Tokarev

[Black Blade]

A Eastern Bloc Classic

gA nice day at the gun range test firing a Romanian Tokarev 7.62x25mm handgun (a cal. comparable to a 30-30 carbine round in a pistol). Nice and powerful blaster that shoots milsurp ammo that travels anywhere from 1350-1750 fps. I would put that up against any 45 cal handgun myself. I was looking to get another "bear gun" with all the recent nusiance bears and bear attacks. So a nifty Tokarev for about $200 and 1248 rounds of Romanian surplus ammo for $130 fit the bill.

http://images.yuku.com/image/pjpeg/f01362ee1fbca2f22778171139f3905b5c8f3229.pjpg

http://images.yuku.com/image/pjpeg/13316618aa2a1c3191d9c9ecb7118ca1ec6edc49.pjpg

http://images.yuku.com/image/pjpeg/13316618aa2a1c3191d9c9ecb7118ca1ec6edc49.pjpg

Top: Tokarev at 25 yards - Bottom at 35 yards.

I usually carry one into Yellowstone NP and Glacier NP when hiking and camping in the back country. A couple close calls over the years with bear and moose.

Over all, a very nice gun that lets out a "crack" when fired and a foot long fireball in low light conditions. Others at the range tend to move off when this firarms throws bullets down-range.

- Black Blade

[Black Blade]

One of the best deals going in the C&R universe is the Romanian and Polish Tokarev. For under $200 per gun and $130 per case of 1260 rounds per spam can it's hard to beat.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll287/jhwarner1/SheridanGuns/TokarevAmmo1.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll287/jhwarner1/SheridanGuns/TokarevAmmo3.jpg

I have "dressed up" one with wraparound grips (from Marschal) and added a muzzle brake.

http://images.yuku.com/image/pjpeg/ee836b951787ae3b21d4115d349b9a3a76d3834c.pjpg

http://images.yuku.com/image/pjpeg/01c262b1b1aff20d18a3c29674b94d443e2f2c0d.pjpg

I CCW a Romanian Tokarev in a Ross IWB holster with a mag carrier

http://images.yuku.com/image/pjpeg/fea16d1ea4211031906288d591a00ebe1a68cdee.pjpg

http://images.yuku.com/image/pjpeg/31d1611ead2019349ee42c0ebb38040402d26e4b.pjpg

[Black Blade]

A long winded vote for the tokarev
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Better round? The Tokarev can defeat threat level III bullet proof vests in simple 'ball' form, the 45 can't even defeat an old G.I. helmet. While I don't believe the Tokarev makes a better defensive round, you must take into consideration that they were designed to do two different things. The 45 is like a 12 ga, short effective range, but a hellofalotta power, the Tokarev will shoot out past 100 yards with reasonable accuracy (most of them that is) and have a hellofalotta penetration, in fact I have heard claims of Tokarev rounds penetrating stem to stern large brown bears (with ice pick sized wound channels, so I wouldn't recommend using one for grizzly hunting). As for the guns, The Tokarev is lighter and thinner than a 1911, and I am sure at least as reliable. The bottle necked cartridge is practically flawless (if you don't believe me, pick up some fired Tokarev shells, and put them unsized into your magazine, they will cycle thru the gun even though they have no bullet in the, talk about wide mouthed hollow points, you'll probably never find a forty five that feeds like that without a custom throating job) the trigger will smooth out to pretty darn good if you shoot it often enough. As for balance and grip angle, that is completely subjective, I rather like the feel of the Tokarev. It's shorter grip frame doesn't print so much, and if you buy a norinco (though most people hate them for some odd reason), all you have to do is deepen the dimples with a drill press (or careful hand drilling) to make the safety function properly) I can carry cocked and locked and it has never slopped off. As for the purpose of carrying cocked and locked with a round in the chamber, I don't believe their is one, I have practiced hundreds of times to leave the gun cocked, safety off, but no round in the chamber pull the gun out of it's holster, slam the gun so that big rear sight clips onto the top of your shorts, or belt, or even your pants leg, and cycle a round into the chamber when you get good at it, it will be no slower than if you just pulled and pointed it as my small of the back holster is in a natural motion from pulling it to swinging it around your body clipping the rear sight and pushing outward the slid will cycle a fresh round and you are set to go. If you drop the mag you can practice dry at home and not have to worry about having a negligent discharge (start off this way please) this doesn't even require a safety. Lets consider the unfortunate possibility, that you cannot cycle the slide, or miss catching the sight under stress, Most situations that call for using a CCW wouldn't justify pulling and shooting (at least not unless you want to spend a good time in jail), you should give challenge and attempt to diffuse the situation without further violence, in these cases, if you get the other guy off guard, then you should have plenty of time to cycle that slide, in addition to the fact, you know the chambers empty, but all the other guy sees is a pistol with the hammer back pointing at him, I'll bet you a barrel of nickels, he's going to quickly have a life affirmation and decide maybe a life of crime isn't such a good idea anyways.


Defensive load for the tt-33 Tokarev

A 310-311 (can't remember which) diameter Horniday 60 grain xtp hollow point with a hot load of fast powder of your choice for a velocity of around 1750 fps (or put a stronger recoil spring into it and approach 1900fps this will evaporate a 10 lb watermelon, and hit the backstop behind it with enough energy to bury 3 inches), I can only imagine the wound channel on that puppy.

Don't forget that the gun is also strong enough for 38 super conversions, if you absolutely need to have a bigger bullet.

As for 45's I'll have my first in a month or so, (past my 45 colt's that is) so maybe I'll be singing a different tune, but I doubt it. The major selling point for me was its toughness. My brain dead friend went hunting one year and brought along a military Russian Tokarev with him. It was the last day of the season, and he actually got a deer. He took out the pistol to finish the deer off, and set it on the ground before he started with the pictures and gutting and so forth. Somewhere in the process, the gun must have gotten kicked under some leaves, because after he was done he couldn't find it, it was getting dark so he decided to look for it the next day. He didn't find it then either. Too bad so sad for him right. Two seasons after that one, he was digging a hole to bury a banana peel out by his stand, and low and behold, he found his gun, a big ball of rust. He took it home, had to use a hammer, heat, and penetrating oil to even get the thing open. He took it apart, used a file to clean off the bigger hunks of rust, gave it an oil bath and put a fresh mag of bullets in it, I'll be damned if it didn't go off every round then and has never missed one since. Good gun is all I have to say (I guess I should have said that first, and saved you guys the trouble) oh well one vote for the Tokarev!!!

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64449

[Black Blade]

Penetration Tests

I live in Bear Country and we have the occasional nuisance bear (Black Bear and Grizzly). Due to the thick skin and thick skull on a bear I need penetration more than expansion. That said, there are 7.62x25 hollow points (Wolf Gold) and fragmentation rounds (Mag Safe) available.

Handgun Penetration Tests on Kevlar helmet:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm

Note that of all the handguns, the 7.62x25 is the only round that penetrated the helmet and water jug.

Wolf Gold JHP

7.62x25 Tokrev Wolf, 85-grain JHP, 1591 fps. Currently out of stock due to high demand but I understand that some may be imported in the Fall once again. Occassionally found on Gunbroker.

Mag Safe Fragmentation

7.62x25 Tokarev MagSafe Defender Rifle Cartridge, 52-Grain, 2120 fps and ~ 560 ft-lb at the muzzle. Mag Safe Frag rounds are pricey at just under $3/round. But they are currently available.

That said, When not carrying a Glock 26 or 19, I find myself carrying a P-64 as my BUG (pocket gun) and a CZ-82 or German Makarov with 9x18mm Hornady XTP rounds (especially now that it's summer). 1000 feet per second with 211 foot/pounds of energy.

[Black Blade]

Selection of Tokarevs (left - Polish and right 0 Romanian)

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll287/jhwarner1/SheridanGuns/Toks-1a.jpg

Recent Polish purchase from SOG

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll287/jhwarner1/SheridanGuns/Pol-Tok2a.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll287/jhwarner1/SheridanGuns/Pol-Tok1a.jpg

[Black Blade]

So why did the Soviets replace the Tokarev (7.62x25) with a less powerful Makarov (9x18)?

The Red Army fought the Great Patriotic War of 1941-45 with both the semi-automatic Tokarev TT pistols and the obsolete Nagant M1895 revolvers. Despite the fact that more potent pistols were designed just before and during the war, the TT remained the mainstream weapon. Wartime experience, which included a close (and sometimes very personal) familiarity with German pistols, resulted in a major change of thinking about the role and necessary features of a military pistol for the Soviet army. Another factor that played a major role in the development of new requirements for the next military pistol, was the realistic prospect of a Third World War, with massive nuclear bombing and other such large-scale actions; as a result, pistols played a very minor role in both strategic and tactical doctrines of the Soviet Army. Furthermore, Tokarev pistols, despite being relatively simple and powerful, showed significant deficiencies, some of them quite serious, such as the lack of positive safety, so almost immediately after the war the GAU (Glavnoye Artillerijskoe Upravlenie – General Artillery Department of General Staff) issued a new set of requirements for a military and police pistol.

These requirements asked for a compact, double action pistol of the “Walther PP type”. New pistols were to be submitted in three calibres – 7.65x17SR Browning (proposed police round), 9x17 Browning, and a new 9x18. The last of these had been initially developed just prior to the war and refined after the war by the designer Syomin. Apparently, this round was inspired by the German 9x18 Ultra, which was designed in the mid-1930s to provide “acceptable maximum power” in simple, pocket-sized blowback pistols. The key reason for the increase in calibre when compared with the West 9mm rounds is unknown (the 9x18 Soviet has bullet diameter of 9.2mm, while most Western 9mm rounds have a bullet diameter of 9.02mm). However, with the benefit of hindsight, we can assume that the reasons for a calibre increase were probably the same as for the calibre of Soviet 82mm mortars, which were able to load and fire the slightly smaller German 8.1cm mortar bombs, but not vice versa. Also, while the Soviet Army was ahead of many others in the request for a double action pistol, it regressed somewhat in adopting an only marginally powerful round in a weapon that in essence was a pocket-type pistol. At the same period of time, many other armies, looking for an increase in power, starting to change their “weak” 7.65x17 Browning, 9x17 Browning or 7.65x20 Longue pistols to the more potent 9x19 Luger/Parabellum/NATO weapons. The explanation for this fact, however, is rather simple – while most Western countries relied on full-power rifles (bolt action or semi-automatic) and a sub-machine guns as a primary individual armament for the infantry, the new Soviet concept had no place for sub-machine guns, as the only primary arm of the infantry was the newly developed assault rifle. Most Western pistols were required to fire 9mm NATO ammunition just to have commonality in ammunition with the standard issue sub-machine guns; Soviet designers had no such requirements, and by the late forties 9x18 looked as if it was good enough for a military pistol.

Trials for a new pistol started in 1947. Many designs were submitted and tested, such as pistols by Baryshev, Rakov, Voevodin, Simonov, and Makarov. Some designs were submitted in only one of the desired calibres, some, such as the Makarov design, in two, and a few in all three. At the same time, the Army also tested few larger machine pistols in 9x18, which were intended as personal defence weapons for certain officers and NCOs. In 1948, the first trials resulted in a selection of the Makarov pistol in 9x18 as a next military sidearm for Soviet armed forces. However, it took three more years to refine its design, before it was officially adopted in 1951 as the “9mm Pistolet Makarova” or PM in short. In the same year Soviet Army also adopted the 20-shot, selective-fire Stechkin APS pistol in the same calibre. It was chosen over two similar machine pistols, designed by the then-unknown Kalashnikov (the designer of famous AK assault rifle) and Voevodin (who designed several pistols just before the war).

It must be noted that while TT was declared obsolete in 1951, it remained in service with the Soviet Army until the early seventies; in some rural departments of Soviet Militia (police) TT pistols served well into the eighties.

(from the book "Modern combat pistols")

[JohnQPublic]

Is "wolf gold" tungsten (i.e., wolfram)?

[Black Blade]

Is "wolf gold" tungsten (i.e., wolfram)?


Composition of Wolf JHP is Tungsten-NyTrilium composite fragments for maximum shock and opening of wound channel.

[Quantum]

Is "wolf gold" tungsten (i.e., wolfram)?


Composition of Wolf JHP is Tungsten-NyTrilium composite fragments for maximum shock and opening of wound channel.


The presence of tungsten in a projectile makes it "armor piercing," so it's not available to civilians. If someone is claiming otherwise, they're lying.

Wolf Gold refers to the brass casing.

[Black Blade]

UPDATE: Yugoslavian Tokarev M57 is now C&R eligible probably on the basis that Yugoslavia is no longer a county and firearms during the period are now "curios" by definition (similar to Czechoslovakia and East Germany). As a result I added this to the Tokarev collection. It came with an old beat up holster, a cleaning rod and a spare magazine (that only holds 8 rounds). The downside of course is that finding extra M57 magazines is nearly impossible.

http://images.yuku.com/image/jpg/8fa16713d4cdd6b5da392f186fb1d8da26549af8_r.jpg

This Yugo M57 looks to be in very good to excellent condition. It came drenched in cosmoline as did the spare magazine. One magazine holds nine rounds and the other eight rounds.

http://images.yuku.com/image/jpg/6c016d12dec1d2b1d0aad9d4ef1b301c5522fdc4_r.jpg

http://images.yuku.com/image/jpg/5e116a18d9ccd3b9d744575adf948dbeb1e94cff_r.jpg

I took an hour to strip, go through and clean the cosmoline out of the gun and magazines. I used hot water to loosen the gunk and then wiped it down, followed by spraying with Break Free CLP and brushing out the channels and crevices with a toothbrush. I then wiped down the prts, reassembled and went to the gun club. The M57 is very comfortable with the longer grip than other Tokarevs. After cleaning the trigger is perfect so I have no need for any trigger work. The Tokarev M57 shoots very well as expected with similar results compared to the other Tokarevs in the collection.

- Black Blade

[Tinman]

does the 8 round magazine work in the M57?

[ximmy]

SOG says not for sale in california :boohoo

[Black Blade]

does the 8 round magazine work in the M57?


Both magazines are M57 magazines. Just one only accepts 8 rounds. I will have to disassemble it and see what's going on.

[Black Blade]

New Additions - Yugoslav M57 Tokarev

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll287/jhwarner1/SheridanGuns/Tok-Fam1a.jpg

Top Row (L-R) three Polish Tokarevs, Three Romanian Tokarevs, Bottom Row Three Yugoslav M57 Tokarevs

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll287/jhwarner1/SheridanGuns/Tok-Fam4a.jpg

Three recently added Yugoslav M57 Tokarevs

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll287/jhwarner1/SheridanGuns/Tok-Fam3a.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll287/jhwarner1/SheridanGuns/Tok-Fam2a.jpg

CZ-52 magazines modified for use in Yugoslav M57 Tokarev (see notch in front right side of magazines). They functioned flawlessly.

The last two M57 Tokarevs had a few minor problems suggesting that the vendor is scraping the bottom of the barrel as they sell out. One had a problem of not cocking back the hammer. It seems to have broken in somewhat now as only the first round out of the magazine typically fails to lock back the hammer after firing. The other has a delayed strike at times. It may be just that the firing pin and channel needs a good cleaning. Otherwise they function great.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll287/jhwarner1/SheridanGuns/Tok-Fam7a.jpg

At 35' they are fairly accurate. I went through about 400 rounds in the three M57 guns as I checked for function and look for any problems. I may keep one as a CCW gun and have the others in reserve and for possible future need for parts.

- Black Blade

[CrufflerJJ]

SOG says not for sale in california :boohoo


Doesn't Kalifornia require that handguns be "safety tested" & on a state generated "OK to buy" list? I think that there have been a number of handgun makers/importers who aren't willing to go through the cost & BS associated with this requirement.

[Rebel Yarr]

I like my Romanian tt-33 - but my CZ-52 is just so much sexier! nice collection you have there - any reason you don't show/discuss cz-52's?

"The dressed up" tt-33 with brake and wrap around grips is very nice - what is the story on the brake/grips?

[Black Blade]

I like my Romanian tt-33 - but my CZ-52 is just so much sexier! nice collection you have there - any reason you don't show/discuss cz-52's?

"The dressed up" tt-33 with brake and wrap around grips is very nice - what is the story on the brake/grips?


I went for the Tokarevs over the CZ-52 partly because of the brittle firing pin issue and mostly because my vendors are sold out. I had an order in for about a year with SOG before I gave up. It appears that the milsurp end has unfortunately dried up while the Tokarevs are still rather abundant. Can't go wrong with either gun imo.

- Black Blade

[Black Blade]

UPDATE: I just got a couple sets of Marscal grips for the M57 and they look nice. Both are walnut grips. The smooth grips are walnut red stained and the other is walnut oil rubbed:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll287/jhwarner1/SheridanGuns/TokarevWG4a.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll287/jhwarner1/SheridanGuns/TokarevWG5a.jpg

I may have to make a few more M57 magazines (out of CZ-52 magazines) as I see that no more will be coming in from Serbia ever again (don't know why). There does not appear to be any interest in the US aftermarket for making them. There are still sources for the CZ-52 mags but for how long before they are all gone or bought up by M57 owners is anyones guess. I may yet add another couple Tokarev M57 before long and then close the books on adding more.

- Black Blade

[Black Blade]

I just got a Norinco (Chinese) Tokarev with both the 9mm and 7.62x25mm barrels. I got a chance to get to the club and test out the gun and compare to a Polish Tokarev for function.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll287/jhwarner1/SheridanGuns/NorincoTok1a.jpg

It was partly cloudy, 62F and a slight crosswind. I used Romanian surplus.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll287/jhwarner1/SheridanGuns/NorincoTok2a.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll287/jhwarner1/SheridanGuns/NorincoTok3a.jpg

The Norinco has a great trigger and functioned well except I had to tighten the safety level after a few rounds and there were a few light strikes requiring another strike. I ordered a new firing pin and hopefully that will resolve the issue. Otherwise it is probably the best of the Tokarevs as far as the smooth trigger. It was also quite accurate at about 20 yards.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll287/jhwarner1/SheridanGuns/PolishTok1a.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll287/jhwarner1/SheridanGuns/PolishTok2a.jpg

The Polish Tokarev functioned flawlessly but the trigger is not quite as smooth and therefore a little less accurate at about 20 yards as seen in the photos. I will likely get another Norinco Tokarev as a companion piece.

- Black Blade

[nailbender]

I have a CZ-52 and do not like it. I love the round though. Its fun to shoot and cheap as dirt. Next time I am getting the Tokarev. It has a better mag release that the CZ and better reliability. Maybe a PPSH 43 for fun

[steyr_m]

I understand that there's probably tonnes of surplus ammo out there, but just found out that .223/5.56 brass can be re-sized to load the 7.62x25mm Tokarev....

[Black Blade]

I got a few more Tokarevs recently. I got one from SOG and two hard chromed from Classic Arms.

http://images.yuku.com/image/jpg/ab8260e1a1d10c2cd8fb75d0a2ce3f70ab17e118_r.jpg

http://images.yuku.com/image/jpg/76d268f1bbdb4c7adf9b03d40d8991a7bb9fb539_r.jpg

http://images.yuku.com/image/jpg/d9116612ddcadfbdd518a576a26ac9761776ab65_r.jpg

The SOG Tok came slathered in cosmoline of course and needed a good cleaning. It came out nice.

http://images.yuku.com/image/jpg/d4426e512ade4c32dd8b43dac187433949b92463_r.jpg

http://images.yuku.com/image/jpg/c6126e1121d01cf0d1abc5d1d1792c994f736697_r.jpg

the chromed were cleaned but one needed some trigger work as well as some work on the mag release. Just needed to add to my growing collection is all.

BTW, cheap surplus ammo is all gone although commercial is available.