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StackerKen
27th May 2010, 04:14 PM
In His H.A.N.D.S.: How We Can Know That Jesus is God

Written by Don Closson

Jesus Shares the Honor Given to God

Defending the deity of Christ can be a source of anxiety for some believers. Perhaps it is because our defense often consists only of a couple of proof texts which are quickly challenged by Jehovah’s Witnesses and others. Even worse, some Christians themselves are troubled by passages that seem to teach that Jesus is something less than God, that He is inferior to the Father in some significant way. They are fine with Jesus being the suffering servant, the Messiah who died for our sins, but less sure of His role in creation or as a member of the triune everlasting “I am” of the Old Testament.

A recent book by Robert Bowman and Ed Komoszewski titled Putting Jesus in His Place is a great confidence builder for those wrestling with this key doctrine. The book offers five lines of evidence with deep roots in the biblical material. The book is organized around the acronym H.A.N.D.S. It argues that the New Testament teaches that Jesus deserves the honors only due to God, He shares the attributes that only God possesses, He is given names that can only be given to God, He performs deeds that only God can perform, and finally, He possesses a seat on the throne of God.

Let’s look at the first line of evidence for the deity of Christ, that Jesus deserves the honor that should only be given to God. To honor someone is to acknowledge “their place in the scheme of things—to speak about them and to behave toward them in a manner appropriate to their status and position.”{1} As creator of the universe God deserves the highest level of honor and glory, since nothing can claim a higher degree of status or position. As a result, the Old Testament teaches that only God deserves the honor and glory that is part of human worship and He will not share this honor with anything else. In Isaiah 42 God declares that “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols” (Is. 42:8).

So how does Jesus fit into this picture? In John 5 Jesus declares that the Father has entrusted judgment to the Son so that “all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father.” He adds that “He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father” (Jn. 5:22, 23). Referring to his pre-existence with the Father before creation, Jesus says, “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began” (Jn. 17:5). In these passages, Jesus is claiming the right to receive the same honor and glory due to the Father; in effect, He is claiming to be God in the same way that the Father is God.

Jesus Shares the Attributes of God

If Jesus is honored in the New Testament in a manner reserved only for God, it follows that one who is given the honor and glory reserved for God is also worthy of worship. So it’s not surprising that the book of Hebrews tells us that Jesus is to be worshipped by the angels or that in Matthew’s Gospel the apostles worshipped him when he came to them walking on water (Heb. 1:6; Matt. 14:33). Perhaps the most stirring image of Jesus being worshipped is in Revelation where every creature in heaven and on earth sing praises to the Father and to the Lamb, giving them both honor and glory and reporting that the four living creatures and the elders fell down and worshipped Him (Rev. 5:13-14).

The New Testament also teaches that Jesus shares divine attributes that only God possesses. When this claim is made, Muslims, Jehovah’s Witnesses and others protest by pointing out that Jesus exhibited the very human attributes of hunger, fatigue, and pain. This valid observation does not conflict with the traditional Christian teaching that Jesus possessed two essential natures—one divine and one human. There is no reason to assume that one set of attributes cancels out the other. It should be added that although Jesus shares a divine nature with the Father, He does not share the same properties within the Godhead or trinity. The Father sent Jesus into the world; Jesus died on the cross and assumed the role of our permanent high priest.

Jesus clearly states in John 14 that to see him is to see the Father; both are equally God (Jn. 14:10). In Colossians, Paul goes to great lengths to argue that all of God’s divine attributes are present in Christ. He writes that Jesus is “the image of the invisible God” and that “. . .God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him (Col. 1:15, 19). He summarizes the same idea by adding that “in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” (Col. 2:9). The writer of Hebrews concurs in the opening paragraph of that book, saying that “the Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being” (Heb. 1:3).

Jesus shares the Father’s attribute of pre-existing the created universe and His own physical incarnation. John’s Gospel tells us that Jesus was with the Father in the beginning when the universe was created, and Paul adds that Jesus is before all things (Jn. 1:1-3; Col. 1:16-18). In other words, Jesus has always existed and is unchanging. He has been given all authority on heaven and earth (Matt. 28:18). He deserves the honor, praise, glory, and worship of all creation.

Jesus Shares the Names Given to God

Those who question the deity of Christ complain that the New Testament just doesn’t teach it, that it doesn’t come right out and say that Jesus is God. Is this really the case?

The New Testament uses two key words for God: theos, the general Greek word for deity, and kurios, usually translated as "lord." Theos is the word most often used to designate God the Father and is also used a number of times in direct reference to Jesus, especially in the Gospel of John. John begins his book with the familiar proclamation that Jesus, the Word, was with God (theos) in the beginning, and that the Word (Jesus) was God (theos). Later in the chapter, John adds that “No one has ever seen God, but God (theos) the One and Only, who at the Father’s side, has made him known” (Jn. 1:18). Jesus, the Word, is described by John as being with God in verse one, and at the Father’s side in verse eighteen, and in both cases is given the title theos or God.

The Gospel John also contains the confession by Thomas that Jesus is his Lord (kurios), and God (theos). John makes sure that we understand that Thomas was talking about Jesus by writing “Thomas said to Him,” that is, to Jesus, “'My Lord and my God.'”

Paul uses theos in reference to Jesus a number of times. In Romans 9:5 he describes Jesus as “Christ, who is God (theos) over all.” And in Titus he writes that we are waiting for our “blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God (theos) and Savior, Jesus Christ (2:13).” Peter portrays himself as a servant of Christ who is writing to those through whom “the righteousness of our God (theos) and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours (2 Pet. 1:1).”

All four gospels begin with John the Baptist’s ministry of “preparing the way of the Lord” as fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy in Isaiah 40:3. The prophet wrote, “In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God.” The Hebrew word translated LORD in this verse is the unspoken special word for God used by the Jews consisting of four consonants called the tetragrammaton. The New Testament Gospels are applying the word Lord to Jesus in the same way that the Old Testament referred to Yahweh as LORD.

Jesus Does the Deeds that Only God Can Do

It was universally recognized by the Jews of Jesus’ day that “God created the heavens and the earth (Gen. 1:1; cf. Isa. 37:16).” So it might be surprising to some that the New Testament also gives Jesus credit for creation. Paul teaches in Colossians that Jesus created “all things.” To make sure that no one misunderstands his point, he adds that “all things” includes “things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together” (Col. 1:16-17). Paul wanted to be clear: Jesus is the creator God of the universe.

While Jesus’ role in creation is enough to establish his divine nature, He also exhibited supernatural divine power during His ministry on earth. Unlike the Old Testament prophets and New Testament apostles, Jesus did not have to petition a higher power to heal or cast out demons. He had inherent divine power to accomplish his will. Other than giving thanks, Jesus did not pray before performing miracles. In fact, the apostles reported that some demons obeyed them only when they invoked Jesus’ name. There were a number of occasions when Jesus realized that power had gone out from Him even without His intention to heal (Lk. 6:19; Mk. 5:30; Lk. 8:46).

Jesus not only healed and cast out demons, but also had direct power over nature. When the disciples were frightened on a boat, He “rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm” (Matt. 8:26). When thousands were following him without food, He fed them miraculously (Matt. 14:20-21).

The New Testament teaching that salvation is possible through Jesus Christ alone would also have serious implications for Jewish readers. The Old Testament teaches that God is the only source of salvation. For instance, Psalm 62 teaches that “My soul finds rest in God alone; my salvation comes from Him. He alone is my rock and my salvation.” How then does one explain the numerous references claiming Jesus to be the source of salvation? Matthew points out that Mary will call her son Jesus because he will save his people from their sins (Matt. 1:21). Jesus declares of himself that “God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him (Jn. 3:17).” There are also instances where Jesus directly forgives the sins of individuals, thus attracting hostile attention from the Jews (Lk. 7:47-49; Mk. 2:5-7).

The Psalmist writes that it is the Lord God “who will redeem Israel from all its iniquities” and that “Salvation belongs to the Lord.” John summarizes nicely when he writes, “Salvation belongs to our God who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

Jesus Has a Seat on God’s Throne

Our last line of argument for the deity of Jesus Christ refers to his claim to have a place on the very throne of God. From this throne, Jesus rules over creation and will judge all of humanity. He literally possesses all authority to rule.

Jesus made this claim clear during His questioning by the high priest Caiaphas the night of his capture. Caiaphas asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” (Mk. 14:61) If Jesus wasn’t God, this would have been a great opportunity for Him to clear up any misconceptions. But instead of denying His divinity, Jesus says “I am,” admitting to being God’s unique Son, and goes on to say, “you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven” (Mk. 14:62). The high priest’s response was dramatic; he tore his clothes and declared that those present had heard blasphemy from the lips of Jesus. They understood that Jesus was making a direct claim to being God, for only God could sit on the throne of the mighty one.

In His response to the high priest, Jesus draws from a number of Old Testament passages. The book of Daniel describes this “Son of Man” as having an everlasting dominion that will never be destroyed (Dan. 7:13-14). The passage adds that the Son of Man has been given authority to rule over all people and nations, and that men of every language will worship him. He is also described as coming with the clouds of heaven, imagery that is used a number of times in the Old Testament to indicate divine presence. Exodus describes a pillar of cloud that designated God’s proximity to the Jews, while the book of Psalms and the prophet Isaiah both picture God riding on clouds in the heavens (Ps. 104:3; Is. 19:1). The point here is that Jesus is connecting Himself to this “Son of Man” who will sit at the right hand of the Father, have everlasting dominion and authority, and will be worshipped by all men. This kind of language can only be used to describe God.

The New Testament makes it clear that there is nothing not under the authority and power of Jesus. John writes that the Father put all things under His power (Jn. 13:3). Paul adds that the Father seated Jesus at His right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion and above every name that is named (Eph. 1:20-21). Jesus sits on the judgment seat, He sent the Holy Spirit, He forgives sinners, and is our perfect eternal high priest (2 Cor. 5:10; Acts 2:33; 7:59-60; Heb. 7-10).

The New Testament provides multiple lines of evidence to make the case that Jesus is God. The only question remaining is whether or not we will worship him as a full member of the triune Godhead, the only eternal, self-existing, creator God of the universe.

Note

1. Robert M. Bowman and J. Ed Komoszewski, Putting Jesus In His Place (Grand Rapids: Kregel, 2007), 31.

© 2010 Probe Ministries

http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.6061063/k.6A44/In_His_HANDS_How_We_Can_Know_That_Jesus_is_God.htm

illumin19
27th May 2010, 08:03 PM
Peace stackerken,

I have an honest question for you.

If Jesus (alayhis salam) was God (subhanu wa ta' ala)........

what would that make Mary his Mother?


Now, it seems your disagreement with Catholics wouldn't be a disagreement at all, am

I wrong?

RJB
27th May 2010, 08:45 PM
Ilum, I have to address your point before this thread gets off course

Catholics see Mary as the New Ark of the covenant. She is not God. She carried the New Covenant as the Old Ark carried the Old Covenant. We see this as the passage from the Old Covenant to the New.

Revelation 11:19-12:2 (King James Version) 19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Revelation 12:1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. Where before we saved by the law to now God became our flesh and we became part of the family of God through Jesus' sacrafice.
John 1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
We do call Mary the mother of God, but that is because God became of human flesh. May did not become God.
Revelation 12:17 (King James Version)
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Now back to Stacker's thread :)



Peace stackerken,

I have an honest question for you.

If Jesus (alayhis salam) was God (subhanu wa ta' ala)........

what would that make Mary his Mother?


Now, it seems your disagreement with Catholics wouldn't be a disagreement at all, am

I wrong?

Saul Mine
27th May 2010, 08:53 PM
http://members.shaw.ca/the.toner/images/smilie/popcorn.gif

StackerKen
27th May 2010, 09:04 PM
Thanks RJB :)


illumin19; what he said :)

I would not known how to answer that really...
Mary was a woman.
A woman highly favored by God. and it may have been "unmerited favor"

But none the less, she was truly blessed :)

StackerKen
27th May 2010, 09:05 PM
Peace stackerken,

I have an honest question for you.

If Jesus (alayhis salam) was God (subhanu wa ta' ala)........

what would that make Mary his Mother?


Now, it seems your disagreement with Catholics wouldn't be a disagreement at all, am

I wrong?



Luke 1:46-55
And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
holy is his name.
His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
to Abraham and his descendants forever,
even as he said to our fathers." (NIV)

greenbear
27th May 2010, 09:39 PM
Peace stackerken,

I have an honest question for you.

If Jesus (alayhis salam) was God (subhanu wa ta' ala)........

what would that make Mary his Mother?


Now, it seems your disagreement with Catholics wouldn't be a disagreement at all, am

I wrong?


I don't know your Jesus (alayhis salam) or your God (subhanu wa ta' ala) is so I don't know who your Mary is.......

I do know that Mary the mother of Jesus is the human mother of the God/Man Jesus Christ. God is his Father, and has been his Father since eternity past.

The Bible never reveals God as Muhammad's father. Neither does the Qu'ran. Muhammad is not mentioned in the Bible at all, whereas the entire Bible testifies of the Son of God come in human flesh. If you're interested in the Bible, I hope you will consider trusting in the Son of God for your eternal salvation.

illumin19
27th May 2010, 10:00 PM
Ilum, I have to address your point before this thread gets off course

Catholics see Mary as the New Ark of the covenant. She is not God. She carried the New Covenant as the Old Ark carried the Old Covenant. We see this as the passage from the Old Covenant to the New.


We do call Mary the mother of God, but that is because God became of human flesh. May did not become God.
Now back to Stacker's thread :)



Peace stackerken,

I have an honest question for you.

If Jesus (alayhis salam) was God (subhanu wa ta' ala)........

what would that make Mary his Mother?

Now, it seems your disagreement with Catholics wouldn't be a disagreement at all, am

I wrong?



Thank you for answering my question in bold. That was the whole point of my question.

It seems that there is no disagreement then, as stackerken agreed with you.

Mary being "Mother of God" in your views.

illumin19
27th May 2010, 10:05 PM
I do know that Mary the mother of Jesus is the human mother of the God/Man Jesus Christ. God is his Father, and has been his Father since eternity past.



So you also see nothing wrong with calling Mary "Mother of God" then?

If that's so, I would just like to know where you differ with Catholics that's all.

I'm not implying that anyone believes Mary is God........only the "Mother of God".

StackerKen
27th May 2010, 10:05 PM
Ilum, I have to address your point before this thread gets off course

Catholics see Mary as the New Ark of the covenant. She is not God. She carried the New Covenant as the Old Ark carried the Old Covenant. We see this as the passage from the Old Covenant to the New.


We do call Mary the mother of God, but that is because God became of human flesh. May did not become God.
Now back to Stacker's thread :)



Peace stackerken,

I have an honest question for you.

If Jesus (alayhis salam) was God (subhanu wa ta' ala)........

what would that make Mary his Mother?

Now, it seems your disagreement with Catholics wouldn't be a disagreement at all, am

I wrong?



Thank you for answering my question in bold. That was the whole point of my question.

It seems that there is no disagreement then, as stackerken agreed with you.

Mary being "Mother of God" in your views.



whoa...wait a minute
I wouldn't call Mary the the Mother of God.....

But I might call her the mother of the God Man.

illumin19
27th May 2010, 10:19 PM
^^^^^^^

What's the difference, really??? :D

Jesus = God

Mary is Jesus' Mother, hence...

Mary = Mother of God

Where did the Catholics go wrong then? Honest question




P.S. None of the views above are held by the poster.

StackerKen
27th May 2010, 10:28 PM
^^^^^^^

What's the difference, really??? :D

Jesus = God

Mary is Jesus' Mother, hence...

Mary = Mother of God

Where did the Catholics go wrong then? Honest question




P.S. None of the views above are held by the poster.


As you probably know I'm not much of a writer....
And someone else can probably explain better. But since you asked me..I will try to give my view.


Mary is of course the mother of Jesus....the man.....Jesus was fully man..

.and he is also Fully God.

He is God come as a man.

he exsisted before Mary....so Mary can not be the mother of God

But Mary is the mother of Jesus. and Jesus was God in a mans Body.

see I can't explain it....
.and I may not even be able to fully comprehend it....But I do apprehend it...and believe it. :)


Did you read My OP?

That explains it

read it

greenbear
27th May 2010, 10:37 PM
I do know that Mary the mother of Jesus is the human mother of the God/Man Jesus Christ. God is his Father, and has been his Father since eternity past.



So you also see nothing wrong with calling Mary "Mother of God" then?

If that's so, I would just like to know where you differ with Catholics that's all.

I'm not implying that anyone believes Mary is God........only the "Mother of God".

Mary is the human mother of the God/Man Jesus Christ, the Son of God, not of a human father. God who came in the flesh had a human woman as a mother. As a former Catholic you should know where Catholics differ in this matter.

greenbear
27th May 2010, 10:39 PM
Mary is of course the mother of Jesus....the man.....Jesus was fully man..

.and he is also Fully God.

He is God come as a man.

he exsisted before Mary....so Mary can not be the mother of God

But Mary is the mother of Jesus. and Jesus was God in a mans Body.

Who says you can't write? Perfect! :)

StackerKen
27th May 2010, 10:39 PM
I like you signature Greenbear :)

greenbear
27th May 2010, 10:43 PM
I like your sig too, Ken. :)

illumin19
27th May 2010, 10:49 PM
Greenbear,
when you questioned about not knowing about "my God", which is actually everyone's creator......I leave you with some quotes. :)

"Don't you know that our God is alive and will never die and Jesus had to die?"

"Don't you know that our God is One to Whom everything submits. He is the Custodian and Guardian of all and He gives sustenance to everyone?"

"Don't you know that our God neither eats, nor drinks, nor does He answer the calls of nature?"

"Was Jesus possessed of any of these powers?"

PROPHET MUHAMMED (sallAllahou alayhi wa sallam) speaking to Christians in a Mosque when
the christians questioned him about Jesus (alayhis salam) being God.

No slander, just plain ISLAM.

greenbear
27th May 2010, 11:08 PM
1 John 1:1-3 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Quantum
27th May 2010, 11:44 PM
You either believe Jesus, or you don't.

No amount of argumentation is going to convince you.

If you are open-minded and open-hearted, the Holy Spirit will see to it that you have what you need.

If you are stubbornly blind and hard of heart, it won't matter.

G2Rad
28th May 2010, 05:37 AM
"my God", which is actually everyone's creator......


What ilumin said It is not entirely true,

God is a Spirit and does not care about flesh matters.

Likewise, man is not "limited" to his body only. Man is a spiritual being.

Not every man's soul was formed by God.
Not all man's ideas were originated by God.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

therefore God is not everyone's creator

--------------------------------------------


Mother of God

God prepared a body for Jesus on Earth.

Hebrews 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me

Mary was honored with the task of carrying and delivering that body.

In a sense she is like a surrogate mother, as far as flesh concerned.

She is most honored among woman because God had chosen her.

RJB
28th May 2010, 06:32 AM
Mary being "Mother of God" in your views.
Mary was the mother of Jesus who is God. So she is the human mother of God (Jesus).

If you are implying that we believe that Mary is mother of God the Father, that she gave birth to God the Father around 1 AD and God the Father went back in time and Created the world... that's touching a bit on the ridiculous ???

RJB
28th May 2010, 06:51 AM
One more thing about Mary the Mother (bearer) of God... In the early Church, John the Apostle was told by Jesus from the cross that Mary was his Mother. The early Church knew Mary and they knew John the apostle. The term "Mother of God" was less of a title of honor for Mary, but rather an acknowledgement that Jesus, who was born of Mary, is indeed God.

7th trump
28th May 2010, 09:08 AM
Mary was just the flesh clay pot that Christ also would come through in the flesh. God made for sure that He too, in the flesh, could over come, experience everything all us would experience to make an example for us all to overcome.
Mary is no different than anybody else because Mary had to go through Jesus like all the rest of us for salvation.
Why do you think Jesus during the three days in the tomb, before the resurrection, went to the prison (bad side of the gulf) and offered the exact same salvation as He offers us to those of Noahs time? Those of Noahs time didnt have the blood shed of Christ on the cross as an offer to wipe all sin off the plate? He did that so everyone, including those before the time of the cruxifiction had every opportunity and salvation of the cruxifiction.
It will be a sad day for you Muslims on the 7th trump.
And yes its really silly and stupid to think Mary was the mother of God. God created Mary Mary didnt create God. Illumin you have a very weak position.
Islam........................wow what a pathetic joke!

illumin19
29th May 2010, 12:57 AM
Why do you think Jesus during the three days in the tomb, before the resurrection, went to the prison (bad side of the gulf) and offered the exact same salvation as He offers us to those of Noahs time?

Reading from your "manuscripts" again? Where did Jesus (alayhis salam) say he did that?????

Islam........................wow what a pathetic joke!




^^^^
Islam = Submission (to God)
http://skepticalteacher.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/facepalm1.jpg

RJB
29th May 2010, 06:24 AM
Reading from your "manuscripts" again? Where did Jesus (alayhis salam) say he did that?????



I believe he is refering to these verses, but I am not sure where 7th is going with this.

1 Peter 3:18-20 (King James Version)

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

illumin19
30th May 2010, 02:48 PM
Reading from your "manuscripts" again? Where did Jesus (alayhis salam) say he did that?????



I believe he is refering to these verses, but I am not sure where 7th is going with this.

1 Peter 3:18-20 (King James Version)

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.




Thanks RJB (sincerely), at least you can actually post something relevant when you speak on matters.

As opposed to calling everybody an idiot who doesn't have certain "manuscripts" that only you can personally refer too :D

Saul Mine
30th May 2010, 04:26 PM
This topic is not explained in the bible. The bible was given to explain all things concerning life and godliness. We have to conclude that the so called divinity of Jesus has nothing to do with life and godliness.

Some people don't want to know the truth because they are so brainwashed by their tradition.

New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1977 Edition, Vol. 13, p. 1021 -- The first use of the Latin word "trinitas" (trinity) with reference to God, is found in Tertulian's writings (about 213 A.D.) He was the first to use the term "persons" (plural) in a Trinitarian context.

Encyclopedia Americana, 1957 Edition, Vol. 27, p. 69 -- The word "Trinity" is not in Scripture. The term "persons" (plural) is not applied in Scripture to the Trinity.

World Book Encyclopedia, 1984 Edition, Vol. T, p. 363 -- Belief in Father, Son and Holy Ghost was first defined by the earliest general council of churches. This was the First Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D.

New International Encyclopedia, Vol. 22 p. 476 -- The Catholic faith is this; We worship one God in Trinity, but there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son and another of the Holy Ghost. The Glory equal -- the Majesty co-eternal. The doctrine is not found in its fully developed form in the Scriptures. Modern theology does not seek to find it in the Old Testament. At the time of the Reformation the Protestant Church took over the doctrine of the Trinity without serious examination.

Life Magazine, October 30, 1950, Vol. 29, No. 18, p. 51 -- The Catholics made this statement concerning their doctrine of the Trinity, to defend the dogma of the assumption of Mary, in an article written by Graham Greene: "Our opponents sometimes claim that no belief should be held dogmatically which is not explicitly stated in Scripture ... But the PROTESTANT CHURCHES have themselves accepted such dogmas as THE TRINITY, for which there is NO SUCH PRECISE AUTHORITY In the Gospels."

RJB
30th May 2010, 04:45 PM
This topic is not explained in the bible. The bible was given to explain all things concerning life and godliness. We have to conclude that the so called divinity of Jesus has nothing to do with life and godliness.

You may conclude that, but then again who the heck are you? :)

StackerKen
30th May 2010, 10:30 PM
These are some things I cut and pasted about Jesus


For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.




Jesus said

"If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
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Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this,(?) that even the winds and the sea obey him!
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When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29"What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"


Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?"

"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
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Then the Jews demanded of him, "What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?"

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" But the temple he had spoken of was his body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

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I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe.

That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.

And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Saul Mine
30th May 2010, 11:20 PM
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

I read the bible once and it plainly says "In the beginning God created." Not Jesus. Yes, the bible uses several names for God, but it is never so sloppy as to use one name when it means another. Elohim did the creating, not JHWH. YHWH gave the law, not Adonai. Adonai is my shepard, not Lord of Hosts. All scripture came from the same God, so if you have a verse that seems to contradict another verse, it must be your understanding that is wrong.

For that you research the translation. In the verse you quoted, 'by' is an all purpose conjunction that might be translated to, for, in, by, because of, or several other ways. 'Hold together' is Greek sunistemi, which is translated "approved" or "commended" in every other usage except one, where it refers to two men standing together. It does not say that Jesus is God.