50 Bible Reasons Why The Jews Are Not Israel

[LuckyStrike]

**I am posting this because I have posted it on GIM as well as a visitor message to greenbear. I have never received a response to this. As most know I enjoy engaging in debate, however I will not debate anyone on the subject of jews until they can refute this article. Considering their entire religion and their whole arguments hang on whether or not this is true you would think people would take the time to research it**

I get tired of doing countless hours of research and looking at others information, while the information I send across falls by the wayside. I posted this in a post while in a discussion last week you know how many people clicked on it? 2? They stayed for less than 1 minute and came back here wanting to debate me as if they had taken the time to learn anything.

Again, I will not respond to this post whatsoever unless you would like to refute any of the specific passages. Ad hominem attacks do not warrant my response. So without further adieu.

http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/50reasons.html
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___


WHEN it is declared that the U. S.A. and Britain and other Nordic nations are Israelites and the chosen people of God, most of the modern lay churches call it false and without foundation, but refuse to give any Scriptures to prove that we are not. They put us on the defensive by demanding proof of our claims, and in response we give evidence from Scripture, history, ethnology and heraldry. As a reaction to the usual tactics of our opponents the order has been reversed and some questions presented for an answer:

Can those who disagree with us furnish evidence to prove that we are not Israel, and that the Jews are? No man's answer will suffice. The answer must come from
God's Word so that the issue may be clear.

The modern day church states that the Jew and Israel are one and the same; also that the U.S.A., Britain and other Nordic nations are Gentile (in the sense of heathen) nations. If their claim is true, and the Jews are Israel, THEY HAVE TO FULFIL EVERY SCRIPTURE WHICH GOD SAID ISRAELWOULD FULFIL:

So in answer to my critics in relation to my latest books "Who Am I?" I present the following questions relative to the above mentioned subject. All these questions emerge from reading God's Word and history.

1) Have the Jews blessed all the nations of the earth? Gen. 12:3; 22: 18.

2) Are the Jews circumcised in heart? Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Romans 2:28 and 29; Phil. 3:3; Col. 2:9-11.

3) Have the Jews ever glorified Christ and has He been recognized by the Jewish nation? Isa. 41:16; Luke 1:32 and 7:16.

4) Do the Jews declare that Christ is the Lord God of Israel of the old Testament? Isa. 43: 10 & 12; 44:8; 49:3-6; 52:6; and Acts 1:8.

5) Do the Jews show forth the praise of Jesus? Isa. 43:21

6) Have the Jews carried the gospel to all the world and witnessed for Jesus Christ and held the Bible open? Gen. 28: 14; Isa 43: 10; 44:21; and look at Isa.49:3,6 and Acts 1:8 again

7) Do the Jews have God's Spirit and the Word of God in their mouth and their uttermost being? Isa.59:21.

8) Was the New Covenant written only to the Jews? The Bible states that it was made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. Jer. 31: 31-33; Heb. 8:8-10; Matt. 26:28.

9) Are the Jews the sheep of Israel? Ezek. 34:11,12; Psalm 78:52; 95:1,6,7; Isa. 53:6; John 10:22-27; Matt. 15:24.

10) Are the Jews the Children of God scattered abroad? St. John 7:35; 10:16 and 11:52.

11) Is Jesus Christ glorified in the Jews? Isa. 49:3; Romans 8:29,30; 11:1,2 and 9:4.

12) Are the Jews the servants of God? Isa. 41:8; 43:8 and 49:3.

13) Are the Jews a holy nation, a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a peculiar people? Ex. 19:5,6; Deut. 14:2 and 7:6; 1 Peter 2:9,10; and 1:1,2.

14) Are the Jews the great characters mentioned in the great faith chapter of Hebrews 11? (Not one was a Jew.)

15) Are the Jews a "righteous nation?" Isaiah 26:2.

16) Are the Jews bringing forth the fruits of the kingdom? Hosea 14:8; Matt. 21:43.

17) Are the Jews kind to strangers? Lev. 19:33,34; Matt. 25:31-46.

18) Are the Jews called the "sons of the living God?" Hosea 1:10.

19) Do the Jews claim to be "not God's people? Hosea 1:10.

20) Do the Jews have all of God's Word? Deut. 33:4; Psalm 147:19&20; Romans 9:3-5.

21) Are the Jews a great and mighty nation? Genesis 18:18.

22) Are the Jews today innumerable as the stars of heaven and as the sand of the seashore? Gen. 22: 17; Hosea 1:10.

23) Do the Jews possess the gate of their enemies? Gen. 22:17; 24:60.

24) Are the Jews a nation and a company of Genesis 48 and 49,

25) Will the Jews push all the people together to the ends of the earth? Deut. 33:17.

26) Are the Jews above all the people on the face of the earth? Deut. 7:6; & 12:2; Psalm 135:4; Amos 3:2.

27) Have the Jews ever dwelt alone in a home appointed by God? Num. 23:9; 2 Sam. 7 :10; 1Chron. 17:9; Deut. 29:28; Jer: 16:13 & 3:18; Ezek. 36:24 and Acts 17:26.

28) Have the Jews a navy or naval power? Num. 24:7; Isa. 60:5,9,

29) Did or will the Jews eat up the nations, their enemies? Num. 24:8.

30) Are Jews God's battle axe? Num. 24:8,9; Isa. 41: 15,16; Jer. 51:20-23.

31) Are the Jews feared by all nations? Deut. 2:25; 28: 10.

32) Are the Jews a mighty nation, crushing and grinding to powder all who oppose them? Matt. 21:44 and Daniel 2:44.

33) Have the Jews inherited the gentiles? Isa. 54:3.

34) Is it possible to count 1/4 of the Jews, or all of them? Num. 23: 10.

35) Are the Jews the rod of God's inheritance? Ps. 135:4; Isa. 19:25.

36) Do the Jews today have an earthly king of the lineage of David ruling over them? If they are Israel then a Davidic king must be among them somewhere. Ps.89:27-29 & 35 to 37; Jer. 33: 17.

37) Are the Jews called today through Isaac? (Isaac's sons, or Saxons) Gen. 35:11; Amos 7:16; Romans 9:7 and Heb. 11:18.

38) Will the Jews say they have lost their lineage or identity? Hos. 1:9 & 10; 2:6; Isa. 1:3; 42:19; Deut. 32:26; Jer. 50:6,7; Hosea 8:8 and 9:17.

39) Do the Jews have a new name today? Isa. 62:2; 65:15; Hosea 1:10; Romans 9:25,26; 1 Pet.2:10; Acts 11:26.(New Language too -Isa. 28:11).

40) If the Jews are Israel how can the blessings promised to specific, and separate tribes in Genesis 48 and 49, and in Deut. 33 come about? Wouldn't they have to be separate nations? Note the time of fulfilment: Gen. 49:1. (Also 1 John 2:18; Acts 2:16,17; 1Peter 1:3, 5, 18 & 20; Jude 17-.19 and Hebrews 11:1 and 2)

41) Are the heathen nations aligned against the Jews only? Joel 3:9; and Psalms 83.

42) Are the Jews a hidden people? Psalm 83:4 and Isaiah 3:9

43) Are the Jews described nationally as a great lion? Gen. 49:9 and Numbers 23:24; 24:9.

44) Did the Jews deliver Jerusalem in 1917? See Luke 21:24; Hag. 2:18, 19 and 22; Lev. 26:18 to 28; Ezek 4:6; Rev.2:3 & 12:10-14.These refer to"times" predicted, and along with many more that are too long to be discussed in this addendum. However Daniel 12:11 & 12; Psalm 95:10; Heb. 3:9 & 10 and Matt. 24:34, are of interest of time element.

45) Are the Jews the house of Israel and the house of Judah-two nations and families? Ezek. & Jer. 3: 18; 31:31; 33:24.

46) Are the Jews called "Great?" Gen. 12:2.

47) Have the Jews released those in slavery? Isa. 42:7 & 58:6.

48) Have the Jews colonized any people? Isa. 35:1; 49:8; Gen. 28:14.

49) Are the Jews an Island people? Isa,. 24:14; 41:1; 43:4-10; 49:1,19; and Jer. 23:8; 31:10.

50) Do the Jews recognize Jesus as God? (God said Israel would: Isaiah 43:10,12; 52:6; Matthew 1:23; Luke1:68; 1 Timothy 3:16; Acts 3:14 and John 9:28

Of the fifty questions concerning the Jews - a people regarded by so many as "God's Chosen People." And with more than three times this many Bible references
to these questions I cannot find even one Scripture to substantiate the people's claim that: "the Jews are God's chosen people." Friend, can you???

So, in conclusion to the above subject I am going to offer a $1,000.00 reward to the first good man - ooops, I just remember that Jesus Christ told a young man once that "there was none good but God." (Matt. chapter nineteen.). So, I will try to make this "Reward" offer very plain:

"If any man or woman, boy or girl, of any race or religious or unreligious beliefs will dust off your old Bible, using the King James version that I have studied for many years, and show me from its pages, chapter and verse, where it states that the Jews are God's chosen people, then I will give the first one $2,000.00. (Two Thousand Dollars) This offer will expire the first day of the year 2003, unless you ask me for more time to study."

Perhaps your pastor or some other preacher that teaches and preaches that the Jews are God's Chosen people could help you locate chapter and verse from your Bible.Ask your Sunday School teaches where to locate this in your Bible.

We have no more giants of culture such as Shakespeare, Beethoven and Goethe. We have no more literature, music or art of any significance since the Jewish blight descended upon our people. Music has become like the screech of automobile horns; literature has become a repetitious description of human debauchery, and art - the trivial daubs of monkeys or their human imitators.

These things I have written, and I believe in the same spirit of that of John the Apostle as he wrote in 1st John the second chapter. And I will close with a quotation
from this Apostle as he wrote in the 5th chapter of 1 John, verse 19:

"And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness."

And, with best wishes,

From an old ninety-one year old Israelite,

[illumin19]

Interesting......
I'm honestly curious, how do you see the Saxons and their practice of their faith/religion now compared to in the past (Biblical times)?



Just wondering about the "nordic nations" and their "practices"..........


Thanks

[7th trump]

Interesting......
I'm honestly curious, how do you see the Saxons and their practice of their faith/religion now compared to in the past (Biblical times)?



Just wondering about the "nordic nations" and their "practices"..........


Thanks


Easy enough!
What tribes was it that migrated north of Jerusalem over the Caucaucian Mountains of Georgia to populate what is now Europe and the America's and are called caucasions?
1. The white race that cannot be counted and are numberous as the sands of the seas and stars of the sky.
2. or people who claim they are geneticaly jewish (what ever that means), but do not do the works of the Father nor beleive in Jesus Christ.

[illumin19]

Interesting......
I'm honestly curious, how do you see the Saxons and their practice of their faith/religion now compared to in the past (Biblical times)?



Just wondering about the "nordic nations" and their "practices"..........


Thanks


Easy enough!
What tribes was it that migrated north of Jerusalem over the Caucaucian Mountains of Georgia to populate what is now Europe and the America's and are called caucasions?
1. The white race that cannot be counted and are numberous as the sands of the seas and stars of the sky.
2. or people who claim they are geneticaly jewish (what ever that means), but do not do the works of the Father nor beleive in Jesus Christ.



Easy enough???

What PRACTICES did you take from Jesus (alayhis salam)??
Praying? Fasting? etc.... Where are they manifested??

[7th trump]

Interesting......
I'm honestly curious, how do you see the Saxons and their practice of their faith/religion now compared to in the past (Biblical times)?



Just wondering about the "nordic nations" and their "practices"..........


Thanks


Easy enough!
What tribes was it that migrated north of Jerusalem over the Caucaucian Mountains of Georgia to populate what is now Europe and the America's and are called caucasions?
1. The white race that cannot be counted and are numberous as the sands of the seas and stars of the sky.
2. or people who claim they are geneticaly jewish (what ever that means), but do not do the works of the Father nor beleive in Jesus Christ.



Easy enough???

What PRACTICES did you take from Jesus (alayhis salam)??
Praying? Fasting? etc.... Where are they manifested??

Who is Jesus (alayhis salam)?

[illumin19]

Jesus is the Messiah, whom you say is God. (alayhis salam, is simply "peace be unto him" in Arabic. All Muslims wish peace on all the prophets/messengers of Allah [God].)

[LuckyStrike]

Jesus is the Messiah, whom you say is God. (alayhis salam, is simply "peace be unto him" in Arabic. All Muslims wish peace on all the prophets/messengers of Allah [God].)



Yahweh is God, Jesus is his Son.

Forgive my ignorance but are you a muslim?

[illumin19]

Jesus is the Messiah, whom you say is God. (alayhis salam, is simply "peace be unto him" in Arabic. All Muslims wish peace on all the prophets/messengers of Allah [God].)



Yahweh is God, Jesus is his Son.

Forgive my ignorance but are you a muslim?


Yes I am a Muslim. Don't worry about the ignorance part, we all are in more ways than one. :)

This thread can be summarized it seems by Rev. 2:9 and 3:9 wouldn't you say?

[LuckyStrike]

Yes I am a Muslim. Don't worry about the ignorance part, we all are in more ways than one. :)

This thread can be summarized it seems by Rev. 2:9 and 3:9 wouldn't you say?


Yeah, but there are so many good prophecies therein that I don't wanna condense it down to much :)

I would like your opinion on the following article that I wrote for my blog.

Who Is Anti Christ
http://www.truthinourtime.com/2010/01/who-is-anti-christ-part-1.html


Part 2
http://www.truthinourtime.com/2010/01/who-is-anti-christ-part-2.html

[illumin19]

Firstly, thank you for not slandering and speaking civil. YOu are one of the few that didn't say anything slanderous when replying, cool. StackerKen comes to mind too.

In regards to your blog..........it no doubt got your point across but, you take some passages from the Qur'an to portray the accuracy of some beliefs that are......"alien" to the Qur'an/Islam.

I know you are Christian and please don't take any of my comments harshly as I'm trying to give you the Islamic perspective of your blog ok. :)

First off, Islam can be pretty much be summed up in Chapter 112 "The Unity" of the Qur'an.

IN the name of Allah, the Beneficient, the Merciful,
Say: He, Allah, is One.
Allah is He on whom all depend.
He begets not, nor is he begotten;
None is like him.

Now this is the main part where Muslims and Christians differ and "seperates" us the most. One says God has no son (literal) and the other say he has a son.
Now I know that the Bible mentions Jesus (alayhis salam) as "Son of God" but it also mentions others as his son/sons/children in there also. So as a Muslim we cannot take that literal at best and have to take it as out right lies at worst.

So now that in Islam it is known that Allah/God has no son, need of sustenance and has no equal I will move on to some of the quotes.

The quote you took from the Qur'an about Jesus (alayhis salam) being raised from the dead isn't anything out of the ordinary as all will be raised to stand before the Almighty (subhanu wa ta' ala) it's not a reference to dying on the cross and resurrected.

Also the one about Jesus' (alayhis salam) having "sovereignty" is not really accurate in that Allah (subhanu wa ta' ala) is the sovereign of the heavens and earth.

10:68..............He (Allah/God) is the self-sufficient. His is what is in the heavens and what is in the earth.............

About the "anti-christ", yes it is shown in the Qur'an that alot of "jews"/Israelites have persecuted and even kill some of the prophets that were sent to them. As well as deny the Christ as you have shown with some of those quotes from their Talmud. It speaks about that also. A Muslim cannot be "anti-christ" because the Qur'an testifies of Jesus being just that.......the Christ/Messiah. (alayhis salam)
I'm glad you have that understanding of that part of Islam, any "Muslim" that slanders Jesus or any of the prophets is NOT a MUSLIM, period.


I feel like I'm barely scratching the surface so, i'll try to touch on more in the next day or so InshaAllah (God willing) as I gonna get some shut eye :P.

Keep striving with pure intention as Allah/God will bless you and guide you for your efforts, InshaAllah.

[7th trump]

Firstly, thank you for not slandering and speaking civil. YOu are one of the few that didn't say anything slanderous when replying, cool. StackerKen comes to mind too.

In regards to your blog..........it no doubt got your point across but, you take some passages from the Qur'an to portray the accuracy of some beliefs that are......"alien" to the Qur'an/Islam.

I know you are Christian and please don't take any of my comments harshly as I'm trying to give you the Islamic perspective of your blog ok. :)

First off, Islam can be pretty much be summed up in Chapter 112 "The Unity" of the Qur'an.

IN the name of Allah, the Beneficient, the Merciful,
Say: He, Allah, is One.
Allah is He on whom all depend.
He begets not, nor is he begotten;
None is like him.

Now this is the main part where Muslims and Christians differ and "seperates" us the most. One says God has no son (literal) and the other say he has a son.
Now I know that the Bible mentions Jesus (alayhis salam) as "Son of God" but it also mentions others as his son/sons/children in there also. So as a Muslim we cannot take that literal at best and have to take it as out right lies at worst.

So now that in Islam it is known that Allah/God has no son, need of sustenance and has no equal I will move on to some of the quotes.

The quote you took from the Qur'an about Jesus (alayhis salam) being raised from the dead isn't anything out of the ordinary as all will be raised to stand before the Almighty (subhanu wa ta' ala) it's not a reference to dying on the cross and resurrected.

Also the one about Jesus' (alayhis salam) having "sovereignty" is not really accurate in that Allah (subhanu wa ta' ala) is the sovereign of the heavens and earth.

10:68..............He (Allah/God) is the self-sufficient. His is what is in the heavens and what is in the earth.............

About the "anti-christ", yes it is shown in the Qur'an that alot of "jews"/Israelites have persecuted and even kill some of the prophets that were sent to them. As well as deny the Christ as you have shown with some of those quotes from their Talmud. It speaks about that also. A Muslim cannot be "anti-christ" because the Qur'an testifies of Jesus being just that.......the Christ/Messiah. (alayhis salam)
I'm glad you have that understanding of that part of Islam, any "Muslim" that slanders Jesus or any of the prophets is NOT a MUSLIM, period.


I feel like I'm barely scratching the surface so, i'll try to touch on more in the next day or so InshaAllah (God willing) as I gonna get some shut eye :P.

Keep striving with pure intention as Allah/God will bless you and guide you for your efforts, InshaAllah.

What would you do in regards to islam where you do not beleive in Jesus and Jesus appears claiming to be the son of God and has returned?
Would you continue on with islam or dump islam as a false religion?

[StackerKen]

I haven't read this thread yet.
But I just saw this and had to comment/ask






Yahweh is God, Jesus is his Son.



Nordic; yes, Jesus is God's Only begotten...

Jesus is also God Just as also the Holy Spirit is God.

God is revealed in the Bible in three persons

I don't claim to comprehend it.

But I do believe it.


Don't you?

[LuckyStrike]

The silence is deafening in this thread.

If CI is such a load of bunk it should be super easy to refute, like judeo Christianity is (if you can call that abomination Christianity)

[LuckyStrike]

I can barely keep up with this thread it moves so fast.

Well for the lurkers, this is what a dispensationalist "jews are God's chosen" preacher actually thinks about Jesus Christ. (Yet they claim it is CI who is evil)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0CyolAOeWQ

[Book]

Well for the lurkers, this is what a dispensationalist "jews are God's chosen" preacher actually thinks about Jesus Christ.



Proof that jews have infiltrated and totally infest many "Christian" churches now. "Zionist Christians" are even more rabid than jews now regarding Palestine.

:o

[StackerKen]

I can barely keep up with this thread it moves so fast.

Well for the lurkers, this is what a dispensationalist "jews are God's chosen" preacher actually thinks about Jesus Christ. (Yet they claim it is CI who is evil)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0CyolAOeWQ


Nordic that is some pretty heavy stuff there in that clip.

Hagee must mean that Jesus wasn't the messiah that the jews were expecting
to conquer Rome. ?

Hagee is definitely one of the leaders of Christian Zionism....and more than a little bit "Off base" sometimes

and I am not in that camp.

To help me understand the bible I often listen to these folks views and commentary

http://www.equip.org/articles/in-defense-of-zionism

I think you may have indicated they were a Christian Zionist group.( i don't think so)
yet they point out Hagee's errors here


...

This review first appeared in the Christian Research Journal, volume 31, number 4 (2008). For further information or to subscribe to the Christian Research Journal go to: http://www.equip.org

John Hagee is a New York Times best-selling author, prominent televangelist on Trinity Broadcasting Network, and pastor of the 19,000-member Cornerstone Church in San Antonio. In his latest book he argues that Christians are obligated to support the political state of Israel (pp. 84-85). He demands that we support Israel in anything it does, because we as Christians have "a biblical mandate to stand in absolute solidarity with Israel" (84, emphasis added). His book In Defense of Israel is virtually a hagiography (or overly idealizing presentation) of Jews and Judaism that borders on Judeolatry.

Hagee rebukes Christianity for anti-Semitism while he himself extols Judaism, declaring Jerusalem his "spiritual home" (12), speaking of Jews as his "spiritual brothers" (36, 173), even worshiping with them (144), and stating that they are "quite literally God's children" (51, emphasis in original) whom "we are commanded to love unconditionally" (2).

In Defense of Israel is a study in relentless confusion and massive inaccuracy, containing nearly as many errors as pages. The following addresses the most glaring of these.

Hagee's Historical Confusion. He states that Acts 11:26 occurred "forty years after the crucifixion" (93), around AD 70, but it actually occurred in the early 40s during "the reign of Claudius," according to Acts 11:28.1

He states that Jesus went to His first Passover "at the end of his twelfth year" (95), but instead He did so "when He became twelve" (Luke 2:42). He thinks Paul "wrote most of the New Testament" (98), although Luke did, in terms of volume, writing twenty-five percent of it.

Hagee believes, incredibly, that as a child Jesus studied the Mishnah (a collection of Jewish traditions and scriptural interpretations) and the rest of the Talmud (96). The Mishnah was compiled around AD 200, however, and the Talmud 200 years later. On page 97, he speaks of "the creation of the world in seven days," whereas it happened in six days (Gen. 1; Exod. 20:11; 31:17). He states that Caiaphas "was appointed by Herod" (127), but he was appointed by Valerius Gratus, more than twenty years after Herod died.

Hagee's Theological Errors. Hagee also appears to have some theological confusion-for example, he confuses the virgin birth with the immaculate conception of Mary (93). This leads to serious doctrinal errors, which I list below.

1. Hagee claims that Jesus did not come to be the Messiah. He writes, "not one verse of Scripture in the New Testament...says Jesus came to be the Messiah" (136; cf. 137, 140, 145). Jesus is called "Christ" (Messiah) throughout the New Testament, however. Peter declares, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matt. 16:15-16), as do Martha (John 11:27) and Jesus Himself (John 10:24-25), and John writes his gospel "that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ" (John 20:30-31). In Matthew 26:63-64 the high priest demands, "tell us whether You are the Christ." Jesus responds, "You have said it yourself." Also, Paul set about "confounding the Jews who lived at Damascus by proving that this Jesus is the Christ" (Acts 9:22).

2. Hagee maintains that "the Jews did not reject Jesus as Messiah" (132), since "Jesus had to live to be the Messiah" (135). Early in John's gospel, however, we read that "He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him" (John 1:11). At the end of His ministry Jesus weeps: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem... how often I wanted to gather your children together...and you were unwilling" (Matt. 23:37, emphasis added). Clearly then, Hagee is wrong for declaring that the Jews did not reject Jesus. Furthermore, Christ did come to die, for Paul busied himself "explaining and giving evidence that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, 'This Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you is the Christ'" (Acts 17:3; cf. 3:18; 26:23).

3. Hagee teaches that the Jews did not kill Jesus. He vigorously argues that this is "one of those deadly New Testament myths" and that "no justification can be found in the New Testament to support this lie" (125; cf. 122). Peter, however, preaches, "Men of Israel....this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death" (Acts 2:22-23, emphasis added." Stephen declares that the same Jews were the "betrayers and murderers" of "the Righteous One" (Acts 7:52). Paul charges that "the Jews...both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets" (1 Thess. 2:15; see also Acts 2:36; 3:13-15; 4:10; 5:28, 30; 10:39; 13:27-29; 26:10).

4. Hagee argues that "the Old Covenant is not dead" (158). Paul, however, writes that the Old Covenant's glory was fading even when Moses gave it (2 Cor. 3:7, 13) and "has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it" in the New Covenant (2 Cor. 3:10). Hebrews 8:13 thus notes that "when He said, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear."

Lamentably, the fact that Hagee is a best-selling author reminds us anew that, as God proclaimed, "my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" (Hos. 4:6).

[LuckyStrike]

So what do I have to do to get someone to refute these passages? Match the 1000 dollar reward already in place by the author?

Perhaps you judeos should go ask your preachers then report back with his opinion.

You claim to love Truth and believe the Bible 100% well these are right out of the Bible and there is only one group that fulfills them 100%, how long will you stay in denial?

This is the biggest smoking gun in all of their arguments, the fact that they CANT answer! greenbear and ken love to denounce CI as a stupid religion of hate but they lack the willingness or capacity to refute my claims.

The bottom line is either YOU are wrong, or the Bible is wrong and YOU are a liar for claiming to believe it 100%.

I know it's convenient to just pray this thread vanishes down the page so nobody clicks on it and then your off the hook, but I promise you I won't let that happen.

[LuckyStrike]

Wow, 10 days and nothing from the "Christian" zionists.

This is getting ugly.

[LuckyStrike]

But greenbear I thought Christian Identity was some nutty religious cult who try to bed religion to fit their worldview? I thought you and your husband think it absurd that the Anglo Saxon, Celtic, and Caucasian people are the true Israelites of the Bible?

If it is, it sure should be easy to disprove the claims. I mean I bring a list of 50 Reasons it should be simple to go down the list and refute them if CI is just some ultra right wing cult. Right?

[LuckyStrike]

Almost a month now and nothing. ???

gb, you should see what debka, or bnai brith has to say. I'm sure they have something you can just copy and paste over here addressing these Scriptures. ;D

[G2Rad]

3) Have the Jews ever glorified Christ and has He been recognized by the Jewish nation? Isa. 41:16; Luke 1:32 and 7:16.
4) Do the Jews declare that Christ is the Lord God of Israel of the old Testament? Isa. 43: 10 & 12; 44:8; 49:3-6; 52:6; and Acts 1:8.


The Bible says that they will not "glorify" and will not "declare" until the last days.
So your 3) and 4) can not testify in favor of "The Jews Are Not Israel".

[LuckyStrike]

1) Have the Jews blessed all the nations of the earth? Gen. 12:3; 22: 18.

Nordic, were does it say they will bless all the nations of the Earth? ???

Let's examine your verses.

Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

It says God will bless, not Jews.

----------------------------------




Let's take this from the top.

Regardless of who actually does the blessing, do you not think that for the last 100 years our society has degraded farther and faster than any other in the past 2 millenia?

Since 1948 we have blessed "jews" with 6-30+ billion per year, and then marvel out how successful these jews are in the mideast "boy they sure kicked arab ass in the 6 day war" I say with 30 billion dollars per year, there is only a small handful of countries that I personally couldn't take over.

Let's recap our blessings since 1948.

Legalized infanticide
Sodomite, "rights" marriage etc
Open marxist takeover of our government
Our borders have been left open so that those that founded this country will be a minority in it by 2040
Hundreds of thousands of our men have died fighting pointless wars
Our image to the world, is that of utter decadence and imperialism
We are literally slaves in our own land, paying more the 50% of everything WE earn to governments

If these are blessings, I'd hate to see what you consider curses.

[LuckyStrike]

The Bible says that they will not "glorify" and will not "declare" until the last days.
So your 3) and 4) can not testify in favor of "The Jews Are Not Israel".



Where does it say that?

[StackerKen]

Nordic; I can't say whether or not the people living in Israel are the True Israel of the bible end times.
I think it may be the Christian church (bride of Christ) that is the True Israel.
But I'm not sure bout that. (is that your thinking?)

I do know this

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

[LuckyStrike]

I do know this

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.


Amen to that Ken, applaud given.

[StackerKen]

Ken,
Which Christian Church?

Ima;
when I say "Christian Church" I mean All True Believers of Christ (all the saved)
Not a Denomination


Does the Christian church keep the true Sabbath

Obviously some folks do and some don't...I personally do not...I have prayed about it...And I just don't feel compelled to. But I think its is Great for those that wish too.

Same goes for the Feast days and other traditions.
If you observe them, thats Great...I don't.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Colossians 2
13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.


16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

;D

[philo beddoe]

http://www.google.com/search?q=isis+ra+el&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[7th trump]

I think it may be the Christian church (bride of Christ) that is the True Israel.


Ken,
Which Christian Church? There are 1000's in the US alone and they all teach something different.
Does the Christian church keep the true Sabbath? Does the Christian Church keep all of the instructions in the Torah?(first 5 books) Does the Christian Church keep the set apart days - the days that Yahua set apart as clean - there are 7 high (clean) days - The feast of first fruits and wave loaf was last week - did you hear of any church or your church observe it? Does the Christian church keep the calendar and times that was revealed, or do they use the Roman Calendar or the Jews the Babylonian Calendar?

With all due respect, have you ever prayed for answers to all your questions? For the Father to give you wisdom and discernment and to show you the truth in all matters? I do think that it says somewhere in scriptures that you are to come to the Father for all your needs.

"I don't hide behind a man made religion, I walk with my Father."

Ken, this post is no way meant to insult or be belittling to you. Just questions!!

Actually Ima everyday is a sabbath.
Christ became our rest or sabbath.

[StackerKen]

Amen 7th

[StackerKen]

I try to keep the ten commandments Ima. I'm sorry to say I still fall short though. :(

Are you saying we are saved by our good works, and by keeping the commands and keeping his appointed times and Sabbath?

If thats what you are saying and if you are right.

I'm in a world of hurt.

Or maybe.... He who has begun a good work in me, will carry it through to completion on the day of Christ Jesus?

[Jazkal]

(Rev 12:17 [MKJV])
And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


(Rev 14:12 [MKJV])
Here is the patience of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.


(Rev 22:14 [AKJV])
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


So you want everlasting life?
You want to be considered an 'end time' saint?

Looks to me like there are TWO requirements:

1) Keep the commandments of God.
2) Have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Seems to me, that the majority of 'Christian religions' don't fit these requirements. i think they will more fit this scripture:

(Matt 7:22-23 [MKJV])
Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works? And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!

[StackerKen]

All Have Sinned and Fall Short of the Glory of God

[Jazkal]

All Have Sinned and Fall Short of the Glory of God

Thankfully God has provided a means of forgiveness of our sins. One of the requirements of this forgiveness of sins, is repentance. If you are truly repentant of the sins you do, then you try not to repeat them. Unfortunately God does not forgive sins that you are not repentant of.

Real question I'd like to get an answer for:
If I steal an apple every day on my way to work, and afterword I say 'God please forgive me my sin'. Remember, tomorrow I shall steal again. Is my sin forgiven?

If you answer 'Yes' to this question, please explain with scripture.


(Rom 6:15 [AKJV])
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

[StackerKen]

Jaz I don't know the answer to your question. and it may not be the same for everyone.

But Of course you are right . There must be repentance.
With out repentance there is no forgiveness.

I think that if we are in Christ and Christ is in us, We have a desire to Please the Father.
and when we are tempted, we are shown a way out and Usually do not fall. Sometimes we do and when we do, I think Repentance comes naturally.
At least that is the way it seems to work for me.

Humbling oneself is also important. :)


Luke 18
9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about[a] himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'
13"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

[LuckyStrike]

All Have Sinned and Fall Short of the Glory of God

Thankfully God has provided a means of forgiveness of our sins. One of the requirements of this forgiveness of sins, is repentance. If you are truly repentant of the sins you do, then you try not to repeat them. Unfortunately God does not forgive sins that you are not repentant of.

Real question I'd like to get an answer for:
If I steal an apple every day on my way to work, and afterword I say 'God please forgive me my sin'. Remember, tomorrow I shall steal again. Is my sin forgiven?





Exactly he said "go and sin no more" not your sins are forgiven just say 5 hail marys and 3 our fathers.

[silver solution]

Nordic; I can't say whether or not the people living in Israel are the True Israel of the bible end times.
I think it may be the Christian church (bride of Christ) that is the True Israel.
But I'm not sure bout that. (is that your thinking?)

I do know this

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
The name Israel was given to two brothers. First book of the Bible. They became a commonwealth or multiude of nations.

Not one of these two men where Jews or of The House of Judah.

[silver solution]

All Have Sinned and Fall Short of the Glory of God

Thankfully God has provided a means of forgiveness of our sins. One of the requirements of this forgiveness of sins, is repentance. If you are truly repentant of the sins you do, then you try not to repeat them. Unfortunately God does not forgive sins that you are not repentant of.

Real question I'd like to get an answer for:
If I steal an apple every day on my way to work, and afterword I say 'God please forgive me my sin'. Remember, tomorrow I shall steal again. Is my sin forgiven?

If you answer 'Yes' to this question, please explain with scripture.


(Rom 6:15 [AKJV])
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.


If you picked the Apple from a tree it is not stealing :-)

[bellevuebully]

I think it may be the Christian church (bride of Christ) that is the True Israel.


Ken,
Which Christian Church? There are 1000's in the US alone and they all teach something different.
Does the Christian church keep the true Sabbath? Does the Christian Church keep all of the instructions in the Torah?(first 5 books) Does the Christian Church keep the set apart days - the days that Yahua set apart as clean - there are 7 high (clean) days - The feast of first fruits and wave loaf was last week - did you hear of any church or your church observe it? Does the Christian church keep the calendar and times that was revealed, or do they use the Roman Calendar or the Jews the Babylonian Calendar?

With all due respect, have you ever prayed for answers to all your questions? For the Father to give you wisdom and discernment and to show you the truth in all matters? I do think that it says somewhere in scriptures that you are to come to the Father for all your needs.

"I don't hide behind a man made religion, I walk with my Father."Ken, this post is no way meant to insult or be belittling to you. Just questions!!

Actually Ima everyday is a sabbath.
Christ became our rest or sabbath.

Seventh Day Adventism........sounds good, but like all other false gospels, 99% truth, 1% total lie. Sorry Ima, just telling it as the scriptures lay it out. A gospel of works, modelled around being UNDER the law, much different than having the law written on your heart and mind. If you want to talk scripture, I am more than willing to share my thoughts. Also, take a good honest look at SDA self-proclaimed prophetess Elleen White. No different a story than Joseph Smith of the mormons or Charles Taze Russell of the JW's.....a string of false prophecies which were later re-interpreted for the adherents in order to maintain some form of validity.

Also, as mentioned above with regard to praying for answers and insight.....we already have the primary source of insight into Truth....the Word of God. If we can not discern what is right in front of our eyes, how then shall we discern what is in our hearts, as it is our hearts that are decietful above all things. The word must be our primary measure.

I find it especially interesting how SDA appeals to the obvious heresies within the Vatican to validate their message and set themselves up as the only 'true and viable' option, and even more interesting how even the Vatican has postured that either they are right, or the SDA's are right....but that is how our adversary operates.....as an expert in double, triple and quadruple agencies, never pointing to the truth, but only to another falsity.

No personal slight meant here Ima.....we are all in this same battle. But many will come with false messages and it is our duty as students of the word to weigh all messages by the truth of his word and the message of the SDA's falls many miles short.

It is these truths that the SDA's avoid, much like the JW's avoid the multitude of scripture testifying to Christ's deity. With regard to dietary restrictions and the sabbath, Paul made these issues quite clear, yet like all false gospels, SDA's muddy the waters beyond any recognition.

Bottom line.....wonderful people with good intentions, unfortunately being led to a false message.

**Sorry Nordic...no intention to derail your thread. If anyone wants to discuss further, I will start a new thread discussing the false gospel of the SDA church and the massive agenda and campaign they are currently waging covertly to gather adherents.

[silver solution]

"It is these truths that the SDA's avoid, much like the JW's avoid the multitude of scripture testifying to Christ's deity. With regard to dietary restrictions and the sabbath, Paul made these issues quite clear, yet like all false gospels, SDA's muddy the waters beyond any recognition."


"Paul, in attempting to teach, was dis-obeying his Master (Matthew 23:8-10) and has caused more damage to Christ's Mission and Kingdom than anyone else has because all of the "so-called" christian religions are based on the letters of Paul and NOT on the Teaching of Christ. Some of the letters, or parts of his letters, were not even written or dictated by Paul but are still attributed to him, by the churches, who have founded themselves, AGAINST Christ's orders (Matthew 6:5 & 6), on what are referred to as being "the Letters of Paul". J.A Hill

You follow Pauls teaching "then you are NOT Christ's but Paul's. You are not Christ's but Paulians and in MIS-understanding Paul you are satan's because you are doing something other than the "Will of God" (Islam in Arabic) and there is NO middle-ground. "Those who are not WITH Me, gathering together and building My Kingdom (not church or religion) are AGAINST Me and are scattering abroad (disuniting and creating hostility between the believers)" (Matthew 12:30 & Genesis 49:10)." J.A Hill

Paul could not change Gods Laws, Statutes; Judgements; Economic Policy; Agricultural Policy and diet that God gave to Israel.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the 'lost sheep' of the "House of Israel" (the Ten "Lost" Tribes of Israel who became Christ's, at least in name).

The christian church has purposely wrongly translated the word "community" in the Bible to try to justify their own existence and the "holy people" (Israel) as "saints" to deceive everyone and hide the Truth, so that they could then falsely claim to be Israel the church, instead of Israel the NATION. Jesus Gave The Kingdom to a nation bringing forth fruits. This nation was bring forth fruit before Jesus even started preaching in the Holy Land. He took the Kingdom from The House of Judah and or the Jews.

We were told to preach the Gospel of the KINGDOM, not the church, to all NATIONS not churches, for a witness.



"Christianity as you know it should be more
accurately titled "Paulianity or Churchianity". J.A.Hill

"People follow the "so-called" teaching of Paul rather than Christ and go to church because they are lazy and are looking for an "easy-path" and there is NO easy path. So they are being deceived by satan and are suffering from "Self"-delusion and become priests and "agents of evil", unwittingly, most of them." J.A.Hill

Matthew 7
7:13 Enter ye in at the "Strait" gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way (the "easy-path"), that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat (most of mankind):
7:14 Because Strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] The Way (like the eye of a needle), which leadeth unto Life, and (extremely) few there be that find it (as the "Times of Noah"will it be").

People spend lifetimes trying to understand what Paul meant in his letters, instead of spending their time studying, doing and "Living" the Teaching of Christ and DAILY crucifying "Self", as Paul had already done. "Take up your cross DAILY and follow ME - MY example and Teaching on how to do it." (Luke 9:23).

Christ came to set up His Kingdom using His Servant NATION Israel, not Judah, as a foundation for it and then by implementing the NATIONAL Laws; Statutes; Judgements; Economic Policy; Agricultural Policy and healthy balanced diet, that God gave to Israel for all the world to follow when they come to Christ.

The Nations of the Kingdom failed in teaching the truth and today preach democracy (demon-crazy) and are ruled by the people that God Hates. They are Doomed because of this evil unless things change.

[bellevuebully]

Be gone a few days, but I will get back to this thread.

[bellevuebully]

"It is these truths that the SDA's avoid, much like the JW's avoid the multitude of scripture testifying to Christ's deity. With regard to dietary restrictions and the sabbath, Paul made these issues quite clear, yet like all false gospels, SDA's muddy the waters beyond any recognition."


"Paul, in attempting to teach, was dis-obeying his Master (Matthew 23:8-10) and has caused more damage to Christ's Mission and Kingdom than anyone else has because all of the "so-called" christian religions are based on the letters of Paul and NOT on the Teaching of Christ. Some of the letters, or parts of his letters, were not even written or dictated by Paul but are still attributed to him, by the churches, who have founded themselves, AGAINST Christ's orders (Matthew 6:5 & 6), on what are referred to as being "the Letters of Paul". J.A Hill

You follow Pauls teaching "then you are NOT Christ's but Paul's. You are not Christ's but Paulians and in MIS-understanding Paul you are satan's because you are doing something other than the "Will of God" (Islam in Arabic) and there is NO middle-ground. "Those who are not WITH Me, gathering together and building My Kingdom (not church or religion) are AGAINST Me and are scattering abroad (disuniting and creating hostility between the believers)" (Matthew 12:30 & Genesis 49:10)." J.A Hill

Paul could not change Gods Laws, Statutes; Judgements; Economic Policy; Agricultural Policy and diet that God gave to Israel.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the 'lost sheep' of the "House of Israel" (the Ten "Lost" Tribes of Israel who became Christ's, at least in name).

The christian church has purposely wrongly translated the word "community" in the Bible to try to justify their own existence and the "holy people" (Israel) as "saints" to deceive everyone and hide the Truth, so that they could then falsely claim to be Israel the church, instead of Israel the NATION. Jesus Gave The Kingdom to a nation bringing forth fruits. This nation was bring forth fruit before Jesus even started preaching in the Holy Land. He took the Kingdom from The House of Judah and or the Jews.

We were told to preach the Gospel of the KINGDOM, not the church, to all NATIONS not churches, for a witness.



"Christianity as you know it should be more
accurately titled "Paulianity or Churchianity". J.A.Hill

"People follow the "so-called" teaching of Paul rather than Christ and go to church because they are lazy and are looking for an "easy-path" and there is NO easy path. So they are being deceived by satan and are suffering from "Self"-delusion and become priests and "agents of evil", unwittingly, most of them." J.A.Hill

Matthew 7
7:13 Enter ye in at the "Strait" gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way (the "easy-path"), that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat (most of mankind):
7:14 Because Strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] The Way (like the eye of a needle), which leadeth unto Life, and (extremely) few there be that find it (as the "Times of Noah"will it be").

People spend lifetimes trying to understand what Paul meant in his letters, instead of spending their time studying, doing and "Living" the Teaching of Christ and DAILY crucifying "Self", as Paul had already done. "Take up your cross DAILY and follow ME - MY example and Teaching on how to do it." (Luke 9:23).

Christ came to set up His Kingdom using His Servant NATION Israel, not Judah, as a foundation for it and then by implementing the NATIONAL Laws; Statutes; Judgements; Economic Policy; Agricultural Policy and healthy balanced diet, that God gave to Israel for all the world to follow when they come to Christ.

The Nations of the Kingdom failed in teaching the truth and today preach democracy (demon-crazy) and are ruled by the people that God Hates. They are Doomed because of this evil unless things change.




I certainly don't want to sound harsh in my response to you ss....but your retort kind of speaks for itself. I'll explain myself a little further down.

First off, I want to say that normally, when trying to point out facts about scripture, or to convey truths found in scripture, my primary source of information is......well, scripture of course. As I said, trying not to sound harsh, I tend not to do this with folks involved in the false gospels of organizations such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormanism, or th SDA. The reason for this is that many of the truths in scripture have been twisted so far beyond recognition by these institutions, by use of slick and clever-sounding arguments, that it is very hard for most within these organizations to see them for what they really say.

That being said, it is not impossible that they recognize these deceptions, but in order to do so, they have to begin by first asking themselves some hard and honest questions. I'll point the most important one below, and in doing so, I'll also illustrate my comment above regarding how your retort speaks for itself.

Question 1.....Who am I really following?

In your retort, you accuse most professing Christians as being followers of Paul, because we regard Paul's writings as being a part of the revelation of Jesus Christ, through the inspired and God-breathed Word. Thus you call us Paulians.

First I would ask you.......Was it you who came up with this notion, or did somebody plant this notion in your head? Who are you following?

Second, I would ask you.....As an SDA, I assume you follow dietary restrictions, Levetical laws, and Saturday Sabbath observance. You also claim to only follow the teachings of Jesus. I will remind you these teachings were passed down by authors through text.....presumably Moses (the Law) and Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (the gospels/teachings of Christ). By your (or more accurately, someone else's) logic then, would that not make you a Mosesian, or a Matthewian, or a Lukian or a Johnian? Very serious question, because the logic you present regarding Pauls writings and the truth contained within them is absurd. Again, who are you following?

Thirdly, I would ask you if you really thought that God Almighty would execute a plan of redemption, and keep it hidden from man until the mid 1800's? Again, who are you following?

And lastly, you gave 4 quotes from JA Hill above to support your contention.....once again, who are you following?

Again, this is not meant to sound harsh. It is also not a 'debate' that I 'need' to win. This is an eternal issue of truth, which I would simply encourage you to examine. I can honestly say that I have.

In the peace and love of Jesus Christ
Bb

[silver solution]

I try and follow The Way.

[bellevuebully]

I try and follow The Way.


The problem, which I illustrated above, is that many false teachers falsely promote 'The Way', the SDA being one of the many of them. Not all Jesus' are the Lord Jesus.

(Sorry Nordic, if this derails any further from the ot, I promise to start another thread.)

[LuckyStrike]

(Sorry Nordic, if this derails any further from the ot, I promise to start another thread.)


Not a problem.
:)

[D sciple]

I try and follow The Way.


The problem, which I illustrated above, is that many false teachers falsely promote 'The Way', the SDA being one of the many of them. Not all Jesus' are the Lord Jesus.

(Sorry Nordic, if this derails any further from the ot, I promise to start another thread.)



I've read a lot of "work" on John Hills site so I think I have a decent overview of his "way". From what I've read he regards no organized religion. I've never seen John Hill mention anything about seventh day adventist. Who gave the Law? God to Moses, or the SDA? Is the SDA now promoting John Hills work or did you come to that conclusion because they seem to be the only organized religion that supports the Law?

He claims that the British Crown descends from King David and is therefore the head of Israel. Which laws and statues would you recommend the tribe of Joseph follow. Gods laws given to Moses or some man made b.s handing them over to the Jews?

[silver solution]

I try and follow The Way.


The problem, which I illustrated above, is that many false teachers falsely promote 'The Way', the SDA being one of the many of them. Not all Jesus' are the Lord Jesus.

(Sorry Nordic, if this derails any further from the ot, I promise to start another thread.)



I've read a lot of "work" on John Hills site so I think I have a decent overview of his "way". From what I've read he regards no organized religion. I've never seen John Hill mention anything about seventh day adventist. Who gave the Law? God to Moses, or the SDA? Is the SDA now promoting John Hills work or did you come to that conclusion because they seem to be the only organized religion that supports the Law?

He claims that the British Crown descends from King David and is therefore the head of Israel. Which laws and statues would you recommend the tribe of Joseph follow. Gods laws given to Moses or some man made b.s handing them over to the Jews?
The Way is Gods Way.

Jesus did things according to The Way. If you are a follower of Jesus Christ you are a Follower of Gods Way.

If you do not do Follow "The Way" you are a follower of some thing else but not Jesus or His Father.

Jesus said, "I am The Way, the Truth and the Life" and "no man comes to the Father except by me" The Covenant is called "The Way" in The Torah and Jesus was saying that he was a living demonstration of it (The Way) in action, demonstrating to all and KEEPing Gods COMMANDMENTS; LAWS; Statutes; Judgements; Economic Policy; Agricultural Policy and Diet showing how YOU have to be if YOU want to survive and go home to your Father in heaven.

[silver solution]

I certainly don't want to sound harsh in my response to you ss....but your retort kind of speaks for itself. I'll explain myself a little further down.

First off, I want to say that normally, when trying to point out facts about scripture, or to convey truths found in scripture, my primary source of information is......well, scripture of course. As I said, trying not to sound harsh, I tend not to do this with folks involved in the false gospels of organizations such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormanism, or th SDA. The reason for this is that many of the truths in scripture have been twisted so far beyond recognition by these institutions, by use of slick and clever-sounding arguments, that it is very hard for most within these organizations to see them for what they really say.

That being said, it is not impossible that they recognize these deceptions, but in order to do so, they have to begin by first asking themselves some hard and honest questions. I'll point the most important one below, and in doing so, I'll also illustrate my comment above regarding how your retort speaks for itself.

Question 1.....Who am I really following?

In your retort, you accuse most professing Christians as being followers of Paul, because we regard Paul's writings as being a part of the revelation of Jesus Christ, through the inspired and God-breathed Word. Thus you call us Paulians.

First I would ask you.......Was it you who came up with this notion, or did somebody plant this notion in your head? Who are you following?

Second, I would ask you.....As an SDA, I assume you follow dietary restrictions, Levetical laws, and Saturday Sabbath observance. You also claim to only follow the teachings of Jesus. I will remind you these teachings were passed down by authors through text.....presumably Moses (the Law) and Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (the gospels/teachings of Christ). By your (or more accurately, someone else's) logic then, would that not make you a Mosesian, or a Matthewian, or a Lukian or a Johnian? Very serious question, because the logic you present regarding Pauls writings and the truth contained within them is absurd. Again, who are you following?

Thirdly, I would ask you if you really thought that God Almighty would execute a plan of redemption, and keep it hidden from man until the mid 1800's? Again, who are you following?

And lastly, you gave 4 quotes from JA Hill above to support your contention.....once again, who are you following?

Again, this is not meant to sound harsh. It is also not a 'debate' that I 'need' to win. This is an eternal issue of truth, which I would simply encourage you to examine. I can honestly say that I have.

In the peace and love of Jesus Christ
Bb
[/quote]

George Gordon used to be on the radio after some people I liked listening to. He was fine when he talked about gold, silver and stuff like that but then he would start talking Bible and piss me off and I would turn him off. This went on for very long time. One day I said I had enough and was going to prove him wrong.

Well the more I looked into it and studied the more I came to believe old George was right.

I'm not a SDA and have never been. I was raised catholic and when older and went to churches I went to protestant churches. Never ever even been in a SDA church.

I do not go to any church.

I follow The Way as Jesus did. So yes I do try and Honour my Father in Heaven and KEEP His COMMANDMENTS; LAWS; Statutes; Judgements; Economic Policy; Agricultural Policy and Diet. I'm not as good at it as Jesus was:-)

J.A.Hill seems to be a very good guy and brave. Like old George he seems to be right about the Bible. I spent lots and lots of time trying to prove them wrong but when It comes to the Bible I could not.

I believe they are right and I was wrong!!

I follow the Jesus "The Way, the Truth and the Life" not a church or Paul.

[bellevuebully]

I'm not a SDA and have never been.

You should have said something sooner. When you posted a response to my response to Ima, I incorrectly interpreted that post as you identifying with SDA. No harm or foul intended.

Would I be correct in saying that you adhere to the writings and theology of J.A. Hill? Aka JAH?

The theological premise is very similar, with the references to "Paulianity", the "way", and adherance to the Law, etc. Maybe that is why I associated the two as being the same.

edit..

SS, on a positive note, there are some things that we are in complete agreement on. One being that the Law is holy and right, and it is the model for which God intends, well actually demands, that we reflect in order for us to be justified to be in His presence. If you are willing, let's start a new dialogue based on this common ground. It will give us each an opportunity to state our points of view on certain issues, and to better understand each others'. It doesn't have to be based on heavy theology, but about basic ideas and concepts which surround the things we believe to be true (although I am not opposed to discussing weightier theology).

Obviously, we also have some differing opinions towards which I am sure we can show mutual respect.

What do you say? Are you interested?

[silver solution]

I'm not a SDA and have never been.

You should have said something sooner. When you posted a response to my response to Ima, I incorrectly interpreted that post as you identifying with SDA. No harm or foul intended.

Would I be correct in saying that you adhere to the writings and theology of J.A. Hill? Aka JAH?

The theological premise is very similar, with the references to "Paulianity", the "way", and adherance to the Law, etc. Maybe that is why I associated the two as being the same.

edit..

SS, on a positive note, there are some things that we are in complete agreement on. One being that the Law is holy and right, and it is the model for which God intends, well actually demands, that we reflect in order for us to be justified to be in His presence. If you are willing, let's start a new dialogue based on this common ground. It will give us each an opportunity to state our points of view on certain issues, and to better understand each others'. It doesn't have to be based on heavy theology, but about basic ideas and concepts which surround the things we believe to be true (although I am not opposed to discussing weightier theology).

Obviously, we also have some differing opinions towards which I am sure we can show mutual respect.

What do you say? Are you interested?





Sure but look how long it took me to find this one again :-).

I think J.A Hill is right about a most the info on his site. I think his Bible is best by FAR.

[bellevuebully]

I'm not a SDA and have never been.

You should have said something sooner. When you posted a response to my response to Ima, I incorrectly interpreted that post as you identifying with SDA. No harm or foul intended.

Would I be correct in saying that you adhere to the writings and theology of J.A. Hill? Aka JAH?

The theological premise is very similar, with the references to "Paulianity", the "way", and adherance to the Law, etc. Maybe that is why I associated the two as being the same.

edit..

SS, on a positive note, there are some things that we are in complete agreement on. One being that the Law is holy and right, and it is the model for which God intends, well actually demands, that we reflect in order for us to be justified to be in His presence. If you are willing, let's start a new dialogue based on this common ground. It will give us each an opportunity to state our points of view on certain issues, and to better understand each others'. It doesn't have to be based on heavy theology, but about basic ideas and concepts which surround the things we believe to be true (although I am not opposed to discussing weightier theology).

Obviously, we also have some differing opinions towards which I am sure we can show mutual respect.

What do you say? Are you interested?





Sure but look how long it took me to find this one again :-).



However, I think that where we disagree, is whether or not we are able to achieve this. If we are all transgressors of the Law as the bible describes (because it is clear we can not follow it), how then is it that we are justified except throught the work of Christ on the cross? Can our own efforts justify? What I see in scripture is that they can not.

I don't so much have an disagreement that the model of the law is good, but that leaning on following it is a way that we can justify ourselves to God. If we can't, who can but Jesus Christ?

Or do you think that this line of thinking excludes one from following his conscience unto good works? ie, following the spirit of the law that is written in our hearts and minds by the work of the Spirit.

Do you believe that following the law justifies you in God's sight?

[bellevuebully]

I don't so much have an disagreement that the model of the law is good, but that leaning on following it is a way that we can justify ourselves to God. If we can't, who can but Jesus Christ?

Or do you think that this line of thinking excludes one from following his conscience unto good works? ie, following the spirit of the law that is written in our hearts and minds by the work of the Spirit.

Do you believe that following the law justifies you in God's sight?




SS....what do you say?

[D sciple]

I'm not a SDA and have never been.

You should have said something sooner. When you posted a response to my response to Ima, I incorrectly interpreted that post as you identifying with SDA. No harm or foul intended.

Would I be correct in saying that you adhere to the writings and theology of J.A. Hill? Aka JAH?

The theological premise is very similar, with the references to "Paulianity", the "way", and adherance to the Law, etc. Maybe that is why I associated the two as being the same.

edit..

SS, on a positive note, there are some things that we are in complete agreement on. One being that the Law is holy and right, and it is the model for which God intends, well actually demands, that we reflect in order for us to be justified to be in His presence. If you are willing, let's start a new dialogue based on this common ground. It will give us each an opportunity to state our points of view on certain issues, and to better understand each others'. It doesn't have to be based on heavy theology, but about basic ideas and concepts which surround the things we believe to be true (although I am not opposed to discussing weightier theology).

Obviously, we also have some differing opinions towards which I am sure we can show mutual respect.

What do you say? Are you interested?





Sure but look how long it took me to find this one again :-).



However, I think that where we disagree, is whether or not we are able to achieve this. If we are all transgressors of the Law as the bible describes (because it is clear we can not follow it), how then is it that we are justified except throught the work of Christ on the cross? Can our own efforts justify? What I see in scripture is that they can not.

I don't so much have an disagreement that the model of the law is good, but that leaning on following it is a way that we can justify ourselves to God. If we can't, who can but Jesus Christ?

Or do you think that this line of thinking excludes one from following his conscience unto good works? ie, following the spirit of the law that is written in our hearts and minds by the work of the Spirit.

Do you believe that following the law justifies you in God's sight?




My assesment of the true theology (imo) that J.A. Hill supports, (which is what your curious about ldo) goes something like this. If you stopped sinning tommarow you would still have your sins of yesterday, enter the necessity of Christ on a cross. Now onto the question how will i stop sinning tommarow and thereafter? Same way Jesus did it. Head to the woods and fast. Gain control over your animal body and do the will of God. Impossible? Try it and find out.

The law is more than a moral code fwiw. It an entire govermental policy as well. The only government that would stop the inevitable enslavement by the Jews. Only the animal sacrifice and Levetical priesthood are replaced by Christ.

Jesus said if you could love God with all your heart all your soul and all your might and love your neigbor as yourself, you could fullfill the law.

Note how few the number of people are that receive the seal in the book of revelation.

(also Hill never mentions the fast on his site explicitly, but I think thats the bottom line)

[silver solution]

I don't so much have an disagreement that the model of the law is good, but that leaning on following it is a way that we can justify ourselves to God. If we can't, who can but Jesus Christ?

Or do you think that this line of thinking excludes one from following his conscience unto good works? ie, following the spirit of the law that is written in our hearts and minds by the work of the Spirit.

Do you believe that following the law justifies you in God's sight?




SS....what do you say?
I guess it depends on the meaning of the word justifies:-)

[bellevuebully]

I don't so much have an disagreement that the model of the law is good, but that leaning on following it is a way that we can justify ourselves to God. If we can't, who can but Jesus Christ?

Or do you think that this line of thinking excludes one from following his conscience unto good works? ie, following the spirit of the law that is written in our hearts and minds by the work of the Spirit.

Do you believe that following the law justifies you in God's sight?




SS....what do you say?
I guess it depends on the meaning of the word justifies:-)


Maybe I am wrong, but I think you are being disingenuous in your answer. I've offered you a level-headed discussion and you seem more interested in playing games with my effort. I'm not interested in that kind of exchange. Have a good day.

[silver solution]

I don't so much have an disagreement that the model of the law is good, but that leaning on following it is a way that we can justify ourselves to God. If we can't, who can but Jesus Christ?

Or do you think that this line of thinking excludes one from following his conscience unto good works? ie, following the spirit of the law that is written in our hearts and minds by the work of the Spirit.

Do you believe that following the law justifies you in God's sight?




SS....what do you say?
I guess it depends on the meaning of the word justifies:-)


Maybe I am wrong, but I think you are being disingenuous in your answer. I've offered you a level-headed discussion and you seem more interested in playing games with my effort. I'm not interested in that kind of exchange. Have a good day.


I thought you were just setting a kind of trap with that word?

I thought it was you who were being disingenuous using that word?

We are saved by our Savior but we must do as he did. Which is Follow "The Way". Find the Truth and Get the Life.