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MNeagle
10th May 2010, 05:59 PM
It costs the federal government up to nine cents to mint a nickel and almost two cents to make a penny. So, in addition to overhauling Big Finance, President Barack Obama wants to tinker with America's small change.

The president's plan to save money by making coins from cheaper stuff seems simple on its face. But history shows it would rekindle an emotional debate among Americans who fear changing the composition of their currency will hurt its value.

On top of that, trade groups from the coin-laundry owners to the Zinc Association have lobbied for years to keep small change just the way it is.

Like many things produced in Washington, U.S. coins aren't what they seem. A penny is a copper-coated token made mostly of zinc. The nickel contains more copper than it does actual nickel. And no coin contains silver anymore.

Market forces, not metal prices, determine the value of American currency. Yet Americans persist, on websites like coinflation.com, in tracking the value of the metal in their currency.

"People believe that we are still on some sort of precious-metal standard," says Rod Gillis, educator at the American Numismatic Association.

As the White House looks to cut costs across government, "making coins from more cost-effective materials could save more than $100 million a year, which isn't just pocket change," says Dan Tangherlini, the Treasury Department's chief financial officer.

News Hub: Why it Costs Two Cents to Make a Penny
1:30
President Barack Obama wants to tinker with America's small change to save money and plans on making coins from cheaper materials. Although it seems like a simple idea on its face, history shows it would rekindle an emotional debate among Americans who fear changing the composition of their currency will hurt its value.
.The government isn't saying which new materials it might use in coins. Most coin experts say creating non-metal coins would go over like a wooden nickel. Still, industrial porcelain, embedded with an identification chip, is seen as an outside possibility. A more likely candidate: an aluminum alloy, used by other countries for coins. But any switch is likely to be controversial.

Already, Mr. Gillis spends a chunk of his day at the coin-collectors association taking calls from Americans worried that the Obama administration will confiscate their gold coins to prop up the economy.

He often asks people what gives a paper dollar its value. "Eight in 10 people make some sort of reference to the gold in Fort Knox," he says. But America has been off the gold standard since 1971, and gold currency stopped circulating in 1933.

No other stable nation has changed the metal content of its coinage less frequently. World War II shortages compelled the creation of a steel penny in 1943. The mint returned to copper after a year, even though that required smelting spent shell casings. The nickel's composition has gone unchanged since Thomas Jefferson's likeness was put on the coin in 1938, again with the exception of World War II, when for a brief period silver was added, because nickel was needed for weapons production.

In 1974, with copper prices soaring, President Richard Nixon suggested making the penny from lighter, cheaper aluminum. Machine vendors and most of the public were horrified. The plan fizzled when Mr. Nixon resigned that year.

In 1981, the Reagan administration proposed making the penny from zinc. The Copper and Brass Fabricators' Council sued, saying the plan would shackle the U.S. government to the whims of capricious foreign zinc miners. (Much of the zinc used in the U.S. comes from Canada.) It took the government two years to fully introduce the copper-plated, one-cent zinc piece.

So far, about 10 special interest groups say they're monitoring Mr. Obama's coinage proposal. "This needs more concerted action than the mint saying, 'Let's make it cheap,"' says Ute Wartenberg Kagan, executive director of the American Numismatic Society in New York.

A native of Germany, Ms. Kagan recalled Communist-era subway tokens and money made from plastic or from metals that rust. "Toy money," she says. "Is it worthy of a country like the U.S. to have coins of this nature?"

Laundromats and makers of vending machines and coin-counting machines are poised to weigh in, too. Their machines recognize the size, weight and alloy content of current U.S. coins, so any change could force costly retoolings or replacements.

"We're all taxpayers, and we're all in favor of being able to mint coins at a more reasonable cost," says Brian Wallace, president of the Coin Laundry Association. "But we want to make sure there aren't unintended consequences that could deeply impact the small-business owner during a recession."

Some groups say they fear cheaper coins could lead to a wave of counterfeiting. Convicted forger Frank Abagnale pooh-poohs that idea. "People would be more apt to counterfeit casino chips than American coins," says Mr. Abagnale, who advises governments and companies on how to avoid fraud and forgery. "I'm one of these people who would be in favor of doing away with the penny. I'm always in airports, and people just leave them all over the place."

Talk like that worries Americans for Common Cents, a group that has for years lobbied on behalf of the penny. "The penny is a hedge to inflation," says Mark Weller, executive director of the group, which is funded in part by the zinc industry. Without it, he argues, merchants would round up to the nearest nickel.

In 2006, when surging metal prices prompted Congress to consider eliminating the penny, the group released a study under the title, "Lincoln Penny Still America's Sweetheart Even Though It Doesn't Make Cents."

A least one group would support a sweeping change in the nation's coinage. Nickel, the most expensive and commonly used metal at the mint, is also the most allergy-producing metal in the world. According to the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma & Immunology, people allergic to nickel who have sustained contact with the metal—used in nickels, quarters and dimes—develop an itchy, poison-ivy-type reaction that can last up to a month.

"My husband always has these weird rashes on his leg from the change in his pocket," a treasury official involved in the coinage plans says. "Maybe he would benefit from a plastic quarter."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704866204575224431682671088.html

Ponce
10th May 2010, 06:11 PM
Ponce <-------ahead of the pack........as usual......... :oo-->

AndreaGail
10th May 2010, 06:19 PM
But history shows it would rekindle an emotional debate among Americans who fear changing the composition of their currency will hurt its value

http://www.mtdsalestraining.com/mtdblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/slob.jpg

i'm sure j6p is really going to lose sleep over the fact that he doesn't receive some curponickel slugs in his change from dominoes pizza and instead receives steel ones.
:oo-->

i can see a clad vs pm debate, but, on the surface, a clad vs clad debate won't really affect the "perceived" value of our currency

Ponce
10th May 2010, 08:28 PM
Gail? sorry buddy but that's the cavemen's way to look at it........you are still comparing yesterday to today and not to tomorrow......the tomorrow games will be played in a completely new stadium with new rules.

Johndoe
10th May 2010, 09:02 PM
I agree, Ponce
I just put $3G in Nickels
Downside=Face
Upside...Who Knows

AndreaGail
10th May 2010, 09:14 PM
Gail? sorry buddy but that's the cavemen's way to look at it........you are still comparing yesterday to today and not to tomorrow......the tomorrow games will be played in a completely new stadium with new rules.


oh don't get me wrong ponce i have some nickels and pre82 lincolns saved up...i was just merely commenting on the fact that i don't think the perceived value of our $$$ can't get much lower to stir up a debate as it has been debased so much already

:)

Ponce
10th May 2010, 09:25 PM
There you go again ;D is NOT the value of the coin but rather what you will be able to get with those coins..........I seen it in Cuba where they would not take the peso but instead would take the coins.........and for a lot less coins that they would with the peso.

Johndoe
10th May 2010, 09:29 PM
Greshams Law
We've seen it before, right?

Check Coinflation.com

Ponce
10th May 2010, 10:00 PM
Is more than that, is the value perceived by the people........for example, take a diamond, you can do a lot more with a brick of nickels that you can with a diamond but many people don't really know how to give the right value to something so that to them a diamond is more valuable and because the incoming situation in this country those who trade anything for a diamond will be stuck with it for a long time.....maybe they can trade it right away for something else.

Please don't take anything that I say at face value because what I say it comes from I don't know where........but I am usually right.

Sparky
10th May 2010, 10:27 PM
Thought exercise:

Would the elimination of nickels significantly reduce the world demand for copper and nickel? In other words, how much of these materials is used in minting compared to the world annual production? Would it be significant enough to greatly reduce the price of these metals?

What if existing circulating nickels and copper pennies were liquidated? Would that flood the market with copper and nickel?

Answer forthcoming...

Ponce
10th May 2010, 10:44 PM
Cuba would suffer a lot because is one of the few countries in the world that produces nickel.......but I believe, not sure, that we now have a contract with China for all the nickel that we can produce.

Book
10th May 2010, 10:44 PM
http://alum.mit.edu/sliceofmit/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/2009_04_13-tiddlywinks.jpg

NWO coins.

Sparky
10th May 2010, 11:04 PM
OK, here are the ballpark figures. (Everything here is back-of-the-envelope):

Annual copper production: 16,000,000 tonnes
Annual nickel production: 1,500,000 tonnes

Annual copper used to make nickels: 3,750 tonnes (0.02% of annual production)
Annual nickel used to make nickels: 1,250 tonnes (0.08% of annual production)

So a tiny fraction of annual world supply is used to make these coins.

Now for liquidation:

Amount of copper in circulating nickels and older pennies: 160,000 tonnes (1%)
Amount of nickel in circulating nickels: 37,500 tonnes (2.5%)

A small fraction, but not negligible.

Let's look as silver coin history by year, with annual silver price per ounce:

1960 $0.91
1961 $0.90
1962 $1.20 (Potential silver shortage recognized?)
1963 $1.29 (Proposal to change composition?)
1964 $1.29 [Last year of silver in most coins]
1965 $1.29
1966 $1.29
1967 $2.06 [Ban on melting silver coins implemented]
1968 $1.96
1969 $1.81 [Melting ban lifted]
1970 $1.64
1971 $1.39 [International gold standard ends]
1972 $1.98
1973 $3.14
1974 $4.39

Notice that the melt ban wasn't implemented until two years after the composition change. It's not clear if the 1967 price spike caused the need for banning, or if the banning caused the price spike. The lifting of the melt ban actually led into a period of lowering prices.

For pennies and nickels, the ban began in December 2006.

What I don't know is if coin production was a large demand component in the silver market, such that the lifting of the ban created a significant wave of supply.