish, this only cements your character.

[301ouncer]

I am only interested in the cemented evidence available to me. If they are athiests and disblieve in Jesus pbuh that is their problem. They should be your first line enemy and not muslims.

At least we support you in affarming the existance of your messenger Jesus pbuh with not just cheap and empty words but with a magnificant scripture like none other.

:-X

[Spectrism]

I am only interested in the cemented evidence available to me. If they are athiests and disblieve in Jesus pbuh that is their problem. They should be your first line enemy and not muslims.

At least we support you in affarming the existance of your messenger Jesus pbuh with not just cheap and empty words but with a magnificant scripture like none other.

:-X


No. You call Jesus a liar. You say he was a prophet. And you say he was a madman. You can't even get your story straight.

Yahshuah (Jesus) was the only begotten son of the father (YHWH). YHWH is NOT Allah. Allah is not God. Yahshuah said that he and the father are one. He claimed to be sinless. Prophecy verifies the description of the Messiah and it was completely fulfilled only by the man called Yahshuah (Jesus). And this phony "pbuh" crap is a bit much. He needs no "peace be upon him" from decrepit man. True worship of Messiah is in Spirit and Truth.

You bow before Mohammad and call him your prophet. That is your choice and nobody will deny you the right to worship whoever and whatever you want. But let's not try to claim you also worship the Messiah.

[Jazkal]

People like to misinterpret or mistranslate Paul's writing. The short of it is, even if Paul did teach a different doctrine (which IMO he did not) who the hell is he to contradict Jesus?

Going back to the original topic of this thread...

Most Christians I've talked to, are not even aware of the warning given to us by Peter about Paul's writings.

2 Peter 3:14-17

14) Therefore, beloved, looking for these things, be diligent, spotless, and without blemish, to be found by Him in peace.

15) And think of the long-suffering of our Lord as salvation (as our beloved brother Paul also has written to you according to the wisdom given to him

16) as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction).

17) Therefore, beloved, knowing beforehand, beware lest being led away with the error of the lawless, you fall from your own steadfastness.

[7th trump]

I am only interested in the cemented evidence available to me. If they are athiests and disblieve in Jesus pbuh that is their problem. They should be your first line enemy and not muslims.

At least we support you in affarming the existance of your messenger Jesus pbuh with not just cheap and empty words but with a magnificant scripture like none other.

:-X


No. You call Jesus a liar. You say he was a prophet. And you say he was a madman. You can't even get your story straight.

Yahshuah (Jesus) was the only begotten son of the father (YHWH). YHWH is NOT Allah. Allah is not God. Yahshuah said that he and the father are one. He claimed to be sinless. Prophecy verifies the description of the Messiah and it was completely fulfilled only by the man called Yahshuah (Jesus). And this phony "pbuh" crap is a bit much. He needs no "peace be upon him" from decrepit man. True worship of Messiah is in Spirit and Truth.

You bow before Mohammad and call him your prophet. That is your choice and nobody will deny you the right to worship whoever and whatever you want. But let's not try to claim you also worship the Messiah.

Amen to that Spec.

[Spectrism]

People like to misinterpret or mistranslate Paul's writing. The short of it is, even if Paul did teach a different doctrine (which IMO he did not) who the hell is he to contradict Jesus?

Going back to the original topic of this thread...

Most Christians I've talked to, are not even aware of the warning given to us by Peter about Paul's writings.

2 Peter 3:14-17

14) Therefore, beloved, looking for these things, be diligent, spotless, and without blemish, to be found by Him in peace.

15) And think of the long-suffering of our Lord as salvation (as our beloved brother Paul also has written to you according to the wisdom given to him

16) as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction).

17) Therefore, beloved, knowing beforehand, beware lest being led away with the error of the lawless, you fall from your own steadfastness.





Hi Jaz- welcome to the forum. Peter was a bit hard-headed and the gospel of grace brought with it the message of liberty BEFORE works. Freedom from sin meant the ability to do things in the power of the Spirit. The old ways were viewed as working to attain favor with God. Paul saw clearly the message of peace (between man & God) as the Messiah fulfilled the law. Remember that Paul was a student of the law... a pharisee. His encounter with Messiah and indwelling of the Spirit gave him a new heart and new eyes. The power he brought to the teachings of the other disciples was sorely needed.

The perversion that Peter speaks of was the licentiousness of those thinking they could do anything and not worry about what was right. The gospel of grace is the message of freedom for believers to follow the law. It is the new ability to be lawful, not unlawful.

[philo beddoe]

The Book of Romans makes perfect sense to me sense if taken in the context of the gospels.


Jesus vs Paul
Is there a big difference between Pauls words and that of Jesus? It seems protestants believe in the whole book of Romans/Paul ideology more than Jesus.

To me, Romans says, "be a good slave"

[Kali]

To the OP...

Actually most Christians do not understand the difference between Jesus's Gospel and Pauls.

Although there is only 1 Gospel it did evolve over time.

When Jesus was here for example he had not died yet, so his death was not part of the Gospel that was being preached then.

We can see in John 20:9 that they did not know at that time that Jesus was to be raised from the dead...but yet they were saved.

Later, after Jesus died and rose again he gave this completed Gospel over to Paul.

Paul calls it his Gospel (Romans 16:25).

It is the completed Gospel, death, burial, and resurrection. 1 Corinthians 15

This is what a person has to believe today, Pauls Gospel.

[philo beddoe]

To the OP...

Actually most Christians do not understand the difference between Jesus's Gospel and Pauls.

Although there is only 1 Gospel it did evolve over time.

When Jesus was here for example he had not died yet, so his death was not part of the Gospel that was being preached then.

We can see in John 20:9 that they did not know at that time that Jesus was to be raised from the dead...but yet they were saved.

Later, after Jesus died and rose again he gave this completed Gospel over to Paul.

Paul calls it his Gospel (Romans 16:25).

It is the completed Gospel, death, burial, and resurrection. 1 Corinthians 15

This is what a person has to believe today, Pauls Gospel.



Let's Imagine you're Satan. How quickly are you going to send someone over to corrupt the message of Christ? These dispensational protestants think there was a great Catholic conspiracy three hundred years after Christ. Not buying it. Even if Paul was sincere, EVERYTHING he said was just a suggestion, same as Billy Graham or John Hagee making a suggestion.

[illumin19]

Let's Imagine you're Satan. How quickly are you going to send someone over to corrupt the message of Christ? These dispensational protestants think there was a great Catholic conspiracy three hundred years after Christ. Not buying it. Even if Paul was sincere, EVERYTHING he said was just a suggestion, same as Billy Graham or John Hagee making a suggestion.

I concur with the bold 100%. NO different for myself or yourself either.
Which brings back my first reply.

If you are not a prophet.......well you are not on the level of a prophet, PERIOD.
Follow the prophets.

[StackerKen]

Paul wrote Thessalonians

and in it he said, " test everything that is said. Hold on to what is good."

So, I think he was telling folks Not to take his word for things and to check them out(with scripture) for them selfs

[greenbear]

Paul wrote Thessalonians

and in it he said, " test everything that is said. Hold on to what is good."

So, I think he was telling folks Not to take his word for things and to check them out(with scripture) for them selfs



So, I think he was telling folks Not to take his word for things and to check them out(with scripture) for them selfs

Pau'ls epistles ARE scripture. Peter recognized them as such. 2 Pe 3:16. Paul never said not to take his word for things. He says was Christ's Apostle to the Gentiles! If we take Paul's epistles out of the Bible, we don't understand the gospel of the grace of God! Salvation by grace through faith alone, not of works, the mystery of the rapture (catching up to meet Christ in the air), most everything having to do specifically with the largely gentile Church. Without Paul's writings we might as well pack it up and go home. Look up instances of "mystery", 90% is in Paul's epistles. Look up "grace" in the NT and you will find maybe four times it's used, once in Luke, 3 times in John, twice in Acts before Paul is fully on the scene. After that, from Acts 13 to the end of Acts it's used 8 times, from Romans to Philemon Paul uses the word GRACE 80 TIMES. Paul's writings are essential for the Church. That's why Satan uses people to attacks Paul more than any of the other authors of books of the Bible.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

..........................


Edit: Read Acts chapters 9, 22 and 23 to refresh on how Jesus personally selected Paul. The fact that this is recorded in Acts written by Luke, interestingly gives at least three witnesses confirming Paul's Apostleship.

Paul was "caught up" to the third heaven and heard unspeakable words that it was not lawful for man to utter. He was given a thorn in the flesh for that reason,

2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Jesus Christ taught Paul personally. His gospel and doctrine is directly from Christ. That is why he qualifies as an Apostle , one born out of due time 1Co 15:8. He didn't learn from Christ while he was on the earth like the other Apostles, he learned his doctrine from the ascended and glorified Christ.

This is why Satan hates Paul so much.

[StackerKen]

Thanks GB :)

[Kali]

Paul's words were God's words just as much as the red letters in your Bible are.

Absolutely no difference.

[philo beddoe]

Paul wrote Thessalonians

and in it he said, " test everything that is said. Hold on to what is good."

So, I think he was telling folks Not to take his word for things and to check them out(with scripture) for them selfs



So, I think he was telling folks Not to take his word for things and to check them out(with scripture) for them selfs

Pau'ls epistles ARE scripture. Peter recognized them as such. 2 Pe 3:16. Paul never said not to take his word for things. He says was Christ's Apostle to the Gentiles! If we take Paul's epistles out of the Bible, we don't understand the gospel of the grace of God! Salvation by grace through faith alone, not of works, the mystery of the rapture (catching up to meet Christ in the air), most everything having to do specifically with the largely gentile Church. Without Paul's writings we might as well pack it up and go home. Look up instances of "mystery", 90% is in Paul's epistles. Look up "grace" in the NT and you will find maybe four times it's used, once in Luke, 3 times in John, twice in Acts before Paul is fully on the scene. After that, from Acts 13 to the end of Acts it's used 8 times, from Romans to Philemon Paul uses the word GRACE 80 TIMES. Paul's writings are essential for the Church.That's why Satan uses people to attacks Paul more than any of the other authors of books of the Bible.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

..........................


Edit: Read Acts chapters 9, 22 and 23 to refresh on how Jesus personally selected Paul. The fact that this is recorded in Acts written by Luke, interestingly gives at least three witnesses confirming Paul's Apostleship.

Paul was "caught up" to the third heaven and heard unspeakable words that it was not lawful for man to utter. He was given a thorn in the flesh for that reason,

2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Jesus Christ taught Paul personally. His gospel and doctrine is directly from Christ. That is why he qualifies as an Apostle , one born out of due time 1Co 15:8. He didn't learn from Christ while he was on the earth like the other Apostles, he learned his doctrine from the ascended and glorified Christ.

This is why Satan hates Paul so much.
You are making my point. How can you be Christian, and then say christianity can not exist without Paul. Noit buying it.