The Last Days - The Days of Noah - The Great Exodus and more

[Spectrism]

The bible gives us many references for how things can unfold. Are we given specific clues about what we are experiencing today and what is to come?

If we look at the recorded events of the bible and apply them to our current situation, is there a valuable lesson for us?

I have many ideas about these and see things aligning for just those lessons. Let's use this thread to investigate some things we have learned.

Let me start with Exodus.
Moses was born in Egypt to an Israelite slave. At that time, the Israelites were not allowed to have children and his life was to be ended by Pharoah's decree. This is similar to the day of Messiah when Herod got word of a new king supposedly born among the Jews.

Later, Moses was chosen by YHWH to lead the Israelites out of Egypt (symbolic of bondage/ slavery). Pharoah refused to let them go. At that time, the Egyptians worshipped many gods. The plagues brought onto the Egyptians made a mockery of all their gods right up to Pharoah's son.

Here is what I expect to happen. The gods of this world will be taken down one by one until the biggest one is hit. Identifying those "gods" will clue us in to some of the plagues we are about to see.

[Book]

If we look at the recorded events of the bible and apply them to our current situation, is there a valuable lesson for us?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLbFXE6kGC0

The valuable lesson for us here is that the current malignant tumor growing upon Palestine calling itself "The State Of Israel" has nothing whatsoever to do with the Bible.

:oo-->

[Spectrism]

OK bookster... got it. Are you a believer that these are the end days?

If what you say is true- and the video is showing a false group of biological "Jews"... then the establishment of a new temple and beginning a blood sacrifice again would be a double abomination. First, it is a denail of the Messiah as the final and only effective blood sacrifice. Secondly, it would be non-Levitical priests.

Don't alot of Jews claim true Judah or Benjamin bloodlines to the original tribes?

And, is it only the bloodline that makes the Jew?

[7th trump]

OK bookster... got it. Are you a believer that these are the end days?

If what you say is true- and the video is showing a false group of biological "Jews"... then the establishment of a new temple and beginning a blood sacrifice again would be a double abomination. First, it is a denail of the Messiah as the final and only effective blood sacrifice. Secondly, it would be non-Levitical priests.

Don't alot of Jews claim true Judah or Benjamin bloodlines to the original tribes?

And, is it only the bloodline that makes the Jew?

Are you a beleiver these days are the end times Spec?

[Book]

And, is it only the bloodline that makes the Jew?

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/1950_1959/Law%20of%20Return%205710-1950

Duh. Yo Mama gotta be a Jew or immigrant Citizenship is denied by The State of Israel:



"Rights of members of family

4A. (a) The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law, 5712-1952***, as well as the rights of an oleh under any other enactment, are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew, except for a person who has been a Jew and has voluntarily changed his religion.

[Spectrism]

Are you a beleiver these days are the end times Spec?



Yes. The signs are securing that conclusion every day.

I believe that we cannot exist past 2018 at the absolute latest. I think our days may actually be limited to a date much closer than that. The turmoil I anticipate even in 2010 is enough to make men faint in fear. It will get worse.

What are the gods of Amerika?

money
safety
healthcare
liesure time
sex
comfort
entertainment
food?
freedom
choice

Now break these down to their controllers / profiters and you will see the places that are about to start getting thumped.

[greenbear]

It's been the "last days" since the time of Christ. I imagine that people during WWII thought the end was here. The early Church thought the same thing as they endured persecution. Just because America and the West are going down, doesn't mean that the end is right around the corner. It may be, but not necessarily. Power, wealth, and freedom do appear to be moving East. Maybe the new motto should be "Go East, young man".

Western Christians may suffer persecution just like Christians throughout the world have suffered, and are suffering now. Or the Lord could come for his Church in the next moment. We just do not know. The prophetic timeclock has been stopped during the Church Age, and will not start up again until after the Church is raptured off this earth. At that point, the Jews will sign a peace treaty with the man of sin.

[Kali]

Yes. The signs are securing that conclusion every day.

I believe that we cannot exist past 2018 at the absolute latest.


You are figuring 70 years for a generation starting in 1948 right?

Could be but I wouldn't put an exact year on it.

I agree we are in the end times...I'd be surprised if the Body of Christ is here in the next 5 or so years.

[Kali]

It's been the "last days" since the time of Christ. I imagine that people during WWII thought the end was here. The early Church thought the same thing as they endured persecution. Just because America and the West are going down, doesn't mean that the end is right around the corner.


People may have thought this throughout time but the things (signs) that are said to happen beforehand didn't happen back then.

It would have been biblicallyimpossible for the end to have come anytime prior to the last couple of decades.

There are things that take place in the end that can only be possible in the past few years.

[greenbear]

It's been the "last days" since the time of Christ. I imagine that people during WWII thought the end was here. The early Church thought the same thing as they endured persecution. Just because America and the West are going down, doesn't mean that the end is right around the corner.


People may have thought this throughout time but the things (signs) that are said to happen beforehand didn't happen back then.

It would have been biblicallyimpossible for the end to have come anytime prior to the last couple of decades.

There are things that take place in the end that can only be possible in the past few years.



It would have been biblically impossible for the end to have come anytime prior to the last couple of decades.

Most didn't understand that at that time, though. Assuming you are pre-trib: I don't see where the Church couldn't be raptured at any time, there is nothing that has to happen first for that to take place.


There are things that take place in the end that can only be possible in the past few years.

Like what? :)

[Kali]

Assuming you are pre-trib: I don't see where the Church couldn't be raptured at any time, there is nothing that has to happen first for that to take place.

At anytime now it can, sure.


There are things that take place in the end that can only be possible in the past few years.


Like what? :)


There's a whole bunch of stuff. Check out the Book of Revelation. Think technology.

[Spectrism]

What are the gods of Amerika?

money
safety
healthcare
liesure time
sex
comfort
entertainment
food?
freedom
choice

Now break these down to their controllers / profiters and you will see the places that are about to start getting thumped.


nice list.

nations worshiping science and technology sacrifice procreation and happiness.

does that qualify?


Good one... add science & technology. Science & technology in their pure sense are neutral.... like money. It is how we pervert them that matters. Actually, all of these things are good until we build our worlds around them. So, what are we focused on? That is our god.




It's been the "last days" since the time of Christ. I imagine that people during WWII thought the end was here. The early Church thought the same thing as they endured persecution. Just because America and the West are going down, doesn't mean that the end is right around the corner. It may be, but not necessarily. Power, wealth, and freedom do appear to be moving East. Maybe the new motto should be "Go East, young man".

Western Christians may suffer persecution just like Christians throughout the world have suffered, and are suffering now. Or the Lord could come for his Church in the next moment. We just do not know. The prophetic timeclock has been stopped during the Church Age, and will not start up again until after the Church is raptured off this earth. At that point, the Jews will sign a peace treaty with the man of sin.


There will be no "pre-tribulation" rapture. After much study, I have come to believe that there will be at best a mid-trib rapture. The cult of the pre-trib rapturists have misapplied scripture and ignored parts.

[7th trump]

It's been the "last days" since the time of Christ. I imagine that people during WWII thought the end was here. The early Church thought the same thing as they endured persecution. Just because America and the West are going down, doesn't mean that the end is right around the corner. It may be, but not necessarily. Power, wealth, and freedom do appear to be moving East. Maybe the new motto should be "Go East, young man".

Western Christians may suffer persecution just like Christians throughout the world have suffered, and are suffering now. Or the Lord could come for his Church in the next moment. We just do not know. The prophetic timeclock has been stopped during the Church Age, and will not start up again until after the Church is raptured off this earth. At that point, the Jews will sign a peace treaty with the man of sin.

green are you a beleiver in the rapture?

[StackerKen]

Jesus gives us some info on this subject here in Matthew 24



35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


...............................

Im not sure, but I think when I read this it may be the evil ones that are taken away.
Am i wrong?

Doesn't a rapture mean that Jesus would be coming back twice?
Once for the church, then again later to establish his kingdom on earth?



I think a Rapture would be nice. and I hope it happens If God is willing of course.

But, Im not counting on it.

I am counting on Jesus coming back though :)

[greenbear]

What are the gods of Amerika?

money
safety
healthcare
liesure time
sex
comfort
entertainment
food?
freedom
choice

Now break these down to their controllers / profiters and you will see the places that are about to start getting thumped.


nice list.

nations worshiping science and technology sacrifice procreation and happiness.

does that qualify?


Good one... add science & technology. Science & technology in their pure sense are neutral.... like money. It is how we pervert them that matters. Actually, all of these things are good until we build our worlds around them. So, what are we focused on? That is our god.




It's been the "last days" since the time of Christ. I imagine that people during WWII thought the end was here. The early Church thought the same thing as they endured persecution. Just because America and the West are going down, doesn't mean that the end is right around the corner. It may be, but not necessarily. Power, wealth, and freedom do appear to be moving East. Maybe the new motto should be "Go East, young man".

Western Christians may suffer persecution just like Christians throughout the world have suffered, and are suffering now. Or the Lord could come for his Church in the next moment. We just do not know. The prophetic timeclock has been stopped during the Church Age, and will not start up again until after the Church is raptured off this earth. At that point, the Jews will sign a peace treaty with the man of sin.


There will be no "pre-tribulation" rapture. After much study, I have come to believe that there will be at best a mid-trib rapture. The cult of the pre-trib rapturists have misapplied scripture and ignored parts.



Spectrism, Pre-tribulationism is not a cult. I'm glad you've studied a lot, but apparently you're not sure if you hold a mid-trib or post trib position yet? Others have studied a lot and have come to a pre-trib position without misapplying or ignoring scripture.

[greenbear]

It's been the "last days" since the time of Christ. I imagine that people during WWII thought the end was here. The early Church thought the same thing as they endured persecution. Just because America and the West are going down, doesn't mean that the end is right around the corner. It may be, but not necessarily. Power, wealth, and freedom do appear to be moving East. Maybe the new motto should be "Go East, young man".

Western Christians may suffer persecution just like Christians throughout the world have suffered, and are suffering now. Or the Lord could come for his Church in the next moment. We just do not know. The prophetic timeclock has been stopped during the Church Age, and will not start up again until after the Church is raptured off this earth. At that point, the Jews will sign a peace treaty with the man of sin.

green are you a beleiver in the rapture?


Yes.

[StackerKen]

I wanted to add that there is no doubt that some will be "taken away"

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

"Who" will be taken is the only question.

and I don't know yet.

[7th trump]

Jesus gives us some info on this subject here in Matthew 24



35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


...............................

Im not sure, but I think when I read this it may be the evil ones that are taken away.
Am i wrong?

Doesn't a rapture mean that Jesus would be coming back twice?
Once for the church, then again later to establish his kingdom on earth?



I think a Rapture would be nice. and I hope it happens If God is willing of course.

But, Im not counting on it.

I am counting on Jesus coming back though :)

Ken,
The rapture is not even in the Bible. This rapture doctrine is satans MO. Satan appears at the 6th trump, the 6th seal and the 6th vail.......666. When the fake christ appears he's having a tribulation like non other. Its gonna be one big church revival where his method of operation is to rapture everyone away. A chicken in every pot and mortgages paid in full if you worship him.
How else do you think the devil is going to get the whole world to worship him?......................looking like the devil with a pitch fork murdering everyone? No of course not! Who's going to worship someone like that? Even the blind would know its satan.
In Revelations the devil looks just like the Lamb and has horns (power) but his voice is like the serpent.......................because he is the serpent play acting Jesus Christ.
Be real sceptical of anyone who beleives in the rapture doctrine...................they've already been fooled in beleiving satan is Jesus Christ.

[7th trump]

I wanted to add that there is no doubt that some will be "taken away"

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

"Who" will be taken is the only question.

and I don't know yet.

Those who are taken are the ones who beleive the fake christ (satan) is the real Christ.
They will leave the field to worship satan. The one left will continue on Gods work in the field until the real Christ appears at the 7th trump.

[7th trump]

It's been the "last days" since the time of Christ. I imagine that people during WWII thought the end was here. The early Church thought the same thing as they endured persecution. Just because America and the West are going down, doesn't mean that the end is right around the corner. It may be, but not necessarily. Power, wealth, and freedom do appear to be moving East. Maybe the new motto should be "Go East, young man".

Western Christians may suffer persecution just like Christians throughout the world have suffered, and are suffering now. Or the Lord could come for his Church in the next moment. We just do not know. The prophetic timeclock has been stopped during the Church Age, and will not start up again until after the Church is raptured off this earth. At that point, the Jews will sign a peace treaty with the man of sin.

green are you a beleiver in the rapture?


Yes.

Figures, I've should have known you did. Makes sense now!

[StackerKen]

]Ken,
The rapture is not even in the Bible. This rapture doctrine is satans MO. Satan appears at the 6th trump, the 6th seal and the 6th vail.......666. When the fake christ appears he's having a tribulation like non other. Its gonna be one big church revival where his method of operation is to rapture everyone away. A chicken in every pot and mortgages paid in full if you worship him.
How else do you think the devil is going to get the whole world to worship him?......................looking like the devil with a pitch fork murdering everyone? No of course not! Who's going to worship someone like that? Even the blind would know its satan.
In Revelations the devil looks just like the Lamb and has horns (power) but his voice is like the serpent.......................because he is the serpent play acting Jesus Christ.
Be real sceptical of anyone who beleives in the rapture doctrine...................they've already been fooled in beleiving satan is Jesus Christ.


7th; That is a little harsh.
We know some will be fooled. yes.
But not the elect. and we know that those who believe on Jesus are the elect. Right?

[StackerKen]

7th: Please don't cause division over this.

please read the quote below and try to grasp it.


In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.

I think of the above saying from St. Augustine that John Wesley liked to quote whenever I am trying to decide if an issue is important enough to divide over, or if it should just be a matter of friendly debate. There are some things Christians must agree on, such as the Divinity of Jesus, the accuracy and authority of the Bible, that Jesus is the only way to salvation, etc. If we don’t agree on those then we’ve got big problems. But we should be as charitable as possible when disagreeing.

[7th trump]

]Ken,
The rapture is not even in the Bible. This rapture doctrine is satans MO. Satan appears at the 6th trump, the 6th seal and the 6th vail.......666. When the fake christ appears he's having a tribulation like non other. Its gonna be one big church revival where his method of operation is to rapture everyone away. A chicken in every pot and mortgages paid in full if you worship him.
How else do you think the devil is going to get the whole world to worship him?......................looking like the devil with a pitch fork murdering everyone? No of course not! Who's going to worship someone like that? Even the blind would know its satan.
In Revelations the devil looks just like the Lamb and has horns (power) but his voice is like the serpent.......................because he is the serpent play acting Jesus Christ.
Be real sceptical of anyone who beleives in the rapture doctrine...................they've already been fooled in beleiving satan is Jesus Christ.


7th; That is a little harsh.
We know some will be fooled. yes.
But not the elect. and we know that those who believe on Jesus are the elect. Right?

No, not everyone who beleives in Jesus are the Elect!
Theres gonna be a lot of people....old and young not make it because they were fooled into beleiving the rapture doctrine. The bottom line is this: Wooo.......to those who are giving suckle in the end days".
What this says is that anybody (life long church goers and all) giving suckle were not faithful while Jesus was away. Basically you are nursing along satans church whorshiping the instead of christ when the real Christ steps foot on earth at the 7th trump.
If I'm a little harsh so be it. green is nobody to take lightly with her doctrine. I simple refuse to give credence to anybody who beleive in the rapture doctrine. The rapture doctrine came about from the late 1880's from a mentally disturb woman who said to two priests that the fly away could happen at anytime. These two idiot preists beleived it and here we are today.

[greenbear]

Thanks, Ken for saying that is a "little harsh". :'(

I've spent hundreds of hours on GIM and now on GSUS thinking, studying, and writing responses, giving arguments from scripture for what I believe. Often I spend hours writing responses to stock, rote arguments that a person can get off the internet, or type out in two minutes. I've learned a lot doing this, and it has been my choice to do this, but I feel disheartened right now because it doesn't make any difference, it just makes me a target for insults and character assassination.


To all on this thread- The truth is the truth, regardless of what any one of us wants to believe. The truth about something as complex as eschatology is not found by interpreting passages without comparing them with other scriptures. Comparing spiritual things with spiritual, the scriptures interpret themselves. Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Study is not listening to some teacher on the radio, debating on a forum, or just reading someone's books on prophecy, but being like the Bereans and with readiness of mind searching the scriptures to see if these things be so. We are told to rightly divide the word of truth. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Dispensationalism, pre, mid, or post trib understandings are not something that Christians should divide over. However, eschatology is a topic of great importance today.

[7th trump]

Thanks, Ken for saying that is a "little harsh". :'(

I've spent hundreds of hours on GIM and now on GSUS thinking, studying, and writing responses, giving arguments from scripture for what I believe. Often I spend hours writing responses to stock, rote arguments that a person can get off the internet, or type out in two minutes. I've learned a lot doing this, and it has been my choice to do this, but I feel disheartened right now because it doesn't make any difference, it just makes me a target for insults and character assassination.


To all on this thread- The truth is the truth, regardless of what any one of us wants to believe. The truth about something as complex as eschatology is not found by interpreting passages without comparing them with other scriptures. Comparing spiritual things with spiritual, the scriptures interpret themselves. Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Study is not listening to some teacher on the radio, debating on a forum, or just reading someone's books on prophecy, but being like the Bereans and with readiness of mind searching the scriptures to see if these things be so. We are told to rightly divide the word of truth. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Dispensationalism, pre, mid, or post trib understandings are not something that Christians should divide over. However, eschatology is a topic of great importance today.





You insult yourself green. I'm just pointing it out......your belief faults.
You are beleiving what an insane person said from the 1880's green. Have you ever researched where the fly away doctrine (AKA rapture) came from? Apparently not!
So much for your attempt to save your behind with this "studying" and "comparing" the scriptures to see the truth.

[Spectrism]

I happen to agree with the Trumpster on alot of this.

The concept of pre-tribulation rapture is a fairly recent addition to the interpretation of scripture.

Don't get upset over this. Let's search out the truth.

For many years I did not take a stand on the rapture as I just did not have any solid convictions- and frankly, I had not looked into it seriously. I watched some arguments flare around me and took no sides. As I looked more into this, the answer became more obvious.

Ken- you asked about the taken away part... as in the days of Noah. First, I think the message is that people will be living as they always had and mocking the prophets. The comparison of the different locations for people tells us: it cuts across social classes, the seasons for harvest will still be happening (as promised), there will be a separation.

The taken away part could apply only to the flood portion.... but you are right, the idea of being taken away is NOT good. This is foundational in rapture teaching. Rapturists use this as being "caught up".


Now, there will be a "catching up", but it will be at a specified time: at the LAST TRUMP.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.



1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Here we see it is when the Messiah returns. How will He return? Just as He left-

Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.



1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This will not be some secret rendezvous. It will be open, blatant, triumphant.

[greenbear]

Spectrism,

I didn't say I was "upset", I said I was "disheartened". Not so much by trumps comments, they are what I would expect, but that you and Ken would dismiss me and my views so lightly, and that with apparent disdain. That's my problem, though, it doesn't matter what I say or think, what matters is Truth.

I have held a dispensational, pre-mill, pre-trib, position for many years. please don't take this the wrong way, but I hope you realize that all the arguments pro and con aren't new to me. My intent is not to brag, or set myself up as more "learned", etc, but just so you know where I'm coming from. I've read probably 50 books on both sides of the issue, countless articles, hours of tapes, comparing all information to the scriptures. Just trying to let you know I didn't just fall off the turnip truck. :)

No hard feelings, I have been neglecting my huge gardening tasks, and everything else in my life since this board started so I don't want to get into dispensationalism, pre-trib, issues now. It's just too big a bite to tear into right now, as you may know.

Anyway, not a single one of us Christians is right about every single thing, and someday real soon the Lord Jesus Christ will explain everything to us. Then we will have perfect unity in the Spirit.

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

1 Corinthians chapter 13

[7th trump]

Spectrism,

I didn't say I was "upset", I said I was "disheartened". Not so much by trumps comments, they are what I would expect, but that you and Ken would dismiss me and my views so lightly, and that with apparent disdain. That's my problem, though, it doesn't matter what I say or think, what matters is Truth.

I have held a dispensational, pre-mill, pre-trib, position for many years. please don't take this the wrong way, but I hope you realize that all the arguments pro and con aren't new to me. My intent is not to brag, or set myself up as more "learned", etc, but just so you know where I'm coming from. I've read probably 50 books on both sides of the issue, countless articles, hours of tapes, comparing all information to the scriptures. Just trying to let you know I didn't just fall off the turnip truck. :)

No hard feelings, I have been neglecting my huge gardening tasks, and everything else in my life since this board started so I don't want to get into dispensationalism, pre-trib, issues now. It's just too big a bite to tear into right now, as you may know.

Anyway, not a single one of us Christians is right about every single thing, and someday real soon the Lord Jesus Christ will explain everything to us. Then we will have perfect unity in the Spirit.

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

1 Corinthians chapter 13

Green I'm sorry if I'am harsh.
However, like Spec says do not get all upset. Seek the truth. I do admire your conviction. Who wouldn,t but refine yourself with the truth.
You know truth is not a respecter of persons. And if we are to stand by the truth we cannot be respecter of persons. Its doesnt work if you do. Its like being a mother and friend to your children.......it doesnt work very well.If you deviate from it to either side it will bite you. Its a double edge sword and a mightly narrow one at that.
My message is that the truth is there is going to be a fake christ come first.
This is the message that the churches of Phillidelphia and Smirna taught and why Jesus approved these two out of seven.

[Spectrism]

Dis-heartened?

Come on Greenie! When I first got introduced to the post trib side, a very senior student / teacher was calling me a devil, son of the devil, lost Messiah-hating cultist.... etc. I have been whipped before over seeking the truth.

There was no disdain expressed for you here. No disregard for your view without having considered it. Perhaps you have been studying this longer and harder than I. That may be. I am a midget in a world of spiritual giants. A slow learner. A dullard who mulls things over and takes long to figure them out.

In this, I cannot see any other way.... at the moment. I cannot think that the new age Amerikan will be protected while the rest of the Church is being tortured in various places- India, Africa, China, etc. The end will come when the Messiah returns and nowhere can I find that there will be two returns. Is it possible? I suppose.

Anyway- I too have neglected chores and understand your need to do those.

[StackerKen]

Sister Greenbear;

I hope you know that I have the utmost respect for you and your posts.

I enjoy reading your posts and I hope you don't stay away too much.

Many times I have almost attacked your attackers . But I don't, because I know you can defend yourself here.

I don't have a stand on the tribulation.

I say "Gods will be done"

I really don't think I need to know if there will be a rapture or not..

But is does make interesting conversation.

[Saul Mine]

There isn't anything in this topic worth fighting about. Everybody, simply everybody, muddles things together to support their version and the bible does not clearly support any of those versions. We can only conclude that God didn't want us to be certain about timing. After all, there is nothing you would do differently if you knew the rapture would be pre- mid- or post, is there?

Some things we do know for certain:
* Jesus will return twice. The first time for his saints, the second time with his saints. The first time he does not touch the Earth, the second time he sets foot on the Mount of Olives and it splits, north/south.
* There will be some conversions on Earth after Jesus takes his saints up.
* Jesus was a Jew speaking to Jews. His words may or may not apply to christians. Be careful when applying his statements to current conditions.
* God did not/does not/will not need man's technology to perform His will.

[7th trump]

There isn't anything in this topic worth fighting about. Everybody, simply everybody, muddles things together to support their version and the bible does not clearly support any of those versions. We can only conclude that God didn't want us to be certain about timing. After all, there is nothing you would do differently if you knew the rapture would be pre- mid- or post, is there?

Some things we do know for certain:
* Jesus will return twice. The first time for his saints, the second time with his saints. The first time he does not touch the Earth, the second time he sets foot on the Mount of Olives and it splits, north/south.
* There will be some conversions on Earth after Jesus takes his saints up.
* Jesus was a Jew speaking to Jews. His words may or may not apply to christians. Be careful when applying his statements to current conditions.
* God did not/does not/will not need man's technology to perform His will.

Hahahaha......................................any proof what you are saying about Jesus returning twice or Jesus taking the Saints up first or a conversion?
Anything at all to back up your statements?


Any proof of a mystical rapture?
The scripture you refer to as going up t oa cloud doesnt sday anything that anybody will be gone. It just says that the Elect will go up to a body of air to meet Jesus. Ever look up the word "air" in the concordence to see what it means?
Doesnt mean going up in a cloud. Means you will be meeting Jesus in a spiritual body.......thats all. Nothing about being taken away.
Nobody is going anywhere my friend. If the Elect remain on earth to witness (allow God to speak through them) what makes you think a commoner is above the Elect to fly away?

[Saul Mine]

How To Enjoy The Bible (http://philologos.org/%5F%5Feb%2Dhtetb/) Free download, or you can get a hard copy at any bible book store.

[StackerKen]

I find 7th trumps's hate towards GB to be pathetic.

:)

The guy never supports his so-called "ideas" with scripture. ::)

Never delivered on his promises, which tells tales of his credibility :-\

never apologized for insults :boohoo

f-words, labeling people idiots, profanity :(

he is not a gentleman the way he talks to ladies

His contribution of hate and dirt became as annoying as his lectures :P on what "concordance" is ;D

Worst of all is his deep-rooted hate ( even towards Christians) and I dare say disrespect towards the Bible. :(




http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h55/baytraderken/applauding-hands.gif


Your right Grad.

I should have spoken up. I don't know why I didn't

You are the bigger man for doing so. and I commend you.

7th; I think you should apologize to Greenbear.

[StackerKen]

There isn't anything in this topic worth fighting about.



You are absolutely correct about that Saul.

[Spectrism]

There isn't anything in this topic worth fighting about. Everybody, simply everybody, muddles things together to support their version and the bible does not clearly support any of those versions. We can only conclude that God didn't want us to be certain about timing. After all, there is nothing you would do differently if you knew the rapture would be pre- mid- or post, is there?

Some things we do know for certain:
* Jesus will return twice. The first time for his saints, the second time with his saints. The first time he does not touch the Earth, the second time he sets foot on the Mount of Olives and it splits, north/south.
* There will be some conversions on Earth after Jesus takes his saints up.
* Jesus was a Jew speaking to Jews. His words may or may not apply to christians. Be careful when applying his statements to current conditions.
* God did not/does not/will not need man's technology to perform His will.


I did find this post amusing. At first you disregard previous posts as unimportant and then list YOUR pet option which is NOT supported by the bible. Hmmmm.... that is rather odd.

You actually point out one of the problems with your own premise- the Church is split by your own words. The "2nd" return of Messiah will be to do battle with the earthly forces, yet there is still the church present. A second rapture? Nah.... I see no scriptural support for these.... only the desire to fit a pet idea that originated in the 19th century.

[StackerKen]

Saul;
this is not worth fighting over...But its is worth discussing politely.

7th and Spectrism and I, would like to see the scriptures that back up your statement concerning two comings of Christ.

[greenbear]

There isn't anything in this topic worth fighting about. Everybody, simply everybody, muddles things together to support their version and the bible does not clearly support any of those versions. We can only conclude that God didn't want us to be certain about timing. After all, there is nothing you would do differently if you knew the rapture would be pre- mid- or post, is there?

Some things we do know for certain:
* Jesus will return twice. The first time for his saints, the second time with his saints. The first time he does not touch the Earth, the second time he sets foot on the Mount of Olives and it splits, north/south.
* There will be some conversions on Earth after Jesus takes his saints up.
* Jesus was a Jew speaking to Jews. His words may or may not apply to christians. Be careful when applying his statements to current conditions.
* God did not/does not/will not need man's technology to perform His will.


I did find this post amusing. At first you disregard previous posts as unimportant and then list YOUR pet option which is NOT supported by the bible. Hmmmm.... that is rather odd.

You actually point out one of the problems with your own premise- the Church is split by your own words. The "2nd" return of Messiah will be to do battle with the earthly forces, yet there is still the church present. A second rapture? Nah.... I see no scriptural support for these.... only the desire to fit a pet idea that originated in the 19th century.


We're all like a roomful of 10 Jewish Rabbi's with 11 different opinions. LOL. Except for his sentence #2 and #4, I completely agree with Saul on the rest. Since nobody else is giving any scriptural backing to their assertions, then neither will I. We'll just have an opinion fest.

[StackerKen]

. Since nobody else is giving any scriptural backing to their assertions, then neither will I. We'll just have an opinion fest.


...


:)

I posted Matthew 24:35 to 44
and I don't really have a firm opinion on the rapture....yet

[greenbear]

Yes you did, Ken! But that verse doesn't have to do with the rapture. I am too disheartened ;) to post anything now, rally just too tired. Reading the thread again, I don't think you said anything that should have hurt my feeling, sorry if I over-reacted. :oo-->

[greenbear]

Thanks, Ken for saying that is a "little harsh". :'(

I've spent hundreds of hours on GIM and now on GSUS thinking, studying, and writing responses, giving arguments from scripture for what I believe. Often I spend hours writing responses to stock, rote arguments that a person can get off the internet, or type out in two minutes. I've learned a lot doing this, and it has been my choice to do this, but I feel disheartened right now because it doesn't make any difference, it just makes me a target for insults and character assassination.


To all on this thread- The truth is the truth, regardless of what any one of us wants to believe. The truth about something as complex as eschatology is not found by interpreting passages without comparing them with other scriptures. Comparing spiritual things with spiritual, the scriptures interpret themselves. Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Study is not listening to some teacher on the radio, debating on a forum, or just reading someone's books on prophecy, but being like the Bereans and with readiness of mind searching the scriptures to see if these things be so. We are told to rightly divide the word of truth. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Dispensationalism, pre, mid, or post trib understandings are not something that Christians should divide over. However, eschatology is a topic of great importance today.





You insult yourself green. I'm just pointing it out......your belief faults.
You are beleiving what an insane person said from the 1880's green. Have you ever researched where the fly away doctrine (AKA rapture) came from? Apparently not!
So much for your attempt to save your behind with this "studying" and "comparing" the scriptures to see the truth.


This is the second time you've referred to my behind on this thread. What's up with that?

[StackerKen]

Yes you did, Ken! But that verse doesn't have to do with the rapture. I am too disheartened ;) to post anything now, rally just too tired. Reading the thread again, I don't think you said anything that should have hurt my feeling, sorry if I over-reacted. :oo-->


Maybe we could talk some other time about what the verses I posted are about then. :)


37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

[greenbear]

I find 7th trumps's hate towards GB to be pathetic.

:)

The guy never supports his so-called "ideas" with scripture. ::)

Never delivered on his promises, which tells tales of his credibility :-\

never apologized for insults :boohoo

f-words, labeling people idiots, profanity :(

he is not a gentleman the way he talks to ladies

His contribution of hate and dirt became as annoying as his lectures :P on what "concordance" is ;D

Worst of all is his deep-rooted hate ( even towards Christians) and I dare say disrespect towards the Bible. :(




Thanks for speaking up for me, G2Rad. I'm glad you're here.

[Saul Mine]

Saul;
this is not worth fighting over...But its is worth discussing politely.

7th and Spectrism and I, would like to see the scriptures that back up your statement concerning two comings of Christ.


1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

[greenbear]

I happen to agree with the Trumpster on alot of this.

The concept of pre-tribulation rapture is a fairly recent addition to the interpretation of scripture.

Don't get upset over this. Let's search out the truth.




http://www.essentialchristianity.com/pages.asp?pageid=21918

The History of the Pre-trib Rapture

Introduction

As more and more people embrace the doctrines of the Reformation, many of these people fail to discard the errors that some of the Reformers were unable to discover in their limited lifetimes.

Many of the Covenant Calvinists embrace the Roman Catholic ideology of amillennialism. Furthermore, many within this tradition, and even within the premillennial family, assert that the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture did not develop until the 1800s. Such statements are terribly inaccurate.

I agree with Dr. Tim Lahaye, Dr. Richard Mayhue, and Dr. Wayne Brindle when they state: "The timing of the rapture is not a cardinal doctrine that should divide God's people, but those who interpret the Bible literally find many strong reasons to believe that the rapture will be pre-tribulational" (The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy, 289).

No matter whether one believes in a pre-trib rapture or not, there are historical statements that verify that people have indeed believed this teaching before the 1800s.

The Early Church Fathers Were Premillennial

It is clear that the early church immediately following the apostles held to a premillennial view of Christ's coming to earth. These theologians embraced two key truths concerning Christ's return to earth. The idea of an any moment return and a coming of Christ to rule as the political and spiritual king over the world were advocated by many of the earliest theologians. Here is a partial list of some of the theologians who embraced the doctrine of imminency and/or the future kingdom rule of Christ:

Papias (60-130)

Clement of Rome (90-100)

The Sherpherd of Hermas (96-150)

Ignatius of Antioch (98-117)

Barnabas (100)

The Didache (100-160)

Justin Martyr (110-165)

The Epistle of Barnabas (117-138)

Irenaeus (120-202)

Tertullian (145-220)

Hippolytus (185-236)

Cyprian (200-250)

Lactantius (260-330)

From these men we see the doctrine of Christ's soon return within a premillennial framework. The doctrine permeated the early church. Some of these men even had direct contact with the apostles.

Two Pretribulational References in the Early Church

1. The Shepherd of Hermas (95-150)

The Shepherd of Hermas was written between 96-150 AD. This document provides a statement that resembles a teaching of a pre-trib rapture doctrine. Though it is not exactly as found in modern day scholarly pretribulational writings, it still shows that an idea existed in some degree that God's people could escape the future tribulation that was to come on the whole earth. The text reads:

"You have escaped from the great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life serving the Lord blamelessly."

This is not a systematic teaching, nor does it answer all of the questions that one may have. But it does give a reference to the possibility that God's people can escape the great tribulation.

2. Victorinus ( Well known by 270 and died in 303 A.D.)

Victorinus wrote a commentary on the book of Revelation. In one place he made an interesting statement that reflects his idea that the church would be removed prior to the tribulation. Of course his ideas were not systematic, and some will argue that he contradicts himself in other places, which may very well be true. But even with such an admission it still serves us well to see that early in the church history someone taught in some sense that God's church could escape the tribulation period by being removed from the earth. His commentary notes in Revelation 6:14 indicate a pre-trib reference of some sort:

"And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up." For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. "And every mountain and the islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid persecution.

This reference gives light into a developing idea in the earliest periods of the church. There was an idea that God's people could be spared the terrible time of wrath thatGod would pour out on the earth by removing the saints. The saint's departure from the earth would occur so they would not undergo the terible wrath at the beginning of the judgments of God upon the sinful unbelieving world.




Summary:

Three Clear Summary Points from the Early Church Fathers' Teachings

* These early church fathers expected Christ to physically return to earth followed by a 1000 year kingdom rule on earth.
* By many of the writings we can see they believed in the possibility of an any moment return of Christ with some statements that resemble a pre-trib view point.
* Even though the early church was under heavy persecution these teachers believed there would still come a distinct time of great tribulation in the future.

Two Pretribulational Teachings in the Medieval Church

1. Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373)

Ephraem wrote an important sermon "On the Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World." As a prominent theologian and prolific writer of the Eastern Byzantine church, he advocated for a pretribulational rapture position for the church. Dr. Grant Jeffrey has noted that he had a profound love for the Scriptures. Below is a selected quote that concerns the escape of God's people from the horrible tribulation. He stated:

"We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled, and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of hte Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we ovvupied with wordly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world? Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it it the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see it with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the Day of the Lord!" Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. And so brothers, most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of this world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and invasions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor ofthe appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!

Notice that there is a clear teaching on the rapture of the saints before the terrible tribulation period. This theologian admonishes the people not to desire to see the Day of the Lord? Why? Because in his mind to see the day of the Lord means a person is not a believer. The believers will be snatched away and taken to the Lord before this time period begins. Look closely at what he says again:

"

See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the Day of the Lord!" Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins."

Scholars Dr. Ice and James Stitzinger provide some other insights as to what this theologian taught concerning the end times. In many respects this theologian taught many truths that are common among the Dispensational system of interpretation today. They note that Ephreum

"develops an elaborate biblical eschatology, including a distinction between the rapture and the second coming of Christ. It describes the imminent rapture, followed by a three-and-half-year-long Great Tribulation under the rule of Antichrist, followed by the coming of Christ, the defeat of the Antichrist, and the eternal state. His view includes a parenthesis between the fulfillment of Daniel's sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks (Daniel 9:24-27)."

Keep in mind that this reference is 1500 years before the time that many critics of the pre-trib view claim this doctrine developed. Many falsely advocate that the idea of a pre-trib rapture view developed in 1800s through J.N. Darby or through some sects and mystics. Such a view does not hold water, though it is popular in many circles.

For example, I once visited a Reformed Baptist Church in Greenville. It was a question and answer time session hosted by two pastors connected to the fellowship. Students from North Greenville College, Furman Univeristy, and other colleges, universities, and churches were present. A sincere man raised his hand and asked this question: "Why will no one teach on the book of Revelation and prophecy anymore? Can you give me a biblical answer to the issue of Bible prophecy." I thought it was a great question and I was interested to hear a biblically based answer from Scripture by the two pastors. Sadly, what was given in reply caused several of us in the room to have a serious concern for the pastors answering questions. Instead of providing an answer to the student's question the two pastors took the next ten minutes to simply attack the idea of a pre-trib rapture view. These two men did not take the time to provide for a biblical defense of their view. All they did was attack the pre-trib view as a modern invention that developed in the 1800s. After they attacked such a view, with little to no defense of their own view, I called the men on the carpet for a failure to study history and to defend their own view biblically. I asked them about several men who held this view before the 1800s, such as with Ephraem and others I'll discuss below. They had no reply to the information I gave to them.

2. Brother Dolcino (d. 1307)

One scholar has found a quote that relates to the teachings and disciples of Dolcino. Dolcino and his followers held to some form of rapture view whereby people were translated to heaven before the time of judgment on the Antichrist. The teaching is as follows:

"Again, [Dolcino believed and preached and taught] that within those three years Dolcino himself and his followers will preach the coming of the Antichrist. And that the Antichrist was coming into this world within the bounds of the said three and a half years; and after he had come, then he [Dolcino] and his followers would be transferred into Paradise, in which are Enoch and Elijah. And in this way they will be preserved unharmed from the persecution of Antichrist. And that then Enoch and Elijah themselves would descend on the earth for the purpose of preaching [against] Antichrist. Then they would be killed by him or by his servants, and thus Antichrist would reign for a long time. But when the Antichrist is dead, Dolcino himself, who then would be the holy pope, and his preserved followers, will descend on the earth, and will preach the right faith of Christ to all, and will convert those who will be living then to the true faith of Jesus Christ"


Teachers and Theologians after the Protestant Reformation Who Believed in a Pre-trib Rapture


At the time of the Protestant Reformation a major shift in how one interpreted the Bible caused the church to adjust in her views on the end times. Predominately under the Roman Catholic Church the Bible was interpreted allegorically. Scripture dealing with end times, prophetic texts, for the most part suffered from the hands of those who would not take the text literally. However, as the Reformation grew and as people began to return to a literal interpretation of the Bible the more people shifted to see that Christ was going to come back to earth to rule and reign. Many of the Puritans and Pilgrims, the 2nd generation of the Reformation movement, adopted the idea that not only was Christ going to reign on the earth but he would also translate his church saints before the awful time of his outpouring of wrath. Several of these scholars in some form or another held to a pre-tribulational rapture position.

1. Joseph Mede (1627): Clavis Apocalyptica

Some believe that he in this work made a distinction between the rapture of the saints in contrast to the second of Christ to earth.

2. Increase Mather (1639-1723)

Increase Mather was a pastor, scholar, and was the first President of Harvard College. Paul Boyer has noted that this Puritan scholar proved "that the saints would be caught up into the air beforehand, thereby escaping the final conflagration." This teaching from Mather was an early formulation of the rapture doctrine it seems.

3. Peter Jurieu (1687)

Peter Jurie in his book "Approaching Deliverance of the Church " (1687) taught that Christ would come in the air to rapture the saints and return to heaven before the battle of Armageddon.He spoke of a secret Rapture prior to His coming in glory and judgment at Armageddon.

4. John Gill (1748)

Dr. John Gill was one of the most brilliant scholars of his day. This Calvinist Baptist theologian wrote a full commentary set on the Bible in 1748. In this commentary he made a statement in his notes on 1 Thessalonians 4 that supported a time difference between the rapture of the saints and the coming of Christ to earth. He said:

....here Christ will stop and will be visible to all, and as easily discerned by all, good and bad, as the body of the sun at noon-day; as yet He will not descend on earth, because it is not fit to receive Him; but when that and its works are burnt up, and it is purged and purified by fire, and become a new earth, He'll descend upon it, and dwell with his saints in it: and this suggests another reason why He'll stay in the air, and His saints shall meet Him there, and whom He'll take up with Him into the third heaven, till the general conflagration and burning of the world is over, and to preserve them from it....



5. Morgan Edwards (1742-1744) the Founder of Brown University

Edwards was a prominent Baptist Leader in his day. When he came to America he was recommended to a pastoral role by the famous John Gill. He founded the first Baptist College in the colonies. This college later became known as Brown University, a well known Ivy League University of our times. Edwards taught that Christ would return for his church saints 3.5 years before he returned to establish the Kingdom of Christ on earth, the 1000 year reign of Christ. He specifically said:

"The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years. I say, somewhat more--, because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's 'appearing in the air' (1 Thess. 4:17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many 'mansions in the Father's house' (John 14:2)."

Summary: Orthodox Believers of History Have Believed in a Pretribulational View

As stated earlier in this link, the timing of the rapture debate should not be classed as an "A" level truth. The fact of Christ's coming is a larger issue. Then next in the scale would be if Christ will rule on the earth as King over all the earth. Those two issues are higher on the scale than the exact time of his rapture of the church age saints. To divide a fellowship or to break fellowship with a body over this one doctrine shows a sign of immaturity.

However, Christians must recognize that those who paint pre-tribulationists as fanatics, fringe movement Christians, or as heretics who have emabraced some strange and novel idea never heard of until the 1800's have done a disfavor to the entire body of Christ. Whatever position one holds to in this area, everyone should at the least admit good, sound, and orthodox believers have taught this view before the 1800's time period. And many today continue to see this as a valid position to hold from the Scriptures when properly interpreted in a plain, consistent, and normal manner with the words given their ordinary usage in historical context.

[greenbear]

There isn't anything in this topic worth fighting about. Everybody, simply everybody, muddles things together to support their version and the bible does not clearly support any of those versions. We can only conclude that God didn't want us to be certain about timing. After all, there is nothing you would do differently if you knew the rapture would be pre- mid- or post, is there?

Some things we do know for certain:
* Jesus will return twice. The first time for his saints, the second time with his saints. The first time he does not touch the Earth, the second time he sets foot on the Mount of Olives and it splits, north/south.
* There will be some conversions on Earth after Jesus takes his saints up.
* Jesus was a Jew speaking to Jews. His words may or may not apply to christians. Be careful when applying his statements to current conditions.
* God did not/does not/will not need man's technology to perform His will.


I did find this post amusing. At first you disregard previous posts as unimportant and then list YOUR pet option which is NOT supported by the bible. Hmmmm.... that is rather odd.

You actually point out one of the problems with your own premise- the Church is split by your own words. The "2nd" return of Messiah will be to do battle with the earthly forces, yet there is still the church present. A second rapture? Nah.... I see no scriptural support for these.... only the desire to fit a pet idea that originated in the 19th century.


Not a second rapture. There will be tribulation saints, those who will worship Christ as their Saviour and God.

Revelation 6:9-11 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

[Kali]

The tribulation period is God's wrath upon the earth and the body of Christ is not appointed to this time period.

The reason why no one knew of the pre-trib rapture all throughout history is because the unveiling of the scripture was not given until God saw necessary...until this knowledge was increased.

I believe it was in Daniel where it talks about this...to open up the books. Check out Daniel 12:9.

[Spectrism]

The tribulation period is God's wrath upon the earth and the body of Christ is not appointed to this time period.

The reason why no one knew of the pre-trib rapture all throughout history is because the unveiling of the scripture was not given until God saw necessary...until this knowledge was increased.

I believe it was in Daniel where it talks about this...to open up the books. Check out Daniel 12:9.


I see those here who claim to be impartial and living by the scripture in this "search for truth", all the while posting pet points of view with NO support from scripture. This is no place for emotional tirades or expressions of hurt feelings or playing word games. Enough of that nonsense!

The great tribulation is NOT God's wrath upon the earth any more than His cursing of Adam's new home was wrath upon the earth. In the latter, it was made a fit habitation for sinful man with the time limits and promise of redemption. In the former it is the slap in the face of a sleeping world for one last opportunity of redemption.

The great tribulation will have different parts. Just as in Moses' exodus, there is a forced choice: accept or reject God. There will be no middle ground. This is the separation of wheat from chaff... of sheep from goats.
Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

They could repent or blaspheme God. There should be no surprises at judgment day. This is one time when people will know what side they are on.


Quoting sources outside the bible are just opinions of people who were not necessarily inspired by the Spirit. In one case, there is a claim that we have new revelations per Daniel... and the other case is an appeal to early church "fathers". Both cannot be right.

All of the scriptures offered gave NO (zero, nada, zilch) support for a pre-trib rapture.

[7th trump]

The tribulation period is God's wrath upon the earth and the body of Christ is not appointed to this time period.

The reason why no one knew of the pre-trib rapture all throughout history is because the unveiling of the scripture was not given until God saw necessary...until this knowledge was increased.

I believe it was in Daniel where it talks about this...to open up the books. Check out Daniel 12:9.

The rapture theory came about by a mentally disturbed woman in the late 1880's. Margaret MacDonald http://www.angelfire.com/mi/Malkaynu/rapture.html
was her name and she supposedly went into a trance where she envisioned the whole horse bisket rapture theory.
Whats suprising about you people is that you will beleive anything that suits your beleif system to substitute the truth when you insist on throwing Gods word in the trash instead of listening to God.
Just what is said in Thessalonians?

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thess 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

I bet not one of you people would beleive or even consider going to a palm reader or a psychic to interpret the scripture, but here you are found red handed guilty of beleiving in this type of behavior that God himself hates.
Call yourself Christians????? I think not!
Why dont you with Concordences look up the word "air" to see what it really means to get the full meaning instead of taking the translation to English for what it is?
It means spiritual body....................not going up in the sky like you want it to beleive.
You people are so far removed for reality its amazing

[7th trump]

Here are some thoughts that draw me towards the pre-trib views:

Noah and his family was taken away before the rest of humanity was wiped out, meaning that he did not suffer from atrocities of the flood, before entering into the new beginning.

Lot was taken out of Sodom before the wrath of judgment began.

Yet, now when I think about it, Jews did witness judgment poured upon Egyptians before they were let go.
They were physically present during the plagues.

---------------------------

so far personally not convinced with "two returns" argument, as I recon meeting "his own" in the air, without His foot touching ground technically is not a return.

Spectr, thanks for pointing out to the "last trump". I was blind to it. This is a significant argument.

----------------

This was a though-provoking discussion so far.

makes me want to re-read the Bible in lights of this discussion.

I must say that sadly GB did not expound her views fully due to the bashing from Mr. you-know -who :) on one side and a general feeling that the alternative views are not very welcomed in the discussion.
It feels like points are fist-pounded on the table :)
( I may be wrong )


---------

Sometimes we inadvertently create a situation when it is not possible to say anything to the contrary without hurting feelings or loosing friendship.

As I said to some of you privately, I will repeat here openly, if you think I am wrong - please correct me from the Bible. Do not be afraid of hurting my feelings. :)


Love you all.

God bless!

What you need to do is stop thinking in the terms you do. You are screwing with yourself.
Where does it say anything in the Bible about Jesus's foot not touching the ground andn why are you injecting this into the equation?
Ever look up the word "AIR" in a Strong's Concordence to see that this engilsh word "air" was choosen by the translaters to describe a "spiritual body"?
Its this spiritual body that everyone, even the infant, is going to change into at the seventh trump where Jesus sets foot on earth. Its at this time that everything is reveled to everyone. Its at this time the world is judged either with reward for not worshipping the fake jesus or punishment for worshipping the fake jesus.
Do you think there are babies in Heaven? Or even old people?
How was is described of the two angels next to the tomb. They were in their 30's. How old was Jesus when he was nailed to the cross? 30 something wasnt He or do you even realise this?
But then again you admit you didnt even kow about the last trump (7th trump) either.
Once you get this in your head you will find that this whole rapture "fly away" doctrine is made up lie.
In fact you will even see that the scripture has nothing at all to do with flying up to a coud in the sky at all. The cloud is nothing more than the gathering of the Elelct as in a group in the spiritual body to meet Jesus.
But I guess you are one of those who will throw Gods word out the door and inject what ever fallicy you want to beleive in because some mentally disturbed woman from back in the late 1880's went into a trance and said so.

[7th trump]

Where does it say anything in the Bible about Jesus's foot not touching the ground


In the 1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

----------------------------------------



I read this:

Rev 19
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.


in view of this

John 14
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

---------------------------------------


Back to Matthew 24,
to me it sound like, those who were not ready for the festivities will have to go through the horrors of the tribs, decide for yourself:


But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, (G2Rad: Noah --> out, he is the guy in "luck", no more fun for the rest though)

And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. ( G2Rad: that is the verse that you guys pointed out )

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. so, sounds like you better hope to be taken away then to be appointed the portion with the hypocrites


-----------

Next, note that even Jesus does not know "the wedding day", completing analogy with the Jewish marriage :

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only

------------------------

Matthew 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

----------------------------

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Guys, could it be wedding trumpet, not plague trumpet?
Could it be that you are not distinguishing Christ-wedding-church theme, from Satan-wedding-the world theme? ( I don't mean to insult )


------------------------------------

Next, personally I was very influenced by the following passages, somebody once asked me to explain in an email:

Matthew 25

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


---------------------
( this is what is going on in my head, currently. Obviously my stand on this is not firm. I will have to go back to do a thorough study , like Spectr did)

This is the point I'm trying to make G2rad. You are injecting a lie in Thessalonians 4:17 and beleiving it.
I see nothing, and I mean nothing, in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 saying anything about a foot or anything saying Jesus didnt touch the ground. You are beleiving a lie!
What you are reading and dont realize it from beleiving a lie is that this passage is describing that the Elect will go into a spiritual body in order see Jesus.
"Air" when translated back into its original text means "spiritual body". To confirm this what was said about the twinkle of an eye?
It said that we would be changed in the twinkle of an eye.
You cannot see Jesus because hes in the spiritual body....... a different dimension if you will.
This is a long the lines of the lie that Eve ate an apple in Genesis when clearly Eve ate nothing at all, but partook of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
And you wonder why I get the way I am.
I no longer have patience for people who so blatantly beleive something thats clearly not there.
Dont follow the traditions of men.......follow the word of God. I suggest getting a Strongs Concordence and research what you are reading.

[7th trump]

This here


Rev 19
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.

You know who the Lamb is but who is the wife?
The wife are those who are not giving suckle. Cannot remember the passage but there is a WOOO..... to those who are giving suckle in the end days. How does a bride give suckle when the Lamb has been gone for 2010 years?
By being inpregnated by someone else. The suckle is a dead give away you havent been faithful to the Lamb.
How is that? By worshipping a fake lamb. Propping up his church revival and worshipping him (satan). The mark of the beast is 666. You will have that mark in your forehead meaning you beleive the fake christ is the real Christ and the mark on the hand is you doing the works of the fake by going along and building the fake church.
Come on you just read from an earlier post about the last trumpet. There are only seven trumpets and the last is Jesus coming to earth to rule with a rod of iron. The fake christ (666) comes at the 6th trumpet (6th seal, 6th vail and the 6th trumpet).
How do you think Jesus knows who not faithful and who is?

[7th trump]

One more thing I just recalled, very relevant IMHO:

2 Thessalonians 2

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



1. the delusion will be send to them (!). ( Not to us )
2. Holy Spirit will be removed so there is no restrainer to Satan's power and the AntiChrist could be revealed.

How then we could be left here on Earth, while our comorter, Holy Spirit is removed? ???

I remember, that the Holy Spirit once given to you, given for ever.

correct me if I am wrong


But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.


Sorry to say this but you are so removed from reality that i doubt you are redeemable. What I'm trying to say is that you are setting yourself up to be taken, and taken easily, from the field.
Where in all of this is proof that Jesus doesnt touch the ground or that you think you are going to fly away? Where?

[greenbear]

Spectrism,


The concept of pre-tribulation rapture is a fairly recent addition to the interpretation of scripture.


I see those here who claim to be impartial and living by the scripture in this "search for truth", all the while posting pet points of view with NO support from scripture. This is no place for emotional tirades or expressions of hurt feelings or playing word games. Enough of that nonsense!

Yes Sir!!!

You made an argument from history against the Pre-trib rapture. You said it was a new teaching that didn't come around until the 19th c. I gave you an answer from history that it existed even back to the earliest church fathers (post 47). Your argument is based historical revisionism that is a lie spread by opponents of pre-trib.

[StackerKen]

I don't think I like your attitude 7th....

Why don't you ask God to help you be a little more Kind and gentle.
And a little more respect wouldn't hurt either.

Just sayin. :)


1 Peter 3:15 (King James Version)

15But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:


1 Peter 3:15 (New International Version)

15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

[StackerKen]

7th; I don't think you should be telling folks that they are not redeemable or they they are not Christians.

You are in no position to just that. You don't know a persons heart.

Sure, judge what they are saying...and reject or accept it. ...

But don't judge their hearts.....thats not for you to do.

[7th trump]

I don't think I like your attitude 7th....

Why don't you ask God to help you be a little more Kind and gentle.
And a little more respect wouldn't hurt either.

Just sayin. :)


1 Peter 3:15 (King James Version)

15But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:


1 Peter 3:15 (New International Version)

15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,



I dont really care Ken.
Do you think Jesus coming to rule with a rod of iron is a little harsh to?
Are you going to disaprove of Jesus because hes gonna rule harshly and pass him off becasue you are stubborn and tiff necked?
I'm not here to pussy foot around with a bunch of weenies.
The problem is Ken it doesnt matter what tone I use. You people will not listen until a loud bang gets your attention and yet that isnt good enough.

[7th trump]

7th; I don't think you should be telling folks that they are not redeemable or they they are not Christians.

You are in no position to just that. You don't know a persons heart.

Sure, judge what they are saying...and reject or accept it. ...

But don't judge their hearts.....thats not for you to do.

That was my opinion of his stiff neckness...... not a judgment Ken.

[7th trump]

What I need to do is plant a seed and walk away.
If God doesnt want the seed to grow within you he wont let it..........................you are not ready for the truth.
If you make it ,you make it, if you dont......well I'm not worrying about it.
Its your choice to follow who you want. Beleive in all the lies and traditions of man all you want.

[greenbear]

Grad's
Spectr, thanks for pointing out to the "last trump". I was blind to it. This is a significant argument.

As the feast of Pentecost marked the beginning of the Church, the other feasts have prophetic significance, as well. I'm not very familiar with the study of the feasts but I do know there were trumpet blasts in more than one of the feasts. Many who study the prophetic significance of the Jewish feasts believe the Feast of Trumpets is associated with the rapture which is the latin word for harpazo, or the "catching up" in 1 Thess.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

[greenbear]

What I need to do is plant a seed and walk away.
If God doesnt want the seed to grow within you he wont let it..........................you are not ready for the truth.
If you make it ,you make it, if you dont......well I'm not worrying about it.
Its your choice to follow who you want. Beleive in all the lies and traditions of man all you want.


trump, I've learned from you some ideas, you did plant a couple of seeds, I say thank you.

You rightfully corrected me couple of times. I appreciate that too.

-----------

Still, the way you behave yourself, to me is not Christian-like.

f-words, insults, hate

for that I would have put you on ignore, if I knew how to do that.

Usually when people believe, personality changes dramatically, because Christ lives in them

Take Ken for example. You can feel warmth and love in all his posts.
He may not know all scholarly details, he may not have all understanding, but ... the way he behaves is an example to me.



I agree with you, Grad. Ken is an example to me, too. So are you. Knowledge is important but love is greater than all. Loving one another is the new commandment Jesus gave to us.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

1 John 2:7-9 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

2 John 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady , not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

[Spectrism]

Spectrism,


The concept of pre-tribulation rapture is a fairly recent addition to the interpretation of scripture.


I see those here who claim to be impartial and living by the scripture in this "search for truth", all the while posting pet points of view with NO support from scripture. This is no place for emotional tirades or expressions of hurt feelings or playing word games. Enough of that nonsense!

Yes Sir!!!

You made an argument from history against the Pre-trib rapture. You said it was a new teaching that didn't come around until the 19th c. I gave you an answer from history that it existed even back to the earliest church fathers (post 47). Your argument is based historical revisionism that is a lie spread by opponents of pre-trib.




OK Greenie. Shall we have a little lesson in critical reading? And critical thinking?

Here is one of your early references:

Two Pretribulational References in the Early Church

1. The Shepherd of Hermas (95-150)

The Shepherd of Hermas was written between 96-150 AD. This document provides a statement that resembles a teaching of a pre-trib rapture doctrine. Though it is not exactly as found in modern day scholarly pretribulational writings, it still shows that an idea existed in some degree that God's people could escape the future tribulation that was to come on the whole earth. The text reads:

"You have escaped from the great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life serving the Lord blamelessly."

This is not a systematic teaching, nor does it answer all of the questions that one may have. But it does give a reference to the possibility that God's people can escape the great tribulation.

First, note the bias of the writer. I italicized the word "scholarly" to point out his pride. In his "evidence" he admits it is NOT evidence! Notice the quote he uses. Its tense tells all. I underlined this part to show the conflict. If "you have escaped" the great tribulation already, then it cannot be coming in the future.

Next, the quoted reference makes it clear that he holds a works gospel. I emboldened the "and" to show his criteria for escape.

Finally, I emboldened the "can" which shows he is unsure about this formula. If sure he would say "will escape".


2. Victorinus ( Well known by 270 and died in 303 A.D.)

Victorinus wrote a commentary on the book of Revelation. In one place he made an interesting statement that reflects his idea that the church would be removed prior to the tribulation. Of course his ideas were not systematic, and some will argue that he contradicts himself in other places, which may very well be true. But even with such an admission it still serves us well (????) to see that early in the church history someone taught in some sense that God's church could escape the tribulation period by being removed from the earth. His commentary notes in Revelation 6:14 indicate a pre-trib reference of some sort:

"And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up." For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. "And every mountain and the islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid persecution.

This reference gives light into a developing idea in the earliest periods of the church. There was an idea that God's people could be spared the terrible time of wrath that God would pour out on the earth by removing the saints. The saint's departure from the earth would occur so they would not undergo the terible wrath at the beginning of the judgments of God upon the sinful unbelieving world.

This writer is so wrapped up in his own delusion that he can't see how silly his words are. He has another reference that he admits is unreliable... but useful anyway. He takes the reference to the sky being rolled up like a scroll and says that this would be at the beginning of God's wrath/ judgments. Is it?

Read Rev 6. This happens at the end of chapter 6, after the opening of the 6th seal. Up to that point, much has happened- death, pestilence, famine.
This is why I can see a mid- late tribulation rapture, but NOT a pre-trib.

The writer you offered has disproved your case.

[greenbear]

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (Jesus died, rose again, and ascended, even so will his body "Church" rise and ascend {"bring with him"}).

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (Those still alive at his coming will he bring with him, they will be forever with the Lord.)

Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (How is this to be a unique comfort to the Church if we go through the same tribulation period as the Jews and the rest of humanity alive at that time?)

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. (Here, Paul switches the topic to the tribulation period. The day of the Lord begins with the Great Tribulation, Time of Jacob's Trouble, day of wrath, the great and terrible day of the Lord, etc.)

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. (Notice Paul says "they" shall say peace and safety, then sudden destruction comes upon them, which they will not escape.)

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. (But "we", the Church will not be overtaken by the day described in Joel 2:2.)

Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. (The Imminency of Christ's return for his Church.)

For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath (edit: Paul refers back to the "day of the Lord" in vs 5:2, etc) :, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, (The tribulation is God's day of wrath. Job 21:30, Proverbs 11:4, Joe 2:2 , Zep 1:15, Ro 2:5)

Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

[7th trump]

This passage also confirms Rev of the woman giving suckle.......................woo to them worshipping satan.

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

[Spectrism]

These are great verses loaded with truth.




1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (Jesus died, rose again, and ascended, even so will his body "Church" rise and ascend {"bring with him"}).

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (Those still alive at his coming will he bring with him, they will be forever with the Lord.)


Clearly this tells us that there will be some alive at His return. Two categories of believers shown here: those still in the flesh and those departed from the flesh.



Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (How is this to be a unique comfort to the Church if we go through the same tribulation period as the Jews and the rest of humanity alive at that time?)

How is it that when the foot is in pain, the rest of the body has no pain? Can the hands be cut off and the arms be happy? We have had in the last century more martyrs for the christian faith than throughout all of history! And we as a priviledged and comfortable "church" have no feeling for the body which is being tortured? Instead, shall we make up nice stories to believe we will see no tribulation?

No. Our comfort is in the knowledge that He is returning for us and He will be our Comfort as is His Spirit already with us. While experiencing tribulation in this world, we are comforted knowing the end.

Is it biblical to expect tribulation?

Tribulation comes with receiving His word-
Mar 4:16 And likewise, these are the ones having been sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the Word, they immediately receive it with joy,
Mar 4:17 yet they have no root in themselves, but are temporary. Then trouble or persecution having occurred through the Word, immediately they are offended.


Joh 16:33 I have spoken these things to you that you may have peace in Me. You have distress in the world; but be encouraged, I have overcome the world.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?





But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. (Here, Paul switches the topic to the tribulation period. The day of the Lord begins with the Great Tribulation, Time of Jacob's Trouble, day of wrath, the great and terrible day of the Lord, etc.)

Understand that the wrath of God is NOT in this world.... it is His judgment and eternal separation from Him. The great tribulation is the last chance for any who would just repent.



For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. (Notice Paul says "they" shall say peace and safety, then sudden destruction comes upon them, which they will not escape.)

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. (But "we", the Church will not be overtaken by the day described in Joel 2:2.)

Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. (The Imminency of Christ's return for his Church.)

From this you should see the parable of the 10 virgins awaiting the groom. And you should see that the tribulation of this world is temporary. Fear not the one who can kill the body, but the One who judges the soul. Hardship and troubles in this world are part of the plan.



For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath (edit: Paul refers back to the "day of the Lord" in vs 5:2, etc) :, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, (The tribulation is God's day of wrath. Job 21:30, Proverbs 11:4, Joe 2:2 , Zep 1:15, Ro 2:5)


Exactly! We are saved by grace through faith in the Messiah and His blood has marked us as His own. We are appointed to be His co-heirs and not for the wrath of God.

[7th trump]

These are great verses loaded with truth.




1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (Jesus died, rose again, and ascended, even so will his body "Church" rise and ascend {"bring with him"}).

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (Those still alive at his coming will he bring with him, they will be forever with the Lord.)


Clearly this tells us that there will be some alive at His return. Two categories of believers shown here: those still in the flesh and those departed from the flesh.



Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (How is this to be a unique comfort to the Church if we go through the same tribulation period as the Jews and the rest of humanity alive at that time?)

How is it that when the foot is in pain, the rest of the body has no pain? Can the hands be cut off and the arms be happy? We have had in the last century more martyrs for the christian faith than throughout all of history! And we as a priviledged and comfortable "church" have no feeling for the body which is being tortured? Instead, shall we make up nice stories to believe we will see no tribulation?

No. Our comfort is in the knowledge that He is returning for us and He will be our Comfort as is His Spirit already with us. While experiencing tribulation in this world, we are comforted knowing the end.

Is it biblical to expect tribulation?

Tribulation comes with receiving His word-
Mar 4:16 And likewise, these are the ones having been sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the Word, they immediately receive it with joy,
Mar 4:17 yet they have no root in themselves, but are temporary. Then trouble or persecution having occurred through the Word, immediately they are offended.


Joh 16:33 I have spoken these things to you that you may have peace in Me. You have distress in the world; but be encouraged, I have overcome the world.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?





But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. (Here, Paul switches the topic to the tribulation period. The day of the Lord begins with the Great Tribulation, Time of Jacob's Trouble, day of wrath, the great and terrible day of the Lord, etc.)

Understand that the wrath of God is NOT in this world.... it is His judgment and eternal separation from Him. The great tribulation is the last chance for any who would just repent.



For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. (Notice Paul says "they" shall say peace and safety, then sudden destruction comes upon them, which they will not escape.)

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. (But "we", the Church will not be overtaken by the day described in Joel 2:2.)

Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. (The Imminency of Christ's return for his Church.)

From this you should see the parable of the 10 virgins awaiting the groom. And you should see that the tribulation of this world is temporary. Fear not the one who can kill the body, but the One who judges the soul. Hardship and troubles in this world are part of the plan.



For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath (edit: Paul refers back to the "day of the Lord" in vs 5:2, etc) :, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, (The tribulation is God's day of wrath. Job 21:30, Proverbs 11:4, Joe 2:2 , Zep 1:15, Ro 2:5)


Exactly! We are saved by grace through faith in the Messiah and His blood has marked us as His own. We are appointed to be His co-heirs and not for the wrath of God.




What good are they if you are giving suckle? What makes you think you attain salvation if caught worshipping satan?

[Spectrism]

What good are they if you are giving suckle? What makes you think you attain salvation if caught worshipping satan?


You lost me on that one. I have no idea what you are talking about.

[greenbear]

Spectrism,


The concept of pre-tribulation rapture is a fairly recent addition to the interpretation of scripture.


I see those here who claim to be impartial and living by the scripture in this "search for truth", all the while posting pet points of view with NO support from scripture. This is no place for emotional tirades or expressions of hurt feelings or playing word games. Enough of that nonsense!

Yes Sir!!!

You made an argument from history against the Pre-trib rapture. You said it was a new teaching that didn't come around until the 19th c. I gave you an answer from history that it existed even back to the earliest church fathers (post 47). Your argument is based historical revisionism that is a lie spread by opponents of pre-trib.




OK Greenie. Shall we have a little lesson in critical reading? And critical thinking?

Here is one of your early references:

Two Pretribulational References in the Early Church

1. The Shepherd of Hermas (95-150)

The Shepherd of Hermas was written between 96-150 AD. This document provides a statement that resembles a teaching of a pre-trib rapture doctrine. Though it is not exactly as found in modern day scholarly pretribulational writings, it still shows that an idea existed in some degree that God's people could escape the future tribulation that was to come on the whole earth. The text reads:

"You have escaped from the great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life serving the Lord blamelessly."

This is not a systematic teaching, nor does it answer all of the questions that one may have. But it does give a reference to the possibility that God's people can escape the great tribulation.

First, note the bias of the writer. I italicized the word "scholarly" to point out his pride. In his "evidence" he admits it is NOT evidence! Notice the quote he uses. Its tense tells all. I underlined this part to show the conflict. If "you have escaped" the great tribulation already, then it cannot be coming in the future.

Next, the quoted reference makes it clear that he holds a works gospel. I emboldened the "and" to show his criteria for escape.

Finally, I emboldened the "can" which shows he is unsure about this formula. If sure he would say "will escape".


2. Victorinus ( Well known by 270 and died in 303 A.D.)

Victorinus wrote a commentary on the book of Revelation. In one place he made an interesting statement that reflects his idea that the church would be removed prior to the tribulation. Of course his ideas were not systematic, and some will argue that he contradicts himself in other places, which may very well be true. But even with such an admission it still serves us well (????) to see that early in the church history someone taught in some sense that God's church could escape the tribulation period by being removed from the earth. His commentary notes in Revelation 6:14 indicate a pre-trib reference of some sort:

"And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up." For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. "And every mountain and the islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid persecution.

This reference gives light into a developing idea in the earliest periods of the church. There was an idea that God's people could be spared the terrible time of wrath that God would pour out on the earth by removing the saints. The saint's departure from the earth would occur so they would not undergo the terible wrath at the beginning of the judgments of God upon the sinful unbelieving world.

This writer is so wrapped up in his own delusion that he can't see how silly his words are. He has another reference that he admits is unreliable... but useful anyway. He takes the reference to the sky being rolled up like a scroll and says that this would be at the beginning of God's wrath/ judgments. Is it?

Read Rev 6. This happens at the end of chapter 6, after the opening of the 6th seal. Up to that point, much has happened- death, pestilence, famine.
This is why I can see a mid- late tribulation rapture, but NOT a pre-trib.

The writer you offered has disproved your case.



OK Greenie. Shall we have a little lesson in critical reading? And critical thinking?

Here is one of your early references:

Two Pretribulational References in the Early Church

1. The Shepherd of Hermas (95-150)

The Shepherd of Hermas was written between 96-150 AD. This document provides a statement that resembles a teaching of a pre-trib rapture doctrine. Though it is not exactly as found in modern day scholarly pretribulational writings, it still shows that an idea existed in some degree that God's people could escape the future tribulation that was to come on the whole earth. The text reads:

"You have escaped from the great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life serving the Lord blamelessly."

This is not a systematic teaching, nor does it answer all of the questions that one may have. But it does give a reference to the possibility that God's people can escape the great tribulation.

First, note the bias of the writer. I italicized the word "scholarly" to point out his pride. In his "evidence" he admits it is NOT evidence! Notice the quote he uses. Its tense tells all. I underlined this part to show the conflict. If "you have escaped" the great tribulation already, then it cannot be coming in the future.

Next, the quoted reference makes it clear that he holds a works gospel. I emboldened the "and" to show his criteria for escape.

Finally, I emboldened the "can" which shows he is unsure about this formula. If sure he would say "will escape".



Is Greenie your name of endearment for me like your name Trumpster is for 7th Trump?

Sure, we can have a little lesson in critical reading and critical thinking.

First of all, you made a false claim when you said that "The conceptof pre-tribulation rapture is a fairly recent addition to the interpretation of scripture. Your claim has been shown to be false.

Second, I am not defending the notion that the entire system of of Pre-trib thought that has developed to the point it is today was extant in the Church throughout time. As prophetic events unfold, our understanding of the prophetic scriptures becomes more exact. Today we can understand things that weren't understood a generation ago, and prophecy students of a generation ago, after WWII and the establishment of the state of Israel, understood more than the generation before them. There are still many things that we don't understand today. I believe many of these things will be revealed to us the closer we get to that time, and much more will be revealed to believers who live on earth during the Tribulation. Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Regarding your "critical" and "unbiased" comments about the author's analysis:


"You have escaped from the great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life serving the Lord blamelessly."

To try to discern the theme of the Shepard of Hermes passage above, let's read from 1 John regarding the antichrist spirit


1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shallcome , even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

There is the spirit of antichrist, and there will the the antichrist himself. There is the Beast system and there will be the Beast himself.

And Paul describes two different kinds of "tribulation".

One kind is general tribulation, caused by persecution by the wicked one.


1 Thessalonians 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

The other kind of tribulation Paul introduces 2 chapters later in 1 Thess 5:1-3. It is not a general tribulation, it is a specific event set at a specific time.


1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

This kind of tribulation will not come upon the Church. This is the same theme developed by the S of H.

Jesus also reveals this theme:

General tribulation that all believers experience:


Matthew 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Great Tribulation, the event set to occur at an appointed time:


Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,


The S of H is giving a similar exhortation to his "flock" as that given by John and Paul and Jesus.

I don't want to get into the S of H's soterology. If you take select portions of John's or Pauls epistles, for instance, without taking it's meaning according to the whole body of writing, you could say the same. We don't have the S of H's whole body of writing available to us, at least here. The passage clearly shows pre-trib concepts.


This writer is so wrapped up in his own delusion that he can't see how silly his words are. He has another reference that he admits is unreliable... but useful anyway. He takes the reference to the sky being rolled up like a scroll and says that this would be at the beginning of God's wrath/ judgments. Is it?

Read Rev 6. This happens at the end of chapter 6, after the opening of the 6th seal. Up to that point, much has happened- death, pestilence, famine.
This is why I can see a mid- late tribulation rapture, but NOT a pre-trib.

Again, the question is not did the earliest church fathers have a developed understanding of eschatology. The question the author is addressing is whether there were seeds of pre-trib thinking in the early Church. As I have said before on the board, I can understand how a person who has studied prophesy to some degree can hold to mid-trib, though there are reasons why I believe it is in error.

I see no 'pride" in the author's message or tone. IMHO, your arguments hold no water, Spectrism. You are employing mockery and belittlement instead of rational arguments. People who are unwilling to study especially prophetic passages of scripture with a ready (open, inquiring) mind using exact exegesis will not accept or understand dispensational, pre-trib concepts. That's my opinion and I'm sorry if it offends you. Rather than getting deep into Biblical exegesis to see if these things are so, the critics always use historical revision, arguments of factual and logical error, character assasination, appeals to human authority, etc. They attack, attack, but are never willing or able to answer the serious drawbacks in their own position. If they are brought up, they change the subject back to attacking their opponent. This is why I don't like to discuss these topics on a public forum, it is nearly futile.

You attacked the two earliest examples, but you never mentioned the rest of the Church father's in the article that held a pre-trib understanding of the coming of the Lord. Your argument seems to be that it wasn't as developed as it is today, so it doesn't count? In any event, your claim that the concept of pre-tribulation rapture is a fairly recent addition to the interpretation of scripture is false.

[greenbear]

Got to go. Later. :)

[illumin19]

Saul;
this is not worth fighting over...But its is worth discussing politely.

7th and Spectrism and I, would like to see the scriptures that back up your statement concerning two comings of Christ.


1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


Greetings SaulMine,

The quote from Jude of ENOCH's (alayhis salam) prophesy is mentioned multiple times by different prophets in the Bible. The list is below

Deuteronomy 33:2
Song of Solomon 5:10
Habakkuk 3:3
All fulfilled by Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alayhi wa salam).
10,000 and Paran are common themes in them. Paran being at or near Mecca and 10,000 being the number of followers Muhammad (sallallahu alayhi wa salam) had with him, hence his Saints.

Jesus Al-Masih (alayhis salam) will return once and complete his mission and pass away and be buried with the Messsenger of Allah, Seal of the Prophets Muhammad Al-Amin Mustafa (sallallahu alayhi wa salam).....Allah knows best.

The Lord is spoken of as being a PERSON at times in the bibile if he is a Prophet/Messenger of God.
To show this I'll point out passage Exodus 4:16 where God is "speaking" to Moses (alayhis salam)

"So he (Aaron alayhis salam) shall be your spokesman to the people. He himself shall be as a mouth for you, and you shall be to him as God.

When you include the history of events as well as all the scriptures of Allah (Subhanahu wa ta'ala) things get a little clearer......but we're still traveling through "muddy waters". :P

May Allah guide the Righteous true believers.

Peace.

[7th trump]

Saul;
this is not worth fighting over...But its is worth discussing politely.

7th and Spectrism and I, would like to see the scriptures that back up your statement concerning two comings of Christ.


1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


Greetings SaulMine,

The quote from Jude of ENOCH's (alayhis salam) prophesy is mentioned multiple times by different prophets in the Bible. The list is below

Deuteronomy 33:2
Song of Solomon 5:10
Habakkuk 3:3
All fulfilled by Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alayhi wa salam).
10,000 and Paran are common themes in them. Paran being at or near Mecca and 10,000 being the number of followers Muhammad (sallallahu alayhi wa salam) had with him, hence his Saints.

Jesus Al-Masih (alayhis salam) will return once and complete his mission and pass away and be buried with the Messsenger of Allah, Seal of the Prophets Muhammad Al-Amin Mustafa (sallallahu alayhi wa salam).....Allah knows best.

The Lord is spoken of as being a PERSON at times in the bibile if he is a Prophet/Messenger of God.
To show this I'll point out passage Exodus 4:16 where God is "speaking" to Moses (alayhis salam)

"So he (Aaron alayhis salam) shall be your spokesman to the people. He himself shall be as a mouth for you, and you shall be to him as God.

When you include the history of events as well as all the scriptures of Allah (Subhanahu wa ta'ala) things get a little clearer......but we're still traveling through "muddy waters". :P

May Allah guide the Righteous true believers.

Peace.

hahahahahaha.................allah is funny. allah gives you sand and a desert while the Christians get mik and honey, clear drinking water coming from the mountains, technilogical advancements, prime farm land and blessings after blessing.
How many times can a stubbed toe not hurt.
After a while you just gotta say "damn that smarts".

[Spectrism]

First of all, you made a false claim when you said that "The conceptof pre-tribulation rapture is a fairly recent addition to the interpretation of scripture. Your claim has been shown to be false.

Look who the accuser of the brethren is. As I recall, it was not long ago that one was crying the blues for finding resistance in proffering a false doctrine and now you accuse me of a false claim. The two examples I dissected were contradictory of your doctrine. The quotes were taken out of context and the writer who used them was disengenuous.

The musings of bible students have been happening for thousands of years. The disciples with Messiah in their very midst had such musings and questioned things far and wide. Such musings do NOT doctrine make.

The cult of the rapture IS a fairly new phenomena. Since you refuse to see it now, I will leave you to your idol.



Second, I am not defending the notion that the entire system of of Pre-trib thought that has developed to the point it is today was extant in the Church throughout time. As prophetic events unfold, our understanding of the prophetic scriptures becomes more exact. Today we can understand things that weren't understood a generation ago, and prophecy students of a generation ago, after WWII and the establishment of the state of Israel, understood more than the generation before them. There are still many things that we don't understand today. I believe many of these things will be revealed to us the closer we get to that time, and much more will be revealed to believers who live on earth during the Tribulation. Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

You certainly are defending that concept as if your life depended on it. Like an addiction... like a firmly seated deception that must be protected at all cost. I have been down this road before and am not surprised. Ho wmuch closer to the last day do you want to get before enough truth is revealed when you have an idol blocking its light?




Regarding your "critical" and "unbiased" comments about the author's analysis:

Did I ever say I was "unbiased"? Do you think you have met anyone unbiased? We ALL have our limited understandings and that equals bias. Let's just get that simple foundational truth out front. If you don't question EVERYTHING, you are not thinking critically.



"You have escaped from the great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life serving the Lord blamelessly."

To try to discern the theme of the Shepard of Hermes passage above, let's read from 1 John regarding the antichrist spirit

Discern shepherd of Hermes? How about discerning the Spirit of Truth?! Discernment is the spiritual gift exercised through the believer by the Spirit. I already addressed tha failings of this "shepherd's" quote and he did not stand up to the truth of the Spirit.




1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shallcome , even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

There is the spirit of antichrist, and there will the the antichrist himself. There is the Beast system and there will be the Beast himself.

And Paul describes two different kinds of "tribulation".

One kind is general tribulation, caused by persecution by the wicked one.


1 Thessalonians 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

The other kind of tribulation Paul introduces 2 chapters later in 1 Thess 5:1-3. It is not a general tribulation, it is a specific event set at a specific time.


1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

This kind of tribulation will not come upon the Church. This is the same theme developed by the S of H.

You see there are 2 kinds of tribulation and correctly. There is normal tribuilation- troubles, persecution. And there is the Great Tribulation unlike any before. Did you forget that many believers will be martyred in that Great Tribulation?

I think you err in assuming the "destruction" to befall "them" is the same thing as the Great Tribulation. They are different things entirely. The Church does not face this destruction because that destruction is the wrath of God against sinners. The Church has the hope of glory and wears the robes washed in the Lamb's blood.



The S of H is giving a similar exhortation to his "flock" as that given by John and Paul and Jesus.

Incorrect. SoH tied in a works gospel and would be at odds with Paul.



I don't want to get into the S of H's soterology. If you take select portions of John's or Pauls epistles, for instance, without taking it's meaning according to the whole body of writing, you could say the same. We don't have the S of H's whole body of writing available to us, at least here. The passage clearly shows pre-trib concepts.

You talk about this guy's "passages" as if they are equal with scripture? Where does that come from?




Again, the question is not did the earliest church fathers have a developed understanding of eschatology. The question the author is addressing is whether there were seeds of pre-trib thinking in the early Church. As I have said before on the board, I can understand how a person who has studied prophesy to some degree can hold to mid-trib, though there are reasons why I believe it is in error.

Now it is "seeds"??? We went from you accusing me of a false claim because there was a fully developed pre-trib rapture doctrine before the 19th century, to this puny SEEDS of rapture concept? Come on! In like manner you could say the bible has your "seeds" of pre-trib rapture because of the words "caught up".


I see no 'pride" in the author's message or tone. IMHO, your arguments hold no water, Spectrism.

You are free to see or not see what you choose.


You are employing mockery and belittlement instead of rational arguments.

I quoted you scripture. I pointed out flaws in the logic chains you offered. I provided flat and unemotional discussion. Have you?



People who are unwilling to study especially prophetic passages of scripture with a ready (open, inquiring) mind using exact exegesis will not accept or understand dispensational, pre-trib concepts.

You are going to make me start laughing. The same arguments for open-mind, honest inquiring, etc... are used of all the cults. Please show me the reference in the bible that tells us to open our minds.




That's my opinion and I'm sorry if it offends you.

I have worked with and for many kinds of people. Some were absolutely vile and vicious. Am I offended? Not even close. How can your opinions offend me?



Rather than getting deep into Biblical exegesis to see if these things are so, the critics always use historical revision, arguments of factual and logical error, character assasination, appeals to human authority, etc. They attack, attack, but are never willing or able to answer the serious drawbacks in their own position. If they are brought up, they change the subject back to attacking their opponent. This is why I don't like to discuss these topics on a public forum, it is nearly futile.

Who brought in extra-biblical sources to support their theory? Who feigned attack of person? (passive-aggressive) Who made accusations of false claims?




You attacked the two earliest examples, but you never mentioned the rest of the Church father's in the article that held a pre-trib understanding of the coming of the Lord. Your argument seems to be that it wasn't as developed as it is today, so it doesn't count? In any event, your claim that the concept of pre-tribulation rapture is a fairly recent addition to the interpretation of scripture is false.


Best foot forward. My time is limited. If your first 2 examples of "proof" are disasters, why waste more time? As it was, you still could not see what was so clearly laid out for you. Need we do more of that insanity?

[Jazkal]

Everyone comes to the table with their own beliefs, willing to change other peoples minds, but not usually their own. I have held the pre-trib belief in the past, but not any more.

'the rapture' = 'the first resurrection'

the 'rapture' (which doesn't appear anywhere in scripture, but I understand what you mean by the word) is actually described in detail, with timing details. Read Revelation chapter 20, it isn't that long. Look at all the things that have to happen before 'the rapture'/'first resurrection' occurs.

You can't have ALL the believers in Messiah 'raptured' away before everything happens, and then have verse 4 talking about new found babes in the faith?

"...the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God,
and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image,
nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands.
And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Take a look at the seals/trumpets/vial or bowl judgments; you'll find each of those items in the middle of the 'Great Tribulation'.

[Kali]

The tribulation period is God's wrath upon the earth and the body of Christ is not appointed to this time period.

The reason why no one knew of the pre-trib rapture all throughout history is because the unveiling of the scripture was not given until God saw necessary...until this knowledge was increased.

I believe it was in Daniel where it talks about this...to open up the books. Check out Daniel 12:9.


I see those here who claim to be impartial and living by the scripture in this "search for truth", all the while posting pet points of view with NO support from scripture. This is no place for emotional tirades or expressions of hurt feelings or playing word games. Enough of that nonsense!

The great tribulation is NOT God's wrath upon the earth...


So I give my view and you throw a fit. Most here aren't quoting scripture and quoting scripture doesn't usually prove anyone's case anyways because it can be interpreted differently or manipulated.

The trib period is Gods wrath upon the earth (nations).

It was talked about before the book of Revelation was even written. It is called the Time of Jacob's Trouble in the OT.

God even says in the NT that unless he shortened it, no flesh would survive.

This site below describes this Time of Jacob's trouble pretty well.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Jacobs-trouble.html

[Kali]

You can't have ALL the believers in Messiah 'raptured' away before everything happens, and then have verse 4 talking about new found babes in the faith?

Sure you can.

People can get saved without someone witnessing to them. There is the Bible and tons of other literature written on this...and non believers have heard of how to be saved in many countries by now.

When people are in hard times they often call out to God as well...He can still make his self known other ways besides by a witness.

[Kali]

There are many scriptures that seem to show that the Church will be taken before the 7 year trib...but they can also be viewed different ways.

I think people need to first figure out what this tribulation period is all about first....once you do that then the "rapture" scriptures make more sense.

[Kali]

The great tribulation is NOT God's wrath upon the earth


I went and found a scripture for you...This is what God calls it.

"For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”"

Revelation 6:17

[7th trump]

The tribulation period is God's wrath upon the earth and the body of Christ is not appointed to this time period.

The reason why no one knew of the pre-trib rapture all throughout history is because the unveiling of the scripture was not given until God saw necessary...until this knowledge was increased.

I believe it was in Daniel where it talks about this...to open up the books. Check out Daniel 12:9.


I see those here who claim to be impartial and living by the scripture in this "search for truth", all the while posting pet points of view with NO support from scripture. This is no place for emotional tirades or expressions of hurt feelings or playing word games. Enough of that nonsense!

The great tribulation is NOT God's wrath upon the earth...


So I give my view and you throw a fit. Most here aren't quoting scripture and quoting scripture doesn't usually prove anyone's case anyways because it can be interpreted differently or manipulated.

The trib period is Gods wrath upon the earth (nations).

It was talked about before the book of Revelation was even written. It is called the Time of Jacob's Trouble in the OT.

God even says in the NT that unless he shortened it, no flesh would survive.

This site below describes this Time of Jacob's trouble pretty well.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Jacobs-trouble.html


Its no Elect would survive. He shortens the 7 years to 3 and half years and Jesus shortens it to 5 months for the Elects sake.

[Spectrism]

The great tribulation is NOT God's wrath upon the earth


I went and found a scripture for you...This is what God calls it.

"For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”"

Revelation 6:17



The Great Tribulation is a time longer than ONE day. The "great DAY of His wrath" is JUDGMENT DAY.

The confusion of these two is why pre-tribbers insist that the Church cannot be on the earth during the Great Tribulation.... and they ignore the scriptures that say the Church WILL be here.

The Great Tribulation is the LAST hope of repentance for those who are still enemies of God. The horrible events unfolding are to bring to a boil the wickedness of mankind and the NEED for the Messiah.

When Pharoah was confronted by Moses, he had the choice to obey the prophet of YHWH. It took numerous signs & wonders to get the Israelites freed. Were those plagues the wrath of God?

Maybe. But they were more the great hand of separation.

When the harvest occurs, how many crops live? Today we have a comfort-driven culture that wants to save the flesh while God is working to kill it.

[greenbear]

You can't have ALL the believers in Messiah 'raptured' away before everything happens, and then have verse 4 talking about new found babes in the faith?

Sure you can.

People can get saved without someone witnessing to them. There is the Bible and tons of other literature written on this...and non believers have heard of how to be saved in many countries by now.

When people are in hard times they often call out to God as well...He can still make his self known other ways besides by a witness.



That's right. The book of Revelation will be available to people in the Tribulation. Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

And there are also three witnesses mentioned in Revelation during the Tribulation period: The 144,000, the Two witnesses, and the angel preaching the everlasting gospel.

God doesn't not save someone if they will be saved in any dispensation.

[greenbear]

Brother Spectrism,

I think we should just agree to disagree. This is not an issue to break fellowship over.

gb

[StackerKen]

Im just gonna throw this out there and then duck for cover.. :)


You know there are some that say that some of the stuff in The book of Revelation.
Already happened in 70ad

[StackerKen]

Brother Spectrism,

I think we should just agree to disagree. This is not an issue to break fellowship over.

gb




:)

another +K for sister GreenBear ;)

[greenbear]

You need your backing out of the door smile. again. :D Not for your last post. LOL

Edit: another K+ for you, too.

[StackerKen]

yeah Greenbear, I can't seem to find that right now...

How bout this instead..


http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h55/baytraderken/thhappy1.gif

[StackerKen]

:fish

Wonder if I will get a bite with that mention of 70 AD

[Kali]

The Great Tribulation is a time longer than ONE day. The "great DAY of His wrath" is JUDGMENT DAY.



The "day" in Rev 6:17 is not a day as we know it, it is a time frame, the trib time frame.

It is God's judgment, in the form of wrath....but it is not "judgment day".

[Kali]

:fish

Wonder if I will get a bite with that mention of 70 AD


Have you ever read the Book of Revelation in a Catholic Bible with footnotes?

Interesting to read.

[StackerKen]

:fish

Wonder if I will get a bite with that mention of 70 AD


Have you ever read the Book of Revelation in a Catholic Bible with footnotes?

Interesting to read.


No I haven't Kali

But I Do want to say, your posts are interesting to read :)

[illumin19]

:fish

Wonder if I will get a bite with that mention of 70 AD


Have you ever read the Book of Revelation in a Catholic Bible with footnotes?

Interesting to read.

Yep, went thru some of it in High School.... Interesting.

[greenbear]

yeah Greenbear, I can't seem to find that right now...

How bout this instead..


http://gold-silver.us/forum/Smileys/default/smiley-sport041.gif


I like it! It's very cute. We need more smiles.

p.s. I tried to copy the other little guy but I couldn't catch him. :D

[illumin19]

[quote=7th trump ]

Sigh....I live in the U.S.

BUT.....if you want to talk about the desert over there, it sounds like milk and honey when you get to sit back sell oil to the highest bidder, not be under the foot of usury be sovereign over your own land, and have everyone else build your country for you. Quite a blessing indeed. ;D

[7th trump]

[quote=7th trump ]

Sigh....I live in the U.S.

BUT.....if you want to talk about the desert over there, it sounds like milk and honey when you get to sit back sell oil to the highest bidder, not be under the foot of usury be sovereign over your own land, and have everyone else build your country for you. Quite a blessing indeed. ;D




The proof is in the pudding. Allah is nothing but an idol.

[7th trump]

Im just gonna throw this out there and then duck for cover.. :)


You know there are some that say that some of the stuff in The book of Revelation.
Already happened in 70ad

What do you think Ken?

[7th trump]

The Great Tribulation is a time longer than ONE day. The "great DAY of His wrath" is JUDGMENT DAY.



The "day" in Rev 6:17 is not a day as we know it, it is a time frame, the trib time frame.

It is God's judgment, in the form of wrath....but it is not "judgment day".







Its judgement alright. The day Jesus set foot on this earth at the 7th trump. Its also a day of reward for some just as much as it is a day of punishment for the wicked.
However if you speak that its not a judgement day you are right. The Great White Thrown Judgement isnt until after the thousand years of Jesus ruling with a rod of iron and the serpent is released for a short time afterwards. Then is it Judgement Day.
Its a day when the serpent and all those who follow the serpent are thrown into the pit and consumed from within to be turned to ashes...........................uncreated and wiped from memory.

[StackerKen]

Im just gonna throw this out there and then duck for cover.. :)


You know there are some that say that some of the stuff in The book of Revelation.
Already happened in 70ad

What do you think Ken?



Im not sure what to think 7th.
Im not real good at this Eschatology stuff.
I read others opinions...but I haven't formed a firm opinion of my own.
and you know, I may have confused The book of Revelation, with the book of Daniel.

So maybe I should just stay quiet and read more. :)

[7th trump]

Im just gonna throw this out there and then duck for cover.. :)


You know there are some that say that some of the stuff in The book of Revelation.
Already happened in 70ad

What do you think Ken?



Im not sure what to think 7th.
Im not real good at this Eschatology stuff.
I read others opinions...but I haven't formed a firm opinion of my own.
and you know, I may have confused The book of Revelation, with the book of Daniel.

So maybe I should just stay quiet and read more. :)

Ken,
Theres a lot in Daniel that relates to passages in Revelations that otherwise you would never understand Revelations. Same goes with Matthew. All the books from the old testiment to the new interrelate.
As a side note, the book of Ezekiel, half way through it it just suddenly and abrutely stops and goes into another subject. Its like two books in one. Anyway, the second half describes what the thousand year rule with a rod of iron is going to be like. Its like looking into the future. You get tommorrows news today.

[StackerKen]

Thanks 7th

btw I just started another thread http://gold-silver.us/forum/index.php?topic=2501.0

Hoping some of you might give me your thoughts.

[Spectrism]

How do we count the days? What means were given us to know the difference between day and night?


Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The sky was rolled back. The wind stopped. The sun blocked... if it is still in the sky. How many "days" will this be? Perhaps it is eternity. But there is no more "days" after that. If the presence of God is counted, there is no longer need of light from sun, moon or stars. The day of His wrath is come AFTER all the other things noted. When the true wrath of God is released, there will be no doubt about where you stand. During the Great Tribulation there will be great delusion. The grand finale will not be mistakeable.

If someone knows different, please show me the scripture to prove it.

[Kali]

Spectrism,

Asking for A scripture to prove your view wrong is downright silly.

To understand what is going on there you need to study, sometimes for many years, to take in the totality of many books and scriptures.

Hand picking a few here and there and trying to paint a picture doesn't work.

[Spectrism]

Spectrism,

Asking for A scripture to prove your view wrong is downright silly.

To understand what is going on there you need to study, sometimes for many years, to take in the totality of many books and scriptures.

Hand picking a few here and there and trying to paint a picture doesn't work.


Huh? I will tell you what is downright silly. Your response. I have studied for years and have looked at the scriptures. I have been watching the last 15 years for the signs that are falling into place now. I have been tracing the events like laser beams of various colors of the spectral array of a prism, watching them come to a focus on the very near future. That focal point is pure light.

Your clouds of confusion don't muddy my waters. Essentially what you said was you want to sound smart and well-studied and haven't got a decent answer.

But let me play along with you anyway.

What books and scriptures would you recommend from your vast studies to make clear what the "great day of God's wrath" means?

[greenbear]

Spectrism,

Asking for A scripture to prove your view wrong is downright silly.

To understand what is going on there you need to study, sometimes for many years, to take in the totality of many books and scriptures.

Hand picking a few here and there and trying to paint a picture doesn't work.


My Calculus teacher said something similar to me in college. I thought I could just cram for the midterm, like always. I ended up having to take it in an accelerated class during summer break. I studied hard every day that summer and got a solid C+!

[7th trump]

Spectrism,

Asking for A scripture to prove your view wrong is downright silly.

To understand what is going on there you need to study, sometimes for many years, to take in the totality of many books and scriptures.

Hand picking a few here and there and trying to paint a picture doesn't work.


Huh..............?
I suppose you are going to say you believe in the twisted and dostorted rapture "fly away" doctrine that is only one or two verses as an example of as you say: "to take in the totality of many books and scriptures" ?
You cannot have it both ways pal!

[Spectrism]

Spectrism,

Asking for A scripture to prove your view wrong is downright silly.

To understand what is going on there you need to study, sometimes for many years, to take in the totality of many books and scriptures.

Hand picking a few here and there and trying to paint a picture doesn't work.


My Calculus teacher said something similar to me in college. I thought I could just cram for the midterm, like always. I ended up having to take it in an accelerated class during summer break. I studied hard every day that summer and got a solid C+!


Your Calculus teacher talked about scriptural study?

I had college calculus in high school... and I worked hard for decent grades. My teacher always said: "If you can't do a problem, do some more." Lessons I learned went to my heart and usually I knew them better than my grades reflected. Most of those around me never really got the true lessons. Times have not changed much as far as that is concerned. Never once did my calculus teacher tell us to study other books and other subjects to learn calculus.

[greenbear]

It was a parable. :)

[Kali]

Spectrism,

Asking for A scripture to prove your view wrong is downright silly.

To understand what is going on there you need to study, sometimes for many years, to take in the totality of many books and scriptures.

Hand picking a few here and there and trying to paint a picture doesn't work.


Huh? I will tell you what is downright silly. Your response. I have studied for years and have looked at the scriptures. I have been watching the last 15 years for the signs that are falling into place now. I have been tracing the events like laser beams of various colors of the spectral array of a prism, watching them come to a focus on the very near future. That focal point is pure light.

Your clouds of confusion don't muddy my waters. Essentially what you said was you want to sound smart and well-studied and haven't got a decent answer.

But let me play along with you anyway.

What books and scriptures would you recommend from your vast studies to make clear what the "great day of God's wrath" means?


There has been two times that you asked for A scripture to prove my view on something.

The first time I actually gave you the scripture where you said the Trib is not God's wrath on the earth...I showed HE said it WAS...all in one scripture.

Now you ask for A scripture to show that this is more than a 1 day event.

The fact that you ask that I show you a scripture to back this up shows your lack of Bible knowledge or simply that you like to be so right that you will try to belittle someone to give the impression you are right.

We both agree that the signs are falling in place...no doubt about that.

Lets not let this get too carried away now. If you have the same Jesus I have, we are brothers.

We can have different views on the trib period...but if we fight over it and insult each other it will not only be fruitless it will show a lack, or maybe a complete lack, of the Spirit being present.

[Kali]

Never once did my calculus teacher tell us to study other books and other subjects to learn calculus.


The other books I mentioned are other books of the Bible besides Revelation.

Was that not clear?

[Jazkal]

Being asked to show the scriptures that backup your beliefs, is normal, and you should gladly show them.

1 Thessalonians 5:21
2 Timothy 4:3-4
1 John 4:1-5

When doctrinal disputes arise, if a person cannot or will not prove beliefs using clear and unambiguous scriptures, that fact should raise a red flag.

[Kali]

Asking someone to show A scripture to prove their point is nonsense.

Asking someone to show scriptures on how they formed their view is fine.

This is a complicated subject...you don't throw a point out there then ask someone to post A scripture if they disagree.

(I did the first time though and it was then twisted around)

To understand the trib period and the "days" mentioned not only there but in other prophetic end time scriptures you need to read many scriptures found in many books (Bible Books).

[Jazkal]

To get an understanding of the time line of 'The Last Days', the following scriptures lay it all out:

Matt 24
Mark 13
Luke 21
Lev 26
Deut 28
Rev 6, 11, 17, 18, 21

[StackerKen]

throwing this out there....

Proverbs 12

1 Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
but he who hates correction is stupid.




Proverbs 12:1 (King James Version)

Proverbs 12

1Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is brutish.

[Spectrism]

It was a parable. :)


And your parable was met with a true story.

[greenbear]

You apparently missed the point of the analogy. The study of Eschatology can be likened to the study of Calculus. It is one of the most advanced scriptural subjects one can study. Just as a child can understand that 2 + 2 =4, a child can also understand that Jesus died for their sins, and rose from the dead. But to understand eschatology, or calculus, one must spend considerable time studying the fundamental theories which underlie them. Just as calculus cannot be explained in a single sentence, neither can eschatology. It is extremely complicated. In fact, eschatology is more complicated than calculus, it deals with things like double reference, double fulfillment, context, or concepts such as "if you will have it, then X, but if you will not, then Y." None of this is simple. My analogy was quite apropos.

[StackerKen]

You apparently missed the point of the analogy. The study of Eschatology can be likened to the study of Calculus. It is one of the most advanced scriptural subjects one can study. Just as a child can understand that 2 + 2 =4, a child can also understand that Jesus died for their sins, and rose from the dead. But to understand eschatology, or calculus, one must spend considerable time studying the fundamental theories which underlie them. Just as calculus cannot be explained in a single sentence, neither can eschatology. It is extremely complicated. In fact, eschatology is more complicated than calculus, it deals with things like double reference, double fulfillment, context, or concepts such as "if you will have it, then X, but if you will not, then Y." None of this is simple. My analogy was quite apropos.



You explained that quite nicely GB. :)
You made it simple enough for me to understand
Eschatology is way over mind head.

I think I should stick to the simple stuff.
And have faith that God will deliver me anyhow.


http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h55/baytraderken/thhappy1.gif

[Spectrism]

You apparently missed the point of the analogy. The study of Eschatology can be likened to the study of Calculus. It is one of the most advanced scriptural subjects one can study. Just as a child can understand that 2 + 2 =4, a child can also understand that Jesus died for their sins, and rose from the dead. But to understand eschatology, or calculus, one must spend considerable time studying the fundamental theories which underlie them. Just as calculus cannot be explained in a single sentence, neither can eschatology. It is extremely complicated. In fact, eschatology is more complicated than calculus, it deals with things like double reference, double fulfillment, context, or concepts such as "if you will have it, then X, but if you will not, then Y." None of this is simple. My analogy was quite apropos.


I didn't miss any point.... but you sure did. I wrapped an analogy in my story which muted the analogy shot at me. If you wear earplugs, it sure must be hard to tell when the sound is turned off. You wanted to spar from the beginning of this thread with your concept of pre-tribulational rapture. You pulled an emotional tantrum demanding respect for your views regardless of truth. We investigated scripture and your best response was to try tripping me up with technicalities of WHEN the pre-trib rapture concept became a doctrine. Your extra-biblical source failed miserably and so again I am the bad guy because I did not see your allusions to my ignorance and lack of preparation within your puny "analogy". You derailed this thread and its intents by your love for the rapture cult. Sorry, but your lack of decent scriptural adherence in presenting an argument and spurious attacks have brought me back to shaking the dust off my feet.

[greenbear]

You apparently missed the point of the analogy. The study of Eschatology can be likened to the study of Calculus. It is one of the most advanced scriptural subjects one can study. Just as a child can understand that 2 + 2 =4, a child can also understand that Jesus died for their sins, and rose from the dead. But to understand eschatology, or calculus, one must spend considerable time studying the fundamental theories which underlie them. Just as calculus cannot be explained in a single sentence, neither can eschatology. It is extremely complicated. In fact, eschatology is more complicated than calculus, it deals with things like double reference, double fulfillment, context, or concepts such as "if you will have it, then X, but if you will not, then Y." None of this is simple. My analogy was quite apropos.



You explained that quite nicely GB. :)
You made it simple enough for me to understand
Eschatology is way over mind head.

I think I should stick to the simple stuff.
And have faith that God will deliver me anyhow.


http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h55/baytraderken/thhappy1.gif


That is just not true, Ken. I got sucked into just about every false teaching out there. Then I asked the Lord to show me what he says and means in his message to us. He answered my prayer. He didn't give us the Bible because he doesn't want us to understand it, or so we can't, HE gives us understanding. It's a matter of approaching his word with a ready mind, expectant that he will reveal it to us. We have to be a clean slate as best we can.

[greenbear]

You apparently missed the point of the analogy. The study of Eschatology can be likened to the study of Calculus. It is one of the most advanced scriptural subjects one can study. Just as a child can understand that 2 + 2 =4, a child can also understand that Jesus died for their sins, and rose from the dead. But to understand eschatology, or calculus, one must spend considerable time studying the fundamental theories which underlie them. Just as calculus cannot be explained in a single sentence, neither can eschatology. It is extremely complicated. In fact, eschatology is more complicated than calculus, it deals with things like double reference, double fulfillment, context, or concepts such as "if you will have it, then X, but if you will not, then Y." None of this is simple. My analogy was quite apropos.


I didn't miss any point.... but you sure did. I wrapped an analogy in my story which muted the analogy shot at me. If you wear earplugs, it sure must be hard to tell when the sound is turned off. You wanted to spar from the beginning of this thread with your concept of pre-tribulational rapture. You pulled an emotional tantrum demanding respect for your views regardless of truth. We investigated scripture and your best response was to try tripping me up with technicalities of WHEN the pre-trib rapture concept became a doctrine. Your extra-biblical source failed miserably and so again I am the bad guy because I did not see your allusions to my ignorance and lack of preparation within your puny "analogy". You derailed this thread and its intents by your love for the rapture cult. Sorry, but your lack of decent scriptural adherence in presenting an argument and spurious attacks have brought me back to shaking the dust off my feet.


Brother, there are forks in the road on which we travel. Sometimes, we take the wrong path and forge father into the darkness of the jungle. After a while, we lose track of where we are, we lose all sense of direction. None of us are immune. When we find ourselves in this morass, we must call out to the Lord to bring us back to the fork in the road where we took the wrong turn.

You must know that your spirit is not right here. I am not angry with you. I have only love for you. We can surely disagree on pre-trib eschatology without you feeling that I am your enemy. Do we not have the same Lord? But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

[greenbear]

You apparently missed the point of the analogy. The study of Eschatology can be likened to the study of Calculus. It is one of the most advanced scriptural subjects one can study. Just as a child can understand that 2 + 2 =4, a child can also understand that Jesus died for their sins, and rose from the dead. But to understand eschatology, or calculus, one must spend considerable time studying the fundamental theories which underlie them. Just as calculus cannot be explained in a single sentence, neither can eschatology. It is extremely complicated. In fact, eschatology is more complicated than calculus, it deals with things like double reference, double fulfillment, context, or concepts such as "if you will have it, then X, but if you will not, then Y." None of this is simple. My analogy was quite apropos.


I didn't miss any point.... but you sure did. I wrapped an analogy in my story which muted the analogy shot at me. If you wear earplugs, it sure must be hard to tell when the sound is turned off. You wanted to spar from the beginning of this thread with your concept of pre-tribulational rapture. You pulled an emotional tantrum demanding respect for your views regardless of truth. We investigated scripture and your best response was to try tripping me up with technicalities of WHEN the pre-trib rapture concept became a doctrine. Your extra-biblical source failed miserably and so again I am the bad guy because I did not see your allusions to my ignorance and lack of preparation within your puny "analogy". You derailed this thread and its intents by your love for the rapture cult. Sorry, but your lack of decent scriptural adherence in presenting an argument and spurious attacks have brought me back to shaking the dust off my feet.



You wanted to spar from the beginning of this thread with your concept of pre-tribulational rapture. You pulled an emotional tantrum demanding respect for your views regardless of truth.

No one is perfect, Spectr. I was hurt when you made the cult comment because I had respected you and I saw where you were going with it.


Your extra-biblical source failed miserably and so again I am the bad guy because I did not see your allusions to my ignorance and lack of preparation within your puny "analogy".

No one has said that you are the bad guy, some of us we just disagree with you. You are the one who has made this into an issue of division.

My "extra-biblical" historical source was an answer to your spurious historical assertion that pre-tribulational concepts, i.e. the Church being evacuated before the judgment of God on the earth, was a new idea from some demon-infested girl in the 1800's. That was an argument appealing to historical evidence, so I gave you an answer from history. I showed proof that your contention was historically inaccurate. Your answer was meaningless mockery, then you accuse me of using non-biblical sources! You didn't refute the evidence except perhaps in your own mind, for some reason you are unable to think clearly about this topic. Your keep insisting that I am full of pride on this thread but believing that one has the correct understanding of Biblical eschatology is not pride, it is conviction borne of study of the scriptures. I'm sorry to say that the pride and anger is on your part, brother. I implore you to seek the Lord, not about eschatology, but about the condition of your heart in this matter.

[Kali]

As someone once told me...

If you don't understand the pre-trib rapture, don't worry, I will explain it to you on the way up.

;D

[7th trump]

As someone once told me...

If you don't understand the pre-trib rapture, don't worry, I will explain it to you on the way up.

;D



Think you are going somewhere Kali?
To the bad side of the gulf maybe for beleiving a false Christ (satan).
Better reread that again because theres nothing in the Bible that says you are flying away. Rapture isnt even a word in the Bible......period. You are beleiving a lie, a tradition of men as you are warned not to follow.
How is the whole world to worship the antichrist if everyone flies away up, up and away?
Gods Elect are going nowhere, but witness in front of the world who this fake christ really is. What makes you think you are gonna flr away?
Why do you beleive what a mentally disturbed woman said after going into a trance over a hundred years ago?
Sounds like you visit psycics and palm readers to interpret the Bible for you.
You are not going anywhere Kali.
In fact God says: "I'm against those who teach my people to fly to save their souls".

[Spectrism]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nS215lBbVZA&feature=player_embedded

[dysgenic]

I'm interested in seeing some sciptural references from Greenbear. As of right now, from my perspective the better arguments have come from Spec and 7th.

[greenbear]

The widely circulated story that a girl named Margaret MacDonald first came up with the pre-trib view and passed it on to John Darby is nothing but a smear campaign that has been more than adequately refuted. Years ago, one post-trib critic offered a reward to anyone who could prove that the pre-trib rapture position existed before Ms. MacDonald. He very quickly had to cough up the money to pay on his losing bet. Since that time, dozens of examples have been found, and the surface history has hardly been scratched.


http://www.raptureme.com/rr-margaret-mcdonald.html

After having examined the claims of those critical of the rapture, I have found holes large enough to drive a dump truck through in their so-called evidence:

The first problem with the MacDonald origin is the fact that she wasn't the one who widely taught the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture. A man named John Darby is believed by many to have sparked modern interest in the rapture. The question here is how Darby came to hear of MacDonald's vision. Proponents like Dave MacPherson and John L. Bray have never been able to prove that Darby had ever heard of MacDonald or her vision.

Darby himself claims the revelation of the rapture came to him when he realized the distinction between Israel and the church.

Darby reported that he discovered the rapture teaching in 1827, three years before MacDonald had her vision.

When one closely examines MacDonald's vision, it becomes clear that her vision could not have been a pretribulational one. MacDonald looked for a "fiery trial which is to try us," and she foresaw the Church being purged by the Antichrist. Any pretribulation rapturist can tell you the Church will be removed before the advent of the Antichrist. John Bray, an anti-rapturist, said himself that Margaret MacDonald was teaching a single coming of our Lord Jesus. This contradicts current rapture doctrine, which teaches a two-staged event—first, Christ coming for His Church and second, seven years later His return to earth. With so many contradictions between MacDonald's vision and today's pretribulationism, it is difficult to see any linkage.

By far the biggest mistake post-tribulationists have made attacking the rapture is claiming that the pretribulation rapture wasn’t taught before 1830. In fact, John L. Bray, a Southern Baptist evangelist, offered $500 to anyone who could prove that someone taught the rapture doctrine prior to MacDonald's 1830 vision. Bray was first proven wrong when he wrote in a newsletter, "Then my own research indicated that it was Emmanuel Lacunza, a Jesuit Catholic priest, who in the 1812 book The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, first taught this theory." Bray stuck his neck out again when he made another $500 offer to anyone who could provide a documented statement earlier than Lacunza's 1812 writings. Apparently he had to cough up the 500 bucks. I quote him again: "I offered $500 to anyone who would give a documented statement earlier than Lacunza's time which taught a two-stage coming of Christ separated by a stated period of time.” No one claimed that offer until someone found writings that forced Bray to write the following: “Now I have the Photostat copies of a book published in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in 1788 but written in 1742-1744 in England, which taught the pretribulation rapture before Lacunza." Lately, a number of other sources have been located that teach the pretribulation rapture--some written as early as the second century. Where does this leave Margaret MacDonald?

In my life here on earth, I've made a number of observations that I regard as undeniable truths. One of these is the fact that the truth will suffer attacks with no one defending it, while a lie will be allowed to proliferate with no one challenging it. This seems to have taken place in the case of the rapture. For years on end, anti-rapturists have been allowed to attack pretribulationism freely. One assailant called the rapture the mark of the beast while another remarked that when Jesus returns at the battle of Armageddon, He will fight against those who believe in the rapture. The people who should have been contending for the rapture, for the most part, just said, "That may be your opinion."

Finally, it appears that those who hold to a pretribulation rapture are beginning to counter the ridiculous charges. A number of books have been published that cite several pre-MacDonald sources describing a raptured Church. Author Grant Jeffrey deserves a good deal of praise for his work in discovering many of these sources.

As far as being able to find the pretribulation rapture in the Bible, we don’t need to be rocket scientists to discover it. For me, locating the rapture doctrine in the Bible was as simple as finding evidence that Jesus Christ is Messiah.

The evidence that Christians believed in the rapture long before MacDonald does not seem to have sunk into the minds of those opposed to the rapture. They still teach that she is the founder of pretribulationism. When someone is presented with overwhelming proof that he or she is wrong and refuses to accept that truth, then we certainly may conclude that he or she is in spiritual darkness.

I would like to conclude by saying that no evidence whatsoever points to MacDonald as the source of pretribulationism. Every major prophetic author alive today claims the Word of God as the foundation for belief in the rapture. Both Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul made statements that clearly establish the rapture doctrine. Jesus said, in Matthew 25:13, "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." Paul affirmed in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

[greenbear]

Those who argue that the word "rapture" doesn't appear in the Bible are playing word games. Their logic fails because there are a number of words that don't appear in the Bible. Like the word "Bible", for instance. Or Trinity. The word "rapture" is the English word for the Latin word "rapturo". The word "rapturo is the Latin word for "har-pad'-zo" which the NT translators have rendered as "caught up". If you read a Greek Bible you will see the word "harpadzo"If you read a Latin Bible, you will see the word "rapture". If you read an English Bible you will see "caught up". Hopefully, we can lay this spurious argument to rest once and for all.

The rapture, or catching up of the Church is described as a mystery first revealed to Paul. There are hints of it in the OT and the Gospels, but it is not revealed until Paul.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

[dysgenic]

Doesn't number 1 indicate the catching up will occur after the 7th trump? Doesn't it kind of support what Spec and 7th Trump were saying?



Those who argue that the word "rapture" doesn't appear in the Bible are playing word games. Their logic fails because there are a number of words that don't appear in the Bible. Like the word "Bible", for instance. Or Trinity. The word "rapture" is the English word for the Latin word "rapturo". The word "rapturo is the Latin word for "har-pad'-zo" which the NT translators have rendered as "caught up". If you read a Greek Bible you will see the word "harpadzo"If you read a Latin Bible, you will see the word "rapture". If you read an English Bible you will see "caught up". Hopefully, we can lay this spurious argument to rest once and for all.

The rapture, or catching up of the Church is described as a mystery first revealed to Paul. There are hints of it in the OT and the Gospels, but it is not revealed until Paul.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

[greenbear]

Post and mid-tribs like to point out that nowhere in the Bible does it directly say that the Church will be raptured before the Tribulation. What they fail to mention is that nowhere in the Bible does it directly say that the Church will go through the Tribulation.

It is similar to the first coming of Christ in the OT. Nowhere in the OT did it say directly say that Christ was coming to earth twice. The Jews didn't understand that, they were looking for Messiah to establish his Millennial Kingdom, and they failed to understand the prophesies that pointed to Messiah as a suffering servant who would be cut off for the sins of his people. The only way the truth of the two comings of Christ to earth could be discerned was by exactingly comparing scripture with scripture and to be willing to admit when there are some things that are not yet understood, rather than to force a preconceived meaning to the verses or passages.

The "If you will receive it then X, but if you will not receive it, then Y" concept is at play in Israel's acceptance or rejection of Christ at that time. Jesus told the Jews that if they would receive it, then John the Baptist was to them Elijah who was to come (Matt 11:14, Mal 4:5). If the Jews had been willing to receive Jesus as the Messiah, then John would have filled the role of Elijah. Since God knows the end from the beginning, he already knew the Jews would reject their Messiah at his first coming. It had to be the case because Messiah came to die for the sins of the world.

Because God foreknew that the Jews would reject their Messiah, and in his providence he used their rejection as the means for fulfilling Messiah's role as Kinsman Redeemer, does not relieve the Jews of their responsibility.

I will present refutations to some of the most common arguments against the pre-trib view. They will convince no one who has already made up their mind. They may or may not convince those who are or those who claim to be undecided. Those who do not recognise the distinctions between Israel and the Church will probably reject the arguments. That is the perogative of every individual.

It is futile for a person who has never studied Calculus, and never intends to study Calculus, to demand that a Calculus teacher explain the solution to a Calculus problem without being willing to study the dicipline of Calculus. It does no good to argue that the solution is wrong because the theories of Geometry render a different solution. As in Calculus, a would be student of the Pre-trib position has to study the Bible in a literal, exacting, dispensational, pre-millennial, pre-tribulational manner in order to find out if that approach indeed allows literal interpretation of all Old and New Testament passages on the great tribulation.

I believe that if a Christian will study the Bible with an with an open mind to a literal, dispensational view they will find the preponderance of the evidence is in support of a pre-tribulational position.

I have to go now but I will post more later tonight.

[greenbear]

Doesn't number 1 indicate the catching up will occur after the 7th trump? Doesn't it kind of support what Spec and 7th Trump were saying?



Those who argue that the word "rapture" doesn't appear in the Bible are playing word games. Their logic fails because there are a number of words that don't appear in the Bible. Like the word "Bible", for instance. Or Trinity. The word "rapture" is the English word for the Latin word "rapturo". The word "rapturo is the Latin word for "har-pad'-zo" which the NT translators have rendered as "caught up". If you read a Greek Bible you will see the word "harpadzo"If you read a Latin Bible, you will see the word "rapture". If you read an English Bible you will see "caught up". Hopefully, we can lay this spurious argument to rest once and for all.

The rapture, or catching up of the Church is described as a mystery first revealed to Paul. There are hints of it in the OT and the Gospels, but it is not revealed until Paul.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.




Dys, I don't have time to write in my own words right now, so I'll post this.



http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pre-trib-rapture.html

The Last Trumpet Argument

Because Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:52 and 1 Thes 4:16, said believers would be raptured at the sounding of a trump, many folks have tried to make it appear that the rapture trumps are the same trumpets found in Revelation 11:15-18, Joel 2:1, and Mat 24:31--which all occur during the tribulation.

When you have trumpets commonly used throughout the Bible, I think it's foolish to just assume any two of the 62 trumps or trumpets are prophetically related. To be able to make the claim that the tribulation trumpet soundings are the same as the rapture trumps, you would need a direct statement saying this is the case.

In the movies Ben-Hur and The Wizard of Oz, I recall hearing the sounding of trumpets. Are both these trumpets somehow prophetically related?

If your friend John said he went to his favorite restaurant last night, and another friend Larry said he also went to his favorite restaurant last night, is it logical for you to assume they both went to the same restaurant? Obviously not, because even though John and Larry went to their favorite restaurants, they may have had two different eating establishments in mind. The same logic should apply with the word trumpet.

With such a blind devotion to this one similarity, I have to wonder if these last-tumpeters are able to distinguish the difference between Tylenol and Exlax. They're both over-the-counter drugs, they come in pill form, and they can also be found in a medicine cabinet. Of course, one will make your headache disappear and the other will make your toilet paper disappear.

Pre-wrath proponents say that the Seventh Trumpet blown in Rev 11:15-18 is the same last trump Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 15:52. However, they fail to take into account the fact that John wrote Revelation 40 years after Paul wrote his first epistle to the Corinthians. How could Paul refer to something that was not yet revealed?

Post-tribbers use a trumpet sounding in Joel 2:1 as evidence for a post-trib rapture on the Day of the Lord. I have three problems with Joel 2:1:

1. Joel clearly says that the purpose for blowing the trumpet is to "sound an alarm."

2. According to 1 Cor 15:52, the rapture is something that occurs in the twinkling of an eye. Joel 2:1 says the Day of the Lord is nigh at hand. In order for Joel's trumpet to be the same one in 1 Cor. there would have to be a time delay between the sounding of the trumpet and the rapture of the Church.

3. The fact that there is another trumpet being sounded in Joel 2:15 further clouds the possibility that these trumpets could have anything to do with the rapture.

When Paul was writing to the Corinthians, he specifically said "the" last trump. During the Feast of Trumpets, the Jews blow short trumpet blasts. They end the feast with a long blast from what is called the last trump, which is blown the longest. Judaism has traditionally connected this last trump with the resurrection of the dead. Paul also made the connection. For many Christians, the association between the rapture and the Feast of Trumpets is so strong, they look for the rapture to someday occur on this feast.

[greenbear]

There are 12 parts, if you would care to listen to them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkyxtWZGyws

[Jazkal]

The word "rapture" is the English word for the Latin word "rapturo". The word "rapturo is the Latin word for "har-pad'-zo" which the NT translators have rendered as "caught up". If you read a Greek Bible you will see the word "harpadzo"If you read a Latin Bible, you will see the word "rapture". If you read an English Bible you will see "caught up". Hopefully, we can lay this spurious argument to rest once and for all.

So the statement, that 'rapture', doesn't show up in the English, Hebrew, or Greek scriptures, is a 100% true statement. Glad you cleared that up for me. I'm curious, why would any one study the Latin texts? Everyone I've read, say the Catholic Latin texts are corrupted translations.



they fail to take into account the fact that John wrote Revelation 40 years after Paul wrote his first epistle to the Corinthians. How could Paul refer to something that was not yet revealed?
You don't think God knew what was going to be written 40 years latter? Are you saying that God is not the Author of ALL SCRIPTURE? Did he not already know what he was going to write in the book of Revelation, before he directed Moses to write the book of Genesis?



As in Calculus, a would be student of the Pre-trib position has to study the Bible in a literal, exacting, dispensational, pre-millennial, pre-tribulational manner in order to find out if that approach indeed allows literal interpretation of all Old and New Testament passages on the great tribulation.
So you have to come to your bible study with a pre-conceived belief system that agrees with itself, before you can even start to actually see the truth?

[Jazkal]

Ok, I was referring to the 'statement' she made in her post, as defined:

state·ment (sttmnt)
n.
1. The act of stating or declaring.
2. Something stated; a declaration.
3. Law A formal pleading.
4. An abstract of a commercial or financial account showing an amount due; a bill.
5. A monthly report sent to a debtor or bank depositor.
6. Computer Science An elementary instruction in a programming language.
7. An overall impression or mood intended to be communicated, especially by means other than words: Glass, exposed beams, and antiques were combined to create a strong decorative statement.

but any way, I'm done here.

[Spectrism]

There are 12 parts, if you would care to listen to them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkyxtWZGyws




I watched the first. I warn all to question everything and no matter how famous any "teacher" may be, seek truth first.

In this video, Missler states MANY things that he already accepts as truth and makes other things sound correct as they agree with the preconceptions. I always want to know what preconceptions- what assumptions are already baked into the formula. In science, this is absolutely required. So also is it in any logical thought process.

He said early on that the trumpet of God is not the same as the trumpets of judgment in Revelation. He did not elaborate on that. He just threw that out there as fact.... would like to hear more on that.

He goes into 2 Th2:6-7 talking about the lawless one who would be revealed after the great falling away. He said it was the Hopy Spirit holding the lawless one under control and that the Holy Spirit would have to be removed for the lawless one to be freed. This is his "strong case" for the Church (indwellt by the Holy Spirit) to be raptured before the man of sin is released. Is it true?

Here is the Literal Translation:
2Th 2:3 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, because that Day will not come unless first comes the falling away, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
2Th 2:4 the one opposing and exalting himself over everything being called God, or object of worship, so as for him "to sit in the temple of God" as God, setting forth himself, that he is God. Dan. 11:36; Eze. 28:2
2Th 2:5 Do you not remember that I told you these things, I yet being with you?
2Th 2:6 And now you know the thing holding back, for him to be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now, until it comes out of the midst.
2Th 2:8 And then "the Lawless One" will be revealed, "whom" "the Lord" "will consume" "by the spirit of His mouth," and will bring to nought by the brightness of His presence. Isa. 11:4
2Th 2:9 His coming is according to the working of Satan in all power and miraculous signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 and in all deceit of unrighteousness in those being lost, because they did not receive the love of the truth in order for them to be saved.
2Th 2:11 And because of this, God will send to them a working of error, for them to believe the lie,
2Th 2:12 that all may be judged, those not believing the truth, but who have delighted in unrighteousness.

There seems to be a great misconception that the Holy Spirit is holding back this lawless one. But look at who is holding him back.... the lawless one himself.

I think there are translational issues with this verse. Definitely one you would want to be careful about if you are building a doctrine. Here is Darby's version:

(Darby) For the mystery of lawlessness already works; only there is he who restrains now until he be gone,

(KJV+) ForG1063 theG3588 mysteryG3466 of iniquityG458 doth alreadyG2235 work:G1754 onlyG3440 he who now lettethG2722 G737 will let, untilG2193 he be takenG1096 out ofG1537 the way.G3319

If you look at the Greek, the message is a bit difficult. I wouldn't want to make this my primary argument.

It does not seem clear who the "he who restrains" is in this. If, as the pre-trib rapturists hold, this is the Holy Spirit, then they are referring to the Church being taken out of the way. I can accept that. But how is the Church being "taken out of the way"? Very clearly, it is NOT from a rapture, but a great falling away!!

[Kali]

As someone once told me...

If you don't understand the pre-trib rapture, don't worry, I will explain it to you on the way up.

;D



Think you are going somewhere Kali?
To the bad side of the gulf maybe for beleiving a false Christ (satan).
Better reread that again because theres nothing in the Bible that says you are flying away. Rapture isnt even a word in the Bible......period. You are beleiving a lie


I am going and even if there was no pre-trib rapture that's cool too...I can suffer for up to 7 years for a life in paradise forever. Time flies...7 years ain't nothing...especially when I'm watching Bible prophecy unfold before my eyes.

If you are here during the tribulation after the great disappearance of many people just remember this conversation. Don't believe the lie they present about this disappearance which they will probably blame on some kind of mass alien abduction.

You will see many "Christians" still here...like many of the TV types...but don't be fooled by them either...they didn't get raptured up with us because they were false prophets.

Remember this.

[StackerKen]

Can some of you give your opinion?

Is it important for me to make a decision about the rapture?

[dysgenic]

Maybe I'm not the best person to offer my opinion, as you know I'm a new Christian and not well versed in scripture. But I believe in my heart that it is important. For some reason that I can't explain, I don't think there will be a rapture (but I still hope there will be).


Can some of you give your opinio
Is it important for me to make a decision about the rapture?

[/quote]

[Kali]

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now, until it comes out of the midst.

But look at who is holding him back.... the lawless one himself.


It doesn't say the lawless one is holding himself back...it only says that "the mystery of lawlessness already is working"

It's not the lawless one working, the mystery of lawlessness is.

I don't know which version you posted but this below is from NKJV which appears to be more accurate to the Greek.

It should say "only He who now restrains will do so (or let) until He is taken out of the way".

So the "He" here appears to be the Holy Spirit..."He" is taken out of the way it says...that would not be the lawless one...the lawless one is not taken out...he will still be here as we know during the trib period.

So who is the "He" that is being taken out and who is the "He" that is doing the taking out?

[Spectrism]

Jaz... hang in there. Don't let childish rants drive you off. Good reason is needed now.




Here is another silly "Baaaah" from God's sheep:

:)

Question to the fellow pre-tribers:

How is it possible that Phyladelphia is promiced to be taken out before the Trib in Rev 3:10, yet it still has overcomers, just like the other six have?

See 1 John 5:5 for ref.

Does it mean that:

1. The Body will be taken out and Phyladelphia? ???

2. All of Phyladelphia will become overcomers ( the Body )? ???

any thoughts?

- Thanks.

--------


Here is the verse in Rev-

Rev 3:10 Because you kept the Word of My patience, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial which is going to come on all the habitable world in order to try those dwelling on the earth.


This is very interesting. Who is the Church in Philadelphia?

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the assembly in Philadelphia, write: These things says the Holy One, the True One, the One having "the key of David," "the One opening, and no one shuts; and shuts, and no one opens:" Isa. 22:22
Rev 3:8 I know your works. Behold, I have given a door being opened before you, and no one is able to shut it, for you have a little power and have kept My Word, and have not denied My name.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I give out of the synagogue of Satan those saying themselves to be Jews, and they are not, but they lie. Behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they shall know that I loved you.


We see the works of the Church at Philadelphia. It seems that they were oppressed by the synagogue of Satan. This is the true Church. These have kept His word and not denied His name. Here is a great promise- I will keep you out of the hour of trial.

Well, when is the hour of trial, and by what means will they be kept from this trial? Again, not solid material to build a rapture doctrine upon. Is there an assembling of all lives upon the return of Messiah for Judgment? A trial, after all, is the uncovering of the evidence in a judgment hearing. This sounds reasonable as the believer is not judged for sins. Instead, the Messiah has washed the stains of sins with His own blood.... those who have kept His word and not denied His name.

[Kali]

Can some of you give your opinion?

Is it important for me to make a decision about the rapture?



No.

It doesn't have any regard to your salvation, the most important issue.

Everything else is secondary and not mandatory.

It could be "important" for some things however...like if you were going to write a book on the rapture...

;D JK

[StackerKen]

Thanks :)

Im just gonna try to keep my lamp filled with oil, and be ready ;D

[Spectrism]

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now, until it comes out of the midst.

But look at who is holding him back.... the lawless one himself.


It doesn't say the lawless one is holding himself back...it only says that "the mystery of lawlessness already is working"

It's not the lawless one working, the mystery of lawlessness is.

I don't know which version you posted but this below is from NKJV which appears to be more accurate to the Greek.

It should say "only He who now restrains will do so (or let) until He is taken out of the way".

So the "He" here appears to be the Holy Spirit..."He" is taken out of the way it says...that would not be the lawless one...the lawless one is not taken out...he will still be here as we know during the trib period.

So who is the "He" that is being taken out and who is the "He" that is doing the taking out?


Are you a Greek scholar? I see differences in translations. There is a time element missing in that verse. The "taken out" could refer to the final judgment.

Here is Young's Literal-
2Th 2:6 and now, what is keeping down ye have known, for his being revealed in his own time,
2Th 2:7 for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work, only he who is keeping down now will hinder --till he may be out of the way,
2Th 2:8 and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of his presence,

It could mean that Satan is lying low- working secretly (mystery) so as not to arouse the sleeping (and doomed) masses. If the devil started flashing his powers, people would decide real quick that this religion thing is true. But look at the craftiness of the devil. He establishes acceptability through the movies, TV, music, etc... the lawlessness that he wears. He makes aliens into cute little ETs that heal people. He will use technology and the New World Order to play with the race that was made in the image of the Almighty. And he will revel in being worshipped by these strays from YHWH's creation.]

The devil is restraining himself in this kingdom which rejects the true God. But the devil will be removed at the final day, by the wrath of God.

[StackerKen]

Maybe I'm not the best person to offer my opinion, as you know I'm a new Christian and not well versed in scripture. But I believe in my heart that it is important. For some reason that I can't explain, I don't think there will be a rapture (but I still hope there will be).





Hey Dys. I wanted to acknowledge your post.

Im glad you are reading and posting here with us.

We most definitely need to be ready for Jesus to return at any moment! :)

[Spectrism]

This is a warning not to pervert the gospel.

Rev 2:20 `But I have against thee a few things: That thou dost suffer the woman Jezebel, who is calling herself a prophetess, to teach, and to lead astray, my servants to commit whoredom, and idol-sacrifices to eat;
Rev 2:21 and I did give to her a time that she might reform from her whoredom, and she did not reform;

And... not to be led astray by false teachings.

[7th trump]

As someone once told me...

If you don't understand the pre-trib rapture, don't worry, I will explain it to you on the way up.

;D



Think you are going somewhere Kali?
To the bad side of the gulf maybe for beleiving a false Christ (satan).
Better reread that again because theres nothing in the Bible that says you are flying away. Rapture isnt even a word in the Bible......period. You are beleiving a lie


I am going and even if there was no pre-trib rapture that's cool too...I can suffer for up to 7 years for a life in paradise forever. Time flies...7 years ain't nothing...especially when I'm watching Bible prophecy unfold before my eyes.

If you are here during the tribulation after the great disappearance of many people just remember this conversation. Don't believe the lie they present about this disappearance which they will probably blame on some kind of mass alien abduction.

You will see many "Christians" still here...like many of the TV types...but don't be fooled by them either...they didn't get raptured up with us because they were false prophets.

Remember this.




Kali,
The hour of trial that spectrism speaks below is the same as the hour of temptation.
The hour of temptation is the 5 months that satan is on this earth play acting as jesus christ.
Your 7 years has been reduced to 3.5 years and Jesus further reduces the 3.5 years to 5 months.
The reason why God is going to keep you from the hour of trial is because if you know satan is play acting a jesus christ what trial could possibly take place if you are alert and wise enough to be not fooled into worshipping satan or even be tempted to follow satan. The trial is to see if you know its satan. Its an abomination to follow satan and no where near any temptation to worship the devil.
What did I say about the churches of Phylidelphia and Smirna a few pages ago?
They were the only churches Jesus approved of because these two churches are the only two out of seven that taught that satan comes first to play act as Jesus Christ.
These two churches kept the faith and since the followers of these two churches know the truth, you are naturally given the key of David that no man can close or open.
They know and understand the parable of the fig tree of the jews who say they are jews and are not and lie.
Knowing you know who they are is power and God giver full power over satan and his children to you. Through Jesus Christ you can order satan around.............................thats the power.

[7th trump]

Maybe I'm not the best person to offer my opinion, as you know I'm a new Christian and not well versed in scripture. But I believe in my heart that it is important. For some reason that I can't explain, I don't think there will be a rapture (but I still hope there will be).





Hey Dys. I wanted to acknowledge your post.

Im glad you are reading and posting here with us.

We most definitely need to be ready for Jesus to return at any moment! :)

Jesus doesnt return at any moment.........................thats the rapture doctrine Ken!
Jesus returns only at thew 7th or last trump, which ever you prefer. You can count 5 months from the appearence of the fake christ and wait three days after the two Witnesses are murdered in the streets of Jerusalem and left in the streets as an example. The Witnesses will resurrect at the moment of the 7th trump when Jesus arrives with a loud entrance.
And as a side note. A day in biblical terms starts at 6am until 6am the next day.
God is a God of light. Also if you are good enough to notice. When God refers to satans time its always measured in moons where as Jesus its the sun, solar.

[StackerKen]

Jesus doesnt return at any moment.........................thats the rapture doctrine Ken!
Jesus returns only at thew 7th or last trump, which ever you prefer. You can count 5 months from the appearence of the fake christ and wait three days after the two Witnesses are murdered in the streets of Jerusalem and left in the streets as an example. The Witnesses will resurrect at the moment of the 7th trump when Jesus arrives with a loud entrance.
And as a side note. A day in biblical terms starts at 6am until 6am the next day.
God is a God of light. Also if you are good enough to notice. When God refers to satans time its always measured in moons where as Jesus its the sun, solar.


Yeah well thanks 7th.
Im still gonna try my best to be ready at all times :)

[7th trump]

Jesus doesnt return at any moment.........................thats the rapture doctrine Ken!
Jesus returns only at thew 7th or last trump, which ever you prefer. You can count 5 months from the appearence of the fake christ and wait three days after the two Witnesses are murdered in the streets of Jerusalem and left in the streets as an example. The Witnesses will resurrect at the moment of the 7th trump when Jesus arrives with a loud entrance.
And as a side note. A day in biblical terms starts at 6am until 6am the next day.
God is a God of light. Also if you are good enough to notice. When God refers to satans time its always measured in moons where as Jesus its the sun, solar.


Yeah well thanks 7th.
Im still gonna try my best to be ready at all times :)

Its always a good idea Ken to be ready. God even says to be ready, but be ready to know its satan who comes first at the 6th trump and Jesus second at the 7th trump.
When satan appears it will be out of season of a harvest. This is a clue when to expect satan to appear.............sometime when fruit trees are bare of fruit and the fields are also bare.
Jesus appears sometime during the summer months when the locust come out and shrubs and such bare their fruits...... a real harvest.

[greenbear]

The word "rapture" is the English word for the Latin word "rapturo". The word "rapturo is the Latin word for "har-pad'-zo" which the NT translators have rendered as "caught up". If you read a Greek Bible you will see the word "harpadzo"If you read a Latin Bible, you will see the word "rapture". If you read an English Bible you will see "caught up". Hopefully, we can lay this spurious argument to rest once and for all.

So the statement, that 'rapture', doesn't show up in the English, Hebrew, or Greek scriptures, is a 100% true statement. Glad you cleared that up for me. I'm curious, why would any one study the Latin texts? Everyone I've read, say the Catholic Latin texts are corrupted translations.



they fail to take into account the fact that John wrote Revelation 40 years after Paul wrote his first epistle to the Corinthians. How could Paul refer to something that was not yet revealed?
You don't think God knew what was going to be written 40 years latter? Are you saying that God is not the Author of ALL SCRIPTURE? Did he not already know what he was going to write in the book of Revelation, before he directed Moses to write the book of Genesis?



As in Calculus, a would be student of the Pre-trib position has to study the Bible in a literal, exacting, dispensational, pre-millennial, pre-tribulational manner in order to find out if that approach indeed allows literal interpretation of all Old and New Testament passages on the great tribulation.
So you have to come to your bible study with a pre-conceived belief system that agrees with itself, before you can even start to actually see the truth?



So the statement, that 'rapture', doesn't show up in the English, Hebrew, or Greek scriptures, is a 100% true statement. Glad you cleared that up for me. I'm curious, why would any one study the Latin texts? Everyone I've read, say the Catholic Latin texts are corrupted translations.
G2Rad addressed that so I won't.


You don't think God knew what was going to be written 40 years latter? Are you saying that God is not the Author of ALL SCRIPTURE? Did he not already know what he was going to write in the book of Revelation, before he directed Moses to write the book of Genesis?

BTW, that is not a greenbear quote that is a quote from an article written by someone else that I posted. I agree that is the weakest argument that he makes. The point he is making is that there is no basis and no proof from scripture that the trump in 1 Cor. 15:52 and 1 Thes 4:16 are the same trumpets found in Revelation 11:15-18, Joel 2:1, and Mat 24:31--which all occur during the tribulation. That is the point.


So you have to come to your bible study with a pre-conceived belief system that agrees with itself, before you can even start to actually see the truth?

I would not describe it as a belief system, it is a method of interpreting the scriptures. Those who fail to take prophetic passages in a literal sense approach bible study with a preconceived method of interpreting the scriptures, including both a-mil's and post mils. Those who fail to distinguish between Israel and the Church come to their Bible study with a preconceived method of study. Those who are mid and post- trib come to their Bible study with a preconceived method of interpreting the scriptures.

A dispensational method of study starts with the recognition that the Church is not Israel, did not inherit the promises specific to physical Israel, and does not have the same destiny as physical Israel. The belief of Pre-mil, Pre-trib Dispensationalists who interpret all scripture, even prophetic scripture literally, and with exactness, is that their method of interpretation results in a harmonization of scriptures in a good way, by rightly dividing the word of truth. This method of study resolves difficulties and answers questions, rather than sweeping them under the rug, like a-mil, post-mil, mid-trib, and post-trib positions do.

[Kali]

I see differences in translations.



Forget checking out all translations...they are biased based on the translators views...go to the Greek.

If you are going to use a English version try the KJV that was around for 360 years before all these new versions popped up on the scene. I doubt God left them in the dark that long so personally, I trust it...but the Greek is the bullet proof version of course.

Just my opinion of course...

[greenbear]

This is a warning not to pervert the gospel.

Rev 2:20 `But I have against thee a few things: That thou dost suffer the woman Jezebel, who is calling herself a prophetess, to teach, and to lead astray, my servants to commit whoredom, and idol-sacrifices to eat;
Rev 2:21 and I did give to her a time that she might reform from her whoredom, and she did not reform;

And... not to be led astray by false teachings.


Oh Spectrism, I'm not calling myself a prophetess and I'm not teaching or leading astray Jesus' servants to commit whoredom, and idol-sacrifices to eat.

We are not currently discussing the gospel. We are discussing pre-trib eschatology which is an understanding that comes from the literal interpretation of prophetic passages. If I'm Jezebel because I believe the Church will not go through the time of testing that will come upon the whole world, then so are millions upon millions of MEN who believe that the testing period is not for the Church, but for Israel and the gentile nations. The test during the church age is whether a person will accept Christ's sacrifice for their sins by believing in him for their salvation. The Church is already saved, and sealed and given the promise of the Holy Spirit. There is no purpose to the Church going through a time of testing, we are already saved and we already possess eternal life. The testing is not for us. The church is made up of sinners who have been born-again by the Spirit, are blood washed, and who will be with Christ forever when he comes for them. The issue we are discussing is WHEN he is coming for his saints. It's just so immature and dishonest to use character assassination and spiritual bullying to try to win a debate. The word of God means something, it is not a weapon to be used out of context as a personal attack against someone just because you have certain feelings about what they are saying.

To say that those who look for the Blessed Hope of Christ's appearing are Idol worshippers and Jezebels is just silly. My hope in not in this world. I look for a better home. I am not looking for the tribulation, I am looking for the return of my Lord.

Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

[StackerKen]

GB you are definitely in good company (pre-trib camp)

One of my favorite radio bible teachers, J. Vernon McGee is/was Pre-trib :)

[Spectrism]

Thanks G2Rad... actually it was a warning to us all. I had no clues of your previous church... although it sounds like mine.

GB seems to pull hissy fits about everything I write.


I was responding to your reference in Rev and the problem that church group had... but I think that can be applied to various groups. And in all the churches of Revelation, I think we can all find some portion of fair warning.

Back to Greenbear's eschatology...


To say that those who look for the Blessed Hope of Christ's appearing are Idol worshippers and Jezebels is just silly.
Then why did you say it, as YOU are the only one who did?


BTW, that is not a greenbear quote that is a quote from an article written by someone else that I posted. I agree that is the weakest argument that he makes. The point he is making is that there is no basis and no proof from scripture that the trump in 1 Cor. 15:52 and 1 Thes 4:16 are the same trumpets found in Revelation 11:15-18, Joel 2:1, and Mat 24:31--which all occur during the tribulation. That is the point.

Try reading these verses and say that again.


1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

[greenbear]

This is a warning not to pervert the gospel.

Rev 2:20 `But I have against thee a few things: That thou dost suffer the woman Jezebel, who is calling herself a prophetess, to teach, and to lead astray, my servants to commit whoredom, and idol-sacrifices to eat;
Rev 2:21 and I did give to her a time that she might reform from her whoredom, and she did not reform;

And... not to be led astray by false teachings.


Oh Spectrism, I'm not calling myself a prophetess and I'm not teaching or leading astray Jesus' servants to commit whoredom, and idol-sacrifices to eat.

We are not currently discussing the gospel. We are discussing pre-trib eschatology which is an understanding that comes from the literal interpretation of prophetic passages. If I'm Jezebel because I believe the Church will not go through the time of testing that will come upon the whole world, then so are millions upon millions of MEN who believe that the testing period is not for the Church, but for Israel and the gentile nations. The test during the church age is whether a person will accept Christ's sacrifice for their sins by believing in him for their salvation. The Church is already saved, and sealed and given the promise of the Holy Spirit. There is no purpose to the Church going through a time of testing, we are already saved and we already possess eternal life. The testing is not for us. The church is made up of sinners who have been born-again by the Spirit, are blood washed, and who will be with Christ forever when he comes for them. The issue we are discussing is WHEN he is coming for his saints. It's just so immature and dishonest to use character assassination and spiritual bullying to try to win a debate. The word of God means something, it is not a weapon to be used out of context as a personal attack against someone just because you have certain feelings about what they are saying.

To say that those who look for the Blessed Hope of Christ's appearing are Idol worshippers and Jezebels is just silly. My hope in not in this world. I look for a better home. I am not looking for the tribulation, I am looking for the return of my Lord.

Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.


GB, Spectr did not call you prophetess.

I trust that post was addressed to me.

Spectr rightfully warned me about the Church in which I was born by my heritage, family, etc.

:)

I say thank you.


That could very well be. Not too sure about that, though.

[Spectrism]

GB you are definitely in good company (pre-trib camp)

One of my favorite radio bible teachers, J. Vernon McGee is/was Pre-trib :)



There's a whole slew of pre-trib "preachers" out there now. If numbers and popularity make them right, then they are right.

The concept makes for happy preaching in Laodicia while denying the suffering of the Church around the world.

[greenbear]

GB you are definitely in good company (pre-trib camp)

One of my favorite radio bible teachers, J. Vernon McGee is/was Pre-trib :)






Yep. He was a good 'un, alright. We have Thru The Bible tape set. What a wonderful man he was. And is. And shall be!

[7th trump]

Greenbear wrote

we are already saved and we already possess eternal life. The testing is not for us. The church is made up of sinners who have been born-again by the Spirit, are blood washed, and who will be with Christ forever when he comes for them. The issue we are discussing is WHEN he is coming for his saints
That maybe true about being saved green, but you nor any of us have yet to put on an immortal body to possess an eternal body...........one that cannot be corruptable. You are still under test green because you are in a corruptable flesh. From what the Lord says I'm going to display a little discernment that you are still corrupted. You ignore scripture to parade your ego of self authority by displaying tissies of having your feelings (ego) hurt. You make do like the camel going through an eye of a key hole and shed the ego.
You can make beleive all you want and bury your head in the sand of the truth, but in the end you better not be caught worshipping the 6th trumpet fake christ come the 7th trump.
The days are shortened for the Elects sake....................not yours.

[StackerKen]

John 10

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

[fiftybagger]

Sorry I don't have a lot time to post, so I will start commenting on this thread from page one

Book said:

"The valuable lesson for us here is that the current malignant tumor growing upon Palestine calling itself "The State Of Israel" has nothing whatsoever to do with the Bible."

That has to be one of the silliest statements I've ever read in my life and does not even merit a response. I will pray for you.

Spectrism said:

"I believe that we cannot exist past 2018 at the absolute latest. I think our days may actually be limited to a date much closer than that. The turmoil I anticipate even in 2010 is enough to make men faint in fear. It will get worse.

What are the gods of Amerika?

money
safety
healthcare
liesure time
sex
comfort
entertainment
food?
freedom
choice"

That may be your belief, but you have provided absolutely no Biblical basis for that belief. Pagan gods are just that, gods. The Bible never confuses the things of the world that the flesh lusts after with gods. You are mistaken in this. 2018, Looks like another date setter to me. Date setters all have one thing in common, perfect failure:

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24
King James Bible

Spectrism said:

"There will be no "pre-tribulation" rapture. After much study, I have come to believe that there will be at best a mid-trib rapture."

At best? You don't sound very certain. Perhaps more study is required.

Spectrism said:

"The cult of the pre-trib rapturists have misapplied scripture and ignored parts."

Cult? Do you know what a cult is? It is a group blindly following a leader and not being Bereans and personally searching the Scriptures themselves. The Catholic Church could fairly be called a cult, people who subscribe to the pre-trib view could at worst be called a school of thought.

StackerKen said:

"I wanted to add that there is no doubt that some will be "taken away"

The Gospels do not teach about the rapture because it was a mystery when Paul revealed it. This verse has nothing to do with the rapture:

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Corinthians 15
King James Bible

7th trump said:

"Ken,
The rapture is not even in the Bible. This rapture doctrine is satans MO. Satan appears at the 6th trump, the 6th seal and the 6th vail.......666. When the fake christ appears he's having a tribulation like non other. Its gonna be one big church revival where his method of operation is to rapture everyone away. A chicken in every pot and mortgages paid in full if you worship him.
How else do you think the devil is going to get the whole world to worship him?......................looking like the devil with a pitch fork murdering everyone? No of course not! Who's going to worship someone like that? Even the blind would know its satan.
In Revelations the devil looks just like the Lamb and has horns (power) but his voice is like the serpent.......................because he is the serpent play acting Jesus Christ.
Be real sceptical of anyone who beleives in the rapture doctrine...................they've already been fooled in beleiving satan is Jesus Christ."

Wow, you are REALLY confused. Not sure where your eschatology comes from, but it's clearly not from the Bible. People already KNOWINGLY worship the devil today, so you are clearly wrong about that point. Don't worry, we'll explain it to you on the way up, that is if you really have a ticket, otherwise you may actually get your wish......

7th trump said:

"What this says is that anybody (life long church goers and all) giving suckle were not faithful while Jesus was away. Basically you are nursing along satans church whorshiping the instead of christ when the real Christ steps foot on earth at the 7th trump."

Standard fare for twisting the Scriptures, Spiritualizing the literal. There's no reason to believe that Jesus meant anything other than nursing mothers in this passage.

7th trump said:

"The rapture doctrine came about from the late 1880's from a mentally disturb woman who said to two priests that the fly away could happen at anytime."

That is a lie, a smear, and simply absurd. Are you sure you know who your real father is? Their is one who is a liar, slanderer, and an accuser. You are fitting that bill quite nicely here.

Greenbear said:

"To all on this thread- The truth is the truth, regardless of what any one of us wants to believe. The truth about something as complex as eschatology is not found by interpreting passages without comparing them with other scriptures. Comparing spiritual things with spiritual, the scriptures interpret themselves. Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Study is not listening to some teacher on the radio, debating on a forum, or just reading someone's books on prophecy, but being like the Bereans and with readiness of mind searching the scriptures to see if these things be so. We are told to rightly divide the word of truth. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little"

Amen and amen

Spectrism said:

"Now, there will be a "catching up", but it will be at a specified time: at the LAST TRUMP.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Ahhh, the famous, or shall I say infamous last trump argument. Unfortunately for its proponents, John's Revelation was written decades later. So this verse is referring to a last trump, that we know for sure. But we also know for sure that it cannot be referring to a trump in John's revelation because Paul was teaching them about something they could refer to and John had not written yet. So it was clearly not referring to what John wrote.

Spectrism said:

"In this, I cannot see any other way.... at the moment. I cannot think that the new age Amerikan will be protected while the rest of the Church is being tortured in various places- India, Africa, China, etc. "

That may be your view, but it is nothing to base an eschatological position on. God can choose to do things any way he wants to, and our conceptions of fairness are skewed and flawed:

12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 14
King James Bible

1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Job 38
King James Bible

[StackerKen]

Im glad you posted Fiffty...... GTSY :)

If this passage is not about the rapture (BTW I never claimed it was)

What is it about?

Matthew 24
37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


ETA; That whole chapter seems to Jesus speaking about end times

[fiftybagger]

In general people who have no argument have to resort to other things such as slander, character assassination, lies, half-truths and distraction. That is in essence what 7th trump and Spectrism have done. Greenbear has done a thorough job of presenting the pre-trib view. Has she been met with well reasoned Scriptural arguments and views? Hardly. She's been called a Jezebel, a false teacher, a deceiver, a hissy fit thrower; all for rationally proposing a view of the Scriptures regarding prophecy that can in no way be regarded as heretical or unbiblical.

Come on people, you can do better than that. At least propose some reasoned arguments from the Scriptures rather attacking the person. You are doing a better job of convincing people of the soundness of the pre-trib view than I could. All they have to do is look at the FRUIT of the critics to see how rotten it is. You can at least pretend to be Christ-like. You might get more followers that way.....

[fiftybagger]

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Luke 17
King James Bible

Ken,

I cannot say with certainty what this verse is about, but the disciple's question seems to be asking where were they taken, and the answer seems to be about judgement. Whether this refers to the great supper of the birds feasting on the flesh of captains etc. or something else I cannot say, but the ones taken here seem to be the bad ones

[7th trump]

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Luke 17
King James Bible

Ken,

I cannot say with certainty what this verse is about, but the disciple's question seems to be asking where were they taken, and the answer seems to be about judgement. Whether this refers to the great supper of the birds feasting on the flesh of captains etc. or something else I cannot say, but the ones taken here seem to be the bad ones

No fifty.........the ones taken are the ones who go and leave to worship the fake christ.
They are not "taken" as in captured. God looks at everyone as his children who worship him so when they leave to worship satan they are in essence leaving God "taken" to worship the fake christ.

[Spectrism]

When I read a couple of fiftybagger's posts, I was dumbfounded. I could not believe the lies he published. How could he read this thread (or did he?) and come up with those insults? I wondered if there was some other connection here. Is fiftybagger a close friend or relative of greenbear? Scrolling down, I see a comment that fiftybagger is the husband of greenbear. Oh... that would make sense. Now for confirmation.

Tell me fiftybagger... are you the husband of greenbear?
If so, I see why you are so blinded and why you made the following false accusations. Either way, I expect to see your apology forthwith. What you did is shameful!




In general people who have no argument have to resort to other things such as slander, character assassination, lies, half-truths and distraction. That is in essence what 7th trump and Spectrism have done.

Try reading the thread friend. Maybe if you actually read the words instead of hearing third person what you want to hear, you might learn something. I began this thread to investigate the events of today in light of biblical history. I know that we can learn much by such a study. Right from the start, greenbear began to derail this thread with pre-trib rapture stuff foisted on us as if it was gospel.


Gb: Western Christians may suffer persecution just like Christians throughout the world have suffered, and are suffering now. Or the Lord could come for his Church in the next moment. We just do not know. The prophetic timeclock has been stopped during the Church Age, and will not start up again until after the Church is raptured off this earth. At that point, the Jews will sign a peace treaty with the man of sin.


BTW- fifty? There is a neat little thing called quoting sources. If you select the text and click the quote symbol, it becomes clear who wrote what. Your post was atrocious with mixed quotes.

In this quote, gb says we just don't know... yet goes on to KNOW that the "prophetic clock" will not start until the church is raptured off the earth. Huh? What buffonery! At the arrival of Messiah, prophecy ceases.



Greenbear has done a thorough job of presenting the pre-trib view. Has she been met with well reasoned Scriptural arguments and views? Hardly.

Try reading the thread. Then come back and exercise some intellectual honesty.


She's been called a Jezebel

You are either a liar or a fool. Where did you get that? You have been played by your wife(?) and been run up the emotional flagpole. No such thing was done. The only reference to Jezebel was a verse I posted because another participant related his view of the endtime church. I DO like to post the associated verses to keep people informed what we are talking about. BUT they have to read the thread- which you did NOT do. I find it odd that greenbear applied that verse to herself when NOBODY else did! Protesteth thou too much?




, a false teacher

Hmmm... when you teach something that is false, what does that make you?



, a deceiver,

Now I don't recall anyone being called that, but I can see some techniques used here that are less than honorable.


a hissy fit thrower;

Finally you hit one! Absolutely! You deny it???



all for rationally proposing a view of the Scriptures regarding prophecy that can in no way be regarded as heretical or unbiblical.

No... for KNOWING what is not known and for teaching what is questionable.... and getting emotionally charged over being questioned on these things. Red flags go up for me when someone KNOWS and insists that others follow them blindly. In response I posted MANY biblical references to question those things.



Come on people, you can do better than that. At least propose some reasoned arguments from the Scriptures rather attacking the person.

YOU came onto this thread and posted no support for the topic while attacking two people here. What is one called when they slander others for what they themselves do?



You are doing a better job of convincing people of the soundness of the pre-trib view than I could. All they have to do is look at the FRUIT of the critics to see how rotten it is. You can at least pretend to be Christ-like. You might get more followers that way.....

Is that your game? Pretending? OK. Got it.



That may be your belief, but you have provided absolutely no Biblical basis for that belief. Pagan gods are just that, gods. The Bible never confuses the things of the world that the flesh lusts after with gods. You are mistaken in this. 2018, Looks like another date setter to me. Date setters all have one thing in common, perfect failure:

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

I listed the things that we spend time and money on. I listed the things that come between God and man. I called these idols and false gods. You actually challenge that???!!! Amazing! Have you ever read the bible?

A date-setter. Tell me... what date did I set? If you want to slander me, let's have some specifics. I would be glad to discuss ALL of these issues in a reasoned manner. If you insist on being petulant, it will not be pleasant for you.



Spectrism said:
"There will be no "pre-tribulation" rapture. After much study, I have come to believe that there will be at best a mid-trib rapture."

fb: At best? You don't sound very certain. Perhaps more study is required.

I don't KNOW it all like you. As for date-setting, please reconcile these posts. I clearly state what I THINK and why. I do not insist that others believe me. Questioning is fine. Truth is a wonderful pathway.



Spectrism said:
"The cult of the pre-trib rapturists have misapplied scripture and ignored parts."

fb: Cult? Do you know what a cult is? It is a group blindly following a leader and not being Bereans and personally searching the Scriptures themselves. The Catholic Church could fairly be called a cult, people who subscribe to the pre-trib view could at worst be called a school of thought.

For years I had no stand on the timing of the rapture.... mostly because I had not studied it to arrive at reasonable conclusions. I had heard through various sources: church pastors, books, Left Behind series, speakers, radio, etc... that the church would be raptured before the tribulation. I accepted it without investment. One day I was challenged to look into it. I began to study the bible with the intent of finding the truth. What I found made the pre-trib rapture look false. There were too many things that just did not add up.

And when I see the large numbers of big names pushing this rapture concept, YES- it sure looks like a cult. Just look at the fight you and gb are putting up here. School of thought? Not when it is emotionally embraced WITHOUT scripture.



The Gospels do not teach about the rapture because it was a mystery when Paul revealed it. This verse has nothing to do with the rapture:

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Methinks you ain't got a clue.


Spectrism said: "Now, there will be a "catching up", but it will be at a specified time: at the LAST TRUMP.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
-----------------------------------------------
fb: Ahhh, the famous, or shall I say infamous last trump argument. Unfortunately for its proponents, John's Revelation was written decades later. So this verse is referring to a last trump, that we know for sure. But we also know for sure that it cannot be referring to a trump in John's revelation because Paul was teaching them about something they could refer to and John had not written yet. So it was clearly not referring to what John wrote.

That is a juvenile argument. Of course Paul is not referencing a future writing. Did you even for a moment stop to think that all the scriptures are referencing the WORD of God? Do you think that Paul just made up his writings? Have you heard of the Holy Spirit?


Spectrism said: "In this, I cannot see any other way.... at the moment. I cannot think that the new age Amerikan will be protected while the rest of the Church is being tortured in various places- India, Africa, China, etc. "
----------------------------
fb: That may be your view, but it is nothing to base an eschatological position on. God can choose to do things any way he wants to, and our conceptions of fairness are skewed and flawed:

12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

You and gb like to throw the "eschatological" word around. Quite frankly, all I see you two throwing around is scatological.

My point was that the Church around the world has been suffering great tribulation. There are more martyrs inthe last century than throughout history. How small-minded of the western church to think that there will be a pre-trib rapture so that we won't have to suffer. Seeing men and women martyred for Messiah in China, Africa, India, etc... has NOTHING to do with your silly "eschatological" arguments. It is happening now.

And you had to gratuitously put another slander in there with a verse that could be applied to anybody.... as if you alone have the right answers.

[7th trump]

In general people who have no argument have to resort to other things such as slander, character assassination, lies, half-truths and distraction. That is in essence what 7th trump and Spectrism have done. Greenbear has done a thorough job of presenting the pre-trib view. Has she been met with well reasoned Scriptural arguments and views? Hardly. She's been called a Jezebel, a false teacher, a deceiver, a hissy fit thrower; all for rationally proposing a view of the Scriptures regarding prophecy that can in no way be regarded as heretical or unbiblical.

Come on people, you can do better than that. At least propose some reasoned arguments from the Scriptures rather attacking the person. You are doing a better job of convincing people of the soundness of the pre-trib view than I could. All they have to do is look at the FRUIT of the critics to see how rotten it is. You can at least pretend to be Christ-like. You might get more followers that way.....

Hey fifty, who says theres no arguement?
Just you...nobody else. So dont come in here selecting the arguement you can shape and mold.
I wouldnt be here trying to correct if there wasnt an arguement and I dont speak of half truths or of distractions. Maybe you think I do from your ignorance of the scriptures, but thats your problem or soon to be your problem.
Green nor you have presented anything to support your supposed "thorough" arguements. In fact, I only started to get a little sturn with her after she demonstrated her little hissy fit. I seen her ego jump out once it was threatened. Greens problem is her ego was threatened not by myself ,but by myself and Spec once G2rad and Ken started to use their brain matter to think for themselves (thanks to Spec posting the revelent scripture) instead of greenie to feed them opinion with no support. Its very much apparent Green true motive. She definately doesnt like having someone taking her audience away from her! Not that that was Spec or myself's motive. The truth shall set you free....................not someones opinion. If anything I'm guilty of harsh words, but Spec and myself are demonstrating unbiased truth based on the Word nothing more and nothing less.

I'm not here to satisfy any ego of people feeding off of me, but to get them to start to think for themselves using the commonsense God bestowed on each and everyone of us. I make it quite clear where I stand. Theres no mistakening about it. I wouldnt argue the Word if you cannot handle the heat. Jesus didnt go to the rightious, he went to the sinners. Thats a tuff crowd if you know what I mean. So if a few select words bother you you are not ready to defend the Word. You are just a pussyfooter dabbling in the Word here and dabbling a little there mixing it up with other views.
Even one of the disciples sliced an ear off.
Yea I'm guilty of harsh words................so what! Whats coming done the road in the near future is what you should be concerned about, not me and the words I chose to address an egotistical pussyfooter spreading half truths and lies.

You cannot prop the truth up by taking sides. The truth is not a respecter of persons nor does the truth kiss any ass. Its a double edged sword for who ever decide to take it up! Its a fine line edge you dont deviate from.

Green after being instructed to translate scripture back into its original language using a concordence wouldnt in most cases. Is that being or demonstrating "thoroughness" or is that being selective? You decide as any unadulterated 2nd grader easily can.
Even G2rad himself says to go to the Greek to better understand the scriptures themselves. I couldnt agree with G2rad more. Do you think greenie would........................only when it supported her view.

[7th trump]

I was as dumbfounded as you were Spec.
But if they want to walk down the road to perdition then so be it............................let them and anybody stupid enough to follow them.
I think you did a great job explaining who's coming at the last trump. Theres only seven trumps and you'd think green and fifty could count to seven.


When I read a couple of fiftybagger's posts, I was dumbfounded. I could not believe the lies he published. How could he read this thread (or did he?) and come up with those insults? I wondered if there was some other connection here. Is fiftybagger a close friend or relative of greenbear? Scrolling down, I see a comment that fiftybagger is the husband of greenbear. Oh... that would make sense. Now for confirmation.

Tell me fiftybagger... are you the husband of greenbear?
If so, I see why you are so blinded and why you made the following false accusations. Either way, I expect to see your apology forthwith. What you did is shameful!




In general people who have no argument have to resort to other things such as slander, character assassination, lies, half-truths and distraction. That is in essence what 7th trump and Spectrism have done.

Try reading the thread friend. Maybe if you actually read the words instead of hearing third person what you want to hear, you might learn something. I began this thread to investigate the events of today in light of biblical history. I know that we can learn much by such a study. Right from the start, greenbear began to derail this thread with pre-trib rapture stuff foisted on us as if it was gospel.


Gb: Western Christians may suffer persecution just like Christians throughout the world have suffered, and are suffering now. Or the Lord could come for his Church in the next moment. We just do not know. The prophetic timeclock has been stopped during the Church Age, and will not start up again until after the Church is raptured off this earth. At that point, the Jews will sign a peace treaty with the man of sin.


BTW- fifty? There is a neat little thing called quoting sources. If you select the text and click the quote symbol, it becomes clear who wrote what. Your post was atrocious with mixed quotes.

In this quote, gb says we just don't know... yet goes on to KNOW that the "prophetic clock" will not start until the church is raptured off the earth. Huh? What buffonery! At the arrival of Messiah, prophecy ceases.



Greenbear has done a thorough job of presenting the pre-trib view. Has she been met with well reasoned Scriptural arguments and views? Hardly.

Try reading the thread. Then come back and exercise some intellectual honesty.


She's been called a Jezebel

You are either a liar or a fool. Where did you get that? You have been played by your wife(?) and been run up the emotional flagpole. No such thing was done. The only reference to Jezebel was a verse I posted because another participant related his view of the endtime church. I DO like to post the associated verses to keep people informed what we are talking about. BUT they have to read the thread- which you did NOT do. I find it odd that greenbear applied that verse to herself when NOBODY else did! Protesteth thou too much?




, a false teacher

Hmmm... when you teach something that is false, what does that make you?



, a deceiver,

Now I don't recall anyone being called that, but I can see some techniques used here that are less than honorable.


a hissy fit thrower;

Finally you hit one! Absolutely! You deny it???



all for rationally proposing a view of the Scriptures regarding prophecy that can in no way be regarded as heretical or unbiblical.

No... for KNOWING what is not known and for teaching what is questionable.... and getting emotionally charged over being questioned on these things. Red flags go up for me when someone KNOWS and insists that others follow them blindly. In response I posted MANY biblical references to question those things.



Come on people, you can do better than that. At least propose some reasoned arguments from the Scriptures rather attacking the person.

YOU came onto this thread and posted no support for the topic while attacking two people here. What is one called when they slander others for what they themselves do?



You are doing a better job of convincing people of the soundness of the pre-trib view than I could. All they have to do is look at the FRUIT of the critics to see how rotten it is. You can at least pretend to be Christ-like. You might get more followers that way.....

Is that your game? Pretending? OK. Got it.



That may be your belief, but you have provided absolutely no Biblical basis for that belief. Pagan gods are just that, gods. The Bible never confuses the things of the world that the flesh lusts after with gods. You are mistaken in this. 2018, Looks like another date setter to me. Date setters all have one thing in common, perfect failure:

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

I listed the things that we spend time and money on. I listed the things that come between God and man. I called these idols and false gods. You actually challenge that???!!! Amazing! Have you ever read the bible?

A date-setter. Tell me... what date did I set? If you want to slander me, let's have some specifics. I would be glad to discuss ALL of these issues in a reasoned manner. If you insist on being petulant, it will not be pleasant for you.



Spectrism said:
"There will be no "pre-tribulation" rapture. After much study, I have come to believe that there will be at best a mid-trib rapture."

fb: At best? You don't sound very certain. Perhaps more study is required.

I don't KNOW it all like you. As for date-setting, please reconcile these posts. I clearly state what I THINK and why. I do not insist that others believe me. Questioning is fine. Truth is a wonderful pathway.



Spectrism said:
"The cult of the pre-trib rapturists have misapplied scripture and ignored parts."

fb: Cult? Do you know what a cult is? It is a group blindly following a leader and not being Bereans and personally searching the Scriptures themselves. The Catholic Church could fairly be called a cult, people who subscribe to the pre-trib view could at worst be called a school of thought.

For years I had no stand on the timing of the rapture.... mostly because I had not studied it to arrive at reasonable conclusions. I had heard through various sources: church pastors, books, Left Behind series, speakers, radio, etc... that the church would be raptured before the tribulation. I accepted it without investment. One day I was challenged to look into it. I began to study the bible with the intent of finding the truth. What I found made the pre-trib rapture look false. There were too many things that just did not add up.

And when I see the large numbers of big names pushing this rapture concept, YES- it sure looks like a cult. Just look at the fight you and gb are putting up here. School of thought? Not when it is emotionally embraced WITHOUT scripture.



The Gospels do not teach about the rapture because it was a mystery when Paul revealed it. This verse has nothing to do with the rapture:

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Methinks you ain't got a clue.


Spectrism said: "Now, there will be a "catching up", but it will be at a specified time: at the LAST TRUMP.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
-----------------------------------------------
fb: Ahhh, the famous, or shall I say infamous last trump argument. Unfortunately for its proponents, John's Revelation was written decades later. So this verse is referring to a last trump, that we know for sure. But we also know for sure that it cannot be referring to a trump in John's revelation because Paul was teaching them about something they could refer to and John had not written yet. So it was clearly not referring to what John wrote.

That is a juvenile argument. Of course Paul is not referencing a future writing. Did you even for a moment stop to think that all the scriptures are referencing the WORD of God? Do you think that Paul just made up his writings? Have you heard of the Holy Spirit?


Spectrism said: "In this, I cannot see any other way.... at the moment. I cannot think that the new age Amerikan will be protected while the rest of the Church is being tortured in various places- India, Africa, China, etc. "
----------------------------
fb: That may be your view, but it is nothing to base an eschatological position on. God can choose to do things any way he wants to, and our conceptions of fairness are skewed and flawed:

12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

You and gb like to throw the "eschatological" word around. Quite frankly, all I see you two throwing around is scatological.

My point was that the Church around the world has been suffering great tribulation. There are more martyrs inthe last century than throughout history. How small-minded of the western church to think that there will be a pre-trib rapture so that we won't have to suffer. Seeing men and women martyred for Messiah in China, Africa, India, etc... has NOTHING to do with your silly "eschatological" arguments. It is happening now.

And you had to gratuitously put another slander in there with a verse that could be applied to anybody.... as if you alone have the right answers.

[greenbear]

Come on people, you can do better than that. At least propose some reasoned arguments from the Scriptures rather attacking the person. You are doing a better job of convincing people of the soundness of the pre-trib view than I could. All they have to do is look at the FRUIT of the critics to see how rotten it is. You can at least pretend to be Christ-like. You might get more followers that way.....


fiftybagger is one of our Christians, going back to long ago.
Very knowledgeable on the Scripture guy.

I believe his wife was treated unfairly.

I was urging here to love and forgiveness,

She suffered from "rare end", we heard f-words, "hissing" and what not. :(
There is no end for it :(
She never used any of those-kind-of words on her opponents.

it is only right that angry husband is in here to stand up for his wife.


G2Rad,

It takes a lot more than this to make him "angry". Anger without a cause is sin. Telling the truth straight on without mincing words is not anger. Sure, he'd protect me from physical harm, but he could generally care less about foolish words spoken about me on a message board.

[StackerKen]

G2Rad,

It takes a lot more than this to make him "angry". Anger without a cause is sin. Telling the truth straight on without mincing words is not anger. Sure, he'd protect me from physical harm, but he could generally care less about foolish words spoken about me on a message board.


That is a good way to be.
We all need to remember that. these are just "words spoken on a message board".

We should be able to discuss things with out getting personal.
And telling folks they are sons of the devil or they are going to hell.

don't ya think?

[7th trump]

Come on people, you can do better than that. At least propose some reasoned arguments from the Scriptures rather attacking the person. You are doing a better job of convincing people of the soundness of the pre-trib view than I could. All they have to do is look at the FRUIT of the critics to see how rotten it is. You can at least pretend to be Christ-like. You might get more followers that way.....


fiftybagger is one of our Christians, going back to long ago.
Very knowledgeable on the Scripture guy.

I believe his wife was treated unfairly.

I was urging here to love and forgiveness,

She suffered from "rare end", we heard f-words, "hissing" and what not. :(
There is no end for it :(
She never used any of those-kind-of words on her opponents.

it is only right that angry husband is in here to stand up for his wife.

G2rad the "rear end" was used to let green know that Gods is going to seperate the goats from the sheep. Green thinks or beleives shes gonna be "raptured away" and be saved? She's not if she continues with that rapture nonsense.
You posted the answer yourself a few post back.


Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
this is the fake christ, satan, play acting as Christ


For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

this is why the 7 seven years has been shortened to 5 months


Behold, I have told you before.

Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Again Christ is telling you that this is an imposter play acting as Christ himself.

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
for as sure as the sun rises from the east and sets to the west the real Lord Jesus Christ will return.


For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
this is satans tribulation when he appears at the 6th trump. he bring 10,000 other angels that left their habitation in the early days of Noah which a flood was needed to destroy the hybrids between these 10,000 fallen angels and humans.


And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And now you have the 7th trump where the real Jesus Christ appears. This is where green will be handed her behind for allowing herself to worship the fake christ. She will mourn with the rest because the real Christ came like a theif in the night and caught green and the rest worshipping the fake christ. She will have no idea shes worshipping the devil because shes to occupied in beleiving this fake christ imposter is going to rapture her away into the clouds. Well it doesnt happen because like a thief in the night the real Christ appears.

[StackerKen]

Im still trying to figure out where I stand on this rapture thingy.

Grad quoted this passage from Matthew

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: and so on...

When will they see the "abomination of desolation"
is that Pre trib or mid trib?


Also Grad pointed out that Noah was "Taken away"

Could it be said that Noah was "taken though" the flood?



Thank you all for Having patience with me. :)

[StackerKen]

G2rad the "rear end" was used to let green know that Gods is going to seperate the goats from the sheep. Green thinks or beleives shes gonna be "raptured away" and be saved? She's not if she continues with that rapture nonsense.
You posted the answer yourself a few post back.



What the heck 7th? ???

Are You are trying to say that if a person holds to a pre-trib rapture stance that they are not saved?

You can't be saying that...are you?

[7th trump]

G2rad the "rear end" was used to let green know that Gods is going to seperate the goats from the sheep. Green thinks or beleives shes gonna be "raptured away" and be saved? She's not if she continues with that rapture nonsense.
You posted the answer yourself a few post back.



What the heck 7th? ???

Are You are trying to say that if a person holds to a pre-trib rapture stance that they are not saved?

You can't be saying that...are you?

No Ken!
What are the scriptures telling you?
The scriptures are telling you if you are caught worshipping lucifer as Christ and the real Christ appears before you figure who he really is then yes the real Christ will condem you. But no if you dont beleive its the real Christ.
This is why the Elect are here. They will witness against this fake during his time of 5 months on earth. They are predestined the ten day trial where God will speak through them exsposing the fake for who he really is.

[StackerKen]

Thats good 7th

I like to think that the Lord will keep his children safe.
Just like a mother hen would.

No one can snatch them from his hands

[7th trump]

Thats good 7th

I like to think that the Lord will keep his children safe.
Just like a mother hen would.

No one can snatch them from his hands

Well then be carefull of those who want you to beleive their is a fly away rapture.
Like greenbear wants you to beleive that Christs comes first to fly you away into a cloud.
Do what Christ says, not what green say, and beleive it not.


Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

[StackerKen]

Thanks Grad.

I was pointing out that apparently at least some of the saved will see the abomination of desolation happen. (Mid trib)

[7th trump]

Im still trying to figure out where I stand on this rapture thingy.

Grad quoted this passage from Matthew

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: and so on...

When will they see the "abomination of desolation"
is that Pre trib or mid trib?


Also Grad pointed out that Noah was "Taken away"

Could it be said that Noah was "taken though" the flood?



Thank you all for Having patience with me. :)


Ken, I may be wrong :) , bu it appears to me from reading Mathew+Mark vs. Luke, that those are two different events described.

1. Mathew talks about taking out (Rupturing away) of Christ-believing-Jews (and non-Jews ??? ) that survived the holocaust of the seven years of Great Tribulation, at the very end of those seven years.

2. Luke talks about taking out (Rupturing away) the Church, the believers before the Tribulation starts, just like Noah and Lot were taken out suddenly, before tribulation (flood and fire on Sodom) was poured out

Read the Scripture yourself and form your own oppinion :)

-----------------

Abomination of Desolation- is when Antichrist will build an Idol in Solomon's temple. The same Temple that Jews are thinking of rebuilding in Israel in these days. It will happen 3.5 years after Anti-Christ "destroys" :) anti-Semitism on Earth

( that's what I think, does not mean it is truth )

Ken the "abomination of desolation" is satan standing in Jerusalem claiming to be Christ. satan is going to have a church revival like none other right there in Jerusalem. Why wouldnt he? hes claiming to be Christ. How else can you think he could get the whole world to worship him?
In Revelations its speaks of satan having the face of the Lamp having horns (power). (For heaven sakes hes even granted magnificent powers) but his voice is of a dragon. Why?
because he is the dragon.........the serpent, lucifer, the son of perdition the antichrist and so on of the mutliple roles this fake has.

G2rad,
Whats this?


Abomination of Desolation- is when Antichrist will build an Idol in Solomon's temple. The same Temple that Jews are thinking of rebuilding in Israel in these days. It will happen 3.5 years after Anti-Christ "destroys" :) anti-Semitism on Earth

The "Abomination of Desolation" is satan not some made up event. There is no 3.5 years after anything. satan's time on earth is shortened from 7 years to 3.5 down to 5 months for the Elects sake. This is all the time alotted to the desolator to get as many people fooled into his little red wagon of perdition as he can.
5 months is the tribulation of satan and like the flood of Noah there will be a flood of lies coming from the mouth of satan.

[StackerKen]

7th;
I have read that the time will be shortened.
Can you show me where it says 5 months?

[dysgenic]

This is from the guy that made the illuminati card game and correctly predicted 9-11 in 1995:

'tape runs out'
http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1753.cfm

[fiftybagger]

To be perfectly frank, these debates aren't really fruitful, and are more a waste of my time than I'm willing to spend. There are plenty of confused believers who don't understand eschatology, Israelology, or dispensationalism and therefore cannot rightly divide the Scriptures or harmonize them. Teaching them is a much more productive use of my time than arguing with people who already have their minds made up(in error).

If you would like to become educated concerning these matters there are plenty of good teachers:

Chuck Ryrie
Hal Lindsey
Dave Hunt
Chuck Missler
Arnold Fruchtenbaum
John Walvoord
Noah Hutchings

to name a few. If you would like to understand prophecy, I would suggest you read a few or all of them. If you would like argue in circles about doubtful disputations, you will have to do it with someone else. My wife is perfectly capable of defending her own arguments, and if she chooses to continue to do so then more power to her. But I have better places to spend my time. You might want to start by actually addressing the arguments she has made, and verses she has cited, rather than engaging in ad hominem attacks. Good luck to you.

9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Titus 3
King James Bible

7 He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.

8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

9 Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

Proverbs 9
King James Bible

[Spectrism]

To be perfectly frank, these debates aren't really fruitful, and are more a waste of my time than I'm willing to spend. There are plenty of confused believers who don't understand eschatology, Israelology, or dispensationalism and therefore cannot rightly divide the Scriptures or harmonize them. Teaching them is a much more productive use of my time than arguing with people who already have their minds made up(in error).

If you would like to become educated concerning these matters there are plenty of good teachers:

Chuck Ryrie
Hal Lindsey
Dave Hunt
Chuck Missler
Arnold Fruchtenbaum
John Walvoord
Noah Hutchings

to name a few. If you would like to understand prophecy, I would suggest you read a few or all of them. If you would like argue in circles about doubtful disputations, you will have to do it with someone else. My wife is perfectly capable of defending her own arguments, and if she chooses to continue to do so then more power to her. But I have better places to spend my time. You might want to start by actually addressing the arguments she has made, and verses she has cited, rather than engaging in ad hominem attacks. Good luck to you.

9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Titus 3
King James Bible

7 He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.

8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

9 Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

Proverbs 9
King James Bible


You entered the fray kicking and screaming like a blind man swinging a cane at imaginery attackers and so you leave. You did not answer the heart of the issues of this thread and instead found it more fitting to slander. When confronted about that, you respond that you find such arguments fruitless and go back to slandering. Good riddance.

[Kali]

Well then be carefull of those who want you to beleive their is a fly away rapture.



It's happened before in scripture...it can happen again.

[7th trump]

Well then be carefull of those who want you to beleive their is a fly away rapture.



It's happened before in scripture...it can happen again.



What happened before?.......................a rapture? where.
please do tell.

[Spectrism]

Anyone who wants to consider the pre-trib rapture, dispensationalism or study the very popular false teachers that fiftybagger listed should read the counter side. Here is a link that seems to do a pretty good job of destroying those arguments.
================================================
http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/articles/full.asp?id=9%7C21%7C651

Dispensationalism: A Return to Biblical Theology or Pseudo Christian Cult - Part III by Gospel Plow

5. How the Pretribulational Rapture Denies the Gospel

We have discussed the fact that the dispensationalist's understanding of 'dispensation' invalidates the reality of grace in any age, how the dispensational 'Kingdom Offer' impugns the honesty of God and makes the gospel nothing more than an afterthought, and how presumed distinctions between Israel and the church deny the New Covenant to either. We will now examine how the peculiarly dispensational doctrine of the Pretribulational Rapture of the Church makes manifest these errors.

The novel doctrine of the pretribulational rapture is central to dispensational teaching. The removal of the church to heaven preceding the Tribulation period, when the stopped prophetic clock begins ticking for Israel again with the 'Seventieth Week of Daniel', was Darby's innovation.
Darby broke not only from previous millenarian teaching but from all of church history by asserting that Christ's second coming would occur in two stages. The first, an invisible 'secret rapture' of true believers could happen at any moment, ending the great 'parenthesis' or church age which began when the Jews rejected Christ. 24
Scofield also taught this doctrine along with Chafer, Ryrie, Walvoord, etc. At dispensational schools, failure to hold steadfastly to the doctrine of the pretribulational rapture may have dire consequences.
...the doctrine of a pretribulational rapture of the church seems to be a litmus test of orthodoxy. To 'outsiders,' including classic premillennialists, this doctrine is not crucial, if it is believed at all. But not only is it vigorously maintained in Dallas Dispensationalism, but deviation from it causes a person to be suspect and institutions to shake and sometimes split.25
It is unfortunate that 'outsiders' - historic premillennialists, postmillennialists, and amillennialists - have not taken this distinctively dispensational doctrine more seriously, for it is here that dispensational theology stands or falls. It is the doctrine of the pretribulational rapture that proves conclusively that Dispensationalism is not, as dispensationalists claim, a return to Biblical theology - but a pseudo Christian cult.

Most arguments against pretribulationism have focused upon showing that the doctrine is a new development in theology and can not be found in the scriptures. Various orthodox commentators and theologians, from the ranks of each of the millennial views26, have presented this case with considerable skill. We will therefore take a different tack, and show that the doctrine is in direct opposition to the everlasting Gospel of Christ Jesus.

Most earlier dispensational theologians allowed that the Old Testament saints would be resurrected along with the church in the pretribulational rapture. Alexander Reese, a classic premillennialist, utterly destroyed this position with convincing scriptural arguments locating the resurrection of the Old Testament saints at the Day of the Lord at the end of the Tribulation.27
'At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. -Daniel 12:1-2

Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, 'My lord, what shall be the end of these things?' And he said, 'Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 'Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand. 'And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 'Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. 'But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.' -Daniel 12:8-13
No dispensationalist would argue that the 'time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation', the 'abomination of desolation', and the taking away of the daily sacrifice is not a reference to the time of the Tribulation. Yet, Daniel is told that the resurrection follows these events.

Dispensationalists then, for the most part, amended their position to separate the resurrection of the Old Testament saints from the rapture.
...many careful students of premillennial truth have come to the conclusion that the opinion that Israel's resurrection occurred at the time of the rapture was a hasty one and without proper Scriptural foundation. It seems far more preferable to regard the resurrection of Daniel 12:2 as a literal one following the tribulation, but not to be identified with the pretribulational rapture of the church... The church will be raised at the time of the rapture before the tribulation, and the Old Testament saints, including Israel, at the beginning of the millennial reign of Christ. 28
On this point the dispensationalist has jumped from the frying pan into the fire. In order to preserve the precious doctrine of the pretribulational rapture of the church, they raise the Old Testament saints apart from the saints of the church age. We note that this is consistent with the dispensational understanding of 'dispensations' and with their distinction between Israel and the church. It also reveals that the longstanding charge made by orthodox Christianity that dispensationalism teaches multiple methods of salvation is absolutely true. Let us look at some of the texts concerning the resurrection of the saints -
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: 'Death is swallowed up in victory.' 'O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?' -1 Cor 15:50-55

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. -1 Thes 4:15-17
In these classic dispensational proof texts of the pretribulational rapture, we see that the righteous dead are raised first, and then those who are alive and remain are translated into incorruptable bodies and gathered to Christ. How, then, can the dispensationalist justify the concept of the Old Testament saints being raised at some later point in time?
Some people are startled by the thought that the Old Testament saints will not be resurrected until the end of the Tribulation. But keep in mind that the rapture is a promise to the Church, and the Church only.29
We see that the dispensationally imposed distinction between Israel and the church is at the root of this argument. The Old Testament saints are not 'in Christ' and therefore will not arise to everlasting life at the same time as the church saints.
According to dispensationalists, the Old Testament people are not the heirs of the Holy Spirit, are not regenerated by Him, and are not grafted by Him into Christ in the same way that the New Testament people are.30

...the verse simply says that the dead in Christ will precede the living in Christ in the rapture. If you are saying that Daniel would be included in 'the dead', then you have to show that Daniel is 'in Christ'. If you will study the NT you will see that 'in Christ' refers to the baptism in the Holy Spirit. 'For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink'...There is no way that Daniel was part of the body of Christ. This verse in 1 Thess 4:16 simply does not apply to him. The Holy Spirit did not permanently indwell believers in the OT. It is not really people or time period that delineates the church--it is the Holy Spirit. Personal faith in Jesus Christ--which is what the passage is referring to--was not an option for OT saints. They are not in view in this passage. It is referring to people who do have the option of this personal faith in Jesus...OT saints are 'in Christ' in that sense that the death of Jesus is the basis for the salvation of anyone--past, present, future. However, they were not part of the body of Christ, in the sense of being permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit. 31

[Spectrism]

(continued)
The technical term for the Church is those who are 'in Christ.' 1 Thess. speaks of those who have died 'in Christ' being resurrected at the time of His coming IN THE AIR. The context has ONLY the Church in mind. 32
This dispensational distinction between the OT & NT saints, the church & Israel, is in fact what denies dispensationalism any claim to Christianity at all, for in that very distinction dispensationalism teaches multiple methods of salvation. By excluding the OT saint from the ekklesia (church) the dispensationalist is required to produce some means, other than partaking of the New Covenant in Christ, for one or the other of the groups to be granted eternal life. The teaching of the church for the last 2,000 yrs precludes this, as does our Lord.
Then Jesus said to them, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. ' - John 6:53-56 33
Notice these points which contradict Dispensational doctrine -
No one has life who does not partake of the New Covenant in Christ's Blood. The OT saint must partake, as does the NT & tribulation saint, in order to have life.


ALL who partake are raised at the LAST DAY. That day is the 'end of the days' prophesied to Daniel -

'But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.'- Daniel 12:13


ALL who partake are 'in Christ' and He in they.


ALL THE SAINTS are promised the same resurrection, by the same Blood, at the same time!

And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. -Hebrews 9:15

By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. -Hebrews 11:9-10

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth...But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. -Hebrews 11:13,16

And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us. -Hebrews 11:39-40
The dispensationalist, ignoring the clear teaching of scripture and the historic church, denies the existence of the general assembly, and falls back to perdition by advocating shadows as the means of salvation for the OT & Tribulation saint, all in order to preserve the delusion of the pretribulational rapture!
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, 'Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.' Now this, 'Yet once more,' indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. For our God is a consuming fire. -Hebrews 12:22-29
The dispensational argument that proclaims that the OT saint is somehow saved because of Christ - rather than being 'in Christ' by partaking of the New Covenant in His Blood - is opposed to orthodox Christian soteriology.
The truth will inevitably manifest itself. It has in dispensational soteriology. The truth is that another way of salvation which is somehow connected with Christ but not resting on Christ is a DIFFERENT way. The dispensationalist at this point is, unconsciously perhaps, consistent with himself. He does not regard the Old Testament people of God as second, third, or fourth class citizens of the Kingdom of God. They simply are not citizens at all. While dispensationalists roundly assert that Old Testament people were saved by Christ, there is NO WAY IN THEIR THEOLOGICAL SYSTEM they could be.34
6. Questions for Dispensationalists

If the dispensationalist will simply answer these honestly presented queries, we will be able to discern whether the accusations against dispensationalism are true -

1. Has the OT saint partaken of the blood of Christ shed for sins?
Then Jesus said to them, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.' -John 6:53-54

And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, 'Take, eat; this is My body.' Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, 'Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.' -Matthew 26:26-28
2. Does the Spirit of Christ dwell in the OT saint?
'He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.' -John 6:56

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. -Romans 8:9
3. Are ALL the saints of ALL the ages ONE BODY, drinking of the SAME Spirit?
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread. -1 Cor 10:16-17

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body-- whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. -1 Cor 12:13
If one answers in the affirmative the above queries, one has abandoned Dispensationalism. Congratulations, brother, welcome to orthodox Christianity! If one answers any of the above in the negative, then the accusations against dispensationalism are true, and we would ask that person to produce the means of the OT saints salvation!

Soli Deo Gloria !

FOOTNOTES
Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today (Chicago: Moody Press, 1965), 41-45

Darby introduced into discussion at Powerscourt (1833) the ideas of a secret rapture of the church and of a parenthesis in prophetic fulfillment between the sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks of Daniel. These two concepts constituted the basic tenets of the system of theology since referred to as dispensationalism... E.R. Sandeen, The Roots of Fundamentalism 1800-1930 (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1970)

The End Times: A Study on Eschatology and Millennialism, A Report of the Commission on Theology and Church Relations LCMS, Sept. 1989, p.3

C.I. Scofield, Scofield Reference Bible, 1909,1917(notes on John 1:17 sec.2) p.1115

Ibid., p.5

Though claiming Calvinist roots, on this point the dispensationalist apparently agrees with Zwingli and Pelagius rather than Calvin or Luther

The Augsburg Confession, Article II [ Original Sin ]

New Scofield Reference Bible, p.3

Quoted in Jon Zens, Dispensationalism, p.12

L.S. Chafer, 'Dispensationalism,' Bibliotheca Sacra 93 (1936):93

L.S. Chafer, Systematic Theology, 7:219

D.G. Barnhouse, He Came Unto His Own (New York: Revell, 1933), p.17

Ibid.

Scofield, 'Scofield Bible Correspondence Course', pp. 23-25, cited in Zens, Dispensationalism, p.17

Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today, pp.137-140

J.N. Darby, The Hopes of the Church of God (London: G. Morrish, n.d.), p.106

Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today, pp.44-45

Ryrie, THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE NEW COVENANT TO PREMILLENNIALISM (unpublished Master's thesis, Dallas Theological Seminary 1947), p. 31

Ibid.

Lewis Sperry Chafer, Systematic Theology, VII, 98.

Walvoord, The Millennial Kingdom, p. 218.

John F. Walvoord, 'The New Covenant With Israel,' Bibliotheca Sacra, 103:24, 25, January, 1946.

Albertus Pieters, The Seed of Abraham, p. 71-76

W.A. Hoffecker, Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, 'Darby, John Nelson,' pp. 292-3.

John H. Gerstner, Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth: A Critique of Dispensationalism (Brentwood, TN: Wolgemuth & Hyatt, 1991), 47.

Alexander Reese (premill.), O.T. Allis (amill.), W.E. Cox (amill.), Greg Bahnsen & Kenneth Gentry (postmill.) are notable among others

Alexander Reese, The Approaching Advent of Christ (Marshall, Morgan and Scott, London, 1937; reprint, Grand Rapids MI: Grand Rapids International Publications, 1975), 328 p.

John F. Walvoord, Israel in Prophesy (1962; reprint, Grand Rapids MI: Zondervan, 1977), 116, 118.

David R. Reagan, The Master Plan: Making Sense of the Controversies Surrounding Bible Prophecy Today (Eugene OR: Harvest House, 1993), 123.

John H. Gerstner, Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth: A Critique of Dispensationalism (Brentwood TN:Wolgemuth & Hyatt, 1991), 206.

'Resurrection Apart from Christ?' Bill Barton, Armageddon, FamilyNet, 10/21/93.

'Rapture,' Gary Nystrom, Armageddon, FamilyNet, 5/28/94.

Here we also note the grievous error of many Christians in viewing the Lord's Supper as a memorial rather than the Sacrament that it is.

John H. Gerstner, Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth: A Critique of Dispensationalism (Brentwood TN: Wolgemuth & Hyatt, 1991), 169.

E.W. Bullinger, Foundations of Dispensational Truth (London: Eyre and Spottiswood, 1931), 34.

Ibid., p.219.

Harry Ironside, Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth (New York: Loizeaux, n.d.), 11.

John H. Gerstner, Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth: A Critique of Dispensationalism (Brentwood TN:Wolgemuth & Hyatt, 1991), 204-5.

[Spectrism]

Here is a better study of the rapture- 3.5 parts

http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/articles/full.asp?id=21|21|40

Is the Pretribulation Rapture Biblical? by Brian Schwertley

One of the most popular teachings today in Evangelical and Charismatic churches is the doctrine of the pretribulation rapture. The pretribulation rapture teaching is that there are two separate comings of Christ. The first coming is secret and occurs before the future seven year tribulation. At this coming Jesus comes for the saints (i.e., all genuine believers) both living and dead. These saints meet the Lord in the air and then are taken to heaven to escape the horrible judgments that take place during the seven year tribulation. At the end of the great tribulation Jesus returns to the earth with the saints. This coming is not secret but is observed by all. At this coming Christ crushes His opposition, judges mankind and sets up a one thousand year reign of saints upon the earth (the millennium). Some pretribulation advocates speak of two separate comings while others prefer to speak of one coming in two separate stages or phases (phase one is the secret rapture and phase two is the visible coming in judgment). Hal Lindsey likes to refer to the rapture as “the great snatch.” He writes: “The word for ‘caught up’ actually means to ‘snatch up,’ and that’s why I like to call this marvelous coming event ‘The Great Snatch’! It’s usually referred to as the ‘Rapture,’ from the Latin word rapere, which means to ‘take away’ or ‘snatch out.’”1

Although the pretribulation rapture doctrine is very popular and is even considered so crucial to Christianity that it is made a test of a person’s orthodoxy in some denominations, Bible colleges and seminaries, the exegetical and theological arguments used by its advocates are all classic cases of forcing one’s theological presuppositions onto particular texts (eisegesis). The purpose of this brief study is to show that the pretribulation rapture theory is not plainly taught or directly stated in any place in Scripture, cannot be deduced from biblical teaching, contradicts the general teaching of the Bible regarding Christ’s second coming and was never taught in any branch of the church prior to 1830.

The Origin of the Pretribulation Rapture Teaching

Whenever a Christian encounters a doctrine that has not been taught by anyone in any branch of Christ’s church for over eighteen centuries, one should be very suspect of that teaching. This fact in and of itself does not prove that the new teaching is false. But, it should definitely raise one’s suspicions, for if something is taught in Scripture, it is not unreasonable to expect at least a few theologians and exegetes to have discovered it before. The teaching of a secret pretribulation rapture is a doctrine that never existed before 1830. Did the pretribulation rapture come into existence by a careful exegesis of Scripture? No. The first person to teach the doctrine was a young woman named Margaret Macdonald. Margaret was not a theologian or Bible expositor but was a prophetess in the Irvingite sect (the Catholic Apostolic Church). Christian journalist Dave MacPherson has written a book on the subject of the origin of the pre-tribulation rapture. He writes: “We have seen that a young Scottish lassie named Margaret Macdonald had a private revelation in Port Glasgow, Scotland, in the early part of 1830 that a select group of Christians would be caught up to meet Christ in the air before the days of Antichrist. An eye-and-ear witness, Robert Norton M.D., preserved her handwritten account of her pre-trib rapture revelation in two of his books, and said it was the first time anyone ever split the second coming into two distinct parts or stages. His writings, along with much other Catholic Apostolic Church literature, have been hidden many decades from the mainstream of Evangelical thought and only recently surfaced. Margaret’s views were well-known to those who visited her home, among them John Darby of the Brethren. Within a few months her distinctive prophetic outlook was mirrored in the September, 1830 issue of The Morning Watch and the early Brethren assembly at Plymouth, England. Early disciples of the pre-trib interpretation often called it a new doctrine.”2

John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), who was the leader of the Brethren movement and the “father of modern Dispensationalism,” took Margaret Macdonald’s new teaching on the rapture, made some changes (she taught a partial rapture of believers while he taught that all believers would be raptured) and incorporated it into his Dispensational understanding of Scripture and prophecy. Darby would spend the rest of his life speaking, writing and traveling, spreading the new rapture theory.

The Plymouth Brethren openly admitted and were even proud of the fact that among their teachings were totally new ones which had never been taught by the church fathers, medieval scholastics, Protestant Reformers or the many commentators.

The person most responsible for the rather widespread acceptance of Pretribulationalism and Dispensationalism among Evangelicals is Cyrus Ingerson Scofield (1843-1921). C. I. Scofield published his Scofield Reference Bible in 1909. This Bible, which espoused the doctrines of Darby in its notes, became very popular in Fundamentalist circles. In the minds of many a Bible teacher, fundamentalist pastor and multitudes of professing Christians, Scofield’s notes were practically equated with the word of God itself. If a person did not adhere to the Dispensational, Pretribulational scheme he or she would almost automatically be labeled a modernist.

Today there is a whole plethora of books advocating the pretribulation rapture theory and the Dispensational understanding of the end times. Given the fact that among professing Christians the pre-trib rapture is still wildly popular, a comparison of this theory with scriptural teaching is warranted. We will see that the typical arguments offered in favor of this theory are in conflict with the Bible.

Revelation 3:10

A passage of Scripture that is considered crucial for a defense of the pretribulation rapture position is Revelation 3:10. “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” It is argued that this passage refers to the great tribulation (“the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world”) and that the church is promised a physical removal from the world for protection. The “from the hour of trial” (ek tes horas tou peirasmou) is interpreted in a spatial sense. The preposition ek, translated from, is interpreted as a preposition of motion. The saints will be taken out from within the earth to heaven. Thus, they are kept or preserved from the hour of trial.

The pretribulation interpretation of Revelation 3:10 is totally off the mark for a number of reasons. First, standard biblical methods of interpretation must be completely ignored to apply this passage to a future tribulation two thousand years in the future. The letter is addressed to a specific church (Philadelphia) in Asia Minor in the first century. The specific promise that is made by Jesus is given to the Philadelphian Christians and cannot be applied directly to all the churches of Asia Minor or the universal church. For example, the church of Smyrna is told that they “will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful unto death” (Rev. 2:10). They are to take comfort in the fact that they cannot be hurt by the second death (2:11). They are not promised protection from the coming time of tribulation. Further, the promise to the Philadelphian Christians is based on their past behavior: “Because you have kept [eteresas—aorist active indicative]...I also will keep.” “The aorist ‘didst keep’ states the historical fact. The church held fully and completely to the Word as was stated in v. 8: ‘and didst keep my Word.’”3 Because the promise is based on the behavior of a particular church in Asia Minor it cannot be universalized to include all Christians in the distant future. To do so is to render the commendation to the Philadelphians meaningless.

Second, the time indicators within the passage render impossible the idea that the promise was not to take place for two thousand years. The passage says that the hour of trial is about to happen. “I also will keep thee from the hour of trial that is about to come upon all the world” (Rev. 3:10, Young’s Literal Translation of the Bible). When the verb mello is joined to the present infinitive which is what is found in Revelation 3:10 (tes mellouses erchesthai), it always expresses imminence. When Jesus says that the hour of trial is about to come, He means it will happen soon.4 To place the promise thousands of years away is a denial of the plain meaning of the Greek language. Chilton writes: “Does it make sense that Christ would promise the church in Philadelphia protection from something that would happen thousands of years later? ‘Be of good cheer, you faithful, suffering Christians of first century Asia Minor: I won’t let those Soviet missiles and killer bees of the 20th century get you!’ When the Philadelphian Christians were worried about more practical, immediate concerns—official persecution, religious discrimination, social ostracism, and economic boycotts—what did they care about Hal Lindsey’s lucrative horror stories?”5

Third, the Pretribulationist’s idea that ek (from) in verse 10 is used in a spatial sense and thus refers to the saints being moved outside of the earth away from tribulation is not supported by the immediate or broader context of the book of Revelation. This novel interpretation cannot be found in any theological work or commentary prior to 1830 when the pre-tribulation theory was first espoused by Margaret Macdonald in western Scotland. Also, it is a historical fact that the church of Philadelphia was not taken to heaven during the tumult and persecution that took place soon after the Philadelphian Christians received this prophecy. The idea that Revelation 3:10 refers to the rapture is a classical case of reading one’s own preconceived opinions into a text. The most logical understanding of ek (from) in Revelation 3:10 is that Christ will protect the Philadelphian Christians from the soon-to-come trials. This understanding is exactly how the identical Greek phrase is used in John 17:15: “keep them from the evil one.” Jesus’ prayer does not refer to a spatial separation but to protection from the wiles of Satan. The church of Philadelphia is not going to be beamed out of the Roman empire but it will be protected and preserved through the coming trials.6

Further, according to the Dispensational understanding of the great tribulation, all genuine Christians must be raptured at the beginning of the tribulation while the Jews must stay on earth and go through the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it involves both an abandonment of the literal principle of interpretation and an arbitrary interpretation of the word “from” (ek). In other words when ek is used of Christians it means they will be raptured to safety in heaven, but when it is used of Jews it means they will remain on earth but receive protection. Oswald T. Allis writes: “Jer. xxx. 7 declares, ‘but he shall be saved out of it’ (literally, ‘from it’). Dan. xii. 1 says only, ‘thy people shall be delivered.’ In Rev. iii. 10 we read, ‘I also will keep thee from (ek) the hour of trial.’ In chap. vii. 14 we are told of those ‘who have come out of (ek) the great tribulation.’ Matt. xxiv. 22 by speaking of the shortening of the days of the tribulation clearly implies that the elect will pass through it. John xvii. 15 illustrates the ambiguity of the preposition ‘from’ (ek in the same sense of ‘out of,’ ‘away from’) the world, ‘but that thou shouldest keep them from (ek) the evil.’ the purpose of the sealing of the servants of God before the pouring out of the plagues (vii. 3) favors the view that they are to pass unscathed through them. Why should not the same apply to Rev. iii. 10? It seems rather inconsistent to insist that ‘from’ in Jer. xxx. 7 must mean that Israel will pass through the tribulation, but that ‘from’ in Rev. iii. 10 must mean that the church of Philadelphia, and by implication the entire church then on earth, will not pass through it but be delivered from it by rapture.”7

Dispensationalists, who are the chief advocates of the pretribulation rapture, claim that they are the champions of a literal approach to biblical interpretation. They say that a literal approach to prophecy logically leads to the pretribulation view. Yet there are a number of important passages such as Revelation 3:10 where Dispensationalists take a very non-literal approach while their theological opponents take a very literal approach. It has already been noted how the literal view of Revelation 3:10 has been totally ignored in order to posit a tribulation and rapture thousands of years in the future. This contradiction to the literal method of interpretation is also found in their overall view of the letters to the seven churches. According to C. I. Scofield and the vast majority of Dispensational authors, the seven churches of Revelation chapters 2 and 3 represent seven consecutive chronological periods of church history. According to the general outline of this scheme the church of Philadelphia represents a period of church revival and great missionary activity (A.D. 1750-1925) while Laodicea (the seventh century) represents the final period of church history, which is one of compromise and apostasy. This interpretation raises a number of questions. 1.) If the seven churches are seven consecutive periods of church history, why is the rapture passage in the sixth period, the time of revival and not the seventh and last period, the time of apostasy? If Dispensationalists were to be consistent they could not claim Revelation 3:10 as a proof text for the rapture. The Dispensational view of Revelation contains serious internal contradictions. 2.) There is not one thing within the text or context of this passage that indicates that the seven letters are somehow prophetic of seven long periods of church history. Although such an interpretation may be popular, one is not obligated to hold to a view that has no exegetical basis. 3.) The interpretation that claims the seven churches are seven long periods of church history is a very non-literal approach to biblical interpretation. Dispensational scholars are fond of accusing Amillennial and Postmillennial expositors of spiritualizing various Scripture passages. Yet the idea that the seven letters are long periods of church history is itself a blatant example of spiritualizing Scripture. The Dispensational slogan of “literal whenever possible” is a claim that obviously is not a reality.

[Spectrism]

Is the Pretribulation Rapture Biblical? (part 2)

Revelation 4:1

Another proof text for the pretribulation rapture theory is Revelation 4:1, “After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, ‘Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.’” Pretribulationists cite this verse and then remark that the church is not observed on earth again until Revelation 19 when believers return to earth for the millennial reign of Christ. Pretribulationists reason that since the church is not mentioned as being on earth during the great tribulation after Revelation 4:1, then John’s removal to heaven must be equated with the rapture. Hal Lindsey gives us an example of the typical Pretribulationist understanding of this verse. He writes: “It’s important to note that the Church has been the main theme of Revelation until Chapter 4. Starting with this chapter, the Church isn’t seen on earth again until Chapter 19, where we suddenly find it returning to earth with Christ as He comes to reign as King of kings and Lord of lords.... Although Revelation 4:1 does not specifically refer to Christ’s reappearance at the Rapture, I believe that the Apostle John’s departure for heaven after the church era closes in Chapter 3 and before the tribulation chronicle begins in Chapter 6 strongly suggests a similar catching away for the Church.”8

Does Revelation 4:1 and the fact that the word church (ekklesia) is not mentioned in chapters 4 through 18 prove or support the pretribulation rapture theory? There are a number of reasons why this argument in favor of Pretribulationism should be rejected. First, this argument is an argument from silence in which the idea of the pretribulation rapture is presupposed and then imposed upon this section of Scripture. In the immediate context (Revelation 4:2) it says that John the apostle is transported to the throne room of heaven. Not one word is uttered that suggests that John represents the church or that the people of God as a whole are taken to heaven. Also, there is not any mention or any indication whatsoever of a descent by Christ or a resurrection of the saints. In Revelation 4:1 there is mention of a trumpet but this is not the trumpet blast announcing the rapture. It is a voice that has a sound of a trumpet just like the voice of authority that John heard in Revelation 1:10, “I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet.” What occurred in Revelation 4:1 with John was no different than the transportation and throne room scenes experienced by other prophets (e.g., Ezek. 1:1, 22-28; 8:3-4 [Ezekiel is apparently below the crystal sea looking up to the throne room]; Isa. 6:1 ff.; 2 Cor. 12:1-4).

Second, the argument from silence is arbitrarily applied to Revelation and could be used to prove many heretical doctrines if applied to other theological topics. The argument from silence consistently applied would not prove the rapture of the saints but the annihilation of the saints, for not only is the word church (ekklesia) not used of the saints on earth in chapters 4 through 18, it also is never used of the saints in heaven. Does this mean that all the saints have vacated heaven and moved to Limbo or some other place during these chapters? No. Of course not! This argument, if consistently applied, leads to an incredibly absurd conclusion. The word church (ekklesia) does not even occur in the book of Revelation until Revelation 22:16. Does this mean the church is not involved in the second coming, the resurrection or white throne judgment? No. Obviously not! An argument that proves too much is worthless.

Further, the reasoning that Pretribulationists use to make Revelation 4:1 a proof text for the rapture could also be used to prove many dangerous and heretical doctrines. In the book of Esther the words for God and Jehovah do not occur even once. Does this fact mean that God does not exist, or that God is a deistic absentee landlord of the universe? No. It certainly does not. It should be clear to everyone from this example that arguments from silence are useless.

Third, a careful examination of Revelation 4 through 19 proves conclusively that the church is on earth during this period. John does not use the word church (ekklesia) in these chapters but given the nature of apocalyptic literature where allusions to the Old Testament are constantly used to dramatically portray coming events, the non-use of the word church in the highly symbolic prophetic section of the book is not surprising. In chapter 6 after the opening of the fifth seal the martyred saints ask God to avenge their deaths on the persecutors “who dwell on the earth” (v. 10). These martyred Christians are told wait “until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed” (v. 11). The phrase fellow servants and brethren is used in Revelation to describe Christians in Revelation 6:11, 19:10 and 22:9. Paul uses the same terminology in Colossians 1:7; 4:7. There is not a shred of evidence to support the idea that those martyred during the tribulation are a Jewish remnant. These are Christians of every nation (cf. Rev. 7:9, 14) who die because the church of Christ is persecuted on earth.

In Revelation 7 there are the 144,000 saints of God. Dispensationalists argue that this large group refers to literal Israel and not the New Testament church which has been raptured. This view is based on a literal understanding of verse 4: “One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed.” Although the idea of “literal whenever possible” is good, Revelation 7:4 ff. is obviously not meant to be interpreted literally. In Revelation chapter 7 God uses the imagery of the old covenant Israel’s military camp divisions (1 Chron. 4-7) to symbolize the new covenant church of God as an overcoming conquering army of Jehovah. This is evident for the following reasons. First, the book of Revelation often employs descriptions of Old Testament Israel directly to the new covenant church. The church is called a kingdom of priests (textus receptus—kings and priests) which is an allusion to the Old Testament identification of Israel in Exodus 19:6 (found in Revelation 1:6; 5:10; 20:6). The church of Jesus Christ is identified as the New Jerusalem—the gates of which bear the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. The foundation of the city bears the names of the twelve apostles.

Second, we are specifically told in Revelation itself that the 144,000 are those redeemed by Jesus Christ from among men. “These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb” (Rev. 14:4). Third, the literal interpretation of Revelation 7:4ff ignores the fact that ten of the twelve tribes had disappeared in Assyria. Virtually all the ten tribes had inter-married with pagans and had long ago lost their ethnic identity. Further, “if Israel according to the flesh were meant, why should Ephraim and Dan be omitted? Surely not all the people in the tribe of Dan were lost. Not Reuben but Judah is mentioned first. Remember that our Lord Jesus Christ was of the tribe of Judah (Gn. 49:10).”9 Fourth, the teaching of the New Testament is that the church which is composed of both Jews and Gentiles is the true Israel of God (cf. Rom. 2:28-29; 9:6; Gal. 6:16; 1 Pet. 1:1; 2:9-10). James, writing to Christians, even calls them “the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad” (Jas. 1:1). Paul taught that all who believe in Christ are the true sons of Abraham (Rom. 4:11-17; Gal. 3:7); that the middle wall of partition has been removed by Christ; the believing Jews and Gentiles are one body (Eph. 2:14ff.). The church of Christ is one building (Eph. 2:20-22) and one bride (Eph. 5: Rev 21:9ff.). Fifth, that the 144,000 refers to all believers is proved from Revelation 9:4 where the demonic scorpions are told they can only harm those who do not have God’s seal on their forehead. Are we to believe that Jewish believers are protected while their Gentile brothers are left to perish? Of course not! The church of Jesus is definitely still on earth during the great tribulation.

2 Thessalonians 2:6-7

Another argument for the pretribulation rapture is based on 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7, “And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season. For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way” (ASV). The standard Dispensationalist understanding of this passage is that the restrainer spoken of is the Holy Spirit. Pretribulationists argue that since the Holy Sprit dwells and works to restrain evil by means of the church, a removal of the Spirit entails a removal of the church. Once the church is raptured the Antichrist will be revealed.

Although this passage is a difficult one that has resulted in many different interpretations, the idea that this passage teaches the removal of the Holy Spirit is theologically impossible and totally contradicts the Dispensationalist’s own interpretation of the events that are supposed to take place during the tribulation. After the rapture a Jewish remnant of 144,000 is converted to Christ. These Jews will be the greatest evangelists the world has ever seen, who bring multitudes to Christ from every nation. What is wrong with this understanding of Scripture? It places the Dispensationalist in the position of either denying his own interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 or of denying the biblical teaching regarding the Holy Spirit’s role in converting sinners. The Bible teaches that no one can be converted without the regenerating and drawing power of the Holy Spirit (Ezek. 36:25-26; Jn 1:13; 3:5-8; Ac. 5:31; 11:18; 16:13-14; 1 Cor. 2:12-14; 2 Cor. 4:6; Eph. 2:1, 5; Col. 2:11; Tit. 3:5). Yet, Pretribulationists teach that the 144,000 Jews are converted after the departure of the Holy Spirit. They also teach that the preaching of these converted Jews will be a hundred times more fruitful without the Holy Spirit than the preaching of the church with the Holy Spirit throughout the so-called church age. Multitudes are said to be converted to Christ from every nation during the absence of the Holy Spirit in only 1260 days! The truth is that if the Holy Spirit is removed, there would be no converts during the tribulation—not even one.

Realizing the obviously unbiblical nature of the standard view, many modern Dispensationalists argue that the Holy Spirit is not taken away, “but ‘taken out of the way;’ thus the Holy Spirit will continue a divine activity to the end-time, though not as a restrainer of evil through the church.”10 In other words the Holy Spirit doesn’t go away to heaven, He merely gets out of the way so that the anti-Christ can have sway over the masses. This interpretation avoids the absurdity of mass conversions without the Holy Spirit. However, it also removes 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 as a proof text for the pretribulation rapture. If the Holy Spirit doesn’t leave the scene but merely ceases to restrain the forces of evil as He had before, there is no longer any reason to suppose that this passage indicates the rapture of the church. The idea that the Holy Spirit is dependent on the church to restrain evil is not supported by Scripture. Further, even if the restraining power of the Holy Spirit came by means of the church, would not the massive revival throughout the earth caused by the preaching of the converted Jewish remnant also be a restraining of evil by Christ’s disciples (His church)? Dispensationalists can not have it both ways. Therefore, this passage has nothing to do with the rapture.

Another reason that this passage should not be considered a proof text for the rapture is Paul’s teaching in the immediate context. The Thessalonians were troubled because of false teaching regarding the day of Christ. Many within the church believed that the day of the Lord had already taken place. Paul wants to remove any misconceptions regarding this coming day by pointing out that certain events must take place before this coming. Paul says there must first be a falling away or rebellion and the man of sin must be revealed. Then he gives certain details regarding the man of sin and when these things will occur. What is particularly interesting regarding this section of Scripture is that it proves that the Thessalonians who had previously received instructions by Paul did not know anything about a pretribulation rapture. If they had been taught such a doctrine then they would have known that the day of the Lord could not have taken place, for the rapture had not yet occurred. Furthermore, it proves that Paul did not believe in a pretribulation rapture (or that he was negligent in his instructions), for Paul says nothing about a rapture that is to occur seven years before the day of the Lord. If Paul believed in pretribulation rapture one would expect him to say: “Don’t be deceived that the day of the Christ has already come, brethren. It can only come after you have been raptured to heaven. The fact that you are still on earth is proof positive that it had not yet occurred.” Paul does not tell the Thessalonian brothers to look for the rapture but to look for an apostasy (or rebellion) and the man of sin. If the pretribulation rapture theory were true, why would Paul instruct these Christians to look for events that are supposed to happen during the tribulation, when the church is not supposed to be around? It is obvious that Paul presupposes that the church will indeed be present on earth during the great tribulation.

[Spectrism]

Is the Pretribulation Rapture Biblical? (part 3)

1 Thessalonians 5:9

One of the most popular arguments for the pretribulation rapture is based on 1 Thessalonians 5:9, “For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” It is argued that the great tribulation is an unprecedented time of God’s wrath falling upon the whole world. Since believers are specifically told that they are not appointed to wrath, it is only logical to conclude that the church will be removed from the earth before God’s wrath is poured out. This removal is the rapture of the saints. This argument for the rapture is fallacious for a number of reasons. First, it assumes that the wrath spoken of in verse 9 is the wrath poured out during the tribulation. The context of chapter 5 however makes it abundantly clear that the wrath spoken of in verse 5 is not the wrath of the tribulation but the wrath that occurs at the second coming of Christ—the day of the Lord (cf. 1 Th. 5:1-3).

Second, it assumes that the only method at God’s disposal for protecting the church from His wrath is a total removal from the earth. An examination of the wrath of God in both testaments reveals that the Pretribulationist assumption is totally unwarranted. When God poured out His wrath upon Egypt, He spared the people of Israel (cf. Ex. 8:22-23; 9:4-6, 11, 26; 10:23; 11:7; 12:23; 14:28-29) without first removing them out of the land. The prophet Isaiah says explicitly that God can judge the earth without harming His own covenant people who remain on earth. “Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, until the indignation is past. For behold, the LORD comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; the earth will also disclose her blood, and will no more cover her slain” (Isa. 26:20-21).

The nail in the coffin to the Pretribulationist use of 1 Thessalonians 5:9 comes from the book of Revelation which shows that God’s people are protected from His wrath during the tribulation. In Revelation 6:16 it is the heathen that ask the mountains and rocks to protect them from the wrath of the lamb. A wrath that falls as a response to the prayers of persecuted and martyred saints (Rev. 6:9-11). After the fifth trumpet is sounded, the locusts of destruction are ordered by God only to harm “those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads” (Rev. 9:4). God’s saints are specifically protected from harm. In Revelation 9:20-21 we are told that these plagues were directed to wicked men. Revelation 14:9-10 says that those who are to experience God’s wrath and undiluted indignation are those who receive the mark of the beast; who worship the beast and his image. This obviously excluded Christians. Revelation 16:1-2 says that God’s wrath (the first bowl) is only to be poured out on the worshipers of the beast, who have his mark. Once again believers are excluded. In 16:9 and 11 those who receive God’s plagues are identified as blasphemers who refuse to repent. A careful reading of Revelation demonstrates that although God’s people experience persecution, death and harm at the hands of wicked men they are carefully and lovingly excluded from every act of God’s wrath. God’s wrath only falls upon those who are the enemies of Christ and His church. The wrath that falls on the wicked is God’s loving response to the prayers of His saints. Does the church need to be completely removed from the earth to be spared from God’s wrath, as Pretribulationists assert? The Scriptures answer that question with an emphatic “no!”

The “Children in the Millennium” Argument

One argument that is used by both pre and mid-tribulationists is based on the necessity of human beings entering the millennium with natural, non-glorified bodies. Premillennialists teach that during the millennium people with glorified bodies will dwell side by side with people who have not yet been glorified. The millennium must begin with people who are converted after the rapture yet before the second coming so that procreation can occur during the millennium. Natural bodies and procreation are necessary because descendants are needed who will rebel against Christ at the end of His earthly reign. If the rapture and second coming occur at the same time, then all believers would have glorified bodies and there would be no natural descendants who could rebel. Christians with glorified bodies cannot rebel because one aspect of glorification is losing the ability to commit sin.

This argument may have an effect upon historic Premillennialists who believe in a literal one thousand year reign of Christ on earth that is to begin immediately after the post tribulation rapture and second coming occurs. It, however, has no effect upon those (Amillennial and Postmillennial) believers who reject Premillennialism as unscriptural.

Because the Bible very clearly teaches in both the gospels and epistles that the second coming of Christ, the rapture, the resurrection and judgment of the righteous and the wicked are to occur on the same day (the day of the Lord) Premillennialism with its separate resurrections and judgments must be rejected. Note the following passages.

Matthew 25:31-46—“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world....’ Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels....’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 13:30—“Let both [the righteous and the wicked] grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, ‘First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn’” (cf. Mt. 13:47-50).

John 5:28-29—“Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”

John 6:39-40—“This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day” (Cf. Jn. 6:44, 54).

From these passages we learn that Christ taught a general judgment of all men, not just the wicked. Jesus plainly taught that there will be a general resurrection in which all men will be raised on the same day. There is nothing in the New Testament regarding a partial bodily resurrection which is followed by another bodily resurrection or 1000 years (or for the Dispensationalist, 1007 years). Further, Jesus taught that the bodily resurrection of the dead and the day of judgment occur on the last day. The designation last day means the end of human history. It precludes another thousand years of non-glorified earthly existence.

The epistles of Peter and Paul are even more explicit in their rejection of Premillennialism.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10—“...it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed....”

For the apostle Paul, the punishment of the wicked and the reward of the righteous are to occur simultaneously, immediately following the second coming of Christ. There is nothing here teaching separate comings. There is nothing about a secret rapture. There is no 7 year, 1,000 year or 1,007 year gap between the glorification of the saints and the destruction of the wicked. According to Paul they occur the same day (“that Day”), the day Christ returns. Further, note that Christ comes from heaven to crush His enemies and judge the world. Jesus does not crush the wicked from His earthly throne in Jerusalem, as Premillennialists assert. Note also that there are no wicked people left to populate the earth during the millennium, and the saints will all have glorified bodies.

1 Corinthians 15:23-26, 50-54—“But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end…. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death…. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.... Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: ‘Death is swallowed up in victory.’”

According to Paul, the second coming of Christ and the glorification of the saints will occur immediately prior to the final state. Christ returns, the saints receive immortal, glorified bodies “then comes the end.” (The adverb eita, translated then in “then comes the end” in the New Testament, never refers to a long period of time. It is the adverb used to denote a short period of time.) There is no place in Paul’s understanding of the second coming to put a 1,000 year reign. When Christ returns, the kingdom is delivered to the Father. Furthermore, after Christ’s return, death is completely destroyed and abolished. How can there be converts in the millennium who live, have children and die, if death is abolished at the second coming?

1 Thessalonians 5:1-4, 9-10—“But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, ‘Peace and safety!’ then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.... For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.”

Once again the apostle Paul teaches that the day of the Lord is a day of deliverance for the saints but wrath for the wicked. Paul does not tell believers, to look for a secret rapture seven years before the second coming. He points them to the second coming itself when both parties, believers and unbelievers will be dealt with. Believers are to “watch, and be sober” in preparation for the second coming (1 Th. 5:6). When Christ returns they will “live together with Him” (1 Th. 5:10) but unbelievers will receive God’s wrath—sudden destruction will come upon them (1 Th. 5:3). If Christians are to be secretly raptured away from the earth seven years before Christ’s second coming, then why do the Scriptures repeatedly teach that Christians are to remain on earth until the revelation of Christ? The resurrection of the righteous and the wicked and the final judgment both occur on the same day, the day of the Lord (Mt. 13:47-50; 25:31-34, 41; Jn. 5:28-29; 6:3-40, 44, 54; Rom. 2:5-8, 16; 1 Th. 5:1-4, 9-10, etc.).

2 Peter 3:4-10—“‘Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation’.... But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.... But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat....” Peter teaches that the second coming, the day of judgment and the beginning of the final state occur contemporaneously. Like Paul, Peter says that these events occur on the “the day of the Lord.” According to Premillennialism Christ does not come on the day of judgment, because He is already on earth ruling from Jerusalem. But Peter says that when Christ returns, the judgment occurs and then the heavens and the earth are destroyed. The Premillennialist believes that Christ will return and rule on earth for 1,000 years before the elements are destroyed. Thus Peter’s account of Christ’s coming totally contradicts Premillennial doctrine.11

The “Translation Versus Return” Argument

Another pre-tribulationist argument is based on the difference between the translation of the saints at the rapture and the return of Christ to earth to establish His millennial kingdom. It is argued that the rapture of the saints is a catching away up into the air. However, the return of Christ is a returning to earth. Therefore, since the rapture and second coming describe two very different activities (one is a catching up while the other is a going down) they must be two separate events separated by time. Pretribulationists also argue that a clear demarcation exists between the rapture and second coming on the basis that at the rapture no judgment occurs but at the second coming there is a judgment. Once again this is supposed to prove that the rapture and second coming are two separate events that take place at different times (a seven-year difference).

These Pretribulationist arguments should be rejected for the following reasons. The idea that the difference between the translation of the saints and the return of Christ proves the pretribulation rapture theory is an argument begging the question. In other words it assumes what it sets out to prove. It is true that the rapture and the return to earth are not exactly the same events. This point, however, tells us nothing regarding the time sequence of these events. Jesus could meet the saints in the air as He returns to earth. There is no scriptural reason to assume a seven year gap between the rapture and return. Given the passages discussed in our consideration of Premillennialism, the rapture, second coming, and general judgment all occur on the same day. The saints meet Christ in the air and return to earth with Him.

What about the argument that at the rapture no judgment takes place but at the second coming there is a judgment? As noted above there is no biblical reason to take events such as the rapture, second coming and judgment that all are to occur the same day and insert several years between them. What is particularly devastating to the Pretribulationist is the fact that when Paul discuss the second coming and gives us the most explicit passage in the New Testament on the rapture he connects Christ’s descent with both the rapture and the judgment of the wicked. “But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.... For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, ‘Peace and safety!’ then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief” (1 Th. 4:13-17; 5:2-4). Note that Paul connects the second coming, the rapture and the destruction of the wicked all together. He presents them as coterminous and not separated by seven years. Everything will take place on that “Day” (5:4)—the day of the Lord. Furthermore, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 explicitly teaches that the rapture is a public event, not secret: “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.”

Oswald T. Allis exposes the fallacious manner in which Pretribulationists make subtle distinctions in Paul’s terminology which the apostle himself never intended. He writes: “The question which confronts us is this. If the distinction between the rapture and the appearing is of as great a moment as Dispensationalists assert, how are we to explain Paul’s failure to distinguish clearly between them? And the failure of other writers, Peter, James and John, to do the same? Paul was a logician. He was able to draw sharp distinctions. If he had wanted, or regarded it important, to distinguish between these events, he could have done so very easily. Why did he use language which Dispensationalists must admit to be confusing? Feinburg [a noted Dispensationalist scholar] made the following surprising statement regarding the three words we have been discussing: ‘We conclude, then, that from a study of the Greek words themselves the distinctions between the coming of the Lord for His saints and with His saints is not to be gleaned’ (Premillennialism or Amillennialism? p. 207). Such an admission raises the question whether the distinction itself is valid. If the distinction is of importance, Paul’s ambiguous language is, we may say it reverently, inexcusable. If the distinction is negligible, accuracy of statement would be quite unnecessary. We conclude, therefore, that the language of the New Testament and especially of Paul not merely fails to prove the distinction insisted on by Dispensationalists but rather by its very ambiguity indicates clearly and unmistakably that no such distinction exists.”12

[Spectrism]

Is the Pretribulation Rapture Biblical? (part 4)

The “No Signs Verses Many Signs” Argument

A popular Pretribulationist argument is based on the idea that passages which discuss Christ’s second coming indicate that many signs will proceed the second coming, while passages that discuss the rapture mention no signs. Feinberg writes: “In Matthew 24:32-51 our Lord makes it clear that these signs are to alert the believers that His coming is near: ‘Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door’ (Matt. 24:33). On the other hand, there is no mention of any signs or events that precede the Rapture of the church in any of the Rapture passages. The point seems to be that the believer prior to this event is to look, not for some sign, but the Lord from heaven. If the Rapture was a part of the complex of events that make up the Second Advent, and not distinct from it, then we would expect that there would be a mention of signs or events in at least one passage.”13 In other words you can’t have signs and no signs at the same time. Therefore, the rapture and second coming must occur at different times.

The signs verses no signs argument should be rejected for a number of reasons. First, the idea that certain signs will precede the second coming of Christ is based on an incorrect interpretation of Matthew 24. The signs of Matthew 24:6-33 (wars, famines, pestilence, earthquakes, false prophets, etc.) are signs not of the second coming but of the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 by the armies of Titus. This is indicated by the context (Mt. 23), the disciples’ question (Mt. 24:3), the time indicator (Mt. 24:34) and the parallel passage in Luke 21:20. After noting the signs Jesus said, “Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass till all these things take place” (Mt. 24:34). Kik writes: “Viewing what is obvious from this sentence, one would judge that every thing mentioned in the previous verses were to be fulfilled before the contemporary generation would pass away. That is certainly the evident meaning, and one that may be taken as literal. The generation living at the time of Christ would not pass away until all things he had mentioned hereto were manifested.”14

Second, passages which are used as proof texts for no signs before the rapture are better interpreted as referring to the second coming itself and not just the rapture. A favorite passage for Pretribulationists is 1 Thessalonians 5:2 which says, “the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.” The coming as a thief in the night is interpreted to mean that the rapture comes secretly. That is, it is a surprise. There are no signs that precede it. The problem with such a view is: 1.) The phrase “day of the Lord” is consistently used in the New Testament to refer to the day of judgment which occurs a the second coming; and, 2.) The context of 1 Thessalonians 5:2 clearly indicates that the day of the Lord is a day when the enemies of God will be destroyed (cf. 1 Th. 5:3). Christians are told to watch and live sober because they know the day of judgment is coming (1 Th. 5:6ff.). The signs vs. no signs argument simply has no exegetical support.

Conclusion

Although the pretribulation rapture theory is very popular today, given arguments that are offered in support of this doctrine we must declare Pretribulationalism to be contrary to the clear teachings of Scripture. Simply put, there is not one shred of evidence that can be found in the Bible to support the pretribulation rapture. The typical Pretribulational arguments offered reveal a pattern: of imposing one’s presuppositions onto a text without any exegetical justification whatsoever; of finding subtle meaning between words and/or phrases that were never intended by the author; of spiritualizing or ignoring passages that contradict the Pretribulational paradigm; and, of imposing Pretribulationalism upon passages that actually teach the unity of the eschatological complex (i.e., the rapture, second coming, general resurrection, and general judgment all occur on the same day—the day of the Lord). It is our hope and prayer that professing Christians would cast off this escapist fantasy and return to the task of personal sanctification and godly dominion.

FOOTNOTES

1 Hal Lindsey, There’s a New World Coming (New York. NY: Bantam, 1975 [1973]), p. 60.

2 Dave MacPherson, The Incredible Cover-Up: The True Story of the Pre-Trib Rapture (Plainfield, NJ: Logos International, 1975), p. 93. The following scholars are cited by MacPherson who agree with MacPherson’s contention that pre-tribulationism is a fairly modern doctrine that originated in or around 1830: Samuel P. Tregelles, Alexander Reese, Floyd E. Hamilton, Oswald T. Allis, D. H. Kromminga, George E. Ladd and J. Barton Payne. MacPherson also cites several Dispensational, pre-trib scholars who admit that the pre-trib theory is in fact a new doctrine: W. E. Blackstone, H. A. Ironside, Charles C. Ryrie, Gerald B. Stanton and John F. Walvoord.

3 R. C. H. Lenski, The Interpretation of St. John’s Revelation, (Minneapolis, MN: Augsburg Publishing, 1943), p. 143.

4 For a scholarly defense of this assertion see Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation (Tyler TX: Institute for Christian Economics, 1989), pp. 141-142.

5 David Chilton, The Days of Vengeance: An Exposition of the Book of Revelation (Ft. Worth, TX: Dominion, 1987), p. 129.

6 After spending a number of pages analyzing the pretribulation approach to the word ek in Rev. 3:10 Douglas J. Moo writes: “1) The evidence that ek can mean ‘outside position’ in a spatial sense is nonexistent in biblical Greek; 2) The combination tareo or diatareo ek denotes protection from, or guarding against a real and threatening danger.... 4) The phrases qualifying ‘the hour of trial’ imply nothing at all about the presence or removal of the church. The lexical and contextual evidence strongly favors the interpretation according to which Christ in Revelation 3:10 promises His church protection from the real and present danger of affliction when the ‘hour of trial’ comes. Thus, we reject four different meanings commonly attached to the phrase tareo ek: ‘removal from’ (Pentecost); ‘keeping outside of’ (Townsend, Feinberg); ‘removal from the midst of’; and ‘Protection issuing in emergence’ (Gundry)” (“Response to the Pretribulational View” in The Rapture: Pre-, Mid-, or Post-Tribulational [Grand Rapids, MI: Academic Books, 1984], p. 97).

7 Oswald T. Allis, Prophecy and the Church (Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1945, 47), pp. 213-214.

8 Hal Lindsey, There’s a New World Coming, pp. 59, 61.

9 William Hendriksen, More Than Conquerors (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1982 [1940]), p. 111.

10 E. Schuyler English, chairman of the editorial revision committee, The New Scofield Study Bible (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson, 1967 [1989]), p, 1460, footnote 1.

11 Premillennialists of course will point to Revelation 20 and argue that it conclusively proves Premillennialism. To our Premillennial brothers we ask: “What makes more sense as a method of interpretation? Should we take one passage in an apocalyptic book that is full of non-literal symbolism, literally as a chronology of the second coming (and so on), even though this interpretation contradicts several clear passages in the gospels and epistles? Or, should we interpret Revelation 20 in light of the clear teaching we find in the rest of the New Testament?” Obviously we should follow the latter procedure. Revelation 20 is not a description of a literal thousand year reign of Christ on earth after the second coming. It rather summarizes the period from Christ’s first advent to the second advent. Jesus comes to earth and by His death and resurrection binds Satan so that the gospel can go forth to all nations. Christ as King of kings and Lord of lords rules at the right hand of God. The saints participate in this rule. The first resurrection is not a bodily resurrection but refers to regeneration (cf. Jn. 5:24-25; 3:14; Eph. 2:5-6; Col. 2:13-14). In Revelation 20 John describes the spiritual reign of the church during the millennium (the one thousand years represent a very long period of time between the first and second coming of Christ). The church rules from heaven in the sense that Christians positionally are in Christ seated on the throne with Him in heaven (cf. Eph. 2:6; Rev. 3:21). The church receives all its authority from Christ who rules from heaven, yet Christians must apply His word to every area of life on earth. Christians rule with Christ and reign over the world by preaching the gospel, teaching and discipling the nations. In understanding Revelation 20 we must let Scripture interpret Scripture. One can only understand Revelation 20 if he uses the clear historical and didactic portions of Scripture to understand John’s symbolic language.

12 Oswald T. Allis, Prophecy and the Church (Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1974), pp. 184-185. “Titus 2:13 is often used to support this view, but it is not speaking of the two comings of Christ, but of one event, ‘the blessed hope and glorious appearing our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.’ This is one event because one article (‘the’) covers the two nouns (‘hope’ and ‘appearing’) joined by ‘and’ (and so it is in the original Greek)” (W. Fred Rice, “The Not-So-Secret Rapture,” in New Horizons [Willow Grove, PA: The Committee on Christian Education of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, July 1999], p. 19).

13 Paul D. Feinberg, “The Case For The Pretribulation Rapture Position,” in Ben Chapman ed., The Rapture: Pre-, Mid-, or Post-Tribulational? (Grand Rapids, MI: Academic Books, 1984), p. 80.

14 J. Marcellus Kik, An Eschatology of Victory (Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1971), pp. 60-61.

Copyright © Brian Schwertley, Lansing, MI, 1999

[Kali]

Well then be carefull of those who want you to beleive their is a fly away rapture.



It's happened before in scripture...it can happen again.



What happened before?.......................a rapture? where.
please do tell.


Sure.

Here's scripture on two saints who were chosen to escape death in their lifetime. Enoch and Elijah.

(Some say they will be the two witnesses in Revelation which just might be)

"Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2 Kings 2:11)

Then Enoch...

"And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him." (Genesis 5:24)

"By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him..." (Hebrews 11:5)

There's two raptures for you.

A rapture = a taking away, alive, to be with God.

[7th trump]

Well then be carefull of those who want you to beleive their is a fly away rapture.



It's happened before in scripture...it can happen again.



What happened before?.......................a rapture? where.
please do tell.


Sure.

Here's scripture on two saints who were chosen to escape death in their lifetime. Enoch and Elijah.

(Some say they will be the two witnesses in Revelation which just might be)

"Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2 Kings 2:11)

Then Enoch...

"And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him." (Genesis 5:24)

"By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him..." (Hebrews 11:5)

There's two raptures for you.

A rapture = a taking away, alive, to be with God.



Rapture? Those are not rapture. Heck even Jesus and Moses were transfigured.
At a twinkle of an eye we are changed as well....................so what!
The rapture as you think isnt going to happen. Even Jesus says to beleive it not because its not him but the fake christ.

[StackerKen]

I think would have to agree with Kali on this one.

It does seem that Enoch and Elijah were both raptured

[greenbear]

In order to understand the reason for the splintering of Christianity one must understand the confusion that comes from a failure to distinguish between Israel and the Church. Pay attention to who is being addressed. If a Christian does not read the scriptures with that view in mind they will end up with confusion, especially regarding eschatology. If the identities of Israel and the Church are merged, or overlapped, it is not possible to understand end-time events; the Church will think that it is physical Israel, so it will interpret prophetic passages, dealing with Israel, as applying to them. Recognizing that God has chosen to deal with mankind in different ways at different times throughout history is key to understanding the Bible. This especially applies to end-time prophesy.

The study of end-time things is not a matter of coming up with a single verse, or a few verses to support a theory. One's study has to encompass the whole counsel of God. As with other theological subjects, each individual Christian doesn't have to invent fire all over again in his lifetime. Knowledge and understanding of the Bible is deepened and strengthened over time by faithful men. There is a body of work of orthodox scholarship to draw upon.

At the close of the Dark Ages, the protestant reformers moved away from the RCC's stranglehold on the word of God, and made it available to Christians in their own language and shortly thereafter the printing press was invented, and that changed everything. They endeavored to adopt a literal interpretation of the Bible, which the RCC would not abide. Though the lives of many faithful Christian's were lost in the ensuing persecutions, God defeated his enemies at that time. The Bible was now in the languages that men actually spoke and became available to them. The ancient and true doctrine of salvation though grace by faith alone was rekindled, and men and women were released from the bondage of darkness.

The reformers fell short in one key area, however, and that was the failure to interpret prophetic passages with the same literal discipline they strove to apply to other areas of theology. In point of fact, they failed to completely cut the ties with that false religious system, just as the children of Israel failed to completely rid the promised land of the nations that inhabited it. Their disobedience resulted in apostasy, they worshiped the strange gods of their neighbors and God says they ended up being worse than those he commanded them to rid their land of. The trials, tribulations, and failures of Israel are an example to the Church.

Men like Sir Robert Anderson rekindled interest in end-time prophecy in the Church. Many others have followed his lead, endeavoring to understand this complex subject by employing a literal interpretation of the prophetic portions of Bible. When one interprets the Bible literally, the only philosophy of interpretation that fits is Dispensationalism. Without learning the basics of Dispensationalism, a child of God will be hindered in his understanding of the Bible. The book is being slowly unsealed, God has increased knowledge of end-time events. In Daniel 12:4 we are told that the understanding of end-time prophesy will increase in "the time of the end". The book of Daniel is integral to understanding end-time events.

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Don't rely on a message board to educate you about the end-times. Study the Bible, and find good teachers, that's why Christ gave the gift of teaching to HIS Church. Ask for discernment. Keep in mind that no human being is perfect, but also look for fruit. Read your King James Bible every day. It is a Christian's spiritual sustenance.

[philo beddoe]

In order to understand the reason for the splintering of Christianity one must understand the confusion that comes from a failure to distinguish between Israel and the Church. Pay attention to who is being addressed. If a Christian does not read the scriptures with that view in mind they will end up with confusion, especially regarding eschatology. If the identities of Israel and the Church are merged, or overlapped, it is not possible to understand end-time events; the Church will think that it is physical Israel, so it will interpret prophetic passages, dealing with Israel, as applying to them. Recognizing that God has chosen to deal with mankind in different ways at different times throughout history is key to understanding the Bible. This especially applies to end-time prophesy.

The study of end-time things is not a matter of coming up with a single verse, or a few verses. One's study has to encompass the whole counsel of God. As with other theological subjects, each individual Christian doesn't have to invent fire all over again in his lifetime. Knowledge and understanding of the Bible is deepened and strengthened over time by faithful men. There is a body of work of orthodox scholarship to draw upon.

At the close of the Dark Ages, the protestant reformers moved away from the RCC's stranglehold on the word of God, and made it available to Christians in their own language and shortly thereafter the printing press was invented, and that changed everything. They endeavored to adopt a literal interpretation of the Bible, which the RCC would not abide. Though the lives of many faithful Christian's were lost in the ensuing persecutions, God defeated his enemies at that time. The Bible was now in the languages that men actually spoke and became available to them. The ancient and true doctrine of faith though grace by faith alone was rekindled, and men and women were released from the bondage of darkness.

The reformers fell short in one key area, however, and that was the failure to interpret prophetic passages with the same literal discipline they strove to apply to other areas of theology. In point of fact, they failed to completely cut the ties with that false religious system, just as the children of Israel failed to completely rid the promised land of the nations that inhabited it. Their disobedience resulted in apostasy, they worshiped the strange gods of their neighbors and God says they ended up being worse than those he commanded them to rid their land of. The trials, tribulations, and failures of Israel are an example to the Church.

Men like Sir Robert Anderson rekindled interest in end-time prophecy in the Church. Many others have followed his lead, endeavoring to understand this complex subject by employing a literal interpretation of the prophetic portions of Bible. When one interprets the Bible literally, the only philosophy of interpretation that fits is Dispensationalism. Without learning the basics of Dispensationalism, a child of God will be hindered in his understanding of the Bible. The book is being slowly unsealed, God has increased knowledge of end-time events. In Daniel 12:4 we are told that the understanding of end-time prophesy will increase in "the time of the end". The book of Daniel is integral to understanding end-time events.

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Don't rely on a message board to educate you about the end-times. Study the Bible, and find good teachers, that's why Christ gave the gift of teaching to HIS Church. Ask for discernment. Keep in mind that no human being is perfect, but also look for fruit. Read your King James Bible every day. It is a Christian's spiritual sustenance.



Gee, how many quotes from Christ were in that passage?

[7th trump]

In order to understand the reason for the splintering of Christianity one must understand the confusion that comes from a failure to distinguish between Israel and the Church. Pay attention to who is being addressed. If a Christian does not read the scriptures with that view in mind they will end up with confusion, especially regarding eschatology. If the identities of Israel and the Church are merged, or overlapped, it is not possible to understand end-time events; the Church will think that it is physical Israel, so it will interpret prophetic passages, dealing with Israel, as applying to them. Recognizing that God has chosen to deal with mankind in different ways at different times throughout history is key to understanding the Bible. This especially applies to end-time prophesy.

The study of end-time things is not a matter of coming up with a single verse, or a few verses. One's study has to encompass the whole counsel of God. As with other theological subjects, each individual Christian doesn't have to invent fire all over again in his lifetime. Knowledge and understanding of the Bible is deepened and strengthened over time by faithful men. There is a body of work of orthodox scholarship to draw upon.

At the close of the Dark Ages, the protestant reformers moved away from the RCC's stranglehold on the word of God, and made it available to Christians in their own language and shortly thereafter the printing press was invented, and that changed everything. They endeavored to adopt a literal interpretation of the Bible, which the RCC would not abide. Though the lives of many faithful Christian's were lost in the ensuing persecutions, God defeated his enemies at that time. The Bible was now in the languages that men actually spoke and became available to them. The ancient and true doctrine of faith though grace by faith alone was rekindled, and men and women were released from the bondage of darkness.

The reformers fell short in one key area, however, and that was the failure to interpret prophetic passages with the same literal discipline they strove to apply to other areas of theology. In point of fact, they failed to completely cut the ties with that false religious system, just as the children of Israel failed to completely rid the promised land of the nations that inhabited it. Their disobedience resulted in apostasy, they worshiped the strange gods of their neighbors and God says they ended up being worse than those he commanded them to rid their land of. The trials, tribulations, and failures of Israel are an example to the Church.

Men like Sir Robert Anderson rekindled interest in end-time prophecy in the Church. Many others have followed his lead, endeavoring to understand this complex subject by employing a literal interpretation of the prophetic portions of Bible. When one interprets the Bible literally, the only philosophy of interpretation that fits is Dispensationalism. Without learning the basics of Dispensationalism, a child of God will be hindered in his understanding of the Bible. The book is being slowly unsealed, God has increased knowledge of end-time events. In Daniel 12:4 we are told that the understanding of end-time prophesy will increase in "the time of the end". The book of Daniel is integral to understanding end-time events.

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Don't rely on a message board to educate you about the end-times. Study the Bible, and find good teachers, that's why Christ gave the gift of teaching to HIS Church. Ask for discernment. Keep in mind that no human being is perfect, but also look for fruit. Read your King James Bible every day. It is a Christian's spiritual sustenance.




But that same message board you say not to rely to educate ourselves about the end times is adequate to spread the rapture lies right green?

[greenbear]

When I read a couple of fiftybagger's posts, I was dumbfounded. I could not believe the lies he published. How could he read this thread (or did he?) and come up with those insults? I wondered if there was some other connection here. Is fiftybagger a close friend or relative of greenbear? Scrolling down, I see a comment that fiftybagger is the husband of greenbear. Oh... that would make sense. Now for confirmation.

Tell me fiftybagger... are you the husband of greenbear?
If so, I see why you are so blinded and why you made the following false accusations. Either way, I expect to see your apology forthwith. What you did is shameful!




In general people who have no argument have to resort to other things such as slander, character assassination, lies, half-truths and distraction. That is in essence what 7th trump and Spectrism have done.

Try reading the thread friend. Maybe if you actually read the words instead of hearing third person what you want to hear, you might learn something. I began this thread to investigate the events of today in light of biblical history. I know that we can learn much by such a study. Right from the start, greenbear began to derail this thread with pre-trib rapture stuff foisted on us as if it was gospel.


Gb: Western Christians may suffer persecution just like Christians throughout the world have suffered, and are suffering now. Or the Lord could come for his Church in the next moment. We just do not know. The prophetic timeclock has been stopped during the Church Age, and will not start up again until after the Church is raptured off this earth. At that point, the Jews will sign a peace treaty with the man of sin.


BTW- fifty? There is a neat little thing called quoting sources. If you select the text and click the quote symbol, it becomes clear who wrote what. Your post was atrocious with mixed quotes.

In this quote, gb says we just don't know... yet goes on to KNOW that the "prophetic clock" will not start until the church is raptured off the earth. Huh? What buffonery! At the arrival of Messiah, prophecy ceases.



Greenbear has done a thorough job of presenting the pre-trib view. Has she been met with well reasoned Scriptural arguments and views? Hardly.

Try reading the thread. Then come back and exercise some intellectual honesty.


She's been called a Jezebel

You are either a liar or a fool. Where did you get that? You have been played by your wife(?) and been run up the emotional flagpole. No such thing was done. The only reference to Jezebel was a verse I posted because another participant related his view of the endtime church. I DO like to post the associated verses to keep people informed what we are talking about. BUT they have to read the thread- which you did NOT do. I find it odd that greenbear applied that verse to herself when NOBODY else did! Protesteth thou too much?




, a false teacher

Hmmm... when you teach something that is false, what does that make you?



, a deceiver,

Now I don't recall anyone being called that, but I can see some techniques used here that are less than honorable.


a hissy fit thrower;

Finally you hit one! Absolutely! You deny it???



all for rationally proposing a view of the Scriptures regarding prophecy that can in no way be regarded as heretical or unbiblical.

No... for KNOWING what is not known and for teaching what is questionable.... and getting emotionally charged over being questioned on these things. Red flags go up for me when someone KNOWS and insists that others follow them blindly. In response I posted MANY biblical references to question those things.



Come on people, you can do better than that. At least propose some reasoned arguments from the Scriptures rather attacking the person.

YOU came onto this thread and posted no support for the topic while attacking two people here. What is one called when they slander others for what they themselves do?



You are doing a better job of convincing people of the soundness of the pre-trib view than I could. All they have to do is look at the FRUIT of the critics to see how rotten it is. You can at least pretend to be Christ-like. You might get more followers that way.....

Is that your game? Pretending? OK. Got it.



That may be your belief, but you have provided absolutely no Biblical basis for that belief. Pagan gods are just that, gods. The Bible never confuses the things of the world that the flesh lusts after with gods. You are mistaken in this. 2018, Looks like another date setter to me. Date setters all have one thing in common, perfect failure:

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

I listed the things that we spend time and money on. I listed the things that come between God and man. I called these idols and false gods. You actually challenge that???!!! Amazing! Have you ever read the bible?

A date-setter. Tell me... what date did I set? If you want to slander me, let's have some specifics. I would be glad to discuss ALL of these issues in a reasoned manner. If you insist on being petulant, it will not be pleasant for you.



Spectrism said:
"There will be no "pre-tribulation" rapture. After much study, I have come to believe that there will be at best a mid-trib rapture."

fb: At best? You don't sound very certain. Perhaps more study is required.

I don't KNOW it all like you. As for date-setting, please reconcile these posts. I clearly state what I THINK and why. I do not insist that others believe me. Questioning is fine. Truth is a wonderful pathway.



Spectrism said:
"The cult of the pre-trib rapturists have misapplied scripture and ignored parts."

fb: Cult? Do you know what a cult is? It is a group blindly following a leader and not being Bereans and personally searching the Scriptures themselves. The Catholic Church could fairly be called a cult, people who subscribe to the pre-trib view could at worst be called a school of thought.

For years I had no stand on the timing of the rapture.... mostly because I had not studied it to arrive at reasonable conclusions. I had heard through various sources: church pastors, books, Left Behind series, speakers, radio, etc... that the church would be raptured before the tribulation. I accepted it without investment. One day I was challenged to look into it. I began to study the bible with the intent of finding the truth. What I found made the pre-trib rapture look false. There were too many things that just did not add up.

And when I see the large numbers of big names pushing this rapture concept, YES- it sure looks like a cult. Just look at the fight you and gb are putting up here. School of thought? Not when it is emotionally embraced WITHOUT scripture.



The Gospels do not teach about the rapture because it was a mystery when Paul revealed it. This verse has nothing to do with the rapture:

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Methinks you ain't got a clue.


Spectrism said: "Now, there will be a "catching up", but it will be at a specified time: at the LAST TRUMP.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
-----------------------------------------------
fb: Ahhh, the famous, or shall I say infamous last trump argument. Unfortunately for its proponents, John's Revelation was written decades later. So this verse is referring to a last trump, that we know for sure. But we also know for sure that it cannot be referring to a trump in John's revelation because Paul was teaching them about something they could refer to and John had not written yet. So it was clearly not referring to what John wrote.

That is a juvenile argument. Of course Paul is not referencing a future writing. Did you even for a moment stop to think that all the scriptures are referencing the WORD of God? Do you think that Paul just made up his writings? Have you heard of the Holy Spirit?


Spectrism said: "In this, I cannot see any other way.... at the moment. I cannot think that the new age Amerikan will be protected while the rest of the Church is being tortured in various places- India, Africa, China, etc. "
----------------------------
fb: That may be your view, but it is nothing to base an eschatological position on. God can choose to do things any way he wants to, and our conceptions of fairness are skewed and flawed:

12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

You and gb like to throw the "eschatological" word around. Quite frankly, all I see you two throwing around is scatological.

My point was that the Church around the world has been suffering great tribulation. There are more martyrs inthe last century than throughout history. How small-minded of the western church to think that there will be a pre-trib rapture so that we won't have to suffer. Seeing men and women martyred for Messiah in China, Africa, India, etc... has NOTHING to do with your silly "eschatological" arguments. It is happening now.

And you had to gratuitously put another slander in there with a verse that could be applied to anybody.... as if you alone have the right answers.



When I read a couple of fiftybagger's posts, I was dumbfounded. I could not believe the lies he published. How could he read this thread (or did he?) and come up with those insults? I wondered if there was some other connection here. Is fiftybagger a close friend or relative of greenbear? Scrolling down, I see a comment that fiftybagger is the husband of greenbear. Oh... that would make sense. Now for confirmation.


Tell me fiftybagger... are you the husband of greenbear?
If so, I see why you are so blinded and why you made the following false accusations. Either way, I expect to see your apology forthwith. What you did is shameful!


Try reading the thread friend. Maybe if you actually read the words instead of hearing third person what you want to hear, you might learn something. I began this thread to investigate the events of today in light of biblical history. I know that we can learn much by such a study. Right from the start, greenbear began to derail this thread with pre-trib rapture stuff foisted on us as if it was gospel.


Try reading the thread. Then come back and exercise some intellectual honesty.


You are either a liar or a fool. Where did you get that? You have been played by your wife(?) and been run up the emotional flagpole. No such thing was done. The only reference to Jezebel was a verse I posted because another participant related his view of the endtime church. I DO like to post the associated verses to keep people informed what we are talking about. BUT they have to read the thread- which you did NOT do. I find it odd that greenbear applied that verse to herself when NOBODY else did! Protesteth thou too much?

You have completely lost control of yourself. You've slung lies, false accusations, and insults throughout this thread. Fiftybagger read most of the thread the night before he first posted but he's on call, he had to get back to work. The next night before he posted he caught up on the thread and planned on commenting on the entire thread but got called to work so he posted what he had. He kinda saw things my way, you know, we're married, live together, have the same views, thank the Lord.

You knew full well that fiftybagger was my husband. His banning on GIM was discussed in the Christian group forum and you participated in that private group thread. Furthermore, about a month ago, shortly before GIM closed I emailed you a PM from a GIM mod with inside information on the rational for my husband's banning. You responded thanking me for the information. Yet, you wonder then are completely shocked to find that Fiftybagger is my husband!!! I don't usually come right out and call someone a liar, but I'll make an exception here. You are a liar. You will say and do just about anything to give the appearance that you are right.

With no proof whatsoever, you call Fiftybagger a fool or a liar. You have mocked, abused, and slandered every person on this thread who holds a different view than you. And over what? The timing of the return of Jesus Christ for his Church!

I've been on Christian forums in the past where a man likes me just fine until I disagree with him and have better arguments. All of a sudden, the argument is derailed by his comments that a women shouldn't teach, as if were attending a church service in Corinth or something. Another favorite ultimate debate winner for some men is that Eve was first deceived, so it follows that he must be right and I must be wrong, by definition. The heavy artillery usually comes later: I'm Jezebel, teaching false doctrine, leading God's people to idols, or some such thing. You don't mess around with the small stuff, you get right to the Jezebel argument. You already posted Eze 14 on my Immanency thread about introducing idols and abominations in the Temple, the chapter talks about how the Lord will judge the false prophets. You are debating, if that's what you want to call it, with a woman. Obviously, the Jezebel quote was for my benefit. It fits in perfectly with your MO.

Your behavior on this thread has been despicable. You are the person who should be ashamed. I'm done with you.

[7th trump]

Why dont you and fifty just leave. Theres all kinds of proof you spread lies. Geewiz you even bring in other authors material to support what Jesus himself told you not to do which is to not let any man fool you into beleiving lies. but what do you do? Kick Gods Word right out the door and replace it with trash.

Leave will you and your filthy trash.

[Spectrism]

You have completely lost control of yourself. You've slung lies, false accusations, and insults throughout this thread.

Ummmmyeeeah... I have heard that one from you already. Every time I challenge it and ask for evidence, SILENCE erupts. It should be easy. So who is the liar?



Fiftybagger read most of the thread the night before he first posted but he's on call, he had to get back to work. The next night before he posted he caught up on the thread and planned on commenting on the entire thread but got called to work so he posted what he had. He kinda saw things my way, you know, we're married, live together, have the same views, thank the Lord.

Thanks for the personal woes story... am I supposed to do something with this valuable information?


You knew full well that fiftybagger was my husband. His banning on GIM was discussed in the Christian group forum and you participated in that private group thread. Furthermore, about a month ago, shortly before GIM closed I emailed you a PM from a GIM mod with inside information on the rational for my husband's banning. You responded thanking me for the information. Yet, you wonder then are completely shocked to find that Fiftybagger is my husband!!! I don't usually come right out and call someone a liar, but I'll make an exception here. You are a liar. You will say and do just about anything to give the appearance that you are right.

Sorry to deflate your sense of self-importance but I really have not kept track of you or your husband. I had no investment in your little story and it was not retained in my memory as something I needed to hold for the rest of my life. If what you say is true- about the postings on GIM and the emails (and I don't doubt that)... all I can say to you is I had no personal interest in KNOWING you two and an email message months(?) ago is as vaporous as cheap vodka on a hot frying pan. You want to call me a liar because you "know" what I "know"? Your character is made clear. Another hissy fit. As for my "surprise"... well, yes... but my questions were only because in this thread someone pointed out the relationship and I did not want to assume that was correct. You see... I like to challenge the source directly instead of assuming things the way you do.


With no proof whatsoever, you call Fiftybagger a fool or a liar.

Again you distort the truth.... which is a lie. I said that given the facts, he was EITHER a fool or a liar. He was either a fool for being suckered into a false argument by you or a liar for being a willing accomplice to your lies. Shame on you for setting your husband up that way.



You have mocked, abused, and slandered every person on this thread who holds a different view than you. And over what? The timing of the return of Jesus Christ for his Church!

No. I stood my ground against an emotional tirade of false teaching.



I've been on Christian forums in the past where a man likes me just fine until I disagree with him and have better arguments. All of a sudden, the argument is derailed by his comments that a women shouldn't teach, as if were attending a church service in Corinth or something.

Hmmm... so you have been warned of this pattern before. Not surprising. Your emotional hissy fits make you unable to hold reasoned conversations.



Another favorite ultimate debate winner for some men is that Eve was first deceived, so it follows that he must be right and I must be wrong, by definition. The heavy artillery usually comes later: I'm Jezebel, teaching false doctrine, leading God's people to idols, or some such thing. You don't mess around with the small stuff, you get right to the Jezebel argument.

You betray yourself frequently. In your blind rage, you applied the Jezebel title to yourself. I already explained that you were not involved in that conversation. For some reason, you want to keep injecting yourself into the role of Jezebel. NOW I am starting to wonder about all the smoke.




You already posted Eze 14 on my Immanency thread about introducing idols and abominations in the Temple, the chapter talks about how the Lord will judge the false prophets. You are debating, if that's what you want to call it, with a woman. Obviously, the Jezebel quote was for my benefit. It fits in perfectly with your MO.

Wow... you really think highly of yourself. Thanks for revealing your true nature to all those who thought you were OK.



Your behavior on this thread has been despicable. You are the person who should be ashamed. I'm done with you.

LOL... no more hissy fits? Come on... you wouldn't be just kidding would you? I invited a party for those who would like to investigate the history of bible events in relation to current events. As soon as you come to the party, you start throwing your pre-trib rapture dispensationalism all over the place. The thread was derailed. And then you have the gall to accuse me of being despicable. LOL... that is rich.

[StackerKen]

Why dont you and fifty just leave. Theres all kinds of proof you spread lies. Geewiz you even bring in other authors material to support what Jesus himself told you not to do which is to not let any man fool you into beleiving lies. but what do you do? Kick Gods Word right out the door and replace it with trash.

Leave will you and your filthy trash.


Not Cool 7th

and So Not Christlike.

You make Christians look bad. and you cause division.

What does Jesus say about that?

[StackerKen]

This is really sad. :(

It pains me to see this. :-[





Most Christians that i know, have always said that this issue was not something to divide over.

I wonder why some here are having so much trouble with that.

[Kali]

I see Greenbear as someone taking the time to explain her views and the two others attacking her.

It's not even about her view anymore or maybe never was.

I sense evil, not the Spirit of God.

[7th trump]

Why dont you and fifty just leave. Theres all kinds of proof you spread lies. Geewiz you even bring in other authors material to support what Jesus himself told you not to do which is to not let any man fool you into beleiving lies. but what do you do? Kick Gods Word right out the door and replace it with trash.

Leave will you and your filthy trash.


Not Cool 7th

and So Not Christlike.

You make Christians look bad. and you cause division.

What does Jesus say about that?

I do not make christians look bad........................greenie is the culprit for that.
Does not the Bible say to pluck thy eye out if it sees evil and cut thy hand off if it does evel? (well something to that effect)
We are not talking about a physical eye or hand here. This is refering to the body that is made up of Christians as a whole.
If you see or know of evil doings Gods says to get rid of the problem. Plucking thy eye out is casting the evil doers out of the church. They do not of Gods will.
The division is set from greenie and her fifty bagger husband spewing lies as if its written in the Bible.
I'm gonna look for the scripture tonight (time permitting tonight) where God himself says: "I'm against those who teach his children to fly to save the souls". This is addressing the fly away "rapture" doctrine Ken. Yea thats right Ken, the fly away doctrine is a little over a hundred years old and it was addressed thousands of years ago by God himself.
In Revelations Christ says many will come in His name as false prophets........well when you claim you are Christians you are in essence coming in Christ name. None yet have claimed to be Christ himself, but thousands come in the name of Christ as Christians.
Greenie comes in Christ name by calling herself a Christian but yet spreads lies that are not in the Bible. And God is against her and her husband for such lies.
They are both going to get their asses handed to them by God himself very soon IF they dont repent and humble themselves.

[StackerKen]

What evil has greenbear done???


She quotes bible passages to back her statements.

Pre trib rapture teaching is NOT heresy

Get that though your head

7th I think you may have said a few things that are not in the bible yourself.

and when asked for scripture to back it...you failed to deliver.

Most recently I asked about the "5 months" statement that you have made over and over.

Show me.

[7th trump]

This is really sad. :(

It pains me to see this. :-[





Most Christians that i know, have always said that this issue was not something to divide over.

I wonder why some here are having so much trouble with that.

Not something to divide over?
You've got to be kidding me ken!

This is serious when the outcome of this rapture "fly away" doctrine lie jeopardizes the very existence of those who beleive it.
(Most Christians think just because they beleive in Jesus they are saved. Its not true. How about the murderer who beleives in Christ? If the murderer is found guilty in Heaven of his crime he sent to the other side of the gulf to wait destruction. They doent get an appeal ken......................they get destruction.)
They will get sent to the other side of the gulf where they do not put on a uncorruptable body, but a body that is perishable.
God says to " fear not those who can kill the flesh, but fear the one who can perish the soul".
So why go there?
You are setting yourself up to be turned to ashes from within.

[StackerKen]

Matter of Fact 7th, I don't think you should be making any statements about what the bible says...unless you can show where it says it.

[7th trump]

What evil has greenbear done???


She quotes bible passages to back her statements.

Pre trib teaching is NOT heresy

Get that though your head

7th I think you may have said a few things that are not in the bible yourself.

and when asked for scripture to back it...you failed to deliver.

Most recently I asked about the "5 months" statement that you have made over and over.

Show me.



Hey Ken have a little patience will you. I'm working on the passages Ok!
Or if you feel like I'm not quite adequite for your impatience then screw you. I dont need you to tell me whats in the Bible. I know!
I will get them when I get them, but you will get them.

[7th trump]

Matter of Fact 7th, I don't think you should be making any statements about what the bible says...unless you can show where it says it.

Go camp with greenie and her lies. You seem to kiss her ass anyway.
If you want to beleive theres a rapture (and you do) then theres nothing I or anybody can do about it.

[Spectrism]

What evil has greenbear done???


She quotes bible passages to back her statements.

Pre trib teaching is NOT heresy

Get that though your head

7th I think you may have said a few things that are not in the bible yourself.

and when asked for scripture to back it...you failed to deliver.

Most recently I asked about the "5 months" statement that you have made over and over.

Show me.




Not to get in the middle of that conversation you are having with 7th Trumpster... as I have aked him some questions too and gotten no answers...

but...

There are some things that gb did which could be less than honorable. I would suspect that clouded vision would explain some misunderstandings. I think she got riled by some key words and applied them to herself with indignant fury. Some of them were ignited by 7th, but I think as soon as I used the word "cult" she bristled with pious rejection. I think my first use was a catch phrase "rapture cult" and it was meant in a harmless way. I even explained how I was attacked years ago with the same terms.

Another term that she grabbed onto was IDOL. For some reason that one had a magnetic hold on her.

Another out of left field was Jezebel. I was stunned when she accused me of calling her Jezebel. That side conversation with G2Rad(? I think) was just a noted reference about a church in Rev.

After a while, you begin to assemble a profile on someone who alights to certain things. I have dealt with psychotics before and they seem to always surprise me. I expect people to have reasoned logical discussions but sometimes that becomes impossible.

I had hoped that 7th would turn down the rhetoric. I think I got associated with some of that when I said I agreed with alot of his things in the beginning. I actually disagree with alot of his things too... escpecially the condemnation of those who are ignorant of truth. Ignorance can be cured.


I see Kali claiming I attacked gb and I am evil. Hmmmm.... I guess that qualifies as an attack by Kali on me. Oh, dear. What shall I do? :P

One further thing Ken. The effort to promote peace is noble. But lukewarm is not holding to truth. Walking the line is not easy. Sometimes there is no line in the middle to walk. Truth denied is sin applied.

[StackerKen]

Hey Ken have a little patience will you. I'm working on the passages Ok!
Or if you feel like I'm not quite adequite for your impatience then screw you. I dont need you to tell me whats in the Bible. I know!
I will get them when I get them, but you will get them.


I'm not telling you whats in the bible....its the other way around.
You have been telling me and others what is in the bible...with out passages to back it up.



I try to be fair and kind to everyone.

Even you.


I try not say things that are disrespectful

Sometimes it's hard. Im still in this sinful body.

But I want to be obedient to my lord. So I try.


But you know what 7th?

Put up or shut up

[StackerKen]

Spectrism;
So you agree that teaching the rapture is Not heresy? (and not cultist)

and we should not be condemning others over different veiw on this?

[Spectrism]

Spectrism;
So you agree that teaching the rapture is Not heresy? (and not cultist)

and we should not be condemning others over different veiw on this?


I am not interested in calling someone a heretic. I think there are many misunderstandings of biblical things and ALL of us at some point lack understanding. If we were to execute everyone who ever misunderstood a part of the bible then we would be like GIM2.

No... I think there should be plenty of room provided for open discussion on things. Even in disagreements, we need to allow "processing time". To think that one person can spit out a doctrine and another will instantly embody it is ludicrous. I once had a pastor who tried that on me. You should have seen him go ballistic when I told him that he was not my God.

But one who claims to be THE authority and expert teacher MUST be held to higher standards. While I am just a simple laggard, I have spent some time looking into issues and have found some truths. Certain behaviors and certain words trigger red flags for me. As dull-witted as I am, there is a blessing of spiritual discernment which keeps me out of trouble. In the promise of Messiah to the Church in Philadelphia, I see that as Him keeping His people from the temptations that would overwhelm us. Time and again He has saved me from that trial.

Another thought I will run by you. Nobody can pluck the sheep from His hand. True. But will He stop them from jumping out?

[StackerKen]

7th
It has been clear for a while(back on GIM) that you get some of your ideas from Arnold Murray.

Im gonna come out and say it.

I think that Arnold Murray may be a False teacher. and a false profit.

He is a racist

He makes predictions and sets dates...that do not come true.

He regularly calls others liars, deceivers, idiots, losers, etc. Murray is full of quick, condescending remarks about anyone who disagrees with him. Unfortunately, it is rubbing off on his followers and this is particularly troublesome since there is a recording of him pulling a gun on someone who disagreed with him in a teaching setting. This is not showing grace, mercy, and love that Jesus Christ Himself preached.






typos

[StackerKen]

Thanks for the reply



Another thought I will run by you. Nobody can pluck the sheep from His hand. True. But will He stop them from jumping out?


I like a saying that one my teachers has.... He says
"We can slip on-board, But we can't fall overboard"

I believe that if a person is Truly saved. they are saved forever and can not become unsaved.

If they fall away....they were never truly saved.




More typos

[Spectrism]

Thanks for the reply



Another thought I will run by you. Nobody can pluck the sheep from His hand. True. But will He stop them from jumping out?


I like a saying that one my teachers has.... He says
"We can slip on-board, But we can't fall overboard"

I believe that if a person is Truly saved. they are saved forever and can not become unsaved.

If they fall away....they were never truly saved.

More typos


I am not so sure about that one Ken.

Upon salvation, do we lose the ability to choose? Do we lose the ability to reject God?

This is another heavy discussion which has support on both sides from many places. I think there is one truth and there is probably enough guidance in the scriptures to find it. Every time I try to think once-saved, always saved, other verses pop into my mind that give me warning.

Think about the Israelites leaving Egypt. They were granted free passage and even wealth bestowed upon them to leave. But they could have chosen to stay in Egypt, right? Of the family of Noah... they could have jumped out of the great ark.... or not... didn't Noah seal it?

And once saved, we receive the mark of the King. His brand is on us. We are no longer our own. Anyway... I have heard good arguments boths sides.

ed-
Gen 7:15 And they come in unto Noah, unto the ark, two by two of all the flesh in which is a living spirit;
Gen 7:16 and they that are coming in, male and female of all flesh, have come in as God hath commanded him, and Jehovah doth close it for him.

[StackerKen]

I agree spectrism....Me too.




While looking through scriptures I just now found this interesting passage.


These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.


Lots of interesting things in that passage to ponder.

[StackerKen]

1st he says "
"I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. "

then he says
" Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown"

[Spectrism]

I agree spectrism....Me too.

While looking through scriptures I just now found this interesting passage.

These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.


Lots of interesting things in that passage to ponder.


Him who overcomes
- see this is one of those verses that makes it appear that there is a time during which people can choose to fail.

Perhaps this is just God saying to us- "I know because I am that I am" and we have our parts to do... letting Him do His part.

[7th trump]

7th
It has been clear for a while(back on GIM) that you get some of your ideas from Arnold Murray.

Im gonna come out and say it.

I think that Arnold Murray may be a False teacher. and a false profit.

He is a racist

He makes predictions and sets dates...that do not come true.

He regularly calls others liars, deceivers, idiots, losers, etc. Murray is full of quick, condescending remarks about anyone who disagrees with him. Unfortunately, it is rubbing off on his followers and this is particularly troublesome since there is a recording of him pulling a gun on someone who disagreed with him in a teaching setting. This is not showing grace, mercy, and love that Jesus Christ Himself preached.






typos

What you say about Arnold is what you say about Arnold. I dont have any evidence he didnt pull a gun on anybody as much as I have any evidence he did. For what ever reason if he had to pull a gun. Hes had to pull his shotgun out on a guy who thought he could go onto Arnold property and threaten him because this guy didnt like the way he preached. Do I blame Arnold for protecting himself? Nope not at all. Glad he did it. Proves who he is. How many preachers you know tell you you should not have guns in the house? Do you think I truth these types? No way in hell would do I.
break down my door without identification and reason and your getting mowed down. Plain and simple. Arnold advocates protecting yourself at all times and by any means. He even reads scripture where Gods looks at you as an imbosil for not protecting your self or family.
racist?
No hes not a racist. His church is full of colored people.

He doesnt predict anything. He does inform anyone asking where in Revelations he beleives we are. thats not predicting anything Ken, but carefully watching current event unfold and applying the event to the scripture. Before Putin decided to ramp up military might Arnold from time to time said Russia (RUSH) will attack from the north, just as its written in the Bible. Well Putin since has ramped up millitary might just as the Bible says Russia will. Its even written that the Russian kindom will be overrun and the King will be found in Lime. Well they just discovered Nicholas and his family buried in a bunch of Lime in a basement of an old farm house not to long ago. Thats not predicting any dates, just being observent that God is always true. Dont worry about Russia attacking . Gods does all the fighting. 100lb snowballs will take care of that attempt. Just He does all the fighting in Armegeddon in Jerusalem.
Maybe you should not take the words of a third, fourth or fifth party and read his statements yourself. See you look like a fool now. Didnt do your dilligent study did you. Assuming get you nothing Ken.

As far as calling a spade a spade.....well he certainly doesnt beat around the bush and why should anybody for that matter. hes been preaching for over thirty years and personally read the manuscripts. How many do you know have had the oportunity to see them? Not many.
He broadcasts all the way around the world. Has a huge following from China. Funny how the chineese are moving away from their religion and following the Bible through Arnold's teachings instead of mainstream propaganda ministries. ( just thought I'd throw that in).
Sometimes the truth hurts doesnt it, so get used to it. Arnold is not going to shade the truth with any pity. He does certainly teach with a rod of iron. I'd rather be taught that way than be taught by a one verse charlie preaching the rapture theory.

So do you think ruling with a rod of iron is grace, mercy and love the way its portrayed?
I got news for you. If caught worshipping the antichrist because you are so caught up in the rapture theory theres no mercy. Doesnt matter if you beleive is Jesus and were saved. You were fooled regardless. You were found giving suckle to satans church. Thought it was Christ church (hurry up worshipping me, satan, so I can rapture you away) but found nursing satans church along when the real Christ showed up. You were not faithful to Jesus and nursing along satan church. This will not get you in paradise Ken.
Remember, the days of satan on earth were shortened for the Elects sake. Whats that tell you about the lies satan is going to be pushing.
Have you read where the angels threw the person out of the wedding because he wasnt supposed to be there?
They threw is ass out. No pussyfooting around!

[StackerKen]

7th;
I think I am now being convicted be the Holy spirit.
I know it is wrong to gossip. and I repent. and ask forgiveness.

I think I should not have posted that stuff about Arnold Murray
I don't know anything about him. only what I have read others say about him.
So I will ask you.

Are these statements true?

1st:


He predicted that the war of Armageddon will start on June 8-9, 1985 in "a valley of the Alaskan peninsula."

2nd

One of the several false doctrines of the Shepherd's Chapel is the teaching that all people had an existence prior to being here on earth in what is called the first earth age. This aligns with the “gap theory” which tries to make the Bible conform to evolution versus it truly being created in six 24 hour days just as Genesis, in its plainest reading says. These theories are what attacks the foundation of the Bible and causes it to lose its authority not only in the secular world, but with professing Christians as well. The Shepherd's Chapel teaches that we were created in the first earth age, a time before the fall, where we existed in the form of soul bodies. The problem with this is that there is no Biblical support for this position. In fact, the Bible contradicts this soul-body idea.

3rd


Two additional distinguishing and erroneous doctrines of the Shepherd's Chapel are known as the Serpent Seed doctrine and the Kenite doctrine. These are intimately related. The Serpent Seed doctrine is the teaching that in the Garden of Eden, the serpent (the devil) had sexual relations with Eve. The result was that she bore Cain. The descendents of Cain are called Kenites. Abel, however, is the result of Adam and Eve having relations.

Arnold Murray, the pastor of the Shepherd's Chapel, is the primary advocate of these doctrines which he adamantly teaches and which his followers have adopted as Biblical truth.

4th


The next problematic issue with this church is its denial of the Trinity. The Bible teaches that there is one God in three persons: Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Shepherd's Chapel teaches modalism, the idea that God is one person who took different forms or modes. The Christian church long condemned modalism as contrary to sound biblical theology.

The Shepherd's Chapel is at best a very aberrant Christian church and at worst, a cult. Is denial of the Trinity enough to make a group non-Christian? Yes it is. If Murray continues to deny the Trinity, that God is three distinct persons -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, then this would cast great doubt upon Murray as a proper Bible teacher.



I do not know if this stuff is true...and again I should not have posted that stuff about Arnold.

Im asking you if it is true.

[StackerKen]

and 7th

I trust this source and found all this.
here

http://www.equip.org/articles/arnold-murray-and-the-shepherd-s-chapel



A teacher who has recently become popular over television is a man named Arnold Murray of the Shepherd’s Chapel in Gravette, Arkansas. We at the Christian Research Institute do not endorse the teachings of Arnold Murray. This paper will demonstrate why we consider Mr. Murray’s teachings to be heretical.
THE CULTIC TEACHINGS OF ARNOLD MURRAY

Modalism

Mr. Murray does not believe in the Christian doctrine of the Trinity (one God existing eternally in three Persons). There are real and personal relationships between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Murray denies the three persons of God, claiming they are merely three offices. Concerning the Trinity, he said:
You have these yo‐yo’s that will say, “Well, I want you to think like of water (sic) and ice” and so on, “various gases” or so forth. Or then they’ll say, “I want you to think of a 200‐watt bulb, and a 150‐watt bulb, and a 50‐watt bulb.” Well, they’re all the same wattage, friend. So why not just simplify it instead of playing stupid games, and understand there are three offices of the Godhead. Like this little lady said. She said, “To my husband I am a wife, to my children I am a mother; that’s my office. To hundreds of third graders I am their teacher and have been down through the years. That’s a different office; none of them the same, but I’m still the same person.” I like that. It’s simple and to the point (The Shepherd’s Chapel Question and Answers period, aired 6‐4‐91).
Referring to Christ, Murray says, “His spirit is holy and he is the Holy Spirit.” (Shepherd’s Chapel Question and Answers period, 5‐8‐91) Hence, Murray is guilty of teaching the heresy of modalism, which states that Jesus is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (one Person in three roles, or modes). One of the accusations made against CRI by the followers of Arnold Murray is that Mr. Murray does hold to the eternal deity of Christ. However, since Murray does not believe in the three Persons of the Trinity, he cannot logically hold to the deity of Jesus Christ being the eternal Son of God, Second Person of the Trinity. Having made these statements, he inconsistently says, “A wise man never discusses the Trinity.” (Ibid., 5‐15‐91)
Little Gods

Not only does Arnold Murray teach a false concept of God, he also believes that men were once gods who existed prior to living on the earth. In Genesis 1:26 when referring to the “Our” and “Us” (which have normally been understood to mean the Persons of the Trinity: Mal. 2:10; cf. Job 9:8; Isa. 44:24) Murray says, “he spoke to the Elohim, meaning God and his children, ‘let us make that man in our image,’ which is to say make it look in the likeness that we are. Do you appear as your soul appeared in the world that was?” — “I told you that God said, “In Our image, Our likeness, the Elohim were standing there,” they were from before.” (Tape #146) “We always were with Him [God] until you were born into this earth.” (Kenites, Tape #486) Similar to the cultic teaching of the Mormons, Murray declares that God is “one man,…our Father,” and like the Oneness Pentecostals, God “(sic) gots three offices he serves.” (Shepherd’s Chapel Questions and Answers period, aired 5‐14‐91)
The Biblical View of God

The biblical teaching concerning the nature of God is completely incompatible with Murray’s modalism (a heresy taught by groups such as the Oneness Pentecostals). There is a distinction of Persons in the Godhead (Matt. 3:16, 17; 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14) who have personal relationships with one another which cannot be accounted for if they are all the exact same person as Murray teaches (Matt. 12:31, 32; John 1:1‐14; 8:16‐18; 14:16, 17, 23; 15:26; 16:28; 17:1‐5). The Trinity is one of the major tenets of the Christian faith. All the cults deviate from Christianity on this point, and Mr. Murray is no exception.
Additionally, God is not a man (Num. 23:19; Hos. 11:9; John 4:24), and angels and humans are not gods (Isa. 43:10; 44:6‐8; 1 Cor. 8:4‐6; Gal 4:8). Neither did man preexist with God. The Bible says that God created man on the earth, not in heaven (Gen.2:7; Zech. 12:1; 1 Cor. 14:47, 48). Christ, on the other hand, being the eternal Son of God who always existed with the Father (John 1:1; 17:5), is the only man who ever preexisted with the Father (John 3:13, 31; 8:23; 1 Cor. 15:45‐48). John the Baptist, who was born before Christ (Luke 1, 2), said that Christ existed before he did (John 1:15, 30). His statement can only be explained by affirming that Christ existed with God before his incarnation, and that John the Baptist (or any other human) did not.
THE IMPLICIT RACISM OF ARNOLD MURRAY

Anglo‐Israel Origins

Mr. Murray teaches Anglo‐Israelism, which believes that Anglo‐Saxons are the chosen race, and America and Great Britain are the lost tribes of the children of Israel. Murray claims that the northern ten tribes of Israel are “the same tribes that later went north and populated Europe and North America.” (The Shepherd’s Chapel newsletter #148, 2‐91) According to the theology of Anglo‐Israelism, other races are inferior to whites, and usually the blacks and Jewish race are particularly stigmatized. Murray, on the other hand, says that he respects blacks and other races. However, he believes these races were the Adam created on the sixth day of creation in Genesis 1, while the Anglo‐Saxons were another Adam created on the eighth day of creation based on his interpretation of Genesis 2. Hence, there is a definite distinction between whites and non‐whites. Arnold Murray also promotes the literature of other Anglo‐Israelism teachers. The Shepherd’s Chapel Book List, for instance, offers materials by E. Raymond Capt and J. H. Allen.
The Serpent Seed Doctrine and the Kenites

Another central teaching of Arnold Murray is the serpent seed doctrine. According to Murray, Eve had sex with the Serpent in the Garden of Eden. In 2 Corinthians 11:3, Murray uses the word “beguiled” to mean “wholly seduced.” Hence, Murray claims the Serpent sexually seduced Eve who then became pregnant with Cain; the devil’s literal offspring. Murray asserts that the offspring of Cain are called the “Kenites.” He also states that the Kenites are not a race, “but a hybrid.” (Genesis 1:1‐6:22, tape #146) He thus seems to implicitly consider them to be less than human. Mr. Murray claims that many of the Kenites are Jewish! Based upon the “creed” of the Shepherd’s Chapel, Murray states, “We believe in the existing Satan…who has a people who will not hear God (John 8:44‐47).” (Our Statement of Faith, p.2) In John 8:44‐47, the context clearly states that these people who are the “children of the devil” are Jews (8:31‐58).
Hence, Murray believes that Jesus is referring to these particular Jews as the literal offspring of Satan. Regarding the Jews he writes, “Now, who stands in Jerusalem today?.. the sons of Cain, or those who will not accept Jesus Christ..the Kenites, that founded a new nation starting in 1948.” (The Shepherd’s Bible, Commentary by Arnold Murray, 1979) He calls them “scum,” and obviously makes the racial Jewish businessman remark when he states, “If you want to get a Kenite upset, bother his money table.” (Parable of the Fig Tree, Tape #445) Murray connects these Jews with Cain by Christ’s comment in John 8:44 that their father was a “murderer from the beginning.” To affirm these Jews as the offspring of Cain (i.e., the Kenites), Murray refers to Cain’s murder of Abel in Genesis 4. One can only conclude that Mr. Murray has made statements that label him as a white supremacist. He might tell colored people to be proud of who they are, but then again, so do some white supremacists. The real questions the followers of Arnold Murray need to ask are: Does Arnold Murray think that non‐whites are equal to whites in every respect? Does he approve of interracial Christian marriages like the Bible does? (Gen. 16; Num. 12 cf., Gen. 10:6 & Amos 9:7; Song of Sol. 1:5‐7 cf., 3:7‐11; 1 Cor. 7:39; Gal. 3:28 [note: The only type of marriage the Bible forbids is one between believer and nonbeliever: Ex. 34:14‐16; 1 Cor. 7:39; 2 Cor. 6:14]). Would Mr. Murray let a black or a Christian of Jewish ancestry preach at his church—perhaps even take it over if he were to pass away? What does Murray think about the Jewish holocaust in World War II? What does he think about the Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan? These types of questions need to be addressed to Arnold Murray.
The Biblical View of the Races

The creation of man in Genesis 1 and 2 should not be interpreted as two separate Adams. Just like the Esau of Genesis 36:1‐37:1 should not be considered a different Esau from the one mentioned in Genesis 25:12‐35:29 (cf. 1 Chron. 1:38‐42), so the Adam mentioned in Genesis 1:1‐2:3 should not be considered a different Adam than the one mentioned in Genesis 2:4‐4:26. Genesis 1:1‐2:3 simply focuses on the development of heaven and earth, while Genesis 2:4‐4:26 focuses on the development of man. If Murray were consistent, he would have to say there must be a third Adam mentioned in Genesis 5:1, 2 that is different from the previous two Adams!
The Anglo‐Israelism theory has been refuted, and virtually no reputable scholar or historian today would promote it. The Assyrian and Babylonian captivities in 722 B.C. and 586 B.C. forever ended the schism between Judah and Israel. From about that time on, the terms “Jew” and Israelite” were used interchangeably. Further, there is no sufficient evidence that the Scythians (the supposed missing link between Israel and Great Britain) were ever connected with the ten tribes of Israel. By comparing the etymologies of English words from the most respected English dictionary (Oxford English Dictionary), there is simply no sufficient evidence to support any connection between the Anglo‐Saxon and Hebrew tongues.
The Old Testament also uses the children of Judah and the ten tribes of Israel together after the Jews returned from the Babylonian captivity in 536 B.C. (Ezra 2:70; 6:17; 7:6‐15; Neh. 7:73; 12:44‐47; Zech. 1:19; 8:13; 10:6; cf. 2 Chron. 11:3‐17; 15:9). Many of these texts are the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37:15‐25 (cf. Jer. 31:27; 50:40).
In the New Testament the Jews and the ten tribes of Israel are mentioned many times without any distinction made between them (e.g., Matt. 10:5, 6; 15:24; Luke 2:36; 22:30; Acts 2:14, 22, 23, 36; James 1:1; Rev. 7:4‐8). Both Jesus and Paul were Jews (Matt. 27:11 cf. Rom. 9:1‐4; Acts 21:39 cf. Rom 11:1‐2). Since all New Testament Christians are God’s chosen people, racial distinctions no longer matter (John 1:12‐13; Acts 10:34; 17:26 cf. Gen 3:20; Rom. 8:14; 1 Pet. 2:9; Col. 3:11; Gal. 3:28; Rev. 5:9, 10). All humanity has sinned (Rom. 3:23; 5:12‐20); thus, as William H. Baker states, “The so‐called races must be equal, because sin is what produces undesirable traits, not race” (Moody Monthly, “Equal Before God,” p.19, 1‐87).
The Myth of the Kenites

The Jews of John 8:44 are not Kenites. Jesus was simply denouncing these particular Jews for their unbelief—as he and his apostles would denounce anyone as a child of the devil, Jew or Gentile, who refused to believe (Matt. 16:23; Eph. 2:1‐3; 11; 3:1; 1 John 3:9, 10). Christ was calling them the “children of the devil” because of what they believed, not because of who they were. Additionally, Jesus was not making a blanket judgment on all or even most Jews, but only this small group of Jews because they intended to kill him (John 8:40, 44, 58, 59). Furthermore, it is not Cain who is the murderer in John 8:44, for Jesus says it is literally the devil who is the murderer. The murder mentioned in John 8:44 is not Cain’s murder of Abel, but the devil causing death to occur upon all the human race when he instigated Adam and Eve to sin (Gen. 2:17; 3:1‐4, 19; Rom. 5:12). Anyone, whether Jew or Gentile (including Anglo‐Saxons), are considered Satan’s child if they refuse to believe in Christ (Gen. 3:15; Matt. 13:36‐43). This “seed of the Serpent” is not Cain and his literal offspring, but only a figurative offspring. In other words, only those people (regardless of what race they belong to) who do not believe the gospel are the children of Satan because they follow their own sinful tendencies instead of accepting Christ (Matt. 16:23; John 6:70, 71; Acts 5:3; 13:4‐10; Rom. 5:12‐19; 8:5‐6; Eph. 2:1‐2; 1 John 3:4‐10).
If there were any descendents of Cain (which there isn’t), they could receive salvation too, because a number of people from all nationalities, tongues, tribes, and races will serve Christ (Rev. 5:9, 10) just like a number of people from all races will serve Satan (Rev. 13:5‐8). Furthermore, the Kenites mentioned in Jeremiah 35 and 1 Chronicles 2:55 are not the children of the Cain of Genesis 4. First of all, Scripture does not say that the Kenites are the children of the same Cain who slew Abel. Second, simply because both terms come from the same Hebrew word does not mean that all, some, or any Kenites are the descents of the Cain who slew Abel. Apparently, “Cain” was a common name just like “Zechariah.” The Bible records at least 33 men by the name of Zechariah, and not all of them were related (e.g., there is no relationship between these men who were all named Zechariah: 1 Chron. 5:7; 24:25; 2 Chron. 21:2; 2 Kings 14:29). Therefore, individuals can be called the descendents of Cain, but the Cain they are related to was not the same Cain who slew Abel in Genesis 4 (see for instance, the different Kenites mentioned in Gen. 5:12; Num. 24:21, 22; Judges 1:16; 1 Sam 15:6). Third, some Kenites do acts of righteousness, and Jonadab the Rechabite could be considered a righteous man of God (1 Sam. 15:6; 2 Kings 10:15; 16, 23, 24; Jer. 35:12‐16). It would be impossible for them to be commended for their righteousness by both God and the Israelites if they were “children of the devil.” Furthermore, the whole doctrine of the serpent seed is flawed because nowhere in Scripture does it ever say word for word that Eve actually had sex with the Serpent in the Garden of Eden. In 2 Corinthians 11:3 the word for “beguiled” (exapatao) should be rendered “wholly deceived.” Just because Eve was fully deceived does not mean that she literally had sex with the Serpent. In other passages where the same Greek word is used, it is never connected with sex. In fact, if it were connected with sex, we would run into ridiculous conclusions, like people literally having sex with their own minds (Rom. 16:18; cf., 1 Cor. 3:18)!
Also, if Eve had to hide her nakedness because of her sex with the Serpent, we would have to conclude that Adam also had sex with the serpent (Gen. 3:6, 7). It was out a sexual relationship with Adam, not the Serpent, that Eve became impregnated with Cain. The New International Version correctly renders Genesis 4:1, 2: “Adam lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain.” There is also no evidence that Abel was the fraternal twin of Cain. The “again” of Genesis 4:2 does not indicate that Eve gave birth to Abel right after (whether a few minutes, hours, or days) she gave birth to Cain. Several years may have passed before Eve “bore again,” by giving birth to Cain’s brother, Abel. Not to mention, Josephus writes that Cain was begotten by both Adam and Eve (Antiquities 1:.2:1). Finally, even if Cain were the literal offspring of Satan, no descendent of Cain survived the flood of Noah.
The Kenites and the Flood of Noah

In order to support his view that the Kenites survived the flood, Murray misinterprets Genesis 6:7. Instead of adhering to the plain meaning of the text in which God says that he will wipe out all mankind, Murray claims that this phrase is a figure of speech which means that he’ll wipe out “more or less” everything. (Tape #146) According to Murray, it cannot mean that God would wipe out absolutely everyone, because Noah and his family survived the flood. In the same context, however, the Bible states that the only exception to this flood would be Noah and his family because Noah was a righteous man (Gen. 6:8‐9). All the rest of humanity would be completely wiped out (cf. 7:19‐23).
God told Noah the reason why He would destroy all humans was because mankind had become wicked (6:10‐13). If the purpose of the flood was to wipe out sin, then why would God allow some of the “wicked Kenites” to survive? The only logical explanation is to believe that God wiped out all mankind, including all the “Kenites.” Additionally, in Genesis 9:11 God promises Noah that He would never again destroy all flesh by means of a flood. But if this flood were merely a local community flood which did not even reach the people of the land of Nod, as Murray claims, then God must have lied because we still have had hundreds of local floods over the years. The only way to affirm that God kept His promise is to believe that this flood universally destroyed all human life. Regardless of whether one believes that the flood of Noah covered the entire earth, or only a portion of it, the evidence is clear that this flood destroyed all mankind except for one family. Other cultures testify to this as well. In order to escape this evidence, Murray makes the assertion that some Kenites actually managed to get on board of Noah’s ark. Since Noah took “two of every flesh,” Murray concludes that he also took two Kenites on board! (Kenites, Tape #436) The Bible, however, clearly affirms that Noah, his wife, and his three sons and their wives were the only humans who survived the flood (Gen. 6:18; 9:18, 19; 2 Peter 2:5). In order to be true to Scripture, Murray must either conclude that absolutely no Kenites survived the flood, or admit that he is a racist for believing the Kenites cannot really be considered human. He appears to hold the latter by saying the Kenites are not a race, “but a hybrid.” (Tape #146) Nevertheless, even if the Kenites were less than human, they still committed sin according to Murray. And as mentioned earlier, the purpose of the flood was to wipe out sin and wickedness. If any Kenite survived the flood, then God failed to achieve His purpose. Thus, either God made a mistake, or Arnold Murray made a mistake. Since God is perfect, and Murray isn’t, we must conclude that Murray is wrong, God is right, and there are no “Kenites” alive today.





.

[StackerKen]

ARNOLD MURRAY’S FAULTY INTERPRETATIONS

Most of Arnold Murray’s heretical teaching comes from a subtle misinterpreting of Scripture. He commonly manipulates the original Greek and Hebrew languages, abuses the use of symbols and numerics, interprets Scripture out of context, and makes use of selective citations. By emphasizing to his audience that he has the correct, almost “secret” meaning of the text that most scholars have ignored or overlooked, Murray can get a passage of Scripture to mean almost anything he desires it to. He claims that the majority of Christians have been “wrong from the beginning” regarding their understanding of Scripture. (Parable of the Fig Tree, tape #445)
Mr. Murray commonly uses King James English instead of examining the original languages whenever the English translation supports his view—but when it contradicts his view, he will attempt to support his view by means of the original languages. For instance, he uses the Old English word “replenish” to mean “repopulate” in Genesis 1:28 in order to support the widely disreputed “gap theory.” (e.g., tape #146) This theory alleges that there was an earth age of millions of years between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. Murray states that Adam repopulated the earth. (e.g., tape #146) However, the Hebrew word for “replenish” is “malah” which, in all 306 times it occurs in Scripture, simply means “to fill,” not “refill.” The Oxford English Dictionary demonstrates that “replenish” simply meant “fill” from the 13th to the 17th century when the King James Version was translated. This is why Murray does not refer to the Hebrew of this passage. This is just one of many examples of how Murray deliberately deceives his followers by withholding the truth from them.
It should be noted that the original languages are not necessarily the most important aspect of interpreting Scripture, and numerics and symbols are of little value. The simple reading of a text within its proper context, and comparing this in light of all biblical passages that relate to that text remains the most important principle of interpreting Scripture. Murray does very little of this. His usual method is to let either the root meaning of a particular word, or figurative language and symbols dictate what the text means while ignoring the context and passages that contradict his claims. We encourage the followers of Arnold Murray to do their own study of the Scriptures without Murray’s aid. By applying sound principles of interpretation, we are confident they will come up with a completely different view than that of Mr. Murray. A good book to help the student begin this pursuit is Knowing Scripture (B110/$10.00), by R. C. Sproul.
MURRAY’S FAULTY VIEW HELL

Mr. Murray also teaches the doctrine of annihilationism. This view teaches that all unbelievers will not be tormented eternally in hell, but will completely disappear. “We know man can kill our earthly bodies, but only our Father in heaven has the power to wipe out the existence of the soul…God’s emotions are so much greater than you can even imagine, and to roast one of his own children day and night would be something only Satan would conceive of.” (Newsletter #151) Christ, on the other hand, asserts that just like the righteous will have never ending life, so shall the unrighteous have never ending punishment (Matt. 25:41, 46). Furthermore, this punishment is a conscious punishment according to Revelation 14:9‐11 (cf. Rev. 20:10).

IS THE RAPTURE CULTIC?

Mr. Murray also emphasizes, and takes dogmatic stands on issues over which Christians can legitimately disagree. One such case pertains to the rapture of the church. According to Murray, Christians who believe in the rapture are cultic, and do not have God’s seal upon them. They will be deceived by Satan during the end times. “Most go along with this cult that teaches the rapture that didn’t start till 1830, but it’s growing into the largest cult in the world.” (The Shepherd’s Chapel Questions and Answers period, aired 5‐16‐91) “When this false christ stands in the holy place performing in the sight of Christians, the pretribulation rapture Christian shall think it is Christ come to rapture them away.” (Our Statement of Faith, p. 2)
Murray’s statement, however, is fallacious. Christianity has always believed in a literal rapture by which the saints would be transformed and removed from this earth to meet Christ in the air, not on the earth. Since the Antichrist (who will live on the earth, not in the air) will not be able to literally transform their bodies, nor cause them to disappear from the earth, there is simply no way Christians will follow such a man, nor believe he is the Christ who has come to rapture them away. It is true that followers of the Antichrist will be strongly deluded, but this delusion is caused by the miracles he and the false prophet perform (2 Thes. 2:9; Rev. 13:11‐15; 16:13, 14; 19:20). But Christians already know that the Antichrist will attempt to delude people by using spectacular miracles. It is virtually inconceivable, then, to think that any believers would follow a man they know fits the criteria of the Antichrist.
Mr. Murray bases much of his anti‐rapture claim on Dave MacPherson’s research. He claimed that the pretribulation rapture came from a personal revelation of a young girl named Margaret Macdonald in 1830. Actually, there is no hard evidence that J. N. Darby, the pretribulation advocate of the 19th century, was influenced by Margaret Macdonald. Second, even if Darby was influenced by Macdonald, this does not necessarily mean that his view was false. As long as he can adequately support his position by Scripture, it does not matter who influenced him. We should avoid committing the “genetic fallacy” of Arnold Murray. Just because some beliefs and teachings are connected with controversial or pagan origins, does not necessarily mean that such teachings should be discarded. For instance, chemistry came from boiling toads in urine. But it would be absurd to discard all medicine because chemistry had its origin in what seems to be a witch’s brew! Murray also commits this same fallacy by denouncing those who celebrate holidays such as Easter. The Hebrews celebrated their Feast of Tabernacles after the pagan holidays of Palestinian culture at that time. If Murray were consistent, he would have to condemn all musicians, cattlemen, and smiths because these occupations found their roots with the linage of Cain (Gen. 4:19‐22). Regardless of when the rapture will occur, the fact remains there will be a rapture or “catching away” of the saints to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess. 4:16, 17; 1 Cor. 15:52; possibly Rev. 11:12; 12:5). If Murray believes there will be no rapture (catching away) of the saints, he is being both unbiblical and setting himself against the historic understanding of the Christian church.
ARNOLD MURRAY: GOD’S EXCLUSIVE END‐TIME MESSENGER?


What really sets Arnold Murray apart is his claim to be God’s exclusive messenger for this era. Although he says that not all Christians are deceived, his comments nevertheless ostracize all orthodox denominations as being deceived. First, all teachers who do not hold to a literal offspring of God and Satan (i.e., the serpent seed doctrine), are considered by Murray as “nothing but a bunch of self‐righteous hypocrites blinded by what sounds good to men’s ears.” (Tape #436)
Second, Christians who believe in a literal six‐day creation are deceived and many are going to hell (i.e., all or most fundamentalists). “Only an idiot will stand and argue…such a thing [young earth creationism], for the manuscripts declare that this earth, not this earth age, but this earth is millions of years old…A lot are going to hell unless they realize ‘the destruction that was’ [i.e., the gap theory between Genesis 1:1 & 1:2]…Take the blinders…off of your eyes where you just have tunnel vision, one earth age. You can’t understand God’s Word if that’s all you see” (ibid.). Third, Christians who believe in the rapture, speak in tongues, or celebrate Easter are deceived (that includes all major branches of Christianity: Protestant, Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox!). “Do we know anyone deceived by any of Satan’s lies? Do we believe in rapture, or babbling, or Easter, etc?...To flirt with doctrines, beliefs, and traditions that are contrary to what Christ taught endangers the pureness of your soul…Recognize the false from the true so you may come to the wedding, worthy and accountable to be accepted.” (The Shepherd’s Chapel Newsletter #126, 4‐89) Fourth, he claims that the majority of Christians have been “wrong since the beginning” (i.e., historic orthodox Christianity). (Parable of the Fig Tree, Tape #445)
Ultimately, Mr. Murray subtly pressures his listeners to choose between his “prophetic” word or “the doctrine of the Pharisees” of orthodox Christianity. “But, deep down in your souls when you must make the decision to stand for your Father or the traditions of man, it can separate you from friends and loved ones.” (Newsletter #129, 6‐89) In defiance of Acts 1:7, Mr. Murray set an end time date by claiming that the Antichrist would appear by 1981. This prediction, of course, turned out to be false. “Lucifer was taken to the pit…Know from the 2nd chapter of 2 Thessalonians that he shall soon return. The Book of Daniel very clearly states that it shall happen before the year 1981, if you have any understanding at all of the wisdom of the elect in the last days.” (Seed of the Serpent, version taped in 1979) Yet, in spite of his prejudices, false doctrine, and false prophecies, he states, “I am a servant of the living God that carries the end time message, and it’s either time to wake up now, or go down with your boat, friend.” (The Shepherd’s Chapel Questions and Answers period, aired 5‐16‐91)
CONCLUSION



Based on the above evidence, by redefining the nature of God, Arnold Murray denies the Trinity and the eternal sonship of Christ. As this statement has demonstrated, his views imply a subtle racism. He also teaches the distorted gospel of Anglo‐Israelism, the serpent seed doctrine, and other unorthodox doctrines. He uses the original languages, numerics, symbols, and figures of speech whenever they can be manipulated to support his view, but ignores or redefines them if they happen to contradict him. His antagonistic attitude towards orthodox Christianity is blatantly evident. Christians should stay far away from his ministry and teachings.
APPENDIX

Does Arnold Murray Have a Doctor’s Degree?

Arnold Murray claims to have received a doctorate under a man by the name of Roy Gillespie. He also asserts his dissertation was on the Book of Daniel. After learning this, CRI attempted to find out where Murray received his doctorate. I personally wrote to Arnold Murray and asked for information about his degree. I also attempted to find any dissertation by either Murray or Gillespie through University Microfilms International (UMI Microfilms) in Michigan, the headquarters for postgraduate dissertation copies in America. There were no dissertations on file by either of these men. Neither could any dissertation be found through checking with Inter‐library loan, and The National Union Catalog Pre‐1956 Imprints.
Tony Pierce, another counter‐cult researcher, had also called the Shepherd’s Chapel questioning Murray’s credentials. The receptionist accused her of being a “Kenite,” but did mention that Murray used to be a student at Biola University in California. After contacting the school, Biola University personnel stated that the University never had a student by the name of Arnold Murray throughout its history. Furthermore, Biola did not even have a doctoral program until recently. A receptionist from the Shepherd’s Chapel also stated that Murray’s dissertation was being “revised.” However, there is no such thing as a “revised” dissertation once it is submitted. A doctor’s dissertation must be in its completed form if a school is to award anyone with a doctor’s degree. Based upon the above evidence, we can only conclude that the Shepherd’s Chapel has been dishonest in this regard, and that Arnold Murray does not have a genuine doctor’s degree from a properly accredited university or seminary

[7th trump]

7th;
I think I am now being convicted be the Holy spirit.
I know it is wrong to gossip. and I repent. and ask forgiveness.

I think I should not have posted that stuff about Arnold Murray
I don't know anything about him. only what I have read others say about him.
So I will ask you.

Are these statements true?

1st:


He predicted that the war of Armageddon will start on June 8-9, 1985 in "a valley of the Alaskan peninsula."

2nd

One of the several false doctrines of the Shepherd's Chapel is the teaching that all people had an existence prior to being here on earth in what is called the first earth age. This aligns with the “gap theory” which tries to make the Bible conform to evolution versus it truly being created in six 24 hour days just as Genesis, in its plainest reading says. These theories are what attacks the foundation of the Bible and causes it to lose its authority not only in the secular world, but with professing Christians as well. The Shepherd's Chapel teaches that we were created in the first earth age, a time before the fall, where we existed in the form of soul bodies. The problem with this is that there is no Biblical support for this position. In fact, the Bible contradicts this soul-body idea.

3rd


Two additional distinguishing and erroneous doctrines of the Shepherd's Chapel are known as the Serpent Seed doctrine and the Kenite doctrine. These are intimately related. The Serpent Seed doctrine is the teaching that in the Garden of Eden, the serpent (the devil) had sexual relations with Eve. The result was that she bore Cain. The descendents of Cain are called Kenites. Abel, however, is the result of Adam and Eve having relations.

Arnold Murray, the pastor of the Shepherd's Chapel, is the primary advocate of these doctrines which he adamantly teaches and which his followers have adopted as Biblical truth.

4th


The next problematic issue with this church is its denial of the Trinity. The Bible teaches that there is one God in three persons: Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Shepherd's Chapel teaches modalism, the idea that God is one person who took different forms or modes. The Christian church long condemned modalism as contrary to sound biblical theology.

The Shepherd's Chapel is at best a very aberrant Christian church and at worst, a cult. Is denial of the Trinity enough to make a group non-Christian? Yes it is. If Murray continues to deny the Trinity, that God is three distinct persons -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, then this would cast great doubt upon Murray as a proper Bible teacher.



I do not know if this stuff is true...and again I should not have posted that stuff about Arnold.

Im asking you if it is true.


Here Ken, read Arnolds letter to the critics yourself. It'll clear up alot of lies.

http://www.shepherdschapel.com/critics.htm

[StackerKen]

Sorry about derailing your thread Spectrism :(

I figured it was so far off track a little more wouldn't hurt. ;)

[StackerKen]

I just read it 7th
He seems to side step some things a bit.(but I could be wrong)

In my posts above #239 and #240, CRI documents all the places where Arnold is quoted. (tape # for example)



Also I want to point out some statements he made in his letter you linked to.

Arnold writes


" I make no apology for teaching the Godhead in this manner, and I certainly do not need an endorsement or approval or further interpretation of my words from any man or group of research witch hunters.

and maybe you should learn from him here...


If you disagree with me, that is quite alright. All I ask is that you be honest in disagreement and careful to document your beliefs. I'll always respect honest disagreement.


I don't have time or the desire to check him out for myself.....
So I think maybe i should not have made a any statement of my own about Arnold.

Im just posting what I have found on the web.

[Spectrism]

Sorry about derailing your thread Spectrism :(

I figured it was so far off track a little more wouldn't hurt. ;)



Haha... no worries. Any chance to seek truth can't be all bad. These things sure do tend to take their own paths.

I am not sure who Murray is... is he the guy who does the chalk-talks? Drawing scenes while talking.

Or is he the heavy set guy who sits behind a desk all the time?

Anyway- he sure seems to condemn alot of people. It sounds a bit heavy-handed according to the critic.


ed= I found it on his home site. He is the guy behind the desk.

I really have not studied his positions. I do admire people who have formed strong conclusions from their studies even when I disagree with them. I run into problems with them when they hide contradictions or hold hypocritical positions. When they fail to provide support for positions and demand blind allegiance, watch out.

Looking at his response above, he sounded pretty straight. Hmmmm... read a little more. Sounds pretty good actually.

[StackerKen]

thanks for looking into his teaching Spectrism.

A lot of the aberrant stuff that 7th comes up with seems to be exactly what Murray teaches.

So please let me know what you discover

[StackerKen]

7th
Brother, I don't want there to be any hard feelings between us.

I apologize for what may seem like an attack on Arnold Murray.

I'm not attacking him...(or you for that matter)

I am just questioning what he teaches

And Like i said before, I should Not said some of the stuff I said about him...
.Im sorry I did.

[7th trump]

thanks for looking into his teaching Spectrism.

A lot of the aberrant stuff that 7th comes up with seems to be exactly what Murray teaches.

So please let me know what you discover


Ken,
Are you a beleiver or a doubter?
What do you think Jesus was addressing when he said:


Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.


Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

You do understand that this is Jesus speaking here?
Hes telling you right out in the open that hes not coming to rapture you away or anything else you may beleive that concocted from man.
If you think I'm saying something aberrant or out of the normal then you are not reading the Bible correctly.
Were you not listening to the scripture Spec posted about the last trump where we are all changed?
Where do you see in any of the false lies that green has been posting that either supports green or the last trump change. Where do you see in the rapture theory that anyone is changed?
I dont see anything.........do you.
And why are you asking Spec to do your dilligent study of Arnold or the Bible for that matter?
Are you lazy Ken?
Would you rather listen to the traditions of men or Gods word?
Do you know what a heathen is Ken?
Basically a heathen is a fense rider. They are neither hot nor cold when it come to Gods word.

Why dont you get your Bible out. Pull up the Arnolds website, download the daily Bible study from yesterday and see for yourself if Arnold is telling a lie or not?
I mean its easy enough to follow Arnold as he uses a ticker at the bottom of the screen to show you what he reading just so people dont think hes deviating from each and every passage of the KJV Bible. Its word for word with Arnold and he even takes it to the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic so you dont get all confused over certian important words otherwise over looked in the english. Not only that Ken, but Arnold takes the last half hour of the study and answers letters from his viewers. You may find amswers you've been looking for from a person asking the same question. Arnold even documents what he says by going to another book in the Bible to confirm it.
He even speaks a little of each language so you know how it sounds. He can even recites in Hebrew the last words of Christ on the cross which Jesus was reciting from the old testiment.

[7th trump]

7th
Brother, I don't want there to be any hard feelings between us.

I apologize for what may seem like an attack on Arnold Murray.

I'm not attacking him...(or you for that matter)

I am just questioning what he teaches

And Like i said before, I should Not said some of the stuff I said about him...
.Im sorry I did.



Dont appologize Ken...............theres no need to!

[StackerKen]

Thanks 7th

And Thanks be to God.

I trust God will keep me safe.
I will trust no Man. and I will bow down to no man
I plan to hold on to my Faith
These passages give me comfort and assurance

Revelation 3 (New King James Version)

10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.




There will be no place for the mark of the beast on me because
I will have God's name written on me :)

[Spectrism]

I am not sure about posting this here. It is highly likely that the last 3.5 years of this world start in March 2013. Between February and March there should be some interesting power shifts. This also happens to coincide with the new US president.

This video, although a bit dry, is loaded with information.

http://www.119ministries.com/daniel-unsealed

[StackerKen]

no doupt that has some interesting info Brother.

3.5 years from 3/13...or tomorrow.. :)

[Spectrism]

When this thread was started, Obama had already been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. That was October 9, 2009. His formal acceptance was on Dec 10, 2009- 2 months later.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AORo-YEXxNQ

Exactly 1260 days (3.5 years) after his announced award is March 22, 2013.

1260 after March 22, 2013 is the likely return of Messiah and the end of this age. We are likely in the last 3.5 years of this world. We watch now as Obama is scheduled to enter Jerusalem on March 20, 2013. He is a boasting, arrogant liar. If we see him boast in his typical manner in Jerusalem, consider the game to be on. Hell will begin to be unleashed on this planet.

At some point, I would like to see this thread moved to general discussion. What is unfolding is not a religious closet event. We will see millions upon millions of people wiped out. It will start out slowly and ramp up as a woman in childbirth. There will be signposts for those not blinded.


Watch this devil in his words and actions. And watch the supernatural delusion of millions of lemmings as they worship this huma piece of excrement. He can fool people but he cannot fool flies.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68lqg5fibYY

[Spectrism]

The Messiah described the last days to be like the days of Noah. The human population then was so rampantly corrupt that there was a NEED to wipe most of them out. Perhaps it was because of genetic tampering as some would suggest- the Nephilim interbreeding with humans. It would reason that the Messiah who was a human sacrifice for human DNA only was not a redeemer for other species, so they were lost anyhow. And, for them to continue breeding would just add to the losses.

Or, it could be that they were so morally corrupt that their norms would not be shaken into righteousness by any means.

The whole world continued on their regular plans- working, marrying, partying, etc. For them, Noah was a silly old man who prepped for an impossible flood. Up to that point, there had not been rain, but the plants were watered from beneath the ground and condensate / dew in the mornings.


We were warned that history would repeat, or at least rhym with today. Mass delusion. When you see yourself joining a crowd in agreement, you had better get warning alarms in your head. When you find you are alone or few in number, be glad because the masses are surely wrong.

We now watch what happens with Obama and Rome. These can point to other prophetic fulfillments in these corrupt last days.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8xmFo2ODlM



Israel will give Obama a medal for improving the security of Israel. Really??


1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BZluwbTHOg

[Spectrism]

Obama will enter Jerusalem on the same day (tomorrow) the Messiah rode in on a donkey. No, I don't think Biden will be there for Baracula to ride.

But look at this video of what they palns to do. Notice that the plan to divide up Israel shows a map removing key territories from Israel! Any time we messed with Israel in the past, calamities struck America. Doom is very near.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5pUVHW-Lhw

The deal will be sealed by the end of Friday, 3/22. Something historical and prophetic is likely to happen between sunset Thursday and sunset Friday. Watch. See if it is released to the public. This devil will dare to oppose what God has decreed. He has done evil things before but now it is in a place that will cause the world to shake.

[Jewboo]

Notice that the plan to divide up Israel shows a map removing key territories from Israel! Any time we messed with Israel in the past, calamities struck America. Doom is very near.

The deal will be sealed by the end of Friday, 3/22. Something historical and prophetic is likely to happen between sunset Thursday and sunset Friday. Watch. See if it is released to the public. This devil will dare to oppose what God has decreed. He has done evil things before but now it is in a place that will cause the world to shake.



https://fasttimesinpalestine.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/four-panel-map.jpg

Gosh. NOTHING happen between sunset Thursday and sunset Friday except the jews murdered a few more Palestinians and stole some more of their land. These "prophetic" visions you keep getting related to a recent increase in drug or alcohol use? You feeling ok buddy?

:(??

[Spectrism]

Gosh. NOTHING happen between sunset Thursday and sunset Friday except the jews murdered a few more Palestinians and stole some more of their land. These "prophetic" visions you keep getting related to a recent increase in drug or alcohol use? You feeling ok buddy?

:(??

Actually it did. You were just too busy pickin yer nose to see it. Catch any prize-winners in yer snout?

[Jewboo]

Any time we messed with Israel in the past, calamities struck America. Doom is very near.




http://youtu.be/8KLALZLEDgo

http://smileys.emoticonsonly.com/emoticons/i/israel-1641.gif

[irmatvep]

What is happening in the world right now is just the beginning of the minor chastisement. The minor chastisement consists of two parts. The first phase is entirely man made. Because man's sinfulness has reached such a peak (more so now than at any other time in history), God has withdrawn much of His grace and in His permissive will is allowing us to suffer from the consequences of our own folly. We can expect to see more wars, droughts, famines, disturbances in nature etc. and a brief triumph of Communism globally. As the situation continually worsens it appears now that WWIII is inevitable. Remember war is always a punishment for sin. The Church will undergo the greatest persecution she has ever endured since Our Lord founded her in 33 A.D. All the persecutions that faithful Christians of the past underwent will seem like child's play by comparison. The coming persecution will be far worse than during the French Reign of Terror or in Russia and China during the Bolshevik era. Many faithful bishops (including the pope), priests, consecrated souls and lay people will be martyred. Finally God in His infinite mercy will intervene in human affairs and put an end to all the carnage. Some prophecies state that God will accomplish His intervention by sending the "Three Days of Darkness". After the minor chastisement (which lasts about four years) an era of unprecedented peace and prosperity such as the world has never known before will follow. God will shower mankind so abundantly with graces that the earth will be more fertile than in all previous ages combined. The Gospel will be preached to every nation and people. Many pagans, Mohammedans and Jews will enter the Church In short it will be the final victory of the one true Church before the coming of the son of perdition. However, not all men will embrace the truth. The wheat and tares will co-exist together in this world until the end of time. The duration of this peace is dependent on how well mankind responds to God's grace and it's length is known to Him alone. Unfortunately during the extended age peace and prosperity, man will once again start to become lax in his duties to God and his fellow creatures. Too much material wealth and ease is not good for man. He tends to attribute all his good fortune to his own efforts and forgets that God is the source of all blessings. There is a reason why God cursed Adam to toil by the sweat of his brow and that he would have to overcome many thorns and thistles along life's journey. If we never had any problems and hardships, we would delude ourselves into thinking that we didn't need God at all. It's hard for us to imagine that right before the advent of the Antichrist, man will be even more corrupt and perverted than he is now. Anyway after the age of peace concludes comes the reign of the Antichrist. The era in which the Antichrist terrorizes the Church for three and a half years is known as the major chastisement. We all know that after the Antichrist is killed signals the end of world and the general judgment.

[Spectrism]

Hi IRMA- where yuh been hiding?

If you had written that a few hundred years ago, I could probably agree with most of it. I think we are already in the last 3.5 years. We may already have the beasts here and the man of sin is likely already in power.

Can you not see the power grabs happening now to snuff any viable resistance? With this Boston event, I see more doors closing on the gates of the death camp.

[irmatvep]

Hi IRMA- where yuh been hiding?

If you had written that a few hundred years ago, I could probably agree with most of it. I think we are already in the last 3.5 years. We may already have the beasts here and the man of sin is likely already in power.

Can you not see the power grabs happening now to snuff any viable resistance? With this Boston event, I see more doors closing on the gates of the death camp.

Well I guess you and I will never agree on this subject. I've studied all the approved prophecies that have been given by God to all his Saints, Venerables and Blesseds and well as what the Church Fathers wrote about the end times. The end of the world is not imminent. There is definitely going to be an age of peace to follow all this present madness.

[Spectrism]

Well I guess you and I will never agree on this subject. I've studied all the approved prophecies that have been given by God to all his Saints, Venerables and Blesseds and well as what the Church Fathers wrote about the end times. The end of the world is not imminent. There is definitely going to be an age of peace to follow all this present madness.

We certainly won't agree. You claim to have studied ALL the prophecies?!?!?! Good grief! That is such bluster that nothing you can now say will have credibility. I have studied the book of Revelation and wouldn't dare to claim I studied ALL of the book of Revelation enough to be all-knowing about its contents.

Your words contradict the words of the bible- which I hold as the words of God. That puts you into a dangerous place known as apostacy. If you really had studied the true church fathers, you would have known that none of them would have accepted or wanted the false title of "venerable".

We are in the days when people want to surrender liberty in expectation of peace & security. The words of prophecy make it very clear that these are the last days and death & destruction will quickly visit the misguided people. "Peace, peace"... but there will be no peace.

[Spectrism]

How sad it is that this thread got derailed and was (early on) bannished to the foresaken religious area where only kooks and strays dare wander.

The first page and pages 23 & 24 are the intent of the thread with much of the in-between dealing with spoiled brats.

But here we are.... on the precipice of doom and we shall soon see what was foretold long ago. We will lose more friends soon.

[Spectrism]

And the clock ticks downward. Only a few seconds remaining on the world clock. Those who would mock the warnings best awaken in the shakings to happen within 6 months. Of course, doom is always 6 months away. But watch what the governments do and if you have ever seen squirrels collecting acorns on a cold October day, you will know things are different. So many things are about to unfold. It saddened me to see this thread derailed because of the things I could have told you.

[Spectrism]

The Messiah described the last days to be like the days of Noah. The human population then was so rampantly corrupt that there was a NEED to wipe most of them out. Perhaps it was because of genetic tampering as some would suggest- the Nephilim interbreeding with humans. It would reason that the Messiah who was a human sacrifice for human DNA only was not a redeemer for other species, so they were lost anyhow. And, for them to continue breeding would just add to the losses.

Or, it could be that they were so morally corrupt that their norms would not be shaken into righteousness by any means.

The whole world continued on their regular plans- working, marrying, partying, etc. For them, Noah was a silly old man who prepped for an impossible flood. Up to that point, there had not been rain, but the plants were watered from beneath the ground and condensate / dew in the mornings.


We were warned that history would repeat, or at least rhym with today. Mass delusion. When you see yourself joining a crowd in agreement, you had better get warning alarms in your head. When you find you are alone or few in number, be glad because the masses are surely wrong.

We now watch what happens with Obama and Rome. These can point to other prophetic fulfillments in these corrupt last days.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8xmFo2ODlM



Israel will give Obama a medal for improving the security of Israel. Really??


1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BZluwbTHOg


Watch what happens in September with the UN. Peace & Safety. Then DESTRUCTION. Prep now to be away from the cities and coastlines. Most of all- get on your knees and give yourself to Messiah and ask Him to be your Lord and Master. You do NOT want the gods of this world to be your masters. You choose One or the others. Give yourself to Messiah Yashuah and the scales of blindness will fall from your eyes.