If God didn't create the universe, who (or what) did?

[madfranks]

I consider the creation of the universe to be an event of such magnitude that it requires a claim to the supernatural. As far as I know, no natural process can account for the creation of space, time and matter, so is not the only conclusion that something higher than space, time and matter (supernatural) was necessary to create our universe?

[Unobtainium]

What we think od as the universe is actually, as the Eastern mystics would say, Maya or illusion. It exists ephemerally, not materially. Even at the other extreme, that of sub atomic physics, we find that the atom is comprised only of energy charges in rotation. Matter is hence as illusory and insubstantial as a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, or a dream.

[agmom]

I consider the creation of the universe to be an event of such magnitude that it requires a claim to the supernatural. As far as I know, no natural process can account for the creation of space, time and matter, so is not the only conclusion that something higher than space, time and matter (supernatural) was necessary to create our universe?


Yes!

God gets full credit for the creation of, well, everything.

Science gets to try to figure out how He did it! ;D

[StackerKen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAVjF_7ensg

[DTM]

My answer to that would be to rephrase as "who (or what) is God?"

[keehah]

Like other said, why the pre-occupation with creation? (This question applies to the 'big banging' scientists as well)

I expect is has to do a psychological response to the fact man at this stage in time is so busy destroying.

Concentrate on being! 8)

[singular_me]

What we think od as the universe is actually, as the Eastern mystics would say, Maya or illusion. It exists ephemerally, not materially. Even at the other extreme, that of sub atomic physics, we find that the atom is comprised only of energy charges in rotation. Matter is hence as illusory and insubstantial as a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, or a dream.


exactly .. the universe created itself... mind and consciousness, the power of intent are its origins. God created itself first... but has always existed. The Dark Matter or the Ether is the mother of the all things. All suns: Light - in the cosmos are masculine All atoms are a different Light components, compressions of Light I mean.

Thinking in term ofa cosmos Day 1, is a simplistic way to explain - the almost unexplainable... We may never know where Light is coming from but we can analyze its substance. I watched a video once, saying that it Universal Consciousness comprises a "infinite number of Souls" willing to experience all the Matter in the Universe.

That is why many believe in reincarnation. As far as I grasp it, there are 7 different levels of Consciousness. Human beings are the 5th one, if I remember well. The 7th level is pure spirit where our body energies go back when we die (and can prepare for the next incarnation). It also shreds the Light on many religious texts, as why 7 is a sacred number. Experiencing Souls will go through all the stages as how to learn Awareness. All levels of Consciousness dont interact, if your programmation so to speak is to experience human life, you dont come back as a plant/animal... but your dead body will feed other lower forms of consciousness... our material bodies return to Earth and allow plants and animals to continue their own lower consciousness cycles. In the Universe, no energy is lost. It feeds off Itself.

God is in fact exepriencing itself constantly... It does not intervene therefore, which is rule #1 of Anarchy in the positive way. The more freedom (acquired with Knowledge), the less suffering. All that is is Love and Selfleness. Evil is the consequence of a failure to comprehend this. We commit evil because God gave us free will, the power of the choice. So God created Evil too as a response, to show us the right path. The concept of "Satan" is a simplistic way to expain this and fragments ppl's minds.

The problem with organized religions is that "they" misguide their followers by claiming there is an Order. There is no model as the model itself is designed to teach us the growth in Awareness via perpetual experiences. All the matter is the manifestation/visualization of God... we are God.

edit: all the greatest spritualists, or anyone practicing detachment/selflesness actively, have attained the 6th consciousness level.

[cortez]

What we think od as the universe is actually, as the Eastern mystics would say, Maya or illusion. It exists ephemerally, not materially. Even at the other extreme, that of sub atomic physics, we find that the atom is comprised only of energy charges in rotation. Matter is hence as illusory and insubstantial as a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, or a dream.



the eastern religions that speak of Maya or Illusion, samsara also state the belief in co dependent origination. meaning that nothing can come into creation of itself or without cause. The Buddha when asked about a soul or creator would state that anything that takes one out of the present moment to contemplate the past or such matters is to become emersed in wrong state of being. essentially one being so focused on the present, one is without the accumulation of Karma and is only focused on gaining Nirvana. that state is liberating of stress. sorry about spelling

[singular_me]

good short and conscise answer, Cortez!!!

[Spectrism]

What we think od as the universe is actually, as the Eastern mystics would say, Maya or illusion. It exists ephemerally, not materially. Even at the other extreme, that of sub atomic physics, we find that the atom is comprised only of energy charges in rotation. Matter is hence as illusory and insubstantial as a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, or a dream.


Hows about we hook you up to that "illusory" and "insubstantial" flash of lightning and see if you change your story? ;D

Just because we think we see a pattern in something, does not mean we can suddenly disregard its reality. I see this nonsense too frequently from the "eastern" philospher worshippers.

[singular_me]

reality is what you think it is... all realities are comprised in all that IS, because we exist to share our experiences and help the Universe continue its own development.

Anyone fighting this will help create antagonistic forces, and thus fears, which is what the elites are banking on

I am not against anyone's belief system as long as it is NOT coerced. Coercion of any kind should be seen as the only problem. If christianity hadnt been coerced for centuries long, it would most likely not be the big monopoly it is today.

The thought process is endless.

[Spectrism]

reality is what you think it is... all realities are comprised in all that IS, because we exist to share our experiences and help the Universe continue its own development.

Reality is not created by human thoughts. If that were so, there would be no need to do things. Consider the delusional woman who "sees" bamboo trees sprouting up through the streets of Times Square. Taxicabs drive through her "reality". No. This is not reality.

Reality is the existence of basic truths that can be shared by anyone who is not encumbered by delusion. (my definition)



Anyone fighting this will help create antagonistic forces, and thus fears, which is what the elites are banking on

Huh? hmmm.... ooookay.



I am not against anyone's belief system as long as it is NOT coerced. Coercion of any kind should be seen as the only problem. If christianity hadnt been coerced for centuries long, it would most likely not be the big monopoly it is today.

ALL beliefs are coerced. You believe something because you have to. Can you believe something that you find unbelieveable? Can you believe what you have never heard of? If you have only heard one thing, can you believe anything else?

This is why free and open exchanges of information are so important. It is also why the news media repeatedly harp on the same old lies.

When you talk of christianity, you paint with a wide brush. You should see that there is a small core group of true christians who are not bound by the human organizations.

[madfranks]

reality is what you think it is... all realities are comprised in all that IS, because we exist to share our experiences and help the Universe continue its own development.

Years ago, hanging out with some friends downtown, I had a great discussion with a lady who identified herself as a solipsist (from Wikipedia: Solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is certain to exist. The external world and other minds cannot be known and might not exist.). I had a great conversation with her throughout the night, but I noticed that she still checked for cars/buses before she crossed the street.

[singular_me]

Reality is not created by human thoughts

All human realities based on subjectivity and empirism... the path is to overcome it and constantly expand. The Greater Reality is something we cannot fanthom at this stage. Every point of view is part of a bigger one, and so on, then fuse with Nothingness. So the more we seek, the less exact answers we get in fact due to exponential factors. That may seem mind boggling but all the paths lead to the zero point theory. In the zero point Universe, everything is neither completely true or false. Polarity must work both ways, confirm one another. As far as I understand it, God/Spirit is the full equilibrium between negative and positive. Light.


ALL beliefs are coerced.

that is why spiritual doomsday is on the horizon.

but lets go back to its infancy, we have to anaylize mythologies and see where they all connect... back to the roots and improve from there. The Indian Vedic, which is pantheistic: explaing the "all that is"... much older than Judaism, and other cults of like that of Osiris. Sumerians also held many insights.

The separation of body and spirit, was invented by the elites and is the only major problem we are face with. I suspect that it was appraoched in the original texts of the bible, but since The Constantine Era re-arranged everything after the fire of the Library Of Alexandria, christians have been left in the Dark since then.

Matter and Spirituality will have to reunite at some point (and quantum physics can help achieve this), if we want to survive as a species.

edit: all my current thoughts are indeed coerced by the realization of the deadly environment we live in. Hence do agree that selflessness is the only way out. In my view it is the only sustainable solution, to stop being part of the problem.

[Ash_Williams]

I consider the creation of the universe to be an event of such magnitude that it requires a claim to the supernatural. As far as I know, no natural process can account for the creation of space, time and matter, so is not the only conclusion that something higher than space, time and matter (supernatural) was necessary to create our universe?

I think the universe is just imagination applied to nothing. If it were just numbers, and 0 is nothing, you can also express 0 as 1+2+3+4+5-5-4-3-2-1 or in any number of complex ways by applying imagination.

So we start with a consciousness using imagination to question this vast universe and end up with that vast universe really being nothing and just the result of consciousness and imagination. The question is if it's the same consciousness at both ends. Are we in the universe or maybe it's in us.

[Spectrism]

Reality is not created by human thoughts

All reality is based on subjectivity... the path is to overcome it and constantly expand.

No. Subjectivity is the perception of reality through ones impaired eyes. Subjectivity does NOT beget reality. Reality is independent of subjectivity.




ALL beliefs are coerced.

that is why spiritual doomsday is on the horizon.

I said this in a strong way using your word of coercion. Here is what I mean: unless one is delusional, he cannot lay hold of any other VIEW of reality accept the one he believes. If you believe you are in New Jersey because you are standing in Trenton and know how you got there, can you just change your mind and decide you are now in Hawaii? Intellectual and observational honesty "coerce" you into believing you are still in New Jersey. Your knowledge and understanding will bnot let you believe a lie.... UNLESS... you have chosen to be ruled by delusion.



but lets go back to its infancy, we have to anaylize mythologies and see where they all connect... back to the roots and improve from there. The Indian Vedic, which is pantheistic: explaing the "all that is"... much older tha Judaism, and other cults of Osiris. Sumerians also hold many insights.

Just a side note before we proceed... age does not make it right. These lies of new age philosophy are the same old lies of thousands of years ago.



The separation of body and spirit is the only major problem we are face with. I suspect that it was appraoched in the original texts of the bible, but since The Constantine Era re-arranged everything after the fire of the Library Of Alexandria, christians have been left in the Dark since then.

That is pretty amazing. Let me lay this one on you. Only the christians have the Spirit of God dwelling within them. All others are in darkness.
There is no need for the libraries of Alexandria or the philosophers.


Matter and Spirituality will have to reunite at some point (and quantum physics can help achieve this), if we want to survive as a species.

Really? Would you mind telling me how quantum physics does this?

[Spectrism]

I consider the creation of the universe to be an event of such magnitude that it requires a claim to the supernatural. As far as I know, no natural process can account for the creation of space, time and matter, so is not the only conclusion that something higher than space, time and matter (supernatural) was necessary to create our universe?

I think the universe is just imagination applied to nothing. If it were just numbers, and 0 is nothing, you can also express 0 as 1+2+3+4+5-5-4-3-2-1 or in any number of complex ways by applying imagination.

So we start with a consciousness using imagination to question this vast universe and end up with that vast universe really being nothing and just the result of consciousness and imagination. The question is if it's the same consciousness at both ends. Are we in the universe or maybe it's in us.



Existential mental masturbating nonsense.

[singular_me]

Really? Would you mind telling me how quantum physics does this?

you are reading selectively... I stated that we cannot fathom the Greater reality. Yet you keep talking of reality, as a constant value. There is no such a thing since the Whole/ALL is infinite and tranforms endlessly. There are other dimensions in the Universe, many would agree with that. So all we are able to do is to witnesswhat works within our realm and observe patterns... and one does this with mathematics, quantum physics, geometry... all math derived concepts. Rationality opens the gate to Spirituality. We cannot grasp the Life - and even biology, meterology, etc - without mathematics. Today many physicists agree that black holes are wombs spread throughout the Universe.

The Universe is a tetra-giga computer that doesnt stop working, creating endlessly as It experiences itself. We will NEVER catch up with it. We only can do is to comprhend how it works.

bible: god sez: I AM...

[singular_me]

reality is what you think it is... all realities are comprised in all that IS, because we exist to share our experiences and help the Universe continue its own development.

Years ago, hanging out with some friends downtown, I had a great discussion with a lady who identified herself as a solipsist (from Wikipedia: Solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is certain to exist. The external world and other minds cannot be known and might not exist.). I had a great conversation with her throughout the night, but I noticed that she still checked for cars/buses before she crossed the street.


I certainly grasp the stretch there, extremely interesting... other minds cannot be known: herds have been proven very hazardous to health. Every vision is singular and we all are inter-connected at once... ooh, I just found a new word: singular-interconnectedness.

But it works the other round too: the environment/influences defines who we are.. I smell a catch 22 here.

[Ash_Williams]

Existential mental masturbating nonsense.

I don't do philosophy because I found it to be more the art of naming ideas than thinking about things. I don't know what I said has to do with 'existentialism' and I don't care that much.

My idea is simple based on quantum physics and solutions to equations. There does appear to be a -1 for every 1, of everything. Simple. So what there is, in total, of everything we can measure is 0. The only thing left is the imagination that can say that 0 can look like this universe and a mirror image of this universe instead of just nothing. It may not even be an imagination, it may just be a rule that every possible universe that can exist, does. Call that imagination or that rule "God" if you would like.

[Spectrism]

Really? Would you mind telling me how quantum physics does this?

you are reading selectively...

No, I am reading carefully and NOT reading additional thoughts into or out of what is written.



I stated that we cannot fathom the Greater reality.


No, you said that we create reality by our thoughts. If that is so, how is it impossible to fathom the greater reality? Is “Greater reality” different from “reality”? Care for more mud in your water? Perhaps a little more fog will clear this up? I won’t be bamboozled by double talk.



Yet you keep talking of reality, as a constant value.


Where? I said nothing about reality being constant or small (not Greater) or finite. How can you read that into what I wrote- that reality is a truth available to all who are not encumbered by delusion? When I say “truth”, this is not one item. Truth is universal and independent. It will not be tied down to perceptions, delusions, misconceptions or wishes.



There is no such a thing since the Whole/ALL is infinite and tranforms endlessly. There are other dimensions in the Universe, many would agree with that. So all we are able to do is to witnesswhat works within our realm and observe patterns... and one does this with mathematics, quantum physics, geometry... all math derived concepts.


I am way ahead of you sister. These patterns and observations are not “math derived concepts”. They co-exist and supplement each other. Math does not make anything. It is only part of the picture.



Rationality opens the gate to Spirituality.


Not necessarily. There are many gateways to spirituality. And, not all “spirituality” is good. For those always reaching for something better that always seems just beyond them, “spirituality” feels like the enlightened goal. Entering the wrong gateway can be devastating. Just to make clear, I use the trem spirituality to refer to dealing with the spiritual realm.




We cannot grasp the Life - and even biology, meterology, etc - without mathematics. Today many physicists agree that black holes are wombs spread out throughout the Universe.


Baloney. Tell that to the 3-year old child. Tell that to the primitive tribesman in the Amazon rain forest. Today we have school-programmed, educated idiots who have no clues about life. Talk about wombs… these educated morons think that human babies are NOT life! They have sacred “wombs” spread out through the universe that they cannot see and they desecrate the human womb where their very life began.




The Universe is a tetra-giga computer that doesnt stop working, creating endlessly as It experiences itself. We will NEVER catch up with it. We only can do is to comprhend how it works.

bible: god sez: I AM...


Only one person can say “I am” for all time. And it would be wise to sit under His instruction.

[Spectrism]

Existential mental masturbating nonsense.

I don't do philosophy because I found it to be more the art of naming ideas than thinking about things. I don't know what I said has to do with 'existentialism' and I don't care that much.

My idea is simple based on quantum physics and solutions to equations. There does appear to be a -1 for every 1, of everything. Simple. So what there is, in total, of everything we can measure is 0. The only thing left is the imagination that can say that 0 can look like this universe and a mirror image of this universe instead of just nothing. It may not even be an imagination, it may just be a rule that every possible universe that can exist, does. Call that imagination or that rule "God" if you would like.


What is the opposite for you? If all things have a counterpart in the universe, what is a negative Adh_Williams? What is a negative flower? What is a negative horse? No... don't fall into that mumbo jumbo.

[singular_me]

evrey cell contains in very living thing is repeated on a grand scale.

Macro and micro are alike... we are talking in terms of Life energy, the electric charge and magnetism in all things. Atomic cohesion. I am sure there are planets whose densities/masses are as light as that of a flower.

zero is the theory which everything starts with. And if we add all theories together, we go back to zero. This is a vortex. Nassim explains vortices very well by the way.

no manbo-jumbo, I am afraid

[singular_me]

here is the torus - where the center point considered as zero. The entire universe is a vortex, that is soooo big that we do not see it.. The Universe's vortex contains other smaller vortices, which are the center of every galaxy. The Torus is a major theory in physics and is observable on many scales, for example the embryo at the 3rd day has the shape of a doughnut/vortex.

EDIT: the embryo takes the shape of a doughnut after it has divised itself in 3 cells.

http://bugman123.com/Math/HopfFibration1-large.jpg

less artistic view

http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/70/l_911cc4d61ca14f49b8d8047af4ce1c10.gif

[Spectrism]

The question still rings out in this thread: how did the universe originate?

A hokeypokey longhair pretending to know physics as if math created existence and life out of itself is just little under my acceptability level. If I draw a picture of a geometric object and claim that because of this I have discovered the origin of the universe, I would laugh at anyone gullible enough to listen to me.

All of the examples of observations point to an intelligent creator of the universe with careful attention to every detail. Living things in their organization of matter stand out in firm contrast to the entropic nature of the non-living universe. All scientists can do is observe, emulate and use. Unfortunately they are also perverting portions and there will be horrible consequences to the perversions of life.

[Osaka]

It was the Jews.

[madfranks]

It was the Jews.


Ha ha! Well played, Osaka, well played.

[StackerKen]

"Mumbo Jumbo"

I call it that too, when Im trying to be Nice. :)


it reminds me of this by Segismundo


I dream that I am here
of these imprisonments charged,
and I dreamed that in another state
happier I saw myself.
What is life? A frenzy.
What is life? An illusion,
A shadow, a fiction,
And the greatest profit is small;
For all of life is a dream,
And dreams, are nothing but dreams.

Mumbo Jumbo?

or just plain BS?

Or is it, the lies of the deceiver

Satan is The father of lies. and he Is very good at what he does

Don't let him fool you folks

[Ash_Williams]

What is the opposite for you? If all things have a counterpart in the universe, what is a negative Adh_Williams? What is a negative flower? What is a negative horse? No... don't fall into that mumbo jumbo.

The negative is other solution of the equation.
Say you can describe a particle with x2 = 4 (silly but simple). So x = 2, clearly. But x could also equal -2. The equation for a particle is more complex but you still get two answers and we normally see only one of them. The negative Ash_Williams is doing the same thing I am right now except if I were to look at his world it would all have a '-' sign in front of it as compared to mine.



The question still rings out in this thread: how did the universe originate?

A hokeypokey longhair pretending to know physics as if math created existence and life out of itself is just little under my acceptability level. If I draw a picture of a geometric object and claim that because of this I have discovered the origin of the universe, I would laugh at anyone gullible enough to listen to me.

All of the examples of observations point to an intelligent creator of the universe with careful attention to every detail. Living things in their organization of matter stand out in firm contrast to the entropic nature of the non-living universe. All scientists can do is observe, emulate and use. Unfortunately they are also perverting portions and there will be horrible consequences to the perversions of life.

i don't know the answers but I have more questions:
How is it that the creator exists? Why does he/she/it exist? In what kind of world does he exist in?

[Spectrism]

What is the opposite for you? If all things have a counterpart in the universe, what is a negative Ash_Williams? What is a negative flower? What is a negative horse? No... don't fall into that mumbo jumbo.




The negative is other solution of the equation.
Say you can describe a particle with x2 = 4 (silly but simple). So x = 2, clearly. But x could also equal -2. The equation for a particle is more complex but you still get two answers and we normally see only one of them. The negative Ash_Williams is doing the same thing I am right now except if I were to look at his world it would all have a '-' sign in front of it as compared to mine.


That is fine if there was only a 2-dimensional universe. To express polarity so simplistically as the lecturer did does not do justice to a multi-dimensional world. The concepts of polarity and equilibrium are interesting. The problem with summing them to zero is this: take a bowl of water and place it in an enclosure…. A glass box. Water evaporates and condenses until an equilibrium is reached for that temperature, pressure and purity of water. Does it sum to zero? No. There is water above zero amount to start with.

Take a flower. There is no negative flower summing its value to zero. There is no (negative) Ash_Williams summing you to zero. Such a concept is an attempt at mind control. I have used it in hypnosis. Here is an example…. Count backward from 100 in even numbers and count forward from zero in odd numbers until they intersect. When I see someone present contradictory or brain-stalling concepts, I kick out that division-by-zero monkey wrench and dig into the manipulator’s motivation.




i don't know the answers but I have more questions:
How is it that the creator exists? Why does he/she/it exist? In what kind of world does he exist in?

The Creator told us: I am that I am.

He has stepped away from parts of this world as the authority here was given to mankind. We abused that authority and gave it over to the deceiver. This was why we needed the Messiah… to come into this enemy kingdom and fight the battle we could not.

[Ash_Williams]

Yeah but I believe there is a negative flower, one that you could overlap with one of our flowers and end up with no mass remaining. The energy used to turn nothing into a positive and negative flower will then be returned.

You have a glass box filled with water but I have a glass box filled with nothing. If I pull a flower from it, what is left in the box is a negative flower.
Why is thinking that there could be a negative particle for every particle we see mind control?

You totally avoided my questions about the creator. It's the old thing, that the universe is so complex and amazing so how can it exist without a creator? Well if you have trouble with the universe existing, then why do you have no trouble with the creator existing? How is it that this intelligence exists? Why does anything exist?

Even if you assume a creator you end up with the same questions as I do.

[Spectrism]

Yeah but I believe there is a negative flower, one that you could overlap with one of our flowers and end up with no mass remaining. The energy used to turn nothing into a positive and negative flower will then be returned.

You see, if the universe had no creator who supplied the energy / matter, then I might agree with you. Your presumption is that there was nothing in the beginning of all beginnings. Now I understand your concept…. But it requires a very seriously flawed assumption that cannot be verified.



You have a glass box filled with water but I have a glass box filled with nothing. If I pull a flower from it, what is left in the box is a negative flower.
Why is thinking that there could be a negative particle for every particle we see mind control?
If you take a flower out of a box, you have NOTHING left in the box… NOT a negative flower. Come on… think about it. If it left a negative flower, you would need to put 2 back in, in order to have one.

It is not the thinking of a negative particle that is mind-control. What I was referring to was the use of logical contradictions to freeze parts of the mind in do-loops while the message presented bypasses scrutiny. It is like pre-occupying security guards while the perpetrators sneak in undetected.




You totally avoided my questions about the creator. It's the old thing, that the universe is so complex and amazing so how can it exist without a creator? Well if you have trouble with the universe existing, then why do you have no trouble with the creator existing? How is it that this intelligence exists? Why does anything exist?

Even if you assume a creator you end up with the same questions as I do.


You display the dilemma of the security guards watching the wrong show. This is the danger of the modern day mystics who bedazzle people with absolute BS – paradigms and the unions of non-intersecting lines.

What question did I avoid? You want me to explain everything about the Creator of the universe who never had a beginning? How would I begin to explain the One who lives outside the boundaries of time? You say I avoid it as if it would be embarrassing for me to talk about it. Well, I also noticed that you avoid talking about the mineral content of the planets in the Crab Nebula. And you avoid talking about the silver ores in the earth’s core. And you avoid talking about the undiscovered species in the seep sea.

Please don’t mischaracterize my comments. I never stated some of the things you ascribed to me in the last paragraph. When did I say I have trouble with the universe existing? As for the complexity of the universe, if you think all of the intricacies happened by random chance, you really have an amazing tolerance for fairytales.

Some things I can tell you from personal experience. Other things are conjecture. My personal experience is that I have been contacted by the Creator and given new life. I am just a witness. There are also false witnesses. You must decide which witnesses are true and which are false.

[Ash_Williams]

Well you said this:


All of the examples of observations point to an intelligent creator of the universe with careful attention to every detail.

Which I took to be the argument that a creator must exist because of the complexity of the universe, just 'cause I've heard it so many times.

But if I'm wrong then why do you think there was a creator?

[Spectrism]

Well you said this:


All of the examples of observations point to an intelligent creator of the universe with careful attention to every detail.

Which I took to be the argument that a creator must exist because of the complexity of the universe, just 'cause I've heard it so many times.

But if I'm wrong then why do you think there was a creator?

I don't need to look beyond this planet to see a bold statement about creation. When we look at the physical "laws" of nature, we get a good understanding of many things dealing with the minerals, energy and their interactions. The flow from more organized to less organized is described in the laws of thermodynamics. In stark contrast to those laws we find LIFE.

[Ash_Williams]

The law applies to a closed system which the earth very much is not.

But even if these laws hold, and you can conclude something outside of the earth has guided things so that there is life, where did that thing come to be? Why explain the breaking of laws by proposing something that would seem to break them even further?

[Spectrism]

The law applies to a closed system which the earth very much is not.

But even if these laws hold, and you can conclude something outside of the earth has guided things so that there is life, where did that thing come to be? Why explain the breaking of laws by proposing something that would seem to break them even further?



Not at all. I propose the originator of the laws... the writer is above the law.

[Ash_Williams]

Let me try another approach to get at what I'm saying.

God created the universe. Now everyone of course asks who created god. The usual answer is that he's outside of time/space/whatever, he didn't need to be created, he's the creator not a creation, not subject to any rules 'cause he made them, and so on.

If I make a little model village with lego men in it, and they happen to be alive, they can ask who created them. It was me. Everything applies the same way, I can build that world any way I want and run their clocks backwards and move them backwards if I felt like it. I'd exist out of their space and time and not be subject to their lego rules.

But, what is the universe to a lego person? It could be the little village that I've created. If that is the "universe" then everything is wrapped up nicely with a creator and a creation. But, what if they define the universe as "everything that exists". Now there is a problem, because they know that their creator exists outside of their universe. "Everything that exists" includes the creator, which exists. They've taken the question up a level into the universe where I exist!

I'm taking the question up a level into the universe where your creator exists. Really what I ask is "why does anything exist?" That's the end question no matter how you get to it.

[Horn]

We did, all be it in a more combined position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNNJv_U45-g

[Spectrism]

Ash- the problem with your analogy is that we CANNOT even begin to fathom the Creator. He is so far removed from us in power, wisdom & knowledge that our ability to comprehend is limited to FINITE ideas.

What you are experiencing is the total inability of mankind to know what God knows. In your questions, you presume that we are superior to God and have the reasoning to box Him in. Big mistake. You want others to describe to you the taste of white light, the sound of an ellipse, the touching feel of a forgotten thought, the color of a magnetic field, the smell of laughter through a telephone line.

Are you able to make Lego men alive? Are you able to make them move and procreate? Are you able to establish time in that sandbox? No. You cannot. So the rest of your demand of God-likeness is false.

[StackerKen]

Good post Spectrism

this discussion reminds me of


Job 38

The LORD Speaks

1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said:
2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel
with words without knowledge?

3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.

5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?

6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone-

7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels [a] shouted for joy?

8 "Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,

9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,

10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,

11 when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt'?

12 "Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,

13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?

14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.

15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.

16 "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?

17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death [b] ?

18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.

19 "What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?

20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?

21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!

22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,

23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?

24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?

25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,

26 to water a land where no man lives,
a desert with no one in it,

27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?

28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?

29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens

30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?

31 "Can you bind the beautiful [c] Pleiades?
Can you loose the cords of Orion?

32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons [d]
or lead out the Bear [e] with its cubs?

33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God's [f] dominion over the earth?

34 "Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?

35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, 'Here we are'?

36 Who endowed the heart [g] with wisdom
or gave understanding to the mind [h] ?

37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens

38 when the dust becomes hard
and the clods of earth stick together?

39 "Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions

40 when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket?

41 Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?

[Ash_Williams]

I agree, we just don't know.

In math this would be like taking the set of everything and calling it A. But shouldn't A its self be included in the set of everything? Two simple thoughts, two short sentences, and you're stuck at a paradox.

For religion we can pretend to argue our way out of the paradox by changing definitions and other wordplay. In math we don't get so lucky so we leave it as it is.

To me it means the original question posed by the thread is unanswerable because I don't accept any convenient re-definitions of the "universe". If the universe is "everything that exists", then no one and no thing could have created it because to do so they would need to exist and it would mean the universe already exists so could not be created.

[Areyouanywhere]

I created it, no need to thank me. It was created for amusement purposes only.

[JohnQPublic]

reality is what you think it is... all realities are comprised in all that IS, because we exist to share our experiences and help the Universe continue its own development.

Years ago, hanging out with some friends downtown, I had a great discussion with a lady who identified herself as a solipsist (from Wikipedia: Solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is certain to exist. The external world and other minds cannot be known and might not exist.). I had a great conversation with her throughout the night, but I noticed that she still checked for cars/buses before she crossed the street.


That is what is known as an unconfident solpisst. Another term for uncofident solipisst is a solipisst that lived beyond 5 years old. ;)