Dr. Scott Johnson - Hebrew Roots/Messianic Christian Zionism Warning

[greenbear]

Christians can fall into the ditch on either side of the straight and narrow road. The ditch on the left side is hatred of Jews and support for dividing the land that God gave to the Jews for an everlasting inheritance.

...the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them...the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever....I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen...be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel...in the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities....For I will...gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land...and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD....I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it. (Deut 1:8; Jer 7:7; Eze 36:11, 22-26, 32-36)

Zechariah 2:8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.

On the other side of the road is the Judiazing of Christianity. The day will come that Israel will receive her promises when she turns again to the Lord and recognizes Jesus Christ as her Messiah. Today, Jews have to become Christians to be saved. Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aagMWBt9mD4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sy8ba0RM3NQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpiZTVRJ1qI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xlKCvD46hg&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeVMNrar1U0&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSCvNTxpi0U&NR=1

There are 60 videos in part one. 19 in part two. :( I've only listened to an hour, so far.

[rurounikitsune]

here is what I got from the first ten minutes. Hebrew Roots Movement is bad because it causes people to:

1. Want to learn the original language of the Scriptures.

2. Consider using other translations of the Bible than a single English translation nearly four hundred years old. (The speaker appears to advocate only the King James version.)

3. Consult commentaries on Scripture that were written by a people who have had the Old Testament for two thousand years before Christ even came.

4. Realize that the Authorized English translation of the Bible is inadequate if one wants to fully study and understand the original manuscripts of Scripture.

5. Seek out more than a simple, childish explanation of verses that have complex concepts rooted in ancient prophecies.

6. Reconsider the foundation of their faith before offering a witness to others of something they have finally realized that they never properly understood.

7. Develop a fascination with the land that Jesus actually walked on, the people that He actually ministered to, and the culture that helped to define that ministry.

8. Leave churches which accuse them of blasphemy for the previous seven points.

I guess I have to disagree that any of those things are bad. I'm not sure I can make it through the rest of the guy's teaching though. It's hard for me to listen to people who come off as arrogant, cocky, and dismissive, even if I agree with them.

[rurounikitsune]

G2Rad,

There is a huge difference between supporting a secular state of Israel and secular Jews who are living in sin, on one hand, and rediscovering the faith of Jesus and the Apostles, which includes things like celebrating Passover, resting on Sabbath (how many people claim Sunday is the sabbath, but then they mow their lawn and watch football on Sunday), and yes, sometimes "praying in a formal manner" as the speaker in these videos puts it.

There are Jews who are doing terrible things, and I think you are right that the enemy rejoices when that happens. But, trying to be like Jesus is not the same as supporting everything everyone who calls themselves Jewish is doing. I have seen some people try to equate the two, as a smear tactic.

[7th trump]

I would like to add, that many Christians supporting Israel are great people.

but

remember, even the very elect will be deceived ???

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

----

When we do something in support of God, would it be not the same as Peter stupidly chopping off the ear?
???

------

( I have not yet listened to the vids, have to run)

No..no..no..!
The Elect are not deceived g2rad.
It says if it were possible.
The Elect know whats going on, so its impossible to deceive them that the fake christ is the real Christ .

[Book]

Christians can fall into the ditch on either side of the straight and narrow road. The ditch on the left side is hatred of Jews and support for dividing the land that God gave to the Jews for an everlasting inheritance.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irIXIy6hNc8&

:oo-->

[7th trump]

No..no..no..!
The Elect are not deceived g2rad.
It says if it were possible.
The Elect know whats going on, so its impossible to deceive them that the fake christ is the real Christ .


Good point.

somehow I was blind to "if it were possible"

thanks, 7th trump

It happens to me to.
I overlook the obvious sometimes.

[greenbear]

These are some my core beliefs on some of these issues, in no particular order, but there is room for fine-tuning, I'm sure.

The regathering of the Jews in unbelief into the land which God gave them for an everlasting inheritance must take place before the seven year tribulation period to fulfill the prophesy of signing a peace covenant with the anti-christ. Israel must exist as a sovereign state for that to happen. There must be a functioning temple by the middle of the tribulation for the prophesies of the abomination of desolation to occur (Daniel 9:27, 11:31, 12:11, Matthew 24:15-26 , Mark 13:14, Luke 21.20-21).

God has throughout history used Israel's enemies to punish her for straying from him. In turn, he judges the nations who persecute her.

Satan hates Israel, he hates the Jews because through them came the oracles of God, and the Saviour of mankind, who defeated him on the cross. Satan hates mankind because he lost what he once had and that, and infinitely more, has been appointed for those who choose to believe God.

Israel and the Church are completely different entities that cannot both be instrumental on the earth at the same time. They have different promises, different roles, different destinies. In his wisdom and mercy, it seems that those promises that God has given to the "dogs" (gentiles) who believe on Christ are superior to those given to the Jews. The Jews have an earthly inheritance, the Church a heavenly.

Strangely enough, the Church has historically tended to covet the promises of Israel, and claimed them for themselves but in doing this she also claims their curses. Israel's promises and curses are not for the church.

Though the Church is to be salt and light to this world, it is not a part of this world system. Neither Christ himself, nor Peter his Apostle to the circumcision, nor Paul his Apostle to the un-circumcision, taught that the Church was to reform the world system, but to call people out of it. This world is not our home, but Christians are strangers and pilgrims waiting for a better home. It's obvious to me that God has used America as a nursemaid to the present day State of Israel. He did that, he has never needed to clean-up the world, or make nations or men perfect or sinless in order to use them to to fulfill his plans. Someday soon he will establish his righteous Kingdom on this earth. He will do it, not Christendom trying to impose righteousness in his stead.

I strongly believe, with no doubts whatsoever, that a dispensational, pre-millennial, pre-tribulational method of studying and understanding the scriptures and end-time events is crucial. It is the only way to understand what God is doing today, and it is the only way to make sure that we as Christians don't find ourselves to be fighting against God.

I believe extreme Christian Zionism has pitfalls. While I stridently support the State of Israel's right to exist, and that all of the land that God gave to her, is hers by right, I'm not sure what the extent of the role of the Church should be in this. God has told us what he is doing; Israel is being gathered in unbelief by him, and he will purge and refine them.

Zechariah 13:8-9 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

My hunch is that the Hebrew Roots movement, and Christian Zionist political activism is an attack from the opposite direction of that of Covenantalism/Domionism (failure to distinguish between literal Israel and the Church), Christian Identity/neo-nazism, Islam, all of which have one thing in common- hatred of Jews and the desire to see the division of their land, and/or their total destruction.

Hebrew Roots, Christian/Zionist political activism, on the other hand, seem to me to be an attempt by Satan and Jewish interests to blur the distinction between literal Israel and the Church to the other extreme. Paul said that the Jews are enemies of the gospel of Christ, but beloved for the father's sakes. God will keep the promises to Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Daniel, David, and all of the prophets in a precise and literal way.

But Christians who have been washed by the blood of Jesus Christ should attempt to draw Jews out of Judaism into the light of the gospel of the grace of God, not take a step backwards into the feasts and sabbaths and other practices that are distinctly Jewish. I believe that is a slippery slope, and no good can come of it. I agree with Dr Johnson that it is similar to denominationalism. It splinters the body of Christ and can easily lead to fleshly pride.

[rurounikitsune]

...take a step backwards into the feasts and sabbaths and other practices that are distinctly Jewish.

The Sabbath was established on Day 7, two thousand years before Abraham, and even longer before any man was ever called "Jew."

The feasts are 100% Christ centered. Look at Passover. Every detail is about Christ. From the pierced, striped, broken unleavened bread, to the spotless lamb with no broken bones. Why else do you you think Paul encouraged the Corinthians to keep the feast in 1 Corinthians 5? It was always about Jesus and still is. Why would we abandon that heritage?

God doesn't say in Leviticus 23, "here are the feasts of the Jews." He says, "Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts." If they are God's feasts, and we are God's children, they are our feasts too. Part of our inheritance in Christ.

I don't presume to judge you for your personal decision to celebrate or not to celebrate the Sabbath or feast days. However, I would ask that you have the same respect and not disparage those who choose to celebrate them, as Paul says in Colossians, "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

[greenbear]

Rurounikitsune,

I don't seek to disrespect anyone here, I am expressing what I have come to believe. I would also like to avoid anger and insults, on my own part, and hopefully on the part of others. I believe these are extremely important topics we are discussing, I don't have all the answers, I would like to be able to flesh it out with people who hold different viewpoints, with a minimum of 'bad blood". I respect your input and your beliefs, though I may not agree with them all. I hope you keep in mind too that I haven't listened to nearly all of what johnson has to say. I posted it because I thought it would be of interest, it has been to me so far, though I don't agree with every word he says, and he can come off as a little abrasive. Like me, I'm sure...


The Sabbath was established on Day 7, two thousand years before Abraham, and even longer before any man was ever called "Jew."
Yes, but where are we told that anyone before Israel was commanded to , or did keep the Sabbath? Even if they were, the Church is not under the Law, but under grace. The two do not mix.


The feasts are 100% Christ centered. Look at Passover. Every detail is about Christ. From the pierced, striped, broken unleavened bread, to the spotless lamb with no broken bones. Why else do you you think Paul encouraged the Corinthians to keep the feast in 1 Corinthians 5? It was always about Jesus and still is. Why would we abandon that heritage?

The feasts and sabbaths were shadows of things to come. Some haven't come yet, but they have to do with the Jews , and prophesy, and the nations during the Millennial Kingdom, not with the Church. Pentacost did, but the Church began as a Jewish entity.

1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.


I don't presume to judge you for your personal decision to celebrate or not to celebrate the Sabbath or feast days. However, I would ask that you have the same respect and not disparage those who choose to celebrate them, as Paul says in Colossians, "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

I'm not judging you, I think you are incorrect, but I think Baptists are incorrect in water baptism, that was a Jewish practice. I believe Charismatics are incorrect, the sign gifts were for Israel. I think you are incorrect, you think I am incorrect. I can live with that. :) We can agree to disagree.

[greenbear]

I would like to add that my lumping of different groups on either end of the spectrum does not mean that I think they necessarily stand for the same things. For instance, I know that many Covenantalists do not hate the Jews, or call for Israel's destruction. I lumped them together because they tend to have commonalities. In the same way, a Christian who is practicing Sabbath-keeping, or the Sader, etc. is not by any means a heretic like John Hagee who teaches that Christians shouldn't preach to the Jews because they are saved under their own covenant with God at this time. The Hebrew Roots movement is more toward the extreme Christian Zionist than say the Dominionists, for example. I haven't given a great deal of thought to these issues before, and I think they are interesting, important, and timely.

Got to go.

[rurounikitsune]

Well I seriously doubt either of us will change our minds but I am not averse to having dialogue with you.


I think Baptists are incorrect in water baptism, that was a Jewish practice.

Christian baptism does indeed have its roots in the Hebrew "mikvah" ... that is not a reason to reject it. God commanded it. Jesus also commanded it before His ascension. There is no other way the disciples would have interpreted his command to baptize their disciples, than to immerse them in a mikvah.


the Church is not under the Law, but under grace. The two do not mix.

There is no grace without Law. If you never broke the Law, you wouldn't need grace. If you are already blameless, because the Law does not apply to you, then you cannot sin, and you need no grace. The very existence of grace depends on the Law. You can't have grace and be without law.


The feasts and sabbaths were shadows of things to come. Some haven't come yet, but they have to do with the Jews , and prophesy, and the nations during the Millennial Kingdom, not with the Church. Pentacost did, but the Church began as a Jewish entity.

This is where you lost me. The feasts are shadows of things to come. Specifically, the first and second comings of Jesus the Messiah. How can you claim this only has to do with the Jews? It is about the only thing we can say really matters to all Christians of all denominations.

The Pentecost statement is even stranger. You acknowledge that the church began as a "Jewish entity." I would say, "sect of Judaism." It is patently obvious that Jesus and his disciples celebrated the feasts. It is obvious that Paul celebrated them as well; when he could make it back to Jerusalem he even made the pilgrimage. What happened? Somehow, later on, it became a bad idea?

The Christians in Asia continued to celebrate Passover, as they had been taught by the apostle John, on the 14th day of Nisan, until at least the late second century (probably much later). Polycrates, bishop of Ephesus, wrote to Rome:

“We observe the genuine day; neither adding thereto nor taking therefrom. For in Asia great lights have fallen asleep, which shall rise again in the day of the Lord’s appearing, in which he will come with the glory from heaven, and will raise up all the saints: Phillip, one of the twelve apostles, who sleeps in Hierapolis, and his two aged virgin daughters; his other daughter; also, who having lived with the influence of the Holy Spirit, now likewise rests in Ephesus; moreover, John, who rested upon the bosom of our Lord, who was also a priest, and bore the sacerdotal plate, both a martyr and teacher; he is buried in Ephesus. Also Polycarp of Smyrna, both bishop and martyr, and Thraseas, both bishop and martyr of Eumenia, who sleeps in Smyrna. Why should I mention Sagaris, bishop and martyr who sleeps in Laodicea; moreover the blessed Papirius and Melito, the eunuch [celibate], who lived altogether under the influence of the Holy Spirit, who now rests in Sardis, awaiting the episcopate from heaven, in which he shall rise from the dead. All these observed the fourteenth day of the passover according to the gospel, deviating in no respect, but following the rule of faith."

Do you accuse John, Phillip, and Polycarp of taking a backwards step into Judiasm?

[greenbear]

Those are very interesting topics to me. I have to do other things I have to do today but hopefully I'll be able to respond at least to a couple of your points tonight.

[greenbear]

...take a step backwards into the feasts and sabbaths and other practices that are distinctly Jewish.

The Sabbath was established on Day 7, two thousand years before Abraham, and even longer before any man was ever called "Jew."

The feasts are 100% Christ centered. Look at Passover. Every detail is about Christ. From the pierced, striped, broken unleavened bread, to the spotless lamb with no broken bones. Why else do you you think Paul encouraged the Corinthians to keep the feast in 1 Corinthians 5? It was always about Jesus and still is. Why would we abandon that heritage?

God doesn't say in Leviticus 23, "here are the feasts of the Jews." He says, "Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts." If they are God's feasts, and we are God's children, they are our feasts too. Part of our inheritance in Christ.


I don't presume to judge you for your personal decision to celebrate or not to celebrate the Sabbath or feast days. However, I would ask that you have the same respect and not disparage those who choose to celebrate them, as Paul says in Colossians, "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."






God doesn't say in Leviticus 23, "here are the feasts of the Jews." He says, "Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts." If they are God's feasts, and we are God's children, they are our feasts too. Part of our inheritance in Christ.

I completely agree that the feasts are forward-looking types of Christ in every detail, that was one of the the purposes of the feasts. This type has been fulfilled, there is no reason to keep it for this reason. The other that comes to mind is as a memorial for the children of Israel. The Passover was a memorial of God passing through the land of Egypt executing judgment on their behalf.

Exodus 12:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying,
Exodus 12:2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.
(I believe the exact count of days of the Jewish calendar have been lost, so the true Passover cannot be kept correctly.)
Exodus 12:3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:
Exodus 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
Exodus 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
Exodus 12:14 And this day shall be unto you (Israel) for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.
Exodus 12:15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.
Exodus 12:16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.
Exodus 12:17 And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.


Moses goes on to give instructions how to take hyssop, dip it in the lamb's blood, and strike the lintel and sideposts of the door with the blood.

Exodus 12:24 And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.
Exodus 12:25 And it shall come to pass, when ye be come to the land which the LORD will give you, according as he hath promised, that ye shall keep this service.
Exodus 12:26 And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say unto you, What mean ye by this service?
Exodus 12:27 That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the LORD'S passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped.

The Lord never brought me out of Egypt, or gave me the land of Israel, so the literal Passover feast does not apply to me.


The giving of the Law of Moses:

Leviticus 23:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Leviticus 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Leviticus 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
Leviticus 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
Leviticus 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.
Leviticus 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
Leviticus 23:7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
Leviticus 23:8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

The feasts were given to physical Israel and their generations! I'm afraid the burden of proof that they are for the gentiles lies in your court.



The feasts are 100% Christ centered. Look at Passover. Every detail is about Christ. From the pierced, striped, broken unleavened bread, to the spotless lamb with no broken bones. Why else do you you think Paul encouraged the Corinthians to keep the feast in 1 Corinthians 5? It was always about Jesus and still is. Why would we abandon that heritage?


The question is whether the Jewish feasts should be kept by the Church today. In the example you gave in Cor 5:8, I don't see that Paul was speaking of keeping the literal feast, rather he was using it as a similitude for the body of Christ (the local Corinthian Church he was addressing).

Throughout the epistle Paul uses OT Jewish typology to illustrate spiritual realities. In 1 Cor 3:16, Paul uses the Temple as metaphor for the believer. In chapter 10 he speaks of baptism unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea, spiritual meat and drink from the Rock that typified Christ. Paul says that, Now these things were our examples.

Paul continues this with the metaphor of leaven.

1 Corinthians 4:18 Now some are puffed up, as though I would not come to you.
1 Corinthians 4:19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.
1 Corinthians 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

The power of the gospel is not in typology but in the preaching of the cross, which is the fulfilment of typology.

It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: (reference to the literal fulfilment of the passover)
Therefore let us keep the feast(Is he really speaking of a literal feast?), not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness (again, leaven as a symbol); but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth (unleavened bread as a symbol). Tell me, how can you keep a literal feast with symbolic bread?

1 Cor 5:1-8 KJB

Paul is warning the Church of Corinth that the leaven (especially heinous fornication) will spread to the whole loaf. The loaf is a metaphor of Christ's body the Church. It follows in the context of this passage that his reference to keeping the feast is also a metaphor. As the Jews had to put away all leaven before the Passover, Christians should put away all sin of wickedness and maliciousness from before him.

[30pcsAg]

Very discerning post greenbear. You seem well grounded. I noticed you localized the church. Maybe you've seen the key to the bride chamber. 8)

[greenbear]

Very discerning post greenbear. You seem well grounded. I noticed you localized the church. Maybe you've seen the key to the bride chamber. 8)


I'm no Baptist Brider, if that's what you mean! If not that, then I have no idea what you are talking about. :)

[greenbear]

(I believe the exact count of days of the Jewish calendar have been lost, so the true Passover cannot be kept correctly.)

James 1:5
If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of El, who gives all generously and without reproach, and it shall be given to him.
6: But he should ask in belief, not doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.
7 For that man should not think that he shall receive whatever from the Master

8: he is a double - minded man, unstable in all his ways

The revealed calendar is not lost, you just have to ask for it!


Who has it been revealed to? And how? Is it secret (occult) knowledge?

[StackerKen]

somebody deprived me of pleasure of giving karma number 100 :'(

;D


snikering....hehe ;)


Sorry G2rad....:)

[greenbear]

Here's a karma for both of you. If I stay up for another hour... who first?

Edit: I already gave Grad a karma today so to be fair it goes to Stacker even though he has more than his share already. ;D (Though you deserve each one :-)

[greenbear]

James 1:5
If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of El, who gives all generously and without reproach, and it shall be given to him.
6: But he should ask in belief, not doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.
7 For that man should not think that he shall receive whatever from the Master

8: he is a double - minded man, unstable in all his ways

The revealed calendar is not lost, you just have to ask for it!


Who has it been revealed to? And how? Is it secret (occult) knowledge?
[/quote]

Do you consider the scriptures occult?

James 1:5
If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of El, who gives all generously and without reproach, and it shall be given to him.
6: But he should ask in belief, not doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.
7 For that man should not think that he shall receive whatever from the Master

8: he is a double - minded man, unstable in all his ways [/quote]





Of course not, Ima. No offense intended, but are you saying it's in the Bible for all to see, or is it a secret that God gives only to some? I don't understand what you are trying to tell me.

[greenbear]

Grad,

Me, too. Something that really bothers me is the idea that scholarship and education is what brings understanding of God's word when the key is faith, believing God at his word, and trusting that he has preserved his word perfectly for us just as he wants it to be. 99% of Bible scholars are apostates. They know Greek and Hebrew, but they don't know God because they won't believe what he says just like a little child. I see this type of pride in Hebrew Roots.

[greenbear]

You will find all answers Father wants you to know by praying with your WHOLE heart.

The answer is there, you just have to ask him for wisdom. It might not come immediately, be persistent and he will reveal wisdom


If you know where it is then maybe you can tell me? :)

[Jazkal]

It is obedience to God's word that brings Wisdom and Knowledge. (see Isa 28:9-13, Hosea 14:9)

God tells us he is going to speak to his people in a foreign tongue, and stutter, just to cause them to stumble, be broken and snared and taken captive.

[7th trump]

Grad,

Me, too. Something that really bothers me is the idea that scholarship and education is what brings understanding of God's word when the key is faith, believing God at his word, and trusting that he has preserved his word perfectly for us just as he wants it to be. 99% of Bible scholars are apostates. They know Greek and Hebrew, but they don't know God because they won't believe what he says just like a little child. I see this type of pride in Hebrew Roots.

I only have a few things to say about this.
Jesus only approved the churches of Smirna and Phillidelphia out of seven churches.
And the whole world is going to worship the devil when he sets foot on this earth in a very short time.


As far as children not listening to God.
Well God says you must become like a child to enter the Kingdom. That kind of is going against what you are saying Green.
You must be like a child who beleives everything his father says to enter the Kingdom. So you must beleive what God says about Himself and the Kingdom. Yes there are many scriptures in parabal form and it must be searched to understand them.

[rurounikitsune]

I don't have the time or the inclination to respond to everything that's been posted so far. It looks like y'all have made up your minds.

Just keep in mind that Jesus never told us anything. He didn't come for Gentiles, and he very rarely ministered to Gentiles. It wasn't until after his resurrection that he sent his disciples to the Gentiles. We are grafted in to a Jewish root, saved by the blood of a Jewish messiah, reading a bible written by Jews, believing a gospel that was originally disseminated by Jews who believed and understood the message.

If you want to understand what Jesus was saying but you have no desire to learn about the language he spoke, the idioms of his people, the teaching style of his time period, the common religious arguments of the day, etc., etc. Then you will never fully understand his message. You will just have to pick what you believe without having the ability to understand why. It's like reading the newspaper to get a handle on current events. You are always relying on someone else's interpretation. And most Bible teachers don't have a clue what they are talking about because they act as if the English bible came down from Heaven on a pillow with their name embroidered on it.

[7th trump]

I don't have the time or the inclination to respond to everything that's been posted so far. It looks like y'all have made up your minds.

Just keep in mind that Jesus never told us anything. He didn't come for Gentiles, and he very rarely ministered to Gentiles. It wasn't until after his resurrection that he sent his disciples to the Gentiles. We are grafted in to a Jewish root, saved by the blood of a Jewish messiah, reading a bible written by Jews, believing a gospel that was originally disseminated by Jews who believed and understood the message.

If you want to understand what Jesus was saying but you have no desire to learn about the language he spoke, the idioms of his people, the teaching style of his time period, the common religious arguments of the day, etc., etc. Then you will never fully understand his message. You will just have to pick what you believe without having the ability to understand why. It's like reading the newspaper to get a handle on current events. You are always relying on someone else's interpretation. And most Bible teachers don't have a clue what they are talking about because they act as if the English bible came down from Heaven on a pillow with their name embroidered on it.

You are gonna get a lot of smites for what you just said........I know I get them all the time when I tell them they need to go use a concordence to understand the scripture in their own language.
But hey who am I to tell them anything?
I'm ridaculed and smited all the time because i'm tired of telling them time and time again their faults.
Some are just plain lazy and want to beleive what they want to hear.

[Rossonero]

I don't have the time or the inclination to respond to everything that's been posted so far. It looks like y'all have made up your minds.

Just keep in mind that Jesus never told us anything. He didn't come for Gentiles, and he very rarely ministered to Gentiles. It wasn't until after his resurrection that he sent his disciples to the Gentiles. We are grafted in to a Jewish root, saved by the blood of a Jewish messiah, reading a bible written by Jews, believing a gospel that was originally disseminated by Jews who believed and understood the message.

If you want to understand what Jesus was saying but you have no desire to learn about the language he spoke, the idioms of his people, the teaching style of his time period, the common religious arguments of the day, etc., etc. Then you will never fully understand his message. You will just have to pick what you believe without having the ability to understand why. It's like reading the newspaper to get a handle on current events. You are always relying on someone else's interpretation. And most Bible teachers don't have a clue what they are talking about because they act as if the English bible came down from Heaven on a pillow with their name embroidered on it.


rk,
I'm fully behind you on this one. The problem is a very fundamental one which you have already identified (regarding the law). Once a person's mind is made up regarding the law, it completely reshapes their view of the entire Scripture. Ignoring history makes matters worse. Some people just like living in candy land as they fill up on gumdrops and race toward the candy castle to meet their king kandy.

If you have had success getting people to understand this fundamental element, I'd like to know how you did it.

[greenbear]

I don't have the time or the inclination to respond to everything that's been posted so far. It looks like y'all have made up your minds.

Just keep in mind that Jesus never told us anything. He didn't come for Gentiles, and he very rarely ministered to Gentiles. It wasn't until after his resurrection that he sent his disciples to the Gentiles. We are grafted in to a Jewish root, saved by the blood of a Jewish messiah, reading a bible written by Jews, believing a gospel that was originally disseminated by Jews who believed and understood the message.

If you want to understand what Jesus was saying but you have no desire to learn about the language he spoke, the idioms of his people, the teaching style of his time period, the common religious arguments of the day, etc., etc. Then you will never fully understand his message. You will just have to pick what you believe without having the ability to understand why. It's like reading the newspaper to get a handle on current events. You are always relying on someone else's interpretation. And most Bible teachers don't have a clue what they are talking about because they act as if the English bible came down from Heaven on a pillow with their name embroidered on it.



Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Rurounikitsune, there is a lot to be learned from Jewish Feasts and customs, they greatly augment understanding of the scriptures that came through God's chosen people, and that he first combined into a book and gave it to the "dogs"(gentiles). Especially the prophetic writings, without understanding Israel and the old covenant, the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings we don't get far. But they are there for our learning and admonition, not for our practice.


Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

I'm sorry if this offends you.

However, if you have a saving belief in Christ Jesus as your Saviour, then you are my brother in Christ.

I think highly of Chuck Missler, for example. He travels to Israel, has personal friendships with Rabbis, has probably attended Passover Saders, and probably much more. He knows there is so much to learn from them regarding their understanding of the Torah, Feasts, etc. But he does not put himself back under the Old Covenant. He knows that it is dead. Never to be revived.

God will establish a new covenant with Israel. The early Jewish Church was the promise of the new covenant spoken of by Jeremiah, but the promise was rejected by the Jews at that time. When the Jewish remnant accepts Jesus Christ as their Messiah, God's New Covenant with them commences.

In the mean time, God's people are largely the "dogs". In his unfathomable wisdom and mercy, he has given the dogs greater things, heavenly promises. Any Jew living during the Church age has access to God through Jesus Christ only through the largely gentile church. This is his program for today.

Messianic Jews may desire the earthly promises that belong to the physical descendants of Israel, but they are a couple of millennia too late. If only they, as well as gentile Christians, would realize that the Church has better promises.

Edit: Do you have any opinion or insight into the feast and corresponding trumpet sound that 1Co 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 refer to? I would love to hear it if you do.

[philo beddoe]

Chuck Missler can kiss my ass

[greenbear]

Chuck Missler can kiss my ass


Thank you for your thoughtful input, Philo beddoe.

[greenbear]

Wow, G2rad, I've only listened to 20 parts so far. I agree with you from what I've heard so far. It really helps shed light on certain passages of the NT. This is a much needed information and teaching today.