So... what are your thoughts on Kol Nidre?

[sirgonzo420]

Here's a little bit from wikipedia:
wikipedia.org/wiki/Kol_Nidre


Kol Nidre or Kol Nidrei or Kal Nidre[1] (Aramaic: כָּל נִדְרֵי) is an Aramaic declaration recited in the synagogue before the beginning of the evening service on erev Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. Though not a prayer, this dry legal formula and its ceremonial accompaniment have been charged with emotional undertones since the medieval period, creating a dramatic introduction to Yom Kippur on what is often dubbed "Kol Nidrei night".[2] It is written in Aramaic, not Hebrew. Its name is taken from the opening words, meaning "all vows".

Kol Nidrei has had an eventful history, both in itself and in its influence on the legal status of the Jews. Introduced into the liturgy despite the opposition of some rabbinic authorities, attacked in the course of time by some rabbis, and in the nineteenth century expunged from the prayer-book by many communities of western Europe, Kol Nidrei has often been employed out of context by some to claim that Jews cannot be trusted.[3]

The term Kol Nidrei refers not only to the actual declaration, but is also popularly used as a name for the entire Yom Kippur evening service.

"All personal vows we are likely to make, all personal oaths and pledges we are likely to take between this Yom Kippur and the next Yom Kippur, we publicly renounce. Let them all be relinquished and abandoned, null and void, neither firm nor established. Let our personal vows, pledges and oaths be considered neither vows nor pledges nor oaths."[4][5]


What say you?

[Percival]

Its misunderstood by a certain select few mentally ill individuals who, because of their chemical imbalance can only see black and white.

[sirgonzo420]

Its misunderstood by a certain select few mentally ill inviduals who, because of their chemical imbalance can only see black and white.


Haha!

What a rebuttal!

Since it's misunderstood, could you clear it up for us?

I'm trying to be objective - I just want to better my understanding, and I figured you might be able to help with that.


:)

[sirgonzo420]

I think it's an interesting way to maintain loyalty to a group... I'm not aware of any other precedent in any other society or religion. The christian scripture "to the pure all is pure" comes sort of close... but the Kol Nidre really comes right out and SAYS it! :-\


I'm not aware of anything like it either, but by no means am I an expert. I thought there might be some people here that are closer to "expert" status on stuff like this, and I thought they might be able to clear up some misconceptions or otherwise add to our understanding.


*By the way, Percy, I'm really not trying to start anything with this thread - I respect your opinion, and I want your thoughts on this. I would have PM'd you directly, but I thought others might be able to benefit this way. (I detected some bitterness in your post...)

[rurounikitsune]

Jewish Encyclopedia:


The teachers of the synagogues, however, have never failed to point out to their cobelievers that the dispensation from vows in the "Kol Nidre" refers only to those which an individual voluntarily assumes for himself alone (see RoSH to Ned. 23b) and in which no other persons or their interests are involved. In other words, the formula is restricted to those vows which concern only the relation of man to his conscience or to his Heavenly Judge (see especially Tos. to Ned. 23b). In the opinion of Jewish teachers, therefore, the object of the "Kol Nidre" in declaring oaths null and void is to give protection from divine punishment in case of violation of the vow. No vow, promise, or oath, however, which concerns another person, a court of justice, or a community is implied in the "Kol Nidre." It must be remembered, moreover, that five geonim were against while only one was in favor of reciting the prayer (Zunz, "G. V." p. 390, note a), and furthermore that even so early an authority as Saadia wished to restrict it to those vows which were extorted from the congregation in the synagogue in times of persecution ("Kol Bo," l.c.); and he declared explicitly that the "Kol Nidre" gave no absolution from oaths which an individual had taken during the year. Judah ben Barzillai, a Spanish author of the twelfth century, in his halakic work "Sefer ha-'Ittim," declares that the custom of reciting the "Kol Nidre" was unjustifiable and misleading, since many ignorant persons believe that all their vows and oaths are annulled through this formula, and consequently they take such obligations on themselves carelessly ("Orḥot Ḥayyim," p. 106a).

For example, if someone vows to God to say his prayers every day and fails to fulfill it, during Kol Nidre one would ask for a dispensation from that vow.

However, if someone vows to another to repay a loan and fails to fulfill it, the Kol Nidre prayer has no bearing. One has broken his oath and cannot be given a dispensation based on saying Kol Nidre.

This is what the Jews' own commentary teaches. Of course that does not stop people from saying that the Jews are lying and that the prayer really means something else. However the average Jew is going to look at the same resources and come to the same conclusion as I just did so if there is a conspiracy, it doesn't seem likely that most of them are in on it.

[Book]

Its misunderstood by a certain select few mentally ill inviduals who, because of their chemical imbalance can only see black and white.


That kind of anti-Semitic talk is over the top Percival!

;D

[uranian]

well, i don't think i'm (that!) mentally ill. that reads to me as a more complicated way of saying "any promise i make at any time is meaningless". i agree that it's quite black and white, not a lot of room for manouver within the words.

i read that "It refers to vows assumed by an individual for himself alone, where no other persons or interests are involved. Though the context makes it perfectly obvious that no vows or obligations towards others are implied...", which seems to be saying both that the promises made by a person reciting the kol nidre are basically void (which seems to be more a waste of time than anything else, why make yourself a promise that you know you don't mean?), and that the context clearly states that. can anyone elucidate how the context makes the intended audience so obvious?

[uranian]

see RoSH to Ned. 23b

can we? i have no idea where to do so.

[Percival]

Its misunderstood by a certain select few mentally ill inviduals who, because of their chemical imbalance can only see black and white.


Haha!

What a rebuttal!

Since it's misunderstood, could you clear it up for us?

I'm trying to be objective - I just want to better my understanding, and I figured you might be able to help with that.


:)
There is nothing to know bro, its very simple, its the SAME as the Catholic confessional where you wipe away your sins and start over. The Kol Nidre has NOTHING to do with oaths or pledges made BETWEEN MEN, only those made between YOU AND GOD, the promised or oaths you made to GOD for THIS YEAR end on the Day of Atonement, all PERSONAL VOWS one made to ONESELF, like those made on NEW YEARS DAY for many, that could not be fullfilled and NULL AND VOID once the Kol Nidre has been recited on the DoA and then one starts with a clean plate and tries to do better the next year.


Why dont you actually go and speak to religious scholars about these things and quit reading this crap on the internet, its JUNK, its brainwshing you mean. There is nothing inherently wrong or evil abouyt Judaism, at least no more so than any other silly religion, I dont care for any of them personally.

[rurounikitsune]

see RoSH to Ned. 23b

can we? i have no idea where to do so.


Me neither. RoSH sounds like an acronym for a rabbi's name. Maybe Asher ben Jehiel. Nedarim 23b is a page of the Talmud. Tos is an abbreviation for Tosafot.

Most of the resources one would need to undertake a throrough study would probably be in Hebrew or German. If they've been translated they can be bought if they're still in print, but probably not found for free anywhere.

[dysgenic]

oh, my...




Its misunderstood by a certain select few mentally ill individuals who, because of their chemical imbalance can only see black and white.

[uranian]

so why doesn't it say "all vows we make to god", rather than "all vows we make"? looking at the catholic stuff, it starts off with "0 my god" (which i can entirely understand if you take any of this seriously).

(edited to revel in my new argent status)

[uranian]

Nedarim 23b is a page of the Talmud. Tos is an abbreviation for Tosafot.

nedarim 23b (http://www.israelect.com/Come-and-Hear/nedarim/nedarim_23.html) is easy to find:


Nedarim 23b
The text is defective, and this is what was taught: He who desires his friend to eat with him, and after urging him, imposes a vow upon him, it is 'a vow of incitement [and hence invalid]. And he who desires that none of his vows made during the year shall be valid, let him stand at the beginning of the year and declare, 'Every vow which I may make in the future shall be null.1 [HIS VOWS ARE THEN INVALID,] PROVIDING THAT HE REMEMBERS THIS AT THE TIME OF THE VOW. But if he remembers, he has cancelled the declaration and confirmed the vow?2 — Abaye answered: Read: providing that it is not remembered at the time of the vow. Raba said, After all, it is as we said originally.3 Here the circumstances are e.g., that one stipulated at the beginning of the year, but does not know in reference to what. Now he vows. Hence, if he remembers [the stipulation] and he declares: 'I vow in accordance with my original intention', his vow has no reality. But if he does not declare thus, he has cancelled his stipulation and confirmed his vow.

R. Huna b. Hinena wished to lecture thereon [sc. anticipatory cancellation] at the public session. But Raba remonstrated with him: The Tanna has intentionally obscured the law,4 in order that vows should not be lightly treated, whilst you desire to teach it publicly!

The scholars propounded: Do the Rabbis disagree with R. Eliezer b. Jacob or not?5 And should you say that they differ, is the halachah like him or not?6 — Come and hear: For we learnt: If one says to his neighbour,
- To Next Folio -
Original footnotes renumbered. See Structure of the Talmud Files

1. This may have provided a support for the custom of reciting Kol Nidre (a formula for dispensation of vows) prior to the Evening Service of the Day of Atonement (Ran.). The context makes it perfectly obvious that only vows, where the maker abjures benefit from aught. or imposes an interdict of his own property upon his neighbour, are referred to. V. J.E. s.v. Kol Nidre. Though the beginning of the year (New Year) is mentioned here, the Day of Atonement was probably chosen on account of its great solemnity. But Kol Nidre as part of the ritual is later than the Talmud, and, as seen from the following statement about R. Huna h. Hinena, the law of revocation in advance was not made public.
2. Since, when vowing. he knows of his previous declaration, he obviously disregards it. as otherwise he would not vow at all.
3. The received text is correct.
4. By giving a defective text. This implies that here, at least, the lacuna is not accidental, due to faulty transmission, but deliberate; cf. p. 2, n. 3.
5. But regard this as a binding vow.
6. Since the Mishnah teaches it as an individual opinion.


how it makes the intended audience (i.e. that the vows in the KN are meant to be those between god the and the person making the vow, rather than the person making the vow and anyone) obvious and clear is much less obvious and clear to me. indeed entirely not obvious.


what that text seems to be saying is that if you remember the KN vow at the time of making a new vow that you don't intend to keep, that's fine, but if you make a new vow but don't remember that you already vowed that all of your vows are meaningless, then you have to stick by the new vow.

[mamboni]

Its misunderstood by a certain select few mentally ill individuals who, because of their chemical imbalance can only see black and white.


And you're of some superior intellect that you proclaim yourslef an authority?

It [Kol Nidre] says:

"All personal vows we are likely to make, all personal oaths and pledges we are likely to take between this Yom Kippur and the next Yom Kippur, we publicly renounce. Let them all be relinquished and abandoned, null and void, neither firm nor established. Let our personal vows, pledges and oaths be considered neither vows nor pledges nor oaths."

There is no mention of God. There is no qualification as a 'spiritual' act only. This is written to nullify 'all personal oaths and pledges.' In other words, the oath taker has license to lie, cheat, steal and betray anyone outside of the Synagogue (i.e. the Goyum). Anyone who would take this oath is worthless as he has affirmed himself not bound by his honor, a promise or his word. A pirate or scalawag is to be preferred. Kol Nidre = Honor Amongst Thieves.

I need the Ignore function desperately. I've seen this crap before at a certain forum that shall not be named, and I don't want to see anymore of it.

[sirgonzo420]

There is nothing to know bro, its very simple, its the SAME as the Catholic confessional where you wipe away your sins and start over. The Kol Nidre has NOTHING to do with oaths or pledges made BETWEEN MEN, only those made between YOU AND GOD, the promised or oaths you made to GOD for THIS YEAR end on the Day of Atonement, all PERSONAL VOWS one made to ONESELF, like those made on NEW YEARS DAY for many, that could not be fullfilled and NULL AND VOID once the Kol Nidre has been recited on the DoA and then one starts with a clean plate and tries to do better the next year.

Ok, fair enough, but I'm still no fan of the catholic confessional... What is the point of making an oath (even to God or yourself) if you don't have to keep it? Or why should the catholic not sin when he can go and make it all go away at confession?

Also, didn't Kol Nidre used to be an "after-the-fact" type deal instead of a "preemptive" one? It seems to me that whoever decided to change it from the 'previous year' to the 'next year' was doing so to allow more leeway in breaking vows (even if only to oneself or God).


Why dont you actually go and speak to religious scholars about these things and quit reading this crap on the internet, its JUNK, its brainwshing you mean. There is nothing inherently wrong or evil abouyt Judaism, at least no more so than any other silly religion, I dont care for any of them personally.


I thought we did have some religious scholars on here?

I would go and find a synagogue or something, but I'm not entirely sure they would welcome me, and honestly, it's just easier to type and sit on my ass and ask you!

And I never said that jews are evil or anything. I just know that there are some jews in high places that aren't doing things in my best interests.


As for Kol Nidre, I just find it curious, and it was your response I was seeking out with this thread.

[Percival]

Im not a fan of it either, its all crap to me BUT it isnt what the haters make it out to be, IT IS A PERSONAL AND SPIRITUAL act only and has nothing to do with oaths made in a court of law or oaths taken between you and another PERSON.

It doesnt say that, as Mamboni points out, but ALL religions are left up to the interpretation of others, especially those who teach it and spend their lives studying it.

I have been around Jews my entire life, I went to Temple 5 days a week from the time I was a child until just after college when I realized all religions are sort of silly, I would NEVER lie to you SG420, I consider you a friend, we have spoken privately many times, you know me well enough to know I would never mislead or lie to you unless in jest. I have NEVER witnesses anywhere with my own eyes or in my own experience ANYONE in the Jewish religon, interpret the Kol Nidre any other way than the way I describe.

Now many will go on and say "Well yea youre just a porch Jew and you dont know what they do in those smokey back rooms out of sight of everyone else."

Well, see, to me thats mental illness and you need HELP.

[rurounikitsune]

There is no mention of God. There is no qualification as a 'spiritual' act only. This is written to nullify 'all personal oaths and pledges.' In other words, the oath taker has license to lie, cheat, steal and betray anyone outside of the Synagogue (i.e. the Goyum). Anyone who would take this oath is worthless as he has affirmed himself not bound by his honor, a promise or his word. A pirate or scalawag is to be preferred. Kol Nidre = Honor Amongst Thieves.


Mamboni,

Would you say that the text of the Kol Nidre stands separately and distinctly from the traditions and teachings that gave birth to it?

Would you forbid the religious authorities of that faith the opportunity to explain its meaning?

It seems pretty audacious to claim that one's interpretation of a certain prayer and its intention is superior to the interpretation of the authors of the prayer.

To repeat what I posted above, Rabbis teach that anyone who uses the Kol Nidre prayer to absolve himself of an oath that affects any other person, he should not be praying it because he does not understand it.

[dlm1968]

Ok, fair enough, but I'm still no fan of the catholic confessional... What is the point of making an oath (even to God or yourself) if you don't have to keep it? Or why should the catholic not sin when he can go and make it all go away at confession?




While a Catholic can go to confession and be forgiven, part of the promise you make to God in the confessional is that you will avoid the particular sin that you just confessed. It is not a free pass. In addition, there is a price to pay for your sins even though they have been forgiven.

[Percival]

Yes but Judaism has NO SIN, sin is a Christian concept, Judaism also has no heaven and hell. Youre comparing apples and organes. Think objectively.

[sirgonzo420]

Im not a fan of it either, its all crap to me BUT it isnt what the haters make it out to be, IT IS A PERSONAL AND SPIRITUAL act only and has nothing to do with oaths made in a court of law or oaths taken between you and another PERSON.

It doesnt say that, as Mamboni points out, but ALL religions are left up to the interpretation of others, especially those who teach it and spend their lives studying it.

I have been around Jews my entire life, I went to Temple 5 days a week from the time I was a child until just after college when I realized all religions are sort of silly, I would NEVER lie to you SG420, I consider you a friend, we have spoken privately many times, you know me well enough to know I would never mislead or lie to you unless in jest. I have NEVER witnesses anywhere with my own eyes or in my own experience ANYONE in the Jewish religon, interpret the Kol Nidre any other way than the way I describe.

Now many will go on and say "Well yea youre just a porch Jew and you dont know what they do in those smokey back rooms out of sight of everyone else."

Well, see, to me thats mental illness and you need HELP.


Ok. I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

Please try to understand my position. I see what Kol Nidre says, and from reading it, it appears to include ALL vows. I'm not saying that you're wrong - I'm just saying that they could have been a little more clear when they decided to formulate the prayer. The fact that they *weren't* clear leads many people to not trust jews. I wouldn't like to think you'd lie to me about it so I'll take you at your word. But surely you can understand why some people might find Kol Nidre to be dishonorable...? (even if only because they misunderstand)

You seemed a bit 'testy' when you first responded to this thread... but if a non-jew takes Kol Nidre at face value, it does seem sketchy.

[sirgonzo420]

Yes but Judaism has NO SIN, sin is a Christian concept, Judaism also has no heaven and hell. Youre comparing apples and organes. Think objectively.


Ok... explain this further please.

From the looks of it, "no sin" means jews can do no wrong...

[mamboni]

There is no mention of God. There is no qualification as a 'spiritual' act only. This is written to nullify 'all personal oaths and pledges.' In other words, the oath taker has license to lie, cheat, steal and betray anyone outside of the Synagogue (i.e. the Goyum). Anyone who would take this oath is worthless as he has affirmed himself not bound by his honor, a promise or his word. A pirate or scalawag is to be preferred. Kol Nidre = Honor Amongst Thieves.


Mamboni,

Would you say that the text of the Kol Nidre stands separately and distinctly from the traditions and teachings that gave birth to it?

Would you forbid the religious authorities of that faith the opportunity to explain its meaning?

It seems pretty audacious to claim that one's interpretation of a certain prayer and its intention is superior to the interpretation of the authors of the prayer.

To repeat what I posted above, Rabbis teach that anyone who uses the Kol Nidre prayer to absolve himself of an oath that affects any other person, he should not be praying it because he does not understand it.


Read it again, slowly.

It [Kol Nidre] says:

"All personal vows we are likely to make, all personal oaths and pledges we are likely to take between this Yom Kippur and the next Yom Kippur, we publicly renounce. Let them all be relinquished and abandoned, null and void, neither firm nor established. Let our personal vows, pledges and oaths be considered neither vows nor pledges nor oaths."

The words are English words, no? Do English words have a different meaning when used
by Jews vis-a-vis Goyum? The wording is quite clear. I have no disposition to interpret it in a way that serves Jews at the expense of non-Jews. Maybe the Rabbis should change the wording to be more clear about it's meaning and intent. Why is 'public' in the prayer?

BTW, the Roman Catholic confessional does not absolve, nullify or comment upon one way or the other any secular contracts, oaths or promises that the confessioner might be bound by.

[rurounikitsune]

Mamboni, the prayer was not written in English.

If you want to make this about the meaning of individual words, tell me the meaning of the original words in Aramaic, or Hebrew, or whatever the original language was, because they almost certainly do not have the same semantic range as the english words you highlighted.

Medical language, as with all scientific language, is very precise. It is designed so that one physician speaking to another will be able to communicate a concept in very concrete terms. There are no abstractions. Everything is named, qualified and measured. But someone else listening on your conversation might have no idea what you are saying.

The language of the Talmud was meant to be passed down orally from a Rabbi to a disciple. It comes with a vast amount of cultural context. Reading a translation outside of that context, and then proclaiming that you know what it means, is not a scholarly way to approach a study of this prayer.

To make matters worse, Mishnaic Hebrew is certainly not concrete or scientific language - the Talmud is the languge of legalese. Frequently, words or even long phrases are left out as the writer assumes the reader has a basic level of knowledge - and by "basic" I mean a level that is actually quite comprehensive. It is impossible to understand, nor was it meant to be understood, without a competent teacher.

[Percival]

Yes but Judaism has NO SIN, sin is a Christian concept, Judaism also has no heaven and hell. Youre comparing apples and organes. Think objectively.


Ok... explain this further please.

From the looks of it, "no sin" means jews can do no wrong...


No thats YOU looking at it from your Christian POV, yes I understand youre not a Christian but you were still brought up with Christian ideals. Jews have an entirely different concept of sin and its more about honor than right and wrong. If you seriously have met any large number of Jews you will see that they are generally very kind and honorable people, they are not all Howard Stern.

Also he is right above, you cant understand that prayer in English the way it was ment to be read and understood in Hebrew.


The same goes for Poe's work, "The Raven" do you think such beautiful English verse would make any sense in Chinese? It would lose all its meaning and everything it stands for. Youre smart enough to understand that.

[mamboni]

Mamboni, the prayer was not written in English.

If you want to make this about the meaning of individual words, tell me the meaning of the original words in Aramaic, or Hebrew, or whatever the original language was, because they almost certainly do not have the same semantic range as the english words you highlighted.

Medical language, as with all scientific language, is very precise. It is designed so that one physician speaking to another will be able to communicate a concept in very concrete terms. There are no abstractions. Everything is named, qualified and measured. But someone else listening on your conversation might have no idea what you are saying.

The language of the Talmud was meant to be passed down orally from a Rabbi to a disciple. It comes with a vast amount of cultural context. Reading a translation outside of that context, and then proclaiming that you know what it means, is not a scholarly way to approach a study of this prayer.

To make matters worse, Mishnaic Hebrew is certainly not concrete or scientific language - the Talmud is the languge of legalese. Frequently, words or even long phrases are left out as the writer assumes the reader has a basic level of knowledge - and by "basic" I mean a level that is actually quite comprehensive. It is impossible to understand, nor was it meant to be understood, without a competent teacher.


In other words the Jews want to have their cake and eat it too: "It means this, or it means that, depending on the context, and how it best serves my interests."

Anyone who would even claim the option to take this oath should be disqualified from holding public office, practicing medicine or entering into any legal contract or secular oath, because his words are worthless. His intent is to deceive.

Are you familar with the expression "without mental reservation?" There is a reason this is incorporated into the most serious oaths.

[sirgonzo420]

No thats YOU looking at it from your Christian POV, yes I understand youre not a Christian but you were still brought up with Christian ideals. Jews have an entirely different concept of sin and its more about honor than right and wrong. If you seriously have met any large number of Jews you will see that they are generally very kind and honorable people, they are not all Howard Stern.


It's not necessarily how *I* see it, but it's how I imagine others might.

If there is no "sin" for jews, why must they keep kosher? If they don't keep kosher, do they violate something? (committing what a non-jew might call a sin)

Care to elaborate on the jews' notion of right/wrong?

[uranian]

The same goes for Poe's work, "The Raven" do you think such beautiful English verse would make any sense in Chinese? It would lose all its meaning and everything it stands for.

agreed that translation is an art rather than a science, but i think it can be done. this is a translation from mandarin to english, judged reasonable by tao scholars:


The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
The named is the mother of myriad things
Thus, constantly without desire, one observes its essence
Constantly with desire, one observes its manifestations
These two emerge together but differ in name
The unity is said to be the mystery
Mystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders

it retains its beauty, clarity and meaning. i don't see that can't be done with the kol nidre.

[JDRock]

Yes but Judaism has NO SIN, sin is a Christian concept, Judaism also has no heaven and hell. Youre comparing apples and organes. Think objectively.


it also has no right or wrong huh?.....( roll eyes as there are STILL no smileys)

do you have a CLUE how many times sin is mentioned in the ot??? ( banghead smiley)

There is no TALMUDIC right or wrong.... ANY sheenie can lie steal from or murder in cold blood ANY gentile for ANY reason..( just go to judicial.org for a clue)

And they feel moral SUPERIORITY while in the act of such behavior...just see gaza and palastine..

[Percival]

The concept of sin, which is khate or khaw-taw in Hebrew, is completely different than what you see sin as, in the Christian world.


Judaism doesnt really make much of the concept of an afterlife and is more focused on ACTION over BELIEF so their idea of sin is completely different than what you know it to be.

I am not going to argue with you JD because thats all youre here for, you have no intention at all of having an honest discussion so you can piss off.

[uranian]

Jews regard the violation of any of the divine commandments to be a sin. Judaism teaches that sin is an act, and not a state of being. The following are the first 10 of 613 commandments and their source in scripture, as enumerated by Maimonides:

1. To know there is a God Ex. 20:2
2. Not to even think that there are other gods besides Him Ex. 20:2
3. To know that He is One Deut. 6:4
4. To love Him Deut. 6:5
5. To fear Him Deut. 10:20
6. To sanctify His Name Lev. 22:32
7. Not to profane His Name Lev. 22:32
8. Not to destroy objects associated with His Name Deut. 12:4
9. To listen to the prophet speaking in His Name Deut. 18:15
10. Not to test the prophet unduly Deut. 6:16


That all sounds very similar to xtianity. i know christians believe that they are sinful from birth (i.e. a state of being), so it has an added side of sin compared to judaism, but nevertheless, it looks from all this stuff from wiki that the jewish version of sin is the same as the christian, without the idea that a person is inherently a sinner due to their very existence.

[rurounikitsune]

In other words the Jews want to have their cake and eat it too: "It means this, or it means that, depending on the context, and how it best serves my interests."

Anyone who would even claim the option to take this oath should be disqualified from holding public office, practicing medicine or entering into any legal contract or secular oath, because his words are worthless. His intent is to deceive.

Are you familar with the expression "without mental reservation?" There is a reason this is incorporated into the most serious oaths.


Mamboni,

It appears we are going to have to agree to disagree, as you seem too busy to deal with my position as I have presented it.

However, I promise (without mental reservation) not to attempt major surgery on any innocent children after reading a copy of a translation of a snippet of Lehrbuch Der Chirurgie Und Orthopädie Des Kindesalters.

I hope someday you will come to have the same respect for the study of religion as you have for the study of medicine.

[rurounikitsune]

it retains its beauty, clarity and meaning. i don't see that can't be done with the kol nidre.


Yes, a translation can be great, and can retain beauty, clarity, and meaning, but to draw a legally binding (in the sense of Jewish religious law) conclusion from it, it is only reasonable to expect the person analyzing the text to have a working knowledge of the original language.

Imagine reading a law code but skipping the definitions of the words at the beginning. Any of the legal eagles on GSUS will tell you that there is a difference between words that a normal or uneducated person would consider synonyms. A translation of the law code might successfully preserve these distinctions. Or it might not. Most translations are a compromise between accuracy and readability.

[uranian]

all of these arguments boil down to, if you're not jewish, you can't understand. an effective defence. i'm trying to think of any other religious/philosophical system that posits rather obscene ideas (such as the KN appears to be) and then defends them by saying ah, you are just ignorant of our ways, you just don't understand.

[Book]

To repeat what I posted above, Rabbis teach that anyone who uses the Kol Nidre prayer to absolve himself of an oath that affects any other person, he should not be praying it because he does not understand it.


http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Business/images-2/bernard-madoff-portrait.jpg

Bernie says your check is in the mail buddy. Just like he promised!

:o

[Percival]

you have no intention at all of having an honest discussion so you can piss off.

Percival - keep it cool. This isn't the last time you'll be baited on this forum.

Ok man, no problem.

[Book]

Yes but Judaism has NO SIN, sin is a Christian concept, Judaism also has no heaven and hell. Youre comparing apples and organes. Think objectively.


Please talk more about this Percival. Seems kinda cool if we can escape all punishment after we die.

:o

[Bullion_Bob]

Religious whackology good for the soul they say.

Kids, draw the line at bad touch.

[rurounikitsune]

all of these arguments boil down to, if you're not jewish, you can't understand. an effective defence. i'm trying to think of any other religious/philosophical system that posits rather obscene ideas (such as the KN appears to be) and then defends them by saying ah, you are just ignorant of our ways, you just don't understand.


No, no, you don't have to be Jewish. Hell, I'm not Jewish. You just have to read, a lot, and ask questions of people who are fluent in the original language. In a sense, all research is relying on experts. People expect religion to be accessible and easy - well it's not, not any more than any other discipline. It's a comprehensive study of thousands of years of philosophy, thought, and revelation.

I just think it's unfair to point the finger at Jews and say, "Why do you absolve yourselves of all oaths!" and when they reply, "We don't! Only personal oaths to God, that don't affect other people!" We say back, "HA, you're lying!"

Who else has the guts to tell someone else what he means when he's praying?

[rurounikitsune]

Bernie says your check is in the mail buddy. Just like he promised!

:o




Not sure where this is coming from.

Do I have to restate it?

If a Jew breaks an oath on purpose in order to rip people off, and expects some Kol Nidre prayer to protect him, he's going to get Divine judgment for oppressing the poor and stranger, and for theft. That's what I'm saying. Bernie Madoff and any other Jew that steals from innocent people is going to receive the due punishment for his sins, unless he repents and changes his ways.

Same goes for anyone of any faith.

[sirgonzo420]

Bernie says your check is in the mail buddy. Just like he promised!

:o




Not sure where this is coming from.

Do I have to restate it?

If a Jew breaks an oath on purpose in order to rip people off, and expects some Kol Nidre prayer to protect him, he's going to get Divine judgment for oppressing the poor and stranger, and for theft. That's what I'm saying. Bernie Madoff and any other Jew that steals from innocent people is going to receive the due punishment for his sins, unless he repents and changes his ways.

Same goes for anyone of any faith.


It would be handy if the Kol Nidre prayer were (or the english translation at least) more clear as to the nature of the voided vows.

[gunDriller]

Here's a little bit from wikipedia:
wikipedia.org/wiki/Kol_Nidre

What say you?


Let Civilization Celebrate Kol Nidre by Renouncing all Debts owed to Zionists world wide.

sounds like a great idea ! 8)

[Percival]

Bernie says your check is in the mail buddy. Just like he promised!

:o




Not sure where this is coming from.

Do I have to restate it?

If a Jew breaks an oath on purpose in order to rip people off, and expects some Kol Nidre prayer to protect him, he's going to get Divine judgment for oppressing the poor and stranger, and for theft. That's what I'm saying. Bernie Madoff and any other Jew that steals from innocent people is going to receive the due punishment for his sins, unless he repents and changes his ways.

Same goes for anyone of any faith.


Youre speaking to people who have their minds made up, even though they have NEVER spoken to a Rabbi about it or even attended a service to experience it, that the KN is evil and its only purpose is to allow Jews to rip off people. I know its absurd but they have their minds up about this and no amont of education will change their minds.


What you have said is EXACTLY true though.

[Book]

Not sure where this is coming from.

Do I have to restate it?

If a Jew breaks an oath on purpose in order to rip people off, and expects some Kol Nidre prayer to protect him, he's going to get Divine judgment for oppressing the poor and stranger, and for theft. That's what I'm saying. Bernie Madoff and any other Jew that steals from innocent people is going to receive the due punishment for his sins, unless he repents and changes his ways.

Same goes for anyone of any faith.


Just read what our resident Rabbi just wrote. Bernie Madoff get's off scott free:



Yes but Judaism has NO SIN, sin is a Christian concept, Judaism also has no heaven and hell. Youre comparing apples and organes. Think objectively.


Looks like us goyim are screwed...lol.

[mamboni]

Bernie says your check is in the mail buddy. Just like he promised!

:o




Not sure where this is coming from.

Do I have to restate it?

If a Jew breaks an oath on purpose in order to rip people off, and expects some Kol Nidre prayer to protect him, he's going to get Divine judgment for oppressing the poor and stranger, and for theft. That's what I'm saying. Bernie Madoff and any other Jew that steals from innocent people is going to receive the due punishment for his sins, unless he repents and changes his ways.

Same goes for anyone of any faith.



So We've got your assurance that that this interpretation is authoritative and comes straight from the rabbi and we can take it all the way to bank.

[sirgonzo420]

Youre speaking to people who have their minds made up, even though they have NEVER spoken to a Rabbi about it or even attended a service to experience it, that the KN is evil and its only purpose is to allow Jews to rip off people. I know its absurd but they have their minds up about this and no amont of education will change their minds.


What you have said is EXACTLY true though.


Perhaps you weren't referring to me, but I don't "have my mind made up"; I am open to new ideas.

I am skeptical of many/most things, but I am also curious by nature.

I'm sorry if I 'poke' or 'prod' you, or say things that, from the look of it, offend you greatly - I am only trying to get a better understanding (whether about freemasonry, Kol Nidre, judaism/the jewish people in general, or whatever else).

[Percival]

No not you at all you are just curious and open minded, but clearly you can see where many others here have made their mind up and nothing I or anyone else says will change it, we will just be called SHILLS or ADL agents out to hide sh*t from them. Its a no win situation and makes me tired to keep typing it all out to them when it does no good, I wouldnt even bother if it were for you and your sincere desire to try and understand it.

I am not offended at all by anything you poke and prod about, keep it coming I enjoy the disccusion, but I do get a little offended at being called a "sheenie" 20 times a day and accused of spreading my "sheenie urine" all over the forum and at those who, no matter what you say, are convinced youre lying and covering shit up because their crazy ass extremist christian websites tell them al Jews are bad.


Speaking of which, no TRUE CHRISTIAN would ever bash Jews, so its ironic that many of those doing so around here are trying to convince others that they are true Christians. They are anything but.

[Book]

Its a no win situation and makes me tired to keep typing it all out to them when it does no good...


Got a link to all your gold and silver section posts handy Percival?

:D

[Percival]

I dont post much about them, which is obviously your point, to what end I have no clue. I am not interested in talking about gold and silver, whats to be said, I buy them hand over fist and stack em in the safe. What else is there to talk about?

I enjoy general discussion, do you have a problem with that Bookie?

[sirgonzo420]

No not you at all you are just curious and open minded, but clearly you can see where many others here have made their mind up and nothing I or anyone else says will change it, we will just be called SHILLS or ADL agents out to hide sh*t from them. Its a no win situation and makes me tired to keep typing it all out to them when it does no good, I wouldnt even bother if it were for you and your sincere desire to try and understand it.


I appreciate your efforts.

If ever you'd like to take the discussion private, we can do that. Of course, you owe me no explanation - but the lack of explanation of certain judaic practices contributes to what you might call "anti-semitism". Of course, it does not help that many people who call themselves jews control (or at least have huuuge influence in) government(s), banking, academia, and the media.

[sirgonzo420]

Its a no win situation and makes me tired to keep typing it all out to them when it does no good...


Got a link to all your gold and silver section posts handy Percival?

:D


Do you have a link to yours?

LOL. Seriously.. now that I think of it, I don't recall seeing many gold/silver posts from you.


(it's ok... I'm all about the GD)

[mamboni]

No not you at all you are just curious and open minded, but clearly you can see where many others here have made their mind up and nothing I or anyone else says will change it, we will just be called SHILLS or ADL agents out to hide sh*t from them. Its a no win situation and makes me tired to keep typing it all out to them when it does no good, I wouldnt even bother if it were for you and your sincere desire to try and understand it.

I am not offended at all by anything you poke and prod about, keep it coming I enjoy the disccusion, but I do get a little offended at being called a "sheenie" 20 times a day and accused of spreading my "sheenie urine" all over the forum and at those who, no matter what you say, are convinced youre lying and covering sh*t up because their crazy ass extremist christian websites tell them al Jews are bad.


Speaking of which, no TRUE CHRISTIAN would ever bash Jews, so its ironic that many of those doing so around here are trying to convince others that they are true Christians. They are anything but.


This is the kind of hyperbole and diatribe that I object to. You are the one making all these generalizations, attacking Christians obliquely. You cannot resist lacing your cries of persecution with imaginary name calling. Who here has called you ‘sheenie.?’ We’re supposed to take you seriously when you claim to be called ‘sheenie’ twenty times a day? And accordingly to you, hate towards Jews emanates from Christian web sites? Who the hell do you think you are, making these vast generalizations without any basis whatsoever. You are the one who is full of hatred towards Christians. You are the one dragging this discussion and this forum into the proverbial gutter.

And for the record, I am agnostic – I don’t subscribe to ancient superstitions.

[rurounikitsune]

So We've got your assurance that that this interpretation is authoritative and comes straight from the rabbi and we can take it all the way to bank.


Mamboni,

Not being legally Jewish, much less a Rabbi, I can't speak with authority on Jewish law, though the Jewish Encyclopedia (online and easy to get to) references several well-established authorities which explicitly condemn the use of Kol Nidre in an attempt to absolve one's self of an oath that would affect any other person. I would encourage you to ask a Rabbi if you want an direct, personal answer from a legal authority. This is extremely easy to do. There are websites where you can chat live with a Rabbi. Ask a halachic question, and word it correctly, and I bet the Rabbi will assume you are Jewish and give you the standard answer they would give to anyone else who is "in the club." If the Rabbi tells you it's all right to screw people over, let us know. Make sure you're talking to an Orthodox rabbi though. They are the only ones who care about the legal ramifications of such an old prayer.

If there are Rabbis out there who say it is okay to rip people off and then Kol Nidre will absolve the con artist, I totally disagree with them. I am just trying to point out that historically, most Rabbis would also disagree. Please understand that in the post you quoted, I was defending myself from Book's accusation that I personally am in favor of thievery and am being paid to support it.

[rurounikitsune]

Let Civilization Celebrate Kol Nidre by Renouncing all Debts owed to Zionists world wide.

sounds like a great idea ! 8)


You're spot on. The time Kol Nidre was recited was during the same time of year the Jubilee year started.

Let's forgive ALL debts, and again in fifty years in case the bastards find a way to ring them up again!

[mamboni]

So We've got your assurance that that this interpretation is authoritative and comes straight from the rabbi and we can take it all the way to bank.


Mamboni,

Not being legally Jewish, much less a Rabbi, I can't speak with authority on Jewish law, though the Jewish Encyclopedia (online and easy to get to) references several well-established authorities which explicitly condemn the use of Kol Nidre in an attempt to absolve one's self of an oath that would affect any other person. I would encourage you to ask a Rabbi if you want an direct, personal answer from a legal authority. This is extremely easy to do. There are websites where you can chat live with a Rabbi. Ask a halachic question, and word it correctly, and I bet the Rabbi will assume you are Jewish and give you the standard answer they would give to anyone else who is "in the club." If the Rabbi tells you it's all right to screw people over, let us know. Make sure you're talking to an Orthodox rabbi though. They are the only ones who care about the legal ramifications of such an old prayer.

If there are Rabbis out there who say it is okay to rip people off and then Kol Nidre will absolve the con artist, I totally disagree with them. I am just trying to point out that historically, most Rabbis would also disagree. Please understand that in the post you quoted, I was defending myself from Book's accusation that I personally am in favor of thievery and am being paid to support it.


Of course I will take you on your word. What you say comes from the heart – that is apparent. For the record, I have a great affection and admiration for Jews and the Jewish people, as they have constituted an overwhelmingly positive and rewarding place in my personal life. Sadly, I cannot extend said admiration for Israel and Zionists, or the many American Jews who have embraced greed and materialism in lieu of veneration of Judaism’s ancient moral and ethical teachings.

[Unobtainium]

For the record, I have a great affection and admiration for Jews and the Jewish people, as they have constituted an overwhelmingly positive and rewarding place in my personal life. Sadly, I cannot extend said admiration for Israel and Zionists, or the many American Jews who have embraced greed and materialism in lieu of veneration of Judaism’s ancient moral and ethical teachings.

Very well put, Mamboni. My experiences also viv-a-vis Jews has always been a positive one. Those among our populace who abandon aforementioned moral and ethical principals our generally those who are sociopathic and/or psychopathic, and they come from all races and religions.
Zionism as an ideology was vehemently rejected by the mass of Judaism at the time of its creation 150 or so years ago. Present day rejection of it is, in fact, keeping with the moral tenets of ancient Judiasm, not the false politicized Judaism we see today. The damage which Zionist ideology has caused the world today is incalculable.

[Book]

Tell us more about what you said earlier about Jews not believing in sin or heaven/hell please.

:)

[Percival]

No not you at all you are just curious and open minded, but clearly you can see where many others here have made their mind up and nothing I or anyone else says will change it, we will just be called SHILLS or ADL agents out to hide sh*t from them. Its a no win situation and makes me tired to keep typing it all out to them when it does no good, I wouldnt even bother if it were for you and your sincere desire to try and understand it.

I am not offended at all by anything you poke and prod about, keep it coming I enjoy the disccusion, but I do get a little offended at being called a "sheenie" 20 times a day and accused of spreading my "sheenie urine" all over the forum and at those who, no matter what you say, are convinced youre lying and covering sh*t up because their crazy ass extremist christian websites tell them al Jews are bad.


Speaking of which, no TRUE CHRISTIAN would ever bash Jews, so its ironic that many of those doing so around here are trying to convince others that they are true Christians. They are anything but.


This is the kind of hyperbole and diatribe that I object to. You are the one making all these generalizations, attacking Christians obliquely. You cannot resist lacing your cries of persecution with imaginary name calling. Who here has called you ‘sheenie.?’ We’re supposed to take you seriously when you claim to be called ‘sheenie’ twenty times a day? And accordingly to you, hate towards Jews emanates from Christian web sites? Who the hell do you think you are, making these vast generalizations without any basis whatsoever. You are the one who is full of hatred towards Christians. You are the one dragging this discussion and this forum into the proverbial gutter.

And for the record, I am agnostic – I don’t subscribe to ancient superstitions.



Incorrect. I have been quite polite and on point and have carried on honest discussion for several days now until JDROCK started calling me Sheenie in every post and you started on the attack.

JD is the one with the hyperbole and diatribe calling me and my people sheenies who are spreading our sheenie urine all over this forum. Yea, how would you like that. I didnt call him any names but I may start, there are plenty of names for people who believe the crap he does including "racist asshole."

I agree with what you say about Jewish people and yes indeed SOME Zionists are indeed assholes and their agenda flawed, but not all of them are so.

Also, it is no exageration, if you go look most, yes a MAJORITY of antisemitic websites are indeed run by radical Christians or at least they claim to be so. Go look.

I also have no hatred at all for Christians, meaning those who walk the walk Jesus himself did, sadly the institution of Christianity, as we know it today, is anything but that.

[Book]

Well, see, to me thats mental illness and you need HELP.


What's with the name-calling of those you disagree with? Don't be a hater Percival.

:)

[sirgonzo420]

Incorrect. I have been quite polite and on point and have carried on honest discussion for several days now until JDROCK started calling me Sheenie in every post and you started on the attack.


I agree with what you say about Jewish people and yes indeed SOME Zionists are indeed assholes and their agenda flawed, but not all of them are so.

Also, it is no exageration, if you go look most, yes a MAJORITY of antisemitic websites are indeed run by radical Christians or at least they claim to be so. Go look.

I also have no hatred at all for Christians, meaning those who walk the walk Jesus himself did, sadly the institution of Christianity, as we know it today, is anything but that.


I agree with you that the name calling is not exactly necessary...

Anywhere, here is a post I made in the 'mason' thread, but I feel it is more appropriate here:

To be fair, there are many people who claim to be REAL JEWS who spit upon christians...

I have no dog in this fight - I'm neither a jew nor a christian - but I've heard that christians are not exactly well received in Israel. Can you give insight? How do jews really feel about christians and other non-jews (goyim)? I'm serious.

[Goldridge]

As a man of Jewish heritage, and a newcomer here, I must say I find this thread offensive. I read the rules, and found them refreshing. I refer mainly to #1 - "Be respectful to everyone on the board....Keep conversation on an intelligent level." I'm not sure how posting anti-Jewish garbage is respectful to everyone on the board. I doubt I'm the only Jew here. And an anti-Zionist one at that! Stuff like this lead to the Holocaust, and is hardly "intelligent." I see other threads locked, so I nominate this one, too.

[NOOB]

So We've got your assurance that that this interpretation is authoritative and comes straight from the rabbi and we can take it all the way to bank.


Mamboni,

Not being legally Jewish, much less a Rabbi, I can't speak with authority on Jewish law, though the Jewish Encyclopedia (online and easy to get to) references several well-established authorities which explicitly condemn the use of Kol Nidre in an attempt to absolve one's self of an oath that would affect any other person. I would encourage you to ask a Rabbi if you want an direct, personal answer from a legal authority. This is extremely easy to do. There are websites where you can chat live with a Rabbi. Ask a halachic question, and word it correctly, and I bet the Rabbi will assume you are Jewish and give you the standard answer they would give to anyone else who is "in the club." If the Rabbi tells you it's all right to screw people over, let us know. Make sure you're talking to an Orthodox rabbi though. They are the only ones who care about the legal ramifications of such an old prayer.

If there are Rabbis out there who say it is okay to rip people off and then Kol Nidre will absolve the con artist, I totally disagree with them. I am just trying to point out that historically, most Rabbis would also disagree. Please understand that in the post you quoted, I was defending myself from Book's accusation that I personally am in favor of thievery and am being paid to support it.



I have never been legally jewish but I have been royally drunk.

What the hell is legally jewish ?

[Goldridge]

Its misunderstood by a certain select few mentally ill inviduals who, because of their chemical imbalance can only see black and white.


Haha!

What a rebuttal!

Since it's misunderstood, could you clear it up for us?

I'm trying to be objective - I just want to better my understanding, and I figured you might be able to help with that.


:)


If you're truly trying to be objective, how about citing an objective source? An objective source Wikipedia is not.

[NOOB]

As a man of Jewish heritage, and a newcomer here, I must say I find this thread offensive. I read the rules, and found them refreshing. I refer mainly to #1 - "Be respectful to everyone on the board....Keep conversation on an intelligent level." I'm not sure how posting anti-Jewish garbage is respectful to everyone on the board. I doubt I'm the only Jew here. And an anti-Zionist one at that! Stuff like this lead to the Holocaust, and is hardly "intelligent." I see other threads locked, so I nominate this one, too.



Percival??? You haven't started with the puppets already have you?

[Goldridge]

As a man of Jewish heritage, and a newcomer here, I must say I find this thread offensive. I read the rules, and found them refreshing. I refer mainly to #1 - "Be respectful to everyone on the board....Keep conversation on an intelligent level." I'm not sure how posting anti-Jewish garbage is respectful to everyone on the board. I doubt I'm the only Jew here. And an anti-Zionist one at that! Stuff like this lead to the Holocaust, and is hardly "intelligent." I see other threads locked, so I nominate this one, too.



Percival??? You haven't started with the puppets already have you?


I'll take that as a personal attack, as it is an attack on my integrity. I am myself, and no other. I am not Percival.

[Percival]

As a man of Jewish heritage, and a newcomer here, I must say I find this thread offensive. I read the rules, and found them refreshing. I refer mainly to #1 - "Be respectful to everyone on the board....Keep conversation on an intelligent level." I'm not sure how posting anti-Jewish garbage is respectful to everyone on the board. I doubt I'm the only Jew here. And an anti-Zionist one at that! Stuff like this lead to the Holocaust, and is hardly "intelligent." I see other threads locked, so I nominate this one, too.
Welcome my friend, I am with you on that! I dont think it should be locked yet but I think a few people need some warnings from the mods perhaps even including myself but in any case I agree, the anti Jew crap is a little over the top IMO.

[sirgonzo420]

As a man of Jewish heritage, and a newcomer here, I must say I find this thread offensive. I read the rules, and found them refreshing. I refer mainly to #1 - "Be respectful to everyone on the board....Keep conversation on an intelligent level." I'm not sure how posting anti-Jewish garbage is respectful to everyone on the board. I doubt I'm the only Jew here. And an anti-Zionist one at that! Stuff like this lead to the Holocaust, and is hardly "intelligent." I see other threads locked, so I nominate this one, too.


How is attempting to understand judaism "anti-jewish"?

[Goldridge]

The anti-Jewish myth that Kol Nidre is a release of all promises made by any Jew is a lie long in the making, and is equivalent to the lie that Jews slaughter Gentile babies for Passover.

Are anti-Black slanders permitted here? "All Blacks want to rape White women"? Are are anti-Catholic slanders permitted here? "All Catholic priests diddle boys"? Are anti-Gay slanders permitted here? "All homosexuals are pedophiles"? I HOPE NOT! And if not, then why is this anti-Jewish garbage, based on zero evidence, allowed?

[Percival]

Incorrect. I have been quite polite and on point and have carried on honest discussion for several days now until JDROCK started calling me Sheenie in every post and you started on the attack.


I agree with what you say about Jewish people and yes indeed SOME Zionists are indeed assholes and their agenda flawed, but not all of them are so.

Also, it is no exageration, if you go look most, yes a MAJORITY of antisemitic websites are indeed run by radical Christians or at least they claim to be so. Go look.

I also have no hatred at all for Christians, meaning those who walk the walk Jesus himself did, sadly the institution of Christianity, as we know it today, is anything but that.


I agree with you that the name calling is not exactly necessary...

Anywhere, here is a post I made in the 'mason' thread, but I feel it is more appropriate here:

To be fair, there are many people who claim to be REAL JEWS who spit upon christians...

I have no dog in this fight - I'm neither a jew nor a christian - but I've heard that christians are not exactly well received in Israel. Can you give insight? How do jews really feel about christians and other non-jews (goyim)? I'm serious.
I really dont know how to answer that bro, I mean I can only speak for myself and I personally have no ill will towards Christians unless they happen to be of the white supremacisat variety, those neo nazi types often claim to be Christian and I dont see how their ideology fits in any way with what Jesus teaches but what do I know. I can honestly say in my years in the Jewish community I have never once heard any Jewish person speak ill of Christians, I have heard some pretty bad jokes but nothing that I would consider hateful towards Christians or Christianity. I think there is some resentment about the whole Messiah thing since Jews believe very strongly that the Messiah has NOT arrived yet and Christians commonly throw it in the Jews face that the Messiah is already here and they missed the boat, id be pissed off too if I heard that from every Christian I came in contact with.

[Brent]

If you don't like the way the forum is run you are welcome to leave.

Or you could stay and continue to whine and cry in the hope that someone, somewhere will care.

[Goldridge]

As a man of Jewish heritage, and a newcomer here, I must say I find this thread offensive. I read the rules, and found them refreshing. I refer mainly to #1 - "Be respectful to everyone on the board....Keep conversation on an intelligent level." I'm not sure how posting anti-Jewish garbage is respectful to everyone on the board. I doubt I'm the only Jew here. And an anti-Zionist one at that! Stuff like this lead to the Holocaust, and is hardly "intelligent." I see other threads locked, so I nominate this one, too.


How is attempting to understand judaism "anti-jewish"?




You are not attempting to "understand Judaism," because what you claim is not part of Judaism. It's part of Nazism, maybe, but not Judaism.

Is it fair to claim you're "trying to understand Catholicism" by studying pedophiles? That would be an outrageous and unfair slander. Or is it just Jewish things that get slammed unfairly here?

Again, I call for this thread to be locked, even erased, based on Rule #1. This is an attack on every Jew at this forum.

[Percival]

As a man of Jewish heritage, and a newcomer here, I must say I find this thread offensive. I read the rules, and found them refreshing. I refer mainly to #1 - "Be respectful to everyone on the board....Keep conversation on an intelligent level." I'm not sure how posting anti-Jewish garbage is respectful to everyone on the board. I doubt I'm the only Jew here. And an anti-Zionist one at that! Stuff like this lead to the Holocaust, and is hardly "intelligent." I see other threads locked, so I nominate this one, too.


How is attempting to understand judaism "anti-jewish"?


YOU want to understand Judaism, but dude youre not blind you need to at least admit that you see many others who have no intention of trying to have an honest discussion and only want to keep going on and on that Jews are bad, evil people. Iam not going to start pissing match and name names but they are here and they were on GIM its the same group.

[Percival]

As a man of Jewish heritage, and a newcomer here, I must say I find this thread offensive. I read the rules, and found them refreshing. I refer mainly to #1 - "Be respectful to everyone on the board....Keep conversation on an intelligent level." I'm not sure how posting anti-Jewish garbage is respectful to everyone on the board. I doubt I'm the only Jew here. And an anti-Zionist one at that! Stuff like this lead to the Holocaust, and is hardly "intelligent." I see other threads locked, so I nominate this one, too.



Percival??? You haven't started with the puppets already have you?


I'll take that as a personal attack, as it is an attack on my integrity. I am myself, and no other. I am not Percival.



Indeed this person isnt me but I agree with him/her. Mods are free to check IPs if they need to, go for it.

[Goldridge]

If you don't like the way the forum is run you are welcome to leave.

Or you could stay and continue to whine and cry in the hopes someone, somewhere will care.


I like the stated rules; I'm only surprised to see they're apparently not being enforced in this thread.

Isn't that neo-Nazi Gerald L.K. Smith in your avatar?

[Percival]

So We've got your assurance that that this interpretation is authoritative and comes straight from the rabbi and we can take it all the way to bank.


Mamboni,

Not being legally Jewish, much less a Rabbi, I can't speak with authority on Jewish law, though the Jewish Encyclopedia (online and easy to get to) references several well-established authorities which explicitly condemn the use of Kol Nidre in an attempt to absolve one's self of an oath that would affect any other person. I would encourage you to ask a Rabbi if you want an direct, personal answer from a legal authority. This is extremely easy to do. There are websites where you can chat live with a Rabbi. Ask a halachic question, and word it correctly, and I bet the Rabbi will assume you are Jewish and give you the standard answer they would give to anyone else who is "in the club." If the Rabbi tells you it's all right to screw people over, let us know. Make sure you're talking to an Orthodox rabbi though. They are the only ones who care about the legal ramifications of such an old prayer.

If there are Rabbis out there who say it is okay to rip people off and then Kol Nidre will absolve the con artist, I totally disagree with them. I am just trying to point out that historically, most Rabbis would also disagree. Please understand that in the post you quoted, I was defending myself from Book's accusation that I personally am in favor of thievery and am being paid to support it.



I have never been legally jewish but I have been royally drunk.

What the hell is legally jewish ?
Iwould say that someone who is legally Jewish, that is to say one who meets the requirements of being a Jew, accoring to OT Law is one whose mother is Jewish. If you are born to a Jewish mother you autmatically qualify for certain entitlements in Israel etc. Just having a Jewish father is not the same.

[Brent]

If you don't like the way the forum is run you are welcome to leave.

Or you could stay and continue to whine and cry in the hopes someone, somewhere will care.


I like the stated rules; I'm only surprised to see they're apparently not being enforced in this thread.

Isn't that neo-Nazi Gerald L.K. Smith in your avatar?


No try again. Your personal interpretation of the rules has no bearing here what-so-ever. I suggest that if you choose to stay here you learn that.

[Percival]

If you don't like the way the forum is run you are welcome to leave.

Or you could stay and continue to whine and cry in the hope that someone, somewhere will care.
I happen to care what Goldridge has to say, frankly they are right, I really dont like the idea of closing or erasing threads but GR has a point, the thread is quite offensive to Jewish people and some of us on the forum just happen to be Jewish, you dont see us starting threads that are offensive to you or your kind do you?

[Book]

Stuff like this lead to the Holocaust, and is hardly "intelligent." I see other threads locked, so I nominate this one, too.


http://gazaholocaust.com/

The Holocaust should be discussed out in the open.

:)

[Percival]

If you don't like the way the forum is run you are welcome to leave.

Or you could stay and continue to whine and cry in the hopes someone, somewhere will care.


I like the stated rules; I'm only surprised to see they're apparently not being enforced in this thread.

Isn't that neo-Nazi Gerald L.K. Smith in your avatar?


No try again. Your personal interpretation of the rules has no bearing here what-so-ever. I suggest that if you choose to stay here you learn that.


What is to interpret about "Be respectful to all members on the forum." That would include members who may be Jewish and I am sure there are several of us here.


LOL

[Goldridge]

If you don't like the way the forum is run you are welcome to leave.

Or you could stay and continue to whine and cry in the hopes someone, somewhere will care.


I like the stated rules; I'm only surprised to see they're apparently not being enforced in this thread.

Isn't that neo-Nazi Gerald L.K. Smith in your avatar?


No try again. Your personal interpretation of the rules has no bearing here what-so-ever. I suggest that if you choose to stay here you learn that.


My "personal interpretation"? I read the rules, they are in plain English. Are you a moderator?

Are you saying Jews that don't appreciate murder-inducing slander are not welcome here?

[sirgonzo420]

You are not attempting to "understand Judaism," because what you claim is not part of Judaism. It's part of Nazism, maybe, but not Judaism.

Is it fair to claim you're "trying to understand Catholicism" by studying pedophiles? That would be an outrageous and unfair slander. Or is it just Jewish things that get slammed unfairly here?

Again, I call for this thread to be locked, even erased, based on Rule #1. This is an attack on every Jew at this forum.


Kol Nidre is not part of judaism?

It's part of nazism?

???

[Goldridge]

Stuff like this lead to the Holocaust, and is hardly "intelligent." I see other threads locked, so I nominate this one, too.


http://gazaholocaust.com/

The Holocaust should be discussed out in the open.

:)






I already told you I am anti-Zionist. The atrocities done in the name of the Jewish people make me sick. But you are attempting a diversion.

[Percival]

You are not attempting to "understand Judaism," because what you claim is not part of Judaism. It's part of Nazism, maybe, but not Judaism.

Is it fair to claim you're "trying to understand Catholicism" by studying pedophiles? That would be an outrageous and unfair slander. Or is it just Jewish things that get slammed unfairly here?

Again, I call for this thread to be locked, even erased, based on Rule #1. This is an attack on every Jew at this forum.


Kol Nidre is not part of judaism?

It's part of nazism?

???


No, but the INTERPRETATION of the Kol Nidre, specifically that it is used by Jews to fuck others over, in this thread has its orgins in Nazism.

[sirgonzo420]

YOU want to understand Judaism, but dude youre not blind you need to at least admit that you see many others who have no intention of trying to have an honest discussion and only want to keep going on and on that Jews are bad, evil people. Iam not going to start pissing match and name names but they are here and they were on GIM its the same group.


Sure, but I hope that wouldn't prevent us from continuing our discussion, if you still want to.

[Goldridge]

You are not attempting to "understand Judaism," because what you claim is not part of Judaism. It's part of Nazism, maybe, but not Judaism.

Is it fair to claim you're "trying to understand Catholicism" by studying pedophiles? That would be an outrageous and unfair slander. Or is it just Jewish things that get slammed unfairly here?

Again, I call for this thread to be locked, even erased, based on Rule #1. This is an attack on every Jew at this forum.


Kol Nidre is not part of judaism?

It's part of nazism?

???




The claim that Kol Nidre is a "license to lie" is indeed part of Nazism. Read some of the filth put out by Julius Streicher if you honestly don't believe it.

[NOOB]

As a man of Jewish heritage, and a newcomer here, I must say I find this thread offensive. I read the rules, and found them refreshing. I refer mainly to #1 - "Be respectful to everyone on the board....Keep conversation on an intelligent level." I'm not sure how posting anti-Jewish garbage is respectful to everyone on the board. I doubt I'm the only Jew here. And an anti-Zionist one at that! Stuff like this lead to the Holocaust, and is hardly "intelligent." I see other threads locked, so I nominate this one, too.



Percival??? You haven't started with the puppets already have you?


I'll take that as a personal attack, as it is an attack on my integrity. I am myself, and no other. I am not Percival.


That wasn't how I served it but take it anyway you want to. If your not Percy than I bet you still know what I am talking about.
Or did you just happen to wander in this forum and this thread with your statements about shutting down threads, and then it will be crying to the mods about bannings and so it goes. Seen it before. Funny the first time I saw it. Not so entertaining the second.

[Brent]

If you don't like the way the forum is run you are welcome to leave.

Or you could stay and continue to whine and cry in the hope that someone, somewhere will care.
I happen to care what Goldridge has to say, frankly they are right, I really dont like the idea of closing or erasing threads but GR has a point, the thread is quite offensive to Jewish people and some of us on the forum just happen to be Jewish, you dont see us starting threads that are offensive to you or your kind do you?


If this thread is offensive to you I really don't know what to say except that I feel bad for you. Life must be pretty tough with such thin skin.

Also you might want to just stop surfing sites that try to strive for "liberty" as one of the basics of liberty is the idea that we each have the right to speak our minds.

If, as you say, "Jew-bashers" are mentally ill then surely they will never comprise more than a tiny fraction of the population and pose no threat. Also all of their crazy conspiracy theories should be quite easily debunked. Along those lines it would make sense to let these crazies get their "crazy" ideas out there so that everyone can see just how "crazy" they are.

[Book]

Again, I call for this thread to be locked, even erased, based on Rule #1. This is an attack on every Jew at this forum.


http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&tab=iw#hl=en&source=hp&q=jewish+forums&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=bcdf8cbbf06dc4f

Whew...really glad you showed up Goldridge. Can you please help me with these racist people? I just tried to register as a member and they called me "goyim" and told me I was not welcome. Some even spit upon me. Said I was not Chosen by G-d like they are.

Let's you and me click on this link and go down one-by-one getting me welcomed as a member. You being such a nice non-racist Jew like you say this should be easy...huh?

:)

[Goldridge]

That wasn't how I served it but take it anyway you want to. If your not Percy than I bet you still know what I am talking about.


And another attack on my integrity. Who's a moderator, can I have carte blanche to attack people back?

No, I don't know what you're talking about.




Or did you just happen to wander in this forum and this thread with your statements about shutting down threads, and then it will be crying to the mods about bannings and so it goes. Seen it before. Funny the first time I saw it. Not so entertaining the second.


What's your point? I come onto this forum, hoping to find stuff about precious metals. I did. And then I find this here thread about an obscene lie. Clearly a disrespectful attack on everyone of the Jewish faith. You want me to just not pay attention to it? It stood out to me like a burning swastika. I'm sorry if you think lies that leads to murder aren't a big deal for you.

[Brent]

If you don't like the way the forum is run you are welcome to leave.

Or you could stay and continue to whine and cry in the hopes someone, somewhere will care.


I like the stated rules; I'm only surprised to see they're apparently not being enforced in this thread.

Isn't that neo-Nazi Gerald L.K. Smith in your avatar?


No try again. Your personal interpretation of the rules has no bearing here what-so-ever. I suggest that if you choose to stay here you learn that.


My "personal interpretation"? I read the rules, they are in plain English. Are you a moderator?

Are you saying Jews that don't appreciate murder-inducing slander are not welcome here?


What I mean is that you have no rights to ban anyone here. Report their post, and PM a mod if you want but why make some big stink about it unless you are just seeking attention.

The only thing that matters is the mods and owners personal interpretation of the rules and if this is against it then they will take the actions they deem necessary. If they don't then maybe this just isn't the right forum for you.

[Goldridge]

Again, I call for this thread to be locked, even erased, based on Rule #1. This is an attack on every Jew at this forum.


http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&tab=iw#hl=en&source=hp&q=jewish+forums&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=bcdf8cbbf06dc4f

Whew...really glad you showed up Goldridge. Can you please help me with these racist people? I just tried to register as a member and they called me "goyim" and told me I was not welcome. Some even spit upon me. Said I was not Chosen by G-d like they are.

Let's you and me click on this link and go down one-by-one getting me welcomed as a member. You being such a nice non-racist Jew like you say this should be easy...huh?

:)




I'm not taking the bait, sir.

[Book]

I already told you I am anti-Zionist. The atrocities done in the name of the Jewish people make me sick. But you are attempting a diversion.


http://gazaholocaust.com/

You brought up the Holocaust in this thread. Were you "diverting" us from the thread topic?

:)

[sirgonzo420]

That wasn't how I served it but take it anyway you want to. If your not Percy than I bet you still know what I am talking about.


And another attack on my integrity. Who's a moderator, can I have carte blanche to attack people back?

No, I don't know what you're talking about.




Or did you just happen to wander in this forum and this thread with your statements about shutting down threads, and then it will be crying to the mods about bannings and so it goes. Seen it before. Funny the first time I saw it. Not so entertaining the second.


What's your point? I come onto this forum, hoping to find stuff about precious metals. I did. And then I find this here thread about an obscene lie. Clearly a disrespectful attack on everyone of the Jewish faith. You want me to just not pay attention to it? It stood out to me like a burning swastika. I'm sorry if you think lies that leads to murder aren't a big deal for you.


You're the only one talking about murder....

I'm not.

I simply want to further my understanding of judaism.

[Goldridge]

What I mean is that you have no rights to ban anyone here. Report their post, and PM a mod if you want but why make some big stink about it unless you are just seeking attention.


I never said I wanted to ban someone. Stop putting words in my mouth, please.




The only thing that matters is the mods and owners personal interpretation of the rules and if this is against it then they will take the actions they deem necessary. If they don't then maybe this just isn't the right forum for you.


OK. I guess I look forward to a moderator showing up here to explain if the plain English rules are really in plain English, or some other language.

[Goldridge]

You're the only one talking about murder....

I'm not.

I simply want to further my understanding of judaism.


The "interpretation" of Kol Nidre you seem to be advancing has led to countless pogroms, and several million people dead in World War II.

[sirgonzo420]

What I mean is that you have no rights to ban anyone here. Report their post, and PM a mod if you want but why make some big stink about it unless you are just seeking attention.


I never said I wanted to ban someone. Stop putting words in my mouth, please.




The only thing that matters is the mods and owners personal interpretation of the rules and if this is against it then they will take the actions they deem necessary. If they don't then maybe this just isn't the right forum for you.


OK. I guess I look forward to a moderator showing up here to explain if the plain English rules are really in plain English, or some other language.


Me asking a question about judaism is not a personal attack.

[Brent]

What I mean is that you have no rights to ban anyone here. Report their post, and PM a mod if you want but why make some big stink about it unless you are just seeking attention.


I never said I wanted to ban someone. Stop putting words in my mouth, please.




The only thing that matters is the mods and owners personal interpretation of the rules and if this is against it then they will take the actions they deem necessary. If they don't then maybe this just isn't the right forum for you.


OK. I guess I look forward to a moderator showing up here to explain if the plain English rules are really in plain English, or some other language.


Sorry I didn't word that correctly I should have said you have no rights to moderate here.

The people who do are called moderators and if this thread has lasted 12 hours I doubt it is against their rules.

[Book]

What's your point? I come onto this forum, hoping to find stuff about precious metals.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaphone_desktop_tool

Have you visited that Jewish-friendly gold website www.goldismoney.info ??? The name Goldridge sounds familiar...

:)

[sirgonzo420]

You're the only one talking about murder....

I'm not.

I simply want to further my understanding of judaism.


The "interpretation" of Kol Nidre you seem to be advancing has led to countless pogroms, and several million people dead in World War II.


I just read the prayer in english - it looks like it includes all vows.

Perhaps the rabbi translating it should have been more clear as to which oath the prayer pertains.

[Book]

I'm not taking the bait, sir.


http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&tab=iw#hl=en&source=hp&q=jewish+forums&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=1&cad=b

You refuse to help me join these racist hater forums? Is it because I am goyim you refuse to help me join these racist hate forums?

I thought you wanted to fight racist hate Goldridge.

:)

[sirgonzo420]

BTW, Goldridge, perhaps you could elaborate on what Percival was talking about about judaism not having the concept of "sin"?

And if you don't object, could you clarify which god you venerate?

It has been brought to my attention that some jews may revere a different "creator" or "god" than YHVH.

I find that to be extremely curious - and I'd like to hear more about it.

[Book]

The "interpretation" of Kol Nidre you seem to be advancing has led to countless pogroms, and several million people dead in World War II.


http://www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com/

How many?

:o

[Goldridge]

OK folks... keep it cool. Nobody's gone over the line yet, but some of you are very, VERY close to it.


Who specifically? Me?





Again, I call for this thread to be locked, even erased, based on Rule #1. This is an attack on every Jew at this forum.

Nope. Here's why:

Rule #1 - Be respectful to everyone on the board. No flaming, bashing or attacking each other. Keep conversation on an intelligent level. If you get very angry, please sign off for a little while and think about it.

This says NOTHING about groups of people, it says "No flaming, bashing, or attacking each other". It applies to individuals talking to other individuals. If this rule were to be broadened to groups, you all wouldn't be able to talk negatively about ANY group... as there are undoubtably members of just about EVERY group here on G-S.


Is it not a fact there are Jewish people at this forum? Are we not "individuals"?

Why should anyone have to talk negatively about any group?

Will you punish me if I start a thread "Why do Catholic priests molest boys"? I don't have any desire to do that, I just want to understand the variance between plain English and the local language interpretation here.

[LuckyStrike]

Its misunderstood by a certain select few mentally ill individuals who, because of their chemical imbalance can only see black and white.


Calling all mods, ban this troll ASAP.

[Goldridge]

BTW, Goldridge, perhaps you could elaborate on what Percival was talking about about judaism not having the concept of "sin"?

And if you don't object, could you clarify which god you venerate?

It has been brought to my attention that some jews may revere a different "creator" or "god" than YHVH.

I find that to be extremely curious - and I'd like to hear more about it.


Please ask Percival about his concept of the lack of sin in Judaism. I don't speak for him.

I revere the only God there is, YHWH.

I can't speak for esoteric Jews who don't follow YHWH.

[Goldridge]

The "interpretation" of Kol Nidre you seem to be advancing has led to countless pogroms, and several million people dead in World War II.


http://www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com/

How many?

:o


We will never know.

I don't hold to the sanctity of the popular six million figure. That's more "Shoah" business than anything else. An "industry" like Dr. Finkelstein wrote. Are you deny that Jewish people died under Hitler?

[sirgonzo420]

BTW, Goldridge, perhaps you could elaborate on what Percival was talking about about judaism not having the concept of "sin"?

And if you don't object, could you clarify which god you venerate?

It has been brought to my attention that some jews may revere a different "creator" or "god" than YHVH.

I find that to be extremely curious - and I'd like to hear more about it.


Please ask Percival about his concept of the lack of sin in Judaism. I don't speak for him.

I revere the only God there is, YHWH.

I can't speak for esoteric Jews who don't follow YHWH.


I would ask Percival... but it seems like he pretty much stopped posting after you started.

Perhaps he'll resume again after you stop.


;)

[Percival]

Yes its more of an esoteric concept that I was speaking of that is practiced by those Jews who are more in to occult sciences like the kabbalah etc, not ALL Jewish people are in to that and Goldridge doesnt seem to be so we will obviously have different viewpoints on that but we are both Jewish and it is indeed offensive when you read some of the things said on those forum.

[Percival]

BTW, Goldridge, perhaps you could elaborate on what Percival was talking about about judaism not having the concept of "sin"?

And if you don't object, could you clarify which god you venerate?

It has been brought to my attention that some jews may revere a different "creator" or "god" than YHVH.

I find that to be extremely curious - and I'd like to hear more about it.


Please ask Percival about his concept of the lack of sin in Judaism. I don't speak for him.

I revere the only God there is, YHWH.

I can't speak for esoteric Jews who don't follow YHWH.


I would ask Percival... but it seems like he pretty much stopped posting after you started.

Perhaps he'll resume again after you stop.


;)


Dude seriously I am not goldridge. I have no idea who he is. When I get the time and figure out a way to explain what I spoke about in a way that makes sense I will address it. I havent forgotten.

[sirgonzo420]

Yes its more of an esoteric concept that I was speaking of that is practiced by those Jews who are more in to occult sciences like the kabbalah etc, not ALL Jewish people are in to that and Goldridge doesnt seem to be so we will obviously have different viewpoints on that but we are both Jewish and it is indeed offensive when you read some of the things said on those forum.


I'm sorry if either of you feel offended - It is not my intention to offend, but I have no control over other posters.

Anyway, it fascinates me that you both can be jews, but both worship (or recognize, or whatever it is you do) different gods!

How does that work? I'm just trying to wrap my head around this.

[Goldridge]

BTW, Goldridge, perhaps you could elaborate on what Percival was talking about about judaism not having the concept of "sin"?

And if you don't object, could you clarify which god you venerate?

It has been brought to my attention that some jews may revere a different "creator" or "god" than YHVH.

I find that to be extremely curious - and I'd like to hear more about it.


Please ask Percival about his concept of the lack of sin in Judaism. I don't speak for him.

I revere the only God there is, YHWH.

I can't speak for esoteric Jews who don't follow YHWH.


I would ask Percival... but it seems like he pretty much stopped posting after you started.

Perhaps he'll resume again after you stop.


;)


I commit myself, here, to this legal contract: if sirgonzo420 can prove that Percival and myself are the same person, I shall provide sirgonzo420 one 2010 Gold American Eagle $50 piece.

[Horn]

Sounds vaguely Scottish if you ask me.


Should Old Acquaintance be forgot,
and never thought upon;
The flames of Love extinguished,
and fully past and gone:
Is thy sweet Heart now grown so cold,
that loving Breast of thine;
That thou canst never once reflect
on Old long syne.

[Percival]

Yes its more of an esoteric concept that I was speaking of that is practiced by those Jews who are more in to occult sciences like the kabbalah etc, not ALL Jewish people are in to that and Goldridge doesnt seem to be so we will obviously have different viewpoints on that but we are both Jewish and it is indeed offensive when you read some of the things said on those forum.


I'm sorry if either of you feel offended - It is not my intention to offend, but I have no control over other posters.

Anyway, it fascinates me that you both can be jews, but both worship (or recognize, or whatever it is you do) different gods!

How does that work? I'm just trying to wrap my head around this.

YOU havent offended me one bit, youre a curious student, as I said before. There are others who do indeed offend me and are seeminly incapable or at least unwilling to listen when I try and tell them what the KN really means and that it is not a "license to lie" as GR put it, indeed such claims started with the Nazis and it is one of the major lies they used to turn the German people against he Jews and justify their slaughter of millions of them.

[Percival]

BTW, Goldridge, perhaps you could elaborate on what Percival was talking about about judaism not having the concept of "sin"?

And if you don't object, could you clarify which god you venerate?

It has been brought to my attention that some jews may revere a different "creator" or "god" than YHVH.

I find that to be extremely curious - and I'd like to hear more about it.


Please ask Percival about his concept of the lack of sin in Judaism. I don't speak for him.

I revere the only God there is, YHWH.

I can't speak for esoteric Jews who don't follow YHWH.


I would ask Percival... but it seems like he pretty much stopped posting after you started.

Perhaps he'll resume again after you stop.


;)


I commit myself, here, to this legal contract: if sirgonzo420 can prove that Percival and myself are the same person, I shall provide sirgonzo420 one 2010 Gold American Eagle $50 piece.
I will throw in a gold canadian maple also.

[sirgonzo420]

Dude seriously I am not goldridge. I have no idea who he is. When I get the time and figure out a way to explain what I spoke about in a way that makes sense I will address it. I havent forgotten.


I didn't accuse you of being him; I just made the observation that you didn't post at the same time. Even if you are him, it matters not to me. Anyway, I'll take your word for it that you aren't.

I look forward to your response. As I've mentioned before, it interests me.

And I'm not a christian, so I won't be scared off by lucifer/satan/saturn/whatever worship.

I just wanna know what's up...

[Horn]

You have to understand that there are lines of distinction that are blurred when it comes to our Jewish brethren.

As are clearly represented in the recent expansion of their theocratic empire.

[Book]

You have to understand that there are lines of distinction that are blurred when it comes to our Jewish brethren.

As are clearly represented in the recent expansion of their theocratic empire.


Israel still refuses to define their border at the UN...lol.

[Horn]

You have to understand that there are lines of distinction that are blurred when it comes to our Jewish brethren.

As are clearly represented in the recent expansion of their theocratic empire.


Israel still refuses to define their border at the UN...lol.


Hell, who could blame them, if I was stuck in the middle of the desert surrounded by Indians I wouldn't want to be hemmed in either.

Maybe it's that they don't all want to be defined as existing in a certain area?

To easy to find that way. ;D

[Goldridge]

Who specifically? Me?

I did not invite a guessing game. If you think it applies to you, it probably does.


My interpretation does not matter. Yours does. Which is why I asked. I don't think I have violated any of the rules, but I wanted to ask if you did.




It's called freedom of speech/freedom of the press. Perhaps you've heard of it?


If someone said this exact same patronizing statement to you, you would define it as a "personal attack," yes?




Yes, a group is made up OF individuals, but the forum rules state "each other" - not "groups". JQP (the site owner) owns THIS press, and he decides what can and cannot be talked about. Freedom of speech is for anyone who can speak, but freedom of the press is limited to those who OWN one.


Could you please explain what the term "Liberty" means in the banner above?






Will you punish me if I start a thread "Why do Catholic priests molest boys"? I don't have any desire to do that, I just want to understand the variance between plain English and the local language interpretation here.


You can start a thread about any damn thing you want - and post whatever you want in it - just as long as it doesn't violate the forum rules. Enjoy!


That didn't answer the question. Is that topic a violation of the rules, either the plain English meaning, or an alternative meaning as you may perceive it?

[Goldridge]

Israel still refuses to define their border at the UN...lol.


You support the UN, called by many anti-Semites the "Jewnited Nations"?

[sirgonzo420]

Israel still refuses to define their border at the UN...lol.


You support the UN, called by many anti-Semites the "Jewnited Nations"?




Speaking of jews and anti-semites, aren't many jews anti-semites because of their hatred for arabs?

Arabs are semites too, right?

I just suppose that "anti-semite" is generally a misnomer; many 'jews' aren't even of semitic origin, but the arabs that they often despise *are* of semitic origin.

[Horn]

Israel still refuses to define their border at the UN...lol.


You support the UN, called by many anti-Semites the "Jewnited Nations"?


I rest my case on the blurred lines comment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ6ZxmRSKeI

[Gaillo]

OK folks... keep it cool. Nobody's gone over the line yet, but some of you are very, VERY close to it.
Who specifically? Me?

I did not invite a guessing game. If you think it applies to you, it probably does.


My interpretation does not matter. Yours does. Which is why I asked. I don't think I have violated any of the rules, but I wanted to ask if you did.

I don't recall saying that ANYONE had broken the rules - or are you reading a different post than I am?





It's called freedom of speech/freedom of the press. Perhaps you've heard of it?


If someone said this exact same patronizing statement to you, you would define it as a "personal attack," yes?

Hmm... let me check... nope. Nothing in the forum rules about being "patronizing".






Yes, a group is made up OF individuals, but the forum rules state "each other" - not "groups". JQP (the site owner) owns THIS press, and he decides what can and cannot be talked about. Freedom of speech is for anyone who can speak, but freedom of the press is limited to those who OWN one.


Could you please explain what the term "Liberty" means in the banner above?

Sure. JQP worked hard, and he has the LIBERTY to spend his money on anything he wants. He has chosen to exercise this LIBERTY to provide you a place to argue with people like me. You have the LIBERTY to do so, provided you follow the rules that he has taken the LIBERTY of deciding, in order to safeguard and enjoy his purchase. Is that clear enough?








Will you punish me if I start a thread "Why do Catholic priests molest boys"? I don't have any desire to do that, I just want to understand the variance between plain English and the local language interpretation here.


You can start a thread about any damn thing you want - and post whatever you want in it - just as long as it doesn't violate the forum rules. Enjoy!


That didn't answer the question. Is that topic a violation of the rules, either the plain English meaning, or an alternative meaning as you may perceive it?


I think it answered your question PERFECTLY. You would violate no rules by posting such a topic, and so long as the topic content did not violate any of the forum rules, you're golden.

I don't intend to keep debating this with you - I've made myself as CRYSTAL CLEAR as possible at this point, and I have a lot of other threads to check out this evening.

[Book]

If someone said this exact same patronizing statement to you, you would define it as a "personal attack," yes?


http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&tab=iw#hl=en&q=jewish+forum&aq=&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=a2c66d4f91169d04

So this mean you will help me join a Jewish Gold forum and make them stop calling me "goyim" and them saying that they are Chosen by G-d but not me? Shall we start in the morning? I'll PM you at 8am buddy.

:)

[Percival]

Dude you have asked him like 5 times in 3 different threads, give it a rest.

[Horn]

Dude you have asked him like 5 times in 3 different threads, give it a rest.


Why?

[Goldridge]

Israel still refuses to define their border at the UN...lol.


You support the UN, called by many anti-Semites the "Jewnited Nations"?




Speaking of jews and anti-semites, aren't many jews anti-semites because of their hatred for arabs?

Arabs are semites too, right?

I just suppose that "anti-semite" is generally a misnomer; many 'jews' aren't even of semitic origin, but the arabs that they often despise *are* of semitic origin.



Yes, of course. Read the book by the Jewish man of Israeli birth, Shlomo Sand, "The Invention of the Jewish People." Again, the assumption is that Jews are some sort of Star Trek Borg collective. "We're all alike," we all think alike, we all act alike. That's as unfair as presuming all White people are like David Duke.

[uranian]

before this thread about the kol nidre, i had no idea it existed. the thread has remained at the level of intelligent discussion for the most part, aside from a few jibes about mental health and sheenies, and has raised some interesting points about, for example, the difference in how judaism and christianity view sin. how is it disrespectful to discuss an idea, and how different groups of people interpret that idea? if anything it seems that the non-jews are genuinely interested in understanding the idea behind the kol nidre, rather than attempting to perpetuate a murderous myth, while the jews are suggesting that discussing the kol nidre is to show disrespect/slander to jewish members. i understand that the kol nidre has been used as part of nazi mythology, but to suggest that an open discussion of what is in english a clear statement that it's ok to lie as long as you remember having taken the KN vow is offensive, is an over-reaction. such a statement from any religious or philosophical system is bound to cause outsiders to that system to ask some pretty searching questions of it; the only defence i've seen of it so far is that you can't understand unless you're jewish, as it is steeped in the hebrew language and judaic traditions. having had a brief look at the talmudic references that are used by the jewish encylopedia to prove that the intended audience for the prayer is god, rather than everyone, i have only seen a text that essentially states that it is ok to lie if one remembers the KN vow at the time of the lie. i am genuinely interested to see any other part of the talmud that clearly shows how the intended audience is god.

[Goldridge]

EVERYONE: Gaillo has deleted my polite, respectful, sincere response to his condescending post above. Gaillo, if you dispute my characterization of my post, please restore it for all to see.

He has also threatened to ban me for "fu*king with him" in a PM.

[Gaillo]

EVERYONE: Gaillo has deleted my polite, respectful, sincere response to his condescending post above. Gaillo, if you dispute my characterization of my post, please restore it for all to see.

He has also threatened to ban me for "fu*king with him" in a PM.



Yep folks, it's all true. I told him it was NOT up for debate, warned him, and he persisted and kept trying for more debate. I deleted his post (the first post I've EVER deleted on this forum, BTW!), then I sent a PM stating that further discussion was OFF THE TABLE. I stated that he knew the rules and had no right to be trying to re-write them. He then broke the rule on PM privacy in the above post. He's got a 7 day timeout, ( the least possible time for posting a PM on the forum . The chances of it going to a perma ban are high. Trust me we are serious about posting PM's on the open forum Also my advice is to let it rest. More discussion will only lead to more possible bans. WT)After that, JQP (the site owner) will decide what to do.

[Libertarian_Guard]

I might mention my concept of the Bible is that it is largely mythology; Jewish legend; distorted history. [See: John Van Seter, Abraham in Legend and History, Yale, 1975. Frank M. Cross, Caananite Myth and Hebrew Epic, Harvard, 1973.] There are a lot of poems and other sorts of things like this. There are a number of moral teachings in it, but they are the minimum part of it. Large parts of it are just ritualistic and have no meaning in the modern world at all, but if you want to understand Jewish legend, that's the book to go to.

When I talked to these people I saw that they took it literally. Furthermore, in one of my conversations with Mr. Ben Gurion he made the remark that, "the Bible is our charter." I began to realize that Zionism is a thinly veiled theocracy. The Bible was in their minds when they were talking, but they used modern nationalistic language in order to hide the fact that this was theocratic in nature. They realized that a theocratic society would not appeal to America.

I might mention here that I have found Zionism very deceitful. There is a double meaning in all the words Zionists use, and [Chaim] Weizmann himself said one time, "Let the British or anyone else talk about Zionism and they can use our terminology, but we know what the meaning of it is. It has one meaning to us, one meaning to the Gentiles." They've always had this double-entendre in everything that they have done. Whenever they use words you have to try to find out what is the context in which they are using these words.

This threw me back to studying the Bible again to see what they are talking about; what is "Eretz Israel," which includes this tremendous territory? Furthermore, in the covenants which God gave to the Jewish people, he said, "You are to be a pure and holy people and not to be contaminated by contact with Gentiles. Therefore, you should cast out all the inhabitants that are there and make it a Jewish state." [See Deuteronomy 7:1=6. Joshua 6:17; 8:21; 10:33. I Samuel 15:18, etc.] I found the same thing in Herzl: You must remove the Arabs and Palestinians in order to have an exclusivistic Jewish people.


I found Herzl's writings were really all ideas taken from the Old Testament, but dressed up in modern language, and that Zionism meant the incorporation of the whole Jewish community in Palestine. A large territory that was to be exclusively theirs, and the Arabs would be expelled.


http://www.trumanlibrary.org/oralhist/wright.htm

[Neuro]

EVERYONE: Gaillo has deleted my polite, respectful, sincere response to his condescending post above. Gaillo, if you dispute my characterization of my post, please restore it for all to see.

He has also threatened to ban me for "fu*king with him" in a PM.



Yep folks, it's all true. I told him it was NOT up for debate, warned him, and he persisted and kept trying for more debate. I deleted his post (the first post I've EVER deleted on this forum, BTW!), then I sent a PM stating that further discussion was OFF THE TABLE. I stated that he knew the rules and had no right to be trying to re-write them. He then broke the rule on PM privacy in the above post. He's got a 1 day timeout, After that, JQP (the site owner) will decide what to do.


Good decision. Personally I think that a 1 day ban is enough to consider his position here... If he/she can't play by the rules after that permaban him...

[BillBoard]

IDK but to me it sounds strange and wily to have such a disclaimer of vows...and specially to clear the slate between you and God? God, whom I believe can read what is in your heart and mind. Color me anti-Kol Nidre and accept me as a fallible man.

[WebTech]

Thread locked, until a full management discussion is held.

That is as fair as it gets without locking it forever.

Start another flame thread about how this situation is handled and I will join in as JQP isn't available just now.

The center will hold, and you are going to have accept that.

[Brent]

Aww Goldridge got himself banned. I guess he didn't read the rules as closely as he claimed. Such a shame as it gets old only having one Jewish shill here.

[sirgonzo420]

I see this thread has been reopened... Let's try to keep the discourse a little more intelligent.

Anyway, Percival - I'm still curious to hear whatever you have to say about the "god discrepancy" (or whatever it ought to be called) in orthodox judaism.

And to all my gentile brethren: let's chill out with the personal attacks.

[saint]

Never heard of him.

Yeah - I'm post whorin, so what.
O couple more and I get to feces. ;D

[saint]

Ding - yeaaay.

Night all.

[Percival]

I see this thread has been reopened... Let's try to keep the discourse a little more intelligent.

Anyway, Percival - I'm still curious to hear whatever you have to say about the "god discrepancy" (or whatever it ought to be called) in orthodox judaism.

And to all my gentile brethren: let's chill out with the personal attacks.


I will have more time tomorrow and will try and resume that discussion, its just very hard to talk about because its esoteric by nature and as such you need to go through an initiation process, step by step, to learn a little at a time before you reach the meat and taters. Its like learning the paino, you dont jump to the top right away you first have to learn the fundamentals. Esoteric mystical Kabbalistic Judaism is very difficult like that and takes a lot of time to understand, if I were just to blurt out certain things and concepts as far as what they believe it would definitely be misunderstood and we would be back a square one trying to defend the attacks that Jews are Lucifer worshipers. But I am working on it, I havent forgotten.

[Horn]

step by step, to learn a little at a time before you reach the meat and taters.

Please pass the milk, too.

[gunDriller]

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Business/images-2/bernard-madoff-portrait.jpg

Bernie says your check is in the mail buddy. Just like he promised!

for insight into Madoff's scam within a scam
http://iamthewitness.com/audio/Muhammad.Rafeeq/TFC.SMITH.RAFEEQ.27-03-2010.mp3

... i think it's the March 27 webcast.

as far as Kol Nidre, just one more custom practiced by the white supremacists we call "Jews".

but, as i noted in the thread that got locked, i do like the idea of tearing up contracts with criminal Jews*.

in America, this would mean severing all your contracts with the corporate-ocracy. and severing all your contracts with the Federal Government.


* acknowledging that not all Jews are criminals.