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View Full Version : Schiff on Numismatic vs bullion



Steal
2nd June 2010, 07:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW2yLHhw21Y&playnext_from=TL&videos=449oS2DxsH8&feature=sub

JohnQPublic
3rd June 2010, 10:25 PM
Good talk.

I talked to a friend about gold/silver late 2008 and early 2009. He went off and called someone like Goldline (not positive it was) and ended buying MS69 or MS70 1/10th gold eagles for over $300 each. I told him he should use the money back guarantee and send them back for plain bullion coins. I think he kept them, but it was a bit of a waste. They used the confiscation story to scare him.

chinmusic
6th June 2010, 07:43 AM
I find it interesting that Schiff thinks that Beck needs some education regarding Numismatics. It sounds like he could use some as well.

Bottom Line....A fool and his money are soon parted

1970 silver art
13th July 2010, 05:27 AM
When it comes to Numismatic gold and silver, it requires a lot of study of, for example, grading coins. Issues like toning, overall condition, collector demand, pricing, etc. also play a lot of factors in what a person will pay for a numismatic gold or silver coin online on ebay or at a local dealer.

iOWNme
13th July 2010, 08:57 AM
Thank you for this post....Im learning!

Bullion coin vs Numismatic coin

Found this site while trying to learn more: http://the-moneychanger.com/numismatic_files/coin_con.phtml


So numismatic coins are defined as any coin worth more than 15% of its metal value? So it could be a coin with only 25% gold, and rare enough that the premium price makes it worth 40% in gold? Am i understanding this?

And a bullion coin would be any pure coin worth its weight in metal? 1oz gold coin = $1215, 1oz silver coin = $18.28, etc?


Thanks for any help,

mamboni
13th July 2010, 09:26 AM
Numismatics refers to the collecting of 'rare' government-minted coins. Rarity can be by virtue of low mintage and/or condition/grade. To me, this limits Numsmatics primarily to older higher grade/uncriculated coins, such as St. Gaudens Gold Eagles which in MS69 or better are indeed rare and sought by collectors. But the pricing of these coins has all to do with supply, demand and collector interest and little to do with metal content. As for bullion coins: I consider the entire industry of grading and pricing them suspect at best. This is strictly a market for expert speculators, not metals investors. I have owned thousands of bullion coins and could never see any physical difference between them, excepting slight toning or superficial scratches from being stacked. As someone who is detail oriented, I would wager that if you took graded Silver Eagles of MS65 or better (which virtually all newly minted coins are by definition) out of their cases and regraded them blindly, yu would not get the same grades and the results would be entirely random (i.e. the old MS65s would come back MS69 or MS70 and the old MS70s would come back MS65 or MS68).

DMac
13th July 2010, 10:23 AM
Sigh. I've seen this one before and now that I've watched it again I am reminded how my disappointment in Schiff grows more ever since I saw him parrot the 911 lie.

He pushes bullion versus coins.

Well, first of all, gold coins stamped with legal tender denominations are superior to bars (bullion).

And FAR superior to bullion bars or coins, is 24k gold jewelry. Why? THERE ARE NO CAPITAL GAINS OR COLLECTOR TAXES FOR GOLD JEWELRY!

I am likely wrong on the percents for taxes, but this is a rough estimate. When gold bullion or gold numismatic coins are sold you are expected to give 28% of the gains to the IRS. When you sell 24k gold jewelry you do not have to report it to the IRS.

Read that again.

I have collected coins. I have collected bullion. I wish I knew this from the get go.

The best form of gold to purchase is 24k jewelry. When it is time to sell, convert ounces to grams as jewelers buy and sell gold based on price per gram. 1 troy ounce = ~ 31.1 grams.

SLV^GLD
13th July 2010, 12:26 PM
IMO, a numismatic coin, by definition, must be a coin that has been circulated at some point in its history. I am not speaking of the individual coin but the type. A SAE is not numismatic. A Mercury dime is numismatic. A Krugerrand a Philharmonic and a Lunar are not numismatic. A double-eagle, a 1982 penny and a 2010 nickel are numismatic. A sovereign strikes the line because it has no face value but it had an agreed upon conversion rate and was circulated as if it had face value. I still would not define a sovereign as being numismatic, however. Things that hold value over their metal content but did not circulate at a face value are called collectibles, rarities, novelties or just bullion.

Hope that helps.

1970 silver art
13th July 2010, 12:58 PM
This may not always apply but when dealing with silver art bars, especially '70's silver art bars, you are also dealing with collector value. Technically, silver art bars are silver bullion, however, there are old silver art bars that are rare and have "rarity values" on them and those bars act like numismatic silver because they keep a certain rarity value above spot silver based on what some of those sell on ebay. Some local dealers treat them as .999 generic silver and will price them like .999 generic silver. Buying numismatic or collector silver coins and bars for generic bullion price is always a good deal IMO.

SLV^GLD
13th July 2010, 01:07 PM
Numismatic value is specific form of collector value.

From wikipedia:
Numismatics (Latin: numisma, nomisma, "coin"; from the Greek: νομίζειν nom√ɬ*zein, "to use according to law") is the study or collection of currency, including coins, tokens, paper money, and related objects.

Also known as fiat, or by decree.

To borrow an old line from Seinfeld when Norman was trying to impress a girl:
All registered mail is certified but not all certified mail is registered.
Terminology is important.

Dollar bills are numismatic. 70's silver art bars are just collectible despite the possibility of certain ones holding a higher value than any numismatically valued dollar bills.

1970 silver art
13th July 2010, 01:29 PM
Thanks for clearing that up with me SLV. I think that I was confusing numismatic value with collector (or rarity) value in that example that I gave in my previous post. Based on that definition, '70's silver art bars are not numismatic because it is not "fiat" or "coin". It is silver bullion that has collector value.

mamboni
13th July 2010, 01:42 PM
Thanks for clearing that up with me SLV. I think that I was confusing numismatic value with collector (or rarity) value in that example that I gave in my previous post. Based on that definition, '70's silver art bars are not numismatic because it is not "fiat" or "coin". It is silver bullion that has collector value.


I learned the difference the hard way. I tried to sell this bar to a dealer as a "collectable" and the dealer offered me 10% below spot and said: "I'm sorry to shatter your cherished delusions, but that's just a hunk of silver. I'd give you spot, except I don't like the kitty cat with the funny hat design - looks rather gay."

Book
13th July 2010, 01:50 PM
But the pricing of these coins has all to do with supply, demand and collector interest and little to do with metal content.



http://www.world-gold-coin-prices.com/images/selling-gold-coins-001.jpg

Thirty years ago I bought my first and last graded coin. A silver dollar for $6.50. Couple of years later, I took my precious treasure into the same coin dealer and asked him what it was worth that day. He told me that the coin had an inflated grade and offered me $2.00.

Same guy. His grade marked on the sleeve.

GRADING COINS IS SUBJECTIVE (http://www.acoin.com/grading.htm) and a Con Man's wetdream business.

http://www.laurelandhardy.org/images/Chump.jpg

That $6.50 was the tuition for my education in Numismatics...lol.

:D

oldmansmith
13th July 2010, 05:10 PM
Agree Book, but i've bought semi-numismatic non-sposuses that have doubled in value in less than a year. Some have tripled. Not bad., and the down side is that they are still worth bullion at worst.

1970 silver art
13th July 2010, 05:20 PM
Thanks for clearing that up with me SLV. I think that I was confusing numismatic value with collector (or rarity) value in that example that I gave in my previous post. Based on that definition, '70's silver art bars are not numismatic because it is not "fiat" or "coin". It is silver bullion that has collector value.


I learned the difference the hard way. I tried to sell this bar to a dealer as a "collectable" and the dealer offered me 10% below spot and said: "I'm sorry to shatter your cherished delusions, but that's just a hunk of silver. I'd give you spot, except I don't like the kitty cat with the funny hat design - looks rather gay."


:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:

Does Hypertiger own Johnson Matthey? That silver bar looks like a Johnson Matthey silver bar.

chinmusic
13th July 2010, 06:50 PM
This subject has been gone over, around and through several times on here and the same people respond the same way each time it comes up.

Interesting points I have taken from the thread:

Perhaps 24k jewelry is something worth exploring. There is a boatload out there and a fair percentage of it owned by people who may need cash. Check Craigslist more regularly

Mamboni's point regarding modern bullion and grading rings very true to me too. Playing that game is a crapshoot and one that is easily manipulated by a very few strong hands. Even though I hold a few First Spouses I continue to have reservations. Even the smaller runs have around 3000 minted and every last one of them is at least an MS 65, and in most likelihood will never be scuffed or even handled with bare hands. What makes my coin "rare" or more desirable than anyone else's? How long will these premiums remain the norm? If a large dealer wanted to, they could rather easily buy a very large percentage of an issue and slowly release them to the public thereby increasing demand and the premium. It has been done before with other coin types.

Just Sayin'

gunDriller
14th July 2010, 01:45 PM
When gold bullion or gold numismatic coins are sold you are expected to give 28% of the gains to the IRS. When you sell 24k gold jewelry you do not have to report it to the IRS.


how about if you buy it from a dealer in Canada, and have them ship it your address in the US ?

i'm not being facetious, i would like to find what laws pertain to that. hopefully that is a freedom we still have but these days i don't take any of our freedoms for granted.