PDA

View Full Version : Bible Question



LuckyStrike
13th May 2010, 06:39 PM
I often here two things repeated when engaging in conversation with a judeo "Christian" and I hope one of you can clear this up for me.

What is the Scriptural basis for the following statements.

God loves everybody.

and

God loves the sinner and hates the sin.

Saul Mine
13th May 2010, 07:46 PM
The problem there is the word love. Nobody knows what it means. Oh, I know everybody loves to make up something when asked, but in fact they don't know what it means.

First, let's cut short the multiple definitions: love means a lot of things. I'm only talking about Godly love. Love is when you are aware of a need and you take care of it. Two things: awareness and caring.

Now what is a need? A baby needs air, water, food, clean clothes, and personal attention. If baby doesn't get all five of those baby will die, or grow into a very weird person. Needs of an adult are a little harder to categorize, but God is smart and He can keep track of such things. God formed our bodies out of dust and commanded the dust to bring forth grass. Guess what? You can live a long time by eating grass. You want more variety? There is plenty of variety and it grows where people tend to walk, not deep in some forest. God set it up that way because He knew we needed food.

I'll leave you to think up more examples of how God set up the world to take care of human needs.

LuckyStrike
13th May 2010, 07:53 PM
So am I correct in assuming SM that you have no Scriptural evidence to support the aforementioned statements?

StackerKen
13th May 2010, 08:00 PM
Matthew 5:43-48

43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.



John 3:16
16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Romans 5:8
8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.


2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Romans 5:8 (NIV)
8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

John 3:36 (NIV)
36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”

LuckyStrike
13th May 2010, 08:09 PM
Really? I have to narrow the focus?

I didn't think the question was broad by any stretch of the imagination.

Jazkal
14th May 2010, 09:43 PM
I often here two things repeated when engaging in conversation with a judeo "Christian" and I

hope one of you can clear this up for me.

What is the Scriptural basis for the following statements.

God loves everybody.

and

God loves the sinner and hates the sin.


(Mal 1:3 [MKJV])
and I hated Esau and made his mountains a desolation, and his inheritance to be for the jackals of the wilderness.

(Rom 9:13 [MKJV])
As it is written, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

܀(Prov 6:16-19 [MKJV])
These six Jehovah hates; yea, seven are hateful to his soul: a proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that plots wicked plans, feet hurrying to run to evil, a false witness who speaks lies, and he who causes fighting among brothers.

(Ps 11:5 [MKJV])
Jehovah tries the righteous; but His soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence,

(Ps 5:5 [MKJV])
The foolish shall not stand in Your sight. You hate all doers of iniquity.

(Deut 32:19 [MKJV])
And Jehovah saw, and despised them because of the provoking of His sons and of His daughters.

(Lev 26:30 [MKJV])
And I will destroy your high places and cut down your images, and throw your carcasses on the carcasses of your idols, and My soul shall despise you.

(Lev 20:23 [MKJV])
And you shall not walk in the ways of the nation which I cast out before you. For they committed all these things, and therefore I loathed them.

(Hos 9:15 [MKJV])
All their wickedness is in Gilgal, for there I hated them. I will drive them out of My house for the wickedness of their doings. I will love them no more; all their rulers are revolters.

(Ps 5:4-5 [MKJV])
For You are not a God that enjoys wickedness; nor shall evil dwell with You. The foolish shall not stand in Your sight. You hate all doers of iniquity.

(Ps 45:7 [MKJV])
You love righteousness, and hate wickedness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your fellows.

(Heb 1:8-9 [MKJV])
But to the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated iniquity, therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your fellows."

(Rev 2:6-7 [MKJV])
But you have this, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

StackerKen
14th May 2010, 10:24 PM
Jesus said

"If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. Luke 14:26


Do you really think Jesus wanted us to hate our father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters?

Get a clue


It is clear that were are not to hate anyone.

Get this into your head

Jesus said
Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.
1John 3:15


Wise up

LuckyStrike
14th May 2010, 10:29 PM
Jesus said
Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.
1John 3:15


Wise up


Key word there of course being brother.

StackerKen
14th May 2010, 10:52 PM
Jesus said
Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.
1John 3:15


Wise up


Key word there of course being brother.


Ok Nordic...Go ahead and hate ....see where it gets you. (it will eat you up)

God is so holy and righteous that he hates sin.

are you holy and righteous enough?

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

LuckyStrike
14th May 2010, 10:56 PM
Do you really think Jesus wanted us to hate our father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters?



Uh, no who has ever put forth that nonsense?

The point is as was clearly pointed out in the passages above, YHWH does indeed hate. People act like today "god loves everybody" when this heretical teaching has NO BASIS IN SCRIPTURE. Just because it is oft repeated by ordained ministers doesn't make it true.

God also loves, nobody denies that whatsoever but today the portrait of Christ is like some laid back hippie Jesus who loves everyone and everything. Which of course is BS.

StackerKen
14th May 2010, 11:03 PM
Nordic read reply #8 again

Sparky
14th May 2010, 11:08 PM
...

God also loves, nobody denies that whatsoever but today the portrait of Christ is like some laid back hippie Jesus who loves everyone and everything. Which of course is BS.

In 1999, the portrait of the .com industry was that things are different now.
In 2006, the portrait of the housing industry was rosy.
In 2010, the portrait of the economy is one of recovery.

Many portraits are painted by the mainstream that are not accurate. Jesus wasn't a laid back hippie. He was forceful when He needed to be and compassionate when He needed to be. Best of all, He was the greatest contrarian of all time, which should sit well with the GIM/GSUS crowd.

StackerKen
14th May 2010, 11:10 PM
one more thing

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one

30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[a] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.[/b]'There is no commandment greater than these."

get it?

The second is this: '[b]Love your neighbor as yourself.

if you can't do that....you better repent...and ask God to change you.

LuckyStrike
14th May 2010, 11:15 PM
one more thing

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one

30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[a] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.[/b]'There is no commandment greater than these."

get it?

The second is this: '[b]Love your neighbor as yourself.

if you can't do that....you better repent...and ask God to change you.



Ken it is as if we are speaking different languages.

My original question is still unanswered.

Second, I never said God doesn't love but rather just as God loves he also hates. Which for whatever reason causes major discomfort for some.

Kali
15th May 2010, 01:17 AM
People act like today "god loves everybody" when this heretical teaching has NO BASIS IN SCRIPTURE.


There is plenty of scripture in regards to this, a few already mentioned.

If He died for the world (everyone) then He loves everyone and it states that He died for them due to His love.

G2Rad
15th May 2010, 02:13 AM
Nordic, how "Judeo-Christian" is not oxymoron? ???




----------------------------------------------
Several more scripture passages to ponder:


****
Suppose "A" hates "B". Would it JUST for "A" to receive hate in return?

Since I am reading book of Proverbs, here is a passage to ponder:

Prov.

I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.


-----------------------------------
2 Thessalonians

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

----------------------------------------------

yet in 1 John 1

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.




"God is Love" and God is a Consuming Fire and The Lord is a Man of War and God is Jealous God and ....,

ignoring and limiting God's attributes ( as they often do in mainstream) is dangerous


-----------------------------------

It is interesting to re-think "Jesus made sin" for us in the context of this thread .
Gives a new prospective for me.

G2Rad
15th May 2010, 02:25 AM
We know God hates sin.

We know Jesus was "made sin" (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Can those who rejected Jesus be "made sin" ( damned ??? ) ( and perhaps become subjects for hate (?) ??? ) ?

I believe the answer is yes.



Also note that after certain point Jesus stopped speaking directly and spoke only in parables and without parables spoke He not. That was done to prevent "them" from understanding (!) ( "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given" )

---------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------

what is "sin unto death"? ???

1 John 5:16

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Is that why without parables spoke He not? ???

1 Cor 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.


Deuteronomy 32
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
f I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

If we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, if we reject Christ - we made our choice. There no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but judgment and the fury of fire which will consume the adversaries of God (enemy of God)

StackerKen
15th May 2010, 11:34 AM
one more thing

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one

30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[a] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.[/b]'There is no commandment greater than these."

get it?

The second is this: '[b]Love your neighbor as yourself.

if you can't do that....you better repent...and ask God to change you.



Ken it is as if we are speaking different languages.

My original question is still unanswered.

Second, I never said God doesn't love but rather just as God loves he also hates. Which for whatever reason causes major discomfort for some.


Yes, it does seem that we are not speaking the same language.

I never said God doesn't hate. Of course he hates evil.

Whether or not god hates some people, is His business.

But it seems you are trying to use that to justify your own hatred towards certain people.
God is holy. He can hate without sinning. Can you?

Like I have been trying to tell you here,
We are commanded to love one another.

We are told to even love our enemy (human enemy)

7th trump
15th May 2010, 01:45 PM
one more thing

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one

30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[a] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.[/b]'There is no commandment greater than these."

get it?

The second is this: '[b]Love your neighbor as yourself.

if you can't do that....you better repent...and ask God to change you.



Ken it is as if we are speaking different languages.

My original question is still unanswered.

Second, I never said God doesn't love but rather just as God loves he also hates. Which for whatever reason causes major discomfort for some.


Yes, it does seem that we are not speaking the same language.

I never said God doesn't hate. Of course he hates evil.

Whether or not god hates some people, is His business.

But it seems you are trying to use that to justify your own hatred towards certain people.
God is holy. He can hate without sinning. Can you?

Like I have been trying to tell you here,
We are commanded to love one another.

We are told to even love our enemy (human enemy)





Ken, yes God wants us to love our enemy, but that doesnt mean you allow the enemy in your house.
You keep the enemy at hands length in hopes your example changes them.
Christians are not second class citizens by any means. The real Christians get it done. They are not afraid to get dirty. They are not weak. They are not lazy. They are not push overs. They correct where correction is needed and sometimes loving your enemy means to take 2x4 to their asses to correct them.
If they come to take your life........................YOU PULL THE FREAKEN TRIGGER!

Look at it this way Ken.
Would you allow the thief back into your house if you caught the thief red handed?
Would you allow a known rapist a stay in your house with your children?
Also, is thy neighbor the same as thy enemy?
Think about it Ken.
God put grey matter between your ears. It would please Him if you used it in the common sense way!

StackerKen
15th May 2010, 02:02 PM
7th: By all means, I will protect myself and my family.
I wouldn't hesitate shooting an intruder in my home.

Thanks for your concern :)

7th trump
15th May 2010, 04:17 PM
7th: By all means, I will protect myself and my family.
I wouldn't hesitate shooting an intruder in my home.

Thanks for your concern :)

That wasnt my point Ken

LuckyStrike
15th May 2010, 09:37 PM
I never said God doesn't hate. Of course he hates evil.

Whether or not god hates some people, is His business.

But it seems you are trying to use that to justify your own hatred towards certain people.
God is holy. He can hate without sinning. Can you?


Not at all, if I gave that impression forgive me.

My only point (in this thread) is that a lot of times churchgoers spout rhetoric they heard from the pulpit regardless of whether or not there is a Scriptural basis.

Life is to short to be burnt up with hate, God has blessed me in so many ways it would be a pity if I focused only on the negative in life.

I look at the world around me and I can't imagine it could be much worse, yet when I look at my personal life I can't imagine it being much better.

StackerKen
16th May 2010, 12:53 PM
I never said God doesn't hate. Of course he hates evil.

Whether or not god hates some people, is His business.

But it seems you are trying to use that to justify your own hatred towards certain people.
God is holy. He can hate without sinning. Can you?


Not at all, if I gave that impression forgive me.

My only point (in this thread) is that a lot of times churchgoers spout rhetoric they heard from the pulpit regardless of whether or not there is a Scriptural basis.

Life is to short to be burnt up with hate, God has blessed me in so many ways it would be a pity if I focused only on the negative in life.

I look at the world around me and I can't imagine it could be much worse, yet when I look at my personal life I can't imagine it being much better.



Right on Nordic...way to be :)