Genesis 6:1-4 Another thing to debate?

[StackerKen]

Hopefully we can keep this civil with no insults :-\

This is copy and paste
.................................................. ..................................

Genesis 6:1-4 refers to the sons of God and the daughters of men. There have been several suggestions as to who the sons of God were and why the children they had with daughters of men grew into a race of giants (that is what the word Nephilim seems to indicate).

The three primary views on the identity of the sons of God are 1) they were fallen angels, 2) they were powerful human rulers, or 3) they were godly descendants of Seth intermarrying with wicked descendants of Cain.
.................................................. ........
(this is me....)

One of my radio bible teachers I listen to says it #3


Could there be a 4th or 5th possible explanation?

I heard some here speak of "pre-adamites"(?) (never term heard that before)

Could the "daughters of men" be "pre-adamites"?

[Saul Mine]

The word nephilim appears only a few times in the bible, not always translated the same way. Anybody can read those passages and know exactly as much about the subject as anybody else. Beyond that it's purely a matter of one man's opinion versus another's. Opinions are like butts, you know: everybody has one.

[StackerKen]

Good point Saul.

And from seeing your posts for a couple years now.....I'm pretty sure you know stuff...:)

Should I close the dumb thread then?

[bellevuebully]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1054806571822240020#

Interesting vid with some insightful speculation. If there is one thing I am quite positive of, in all of the half-truths out there, is that we don't know God or His purpose and works near to what we think we do. Whenever something happens that we don't understand, it's....."God, get back into that matchbox".

Anywho, I am not promoting the content of the above vid, but I think the out of the box thinking is important in really exploring what God is doing, and to put it into a context of His work. We as Christians often confess that there is a very real spiritual world at work, but when confronted by it, we really just prefer to live here on earth in our own understandable physical world.

[willie pete]

Hopefully we can keep this civil with no insults :-\

This is copy and paste
.................................................. ..................................

Genesis 6:1-4 refers to the sons of God and the daughters of men. There have been several suggestions as to who the sons of God were and why the children they had with daughters of men grew into a race of giants (that is what the word Nephilim seems to indicate).

The three primary views on the identity of the sons of God are 1) they were fallen angels, 2) they were powerful human rulers, or 3) they were godly descendants of Seth intermarrying with wicked descendants of Cain.
.................................................. ........
(this is me....)

One of my radio bible teachers I listen to says it #3


Could there be a 4th or 5th possible explanation?

I heard some here speak of "pre-adamites"(?) (never term heard that before)

Could the "daughters of men" be "pre-adamites"?



I'd have to go with #3 too; If angels did co-mingle with humans, I think you'd have to consider them evil and I don't think God would refer to them as "sons of God", also verse 4 does say there were giants in the Earth in those days, but it doesn't say they were the offspring of a relationship between humans and angels, it says "after that" is when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them....

[LuckyStrike]

Admittedly I have not done the research but I know the CI perspective is that these were fallen angels who mixed races with Adamites. I believe it is referenced in the apocrypha as well but I haven't read that either so I will leave my comment at that. :-[

[Libertarian_Guard]

I don't know what was going on there, but whatever it was,it caused God to lose his faith in man, and it brought on the great flood!

[greenbear]

Genesis 6: 1-4

The Corruption of Mankind

Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.



(1) The Multiplication of Humanity: Genesis 6:1
And it came to pass when men began to multiply on the face of the ground and daughters were born unto them.
Verse 1 emphasizes the multiplication of humanity before the Flood. The Hebrew word for men used here is generic and refers to humanity in general, including male and female. The word, as such, cannot be limited to the sons of Cain. It included both Sethites and Cainites, and both of these groups died in the flood.

Another key word found in verse 1 is daughters, a Hebrew word that means "females". The emphasis in the second part of verse 1:daughters were born unto them, is on the female portion of humanity. Again, the expression cannot be limited, as some teach, to the female descendants of Cain. It simply is a word that means "the female portion of the population." Verse 1 could read:"Men, humanity, multiplied, and daughters, females, were born unto them." The distinction in verse 1 is not between male Sethites and female Cainites, but the emphasis is on the female portion of humanity in general, which would include both Cainites and Sethites.


(2) The Intermarriage: Genesis 6:2
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Verse 2 describes an intermarriage.


(a) Sons of God
The first key phrase of verse 2 is: sons of God. The phrase the sons of God is a general term which means, "to be brought into existence by God's creative act." Because this term carries this meaning, it is used very selectively. Throughout the Old Testament, the term sons of God. is always used of angels. This is very clear when the same usage is compared with usages in the Old Testament. Elsewhere, the term is used in Job 1:6; 2:1; and 38:7. No one debates that the other places where sons of God. is found in the Old Testament clearly refers to angels. But some want to make Genesis 6:1-4 the one exception, though there is simply no warrant for making such an exception here.

In the New Testament, the term sons of God. is expanded. Adam is called the son of God. in Luke 3:38, because he was brought into existence by creation. Believers are called "sons of God." in John 1:12, because believers are considered to be a new creation according to Galatians 6:15. But in Genesis, the text is dealing with a specific Hebrew expression, benei elohim, and as it is used in the Hebrew Old Testament, it is a term that is always used of Angels. The distinction in this passage, then. is not between Sethites and Cainites, but between humanity and angels. The word men here emphasizes humanity; the term sons of God emphasizes angels.


(B) Daughters of Men
The second key expression in verse 2 is: daughters of men. This is a generic term for woman, which includes females of both Sethites and Cainites. What the verse is saying is: that the sons of God saw the daughters of men. There is no justification for this verse to be interpreted to mean, "godly males intermarried with ungodly females." Would truly godly men marry ungodly females? The daughters of men simply means "womankind," and The sons of God refers to angels. If the meaning is kept consistent with its usage elsewhere in the Old Testament, the passage is clearly speaking of fallen angels intermarrying with human woman. This is obvious in two ways.

First, it is always a one-way intermarriage; it is always sons of God marrying daughters of men. There is no record of "daughters of God" marrying "sons of men." If the distinction was between Sethites and Cainites, it simply would not happen this way. In human society, intermarriage occurs both ways. Today, saved males sometimes marry unsaved females, and sometimes saved females marry unsaved males. If the other claim were true, it would mean that male Sethites married female Cainites, but that male Cainites never married female Sethites which is entirely unlikely. Intermarriage would thus be confined to godly men with ungodly woman, but not godly woman with ungodly men. But in Genesis 6, there is only a one-way intermarriage, the sons of God intermarrying with the daughters of men.

Secondly, the context clearly speaks of a cohabitation that is unusual and unnatural and causes the worldwide Flood. Genesis 6:1-4 deals with the angelic cause of the worlwide Flood, while Genesis 6:5-6 deals with the human cause. Cohabitation between Sethites and Cainites would not be unusual or unnatural, while cohabitation between angels and humans would be.

Those who do not like this teaching object to it by quoting Mathew 22:30; claiming that this verse clearly teaches that angels are sexless: For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
What Yeshua said is that human beings at the resurrection and in heaven do not marry, nor are [they] given in marriage. The angels that Yeshua was speaking of are angels in heaven. The emphasis is that in heaven good angels neither marry, nor are given in marriage. Mathew 22:30 makes the same point about human beings. Humans in heaven do not marry, nor are they given in marriage. But what about humans here on earth? Humans on earth certainly do marry and are given in marriage. This is a contrast between what happens in heaven as over against what happens here on earth. Genesis 6, however, is speaking of angels on earth.

Angels in Heaven do not marry, nor are they given in marriage, and humans in heaven will not marry nor be given in marriage. Angels are never declared to be sexless; in fact, the masculine gender is always used. Mathew 22:30 teaches that angels do not procreate after their kind, meaning that angels do not give birth to other angels. In both the Old and New Testaments, angels are always described in the masculine gender, not in the feminine, nor the neuter. Whenever angels became visible, they always appeared as young men, never as woman (Gen. 18:1-19:22; Mk. 16:5-7; Lk 24:4-7; Acts 1:10-11). So Mathew 22:30 cannot be used as an argument against the angelic interpretation of Genesis 6:1-4 because it is dealing with a situation on earth, not in Heaven; nor does Mathew 22:30 teach that angels are sexless.

Another question is, "Why did Satan have some of his fallen angels intermarry with human woman? Why bother?" The reason can be understood by investigating the greater context of Genesis. Three chapters earlier, the first messianic prophecy is recorded (Gen. 3:15). This prophecy declared that the Messiah would be born of the Seed of the woman, and this Seed would crush the head of Satan. What was happening in Genesis 6:1-4 was a satanic attempt to corrupt the Seed of the woman by having some of his angels take on human form, again, angels always appear as young males when they take on human form, and intermarry with human kind to try to corrupt the Seed. Thus, events of Genesis 6:1-4 were a satanic attempt to nullify the prophecy of Genesis 3:15.


(3) The Result of the Intermarriage: Genesis 6:3
The result of this marriage was the judgment of God: And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
In verse 3, God pronounced the judgment: the Holy Spirit would not continue to strive with this kind of evil forever, and God decreed the destruction of humanity to be fulfilled one hundred and twenty years later. The means of the destruction would be the Flood. The purpose of the Flood was to destroy the product of the union of angels and woman, as discussed in the next verse.


(4) The Product of the Intermarriage: Genesis 6:4
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
To get a clearer concept of the meaning of this verse, individual parts must be discussed first.

(a) The Nephilim: The Fallen Ones
First is the name Nephilim. In some translations the word Nephilim has been translated to the word "giant". People reading this picture huge human beings. But the word in Hebrew does not mean giants, rather, it means, "fallen ones." The reason it was translated as giant is very interesting. In the Septuagint the Greek translation of the Old Testament done about 250 B.C., the Jewish scholars translated verse 4 by the Greek word gigentes, which means "Titan." Our English word "giant" comes from this Greek word, gigentes.

"But what were the Titans in Greek mythology?" They were part-man and part-god, because they were products of gods and men. When the Jewish scholars in 250 B.C. translated the word Nephilim to Greek, they used the Greek word for Titans, becuase they recognized this to be a union, not of two types of human beings, instead, they correctly viewed it as a union of angels and humans, which produced a being that was neither angelic nor human. These Jewish scholars, who lived so much closer to the time when Moses originally wrote this passage, clearly understood this to be an intermarriage between angels and human woman. As a result of this union, a new race of beings called the Nephilim, a race of fallen ones, came into being. They were gigentes, super, human, but not in size. They had extra capabilities, both mentally and physically, though they may not have been any larger than normal human beings.

It is from the events of Genesis 6:1-4 that the source of Greek and Roman mythologies was derived. These mythologies record how gods from Mount Olympus intermarried with human beings on earth and produced children who had super-human characteristics, and were greater than men but less than gods. Thus, the Book of Genesis details the true history of what happened, while Greek and Roman mythologies give the corrupted account. In Greek and Roman mythologies, the human perspective is given, and what happened is elevated to something special and glorified; but God called it sin.


(B) The Giborim: The Mighty Men
The second word to note in this verse is giborim, which is translated as the mighty men...the men of renown. Again, because this was a product of fallen angels and human woman, they were unique; they were the giborim. Notice that there is no mention of mighty woman, which would strange if this were a product of a normal union. After all, a normal union produces both males and females. If this were a natural union, then the product should have been mighty men and mighty women. But the result is only mighty men, because this is a new race of beings that is neither human nor angelic. The only way to explain the origin of the giborim is that they came from this union, which is the point of verse 4.

Only by the angelic explanation of Genesis 6 do other areas of biblical teaching make sense. It provides the only adequate explanation for certain statements in IIPeter and Jude, which will be studied next. It is a peculiar sin; it is connected to the Flood; and it is different from the original Fall of angels; otherwise, all fallen angels would be permanently confined.

b. IIPeter 2:4-5
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Verse 4 gives the location of the permanently confined demons. The temporarily confined demons are found in the abyss, but the permanently confined demons are elsewhere. The Greek word translated in this passage as hell is Tartarus. Tartarus is a section of Sheol or Hades where the permanently confined demons are located. Both the abyss and Tartarus are sections of Sheol or Hades. The abyss is for demons who are temporarily confined, but Tartarus is for demons who are permanently confined. Tartarus is referred to as pits of darkeness, and these angels are reserved [there] unto judgment. This will be the Great White Throne Judgment, the final judgment. This means that at no time will these angels ever be released. When the time comes, they will go directly from Tartarus to stand before the Great White Throne Judgment, and then be cast into the Lake of Fire. There will never be a time when they will be free to roam; they are permanently confined.

Verse 5 reveals the timing of their confinement, which was in conjunction with the Flood. This agrees well with the events of Genesis 6:1-4, which are events that are also connected with the Flood. The purpose of the Flood was to destroy this product of fallen angels and human woman.

By comparing the IIPeter passage with the Genesis passage, there is good evidence to show that Genesis is not speaking about Sethites intermarrying with Cainites, but fallen angels intermarrying with human women. This is a valid conclusion just from a study of the Old Testament passages themselves. However, the New Testament also supports this particular interpretation.


c. Jude 6-7
And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Verse 6 emphasized the fall of a select group of angels and described their fall in four statements.
First: they kept not their own principality. The word principality is frequently used of the angelic realm and is one of the various ranks within the angelic realm. It means that they did not remain in their position and place of rank within the satanic cosmos.
Secondly: they left their proper habitation. They left the demonic-angelic sphere of operation and entered into the human sphere by taking on the form of young men and intermarrying with human woman.
Thirdly: they are now kept in everlasting bonds under darkness. Here, Jude mentioned the same thing as Peter; that these angels are now permanently confined. Peter also revealed the place of their confinement: Tartarus.
Fourthly: they are kept there until the judgment of the great day. Again Jude reaffirms Peter's statements that they are kept in bondage until the judgment of the great day. This also is the Great White Throne Judgment. Once again, it is reaffirmed that these demons will never be free to roam around but are permanently confined in Tartarus. When the time comes, they will be taken out of Tartarus to stand before the Great White Throne Judgment, and then be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Verse 7 deals with the nature of their sin. The phrase is: in like manner. In like manner, as Sodom and Gomorrah, they went after strange flesh. The sin that these angels committed is similar to the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah, the S@xual sin of going after strange flesh. Strange flesh means S@xual union that is unnatural or contrary to nature. In the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, the strange flesh was H*m*s*xuality. In the case of these angels, the strange flesh was female flesh. Instead of remaining in their usual state of residence, they invaded a new state of residence of alien flesh to commit gross S@xual immorality. So Sodom and Gomorrah and these angels have one thing in common; they are guilty of S@xual sins. In the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, it was H*m*s*xuality; in the case of these angels, it was intermarrying into the human sphere.

By comparing the Genesis passage with the passages in IIPeter and Jude, it is clear that these were angels who intermarried with human woman, and not simply Sethites who intermarried with Cainites.

d. Summary
To summarize the origin of demons: all demons have the same initial origin in that they fell with Satan. However, sometime after that fall, some of Satan's fallen angels married human woman for the purpose of trying to corrupt the Seed of the woman in order to thwart the first messianic prophecy of Genesis 3:15. These particular angels are now permanently confined in Tartarus. The others are free, but periodically many of them are temporarily confind in the abyss before eventually being released to roam free again. The difference is between receiving a temporary sentence in jail as over against a life sentence. Eventually, of course, all demons will be eternally confined to the Lake of Fire following the Great White Throne Judgment.

Reference(s): Transcript MBS-082 http://www.ariel.org/ffruit.htm#top- Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum,

Transcript mbs-073 http://www.ariel.org/ffruit.htm#top

[7th trump]

I know most, if not all, dont like Arnold Murray of http://www.shepherdschapel.com/index.htm , but what green here posted Arnold Murray has been teaching for decades.

This here:


Another question is, "Why did Satan have some of his fallen angels intermarry with human woman? Why bother?" The reason can be understood by investigating the greater context of Genesis. Three chapters earlier, the first messianic prophecy is recorded (Gen. 3:15). This prophecy declared that the Messiah would be born of the Seed of the woman, and this Seed would crush the head of Satan. What was happening in Genesis 6:1-4 was a satanic attempt to corrupt the Seed of the woman by having some of his angels take on human form, again, angels always appear as young males when they take on human form, and intermarry with human kind to try to corrupt the Seed. Thus, events of Genesis 6:1-4 were a satanic attempt to nullify the prophecy of Genesis 3:15.

Did I not say this very same thing that green just posted a few weeks ago about the tree of knowledge of good and evil (being satan) and the Tree of Life (Jesus) would crush the head of satan (destroyed by burning to ashes from within)?
And what did green have to say about me for this?
Oh yea............thats right I was making this all up and spreading a lie.........
Go figure!

But one thing...................angels dont take on the human form.....................remember God created the flesh in "our image". Meaning we look in the flesh no different than what we did when we were in angelic bodies that do not get sick, sleep or tire.
What each and every one of you are missing is that the "Sons of God" is just merely describing an angel or angels because angels are not flesh like man is. "Man" was created in the flesh, a clay pot that when breaks you go back to the lord. Death is merely the spirit (your intellectual self, angelic body) stepping out of the clay flesh pot. See the difference? Now go reread with that in mind and things should come out a bit clearer for you.
You guys will come around eventually about the three earth ages or just listen to Arnold Murray read right out the Bible word for word and chapter by chapter.

[StackerKen]

There are places in the bible where angels of the lord take on the form of a human body

Im not sure if if was just in appearance...or if they actually had bodies...

I don't know of anywhere in the bible where demons (fallen angels) had bodies or even were seen.

[Saul Mine]

There were no half breed babies born to angels and humans.

John 3:6 - That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

[7th trump]

There were no half breed babies born to angels and humans.

John 3:6 - That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Ok John 3:6 is taken out of context out of complete ignorance of operation of the english language.
Saul Mine go back to John and try and figure out what the subject is in John. There are to many idiots on this board that cannot differentiate the subject from the object or the object from the subject and spurt out other passages that have no bearing on passages in question.
Saul in John whats the subject? (This isnt hard Saul. Its third grade grammar for Christ sake.)
In other words for the ignorant in this thread is John speaking about angels and humans having offspring as in Genesis:6 or not for John 3:6 to have any bearing in Genesis:6?


You people are gonna get so fooled into worshipping the devil its not even funny..................its very very sad!
But then again stupid does what stupid is.

I'm just about to that point where it isnt even worth my time to talk to idiots who repeatedly listen to idiots and speak idiocy.
I fully understand why God will give strong dillusion to those willing to listen to idiots rather than to God.

[7th trump]

Genesis 6: 1-4

The Corruption of Mankind

Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.



(1) The Multiplication of Humanity: Genesis 6:1
And it came to pass when men began to multiply on the face of the ground and daughters were born unto them.
Verse 1 emphasizes the multiplication of humanity before the Flood. The Hebrew word for men used here is generic and refers to humanity in general, including male and female. The word, as such, cannot be limited to the sons of Cain. It included both Sethites and Cainites, and both of these groups died in the flood.

Another key word found in verse 1 is daughters, a Hebrew word that means "females". The emphasis in the second part of verse 1:daughters were born unto them, is on the female portion of humanity. Again, the expression cannot be limited, as some teach, to the female descendants of Cain. It simply is a word that means "the female portion of the population." Verse 1 could read:"Men, humanity, multiplied, and daughters, females, were born unto them." The distinction in verse 1 is not between male Sethites and female Cainites, but the emphasis is on the female portion of humanity in general, which would include both Cainites and Sethites.


(2) The Intermarriage: Genesis 6:2
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Verse 2 describes an intermarriage.


(a) Sons of God
The first key phrase of verse 2 is: sons of God. The phrase the sons of God is a general term which means, "to be brought into existence by God's creative act." Because this term carries this meaning, it is used very selectively. Throughout the Old Testament, the term sons of God. is always used of angels. This is very clear when the same usage is compared with usages in the Old Testament. Elsewhere, the term is used in Job 1:6; 2:1; and 38:7. No one debates that the other places where sons of God. is found in the Old Testament clearly refers to angels. But some want to make Genesis 6:1-4 the one exception, though there is simply no warrant for making such an exception here.

In the New Testament, the term sons of God. is expanded. Adam is called the son of God. in Luke 3:38, because he was brought into existence by creation. Believers are called "sons of God." in John 1:12, because believers are considered to be a new creation according to Galatians 6:15. But in Genesis, the text is dealing with a specific Hebrew expression, benei elohim, and as it is used in the Hebrew Old Testament, it is a term that is always used of Angels. The distinction in this passage, then. is not between Sethites and Cainites, but between humanity and angels. The word men here emphasizes humanity; the term sons of God emphasizes angels.


(B) Daughters of Men
The second key expression in verse 2 is: daughters of men. This is a generic term for woman, which includes females of both Sethites and Cainites. What the verse is saying is: that the sons of God saw the daughters of men. There is no justification for this verse to be interpreted to mean, "godly males intermarried with ungodly females." Would truly godly men marry ungodly females? The daughters of men simply means "womankind," and The sons of God refers to angels. If the meaning is kept consistent with its usage elsewhere in the Old Testament, the passage is clearly speaking of fallen angels intermarrying with human woman. This is obvious in two ways.

First, it is always a one-way intermarriage; it is always sons of God marrying daughters of men. There is no record of "daughters of God" marrying "sons of men." If the distinction was between Sethites and Cainites, it simply would not happen this way. In human society, intermarriage occurs both ways. Today, saved males sometimes marry unsaved females, and sometimes saved females marry unsaved males. If the other claim were true, it would mean that male Sethites married female Cainites, but that male Cainites never married female Sethites which is entirely unlikely. Intermarriage would thus be confined to godly men with ungodly woman, but not godly woman with ungodly men. But in Genesis 6, there is only a one-way intermarriage, the sons of God intermarrying with the daughters of men.

Secondly, the context clearly speaks of a cohabitation that is unusual and unnatural and causes the worldwide Flood. Genesis 6:1-4 deals with the angelic cause of the worlwide Flood, while Genesis 6:5-6 deals with the human cause. Cohabitation between Sethites and Cainites would not be unusual or unnatural, while cohabitation between angels and humans would be.

Those who do not like this teaching object to it by quoting Mathew 22:30; claiming that this verse clearly teaches that angels are sexless: For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
What Yeshua said is that human beings at the resurrection and in heaven do not marry, nor are [they] given in marriage. The angels that Yeshua was speaking of are angels in heaven. The emphasis is that in heaven good angels neither marry, nor are given in marriage. Mathew 22:30 makes the same point about human beings. Humans in heaven do not marry, nor are they given in marriage. But what about humans here on earth? Humans on earth certainly do marry and are given in marriage. This is a contrast between what happens in heaven as over against what happens here on earth. Genesis 6, however, is speaking of angels on earth.

Angels in Heaven do not marry, nor are they given in marriage, and humans in heaven will not marry nor be given in marriage. Angels are never declared to be sexless; in fact, the masculine gender is always used. Mathew 22:30 teaches that angels do not procreate after their kind, meaning that angels do not give birth to other angels. In both the Old and New Testaments, angels are always described in the masculine gender, not in the feminine, nor the neuter. Whenever angels became visible, they always appeared as young men, never as woman (Gen. 18:1-19:22; Mk. 16:5-7; Lk 24:4-7; Acts 1:10-11). So Mathew 22:30 cannot be used as an argument against the angelic interpretation of Genesis 6:1-4 because it is dealing with a situation on earth, not in Heaven; nor does Mathew 22:30 teach that angels are sexless.

Another question is, "Why did Satan have some of his fallen angels intermarry with human woman? Why bother?" The reason can be understood by investigating the greater context of Genesis. Three chapters earlier, the first messianic prophecy is recorded (Gen. 3:15). This prophecy declared that the Messiah would be born of the Seed of the woman, and this Seed would crush the head of Satan. What was happening in Genesis 6:1-4 was a satanic attempt to corrupt the Seed of the woman by having some of his angels take on human form, again, angels always appear as young males when they take on human form, and intermarry with human kind to try to corrupt the Seed. Thus, events of Genesis 6:1-4 were a satanic attempt to nullify the prophecy of Genesis 3:15.


(3) The Result of the Intermarriage: Genesis 6:3
The result of this marriage was the judgment of God: And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
In verse 3, God pronounced the judgment: the Holy Spirit would not continue to strive with this kind of evil forever, and God decreed the destruction of humanity to be fulfilled one hundred and twenty years later. The means of the destruction would be the Flood. The purpose of the Flood was to destroy the product of the union of angels and woman, as discussed in the next verse.


(4) The Product of the Intermarriage: Genesis 6:4
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
To get a clearer concept of the meaning of this verse, individual parts must be discussed first.

(a) The Nephilim: The Fallen Ones
First is the name Nephilim. In some translations the word Nephilim has been translated to the word "giant". People reading this picture huge human beings. But the word in Hebrew does not mean giants, rather, it means, "fallen ones." The reason it was translated as giant is very interesting. In the Septuagint the Greek translation of the Old Testament done about 250 B.C., the Jewish scholars translated verse 4 by the Greek word gigentes, which means "Titan." Our English word "giant" comes from this Greek word, gigentes.

"But what were the Titans in Greek mythology?" They were part-man and part-god, because they were products of gods and men. When the Jewish scholars in 250 B.C. translated the word Nephilim to Greek, they used the Greek word for Titans, becuase they recognized this to be a union, not of two types of human beings, instead, they correctly viewed it as a union of angels and humans, which produced a being that was neither angelic nor human. These Jewish scholars, who lived so much closer to the time when Moses originally wrote this passage, clearly understood this to be an intermarriage between angels and human woman. As a result of this union, a new race of beings called the Nephilim, a race of fallen ones, came into being. They were gigentes, super, human, but not in size. They had extra capabilities, both mentally and physically, though they may not have been any larger than normal human beings.

It is from the events of Genesis 6:1-4 that the source of Greek and Roman mythologies was derived. These mythologies record how gods from Mount Olympus intermarried with human beings on earth and produced children who had super-human characteristics, and were greater than men but less than gods. Thus, the Book of Genesis details the true history of what happened, while Greek and Roman mythologies give the corrupted account. In Greek and Roman mythologies, the human perspective is given, and what happened is elevated to something special and glorified; but God called it sin.


(B) The Giborim: The Mighty Men
The second word to note in this verse is giborim, which is translated as the mighty men...the men of renown. Again, because this was a product of fallen angels and human woman, they were unique; they were the giborim. Notice that there is no mention of mighty woman, which would strange if this were a product of a normal union. After all, a normal union produces both males and females. If this were a natural union, then the product should have been mighty men and mighty women. But the result is only mighty men, because this is a new race of beings that is neither human nor angelic. The only way to explain the origin of the giborim is that they came from this union, which is the point of verse 4.

Only by the angelic explanation of Genesis 6 do other areas of biblical teaching make sense. It provides the only adequate explanation for certain statements in IIPeter and Jude, which will be studied next. It is a peculiar sin; it is connected to the Flood; and it is different from the original Fall of angels; otherwise, all fallen angels would be permanently confined.

b. IIPeter 2:4-5
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Verse 4 gives the location of the permanently confined demons. The temporarily confined demons are found in the abyss, but the permanently confined demons are elsewhere. The Greek word translated in this passage as hell is Tartarus. Tartarus is a section of Sheol or Hades where the permanently confined demons are located. Both the abyss and Tartarus are sections of Sheol or Hades. The abyss is for demons who are temporarily confined, but Tartarus is for demons who are permanently confined. Tartarus is referred to as pits of darkeness, and these angels are reserved [there] unto judgment. This will be the Great White Throne Judgment, the final judgment. This means that at no time will these angels ever be released. When the time comes, they will go directly from Tartarus to stand before the Great White Throne Judgment, and then be cast into the Lake of Fire. There will never be a time when they will be free to roam; they are permanently confined.

Verse 5 reveals the timing of their confinement, which was in conjunction with the Flood. This agrees well with the events of Genesis 6:1-4, which are events that are also connected with the Flood. The purpose of the Flood was to destroy this product of fallen angels and human woman.

By comparing the IIPeter passage with the Genesis passage, there is good evidence to show that Genesis is not speaking about Sethites intermarrying with Cainites, but fallen angels intermarrying with human women. This is a valid conclusion just from a study of the Old Testament passages themselves. However, the New Testament also supports this particular interpretation.


c. Jude 6-7
And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Verse 6 emphasized the fall of a select group of angels and described their fall in four statements.
First: they kept not their own principality. The word principality is frequently used of the angelic realm and is one of the various ranks within the angelic realm. It means that they did not remain in their position and place of rank within the satanic cosmos.
Secondly: they left their proper habitation. They left the demonic-angelic sphere of operation and entered into the human sphere by taking on the form of young men and intermarrying with human woman.
Thirdly: they are now kept in everlasting bonds under darkness. Here, Jude mentioned the same thing as Peter; that these angels are now permanently confined. Peter also revealed the place of their confinement: Tartarus.
Fourthly: they are kept there until the judgment of the great day. Again Jude reaffirms Peter's statements that they are kept in bondage until the judgment of the great day. This also is the Great White Throne Judgment. Once again, it is reaffirmed that these demons will never be free to roam around but are permanently confined in Tartarus. When the time comes, they will be taken out of Tartarus to stand before the Great White Throne Judgment, and then be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Verse 7 deals with the nature of their sin. The phrase is: in like manner. In like manner, as Sodom and Gomorrah, they went after strange flesh. The sin that these angels committed is similar to the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah, the S@xual sin of going after strange flesh. Strange flesh means S@xual union that is unnatural or contrary to nature. In the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, the strange flesh was H*m*s*xuality. In the case of these angels, the strange flesh was female flesh. Instead of remaining in their usual state of residence, they invaded a new state of residence of alien flesh to commit gross S@xual immorality. So Sodom and Gomorrah and these angels have one thing in common; they are guilty of S@xual sins. In the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, it was H*m*s*xuality; in the case of these angels, it was intermarrying into the human sphere.

By comparing the Genesis passage with the passages in IIPeter and Jude, it is clear that these were angels who intermarried with human woman, and not simply Sethites who intermarried with Cainites.

d. Summary
To summarize the origin of demons: all demons have the same initial origin in that they fell with Satan. However, sometime after that fall, some of Satan's fallen angels married human woman for the purpose of trying to corrupt the Seed of the woman in order to thwart the first messianic prophecy of Genesis 3:15. These particular angels are now permanently confined in Tartarus. The others are free, but periodically many of them are temporarily confind in the abyss before eventually being released to roam free again. The difference is between receiving a temporary sentence in jail as over against a life sentence. Eventually, of course, all demons will be eternally confined to the Lake of Fire following the Great White Throne Judgment.

Reference(s): Transcript MBS-082 http://www.ariel.org/ffruit.htm#top- Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum,

Transcript mbs-073 http://www.ariel.org/ffruit.htm#top


GB, great post!

a lot of information I was looking for

thanks

If you want more G2rad then go here http://www.shepherdschapel.com/index.htm and dopwnload the daily teaching. There in the last half hour you may here Arnold talk about this if someone writes in. The last half hour is Arnold answering various questions. A lot of well documented info is brought forth. 50 years of Arnold preaching and going around the world to varify the Bible, scientific as well.

[StackerKen]

There were no half breed babies born to angels and humans.

John 3:6 - That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Saul I hope my 1st post to you didn't sound wrong.

What I meant to convey was ....


Whenever I see your posts,
I am interested to see what you have to say on a subject.
I respect you, and your options.

[Saul Mine]

There were no half breed babies born to angels and humans.

John 3:6 - That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Ok John 3:6 is taken out of context out of complete ignorance of operation of the english language.
Saul Mine go back to John and try and figure out what the subject is in John. There are to many idiots on this board that cannot differentiate the subject from the object or the object from the subject and spurt out other passages that have no bearing on passages in question.
Saul in John whats the subject? (This isnt hard Saul. Its third grade grammar for Christ sake.)
In other words for the ignorant in this thread is John speaking about angels and humans having offspring as in Genesis:6 or not for John 3:6 to have any bearing in Genesis:6?


You people are gonna get so fooled into worshipping the devil its not even funny..................its very very sad!
But then again stupid does what stupid is.

I'm just about to that point where it isnt even worth my time to talk to idiots who repeatedly listen to idiots and speak idiocy.
I fully understand why God will give strong dillusion to those willing to listen to idiots rather than to God.



You can't expect much of a response when you start your act by insulting your audience.

[Saul Mine]

There were no half breed babies born to angels and humans.

John 3:6 - That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Saul I hope my 1st post to you didn't sound wrong.

What I meant to convey was ....


Whenever I see your posts,
I am interested to see what you have to say on a subject.
I respect you, and your options.


No, don't close the thread. We haven't seen all the opinions yet.

[StackerKen]

I did a little bit of looking on the web....and like Saul said, there are many opinions on this..
.Thats why I started this thread so maybe we could discuss the evidence.



Can you guys show me a place in the bible where a fallen angel appeared?
I mean can you show me where in the bible a fallen angel had a physical body?

Im pretty sure that angels are spirit beings.....and have no bodies...thus no reproductive organs

Sure you might say that demon have possessed human bodies...but those where human bodies..

God is able to give his angels the form of humans when he see's the need.

To convey messages...and what not.

I don't think he would do that for the fallen ones

[StackerKen]

You can't expect much of a response when you start your act by insulting your audience.



Saul is a wise man :)

[7th trump]

There were no half breed babies born to angels and humans.

John 3:6 - That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Ok John 3:6 is taken out of context out of complete ignorance of operation of the english language.
Saul Mine go back to John and try and figure out what the subject is in John. There are to many idiots on this board that cannot differentiate the subject from the object or the object from the subject and spurt out other passages that have no bearing on passages in question.
Saul in John whats the subject? (This isnt hard Saul. Its third grade grammar for Christ sake.)
In other words for the ignorant in this thread is John speaking about angels and humans having offspring as in Genesis:6 or not for John 3:6 to have any bearing in Genesis:6?


You people are gonna get so fooled into worshipping the devil its not even funny..................its very very sad!
But then again stupid does what stupid is.

I'm just about to that point where it isnt even worth my time to talk to idiots who repeatedly listen to idiots and speak idiocy.
I fully understand why God will give strong dillusion to those willing to listen to idiots rather than to God.



You can't expect much of a response when you start your act by insulting your audience.

I didnt start the act by insulting anybody. And "ignorance", if this is what you call insulting, is simply "not knowing", so dont get that confused with stupid.
While some think you are a wise man, I on the other hand question it. You totally made yourself incompetant by injecting the subject of John into the unrelated subject of Genesis 6:.
Embarrasment is a hard way to learn isnt it.
I bet you dont do that again........right?

[StackerKen]

7th I love ya bro.
I know that you are concerned about others spiritual well being.
I commend you for that. :)

[greenbear]

Hopefully we can keep this civil with no insults :-\

This is copy and paste
.................................................. ..................................

Genesis 6:1-4 refers to the sons of God and the daughters of men. There have been several suggestions as to who the sons of God were and why the children they had with daughters of men grew into a race of giants (that is what the word Nephilim seems to indicate).

The three primary views on the identity of the sons of God are 1) they were fallen angels, 2) they were powerful human rulers, or 3) they were godly descendants of Seth intermarrying with wicked descendants of Cain.
.................................................. ........
(this is me....)

One of my radio bible teachers I listen to says it #3


Could there be a 4th or 5th possible explanation?

I heard some here speak of "pre-adamites"(?) (never term heard that before)

Could the "daughters of men" be "pre-adamites"?



I'd have to go with #3 too; If angels did co-mingle with humans, I think you'd have to consider them evil and I don't think God would refer to them as "sons of God", also verse 4 does say there were giants in the Earth in those days, but it doesn't say they were the offspring of a relationship between humans and angels, it says "after that" is when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them....



I think you'd have to consider them evil and I don't think God would refer to them as "sons of God

Adam was a son of God (direct creation) and he fell. "Son of God" means direct creation, not the choice the direct creation made.


I'd have to go with #3 too

sons of God in the Old Testament ALWAYS refers to Angels (or the Angel of the Lord).

sons of God in the New Testament ALWAYS refers to born again believers.

Besides, even if Genesis 6 were the exception, and it referred to sethites, why would this produce giants as offspring, if they were just men. Seems like someone doesn't want to believe the Bible as it stands.


also verse 4 does say there were giants in the Earth in those days, but it doesn't say they were the offspring of a relationship between humans and angels, it says "after that" is when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them....


NO IT DOESN'T SAY JUST "AFTER THAT", IT SAYS "AND ALSO AFTER THAT".

Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

[willie pete]

Yea well we can agree to disagree, if you want to be wrong that's up to you :D, I read Gen. 6:4 " There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. "
it's like you pointed out, "And Also After That", After what? After the giants, That the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men....

[StackerKen]

I think if a person is of the opinion that they were "fallen angels"

That would make the serpent seed a real potability wouldn't it?


I don't believe that stuff....But that's just me

[StackerKen]

No one wants to address my questions i posted this morning ?


Can you guys show me a place in the bible where a fallen angel appeared?
I mean can you show me where in the bible a fallen angel had a physical body?

Im pretty sure that angels are spirit beings.....and have no bodies...thus no reproductive organs

Sure you might say that demon have possessed human bodies...but those where human bodies..

God is able to give his angels the form of humans when he see's the need.

To convey messages...and what not.

I don't think he would do that for the fallen ones

[greenbear]

There were no half breed babies born to angels and humans.

John 3:6 - That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


John 3:6 is talking about the necessity for a man's spirit to be reborn by the Holy Spirit as a prerequisite for entering into the Kingdom of God. This verse is not addressing whether or not fallen angels took human women as wives.

[willie pete]

"Can you guys show me a place in the bible where a fallen angel appeared?
I mean can you show me where in the bible a fallen angel had a physical body?

It's only my opinion, but I think satan entered judas that night in the upper room, at the Last Supper Our Lord had with His disciples, as for appearing, satan appeared to Our Lord in the wilderness trying to tempt Him

[greenbear]

I did a little bit of looking on the web....and like Saul said, there are many opinions on this..
.Thats why I started this thread so maybe we could discuss the evidence.



Can you guys show me a place in the bible where a fallen angel appeared?
I mean can you show me where in the bible a fallen angel had a physical body?

Im pretty sure that angels are spirit beings.....and have no bodies...thus no reproductive organs

Sure you might say that demon have possessed human bodies...but those where human bodies..

God is able to give his angels the form of humans when he see's the need.

To convey messages...and what not.

I don't think he would do that for the fallen ones



Can you guys show me a place in the bible where a fallen angel appeared?
I mean can you show me where in the bible a fallen angel had a physical body?

No, Ken. Can you show me where in the Bible the term "sons of God" is used for "righteous men"? Only Adam and angels are referred to as "sons of God" in the OT. Can you prove otherwise?


Im pretty sure that angels are spirit beings.....and have no bodies...thus no reproductive organs

What makes you "pretty sure" of that? This verse?

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

This verse says that angels do not marry. This verse doesn't say that angels are not male, with male physiology, just like it does not say that resurrected believers are not both male and female with male and female physiology. Edit: to clarify according to their original sex.


Sure you might say that demon have possessed human bodies...but those where human bodies..


We are not discussing demonic possession in this thread. We are discussing whether or not fallen angels mated with human women.


God is able to give his angels the form of humans when he see's the need.

To convey messages...and what not.

We know that heavenly angels can take on human form. Can you cite scripture that God has taken that ability away from fallen angels?


I don't think he would do that for the fallen ones

What scriptural basis do you have for that assumption?

[StackerKen]

"Can you guys show me a place in the bible where a fallen angel appeared?
I mean can you show me where in the bible a fallen angel had a physical body?

It's only my opinion, but I think satan entered judas that night in the upper room, at the Last Supper Our Lord had with His disciples, as for appearing, satan appeared to Our Lord in the wilderness trying to tempt Him


Yeah, there are places men were possessed by demons
and Judas may have been one of those.
But that's not the same as them havening they're own body


and Matthew 4 says "when the tempter came to him"
It doesn't say he " appeared"

[greenbear]

Yea well we can agree to disagree, if you want to be wrong that's up to you :D, I read Gen. 6:4 " There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. "
it's like you pointed out, "And Also After That", After what? After the giants, That the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men....



That's fine. There are good people on both sides of this debate. :) But where did the giants come from? If not the "sons of God, i.e. direct creation angels", then the scriptures are completely silent on the identity of the giants. There are other verses that may shed light.

Jude
1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

1 Peter
3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Interesting reference to Noah's day. Christ preached unto the spirits in prison who were disobedient in the days of Noah! Hmmm.

2 Peter
2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds; 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

[StackerKen]

also...I just thought of another thing...

In Job, Satan has to ask permission to "attack" Job.

and Satan had to ask God to be able to sift Peter like wheat.

I don't think Fallen angels go around doing what ever they want to.

[7th trump]

also...I just thought of another thing...

In Job, Satan has to ask permission to "attack" Job.

and Satan had to ask God to be able to sift Peter like wheat.

I don't think Fallen angels go around doing what ever they want to.

These angels left their habitation Ken. They came here, not born of the waters.
Job was well liked by God. God had his walls around Job. satan had to ask God to take the walls down so satan could see if he could take Job. God agreed and said to satan that he, satan, wouldnt be able to take Job.

[willie pete]

also...I just thought of another thing...

In Job, Satan has to ask permission to "attack" Job.

and Satan had to ask God to be able to sift Peter like wheat.

I don't think Fallen angels go around doing what ever they want to.


Personally I don't either, I think satan has them well organized into rank and file (general demons on down to pfc. demons :D) and that would mean, to me, that they get their marching orders from the serpent himself

As for the giants, that could mean animals, doesn't say they were men...

"1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

IMO, "strange flesh" in this instance means homosexuality

[greenbear]

I think if a person is of the opinion that they were "fallen angels"

That would make the serpent seed a real potability wouldn't it?


I don't believe that stuff....But that's just me


The serpent seed heresy is that Eve had sex with Satan and bore Cain as a result and the Jews are the product of that union. This is a completely different topic, Ken. The identity of the sons of God marrying the daughters of men is a topic that is actually based upon the literal interpretation of the scriptures, which ever side you fall out on. The occultic/ pagan wives tale about the majority of mankind being the literal seed of Satan from sexual union between Eve and Satan in the form of a serpent is hogwash.


Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

Adam knew Eve, i.e., had sexual intercourse with her, and as a result of that union she bore Cain. Only people who do not believe the Bible would say that Satan was Cain's father, because the Bible doesn't say that. The Bible says that Adam was the father of Cain. This serpent seed doctrine is from the Kabbala, which is perhaps the most occultic book in existence. The Kabbalistic Jews taught that gentiles were the result of a union between Eve and Satan. The Jew haters just stole this occultic doctrine and did a little switcheroo.

The identity of the sons of God in Gen 6 is a valid Biblical topic.

[StackerKen]

Good Discussion so far :)

[Quantum]

Adam knew Eve, i.e., had sexual intercourse with her, and as a result of that union she bore Cain. Only people who do not believe the Bible would say that Satan was Cain's father, because the Bible doesn't say that. The Bible says that Adam was the father of Cain. This serpent seed doctrine is from the Kabbala, which is perhaps the most occultic book in existence. The Kabbalistic Jews taught that gentiles were the result of a union between Eve and Satan. The Jew haters just stole this occultic doctrine and did a little switcheroo.


The "Jews as literal descendants of the Devil" is held by only a part of CI/Adamic Christian believers.

Cain was obviously Adam's son. However, who Cain mated with is legitimately up for debate.

It's funny how you rail against "Jew haters," since Jesus Christ is the greatest "Jew hater" of all time. Anyone who practices "Judaism" is a figurative descendant of the Devil, as Christ said at John 8:44. Yet you worship these "Jews" who practice Babylonian Talmudic "Judaism." Why?

[LuckyStrike]

also...I just thought of another thing...

In Job, Satan has to ask permission to "attack" Job.

and Satan had to ask God to be able to sift Peter like wheat.

I don't think Fallen angels go around doing what ever they want to.


You bring up a valid point, although I would argue (or at least raise the question) that how do we know satans minions don't ask Yahweh's permission to do things daily? We certainly are not privvy to such information.

Yahweh is sovereign and as I think we all can agree, nothing goes on without his permission.

[StackerKen]

also...I just thought of another thing...

In Job, Satan has to ask permission to "attack" Job.

and Satan had to ask God to be able to sift Peter like wheat.

I don't think Fallen angels go around doing what ever they want to.


You bring up a valid point, although I would argue (or at least raise the question) that how do we know satans minions don't ask Yahweh's permission to do things daily? We certainly are not privvy to such information.

Yahweh is sovereign and as I think we all can agree, nothing goes on without his permission.


Exactly...I agree 100%

Now the question is....Would God allow these fallen angels to make babies with the daughters of Men?

God would have to make Bodies for these fallen angels also.

[greenbear]

also...I just thought of another thing...

In Job, Satan has to ask permission to "attack" Job.

and Satan had to ask God to be able to sift Peter like wheat.

I don't think Fallen angels go around doing what ever they want to.


You bring up a valid point, although I would argue (or at least raise the question) that how do we know satans minions don't ask Yahweh's permission to do things daily? We certainly are not privvy to such information.

Yahweh is sovereign and as I think we all can agree, nothing goes on without his permission.


Exactly...I agree 100%

Now the question is....Would God allow these fallen angels to make babies with the daughters of Men?

God would have to make Bodies for these fallen angels also.




Ken, angels who had not rebelled could appear in human form, as men. The scriptures don't say that God had to create a body for them in order to appear as men. Also, there is no scriptural basis to say that God took that ability away from the angels that fell.

[greenbear]

also...I just thought of another thing...

In Job, Satan has to ask permission to "attack" Job.

and Satan had to ask God to be able to sift Peter like wheat.

I don't think Fallen angels go around doing what ever they want to.


God doesn't specifically tell us why he didn't stop the son's of God (whoever they may be) from taking the daughters of men as wives.

I don't see how it is possible for the son's of God to be Sethites.

1) There is no such thing as a godly line of anyone. Jesus genealogy was not godly - it included murderers, adulterers and harlots.

2) A "saved", "righteous" or "godly" person does not have gigantic children, anywhere in scripture. The opposite is true. Goliath, had four brothers and all of them were his sons. He committed incest with his mother. Not a godly act.

3) If Seth is so godly, why did he do this thing, and why is everyone judged for it?


This is a principle of how God 's protection works on man's behalf:

God has a hedge of protection around man.


Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

Ecclesiastes 10:8 He that diggeth a pit shall fall into it; and whoso breaketh an hedge, a serpent shall bite him.

Isaiah 5:4-6 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.

God gave strict warning to Israel about breaking the hedge of protection by engaging the spirit world witchcraft, idol worship, astrology, wizardry, necromancy, conjuring up spirits, etc. It may be that the people at that time were engaging in these things and broke this hedge of protection against the spirit world, giving the fallen angels the legal right, or opportunity to mate with women.

As far as I know, the Bible doesn't explicitly say why this was allowed, but we know the character of God so we can know that whatever it was that they did, it was pretty bad..

[StackerKen]

also...I just thought of another thing...

In Job, Satan has to ask permission to "attack" Job.

and Satan had to ask God to be able to sift Peter like wheat.

I don't think Fallen angels go around doing what ever they want to.


You bring up a valid point, although I would argue (or at least raise the question) that how do we know satans minions don't ask Yahweh's permission to do things daily? We certainly are not privvy to such information.

Yahweh is sovereign and as I think we all can agree, nothing goes on without his permission.


Exactly...I agree 100%

Now the question is....Would God allow these fallen angels to make babies with the daughters of Men?

God would have to make Bodies for these fallen angels also.




Ken, angels who had not rebelled could appear in human form, as men. The scriptures don't say that God had to create a body for them in order to appear as men. Also, there is no scriptural basis to say that God took that ability away from the angels that fell.




GB Obviously i know from reading the bible that angels who had not rebelled could appear in human form, as men" Doing God's work

Im sure you know, that the angels that appeared as men where always God's messengers


I just don't see any scriptural basis to say the satan or his demons ever had bodies

[greenbear]

also...I just thought of another thing...

In Job, Satan has to ask permission to "attack" Job.

and Satan had to ask God to be able to sift Peter like wheat.

I don't think Fallen angels go around doing what ever they want to.


You bring up a valid point, although I would argue (or at least raise the question) that how do we know satans minions don't ask Yahweh's permission to do things daily? We certainly are not privvy to such information.

Yahweh is sovereign and as I think we all can agree, nothing goes on without his permission.


Exactly...I agree 100%

Now the question is....Would God allow these fallen angels to make babies with the daughters of Men?

God would have to make Bodies for these fallen angels also.




Ken, angels who had not rebelled could appear in human form, as men. The scriptures don't say that God had to create a body for them in order to appear as men. Also, there is no scriptural basis to say that God took that ability away from the angels that fell.




GB Obviously i know from reading the bible that angels who had not rebelled could appear in human form, as men" Doing God's work

Im sure you know, that the angels that appeared as men where always God's messengers


I just don't see any scriptural basis to say the satan or his demons ever had bodies


Of course, I know you are aware that heavenly angels have appeared as men.

You are trying to make an argument against the sons of God of Gen 6 referring to fallen angels from an assumption that fallen angels do not have the same ability to appear in human form as heavenly (non-fallen) angels. As you say, the scriptures do not explicitly state whether they can or cannot. Angels, fallen or unfallen, are the same creation, the Bene Elohim. It would be more logical to assume they can, sans scriptural reference, than to assume that they cannot, since they are of the same order of creation.

The fact remains that the term Bene Elohim (sons of God) always refers only to angels and Adam in the OT, who are both direct creations of God. Is Gen 6 the exception? Seth and his descendants are not direct creations of God, they were born of woman.

If you are unconvinced, that's OK by me. :) I've given my opinion, as requested. It's definitely not something I want to argue over, it's just not that important.

[StackerKen]

:) Your right Greenbear it is not important. It is just something I have always be curios about.

I have always been interested and respected your perspectives and opinion.

Thanks for sharing them on this subject :)

[greenbear]

Ken, I would say that the cogent arguments are in Fruchtenbaum's article as nicely as I've ever seen them put forth. This sparse information has been revealed to us, I do not believe that it was revealed only to lead a dead end. If one interprets scripture with scripture, I don't believe one can get around the realization that fallen angels mated with human woman in Gen 6, and after that. God used the nation of Israel to wipe out the remainder of the giants on the earth. I also believe that the same thing is happening today, though it may be by a different method in modern times. And it will occur until God stops it the second (or third) time.

[StackerKen]

"Third time's a charm" they say

I wonder why they say that?

[greenbear]

As far as I know, the Lord Jesus Christ is the only one for whom God has "prepared a body". Adam, who's body was made from the dust of the earth, and God breathed life into him, did not preexist before that creative act of God. Humans, after Adam and Eve are conceived and become body, soul, and spirit. They do not exist prior to the creation of the body (Ps 139:13-16). Since they are not preexistent, a body cannot be "prepared" for them, because they do not exist before the body is formed.

I don't believe that bodies were "prepared" for angels to appear in human form. I don't see how that can be supported from the scriptures. Though angels existed before mankind, all we know is that heavenly angels are recorded as being able to appear to men in human form. This doesn't necessarily mean that God "prepares" bodies for them. Angels are not men. A "body was prepared" for the Son of God because God actually became a Man.

[7th trump]

As far as I know, the Lord Jesus Christ is the only one for whom God has "prepared a body". Adam, who's body was made from the dust of the earth, and God breathed life into him, did not preexist before that creative act of God. Humans, after Adam and Eve are conceived and become body, soul, and spirit. They do not exist prior to the creation of the body (Ps 139:13-16). Since they are not preexistent, a body cannot be "prepared" for them, because they do not exist before the body is formed.

I don't believe that bodies were "prepared" for angels to appear in human form. I don't see how that can be supported from the scriptures. Though angels existed before mankind, all we know is that heavenly angels are recorded as being able to appear to men in human form. This doesn't necessarily mean that God "prepares" bodies for them. Angels are not men. A "body was prepared" for the Son of God because God actually became a Man.

Green would you care to explain Ps 139:13-16?
Theres nothing in those passages that suggests we did not exist prior the creation of the flesh body.

[greenbear]

As far as I know, the Lord Jesus Christ is the only one for whom God has "prepared a body". Adam, who's body was made from the dust of the earth, and God breathed life into him, did not preexist before that creative act of God. Humans, after Adam and Eve are conceived and become body, soul, and spirit. They do not exist prior to the creation of the body (Ps 139:13-16). Since they are not preexistent, a body cannot be "prepared" for them, because they do not exist before the body is formed.

I don't believe that bodies were "prepared" for angels to appear in human form. I don't see how that can be supported from the scriptures. Though angels existed before mankind, all we know is that heavenly angels are recorded as being able to appear to men in human form. This doesn't necessarily mean that God "prepares" bodies for them. Angels are not men. A "body was prepared" for the Son of God because God actually became a Man.

Green would you care to explain Ps 139:13-16?
Theres nothing in those passages that suggests we did not exist prior the creation of the flesh body.


I believe the term "lowest parts of the earth" is a metaphor for the womb. David says that God saw his "substance" (something which exists, which applies to material and spiritual being) when he was made in secret, i.e., no one can see a child forming in the womb. David's substance was not hid from God when he was made in secret. Notice that David was made in the lower parts of the earth. No part of his substance can be said to have been formed anyplace other than earth. This also ties the creation of the soul and spirit with that of the body.

Psalms 139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.


The spirit of man is formed within him, that is within his body.

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.


God gives breath and spirit to people who are on the earth. This is the opposite of giving a body to a preexistent spirit.

Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:


Jesus said that we are from beneath. This means we have never dwelt in heavenly places in times past, we were formed on the earth. We did not preexist as spirit beings dwelling in heaven in our spirit bodies. Christ is the only Man who preexisted, and that was from everlasting. Christ is the only Man that came down from Heaven.

John 8:23: “And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.


There is nothing in scripture that teaches preexistence of the human spirit. The idea of the preexistence of the human spirit before conception is a Mormon doctrine.

[StackerKen]

I believe the term "lowest parts of the earth" is a metaphor for the womb. David says that God saw his "substance" (something which exists, which applies to material and spiritual being) when he was made in secret, i.e., no one can see a child forming in the womb. David's substance was not hid from God when he was made in secret. Notice that David was made in the lower parts of the earth. No part of his substance can be said to have been formed anyplace other than earth. This also ties the creation of the soul and spirit with that of the body.

Psalms 139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.


The spirit of man is formed within him, that is within his body.

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.


God gives breath and spirit to people who are on the earth. This is the opposite of giving a body to a preexistent spirit.

Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:


Jesus said that we are from beneath. This means we have never dwelt in heavenly places in times past, we were formed on the earth. We did not preexist as spirit beings dwelling in heaven in our spirit bodies. Christ is the only Man who preexisted, and that was from everlasting. Christ is the only Man that came down from Heaven.

John 8:23: “And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

There is nothing in scripture that teaches preexistence of the human spirit. The idea of the preexistence of the human spirit before conception is a Mormon doctrine.



+100


7th; You gotta admit that is a strong argument there^^^

Especially John 8:23

[greenbear]

Thanks, Ken. I almost missed John 8:23, and it is the most straightforward verse. I think there may be another verse about Jesus being from above but I can't think of it right now. :)

[Ash_Williams]

Throwing my view in there while admittedly skipping over most of the this thread because of the bickering...

The giants aren't limited to the bible. Look at other sources. Nonhumans (I don't want to call them gods or angels because some people associate those with non-physical things) bred with regular women under many different beliefs. Often giants were produced. Some Nonhumans didn't like these giants and/or found humans wicked or noisy and flooded the earth to be rid of them.

The bible mentions the giants in reference to Noah's flood as well, but I guess they didn't like that in the story so they tossed it into the apocrypha. Quran mentions the giants. Greek, sumerian, etc. mention the giants. The bible and quran just take every one of many gods from those other versions and compress him into one.

Gods were different to these people as they were physical beings that interacted with humans and were powerful but were limited. That's why in those stories if they didn't like giants they couldn't just go poof and snap their fingers and be rid of giants... they actually had to work out a way to kill them. All things had to be done in the physical world (ie the god that warned the ark-builder had to have him build a boat, not just snap his fingers and poof a boat into a nearby lake or snap his fingers and push the ark-builder and some animals forward in time to when things had dried.) Everything in the older texts makes a lot more sense when you think of the gods as physical beings with some power/technology instead of all-powerful all-knowing spiritual-only things.

[7th trump]

As far as I know, the Lord Jesus Christ is the only one for whom God has "prepared a body". Adam, who's body was made from the dust of the earth, and God breathed life into him, did not preexist before that creative act of God. Humans, after Adam and Eve are conceived and become body, soul, and spirit. They do not exist prior to the creation of the body (Ps 139:13-16). Since they are not preexistent, a body cannot be "prepared" for them, because they do not exist before the body is formed.

I don't believe that bodies were "prepared" for angels to appear in human form. I don't see how that can be supported from the scriptures. Though angels existed before mankind, all we know is that heavenly angels are recorded as being able to appear to men in human form. This doesn't necessarily mean that God "prepares" bodies for them. Angels are not men. A "body was prepared" for the Son of God because God actually became a Man.

Green would you care to explain Ps 139:13-16?
Theres nothing in those passages that suggests we did not exist prior the creation of the flesh body.


I believe the term "lowest parts of the earth" is a metaphor for the womb. (there you go right off the bat green. talk about starting the arguement with a beleif......its not fact is it green? No it is not. Thats you injecting a "beleif" from a doubt and passing it on as gospel. Confirm or document what the lowest parts of the earth is before injecting a lie green.) David says that God saw his "substance" (why wouldnt God see it........he made it.)(something which exists, which applies to material and spiritual being (this "spiritual being" which I've bolded is you adding to the Word of God green. God doesnt like you adding a lie into His mouth green. Did you not read the warning in the Bible where God says he'll taketh away for adding to the Word? injecting spirit into the passage where it doesnt exist is a trait of your green. Where do you see "spirit" in this passage green? Do I have to say it over again that you are injecting a lie?) when he was made in secret, i.e., no one can see a child forming in the womb (John the Baptist, in the womb of his mother, felt the spirit of Jesus and leaped the day Mary was told was with child). David's substance was not hid from God when he was made in secret (no kidding, Adam and Eve were formed of the same earth so why wouldnt God be blind of it?). Notice that David was made in the lower parts of the earth( you got to love it green.................yea I've notivce you beleive in your own undocumented and unprovable theory). No part of his substance can be said to have been formed anyplace other than earth (Hey green...............did you notice that it doesnt say anyplace other than earth but of earth? Did you forget already about Adam and Eve were also wrought in the lowest parts of the earth? God calls the flesh a "clay pot". Guess where you find clay? You dig it up below the top soil IE: :lowest parts of the earth" as in being formed in earth (dust) and not on earth.) This also ties the creation of the soul and spirit with that of the body. (Come on green, enough of the lies already. Can you document that this ties the soul and spirit with that of the body becuase you are looking like a liar to me making it up as you go?)

Psalms 139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.


The spirit of man is formed within him, that is within his body.

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth ("foundations of the earth" is the first earth age (the old earth that God destroyed) before satan revolt against God), and formeth the spirit of man within him.
(this is just saying that the spirit is inside the flesh body thats all)

God gives breath and spirit to people who are on the earth. ( this is just confirming the flesh is created out of earth and the spirit dwellith in it. Doesnt say anything to confirm your delusion green.) This is the opposite of giving a body to a preexistent spirit.

Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:(again this just confirms God made the flesh body (clat pot) that holds the spirit. The clay pot eventually breaks (dies). Where does the spirit go green?
Why would God create a body just to die? That doesnt sound too perfect does it? Unless the flesh is temporary for a reason)


Jesus said that we are from beneath. This means we have never dwelt in heavenly places in times past (more lies that you cannot document or prove), we were formed on the earth ( the flesh body (clay pot) is formed of the earth, not the spirit green. nowhere will you find the spirit is of earth. no where!). We did not preexist as spirit beings dwelling in heaven in our spirit bodies. Christ is the only Man who preexisted, and that was from everlasting. Christ is the only Man that came down from Heaven.

John 8:23: “And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. ( oh........looky looky......green is being a hippicrit again. Green didnt you scold someone for taking a passage out of context? Yep you sure did......So why dont you go back to John 8:23 and figure out the subject so you can get the object in perspective because John 8:23 is talking about something totaly different than Psalms 139:15. (Psalms 139:15 is just saying that Jesus is the Son of God ( God in the flesh. Emanuel: God with us.) which is above everyone else. Gee wiss green a 12 year old can read and comprehend this passage.)

There is nothing in scripture that teaches preexistence of the human spirit. The idea of the preexistence of the human spirit before conception is a Mormon doctrine.

[7th trump]

Thanks, Ken. I almost missed John 8:23, and it is the most straightforward verse. I think there may be another verse about Jesus being from above but I can't think of it right now. :)

straight forward?....... :D, but yet you cannot stop injecting and adding in lies. Its straight forward so why mess with it?