Does anyone here want my job?

[Gaillo]

At one time or another, anybody who spends much time visiting or participating on internet forums probably asks the question:

What would it be like to be a moderator?

I'm going to give you my own experience, in the hopes that it clears up some misconceptions about what forum moderation is.

I never asked to be a moderator, I was just bumbling and stumbling along posting my usual drivel on a new forum that had been created in the wake of a spectacularly unbelievable implosion of a previous forum. A few days into this post-fest, I received a PM from the site administrator saying in essence "call me - here's my number". I replied to the PM, a bit afraid that I had caused some kind of problem with some sort of post(s) I had made, so I replied to the PM asking "is there anything I can answer via PM?" He replied that there wasn't, just call.

When I was asked to start moderating over the phone, my first thought was of being BANNED, THREE TIMES, over on the other forum. I told him that I would accept the position, provided that I would NOT be asked to do permanent bans. It was, and continues to be, my main condition of accepting the job.

So, a few days later (after the digital "paperwork" is processed and everything is altered settings-wise), I log on to find....

drumroll please... about to walk through the parting curtains...

The same old forum. Seriously. Nothing looks different, other than the "global moderator" title under my name, and a few more buttons at the top and bottom of each forum view and post screen.

People think that mods have some kind of god-like power, able to float over the landscape of the forum and instantly see anything out of the ordinary, like hawks in flight or NSA guys with a wall of screens in front of them. The reality is VERY different - we have a few menus that allow us to check things like incoming signup requests, IP stuff, and member lists with some stats... but for the most part, the forum looks EXACTLY the same as it does to you!

That means that all the sudden, I have to go clicking through just about EVERY active thread in existence, looking for personal attacks, illegal activities, porn, etc. I can't just look at the recent post list as it scrolls up, since many people like to use images to convey their attacks. I can't enjoy browsing the forum all leisure-like as I used to, in many cases I don't even notice the thread title that I'm looking through! Any enjoyment of the thread CONTENT is typically gone, scanning through dozens of posts looking for attacks, etc. Sometimes I can still go to a thread that I think I'll enjoy the content of, after the other fires are out and the place looks "calm" for a change, but most of the time it's what I described above - flying through threads at break-neck speed trying to read faster than I'm capable of.

OK though... you might ask... what about the "fun" stuff? How about all those glorious things you can do that us "mere mortals" can't? What about erasing posts? Locking threads? Stickying things?

Well... I'm glad you asked (and you KNOW you did! ;D)

Any of that stuff comes with consequences. You PISS PEOPLE OFF if you erase their posts, lock their threads, or sticky something they might not want to be reading every day they come to the forum. Every time I use one of my sparkly new "magic buttons", I risk an all-out forum WAR over free speech, whether the owner and mods are tyrranical, and possibly alienate dozens of forum members who might have been OK with the place beforehand. The first thing you learn as a moderator, and you learn it REALLY QUICK after taking on the job, is that you just can't please everybody, it's impossible to be PERFECTLY fair and even-handed, and that no matter WHAT you do, you're going to be upsetting someone on the forum.

It's like being in front of a large audience, giving a speech or performing, KNOWING that no matter what you say or what you do, part of the audience is STILL going to boo you and throw rotten tomatoes.

My favorite thing about being a moderator so far is the "Sticky" button. Why? Because it's the one that causes me the LEAST problem in terms of controversy, drama, and argument.

OK... so occasionally, in between trying to govern the place by following the rules the site owner has laid down in an impartial as possible manner, I find myself with a SMALL amount of free time to read and post what I want. What do I do? I find something that I'M interested in, for a change, and start a reply. Then the 2nd guessing begins. Will my post negatively affect the members opinion of the forum because I'm a moderator? Will my post cause some kind of LEGAL problem for the site if I say something against the government or some minority group? Will my post cause some kind of flame war because some members think I'm taking "their side" of an issue and use my post as ammunition for why they are "right"? Typically, I just end up NOT posting instead, or leaving the thread resigned to let it take its course.


In short, this is what it's like being a moderator:

* Don't really get to enjoy the forum any more in the way I used to
* Don't really get to post what YOU want to say in all situations
* LONG hours, ZERO pay
* Always having to think HARD about the impact of what you're doing
* Frequently have to deal with drama and arguments that you just DON'T CARE about
* Have to follow the rules, even when you sometimes AGREE with an attack someone is making
* Frequently trying to make peace between two members who just want to fight
* Have to wonder if one of the other moderators or the site owner might disagree with a decision you've made, reverse it, and maybe have the whole situation flare up again
* Have to read FAR more than you WANT to, at a faster pace than you're USED to, looking for more BS than you ever HOPED for.

Why keep doing it then? I can only think of ONE reason:

I want this place to work, there are a LOT of good people here who have formed a unique community. I don't want this place to degenerate into an anarchistic cesspit of name calling, porn, juvenile pranks, advertisements for weight-loss and penis enlargement pills, and overall crap.


So... does anyone here REALLY want my job?

-Gaillo

[uranian]

i think if anything gets really out of hand, you'll see people using the "report post" button. think i used it twice at GIM. i don't think you should take it so seriously that you're trying to scan every thread for problems, just browse the forum as you normally would, and let the users tell you if there's a problem.

[mamboni]

I've always known these many drawbacks of being a MOD and would never ever be a MOD. I'll be shocked if anyone here takes you up up your offer to be a MOD even for just one day.

Kudos to you Gaillo. You've done an admirable job; but the price you've paid is heavy indeed!

In the medicine field , departments with high stress have a rotating directorship. They use this in Surgery, Emergency Medicine and Internal Medicine. A chief's term is one or two years. MODs should consider limiting terms to 6 months or even less: this would avoid burn out and allow MODs to become regular members and enjoy the forum. ;D

[Ponce]

A moderator is only as good as those that are in the forum with him..............

A good example is Gaillo in this forum............he is extremely lucky that Ponce is here.

Hey, hey........no wise cracks if you please.

[sirgonzo420]

Hell, I'd like to think I could handle it...


....for a day or so at least.

lol

[sunshine05]

I can imagine it would be very time consuming. I agree you are doing a great job. Hopefully if you get too burned out, others will take a turn at it. Please know you are appreciated!

[StackerKen]

i think if anything gets really out of hand, you'll see people using the "report post" button. think i used it twice at GIM. i don't think you should take it so seriously that you're trying to scan every thread for problems, just browse the forum as you normally would, and let the users tell you if there's a problem.



^^^^ Sounds like good advice.

Thanks for your service to this forum Gaillo

[MNeagle]

i think if anything gets really out of hand, you'll see people using the "report post" button. think i used it twice at GIM. i don't think you should take it so seriously that you're trying to scan every thread for problems, just browse the forum as you normally would, and let the users tell you if there's a problem.





^^^^ Sounds like good advice.

Thanks for your service to this forum Gaillo


Agreed! + 1000

[dysgenic]

I'd be willing to do it, but only under certain non negotiable conditions (don't have time to post them right now, but 1 of them would be that PDT and Wondering get reinstated).

dys

[Jenna]

Yep, pretty much figured what elite 'mod' mode was like through the stress conveyed by all the mods the first few days, and I really miss your posts, Gaillo. You are one of the sharpest guys on here but we rarely get to read and enjoy your contributions because a) exhaustive mod duties leave very little energy for active discussion on your end and b) your posts obviously reflect GSuS on a different level, forcing you to tread lightly.

Real shame. We gained a great mod but lost an invaluable poster.

[mamboni]

No I don't want your job.

P.S. If you find any porn posted, please let me know. :P


Are you really a lady?

Is you avatar your visage (I's gots to know)?

[ximmy]

Gaillo.. I have been a moderator and a co-administrator on a very busy forum, so I totally understand what you say.. it truly is a labor of love, with little reward except that we do learn to "work on ourselves" being tolerant, merciful, forgiving, patient, bold, taking chances in anything we write... etc. I do not desire your job. I have been watching you and you do very well...
ximmy

[gunDriller]

* LONG hours, ZERO pay

I don't want this place to degenerate into an anarchistic cesspit of name calling, porn, juvenile pranks, advertisements for weight-loss and penis enlargement pills, and overall crap


how much spam does a forum with this level of traffic have to deal with ?

Jeez, don't the owners at least give you a percentage of future ad revenues or something ? ( or are you the owner )

[1970 Silver Art]

Gaillo,

You are doing a good job as a mod IMO. However, I do NOT want your job as a mod. I could not be a mod because it would be more responsibility and more stress than I am able to handle.

[mamboni]

No I don't want your job.

P.S. If you find any porn posted, please let me know. :P


Are you really a lady?

Is you avatar your visage (I's gots to know)?

The mystery remains.


Tease! (I love it)

[Gaillo]

* LONG hours, ZERO pay

I don't want this place to degenerate into an anarchistic cesspit of name calling, porn, juvenile pranks, advertisements for weight-loss and penis enlargement pills, and overall crap


how much spam does a forum with this level of traffic have to deal with ?

Jeez, don't the owners at least give you a percentage of future ad revenues or something ? ( or are you the owner )


A forum with this level of traffic would have to deal with a LOT MORE commercial spam if it weren't against the rules and immediately erased.

There is no ad revenue on this site, so there's no percentage to divy-up.

I am not the site owner, he is member "JohnQPublic". I have no financial or other ownership interest in this site, and have not asked for any.

[Heimdhal]

Ill take your job you cry baby ninny! ;D

I kid, I kid, I think you are doing a fine job my friend, keep up the good work and dont let it get you down. It is just the internet after all. If Al Gore didnt invent it, you'd likley be moderating the chatter between some house cats or something, and what fun would THAT be?

[FreeEnergy]

Gaillo, I've got a couple of suggestions:
1) I am sure folks can come up with a system to monitor posts automatically (for keywords) and send you an email if something pops up.

2) You can have a moderator-only forum (nobody else sees it), and if you have to delete something that people would give you hard time about, move it there instead. You can also discuss it in there, or use as example to train new troops.

3) if you see the forum identical to how other users see it....this is tough. ask the owner to do this (or hire a programmer, it is cheap) - just build a "moderator view" of new posts. so that you actually see new posts open on one page (or with pagination) instead of clicking around. Makes it so much easier to patrol.

Take it easy. If you don't know what to do, don't do anything and don't stress over it. So what that there will be a couple of name calling threads...like people don't call each other names.

You are doing a great job.

[Horn]

Well, all that's just as well, but does it make it easier to score chicks? ;D

[Nomen luni]

Maximum respect to you, Gaillo. It's a fine line and you are walking it admirably. The more open the forum, the tougher it must be to moderate. Moderating GIM2 would be easy. (sorry, couldn't resist it.)

[NOOB]

Your doing a good job bro. I wouldn't want have your job for all the ban buttons in the world.

[MNeagle]

Don't forget, you're to moderate. You shouldn't have to police or patrol imo.

[dysgenic]

Agreed. I don't believe that it's necessary to scan the boards in more than a cursery way. If no one is complaining about it, it's usually not worth addressing. And if anyone is complaining about it, it's still usually not worth addressing. That's my experience as a former mod.



Don't forget, you're to moderate. You shouldn't have to police or patrol imo.

[Gaillo]

Don't forget, you're to moderate. You shouldn't have to police or patrol imo.


I understand that... but since nobody is pressing the "report to moderator" button, sometimes I have to go "prowling" and look for where the attacks and trouble are happening.

Not here to be "da police" or the bad guy... just trying to do my best for a forum full of my fellow freedom-loving friends!

[freedom42]

It's like being in front of a large audience, giving a speech or performing, KNOWING that no matter what you say or what you do, part of the audience is STILL going to boo you and throw rotten tomatoes.

Well they could come after you with a rope! ;D

http://www.saskatoonlibrary.ca/UserFiles/Image/Kids/Hangman-6.png

[Cebu_4_2]

Gaillo, Do what I did, have people PM you for spam/inappropriate posts and read on. The people will let you know what bothers them and if it doesn't then forget it. If someone posts spam or porn and nobody cares it gets dropped to the bottom in no time.

This place is about freedom of speech, freedom comes with some lawful athority but all in all the BS will take care of itself. Just my opinion of course.

[General of Darkness]

You're doing a great job, if you want make me a mod and within 24 hours I'll completely decimate the fuckers causing trouble, and then when the whiners come out crying about it I'll decimate them too. I'm all about free speech but some people just need to STFU.

[Avalon]

Gaillo, you are doing a fantastic job. I have seriously been worried you are exhausting yourself with the amount of time and care you have been devoting to this. The people here are lucky to have you..

I used to moderate a large all women's forum that was centered around a very controversial subject. The owner wanted no moderation for the first year. It was a free for all with flame wars literally lasting a week at a time. Many people left the board because you could not get any serious posting done with the viscous insults being hurled..Eventually board rules and Moderators had to be put in place or the website would have not survived. All us Moderates kept an anonymous identity and posted under different names. In my opinion that is a better system for the Moderators.

After what I have seen Gaillo go through the last few days I doubt that too many people would want the job. The little women's forum is all I can handle..

[Libertytree]

Maybe I'm steppin' into something I really don't know about here but I really, really hate to see ya get so burned out Gaillo, so much so that you don't /can't enjoy posting, that's a cryin' shame and a waste of your intellect.

I'll spell ya on a rotational basis if you'd like and everyone agrees. It's not fair to deprive you of the ability and freedom to enjoy unfettered discourse all the while I have the benefits of it all with no responsibilities at all.

Let me know.

[dysgenic]

Avalon-

I personally doubt that the bolded happened as you say that it did. Can you please provide the name of the forum and the dates in question so that I can verify this for myself? Ty,

dys




Gaillo, you are doing a fantastic job. I have seriously been worried you are exhausting yourself with the amount of time and care you have been devoting to this. The people here are lucky to have you..

I used to moderate a large all women's forum that was centered around a very controversial subject. The owner wanted no moderation for the first year. It was a free for all with flame wars literally lasting a week at a time. Many people left the board because you could not get any serious posting done with the viscous insults being hurled..Eventually board rules and Moderators had to be put in place or the website would have not survived. All us Moderates kept an anonymous identity and posted under different names. In my opinion that is a better system for the Moderators.

After what I have seen Gaillo go through the last few days I doubt that too many people would want the job. The little women's forum is all I can handle..

[I am me, I am free]

Gaillo, I haven't read this entire thread, but I second what uranian suggested.

FWIW, when Larry owned Frugal Squirrel's (before the psychopath John took it over), we very rarely heard from Larry (and he was the only mod) unless someone brought an all out flame war to his attention, and then he'd briefly surface saying something like "you guys behave yourselves!" and banning when appropriate. He figured we could police ourselves, and for the most part it worked - Larry didn't have a huge work load at FS. I would like to think we could police ourselves.

[Avalon]

Avalon-

I personally doubt that the bolded happened as you say that it did. Can you please provide the name of the forum and the dates in question so that I can verify this for myself? Ty,

dys




Gaillo, you are doing a fantastic job. I have seriously been worried you are exhausting yourself with the amount of time and care you have been devoting to this. The people here are lucky to have you..

I used to moderate a large all women's forum that was centered around a very controversial subject. The owner wanted no moderation for the first year. It was a free for all with flame wars literally lasting a week at a time. Many people left the board because you could not get any serious posting done with the viscous insults being hurled..Eventually board rules and Moderators had to be put in place or the website would have not survived. All us Moderates kept an anonymous identity and posted under different names. In my opinion that is a better system for the Moderators.

After what I have seen Gaillo go through the last few days I doubt that too many people would want the job. The little women's forum is all I can handle..



are you out of your mind..? There is no way I would compromise the identity of that forum. I don't care if you believe me or not.

[dysgenic]

It's a secret forum? Ok, that's what I thought you would say.





Avalon-

I personally doubt that the bolded happened as you say that it did. Can you please provide the name of the forum and the dates in question so that I can verify this for myself? Ty,

dys




Gaillo, you are doing a fantastic job. I have seriously been worried you are exhausting yourself with the amount of time and care you have been devoting to this. The people here are lucky to have you..

I used to moderate a large all women's forum that was centered around a very controversial subject. The owner wanted no moderation for the first year. It was a free for all with flame wars literally lasting a week at a time. Many people left the board because you could not get any serious posting done with the viscous insults being hurled..Eventually board rules and Moderators had to be put in place or the website would have not survived. All us Moderates kept an anonymous identity and posted under different names. In my opinion that is a better system for the Moderators.

After what I have seen Gaillo go through the last few days I doubt that too many people would want the job. The little women's forum is all I can handle..



are you out of your mind..? There is no way I would compromise the identity of that forum. I don't care if you believe me or not.

[Ponce]

By Gaillo: I understand that... but since nobody is pressing the "report to moderator" button, sometimes I have to go "prowling" and look for where the attacks and trouble are happening.

I don't get it, it there is no trouble then why go out looking for trouble?

[Gaillo]

By Gaillo: I understand that... but since nobody is pressing the "report to moderator" button, sometimes I have to go "prowling" and look for where the attacks and trouble are happening.

I don't get it, it there is no trouble then why go out looking for trouble?


Because tempers still flare, people still post commercial spam, and attacks still happen, whether people are reporting it or not. I thought I addressed that in an earlier post? Anyway, it's not that I'm really cruzin' the place "looking for trouble" per se - it's more like a vigilance against the cracks forming - if that makes any sense! 8)

[dysgenic]

Spam: I could understand prowling around looking for it if were an issue here, but based on what I've seen it's not.
Personal attacks: if the person getting attacked isn't bothered enough to complain (or someone else that views the attack), I see no need to do anything about it unless it's a direct and specific threat.
Porn: see spam.

When it come to moderating, less is more.






By Gaillo: I understand that... but since nobody is pressing the "report to moderator" button, sometimes I have to go "prowling" and look for where the attacks and trouble are happening.

I don't get it, it there is no trouble then why go out looking for trouble?


Because tempers still flare, people still post commercial spam, and attacks still happen, whether people are reporting it or not. I thought I addressed that in an earlier post? Anyway, it's not that I'm really cruzin' the place "looking for trouble" per se - it's more like a vigilance against the cracks forming - if that makes any sense! 8)

[Gaillo]

Spam: I could understand prowling around looking for it if were an issue here, but based on what I've seen it's not.

Then I'm doing my job, I suppose! All commercial spam is IMMEDIATELY deleted.


Personal attacks: if the person getting attacked isn't bothered enough to complain (or someone else that views the attack), I see no need to do anything about it unless it's a direct and specific threat.
Porn: see spam.

If that is the policy that the site owner (JohnQPublic) requests, then I will follow it. His current policy, however, is "No personal attacks, No Porn". That's the policy I'm following.


When it come to moderating, less is more.

I tend to agree with that, and try to use it as my "guiding principle" in all this. However, sometimes things are pushed to the point that "more is more", and more is required. So far, this forum has been relatively tame... and for that I can thank all of you for your remarkable degree of self-moderation! 8)

[Gypsybiker45]

By Gaillo: I understand that... but since nobody is pressing the "report to moderator" button, sometimes I have to go "prowling" and look for where the attacks and trouble are happening.

I don't get it, it there is no trouble then why go out looking for trouble?


Because tempers still flare, people still post commercial spam, and attacks still happen, whether people are reporting it or not. I thought I addressed that in an earlier post? Anyway, it's not that I'm really cruzin' the place "looking for trouble" per se - it's more like a vigilance against the cracks forming - if that makes any sense! 8)


yes you have to look, the other day, i posted a crude post concerning someone who i didnt know was a member here, Gaillo notified, the guy was a member and the post couldnt stand, now if he didnt, everyone could just use that as an excuse to post anti-member threads.

[Olmstein]

No I don't want your job.

P.S. If you find any porn posted, please let me know. :P


1. Check the gentleman's forum.

2. Dude looks like a lady.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf0oXY4nDxE&feature=related

[VX1]

Yes, interesting that the “troublemaker” banned so much at GIM, is the top dog moderator here... it says good things about this place (seriously). You’re doing a great job. Hopefully, you can find a couple other troublemakers with your same intellect & disposition to help out soon, cause we do miss your posts.

[Libertytree]

"cause we do miss your posts."

+k VX1

That about sums it up for me.

[SeekYeFirst]

Gaillo, Thanks for a great post. I wondered what your controls looked like. Board seems GREAT to me. Like someone else said, I would rely more on the report-post feature. Please do not get burned out. I would not want your job.
Thanks again

[RJB]

Gaillo, you are a patient man. If you bent backward any further to make people happy you'd be facing forward. :)

[EE_]

I think being a moderator is a great and prestigious job!...would I want it?
Hell nooo! But you are doing a good job and are right for the part.
If I were a mod though, I would consider myself as a member also (like I consider you) and not as a great "father" overseer.
I would have the members have much more say in governing the board, on who stays or goes. What content is allowed and how far differences should be allowed to go. I believe all people have moods that change and some days they may say things they wouldn't other days.
Let people work out their differences and get over it.
If problems persist, they could be moved to the dump thread and off general discussion threads.
Sometimes people need a place to just vent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWN65nAkk20&feature=related

[MAGNES]

I just got in don't know why this is an issue ?

Hopefully it is just Gaillo trying to make some points .

I strongly hope this is not an issue.

I think J6P is a very reasonable person.

Maybe the mods need some help, another 2 members ?

We all need to help and speak up for what is right and reasonable.

I am on the Pravda forum, as magnes, for quite a while,
I do not post there, they have no rules, and the trolls
own the place, they destroy threads and good posts
are lost, I do not post there, it is hard to be constructive.
Have a look at the forum. They have a "bardak" section,
what they do is move problem children and threads that
are a waste of bandwidth to that section, and sometimes
they restrict certain members to that section for a set
time period, that is how they been dealing with trolls.
I also see very disgraceful material on there, calls for violence,
really nasty stuff. You need some rules and decorum .

Right now I see 2 threads that fit this, many see them,
sometimes it is hard not to feed the trolls, lol, I even
removed some of my posts too, not to bump some.

These are forums though, there will always be drama.
Hopefully less as we move along.

[Libertytree]

I would like to think, that we can be racouse and still be mannerly and courteous even in the face of vehement disagreement, statesmen like if you will. If I just wanted to stir sh!t on the net there are any number of playgrounds I could visit and feed chum to wanna be sharkettes, I just don't have the inclination and my time is better spent in real discourse.

[saint]

Gaillo -

Glad to have you ,man.
Don't let the trolls and their socks drive you nuts.

If it all goes bad - you release the hounds and we will have your back.

ST

[k-os]

I can't understand why anyone would want to be a moderator. But as with many of the professions out there (roofer, military, plumber come to mind), I am sure glad someone is willing to do it.

[MarketNeutral]

No I don't want your job.

P.S. If you find any porn posted, please let me know. :P


Are you really a lady?

Is you avatar your visage (I's gots to know)?

The mystery remains.


Tease! (I love it)


http://images.paraorkut.com/img/pics/images/i/internet_dating-3567.bmp

[vacuum]

Yes, interesting that the “troublemaker” banned so much at GIM, is the top dog moderator here... it says good things about this place (seriously). You’re doing a great job. Hopefully, you can find a couple other troublemakers with your same intellect & disposition to help out soon, cause we do miss your posts.

Thats a pretty good, and common, strategy. Take the worst offenders and give them the responsibility to clean things up. Generally they stop offending, and end up having better tools to deal with situations.

[Celtic Rogue]

No I don't want your job.

P.S. If you find any porn posted, please let me know. :P


Are you really a lady?

Is you avatar your visage (I's gots to know)?

The mystery remains.



Yes the mystery and beauty still remain. :dunno

[madfranks]

Gaillo, from one mod to another - don't overdo it. Honestly, I've been pretty impressed with the amount of dedication, time and resources you've put into this forum so far. It's been epic; I've never seen anyone work so hard for no pay. And you're right, we do it because we want the forum to succeed. But it sounds like you're beginning to get over stressed with the responsibility of being a mod. Here's my advice, step back to a comfortable level of moderation, and don't worry about the issues you can't find, answer, or fix. If there are more problems than a couple of casual mods can handle, JQP will recruit another to help us. And I agree that we need to rely more on the members using the reporting feature than to "patrol" the site looking for violations. If nobody reports a post as violating the rules, than obviously nobody is bothered by it and it doesn't matter. At least, that's my take.

[crazychicken]

Avalon-

I personally doubt that the bolded happened as you say that it did. Can you please provide the name of the forum and the dates in question so that I can verify this for myself? Ty,

dys


[quote ]


are you out of your mind..? There is no way I would compromise the identity of that forum. I don't care if you believe me or not.



Blunt- to the point - and damn well said.

Right on Avalon!

CC

[crazychicken]

Gaillo:

Congrats on doing a good job stopping the inmates from running the asylum.

Don't let the bas--rds get you down.

CC

[freedom42]

Thats a pretty good, and common, strategy. Take the worst offenders and give them the responsibility to clean things up. Generally they stop offending, and end up having better tools to deal with situations.


Wisdom might just prevail here after all.

[cedarchopper]

It's not a job, it's a lifestyle....enjoy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :banrasta :banrasta :banrasta