Follow the debt.....

[iOWNme]

Follow the Debt

(Lets take a quick stroll down American history's lane. We will follow the documents that supposedly 'set man free')


Articles of Confederation – 1777

XII - Reaffirms that the Confederation accepts war debt incurred by Congress before the
Articles.



US CON – 1787

VI - All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.



14th Amendment – 1868

Sec IV - The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What is the definition of slavery? A debt unquestionable? Who do ‘we the people’ owe this debt to? Upon careful reading you will see that it is ‘Congress and the United States’ who owe this money back, not ‘we the people’. You will also notice it goes from being called a 'War Debt', to 'All Debts' to the 'Public Debt'. But how would CONgress ever be able to pay this debt back? THEY WOULDNT! They would need to find a way to get 'we the people' to agree/consent to being the 'public' and paying back a debt that was accrued by CONgress. Has NOTHING changed in 230+ years!

So who does Congress and the United States owe this debt to? A debt accrued prior to the Articles of Confederation? Then the debt is carried over to the US CON and finally into the slave Amendment, #14. For what? Didn’t the articles set us free?

Well, i know one thing, YOU CANT BE FREE IF YOU ARE IN DEBT. But you can enjoy the ILLUSION of freedom while carrying around a usurer's weight on your shoulders.

[jetgraphics]

I'd augment the post with this: follow the money, too.

Congress has no power to create money. It can only coin money (stamp bullion) and borrow money.

So WHO really can create new money?

Scarce and precious metal is a TERRIBLE money token system.
(I know, I know, this is heresy to gold / silver folks)

Money is an abstraction, an accounting system, a medium of exchange, to facilitate the trade and transportation of goods and services.

Obviously, the sum of all money must have proportionality with the set of all goods and services - lest trade falters.

Right there, you can see that there is a problem.

The instant you find equilibrium, and equitable trade, the next day, it's shot to [expletive deleted].

Scarce and precious metal coin is finite, and cannot grow at the rate that maintains proportionality with the trade goods. (Rising population = more labor. Tools multiply labor. Automation multiplies the output of that labor even more. Oh!)

In the Parker Bros, Real Estate Trading Game (Monopoly), there was a simple rule that is profound. When, in the course of the game, that the "game wealth" has grown so large (house, hotels, etc), that the Bank runs out of "money", the rules say: make some more!

In the U.S. Constitution, the government is not allowed to make more money.

So who does have the power to make a medium of exchange, an accounting system, and a way to facilitate trade?

YOU DO.

It's called the private promissory note, aka coupon. A coupon denominated in a free "MickyD" Burger may have the cash value of 1/20th of a cent (fine print), but it can be traded for a burger.

The Key:
Only creators of the goods and services should have the power to create the medium of exchange that purchases that which they make.

In fact, as long as the debtors can make money, usury is acceptable and not an abomination. But "lawful money" is hampered by a legal system that was created to empower usurers by making money scarce and always in demand - an ideal world for usurers.

There's not enough bullion to return to metallic coin. We can't go on with debt-credit. And people are afraid to make their own money, and trade with it.

D'oh!

[iOWNme]

Excellent points!

But, who do you suppose this 'debt' is owed to?

I mean even by 'their' own rules whom is this owed to? France? Others?

And what 'money' was borrowed? Was it gold/silver? Was it worthless paper in the form of credit? Was there interest attached to it?

And surely in the course of the first 100 yrs or so, we would have easily paid back what was owed and started to prosper on our own? Right? I mean imagine if the country would have started on day 1 with: Central fiat banking, forced citizenship, abolish property rights, and a graduated income tax?

It seems to me that we at some point fullfilled our debt obligation, and were able to move on with growing and prospering. Or this was all part of the plan....

Then something sinister happened....

[Bigjon]

Gold, silver and copper are traditional money and should remain the money of our land.

What Jet proposes is something he learned at university, a place that teaches lies. To say that there is not enough bullion is to say that the value placed on it is a fallacy and the value should be far higher. There is always a market for bullion for its utility uses as jewelry and in industrial processes and that market will set the price at which bullion money is valued.

A free people should control the value of its money by letting the market place decide the true value. When the bullion price exceeds the value of the money people should be allowed to take their coins, melt them down, and sell them into the bullion market, thereby reducing the amount of coins and driving up the value of the remaining coins. When the price of coins rise too high people should be allowed to take their bullion to the mint and for a small franking fee turn said bullion into coins and by increasing the money supply drive down the value of those coins. Each metal should be defined in terms of it own value and purity and then equated to each other metal. A Dollar is a weight and purity of silver, an Eagle is a weight and purity of gold and a Penny is a weight and purity of copper the purity of each can from time to time be adjusted to make the value of the denominations even multiples of each other to facilitate making change.

When someone allows people to use fiat for currency you fall right back to the situation we have right now (who watches the watchers?). A system of who gets to control the money supply and he will be king.

Commodity money alleviates this problem, it doesn’t solve all of our problems (no man made system can), but it does put money in its proper role that of servant instead of master. The master should be those who are the producers and money should facilitate them, not rule them.

[jetgraphics]

Gold, silver and copper are traditional money and should remain the money of our land.

What Jet proposes is something he learned at university, a place that teaches lies. To say that there is not enough bullion is to say that the value placed on it is a fallacy and the value should be far higher.

Rebuttal. What I advocate is NOT taught in any university, at least in any that I have seen.
And if you're going to call me a liar, you had better back it up.

Point #1 - pursuant to the Coinage Act of 1792, a unit dollar is a silver coin. A one ounce gold coin is equivalent to 20 unit dollars.

Point #2 - the national debt, in excess of 12 trillion, computes to a legal obligation to pay 600 billion ounces of gold bullion, stamped into coin.

Point #3 - Silver was demonetized in the Coinage Act of 1873 (for the Federal government) and thus cannot be used to pay the debt.

Point #4 - Fort Knox depository allegedly has only 147.4 million ounces of gold.

Point #5 - Estimates for global above ground gold amount to 5.5 billion ounces.

Point #6 - It would take 86,000 years, at current mining rates, for enough bullion to be mined (if it could be found) to pay the debt - if it was frozen right now.

Point #7 - A "dollar bill" is not a dollar. Pursuant to Title 12 USC Sec. 411, a "dollar bill" is a promise to pay a dollar (gold coin) on demand. That promise was repudiated in House Joint Resolution 192. A "dollar bill" has no par value (worthless).

Point #8 - Via FICA, millions of Americans have volunteered to be "contributors" (equally liable) for paying the impossible national debt. Thus those worthless notes become their own obligations - and legal tender. An obligated party must always accept his own note in tender in discharge (not payment) of debt.



There is always a market for bullion for its utility uses as jewelry and in industrial processes and that market will set the price at which bullion money is valued.

A free people should control the value of its money by letting the market place decide the true value. When the bullion price exceeds the value of the money people should be allowed to take their coins, melt them down, and sell them into the bullion market, thereby reducing the amount of coins and driving up the value of the remaining coins. When the price of coins rise too high people should be allowed to take their bullion to the mint and for a small franking fee turn said bullion into coins and by increasing the money supply drive down the value of those coins. Each metal should be defined in terms of it own value and purity and then equated to each other metal. A Dollar is a weight and purity of silver, an Eagle is a weight and purity of gold and a Penny is a weight and purity of copper the purity of each can from time to time be adjusted to make the value of the denominations even multiples of each other to facilitate making change.

When someone allows people to use fiat for currency you fall right back to the situation we have right now (who watches the watchers?). A system of who gets to control the money supply and he will be king.

Commodity money alleviates this problem, it doesn’t solve all of our problems (no man made system can), but it does put money in its proper role that of servant instead of master. The master should be those who are the producers and money should facilitate them, not rule them.


The "dollar bill" price for gold and silver is not a reference to true legal value.
A Federal Reserve Note is not only worthless - it is worth LESS - a minus value - a debt - an obligation.

Fiat money has value because the government says it does.

FRNs have NO VALUE, saith the government. Nada. Zip.

300 million "Human Resources" pledged as collateral on the debt, gives value to those notes.

In short, voluntary servitude to the Creditor is the current monetary system. The government takes its cut, via taxes. The Creditor gets its cut via debt service.

Regarding "hard money" (coin), read the law.
You cannot "adjust" the face value of coin - at least not according to U.S. law - to keep proportionality with the market "value".

If you take the current GDP and stipulate that all the gold in Fort Knox is proportional in value to it (discounting the national debt, as usury, and impossible to ever pay), you'd have to deflate prices on the order of :

$14.2 T (GDP) versus 147.4 Mounces x $20
$14.2 T .... 3 B (gold dollars)
4700 : 1 (*roughly)
1 dollar (gold) buys 4700 frns worth of the GDP.

This is bad news for any debtor - if the debts are not deflated equally. And bad news for the creditor.

The U.S.A. would only have 3 billion "hard dollars" circulating.

And it will be even worse news, if the next year has any growth in the GDP, because the gold supply is not growing in proportion - which means the price would have to DROP. There's only 3 billion.

So the more you work - the less you are paid.
The more you produce - the less you can charge.
If you owe money - you're doomed.
(Usury is mathematically impossible to pay in any finite money token system, and doubly so, when you are limited only to 'hard money".)

I do not think the evidence supports "hard money" as the solution to restore equitable trade.

In mathematical terms, you cannot take a subset of a set, and equate it in value to the whole set, without creating a paradox.

[Bigjon]

Rebuttal. What I advocate is NOT taught in any university, at least in any that I have seen.
And if you're going to call me a liar, you had better back it up.

Point #1 - pursuant to the Coinage Act of 1792, a unit dollar is a silver coin. A one ounce gold coin is equivalent to 20 unit dollars.

Point #2 - the national debt, in excess of 12 trillion, computes to a legal obligation to pay 600 billion ounces of gold bullion, stamped into coin.

You can’t compare apples to oranges or more succinctly you can’t compare toilet paper to precious metals. The national debt in terms of honestly valued gold will be far less than the amount you state.


Point #3 - Silver was demonetized in the Coinage Act of 1873 (for the Federal government) and thus cannot be used to pay the debt.

Everything done by CONgress from 1868 onwards is mute null and void of anything legal, because the government from the time of the civil war is a de facto government acting outside lawful government. It is a sham and ruse, a government at war with the people. The reason to remove silver and copper as coinage is so the bankers can monopolize the monetary system. There is too much silver available for them to corner the market.


Point #4 - Fort Knox depository allegedly has only 147.4 million ounces of gold.

So the gold will have a higher value.


Point #5 - Estimates for global above ground gold amount to 5.5 billion ounces.

Again the free market will dictate the bullion price for gold and the coins will be valued accordingly.


Point #6 - It would take 86,000 years, at current mining rates, for enough bullion to be mined (if it could be found) to pay the debt - if it was frozen right now.

More apples to oranges.


Point #7 - A "dollar bill" is not a dollar. Pursuant to Title 12 USC Sec. 411, a "dollar bill" is a promise to pay a dollar (gold coin) on demand. That promise was repudiated in House Joint Resolution 192. A "dollar bill" has no par value (worthless).

Point #8 - Via FICA, millions of Americans have volunteered to be "contributors" (equally liable) for paying the impossible national debt. Thus those worthless notes become their own obligations - and legal tender. An obligated party must always accept his own note in tender in discharge (not payment) of debt.

The "dollar bill" price for gold and silver is not a reference to true legal value.
A Federal Reserve Note is not only worthless - it is worth LESS - a minus value - a debt - an obligation.

Fiat money has value because the government says it does.

FRNs have NO VALUE, saith the government. Nada. Zip.

300 million "Human Resources" pledged as collateral on the debt, gives value to those notes.

In short, voluntary servitude to the Creditor is the current monetary system. The government takes its cut, via taxes. The Creditor gets its cut via debt service.

Regarding "hard money" (coin), read the law.
You cannot "adjust" the face value of coin - at least not according to U.S. law - to keep proportionality with the market "value".

The congresses main monetary responsibility is to coin money and regulate the value thereof.

http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Coinage-Act-of-1792 is the law. And the value of the coins were adjusted sometime in the 1840’s.

This whole section is more comparing toilet paper to PM’s, a useless excercise

If you take the current GDP and stipulate that all the gold in Fort Knox is proportional in value to it (discounting the national debt, as usury, and In mathematical terms, you cannot take a subset of a set, and equate it in value to the whole set, without creating a paradox.




This f*cking editor a=

[jetgraphics]

It would appear that you have been misled to not read the law.

Since 1792, a dollar has a legal definition. Since 1873, the government will only deal in gold dollars. (The demonetization does not affect the people). The government's debt, denominated in dollars, means gold coin. If that debt was the people's, then, one might construe it to mean both gold and silver coin.

There is no law that says the value of a 12 trillion dollar public debt is NOT denominated in gold coins. (Art. 1, Sec. 8, Sec. 10)

Title 12 USC Sec. 411 does state that a paper 'dollar bill' is an obligation (debt) to pay the bearer on demand, face value in coin (real dollars).

If you can find a law that states otherwise, please produce it.

However, since 1933, Congress will not redeem their IOUs with lawful money.
The notes have no par value.

Since 1935, each enumerated "contributor" (equally liable) is an underwriter for that debt, thus embracing the burden to pay on those worthless notes. That is how each "human resource" can be "harvested" by gradual means, taking a portion of his labor and property, without killing him outright.

I will note that the "de facto" / "de jure" argument is an old and failed Patriot myth.

To the best of my knowledge, there are no laws that impair the sovereign prerogatives of the people, domiciled within the boundaries of the U.S.A. If you can find one, please present it. I may have made an error.

However, those who have consented, by whatever means, are s.o.l. And those who rationalize their dilemma with convoluted legal theories are often unsuccessful in their experiences with the government. (Bob Kahre and Wesley Snipes come to mind)

If you wish to remain a passenger or crewman on the pirate Ship of State, don't rock the boat. Mutiny is severely punished.

If you leave the Ship for dry land, it matters little who the crew is or what it does... you're not "in" it.

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P.S. You probably know of pre-1933 one ounce 20 dollar gold coins. So I assume that the national debt, created BEFORE the bankruptcy, is denominated in that species coin. If Congress changed the value of the debt, the Creditor would not approve.

[Bigjon]

the 12 trillion you talk about is valued in FRN's, NOT gold.

toilet paper to gold does not compare.

[jetgraphics]

the 12 trillion you talk about is valued in FRN's, NOT gold.

toilet paper to gold does not compare.


Really?
Can you show me that law that supports that belief?

I can't find it - - But I am visually impaired, so I may have missed it.

FWIW - back in 1993, while in a Georgia court room, I asked the judge to rule that a Federal Reserve note (dollar bill) was a dollar. He refused.
(I was arguing that their claim that I earned XXXXX dollars was fraud, and that all I earned was $63 dollars biweekly. Which when multiplied by 26, was a measly 1638 dollars per year. I won my case.)

addendum:
In 1993, and 1996, I filed several cases, without paying fees, by claiming that I did not own nor possess X amount of dollars, as dollars are defined by the Coinage Act of 1792, et seq.

Whether you wish to admit it or not, the law is the law.

[The Great Ag]

Quote
Point #4 - Fort Knox depository allegedly has only 147.4 million ounces of gold.

So the gold will have a higher value.
Hey, Bigjon:
I understand where you are coming from. I once believed that too, but it is a fallacious argument.

Here is proof:
Gold has historically held its value in terms of its purchasing power when compared to other commodities. In relation to currencies, the purchasing power of gold can flucuate greatly.

Let us arbitrarily say, for the sake of argument, that an ounce of gold was revalued at $100,000 per ounce. Woo Hoo, :banrasta I am rich you say. I have X number of ounces.

Since the value of the "dollar" was devaluated, ALL other commodities will be revalued by the same factor as gold. Now a 2FRN loaf of bread will now cost 2000FRN.

Do you see, Bigjon? It matters not how many "dollars" equals an ounce of gold, but what commodities will an ounce of gold purchase.

Once you wrap your head around the fact that money is an abstraction, nothing more than symbols and that ANYTHING 2 people consent to as money, is money, only then will you begin to understand the functions of money. It can be anything the parties value and history has shown all sorts of things used as money, beads, tobacco, grain, rope, shells and rocks so big they can only be moved with extreme force (true story).

A sound monetary policy that allows for the expansion of trade will benefit society. FRNs are NOT a sound monetary policy, although the do facilitate trade. JG's opinion of allowing producers to create money is a sound idea. There are many others that will work as well. Matter of fact, IMO, as long the currency is NOT based upon usuary, the monetary policy should work.

The Great Ag

[iOWNme]

Good to see Ag here...!

This thread is great! good points made all around.

But if i could slightly steer it back on topic....

It looks to me like whether you swear allegiance to the original Articles, the US CON, or your 'Civil Rights' you have undoubtedly sworn to pay back a debt that is unquestionable. Combine that with Executive Order 6102 (Gold seizure) and you have just been forced into an Unlawful monetary system, too which you have no other option or choice, and to which you will trade your labor for debt.

(Side note: Men and woman literally died to have a country with the rule of law, and a sound monetary system. And 1 guy writes up a fancy decree, and poof! He can change the entire idea. Gee whiz....)

Also note how Roosevelt declared the Gold seizure order derives its authority from the Act of Oct 6, 1917 (Trading with the Enemy), and the Act of March 9, 1933 (Emergency War Powers).

Executive Order 6102 (http://www.wellsfargonevadagold.com/confiscation-order.pdf)


In 1933 approximately 500 tonnes of gold were turned in to the Treasury "voluntarily" at the exchange rate of $20.67 per troy ounce

So we are back to either CONgress or the Commander in Chief having exercised their own authority, to terminate Lawful money. Sounds De Facto to me. But i guess they all went along with it, so they consented. The literal decimation of the economy and society, $12 bread, and no jobs, may have had something to do with their consent.

[Bigjon]

Abstractions need laws and guns to make them work. Gold works fine without any of those.

All I hear are some bankers trying to defend the laws that they have created to say that their toilet paper has real value.

It is NOT the gold that is fluctuating in value, it is your worthless toilet paper.

[The Great Ag]

Abstractions need laws and guns to make them work. Gold works fine without any of those.

Agreed, Bigjon, except gold is a finite quantity. As long as gold is extracted from the ground at the same rate as the economy, it works very well. Only problem is that ALL economies, sooner or later, grow faster than gold can be extracted. Now money is in short supply. When that happens, people hold on to it, rather than spend it. Economy slows down and goods and services that are needed go unused.

Using a finite commodity as money is certainly better than debt as money, but it is not the most ideal.

Look at the number JG threw out.
US gov't has 147 million ounces of AU. I have read reports as high as 210 million ounces. Currently there are 306 million people in the USA. Using the high figure of 210 means 1.45 ounces of AU per person. Even if we go return to 1913 or earlier, can you support yourself on 1.45 ounces or $30.12 or .08 cents a day. A small loaf of bread was .05 cents.

Imagine a large company, Ford, IBM, Walmart. . .etc.

The Great Ag

[jetgraphics]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bullion_Depository
The United States Bullion Depository holds about 4,603 tons (4,176 metric tonnes) of gold bullion (147.4 million troy ounces). It is second in the United States only to the Federal Reserve Bank of New York's underground vault in Manhattan, which holds about 5,000 metric tonnes of gold in trust for many foreign nations, central banks and official international organizations.

For whom does the Fed Res hold that 5000 tonnes?
US or THEM?

Anyway, if you take 2080 (52 x 40) as the number of hours in a work-year, and you have 147.4 million ounces of gold divided among 306 million people, you are going to need microscopic gold coin for hourly wages.

2.3158 x10^-4 ounce of gold will be the "average" hourly wage.
231 millionths of an ounce.

That's "small" change...
A day's wage would be 1.85/1000th of an ounce.

At $20 per ounce, that computes to : $0.037 per day.

[Bigjon]

Well I think you should repeal your legal tender laws and let gold and silver and copper compete with your paper money. I think we all know how that would turn out. No one would take your paper money.
The value of gold and silver would rise many multiples of what you claim the value is in FRN terms.

You can use a fictional value that was based on a time when gold was money, but you are lying to yourselves and to me.

If you are not lying, I will gladly buy all the gold you have for the price you quote.

If we take all the fiat FRN’s and divide them by the amount of our gold then we will arrive at a more correct price. If we add silver into the mix that would drop the total gold value per ounce.

AG
If the amount of goods and services outpace gold then we have deflation and a rising value for our money. This rewards savers as it should, our currency now is truly a store of value. Your argument is paper is good you can print all you want and then we get inflation which penalizes savers and rewards those people who expanded the money supply.


There is a market mechanism that would soon correct this shortage of money as long as you allowed a tri-metallic monetary standard. As the value of the currency rose people would take advantage of this by turning their bullion into coin. The monetary act allowed people to do this for a nominal charge.

[The Great Ag]

Well I think you should repeal your legal tender laws and let gold and silver and copper compete with your paper money. I think we all know how that would turn out. No one would take your paper money.
The value of gold and silver would rise many multiples of what you claim the value is in FRN terms.

You can use a fictional value that was based on a time when gold was money, but you are lying to yourselves and to me.

If you are not lying, I will gladly buy all the gold you have for the price you quote.

If we take all the fiat FRN’s and divide them by the amount of our gold then we will arrive at a more correct price. If we add silver into the mix that would drop the total gold value per ounce.

AG
If the amount of goods and services outpace gold then we have deflation and a rising value for our money. This rewards savers as it should, our currency now is truly a store of value. Your argument is paper is good you can print all you want and then we get inflation which penalizes savers and rewards those people who expanded the money supply.


There is a market mechanism that would soon correct this shortage of money as long as you allowed a tri-metallic monetary standard. As the value of the currency rose people would take advantage of this by turning their bullion into coin. The monetary act allowed people to do this for a nominal charge.
Hey, Bigjon:
JG is NOT an apologist for the FRN and neither am I. What I am talking about is there is demand for people to purchase items, but because of the scarcity of money, they cannot buy eventhough they have needs.

I live in Sussex County, Delaware and I found a document written in the 1770's from the "divers inhabitants" in Sussex County pleading for the state gov't to issue more money as there is not enough circulating in the county to meet their needs. They could not pay their debts and were wanting to avoid foreclosure. The inhabitants had plenty of food, clothes, and other needful things (these things could be bartered for with other commodities than gov't money). Some debtors would accept other commodities of value in lieu of gov't issued money, but many would not. The people were resourceful but they could NOT create gov't issued money. When a finite amount of money exists NOT in proportion to the needs of society, the economy shuts down.

Sooner or later this is what happens when a finite commodity is used as money.

The Great Ag

[Bigjon]

I don't agree, the time you quote is when King George shut down the paper script that the colony's used and demanded that only his money was to be used.

I have no problem with the people using paper money, as long as there is a free market in money and the paper money works side by side with a commodity based monetary system. Then there is a choice, right now and back then, there is no choice. If the standard is a commodity money system, those using paper can't inflate away value because the paper money will be rejected, if it gets out of line.

The monetary act of 1792, addressed the problem of not enough money by allowing the people themselves control of the monetary system.

Another thing is the fact that one coin can service many needs, just because you used it to buy xxx, doesn’t mean its work is done, it goes from hand to hand serving multiple people.

At the time when gold/silver/copper was money a dollar a day was a great wage and at the end of your work week, 6 days long your paymaster only needed 6 silver coins.