Arizona Governor Jan Bewer signs SB 1070

[Kali]

Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer today signed a controversial immigration bill into state law, advancing a politically charged debate that is already having reverberations in Washington.

Link Here (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/onpolitics/post/2010/04/gov-brewer-announces-decision-on-immigration-bill/1)



EDIT: Replaced long link with named link to prevent forum page scrolling to the right. -Gaillo

[chad]

huffingtonpost main story. people are going batshit crazy in the comments.

[Apparition]

Let the protests begin!

Bravo, Brewer.

[Horn]

Do you have your papers?

Arizona illegal immigrant law is a Nazi measure says Catholic Archbishop Mahony

Link to Article (http://www.irishcentral.com/story/news/people_and_politics/arizona-illegal-immigrant-law-is-a-nazi-measure-says-catholic-archbishop-mahony-91743814.html)


The Archbishop of Los Angeles Cardinal Roger Mahony (above) has come out swinging against Arizona's illegal immigration measure calling it something the Nazis would have been proud of.

He blasted the bill as "the country's most retrogressive, mean-spirited and useless anti-immigrant law."

"American people are fair-minded and respectful. I can't imagine Arizonans now reverting to German Nazi and Russian Communist techniques whereby people are required to turn one another in to the authorities on any suspicion of documentation," Mahony wrote on his blog.

The measure would allow police to stop someone if they suspect them of being in the country illegally.

The bill does not specify what grounds the police would need but the implications are frightening.

The new measure would also require all immigrants to have their papers on them in the event they are stopped by police.

"The tragedy of the law is its totally flawed reasoning: that immigrants come to our country to rob, plunder and consume public resources. That is not only false, the premise is nonsense."



EDIT: Replaced long link with named link to prevent forum page scrolling to the right. -Gaillo

[silverblood]

Bad move there in Arizona. The police state becomes ever more firmly entrenched, step by tiny step.

Halt! Present your papers!

[Celtic Rogue]

GO Gov Bewer!!!! Now if only my state gov would grow some cahones!!!!!

[mick silver]

this is good news ... lets see how far the fight will go . i see the fed going after here hard ... but i hope she can hold here own and win this .

[Book]

this is good news ...


http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/illegalaliens_1.jpg

This IS good news. Might take the smirk off their illegal faces now...lol.

:D

[Kali]

Read some comments on huffington post....its amazing that so many people really think they have "rights" here when they are here illegally.

The millions of Mexicans here need to team up and overtake their corrupt government and the drug lords (if there's a difference). Take back their own country.

[wildcard]

the state must act because the federal government has failed.

Bravo!

[MarketNeutral]

Read some comments on huffington post....its amazing that so many people really think they have "rights" here when they are here illegally.

The millions of Mexicans here need to team up and overtake their corrupt government and the drug lords (if there's a difference). Take back their own country.




Problem is they can stop anyone at anytime and ask them to produce proof of status. Don't got proof - going to jail.

As someone said above "Your papers?"

[nunaem]

Read some comments on huffington post....its amazing that so many people really think they have "rights" here when they are here illegally.


So where do their rights come from? Government papers?

[crazychicken]

[quote]Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer today signed a controversial immigration bill into state law, advancing a politically charged debate that is already having reverberations in Washington.

PRAISE GOD FROM WHOM ALL BLESSINGS FLOW!!

Govenor Jan Brewer-----Finally someone with balls!!

If anyone doesn't like what I just said----I really don't give a shit!!!

crazychicken

[nunaem]

PRAISE GOD FROM WHOM ALL BLESSINGS FLOW!!

...But not rights. :oo-->

Or did god only give rights to those born on American soil?

[MarketNeutral]

Just because your white that does not mean you will not be stopped. :oo-->

Fascism. Police State. Here it comes.

Want to get rid of the illegals; Fine the crap out of anyone who hires them, rents/sales a house to them or sales a car to them.

Oh, that would hurt the corporations. No, allow everyone to have to present papers on command, that will work.

Good luck with tourism. :oo-->

[I am me, I am free]

Read some comments on huffington post....its amazing that so many people really think they have "rights" here when they are here illegally.


So where do their rights come from? Government papers?


Exactly

How many people on this forum do not depend upon the corporate state documents for their identity???

[wildcard]

As long as the voters of the state support it then I am for it. Let each state decide for itself, the way it was meant to be.

[philo beddoe]

Bad move there in Arizona. The police state becomes ever more firmly entrenched, step by tiny step.

Halt! Present your papers!
Cheese....whine.....

[Celtic Rogue]

As long as the voters of the state support it then I am for it. Let each state decide for itself, the way it was meant to be.


Right On!!!!! When the Feds refuse to do thier Constitutional Duty and Protect the border from illegals entering then the state must step up and protect the rights and services of the people in the state!

[MarketNeutral]

As long as the voters of the state support it then I am for it. Let each state decide for itself, the way it was meant to be.


That would mean a national ID card system of some sort. Because your state papers may not constitute proof in the next state.

What is your next suggestion - tattoos?

[philo beddoe]

Just because your white that does not mean you will not be stopped. :oo-->

Fascism. Police State. Here it comes.

Want to get rid of the illegals; Fine the crap out of anyone who hires them, rents/sales a house to them or sales a car to them.

Oh, that would hurt the corporations. No, allow everyone to have to present papers on command, that will work.

Good luck with tourism. :oo-->
Truth is...cops can already pull you over for any reason they like....and then ask you for a drivers license.....so fuck the mexicans

[Horn]

Read some comments on huffington post....its amazing that so many people really think they have "rights" here when they are here illegally.

The millions of Mexicans here need to team up and overtake their corrupt government and the drug lords (if there's a difference). Take back their own country.




Problem is they can stop anyone at anytime and ask them to produce proof of status. Don't got proof - going to jail.

As someone said above "Your papers?"


There seems to be something trespassed in the "Reasonable Suspicion" clause with this law.

I'm all for it, not granting law enforcement unmitigated power to stop anyone, even though they do this daily anyway.

Sounds like mama govenor is being setup to be put down by the fed.

[Book]

What is your next suggestion - tattoos?


How 'bout first finishing that Border Wall we paid for already.

;D

[MarketNeutral]

Just because your white that does not mean you will not be stopped. :oo-->

Fascism. Police State. Here it comes.

Want to get rid of the illegals; Fine the crap out of anyone who hires them, rents/sales a house to them or sales a car to them.

Oh, that would hurt the corporations. No, allow everyone to have to present papers on command, that will work.

Good luck with tourism. :oo-->
Truth is...cops can already pull you over for any reason they like....and then ask you for a drivers license.....so f*ck the mexicans


Probable cause - "you look foreign". That could mean European/Canadian/Australian. Nevermind. I forgot who I was talking too. You look at everything from "it will only effect people with other skin colors" certainly not me bent.

[crazychicken]

We have a mining operation in Az. One of the illegals trails pass through a corner of our property.

Most of them are in pretty bad shape food and water wise by the time they get to me.

Everyone who needs help gets it. But I do call the immigration people. ALWAYS!

CC

[EE_]

I like it!
Face the facts, we already live in a police state. I have to comply when stopped, and show my drivers license, proof of insurance, and registration...now the illegal's will have to comply.

Because I'm a nice guy, any illegal parents of legal children that get deported...I am willing to help pay for transportation of these children back to Mexico, to be with their parents.

[I am me, I am free]

Read some comments on huffington post....its amazing that so many people really think they have "rights" here when they are here illegally.

The millions of Mexicans here need to team up and overtake their corrupt government and the drug lords (if there's a difference). Take back their own country.




Problem is they can stop anyone at anytime and ask them to produce proof of status. Don't got proof - going to jail.

As someone said above "Your papers?"


There seems to be something trespassed in the "Reasonable Suspicion" clause with this law.

I'm all for it, not granting law enforcement unmitigated power to stop anyone, even though they do this daily anyway.




'They' do this daily because *we* allow them to get away with it by our silence (silence is acceptance).

Not only that, those who have accepted the privilege of the DRIVER LICENSE have accepted the terms and conditions of same, and one of those terms/conditions is to produce/display the DRIVER LICENSE upon the demand of an actor/agent of the corporate state.

[philo beddoe]

Just because your white that does not mean you will not be stopped. :oo-->

Fascism. Police State. Here it comes.

Want to get rid of the illegals; Fine the crap out of anyone who hires them, rents/sales a house to them or sales a car to them.

Oh, that would hurt the corporations. No, allow everyone to have to present papers on command, that will work.

Good luck with tourism. :oo-->
Truth is...cops can already pull you over for any reason they like....and then ask you for a drivers license.....so f*ck the mexicans


Probable cause - "you look foreign". That could mean European/Canadian/Australian. Nevermind. I forgot who I was talking too. You look at everything from "it will only effect people with other skin colors" certainly not me bent.
There comes a time in everyones life when the need to decide what they believe in. You want that semi retarded mestizo in the picture above fucking your daughter?

[Horn]

Governor Jan, bound for glory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sbx5LVoSEw

[Book]

Bad move there in Arizona. The police state becomes ever more firmly entrenched, step by tiny step.

Halt! Present your papers!


http://www.waltsense.com/storage/articles/20090505_lowrider.jpg

Yeah...us regular citizens will be constantly harassed due to racial profiling because the police can't tell us from them...lol.

[wildcard]

As long as the voters of the state support it then I am for it. Let each state decide for itself, the way it was meant to be.


That would mean a national ID card system of some sort. Because your state papers may not constitute proof in the next state.

What is your next suggestion - tattoos?


Localism is the opposite of globalism.

[MarketNeutral]

I say again:

Want to get rid of the illegals; Fine the crap out of anyone who hires them, rents/sales a house to them or sales a car to them.

Slap 2 or 3 corporations/individuals with a $250K fine and 3 years in jail and see how fast they leave when they can't get a job, get a place to live or buy transportation because of the fear of a $250K fine and jail time. The people that give them a job, rent/sell them housing and sell them vehciles are enablers. Smash the enablers and you end the problem.

[Horn]

I say again:

Want to get rid of the illegals; Fine the crap out of anyone who hires them, rents/sales a house to them or sales a car to them.



That's 1/2 of her constituents... :CS

[MarketNeutral]

I say again:

Want to get rid of the illegals; Fine the crap out of anyone who hires them, rents/sales a house to them or sales a car to them.



That's 1/2 of her constituents... :CS


Bingo.

Sorry Maria you can't leave the house because they may deport you. So you get to be on call 24/7 to service my needs.

[wildcard]

They lay around 50 to a house. If they are not employed they STEAL what they need. They aren't going anywhere until we BOOT their worthless asses out.

[JohnQPublic]

This is a very mixed situation.

It does represent a much more intrusive police state in AZ, and the allusions to nazi policing are not completely wrong. It also punishes illegals who are practically invited into the state by those who want them (which is most people with lawns, restauraunts, etc.).

On the flip side, a US state has finally stood up to the failed and corrupt federal government.

[Grand Master Melon]

I say again:

Want to get rid of the illegals; Fine the crap out of anyone who hires them, rents/sales a house to them or sales a car to them.

Slap 2 or 3 corporations/individuals with a $250K fine and 3 years in jail and see how fast they leave when they can't get a job, get a place to live or buy transportation because of the fear of a $250K fine and jail time. The people that give them a job, rent/sell them housing and sell them vehciles are enablers. Smash the enablers and you end the problem.




While you're right that those who hire illegals and exploit them should be held criminally responsible, how does one ascertain whether someone is legal or not without verifying some sort of documentation?

[JohnQPublic]

Bad move there in Arizona. The police state becomes ever more firmly entrenched, step by tiny step.

Halt! Present your papers!


http://www.waltsense.com/storage/articles/20090505_lowrider.jpg

Yeah...us regular citizens will be constantly harassed due to racial profiling because the police can't tell us from them...lol.


Come on. Half of legal Arizona has brown skin. And 1/2 of the other half have tans.

Many of the illegals live in their own homes (maybe rented but sometimes owned) and dress just as well as many of the legals.

[wildcard]

I say again:

Want to get rid of the illegals; Fine the crap out of anyone who hires them, rents/sales a house to them or sales a car to them.

Slap 2 or 3 corporations/individuals with a $250K fine and 3 years in jail and see how fast they leave when they can't get a job, get a place to live or buy transportation because of the fear of a $250K fine and jail time. The people that give them a job, rent/sell them housing and sell them vehciles are enablers. Smash the enablers and you end the problem.





While you're right that those who hire illegals and exploit them should be held criminally responsible, how does one ascertain whether someone is legal or not without verifying some sort of documentation?



Oh! He's got you there! 8)

[MarketNeutral]

I say again:

Want to get rid of the illegals; Fine the crap out of anyone who hires them, rents/sales a house to them or sales a car to them.

Slap 2 or 3 corporations/individuals with a $250K fine and 3 years in jail and see how fast they leave when they can't get a job, get a place to live or buy transportation because of the fear of a $250K fine and jail time. The people that give them a job, rent/sell them housing and sell them vehciles are enablers. Smash the enablers and you end the problem.




While you're right that those who hire illegals and exploit them should be held criminally responsible, how does one ascertain whether someone is legal or not without verifying some sort of documentation?


For employment they have to present a social security number or tax ID number.

Once people realize that "foreign looking" does not only mean Mexican looking then we can talk. Phoenix and Tucson has a growing illegal Russian mafia problem brewing. Do they look Mexican?

[silverblood]

This law is incredibly wrong-headed. I'm appalled to see so many people who profess to value liberty cheer the expansion of State-sponsored tyranny against people who are ostensibly free.

Do you think this law applies only to illegal aliens? It doesn't. It applies to every person in the State of Arizona! How will you like it if a cop stops you and demands that you prove that you have a right to be there, or that you are a US citizen?

Jan Brewer does not uphold or protect the rights of the people of Arizona. Rather, she consigns them all to unconscionable aggression at the hand of her law enforcers. This is going to backfire on the people of Arizona. People will someday rue the power they give to the State.

[wildcard]

I say again:

Want to get rid of the illegals; Fine the crap out of anyone who hires them, rents/sales a house to them or sales a car to them.

Slap 2 or 3 corporations/individuals with a $250K fine and 3 years in jail and see how fast they leave when they can't get a job, get a place to live or buy transportation because of the fear of a $250K fine and jail time. The people that give them a job, rent/sell them housing and sell them vehciles are enablers. Smash the enablers and you end the problem.




While you're right that those who hire illegals and exploit them should be held criminally responsible, how does one ascertain whether someone is legal or not without verifying some sort of documentation?


For employment they have to present a social security number or tax ID number.

Once people realize that "foreign looking" does not only mean Mexican looking then we can talk. Phoenix and Tucson has a growing illegal Russian mafia problem brewing. Do they look Mexican?


Unless they're joos I'd say they'll be the first victims of this bill.

[JohnQPublic]

I say again:

Want to get rid of the illegals; Fine the crap out of anyone who hires them, rents/sales a house to them or sales a car to them.

Slap 2 or 3 corporations/individuals with a $250K fine and 3 years in jail and see how fast they leave when they can't get a job, get a place to live or buy transportation because of the fear of a $250K fine and jail time. The people that give them a job, rent/sell them housing and sell them vehciles are enablers. Smash the enablers and you end the problem.




While you're right that those who hire illegals and exploit them should be held criminally responsible, how does one ascertain whether someone is legal or not without verifying some sort of documentation?


For employment they have to present a social security number or tax ID number.

...

I think a lot of illegals have managed to get SSNs. Not sure this helps much.

[wildcard]

This law is incredibly wrong-headed. I'm appalled to see so many people who profess to value liberty cheer the expansion of State-sponsored tyranny against people who are ostensibly free.

Do you think this law applies only to illegal aliens? It doesn't. It applies to every person in the State of Arizona! How will you like it if a cop stops you and demands that you prove that you have a right to be there, or that you are a US citizen?

Jan Brewer does not uphold or protect the rights of the people of Arizona. Rather, she consigns them all to unconscionable aggression at the hand of her law enforcers. This is going to backfire on the people of Arizona. People will someday rue the power they give to the State.


While it's not a perfect solution, at least they may get a few murderers and rapists off the streets that are TRUE threats to Americans instead of spending trillions to kill muzzes that have never even seen an American.

[wildcard]

I say again:

Want to get rid of the illegals; Fine the crap out of anyone who hires them, rents/sales a house to them or sales a car to them.

Slap 2 or 3 corporations/individuals with a $250K fine and 3 years in jail and see how fast they leave when they can't get a job, get a place to live or buy transportation because of the fear of a $250K fine and jail time. The people that give them a job, rent/sell them housing and sell them vehciles are enablers. Smash the enablers and you end the problem.




While you're right that those who hire illegals and exploit them should be held criminally responsible, how does one ascertain whether someone is legal or not without verifying some sort of documentation?


For employment they have to present a social security number or tax ID number.

...

I think a lot of illegals have managed to get SSNs. Not sure this helps much.


OF COURSE THEY HAVE. And if they need yours they'll steal your identity. Unintended consequences.

*telling people that don't belong here to get the fuck out isn't a crime.

[Grand Master Melon]

I say again:

Want to get rid of the illegals; Fine the crap out of anyone who hires them, rents/sales a house to them or sales a car to them.

Slap 2 or 3 corporations/individuals with a $250K fine and 3 years in jail and see how fast they leave when they can't get a job, get a place to live or buy transportation because of the fear of a $250K fine and jail time. The people that give them a job, rent/sell them housing and sell them vehciles are enablers. Smash the enablers and you end the problem.




While you're right that those who hire illegals and exploit them should be held criminally responsible, how does one ascertain whether someone is legal or not without verifying some sort of documentation?


For employment they have to present a social security number or tax ID number.

Once people realize that "foreign looking" does not only mean Mexican looking then we can talk. Phoenix and Tucson has a growing illegal Russian mafia problem brewing. Do they look Mexican?


And in the rest of one's life outside of the HR office what does one do to prove their legality?

As a resident of the central desert of Arizona I'm more than familiar with various problems that we have.

[philo beddoe]

This law is incredibly wrong-headed. I'm appalled to see so many people who profess to value liberty cheer the expansion of State-sponsored tyranny against people who are ostensibly free.

Do you think this law applies only to illegal aliens? It doesn't. It applies to every person in the State of Arizona! How will you like it if a cop stops you and demands that you prove that you have a right to be there, or that you are a US citizen?

Jan Brewer does not uphold or protect the rights of the people of Arizona. Rather, she consigns them all to unconscionable aggression at the hand of her law enforcers. This is going to backfire on the people of Arizona. People will someday rue the power they give to the State.
Did you get an A in high school drama?

[MarketNeutral]

I say again:

Want to get rid of the illegals; Fine the crap out of anyone who hires them, rents/sales a house to them or sales a car to them.

Slap 2 or 3 corporations/individuals with a $250K fine and 3 years in jail and see how fast they leave when they can't get a job, get a place to live or buy transportation because of the fear of a $250K fine and jail time. The people that give them a job, rent/sell them housing and sell them vehciles are enablers. Smash the enablers and you end the problem.




While you're right that those who hire illegals and exploit them should be held criminally responsible, how does one ascertain whether someone is legal or not without verifying some sort of documentation?


For employment they have to present a social security number or tax ID number.

...

I think a lot of illegals have managed to get SSNs. Not sure this helps much.


It is more of a case the employeers do not verify that the SSN number provided is vaild. If the prospect gives them a SSN then that is as far as it goes "Can you start picking lettuce, now?". If the SSN is not verfied to be valid then a $250K fine to the company and the hiring official gets a $250K fine and 3 years in jail. It is the employeers responsibility to ensure the data provided by the prospective employee is valid.

[silverblood]

This law is incredibly wrong-headed. I'm appalled to see so many people who profess to value liberty cheer the expansion of State-sponsored tyranny against people who are ostensibly free.

Do you think this law applies only to illegal aliens? It doesn't. It applies to every person in the State of Arizona! How will you like it if a cop stops you and demands that you prove that you have a right to be there, or that you are a US citizen?

Jan Brewer does not uphold or protect the rights of the people of Arizona. Rather, she consigns them all to unconscionable aggression at the hand of her law enforcers. This is going to backfire on the people of Arizona. People will someday rue the power they give to the State.


While it's not a perfect solution, at least they may get a few murderers and rapists off the streets that are TRUE threats to Americans instead of spending trillions to kill muzzes that have never even seen an American.


So what are you implying? That because this law may get a few murderers and rapists off the streets, that it is worth everyone giving up more of their liberty? Sort of like the Patriot Act, right? Did you support that reduction of your liberties too because it might help catch a few terrorists?

You are darn right it's not a perfect solution. In fact, it's not a solution to anything at all. Murder and rape are already illegal. You don't need a new law to go after those who commit such crimes. Painting illegals as murderers and rapists to justify a bad law is intellectually dishonest. It's nothing more than an unfounded appeal to emotion. That was not the point of the law, nor will it be its effect on the people of Arizona.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

[wildcard]

So you would turn the employer into big brother? The police are supposed to POLICE. If I am a farmer I want to make a profit, I can not do this if I need a clerk and office full time running down people's identity. No, the action lays with the police.

[silverblood]

As long as the voters of the state support it then I am for it. Let each state decide for itself, the way it was meant to be.


Democracy is arguably the worst form of government ever devised.

Be sure to read the quotes of the founding fathers in this article:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/chu6.html

[wildcard]

Hey, if its what the voter's of AZ want then that's their business. If the fed gov rams the patriot act down our throats to kill muzzes for israel they can at least look the other way when the citizens of the state want to protect themselves from a genuine threat.

[wildcard]

As long as the voters of the state support it then I am for it. Let each state decide for itself, the way it was meant to be.


Democracy is arguably the worst form of government ever devised.

Be sure to read the quotes of the founding fathers in this article:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/chu6.html



Don't worry, all those anchor babies won't grow up to vote themselves benefits. I'm certain of it.

*and it's more than a *few* murderers and rapists. You need to check the prison stats and costs.

[wildcard]

I wonder how many Arizonans have died from illegals drunk driving vs how many Arizonans have died fighting terrists.

[silverblood]

I wonder how many Arizonans have died from illegals drunk driving vs how many Arizonans have died fighting terrists.


How about the number of Arizonans who have died from "legals" drunk driving? But you would prefer to compare unrelated events. If drunk driving is a problem, go after the drunk drivers. Citizenship has nothing to do with it.

In post after post, you are scapegoating illegals using examples that are applicable to people of any status. I don't believe you are stupid. What is your agenda? Are you truly the staunch Statist you appear to be in this thread, or is there some other reason that you are expressing principles in this thread that are irrationally incongruent to your liberty-oriented posts in other threads?

[philo beddoe]

I wonder how many Arizonans have died from illegals drunk driving vs how many Arizonans have died fighting terrists.


How about the number of Arizonans who have died from "legals" drunk driving? But you would prefer to compare unrelated events. If drunk driving is a problem, go after the drunk drivers. Citizenship has nothing to do with it.

In post after post, you are scapegoating illegals using examples that are applicable to people of any status. I don't believe you are stupid. What is your agenda? Are you truly the staunch Statist you appear to be in this thread, or is there some other reason that you are expressing principles in this thread that are irrationally incongruent to your liberty-oriented posts in other threads?
Whats your agenda ulysses?

[silverblood]

I wonder how many Arizonans have died from illegals drunk driving vs how many Arizonans have died fighting terrists.


How about the number of Arizonans who have died from "legals" drunk driving? But you would prefer to compare unrelated events. If drunk driving is a problem, go after the drunk drivers. Citizenship has nothing to do with it.

In post after post, you are scapegoating illegals using examples that are applicable to people of any status. I don't believe you are stupid. What is your agenda? Are you truly the staunch Statist you appear to be in this thread, or is there some other reason that you are expressing principles in this thread that are irrationally incongruent to your liberty-oriented posts in other threads?
Whats your agenda ulysses?


I don't know who you or what you are referring to. Care to explain?

[wildcard]

Statist? ROFL. I leave it to the voters of AZ and you try to twist it into direct democracy. What would you do? Nothing? Leave the people of your state to a roving band of invading barbarians?

The truth is illegals are causing a lot of trouble. Ignore it? I say no, if that makes me a statist then so be it.

*not mention the costs they are inflicting on taxpayers. And the pain and suffering from those they murder, rape, hurt.

[wildcard]

And these turds will vote socialism every chance they get. So trying to use "democracy" here is a laugh.

[silverblood]

Statist? ROFL. I leave it to the voters of AZ and you try to twist it into direct democracy. What would you do? Nothing? Leave the people of your state to a roving band of invading barbarians?

The truth is illegals are causing a lot of trouble. Ignore it? I say no, if that makes me a statist then so be it.


I would eliminate the State altogether, and borders along with it. I'd leave to each individual the right to associate with whomever they choose to associate.

No one who supports the existence of the State can claim any moral high ground. The State is force, coercion, and aggression. If you vote, you are guilty of violence.

[JohnQPublic]

I say again:

Want to get rid of the illegals; Fine the crap out of anyone who hires them, rents/sales a house to them or sales a car to them.

Slap 2 or 3 corporations/individuals with a $250K fine and 3 years in jail and see how fast they leave when they can't get a job, get a place to live or buy transportation because of the fear of a $250K fine and jail time. The people that give them a job, rent/sell them housing and sell them vehciles are enablers. Smash the enablers and you end the problem.




While you're right that those who hire illegals and exploit them should be held criminally responsible, how does one ascertain whether someone is legal or not without verifying some sort of documentation?


For employment they have to present a social security number or tax ID number.

...

I think a lot of illegals have managed to get SSNs. Not sure this helps much.


It is more of a case the employeers do not verify that the SSN number provided is vaild. If the prospect gives them a SSN then that is as far as it goes "Can you start picking lettuce, now?". If the SSN is not verfied to be valid then a $250K fine to the company and the hiring official gets a $250K fine and 3 years in jail. It is the employeers responsibility to ensure the data provided by the prospective employee is valid.


Here's one way to do it:

link (http://fredfryinternational.blogspot.com/2007/09/how-illegal-aliens-get-social-security.html)

I thought they were able to do it in other ways somewhat legally.

[silverblood]

*not mention the costs they are inflicting on taxpayers. And the pain and suffering from those they murder, rape, hurt.


Ah yes, evidence of the slave mentality. Rather than railing against your masters who squeeze you for taxes at every turn, you accuse others of sucking on the teat you wish to reserve to yourself.

And all the generalizations about those you vilify again demonstrate your irrelevant scapegoating tactics.

[wildcard]

The state exists to protect its citizens. Try your lofty idealism and see what happens. They'll slit your throat and raise the flag of mexico on your land.

*feel free to list the benefits that illegals bring to the state of Arizona.

[JohnQPublic]

Again, I have to say,

This is a very mixed situation.

It does represent a much more intrusive police state in AZ, and the allusions to nazi policing are not completely wrong. It also punishes illegals who are practically invited into the state by those who want them (which is most people with lawns, restauraunts, etc.).

On the flip side, a US state has finally stood up to the failed and corrupt federal government.

[silverblood]

And these turds will vote socialism every chance they get. So trying to use "democracy" here is a laugh.


Are you so wrapped up in your own ineffective arguments that you don't recall that it was you who appealed to the mighty god of democracy? I'm sure as hell not a voter.

[wildcard]

This is still a representative republic. When the governor carries out the will of those she represents you cry democracy.

[wildcard]

The state is a necessary evil, just for this sort of thing. Left unchecked there will be no citizens left or a country for that matter.

[silverblood]

This is still a representative republic. When the governor carries out the will of those she represents you cry democracy.


You kid yourself. Representation is a fiction. An oligarchy rules.

[wildcard]

Well, left between the governor's choice and your ideas about dropping the borders..., I'll go with the gov.

[wildcard]

I know we already hashed this out on GIM, and in the end you guys couldn't produce an example of a free civilization without borders that prospered (or even survived) (unless it was far removed from all others)

[mick silver]

I say again:

Want to get rid of the illegals; Fine the crap out of anyone who hires them, rents/sales a house to them or sales a car to them.

Slap 2 or 3 corporations/individuals with a $250K fine and 3 years in jail and see how fast they leave when they can't get a job, get a place to live or buy transportation because of the fear of a $250K fine and jail time. The people that give them a job, rent/sell them housing and sell them vehciles are enablers. Smash the enablers and you end the problem.

that would be the best way to do it but there not going to mess with there companys

[wildcard]

It is unreasonable to expect a small business owner to verify* the ID of all his employees. The border should be enforced by the government.

[silverblood]

I know we already hashed this out on GIM, and in the end you guys couldn't produce an example of a free civilization without borders that prospered (or even survived) (unless it was far removed from all others)


The fact that something hasn't been accomplished yet doesn't mean that the idea is without merit. Countless real-world examples abound. No technological or social advance would be possible if a prior successful example were necessary to validate the concept under development. There would be no point to continued scientific and social research were that the case.

[wildcard]

You've been watching too much Star Trek friend.

[silverblood]

It is unreasonable to expect a small business owner to verify* the ID of all his employees. The border should be enforced by the government.


No, it is not unreasonable for a business owner to set qualifications and hire or fire accordingly. What is unreasonable is for the government to force the business owner to do so. That makes a mockery of freedom of association.

[wildcard]

Well you just diddy bop on down to the border and try to walk across without showing some ID. Let us know how that turns out. Even better try it from the southern side of Mexico.

[mick silver]

if i am right you can not come in to mexico from the south border yet they dont care if you run here from the north border

[Horn]

It is unreasonable to expect a small business owner to verify* the ID of all his employees. The border should be enforced by the government.


This is how Costa Rica handles it, if an outsider is used without permit the company is penalized (low also). Most outsiders go to get temporary work permits & pay the necessary low insurance fees.

They have tons of Niccas crossing back & forth over the boarder daily.

Paying the regular fees of course.

[Grand Master Melon]

if i am right you can not come in to mexico from the south border yet they dont care if you run here from the north border


I don't know whether or not that is true but I do know firsthand that many Mexicans think little of those who reside south of their southern border.

[wildcard]

It is unreasonable to expect a small business owner to verify* the ID of all his employees. The border should be enforced by the government.


This is how Costa Rica handles it, if an outsider is used without permit the company is penalized. Most outsiders go to get temporary work permits & pay the necessary low insurance fees.

They have tons of Niccas crossing back & forth over the boarder daily.

Paying the regular fees of course.


Of course then it just becomes a payola scam instead of the gov doing it's job in the first place. Why should a business owner be penalized because someone is here illegally.

[Horn]

It is unreasonable to expect a small business owner to verify* the ID of all his employees. The border should be enforced by the government.


This is how Costa Rica handles it, if an outsider is used without permit the company is penalized. Most outsiders go to get temporary work permits & pay the necessary low insurance fees.

They have tons of Niccas crossing back & forth over the boarder daily.

Paying the regular fees of course.


Of course then it just becomes a payola scam instead of the gov doing it's job in the first place. Why should a business owner be penalized because someone is here illegally.


Because they put their country first?

[JohnQPublic]

if i am right you can not come in to mexico from the south border yet they dont care if you run here from the north border


I don't know whether or not that is true but I do know firsthand that many Mexicans think little of those who reside south of their southern border.


I know that vice-versa is true, too. There is a film about the Southern crossing called El Norte that is supposed to be pretty good (I have not seen it). My understanding is that Mexico is very strict on their southern border. On the other hand a lot of Gutemalans and Central Americans do get through and are living in southern Mexico (though most that get thtough are actually headed north to the US). The peoples are very similar (Guatemalans and southern Mexican indigenous are both from Mayan roots, so they blend in together).

[Kali]

TPTB have everyone in this country so twisted its almost laughable. I know they're laughing.

You can't even get two people on this forum to agree on anything and for the most part we are all of like minds.

Incredible.

I guess that's why we call them "The Powers".

[Fudup]

After reading this whole pile, and not knowing the full extent of the new law in Arizona I have to say this.


I agree that any nation that will not protect its borders is doomed to be conquered, either militarily or economically or even by its own democratic processes (in our case). Those that support the infrastructure (citizens) cannot forever support it if the Federal Govt. allows anyone from anywhere in the world to use it for free. As broad as our back is, it cannot support millions of freeloaders.

Send the illegal invader home. Secure the borders, and allow them a chance at legal immigration through channels provided them. America can support legal immigration of people willing to work and pay their own way, in taxes and civilian infrastructure.

Those legal, able bodied citizens who refuse to pay their own way are a whole 'nother matter IMO, and that public supported welfare should also come to an end in a structured manner, because if it is not brought under control, it will stop suddenly and catastrophically.

What will millions of illegals and millions of welfare recipients do when all of a sudden the money does not come in the mail? Will they peacefully protest? No, they will loot and pillage and chaos will engulf our nation, bringing all down.

[Libertytree]

Well said Fudup!

[Ponce]

Yara, yara yara, yara yara yara........the final word is........THEY ARE HERE ILLEGALY, THEY HAVE BROKEN THE LAW anything else to me is only yara yara yara.

[zap]

After reading this whole pile, and not knowing the full extent of the new law in Arizona I have to say this.


I agree that any nation that will not protect its borders is doomed to be conquered, either militarily or economically or even by its own democratic processes (in our case). Those that support the infrastructure (citizens) cannot forever support it if the Federal Govt. allows anyone from anywhere in the world to use it for free. As broad as our back is, it cannot support millions of freeloaders.

Send the illegal invader home. Secure the borders, and allow them a chance at legal immigration through channels provided them. America can support legal immigration of people willing to work and pay their own way, in taxes and civilian infrastructure.

Those legal, able bodied citizens who refuse to pay their own way are a whole 'nother matter IMO, and that public supported welfare should also come to an end in a structured manner, because if it is not brought under control, it will stop suddenly and catastrophically.

What will millions of illegals and millions of welfare recipients do when all of a sudden the money does not come in the mail? Will they peacefully protest? No, they will loot and pillage and chaos will engulf our nation, bringing all down.



I Agree

[silverblood]

TPTB have everyone in this country so twisted its almost laughable. I know they're laughing.

You can't even get two people on this forum to agree on anything and for the most part we are all of like minds.

Incredible.

I guess that's why we call them "The Powers".




No, we are not of like mind on this board, not for the most part as you say. It is a gross conceit to imagine that we are. There are a large number of people on this forum who pretend to love liberty, yet who advocate State-sponsored aggression. There is ample evidence in just this thread alone. At best, these forum members believe in liberty for some, but not liberty for all. They don't believe that liberty is the natural condition of man, but rather that it is a privilege bestowed on them by benevolent overlords whom they imagine they control by the might of their vote.

Those people are either knowing advocates of a false kind of liberty, or they are possessed of simple minds, or they have folded, spindled, and mutilated the concept of liberty to the point that no one who simply uses the word in its nominal and plain-language sense would ever recognize it.

Read this thread carefully, and note the frequent constructs that belie the deeply ingrained slave mentality, the worship of the State, the support for State-sponsored aggression, the implicit defense of taxation, the validation of socialist welfare, the protectionist stance toward coercively-funded entitlements, but only for those who pay taxes. My god, "we this", "our that", "us", "them", how much more of a slave can they be? Because they cannot imagine a life of true independence, a life where they alone are responsible for their well being, and they can't even envision not being subservient to their rulers, they not only defend their masters right to enslave them, but clamor for yet more chains. Chains and restrictions and a new gun to their heads like this stupid law in Arizona.

It amazes me that people who believe they are more knowledgeable than their fellows, who profess to be awakened to the plans and the machinations of TPTB, who imagine themselves to be thoughtful, intelligent, and insightful observers of the world around them, nevertheless beg to lick and fondle their master's balls.

I say categorically that if you support this new law in Arizona, you are either a government shill, a masochistic self-flagellant, an enemy of liberty, or a feeble-minded moron.

For many this forum is their home for gold, silver, slavery, aggression, and hateful spite. Not a place for enlightenment, and certainly not a place to celebrate liberty.

If you believe liberty exists only for you, and not for everyone, you deserve to be ruled.

[philo beddoe]

TPTB have everyone in this country so twisted its almost laughable. I know they're laughing.

You can't even get two people on this forum to agree on anything and for the most part we are all of like minds.

Incredible.

I guess that's why we call them "The Powers".




No, we are not of like mind on this board, not for the most part as you say. It is a gross conceit to imagine that we are. There are a large number of people on this forum who pretend to love liberty, yet who advocate State-sponsored aggression. There is ample evidence in just this thread alone. At best, these forum members believe in liberty for some, but not liberty for all. They don't believe that liberty is the natural condition of man, but rather that it is a privilege bestowed on them by benevolent overlords whom they imagine they control by the might of their vote.

Those people are either knowing advocates of a false kind of liberty, or they are possessed of simple minds, or they have folded, spindled, and mutilated the concept of liberty to the point that no one who simply uses the word in its nominal and plain-language sense would ever recognize it.

Read this thread carefully, and note the frequent constructs that belie the deeply ingrained slave mentality, the worship of the State, the support for State-sponsored aggression, the implicit defense of taxation, the validation of socialist welfare, the protectionist stance toward coercively-funded entitlements, but only for those who pay taxes. My god, "we this", "our that", "us", "them", how much more of a slave can they be? Because they cannot imagine a life of true independence, a life where they alone are responsible for their well being, and they can't even envision not being subservient to their rulers, they not only defend their masters right to enslave them, but clamor for yet more chains. Chains and restrictions and a new gun to their heads like this stupid law in Arizona.

It amazes me that people who believe they are more knowledgeable than their fellows, who profess to be awakened to the plans and the machinations of TPTB, who imagine themselves to be thoughtful, intelligent, and insightful observers of the world around them, nevertheless beg to lick and fondle their master's balls.

I say categorically that if you support this new law in Arizona, you are either a government shill, a masochistic self-flagellant, an enemy of liberty, or a feeble-minded moron.

For many this forum is their home for gold, silver, slavery, aggression, and hateful spite. Not a place for enlightenment, and certainly not a place to celebrate liberty.

If you believe liberty exists only for you, and not for everyone, you deserve to be ruled.
I gotta hand it to ya sliverblood/masonic plot/ulysses/cosmo whatever, you certainly only spend your time spamming the best threds. The ADL must of sent out an APB for this one.

[philo beddoe]

Statist? ROFL. I leave it to the voters of AZ and you try to twist it into direct democracy. What would you do? Nothing? Leave the people of your state to a roving band of invading barbarians?

The truth is illegals are causing a lot of trouble. Ignore it? I say no, if that makes me a statist then so be it.


I would eliminate the State altogether, and borders along with it. I'd leave to each individual the right to associate with whomever they choose to associate.

No one who supports the existence of the State can claim any moral high ground. The State is force, coercion, and aggression. If you vote, you are guilty of violence.
Guilty schmilty. I would love if the state imploded. When the mexis attack (and they will) whites won't have to wait for the court and police to do nothing. But of course you will be on the corner preaching your libertarian brotherly love mumbo jumbo.

[silverblood]

I don't know who you are philo, but you don't know me either. I haven't got a clue what you are rambling on about. I assume you think I'm someone else.

I'm an individual anarchist, a philosophical anarchist, an anarcho-capitalist, a voluntaryist, and an avowed Enemy of the State. I'm not from the ADL nor am I Jewish.

[philo beddoe]

Then you're worse because you believe in nothing.

[Book]

I'm an individual anarchist, a philosophical anarchist, an anarcho-capitalist, a voluntaryist, and an avowed Enemy of the State. I'm not from the ADL nor am I Jewish.


http://www.guy-sports.com/fun_pictures/foxindogs.jpg

Destroy the dog pack by forbidding butt-sniffing and yard fencing. An obvious external enemy of the pack...lol.

:D

[silverblood]

Then you're worse because you believe in nothing.


I believe in liberty. You prefer slavery. Your kind is common. I realize I'm in the minority.

[Book]

Then you're worse because you believe in nothing.


I believe in liberty.


Freedom for trespassers and fence jumpers and infiltrators...lol.

Woof woof!

:D

[EE_]

Does this mean we won't be seeing anymore illegal immigration rallies in AZ?

http://www.outragedpatriots.com/Mexican%20Flag%20Above%20American%20Upside%20Down% 20Flag-small.jpg

This might put a crimp in their plan?
http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/aztlan-reconquista.gif

[silverblood]

Then you're worse because you believe in nothing.


I believe in liberty.


Freedom for trespassers and fence jumpers and infiltrators...lol.

Woof woof!

:D


That you could formulate such a thought demonstrates your inability to comprehend liberty, lol. You must think that life as treasured livestock makes you free.

[Book]

That you could formulate such a thought demonstrates your inability to comprehend...


Whoever disagrees with Silverblood demonstrates an inability to comprehend...lol.

:oo-->

[wildcard]

Let's hold hands and get on the bus to this lovely imaginary place where everyone loves each other and borders aren't necessary. :oo-->

[Horn]

Everybody is entitled to have there entitlements, silverblood.

Whether it be hiring illegal aliens, or having LEO take care of the problem it causes.

[wildcard]

I never did get that list of benefits that illegal immigrants provide to America.

[MarketNeutral]

Representative Republic?

Arizona has a population of 6.6M of that 500K are estimated to be illegals as of July 2009. (and we know the illegals have been leaving because of the housing market crash and the lose of construction jobs)

So 7.5% are controlling the movement of 92.5%.

That seems like reverse representation.

[silverblood]

Let's hold hands and get on the bus to this lovely imaginary place where everyone loves each other and borders aren't necessary. :oo-->


You really like to make stuff up. Hyperbole must be far more subtle to be effective.

[wildcard]

I already asked you to provide one working example in all of history. I believe your answer was "well, just because you can't see one doesn't mean it doesn't exist", I believe that is the same argument they use for black holes.

[wildcard]

Representative Republic?

Arizona has a population of 6.6M of that 500K are estimated to be illegals as of July 2009. (and we know the illegals have been leaving because of the housing market crash and the lose of construction jobs)

So 7.5% are controlling the movement of 92.5%.

That seems like reverse representation.


The government representing its constituents, what a crazy idea!

*instead of illegal invaders.

[MarketNeutral]

I never did get that list of benefits that illegal immigrants provide to America.


Child care, landscaping, cleaning, cooking, restaurants, garbage collection, food servers/preparers, building McMansions, picking fruits/vegs, pool construction, chicken/beef butchers, pouring concrete, car washing, manual laborers.

Have you every worked outside for a full day in 115 degrees? Do you think an obsese lazy American teenager is going to pick lettuce for $7 an hour in direct sunlight when it is 110 in the shade, 7 days a week when items in season got to be harvasted?

[silverblood]

I never did get that list of benefits that illegal immigrants provide to America.


I can't imagine why you think you should benefit by another person's decision to move and live somewhere else. Who do you think these hypothetical benefits should accrue to?

[wildcard]

What a load of crap. America was built before the mexi's invaded. All jobs Americans can do.

[MarketNeutral]

Representative Republic?

Arizona has a population of 6.6M of that 500K are estimated to be illegals as of July 2009. (and we know the illegals have been leaving because of the housing market crash and the lose of construction jobs)

So 7.5% are controlling the movement of 92.5%.

That seems like reverse representation.


The government representing its constituents, what a crazy idea!

*instead of illegal invaders.


You still don't grasp "foreign looking" does not mean Mexican looking. :oo-->

[Book]

I never did get that list of benefits that illegal immigrants provide to America.


They keep our mind off the trillions of dollars the Zionist Banksters are stealing. That's why the ADL supports illegal immigration and promotes conditions leading to race wars.

Distraction and misdirection away from the Chosenites..

[silverblood]

I already asked you to provide one working example in all of history. I believe your answer was "well, just because you can't see one doesn't mean it doesn't exist", I believe that is the same argument they use for black holes.


Examples aren't relevant. That was the point of my previous statement, which evidently went over your head.

[wildcard]

Oh yes! There is good fishing in troubled waters!

[Book]

Do you think an obsese lazy American teenager is going to pick lettuce for $7 an hour in direct sunlight when it is 110 in the shade, 7 days a week when items in season got to be harvasted?


Raise the wages and improve the working conditions and Whitey will return to agriculture pronto.

:oo-->

[MarketNeutral]

What a load of crap. America was built before the mexi's invaded. All jobs Americans can do.


America was built by Chinese and African slaves. :oo-->

Time to harvest the strawberries:

http://www.echoroukonline.com/eng/thumbnail.php?file=obese_teenagers_587566123.jpg&size=article_medium

[wildcard]

A working example > some harebrained idealist theory. You know why there is no example? Why there will never be an example? Because the second you drop your guard I'm gonna come over and claim your resources for my own.

[silverblood]

What a load of crap. America was built before the mexi's invaded. All jobs Americans can do.


But won't do.

Or do you see them lining up for jobs?

It's still irrelevant. No one needs to prove their benefit to you to have the right to move and live elsewhere.

[wildcard]

What a load of crap. America was built before the mexi's invaded. All jobs Americans can do.


America was built by Chinese and African slaves. :oo-->

Time to harvest the strawberries:

http://www.echoroukonline.com/eng/thumbnail.php?file=obese_teenagers_587566123.jpg&size=article_medium


Haha, then who built all those great houses in the north east around Boston? Must have been French-Canadian slaves. ::)

[silverblood]

Everybody is entitled to have there entitlements, silverblood.

Whether it be hiring illegal aliens, or having LEO take care of the problem it causes.


I guess that's a tautology? I didn't really get it.

[Book]

No one needs to prove their benefit to you to have the right to move and live elsewhere.


Elsewhere...just not here...lol.

:oo-->

[wildcard]

What a load of crap. America was built before the mexi's invaded. All jobs Americans can do.


But won't do.

Or do you see them lining up for jobs?

It's still irrelevant. No one needs to prove their benefit to you to have the right to move and live elsewhere.


Apparently, you're wrong...so says the de facto law in Arizona. :P

[EE_]

I never did get that list of benefits that illegal immigrants provide to America.


Child care, landscaping, cleaning, cooking, restaurants, garbage collection, food servers/preparers, building McMansions, picking fruits/vegs, pool construction, chicken/beef butchers, pouring concrete, car washing, manual laborers.

Have you every worked outside for a full day in 115 degrees? Do you think an obsese lazy American teenager is going to pick lettuce for $7 an hour in direct sunlight when it is 110 in the shade, 7 days a week when items in season got to be harvasted?


Do you think if illegal's were not here, American ingenuity wouldn't figure out how to automate picking lettuce? A kid in an air conditioned booth could run the robotics.
We now have a system that can give you a speeding ticket from space...this would seem like child's play.

[MarketNeutral]

Do you think an obsese lazy American teenager is going to pick lettuce for $7 an hour in direct sunlight when it is 110 in the shade, 7 days a week when items in season got to be harvasted?


Raise the wages and improve the working conditions and Whitey will return to agriculture pronto.

:oo-->


No, that means we will insource more food and the loss of U.S. jobs and destruction of our ability to produce our own food.

[silverblood]

Do you think an obsese lazy American teenager is going to pick lettuce for $7 an hour in direct sunlight when it is 110 in the shade, 7 days a week when items in season got to be harvasted?


Raise the wages and improve the working conditions and Whitey will return to agriculture pronto.

:oo-->


How do you propose doing that? I know, you can vote to pass a law to force farmers to pay higher wages. Now that would promote liberty.

[wildcard]

Do you think an obsese lazy American teenager is going to pick lettuce for $7 an hour in direct sunlight when it is 110 in the shade, 7 days a week when items in season got to be harvasted?


Raise the wages and improve the working conditions and Whitey will return to agriculture pronto.

:oo-->


How do you propose doing that? I know, you can vote to pass a law to force farmers to pay higher wages. Now that would promote liberty.



It's called free market, you should look into it. Farmer joe wants his lettuce picked and he offers 50 cents an hour and gets no takers, he ups his bid until he gets takers. Joe doesn't have illegals that live 50 to a house willing to work for slave wages to undercut the usual workforce.

*conversely joe doesn't pay enough and his crops rot in the field and he loses his farm. It is then turned over to a more successful farmer who profits from its usage.

**his crops rot and less of that produce go to the market. The demand increases with dwindling supply. Consumers pay MORE for that item and allow the NEW farmer to pay more to his workers. See how that works?

[Book]

How do you propose doing that? I know, you can vote to pass a law to force farmers to pay higher wages. Now that would promote liberty.


ELIMINATING ILLEGAL WORKERS will obviously result in higher wages.

:oo-->

[Book]

Farmer joe wants his lettuce picked and he offers 50 cents an hour and gets no takers, he ups his bid until he gets takers. Joe doesn't have illegals that live 50 to a house willing to work for slave wages to undercut the usual workforce.

*conversely joe doesn't pay enough and his crops rot in the field and he loses his farm. It is then turned over to a more successful farmer who profits from its usage.


http://www.thereluctanteater.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/white-house-farm.jpg

Exactly.

:oo-->

[MarketNeutral]

I never did get that list of benefits that illegal immigrants provide to America.


Child care, landscaping, cleaning, cooking, restaurants, garbage collection, food servers/preparers, building McMansions, picking fruits/vegs, pool construction, chicken/beef butchers, pouring concrete, car washing, manual laborers.

Have you every worked outside for a full day in 115 degrees? Do you think an obsese lazy American teenager is going to pick lettuce for $7 an hour in direct sunlight when it is 110 in the shade, 7 days a week when items in season got to be harvasted?


Do you think if illegal's were not here, American ingenuity wouldn't figure out how to automate picking lettuce? A kid in an air conditioned booth could run the robotics.
We now have a system that can give you a speeding ticket from space...this would seem like child's play.


No money in creating a lettuce harvestor when we can just order more from Guatemala.

[MarketNeutral]

Do you think an obsese lazy American teenager is going to pick lettuce for $7 an hour in direct sunlight when it is 110 in the shade, 7 days a week when items in season got to be harvasted?


Raise the wages and improve the working conditions and Whitey will return to agriculture pronto.

:oo-->


How do you propose doing that? I know, you can vote to pass a law to force farmers to pay higher wages. Now that would promote liberty.



It's called free market, you should look into it.

Which is why the U.S. standard of living will continue to go into the shitter. :oo-->

[silverblood]

What a load of crap. America was built before the mexi's invaded. All jobs Americans can do.


But won't do.

Or do you see them lining up for jobs?

It's still irrelevant. No one needs to prove their benefit to you to have the right to move and live elsewhere.


Apparently, you're wrong...so says the de facto law in Arizona. :P



You believe that right and wrong is a matter of legislation?

[wildcard]

I thought you guys were for liberty? If guatamala can grow it cheaper than we can that frees up our land for better stuff. Duh.

[EE_]

[

*conversely joe doesn't pay enough and his crops rot in the field and he loses his farm. It is then turned over to a more successful farmer who profits from its usage.

**his crops rot and less of that produce go to the market. The demand increases with dwindling supply. Consumers pay MORE for that item and allow the NEW farmer to pay more to his workers. See how that works?


Then Joe sells his crops to China, Canada, Europe, etc. and we import the much cheaper crops from Mexico...that are loaded with pesticides because that have no EPA standards

[wildcard]

It goes in the shitter because of turd worlders that will work for SLAVE WAGES and live 50 people to a house. That allows farmer joe to pay jack shit to get his lettuce picked. Joe makes out like a bandit. His workers can't afford the lettuce they picked.

[wildcard]

[

*conversely joe doesn't pay enough and his crops rot in the field and he loses his farm. It is then turned over to a more successful farmer who profits from its usage.

**his crops rot and less of that produce go to the market. The demand increases with dwindling supply. Consumers pay MORE for that item and allow the NEW farmer to pay more to his workers. See how that works?


Then Joe sells his crops to China, Canada, Europe, etc. and we import the much cheaper crops from Mexico...that are loaded with pesticides because that have no EPA standards


Pay more for organic. Free market. Your choice.

*even better grow your own and go into business selling to others.

**and you can't switch sides mid-stream EE. They are fighting the gov. EPA is the EEEEVILL gov that statists worship. (gov isn't supposed to protect its citizens...because borders are wrong)

[Libertytree]

I never did get that list of benefits that illegal immigrants provide to America.


I can't imagine why you think you should benefit by another person's decision to move and live somewhere else. Who do you think these hypothetical benefits should accrue to?


If I may? It's not a matter of benefitting, it's a matter that after a point they're a liability and a detriment to those that pay to have a simple infrastructure. They, like those leeching on the welfare state are over burdening an already failing system. Because of this burden current tax payers are being asked for more to supplement those that pay nothing into the infrastructure.

In addition, I'll add that many, if not most illegals care not a damn about America but only sending currency back to their mother country. I know this 1st hand! They squirrel away our $ so that they can retire on their ranch while the joke is on us stupid gringo's.

[silverblood]

Do you think an obsese lazy American teenager is going to pick lettuce for $7 an hour in direct sunlight when it is 110 in the shade, 7 days a week when items in season got to be harvasted?


Raise the wages and improve the working conditions and Whitey will return to agriculture pronto.

:oo-->


How do you propose doing that? I know, you can vote to pass a law to force farmers to pay higher wages. Now that would promote liberty.



It's called free market, you should look into it. Farmer joe wants his lettuce picked and he offers 50 cents an hour and gets no takers, he ups his bid until he gets takers. Joe doesn't have illegals that live 50 to a house willing to work for slave wages to undercut the usual workforce.

*conversely joe doesn't pay enough and his crops rot in the field and he loses his farm. It is then turned over to a more successful farmer who profits from its usage.

**his crops rot and less of that produce go to the market. The demand increases with dwindling supply. Consumers pay MORE for that item and allow the NEW farmer to pay more to his workers. See how that works?


Your version of a free market is a fairy tale. What really happens is the farmer sells out and moves his operation to Mexico where he can operate with lower overhead because to do otherwise would violate his own self-interest.

[Book]

Which is why the U.S. standard of living will continue to go into the sh*tter. :oo-->


Absolutely but not because the price of lettuce. We ARE doomed MN...lol.

[silverblood]

How do you propose doing that? I know, you can vote to pass a law to force farmers to pay higher wages. Now that would promote liberty.


ELIMINATING ILLEGAL WORKERS will obviously result in higher wages.

:oo-->


No, it will result in reduced availability of formerly cheap goods and services, higher prices for what remains available, and a lower standard of living for those who can't afford the tariff.

[wildcard]

Your version of a free market is a fairy tale. What really happens is the farmer sells out and moves his operation to Mexico where he can operate with lower overhead because to do otherwise would violate his own self-interest.

ROFL. Now you're against someone moving to their own benefit? WTF??? ;D

[wildcard]

I never did get that list of benefits that illegal immigrants provide to America.


I can't imagine why you think you should benefit by another person's decision to move and live somewhere else. Who do you think these hypothetical benefits should accrue to?


If I may? It's not a matter of benefitting, it's a matter that after a point they're a liability and a detriment to those that pay to have a simple infrastructure. They, like those leeching on the welfare state are over burdening an already failing system. Because of this burden current tax payers are being asked for more to supplement those that pay nothing into the infrastructure.

In addition, I'll add that many, if not most illegals care not a damn about America but only sending currency back to their mother country. I know this 1st hand! They squirrel away our $ so that they can retire on their ranch while the joke is on us stupid gringo's.


You're not getting it Libertytree. He doesn't care that the mexicans cost taxpayers money. He wants to do away with all governments and borders and rely on the inherent goodness of man to guide us all through life's journey. ::)

[Grand Master Melon]

Your version of a free market is a fairy tale. What really happens is the farmer sells out and moves his operation to Mexico where he can operate with lower overhead because to do otherwise would violate his own self-interest.


And your version of liberty is realistic?

[Book]

You believe that right and wrong is a matter of legislation?


A matter of tribal self-interest. Ask your own extended family/tribe...lol.

:oo-->

[Book]

No, it will result in reduced availability of formerly cheap goods and services, higher prices for what remains available, and a lower standard of living for those who can't afford the tariff.


ELIMINATING ILLEGAL WORKERS only results in Big Ag having to pay a living wage to Whitey.

:oo-->

[shamrocks33]

What a load of crap. America was built before the mexi's invaded. All jobs Americans can do.


America was built by Chinese and African slaves. :oo-->

Time to harvest the strawberries:

http://www.echoroukonline.com/eng/thumbnail.php?file=obese_teenagers_587566123.jpg&size=article_medium


I think you forgot about the whole midwest agriculture...don't think there were many chinee or africans there

[wildcard]

No, it will result in reduced availability of formerly cheap goods and services, higher prices for what remains available, and a lower standard of living for those who can't afford the tariff.


ELIMINATING ILLEGAL WORKERS only results in Big Ag having to pay a living wage to Whitey.

:oo-->


Exactly. And the USA not being able to grow enough food to feed its own is laughable.

[wildcard]

I wish I had the statistics on how efficient slave labor was in the south. I bet it was pretty farkin low. And as for the Chinese..., build one freakin' railroad and now you're the builder of America? Sheesh.

[silverblood]

I never did get that list of benefits that illegal immigrants provide to America.


I can't imagine why you think you should benefit by another person's decision to move and live somewhere else. Who do you think these hypothetical benefits should accrue to?


If I may? It's not a matter of benefitting, it's a matter that after a point they're a liability and a detriment to those that pay to have a simple infrastructure. They, like those leeching on the welfare state are over burdening an already failing system. Because of this burden current tax payers are being asked for more to supplement those that pay nothing into the infrastructure.

In addition, I'll add that many, if not most illegals care not a damn about America but only sending currency back to their mother country. I know this 1st hand! They squirrel away our $ so that they can retire on their ranch while the joke is on us stupid gringo's.


Ah, you reinforce my point made several posts back. Rather than look for real solutions to the actual problems, people prefer to point fingers and scapegoat others. The problem isn't immigration, it's taxation. The slave who wants to fiercely protect his entitlements, paid for by theft from his own pocket, backs his master who whips him daily. Why not toss the master out and stop paying him tribute? Then there will be no "failing system" for other to leech from. By the way, the vast majority of leeches are US citizens, not illegals.

I can't fault someone for not giving a damn about America. Most people can't even agree what that means.

Why do you begrudge someone the right to earn money and spend it on himself and his family? Don't you do the same?

[silverblood]

Your version of a free market is a fairy tale. What really happens is the farmer sells out and moves his operation to Mexico where he can operate with lower overhead because to do otherwise would violate his own self-interest.

ROFL. Now you're against someone moving to their own benefit? WTF??? ;D


Where do you get that idea? I see nothing wrong with the farmer moving to Mexico. I'm considering it myself.

You need to carefully consider what is actually being said versus your initial interpretation. You are projecting.

[Fudup]

You're not getting it Libertytree. He doesn't care that the mexicans cost taxpayers money. He wants to do away with all governments and borders and rely on the inherent goodness of man to guide us all through life's journey. ::)


If thats truly the case then they are very fortunate to live in a country such as the USA that has protected them for so long that they may entertain this fantasy. Anarchy is probably not what they are hoping for then. Anarchy is petty warlords enforcing their will as far as their guns will reach.

[Book]

I can't fault someone for not giving a damn about America. Most people can't even agree what that means.

Why do you begrudge someone the right to earn money and spend it on himself and his family? Don't you do the same?


Whoever disagrees with Silverblood does not give a damn about America and begrudges someone the right to earn money...lol.

:D

[wildcard]

I'm all for a low slave wage paying farmer to move to mexico. Maybe it'll keep some of the greasers on their side of the fence.

[silverblood]

No, it will result in reduced availability of formerly cheap goods and services, higher prices for what remains available, and a lower standard of living for those who can't afford the tariff.


ELIMINATING ILLEGAL WORKERS only results in Big Ag having to pay a living wage to Whitey.

:oo-->


Is that what you think would happen? Not while cheaper labor is available elsewhere.

[shamrocks33]

wow I feel like I'm hearing the echoes of talking points out of Sacremento :puke

[wildcard]

You refuse to see reality. Those workers would either be building the lettuce picking machines or be freed up in the economy to do other jobs.

[silverblood]

Your version of a free market is a fairy tale. What really happens is the farmer sells out and moves his operation to Mexico where he can operate with lower overhead because to do otherwise would violate his own self-interest.


And your version of liberty is realistic?


"Realistic" is a subjective valuation that has nothing to do with the concept of liberty. What is wrong with a farmer moving his operation to a location where people are willing to work for lower pay? That makes perfect sense to me.

[Book]

Is that what you think would happen? Not while cheaper labor is available elsewhere.


Thus...why the illegals are now not welcome anymore and why Arizona is now enforcing their new law...lol.

:oo-->

[Apparition]

I'm all for a low slave wage paying farmer to move to mexico. Maybe it'll keep some of the greasers on their side of the fence.


Same here.

If the illegals want to cause problems then have them do it in their own country.

[Book]

"Realistic" is a subjective valuation that has nothing to do with the concept of liberty. What is wrong with a farmer moving his operation to a location where people are willing to work for lower pay? That makes perfect sense to me.


Zionist Banker Heaven...lol.

[silverblood]

You refuse to see reality. Those workers would either be building the lettuce picking machines or be freed up in the economy to do other jobs.


You live in a fairy-tale world disconnected from reality. If it were cheaper to build lettuce picking machines than to hire cheap labor, it would already be done. It has been done in other fields of agriculture. What in the world makes you think that the strawberry and lettuce pickers wouldn't do the same if it were economically feasible? Geez.

[wildcard]

Is that what you think would happen? Not while cheaper labor is available elsewhere.


Thus...why the illegals are now not welcome anymore and why Arizona is now enforcing their new law...lol.

:oo-->


In his world without borders, farmer joe is going to pack up and move south to get his cheap labor forcing american's to buy this nasty produce and starving us to death because we can't grow a head of lettuce without wetbacks.

[silverblood]

Is that what you think would happen? Not while cheaper labor is available elsewhere.


Thus...why the illegals are now not welcome anymore and why Arizona is now enforcing their new law...lol.

:oo-->


Then let them (the Arizonans) eat cake.

[wildcard]

You refuse to see reality. Those workers would either be building the lettuce picking machines or be freed up in the economy to do other jobs.


You live in a fairy-tale world disconnected from reality. If it were cheaper to build lettuce picking machines than to hire cheap labor, it would already be done. It has been done in other fields of agriculture. What in the world makes you think that the strawberry and lettuce pickers wouldn't do the same if it were economically feasible? Geez.


HELLO. Necessity is the mother of invention. IF farmer joe has to pay high prices to Americans to pick his lettuce he will start innovating his ass off. HELLO ELI WHITNEY. ROFL

*ok so those numbers were off. :-P

[silverblood]

"Realistic" is a subjective valuation that has nothing to do with the concept of liberty. What is wrong with a farmer moving his operation to a location where people are willing to work for lower pay? That makes perfect sense to me.


Zionist Banker Heaven...lol.


Freedom of association. Right to hire or to be employed by your own consent, not subject to the dictates of others.

How you can relate anything in this thread to Zionism is completely baffling.

[shamrocks33]

Don't forget the fact that joe taxpayer is paying for their healthcare and schooling for their kids so its alot more than minimum wage...Our Emergency rooms in so. cal. are a fucking joke now

[silverblood]

Don't forget the fact that joe taxpayer is paying for their healthcare and schooling for their kids so its alot more than minimum wage...Our Emergency rooms in so. cal. are a f*cking joke now


Would you rather kick out illegals or continue to pay taxes?

I know, that's sort of like asking someone if he has stopped beating his wife.

[wildcard]

We're paying taxes anyhow. The police may as well do their job.

[silverblood]

We're paying taxes anyhow. The police may as well do their job.


Their badge says "To Serve and Protect". Who do you think they serve, and what do you think they protect? If you live in Arizona, you are subject to this law too.

I could see someone who says "We're paying taxes anyhow" being OK with that. Like being OK with airport naked-body scans.

Present your papers, Mr. wildcard.

[wildcard]

The airport is a strawman and you know it. I believe the state is a necessary evil to protect its citizens as I have already stated. Keeping illegals out falls under that. Protect the people and protect the workforce.

*enabling the police to check a suspected illegal immigrant's status doesn't bother me one bit.

[silverblood]

And what if you are the suspected illegal immigrant? Or perhaps your best friend, who looks Mexican but is actually a citizen?

[silverblood]

The airport is a strawman and you know it. I believe the state is a necessary evil to protect its citizens as I have already stated.


I believe the State is evil, but not necessary.

[wildcard]

And what if you are the suspected illegal immigrant? Or perhaps your best friend, who looks Mexican but is actually a citizen?


Then I guess he should move to another state or make himself known to the law enforcement in the area so he isn't needlessly harassed for looking like a dirty wetback. 8)

[MarketNeutral]

And what if you are the suspected illegal immigrant? Or perhaps your best friend, who looks Mexican but is actually a citizen?


Arizona has a growing problem with illegal Russians/Eastern Europeans that are trying to control drug traffic/organized crime. It will not be just Hispanic looking people they were be stopping.

[Osaka]

Finally, the old GIM has come back to life!!

People arguing states rights vs federal powers, police vs unreasonable searches, and the rights of citizens vs non-citizens.

Great to have a forum to do this again without fear that the entire thing will be erased, or we'll be banned for speaking our minds.

[mamboni]

Don't forget the fact that joe taxpayer is paying for their healthcare and schooling for their kids so its alot more than minimum wage...Our Emergency rooms in so. cal. are a f*cking joke now


Would you rather kick out illegals or continue to pay taxes?

I know, that's sort of like asking someone if he has stopped beating his wife.


You come off as some arrogant know-it-all. Your comments are needlessly disrespectful and provocative. For someone who professes unfettered freedom you are quite the aggressor. Let me clue you in:

The republics of the US are predicated on the sanctity of private property and natural individual rights. The people, through their representatives, have consented to abridging a portion of these rights whenever the society comes to a consensus that such is advantageous to the citizenry on the whole. These are the laws we choose to live by. They are created, destroyed and modified depending on current needs. This republican system is not perfect, and requires constant rebalances. But a legal framework is necessary to the protection of private property and individual rights within these constraints. The alternative that you propose, anarchy, does not work. What it does guarantee is destruction of private property and repeated infringement on individual rights and endless conflict. An anarchic society is no society at all: it is a rabble. Eventually, people realize that such a constantly fluid state is simply impractical. That is when codes of conduct and laws are drafted, so that stability and permanence, of property, production and human existence may be fostered.

So, when you talk about illegal invaders and rights in the same sentence I must strongly disagree. If you don’t like the law then change it or abolish it. But in the here and now the law must not be flouted. These people who break the law by crossing the border are invaders who relinquished any rights they had when they crossed the border. They have no right to be here and must be expelled immediately. I for one refuse to have my nation slowly destroyed for the sake of a few criminals who have no respect for my nation’s laws.

As for the method of removal of these invaders, any and all means that remove them with the least possible inconvenience to law abiding citizens should be enacted. I have no issue with law officers stopping folk and demanding some form of ID: this is an invasion and these invaders are warring against our way of life. Under these conditions, citizens cannot expect to go to and fro in the same unfettered manner as under peace time. Businesses that employ illegal invaders should be charged with treason. Let the courts determine the punishment. To those who would argue that validating new hires is onerous and too difficult, I would say that if hiring only legal citizens is too much trouble, then perhaps your business is better off closed or moved abroad. To businesses who claim that illegals provide cheap labor necessary to commerce I say: change the damn law then! Stop encouraging lawbreaking by hiring these illegal invaders.

[MarketNeutral]

What documentation/papers do you need to produce during a police state stop to prove your status? Looks like out of state, U.S. citizens visiting could be SOL. Since it would probably be an AZ drivers license or AZ ID card. Only 8% of U.S. citizens have a passport so the "what is proof" should be interesting.

Seems like the booming business for Arizona will be fake documentation/papers. Looks like the Russian mafia will have another income stream soon.

[Libertytree]

Don't forget the fact that joe taxpayer is paying for their healthcare and schooling for their kids so its alot more than minimum wage...Our Emergency rooms in so. cal. are a f*cking joke now


Would you rather kick out illegals or continue to pay taxes?

I know, that's sort of like asking someone if he has stopped beating his wife.


Is it ok to want the illegals gone AND taxes brought back to a reasonable scope?

[wildcard]

http://immigrationbuzz.com/?page_id=270

FBI Fast Facts

2006 (1st Qtr) INS/FBI Statistical Report on Illegal Immigration.

62% of all “undocumented immigrants” in the United States are working for cash and not paying taxes, predominantly illegal aliens, working without a green card;

95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens;

83% of warrants for murder in Phoenix are for illegal aliens;

86% of warrants for murder in Albuquerque are for illegal aliens;

75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles, Phoenix, and Albuquerque are illegal aliens;

More than 380,000 “anchor babies” were born in the United States in 2005 were to parents who are illegal aliens; making those 380,000 babies automatically U.S. citizens. 97.2% of all costs incurred from those births were paid by the American taxpayer;

More than 66% of all births in California are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births were paid for by taxpayers;

24.9% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally;

40.1% of all inmates in Arizona detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally;

48.2% of all inmates in New Mexico detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally;

29% (630,000) convicted illegal alien felons fill our state and federal prisons at a cost of $1.6 billion annually;

More than 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages

More than 53% of all investigated burglaries reported in California, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona and Texas are perpetrated by illegal aliens;

More than half of all gang members in Los Angeles are illegal aliens from south of the border;

More than 43% of all Food Stamps issued are to illegal aliens;

More than 41% of all unemployment checks issued in the United States are to illegal aliens;

58% of all Welfare payments in the United States are issued to illegal aliens;

Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties in the United States are illegal aliens;

14 out of 31 TV stations in L.A. are Spanish-only;

16 out of 28 TV stations in Phoenix are Spanish-only;

15 out of 24 TV stations in Albuquerque are Spanish-only;

21 radio stations in L.A. are Spanish-only;

17 radio stations in Phoenix are Spanish-only;

17 radio stations in Albuquerque are Spanish-only;

More than 34% of Arizona students in grades 1-12 are illegal aliens;

More than 24% of Arizona students in grades 1-12 are non-English-speaking;

More than 39% of California students in grades 1-12 are illegal aliens;

More than 42% of California students in grades 1-12 are non-English-speaking

In Los Angeles County, 5.1 million people speak English. 3.9 million speak Spanish;

More than 71% of all apprehended cars stolen in 2005 in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and California were stolen by illegal aliens or transport coyotes”;

47% of cited/stopped drivers in California have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 47%, 92% are illegal aliens;

63% of cited/stopped drivers in Arizona have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 63%, 97% are illegal aliens;

66% of cited/stopped drivers in New Mexico have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 66%, 98% are illegal aliens;

Less than 2% of illegal aliens in the United States are picking crops , but 41% are on welfare;

Over 70% of the United States annual population growth (and over 90% of California, Florida, and New York) results from immigration;

The cost of immigration to the American taxpayer in 1997 (latest know calculation. Can you imagine what it must be in 2006? WOW!) was a NET (after subtracting taxes immigrants pay) $70 BILLION a year, [Professor Donald Huddle, Rice University];

The estimated profit to U.S. corporations and businesses employing ILLEGAL aliens in 2005 was more than $2.36 TRILLION dollars;

The lifetime fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average adult Mexican ILLEGAL alien is $55,000.00 cost to the American taxpayer in a 5-year span. You, personally, are giving $11,000 every year to ILLEGAL aliens.

[wildcard]

All that and no mention of illegal drugs or their impact on the communities.

[wildcard]

LAPD's most wanted list:

http://www.lapdonline.org/all_most_wanted

[MarketNeutral]

Seems like the States can save a lot of fiat by deporting the illegals that are incarcerated for misdemanors and that are within 12 months of completing their sentence.

[wildcard]

Only if it's legal for the police to check the status of the inmate.

[wildcard]

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/kouri/060622

Illegal aliens linked to rise in crime statistics


By Jim Kouri

The former Immigration and Naturalization Service estimated that as of January 2000 the total unauthorized immigrant population residing in the United States was 7 million. This total includes those who entered the United States illegally and those who entered legally but overstayed their authorized period of stay.

A more recent study estimated that there were about 10 million illegal aliens living in the United States as of March 2005. The study estimated that nearly 700,000 aliens entered the United States illegally or overstayed their authorized period of stay each year between 2000 and 2004. Some experts believe this is a overly conservative figure and that illegal immigrants number close to 20 million.

At the same time, after a steady annual reduction in crime, the annual FBI Uniform Crime Report reveals a slow but sure yearly increase in crime, especially violent crime. Some criminologists attribute the rise in crime to illegal aliens who come into the United States with a criminal background.

Many illegal aliens in the United States have been arrested and incarcerated in federal and state prisons and local jails, adding to already overcrowded prisons and jails. The US Justice Department issued a report on criminal aliens who are incarcerated in federal and state prisons and local jails.

The report contained information on the number of criminal aliens incarcerated, their country of citizenship or country of birth, and the cost to incarcerate them. Congress also requested that the Government Accounting Office provide information on the criminal history of aliens incarcerated in federal and state prisons or local jails who had entered the country illegally.

In the population study of a sample of 55,322 illegal aliens, researchers found that they were arrested at least a total of 459,614 times, averaging about 8 arrests per illegal alien. Nearly all had more than 1 arrest. Thirty-eight percent (about 21,000) had between 2 and 5 arrests, 32 percent (about 18,000) had between 6 and 10 arrests, and 26 percent (about 15,000) had 11 or more arrests. Most of the arrests occurred after 1990.

They were arrested for a total of about 700,000 criminal offenses, averaging about 13 offenses per illegal alien. One arrest incident may include multiple offenses, a fact that explains why there are nearly one and half times more offenses than arrests. Almost all of these illegal aliens were arrested for more than 1 offense. Slightly more than half of the 55,322 illegal aliens had between 2 and 10 offenses.

About 45 percent of all offenses were drug or immigration offenses. About 15 percent were property-related offenses such as burglary, larceny-theft, motor vehicle theft, and property damage. About 12 percent were for violent offenses such as murder, robbery, assault, and sex-related crimes.

The balance was for such offenses as traffic violations, including driving under the influence; fraud — including forgery and counterfeiting; weapons violations; and obstruction of justice.

Eighty percent of all arrests occurred in three states — California, Texas, and Arizona. Specifically, about 58 percent of all arrests occurred in California, 14 percent in Texas, and 8 percent in Arizona.

Sources: Government Accounting Office, US Department of Justice, National Security Institute

© Jim Kouri

[wildcard]

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/kouri/100416

Illegal immigration becomes Arizona state crime


Arizona is the first state in the U.S. to make illegal immigration a crime — and illegal aliens and their advocates aren't happy about it.

While the pleas from American citizens in Arizona and other states fall on deaf ears in Washington, DC, the violence and crime at the U.S.-Mexico border continues unabated.

In yet another example of violence spreading north of the border, a deadly Mexican gang is actively plotting to kill U.S. law enforcement officers and their families in Texas, according to a Department of Homeland Security alert that warns U.S. cops to wear body armor and vary routes to avoid being tracked.

The U.S. government has spent billions of dollars to fight Mexican drug cartels yet they continue to be the nation's largest supplier of illicit narcotics and violent Mexican gangs have expanded into every region of the country, including idyllic rural areas.

"This is hardly earth-shattering news since Mexico has long represented the single greatest drug trafficking threat to the U.S., despite Uncle Sam's multi billion-dollar effort to halt the northbound flow of narcotics. The costly investment has failed miserably, according to a federal report that reveals Mexican heroin production has actually doubled in the last year," state officials from the public-interest group Judicial Watch.

In the absence of federal enforcement a Mexican border state — Arizona — drowning in an illegal immigration pandemic has passed legislation that bans "sanctuary city" policies and makes it a state crime to be in the U.S. without proper documentation.

The law marks an unprecedented effort by an American state to take immigration matters into its own hands since immigration offenses are currently violations of federal law that cannot be enforced by local police. But lawmakers in Arizona are fed up with the enormous toll that illegal aliens are having on their state as the feds sit idly by and fail to secure the southern border, according to a Judicial Watch report obtained by the National Association of Chiefs of Police.

In the past few years they've chipped away at the crisis with other measures, though this is by far the most hard-hitting and definitely among the country's toughest immigration enforcement laws. The measure, passed this week by the Arizona House and previously approved by the Senate, grants police the power to stop and verify the immigration status of anyone suspected of being illegal and requires foreign nationals to carry proof of legal residency. This includes the man known as "America's sheriff" Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County, which includes Phoenix.

Sheriff Arpaio has been targeted by the Obama Justice Department and Democrats in his own state because of his tough immigration enforcement policy.

Illegal aliens will be charged in state court with trespassing and anyone — documented or undocumented — seeking work from a road or sidewalk will also be criminally prosecuted. Drivers who pick up illegal alien day laborers will also be punished when the law kicks in.

Predictably, immigration advocates are incensed and have called on Arizona Governor Jan Brewer to veto the measure which they assert is racist. The legal director of an influential national group La Raza that represents day laborers calls it an "unconstitutional, unwise and odious bill" created by "demagogue leaders" who have become folk heroes for "white supremacists" throughout the country.

Arizona lawmakers have long searched for ways to curb the colossal impact that illegal immigration has had on their state. A few years ago they enacted a law that punishes businesses that hire illegal immigrants, though the state has not penalized a single employer. Legislators allocated the sufficient funds (about $5 million) to enforce the law but a chunk of the money remains largely unspent by counties throughout the state, according to the JW report.

© Jim Kouri

[MarketNeutral]

Only if it's legal for the police to check the status of the inmate.


If it wasn't, then how did the FBI compute their stats?

[wildcard]

I mean for reasons of deportation. Hell if I know how they cook these stats up. I just cut and paste. :dunno

I didn't even know the INS had gone away til I started looking at this.

[Horn]

What documentation/papers do you need to produce during a police state stop to prove your status? Looks like out of state, U.S. citizens visiting could be SOL. Since it would probably be an AZ drivers license or AZ ID card. Only 8% of U.S. citizens have a passport so the "what is proof" should be interesting.

Seems like the booming business for Arizona will be fake documentation/papers. Looks like the Russian mafia will have another income stream soon.



Jan is either working herself into the case history for the National I.D. program, or just plain dumb.

[BigShiny]

LAPD's most wanted list:

http://www.lapdonline.org/all_most_wanted


Wow! It took me all the way to "F" to find a white person on that list. Before that they were all mestizo with the exception of two blacks.

[Olmstein]

I'm not worried about increasing the power of the state on this one. Even without "papers", I can easily convince any LEO that I'm a citizen of this country. Can't you?

If you can't, I suggest you carry your papers with you at all times.

[Neuro]

I know we already hashed this out on GIM, and in the end you guys couldn't produce an example of a free civilization without borders that prospered (or even survived) (unless it was far removed from all others)
Not exactly without borders, but pretty much anyone who wanted too could go to the US in the 19th century, and the economic growth in real money terms was phenomenal. The difference was that there were no nanny state who took care of those who didn't want to take care of themselves. People came to America to build a better life for themselves by themselves. Today many come because they want a better life and want someone else to pay for it, just like many who are legal residents. The state is the problem... More state is not going to make anything better...

[kregener]

The police can stop you and.."demand your papers"...now, at any time they desire.

Anyone who denies this has their head in the sand.

What this does is allow them to do it to Hispanics to check their citizenship and/or RIGHT to even be in our fine state.

[MarketNeutral]

Jan is either working herself into the case history for the National I.D. program, or just plain dumb.




She is just plain dumb. MLB is all ready a buzz about moving the Cactus League out of Arizona and move to Nevada, New Mexico or Texas. Chicago Cubs are all ready trying to move to Florida for Spring Training. MLB reps are are meeting with Jan on Monday - that horse is all ready out the door.

Good luck trying to make up that lost revenue.

I believe AZ will never get a Superbowl or Olympics ever. Will be interesting to see if all the car shows pull out and go to Laughlin.

[MarketNeutral]

The police can stop you and.."demand your papers"...now, at any time they desire.



They have to have probable cause. Now they can demand your papers when you are cutting your grass or jogging around the block just because you "look foreign".

Hell, they can see you sitting in your living room and demand your papers which gives them the cover to seize materials in your home.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

[Book]

How you can relate anything in this thread to Zionism is completely baffling.


Jewish Involvement in Shaping American Immigration Policy, 1881-1965: A Historical Review

http://www.kevinmacdonald.net/books-immigration.html

Unbaffle yourself...lol.

:oo-->

[Book]

Freedom of association.


Freedom to NOT associate.

:D

[philo beddoe]

And what if you are the suspected illegal immigrant? Or perhaps your best friend, who looks Mexican but is actually a citizen?
Sorry bud, don't have any friends that 'look' mesican

[philo beddoe]

Finally, the old GIM has come back to life!!

People arguing states rights vs federal powers, police vs unreasonable searches, and the rights of citizens vs non-citizens.

Great to have a forum to do this again without fear that the entire thing will be erased, or we'll be banned for speaking our minds.
That's funny osaka, seeing how you and skykike set me up for a ban back in 2007

[philo beddoe]

Seems like the States can save a lot of fiat by deporting the illegals that are incarcerated for misdemanors and that are within 12 months of completing their sentence.
SO they can stroll right back over the border? I say hang em high.

[philo beddoe]

I'm not worried about increasing the power of the state on this one. Even without "papers", I can easily convince any LEO that I'm a citizen of this country. Can't you?

If you can't, I suggest you carry your papers with you at all times.


There comes a time when people who are accused of being a shill show their colors. You are definitely on the right side of this one. :)

[Olmstein]

I'm not worried about increasing the power of the state on this one. Even without "papers", I can easily convince any LEO that I'm a citizen of this country. Can't you?

If you can't, I suggest you carry your papers with you at all times.


There comes a time when people who are accused of being a shill show their colors. You are definitely on the right side of this one. :)


Thanks.

BTW, nice tits.

[philo beddoe]

I'm not worried about increasing the power of the state on this one. Even without "papers", I can easily convince any LEO that I'm a citizen of this country. Can't you?

If you can't, I suggest you carry your papers with you at all times.


There comes a time when people who are accused of being a shill show their colors. You are definitely on the right side of this one. :)


Thanks.

BTW, nice tits.
Thanks, i try to keep them perky...........

[Horn]

Seems like the States can save a lot of fiat by deporting the illegals that are incarcerated for misdemanors and that are within 12 months of completing their sentence.
SO they can stroll right back over the border? I say hang em high.


I'm sure U.S. incarceration is a breeze compared to Mexican.

Instead of forming a plan to make dough, Arizona's will see their taxes increase to pay for 3 meals a day, and board.

[wildcard]

Those coyotes aren't cheap. If they come back they'll wind up working as a slave in a sweat shop for nothing to pay off their debt. They won't have time to be out causing whitey problems.

[kregener]

The police can stop you and.."demand your papers"...now, at any time they desire.

I stand by that statement.

Yes, even when you are cutting your grass, whatever. Denying them will get you tased, handcuffed and taken to the Hoosegow.

Bank.

[EE_]

Okay, I did some checking to see how much lettuce/strawberries cost when all the hidden costs of illegal's are added in...healthcare/emergency room, free schooling, welfare, housing, justice system/police/imprisonment
($37.89 a head) (strawberries $17.49 each)
Maybe Joe the farmer should stop using all these high priced illegals?

[Odysseus]

It must be encouraging to the represenatives of the State that so many are still willing to surrender liberty in exchange for the promise of security.

However, until the root cause of the problem is addressed, there will be no solution. The welfare state is the problem, and demanding that none of the master's crumbs go to the new slaves is not the answer.

Right on silverblood and MarketNeutral.

Shockley? You talk to ghosts.

[philo beddoe]

It must be encouraging to the represenatives of the State that so many are still willing to surrender liberty in exchange for the promise of security.

However, until the root cause of the problem is addressed, there will be no solution. The welfare state is the problem, and demanding that none of the master's crumbs go to the new slaves is not the answer.

Right on silverblood and MarketNeutral.

Shockley? You talk to ghosts.
Hey, it's masonic plot.welcome aboard comrade..........

[steyr_m]

Just because your white that does not mean you will not be stopped. :oo-->

Fascism. Police State. Here it comes.

Want to get rid of the illegals; Fine the crap out of anyone who hires them, rents/sales a house to them or sales a car to them.

Oh, that would hurt the corporations. No, allow everyone to have to present papers on command, that will work.

Good luck with tourism. :oo-->


I know what you're saying, but at least it's a start. Sitting around and bickering is what TPTB want. Bravo state of Arizona.

[Book]

However, until the root cause of the problem is addressed, there will be no solution.



http://www.borderinvasionpics.com/pics/bip/IndexTopPicb.jpg

Duh.

:oo-->

[sunshine05]

Those of you who are against this legislation, maybe need to think about some of the lowered quality of life that Americans have as a result of this 3rd world invasion.....

For starters, the highest percentage of prisoners are illegal aliens. It's not just those coming here "in search of a better life". There is a huge criminal element and gangs, rapists and drunk drivers. Many times they are pulled over for DUI and eventually released only to do it again in a different county and there is no way to track them because they just use a different name each time. And they are killing innocent Americans every day. Thousands every year. The media hides these stories. I have tracked them because it happens all the time in my area and many times they fail to release their immigration status because they don't want people to know how bad the problem really is.

Schools: Our schools are so overcrowded because of the anchor babies given birthright citizenship when that was never supposed to happen. The law should not apply to illegals. So our kids have to go to school year around and at one point we were bussed to a different district because there was not enough space. And the ESL classes that overwhelm the schools reduces our teachers attention to American kids.

Health: There are no health screenings because they are here illegally. TB is a huge problem in Mexico. Well, where do many of them get jobs - in kitchen restaurants. Preparing our food with no health screen and 3rd world hygiene habits. You will be hard pressed to find a restaurant in my town that does not employ illegals. We adopted one of our boys internationally and he had to have a bunch of health screens just to get in the country and we had to have FBI clearance and fingerprinting and a lot of paperwork just to get him here. Yet they just walk across the border and now demand amnesty after breaking the law to come here.

Countries must maintain sovereignty to survive. We are losing our culture. Spanish signs are everywhere. Immigrants in the past learned English.

Hospitals of course are overwhelmed and some are being forced to close.

I do not put all the blame on the illegals. Our govt encouraged this. I think it was to keep the housing bubble going as long as possible and I also think it's about the NAU. It's already here and next will come the NWO. So something needs to be done if this country is to survive and illegal immigration is the biggest problem here today. They always throw around that it's 12-15 million but it's much more than that.

I could go on and on but this AZ law is what we need. We need more of it.

[Trinity]

Well said sunshine05.

[wildcard]

Nobody is giving up any goddamned liberty for security. The cops are already out there stopping people. NOW they'll have the right to check the fucking wetback's immigrant status. Cry some more libtards.

[MarketNeutral]

Freedom of movement, mobility rights or the right to travel is a human rights concept which is respected in the Constitution. It asserts that a citizen of a state, in which that citizen is present to travel to, reside in, and/or work in, any part of the state the citizen wishes without interference from the state.

[MarketNeutral]

Nobody is giving up any goddamned liberty for security. The cops are already out there stopping people. NOW they'll have the right to check the f*cking wetback's immigrant status. Cry some more libtards.


You should really read the Constitution, because you are coming across as a real dumb ass now.

Freedom of movement without having to show your PAPERS on demand is a basic right afforded under the Constitution.

I was not even going to reply to your idiotic comment but I felt obliged to.

You are a Police State Shill. You are a Neocon. You are the people I loath.

[wildcard]

And you sound like a liberal idiot.

[wildcard]

It's your kind with jew support that have let all these fucking worthless third worlders in here in the first place. Then when folks want them dealt with you cry. Go protest with the wetbacks. See if they don't beat your gringo ass. Dumbshit.

[MarketNeutral]

And you sound like a liberal idiot.


Read the Constitution. Report back. Thanks.

[wildcard]

Make sure you whine to the mods and threaten to take your toys and leave you fucking prima donna.

[MarketNeutral]

Make sure you whine to the mods and threaten to take your toys and leave you f*cking prima donna.


Goebbels.

[wildcard]

ROFL. Come down off the cross Jesus we need the wood.

[wildcard]

Keep pushing for open borders and globalism, commie.

[Brent]

Nobody is giving up any goddamned liberty for security. The cops are already out there stopping people. NOW they'll have the right to check the f*cking wetback's immigrant status. Cry some more libtards.


You should really read the Constitution, because you are coming across as a real dumb ass now.

Freedom of movement without having to show your PAPERS on demand is a basic right afforded under the Constitution.

I was not even going to reply to your idiotic comment but I felt obliged to.

You are a Police State Shill. You are a Neocon. You are the people I loath.




I can't believe that someone who is calling Wildcard a "Police State Shill" and a "Neocon" actually has the chutzpah to then anyone a "dumb ass". The absurdity of that statement is just hilarious. If WC is a Neocon then I'm a freakin Zionist. LOL

[wildcard]

Ah, you know me brent. I must have had hundreds of posts over at gim supporting the militarization of our police forces. And I am always pushing the neo-cohen agenda. :sarc: :laugh

[Horn]

Commie, is that all the muffin man can cook up? :oo-->

wildcard you must have somewhere in that hard head of yours that this legislation isn't the most sensible?

The borders could be better patrolled, I'm sure everyone agrees to that.

The root of this problem is the same as it ever was, and Jan's law will only work to aggravate an already rotting wound.

The leaders should be able to sit down and have this immigration problem figured out in a weekend.

Why won't they?

Because they enjoy watching the remedial players & pawns make hasty judgments that they can flex down the toilet with a pinch of their sphincter.

Any sensible sovereign country & it's economy would have it's reigns over immigration firmly without resorting to unwarranted witch hunts.

Why doesn't the U.S.?

Because it's a too big too fail corporation.

[MarketNeutral]

Nobody is giving up any goddamned liberty for security. The cops are already out there stopping people. NOW they'll have the right to check the f*cking wetback's immigrant status. Cry some more libtards.


You should really read the Constitution, because you are coming across as a real dumb ass now.

Freedom of movement without having to show your PAPERS on demand is a basic right afforded under the Constitution.

I was not even going to reply to your idiotic comment but I felt obliged to.

You are a Police State Shill. You are a Neocon. You are the people I loath.




I can't believe that someone who is calling Wildcard a "Police State Shill" and a "Neocon" actually has the chutzpah to then anyone a "dumb ass". The absurdity of that statement is just hilarious. If WC is a Neocon then I'm a freakin Zionist. LOL


http://troutsoup.com/img/yourpapersplease.jpg

[wildcard]

Hmmm, I think marketneutral must be a wetback.

MN?

http://stoptheinvasionoforegon.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/mamfmapro.jpg?w=240&h=300

[wildcard]

You should stick to fetching the news and not trying to comment on it.

[MarketNeutral]

You should stick to fetching the news and not trying to comment on it.


Freedom of movement, mobility rights or the right to travel is a human rights concept which is respected in the Constitution. It asserts that a citizen of a state, in which that citizen is present to travel to, reside in, and/or work in, any part of the state the citizen wishes without interference from the state.

Police state shill.

[Horn]

Onverd mine bruthers auct zee Jan's palen forest!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ2YaThEms0

[mamboni]

Is it time for Thunderdome?

[wildcard]

You are clucking about the constitution when George Washington would gather an army and kill them all and then kick the shit out of mehico if he were alive today.

[MarketNeutral]

Is it time for Thunderdome?


Do we need to show our papers for that?

[Gaillo]

GODDAMNIT!!!!!

From about post#210 on, this thread has taken a MAJOR turn for the worst! I can't be everywhere at once, and I sure as HELL can't read every thread every day regardless of the (rather excessive, if I do say so myself!) hours I spend in front of this MF'ing screen.

MarketNeutral and Wildcard - ENOUGH ALREADY!!!! This is your ONLY warning - take your Hatfield/McCoy feud to the Thunderdome, or quit posting to each other. It's been a longer day than I even want to admit to myself, and this isn't making it any better.

Re-read Rule #1, it's posted all over the place... BE FVCKING CIVIL TO EACH OTHER, so I don't have to be otherwise to YOU. 'Nuff said.

[wildcard]

You should stick to fetching the news and not trying to comment on it.


Freedom of movement, mobility rights or the right to travel is a human rights concept which is respected in the Constitution. It asserts that a citizen of a state, in which that citizen is present to travel to, reside in, and/or work in, any part of the state the citizen wishes without interference from the state.

Police state shill.


Globalist shill, you really hurt me deep. ROFL. This is why there will have to be bloodshed. You can't fix stupid.

[MarketNeutral]

GODDAMNIT!!!!!

From about post#210 on, this thread has taken a MAJOR turn for the worst! I can't be everywhere at once, and I sure as HELL can't read every thread every day regardless of the (rather excessive, if I do say so myself!) hours I spend in front of this MF'ing screen.

MarketNeutral and Wildcard - ENOUGH ALREADY!!!! This is your ONLY warning - take your Hatfield/McCoy feud to the Thunderdome, or quit posting to each other. It's been a longer day than I even want to admit to myself, and this isn't making it any better.

Re-read Rule #1, it's posted all over the place... BE FVCKING CIVIL TO EACH OTHER, so I don't have to be otherwise to YOU. 'Nuff said.


http://tenpercent.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/papers1.jpeg

[wildcard]

These idealogues don't have any rules...no borders...no papers. You rule one holds no meaning to him! ;D

[Gaillo]

Globalist shill, you really hurt me deep. ROFL. This is why there will have to be bloodshed. You can't fix stupid.





GODDAMNIT!!!!!

From about post#210 on, this thread has taken a MAJOR turn for the worst! I can't be everywhere at once, and I sure as HELL can't read every thread every day regardless of the (rather excessive, if I do say so myself!) hours I spend in front of this MF'ing screen.

MarketNeutral and Wildcard - ENOUGH ALREADY!!!! This is your ONLY warning - take your Hatfield/McCoy feud to the Thunderdome, or quit posting to each other. It's been a longer day than I even want to admit to myself, and this isn't making it any better.

Re-read Rule #1, it's posted all over the place... BE FVCKING CIVIL TO EACH OTHER, so I don't have to be otherwise to YOU. 'Nuff said.


http://tenpercent.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/papers1.jpeg


MarketNeutral and Wildcard,
I'm not trying to shut you up with "NAZI methods" - or demanding your paperwork. I'm asking you both, in the most civil way that I can without completely losing my temper after reading the multiple postings of BANNABLE personal attacks, to KINDLY move this to the Thunderdome. HELP ME to HELP YOU - I really don't feel like wading through the multiple levels of "ban member" menus tonight - after what has (at least up to this point...) been a very good day.

[wildcard]

Don't worry Gaillo, it's in these slug fests that the truth comes out. You see how people truly feel. I won't hold any grudge against mn except in this one matter. The next time we disagree then I'll open up another slot.

[wildcard]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ1IPtbkgnM

*yep it's a police state. Look at those cops cracking skulls.

[Osaka]

That's funny osaka, seeing how you and skykike set me up for a ban back in 2007


I have no idea what you are talking about. Care to fill in the details?

[willie pete]

That's McCain's state, sheesh...you'd think he'd be trying to do more than he is

[Trinity]

I'm unsure about all this "open borders" talk from political leaders. What we should do is experiment with it in a smaller less important section of the world to see if it works(the opening of borders and meshing different cultures/peoples etc.) I say we start with the Middle East.

[nunaem]

"Don't tread on me. Tread on THEM." >:(
Seems to be the philosophy of many here.

[nunaem]

"But officer, I'm white!" :oo-->

[Book]

Freedom of movement, mobility rights or the right to travel is a human rights concept which is respected in the Constitution. It asserts that a citizen of a state, in which that citizen is present to travel to, reside in, and/or work in, any part of the state the citizen wishes without interference from the state.

Police state shill.


http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/illegalaliens_1.jpg

You happen to notice that citizen thingie MN?

:oo-->

[MarketNeutral]

$250K fine and 3 years in jail for anyone that hires them.

Can't have that because that hurts the rich and corporations.

Getting stopped on the whim by the men in black so you can present your papers is apparently a-ok with you. You will make a swell FEMA Camp guard.

The term police state describes a state in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the movement, economic, and political life of the population.

[Gknowmx]

I agree MN, go after those that employ 'em, IF that is even an issue. The fact is, at least they are willing to work. One problem is that a lot of useless over-paid US Citizens are exposed for their real value when they are unwilling to compete for the jobs they deserve rather than the jobs they think they are entitled to.

the joke is on AZ. This will fail big time and drive even more of the AZ economy underground. AZ won't be able to enforce this pretty soon. I didn't read the entire thread but how would these people be processed through the system? ICE isn't going to have the resources to process them.

[Book]

Getting stopped on the whim by the men in black so you can present your papers is apparently a-ok with you. You will make a swell FEMA Camp guard.


But on the whim by the men in black demanding "papers please" from employers is apparently a-ok with you.

See your contradiction MN?

:oo-->

[MarketNeutral]

Getting stopped on the whim by the men in black so you can present your papers is apparently a-ok with you. You will make a swell FEMA Camp guard.


But on the whim by the men in black demanding "papers please" from employers is apparently a-ok with you.

See your contradiction MN?

:oo-->








Employers are responsible to ensure employee payroll taxes are withheld. A quick check with the social security office in AZ will verify that the SSN/TIN is valid and matches the person applying for the job. To do this you would, ding ding, have to verify their papers.

So, you are saying you would just hire anyone based on a conversation you had with them? That is how it works in your reality?

[Gknowmx]

You should stick to fetching the news and not trying to comment on it.


Freedom of movement, mobility rights or the right to travel is a human rights concept which is respected in the Constitution. It asserts that a citizen of a state, in which that citizen is present to travel to, reside in, and/or work in, any part of the state the citizen wishes without interference from the state.

Police state shill.


If it is a basic human right, as I think it is, citizenship is irrelavant to the issue.

[wildcard]

It's not a basic human right to diddy bop your ass across sovereign nation's borders. It's a fucking invasion. If you were affected by it then you'd understand.

[philo beddoe]

I agree MN, go after those that employ 'em, IF that is even an issue. The fact is, at least they are willing to work. One problem is that a lot of useless over-paid US Citizens are exposed for their real value when they are unwilling to compete for the jobs they deserve rather than the jobs they think they are entitled to.

the joke is on AZ. This will fail big time and drive even more of the AZ economy underground. AZ won't be able to enforce this pretty soon. I didn't read the entire thread but how would these people be processed through the system? ICE isn't going to have the resources to process them.
Reagan already bullshitted us with that in 1987, or maybe you don't remember. Either way, it don't work, and it's a joke. But think you know that already. Whether pretentious hippy come righteous know it all's like yourself realize it, we are already at war.