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Twisted Titan
6th June 2010, 07:08 PM
Worse than a Depression


http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/06/worse_than_a_depression.html


As the economic crisis approaches the two-year point, it is apparent that "this time is different." Few analysts believe that we are going to recover from this Great Recession in a fashion that resembles prior recoveries. Most argue about how long it might run (Japan's recovery is now two decades old), and whether inflation or deflation results. Two years into the problem, these issues are still unclear.


It is understandable why the duration of the recovery might be moot. Less clear is why economists cannot agree as to whether there will be deflation or inflation. After all, these outcomes are polar opposites of one another and critical knowledge:


"I believe that getting the inflation/deflation story right is the single-most important investment decision that needs to be made. It will determine the investment outcome of portfolios over the next decade."
- Jim Puplava, FinancialSenseOnline, July 24, 2009


Inflation and deflation proponents have intelligent, reasoned arguments. Both have some representatives that were not "surprised" by the events of 2008. How is it possible that intelligent people can forecast such opposite outcomes? The differences, in my opinion, arise from two primary sources:


1. The schools of economics themselves
2. The time horizon
Schools of Economics


Each school is complex, and not as simplistic as this short treatment might suggest, but here are the basics:


The Keynesian school of economics believes that aggregate demand is the driver for economic outcomes. If aggregate demand is too low, an "output gap" (the difference between current demand and demand necessary for full employment) is said to exist. Because demand is "insufficient," upward price pressures are claimed to be not possible.


Monetarists and Austrians believe, as Milton Friedman was fond of stating, that "inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon." While these schools otherwise differ tremendously, both understand money to be the driver of inflation.


Virtually all Keynesians, as a result of the output gap, believe that deflation is the likely outcome of our current situation. Keynesians did not believe the stagflation of the late 1970s was possible. That period had "insufficient demand" but high inflation, theoretically an oxymoron in the Keynesian system. Their continued insistence on more stimuli suggests that their notion of "output gaps" still plays a central role in their thinking.


Monetarists and Austrians disagree with Keynesians on virtually everything and frequently disagree with each other -- except on the critical role of money in the economy. Their methodologies and monetary processes differ, but both monetarists and Austrians recognize the possibility of an "output gap" coexisting with inflation.


The Time Horizon


Current data support the deflationist position. Money supply is shrinking and there is no inflation, at least as measured by the government's CPI calculation. There are few signs of economic recovery despite the "green shoots" melody sung by government and their media minions.


Monetarists and Austrians would agree that price increases in a deflationary environment are impossible. (The original definitions of inflation and deflation were in terms of inflating or deflating money supply.) Those who expect inflation, therefore, also expect a rising money supply at some point.


Reconciliation of the different positions becomes tractable if one allows for different time horizons. In fact, I would argue that both sides of the debate are correct -- i.e., we will have deflation followed by inflation.


Argument for Deflation


Financial Armageddon describes government actions thus:


Throughout the financial crisis, policymakers have focused on keeping things afloat until the storm passes. They've spent vast sums of taxpayer funds trying to jumpstart growth until the economy is back on track. They've encouraged people to keep the faith until businesses start hiring again.


Servicing existing debt is impossible because income levels are not high enough to do so. The economy cannot grow large enough fast enough to offset this problem. Debt will be liquidated by default/forgiveness.


Government has been unwilling to accept a downturn, adding more debt in hopes of generating a miracle that cannot arrive. The danger, as expressed by Financial Armageddon, is that the presumed "untils" do not happen:


But what happens if all those "untils" turn out to be wide of the mark? What if the carnage we've experienced so far is structural, not cyclical? If that's the case, then Americans are going to find that instead of experiencing better times ahead, they are going to be much worse off than they were -- or are.


Additional debt is of little value. Debt's marginal value, with respect to creating additional GDP, has gone negative. The government has fired all of its bullets. It has nothing left that will affect real output on any sustainable basis.


As the economy continues to devolve, deflationary forces grow stronger. The private sector continues to shed debt. The public sector attempts to offset this with greater deficit spending and more stimulus packages. The private sector is contracting faster than the government can expand.


How We Get Inflation


Our government is bankrupt many times over (see Spiraling to Bankruptcy), as are the democratic socialist states of Europe (see Welfare States - R. I. P.). For political reasons, none of these countries is either willing to cut back on its spending or accept a recession. Mish provided a description of both the U.S. and Europe (my emphasis):


For Europe, $1 trillion is not enough, nor would $10 trillion. There is no plan that can possibly work. But that will not stop politicians from trying. Politicians do not care about math or logic, or the fact that piling on more debt cannot possibly be the cure for a problem of too much debt with no possible way to pay it back.


We are witnessing the death of democratic socialism. No politician wants it to happen, but none can prevent it. We are at the point where the Ponzi concept of "extend and pretend" has been extended beyond social commitments and banking systems to entire economies. We are approaching what Ludwig von Mises described as "the crack-up boom":


There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit [debt] expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit [debt] expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved.


Political cowards around the world have chosen Mises' second outcome -- "a total catastrophe of the currency system involved."


None of the countries have the resources to continue to fund current programs. As their economies deteriorate, they will "print money" in order to continue meeting obligations and stimulating. At some point, the money supply will explode vis-ÃÂ*-vis the goods available.


We have seen many "impossibles" in the last couple of years. Be prepared for the next -- a hyperinflationary depression. It is not impossible, it is not an oxymoron, and it should surprise no thinking economist. It is nearly upon us.


Your lifestyle will depend on how prepared you are to meet this newest, biggest, and most horrific Black Swan. This beast will destroy economies, overthrow some governments, and alter the nature of the world.


Wake up, people! Your politicians have no intention of heading this off.

Quantum
6th June 2010, 08:46 PM
1929-1940 = Economic Depression followed by Solid Recovery

2008-2020 = Collapse of the Empire of America

Yup, worse than a Depression.

Horn
7th June 2010, 12:03 AM
We are witnessing the death of democratic socialism. No politician wants it to happen, but none can prevent it. We are at the point where the Ponzi concept of "extend and pretend" has been extended beyond social commitments and banking systems to entire economies. We are approaching what Ludwig von Mises described as "the crack-up boom":

Does appear as though it will go straight across the global boards from this vantage point.

Is why I chose to beat it to where food is plucked from the trees all year round.

BrewTech
7th June 2010, 07:49 AM
But what happens if all those "untils" turn out to be wide of the mark? What if the carnage we've experienced so far is structural, not cyclical? If that's the case, then Americans are going to find that instead of experiencing better times ahead, they are going to be much worse off than they were -- or are.

OMG!?? This question is still being asked, this far along in the game??

The hard fact of STRUCTURAL FAILURE is the point I have trying to make to people for the last 2 years. They seemed to want to repeat the old mantra that "the market always comes back" or some such cliche', and that's why they weren't worried.

Ponce
7th June 2010, 10:01 AM
Sorry guys but I had to just sneak into the room....and as I said before......"In the 1930's depression the world wanted what we were producing so that 84% WAS FOR EXPORT, all the implements of WWII was produced by Americans and that gave just about everyone a job.......flash forward.......we now export NOTHING and even sold to foreign countries the complete factories to do so, and as far as war material except for missiles much of it is now made overseas"

Every thing that I told you long ago that was going to happen is happening and yet......many of you act surprised when someone else mention it.

"No Export = No Recovery"... Ponce

And once again......"Cuba has been living under WTSHTF conditions for over 46 years. What will happen here will be A LOT WORSE and longer lasting"

Many Americans instead of doing something for what is to be are still living in La-La land waiting for Uncle Sam to bring in a magic wand and fix everything as it was 30 years ago........and sitting in front of their TVs waiting they will die.
============================================

About the "Negro Fish"?..........don't forget about the "Jew Fish" off the Florida coast which is now called the "Goy Fish".


OK, back into my cave I go ;D

Horn
7th June 2010, 11:28 AM
And once again......"Cuba has been living under WTSHTF conditions for over 46 years. What will happen here will be A LOT WORSE and longer lasting"

Many Americans instead of doing something for what is to be are still living in La-La land waiting for Uncle Sam to bring in a magic wand and fix everything as it was 30 years ago........and sitting in front of their TVs waiting they will die.
============================================

About the "Negro Fish"?..........don't forget about the "Jew Fish" off the Florida coast which is now called the "Goy Fish".


OK, back into my cave I go ;D



AhHa, so the cave is being rebuilt in Cuba currently..!!!? I've got it now.. :)

big country
7th June 2010, 12:47 PM
Oh come on now Ponce. The USA still exports goods!


American Trade Statistics as provided by the US Census Bureau for 2008 show that last year US imports totaled $2.104 trillion in products from other countries and exports from the USA totaled $1.287 trillion in products to the rest of the world. In 2008, imports to USA from other counties rose 7.5% and exports from the USA rose 12.1%.

The top ten categories of exports from USA to other countries in dollar value were:

1. Civilian aircraft … $74 billion, up 1.3% from 2007 (5.7% of total US exports)

2. Semiconductors … $50.6 billion, up 0.3% (3.9%)

3. Passenger cars … $49.6 billion, up 13.3% (3.9%)

4. Medicinal, dental and pharmaceutical preparations … $40.4 billion, up 15% (3.1%)

5. Other vehicle parts and accessories … $39.9 billion, down 10.1% (3.1%)

6. Other industrial machinery … $38.1 billion, down 0.6% (3%)

7. Fuel oil … $34.9 billion, up 124.1% (2.7%)

8. Organic chemicals … $33.4 billion, up 5.5% (2.6%)

9. Telecommunications equipment … $32.9 billion, up 4.6% (2.6%)

10. Plastic materials … $31.6 billion, up 8.7% (2.5%).



Read more: http://www.importexportbook.com/what-does-the-usa-import-and-export/#ixzz0qC6DSWxq

I'm sure military aircraft make the list somewhere. I mean we still sell F-16's to Israel last time I checked, and they were also wanting F-22's, those aren't cheap at 130million each! We still have exports ;)

ps - sorry for the older article, couldn't find a newer one

gunDriller
7th June 2010, 01:22 PM
The hard fact of STRUCTURAL FAILURE is the point I have trying to make to people for the last 2 years. They seemed to want to repeat the old mantra that "the market always comes back" or some such cliche', and that's why they weren't worried.


i think it was more like structural suicide.

when Silicon Valley still had factories in the 1980's, it was really cool. factories & robots all over the place !

then some genius accountant figured out they could make more money offshore.

the cost of healthcare & problems with workers comp abuse didn't help.

now you hear the Magic Buzzword "Localize". the Greenies and would-be political activists have decided that local manufacturing is good. what geniuses.


there is something valuable about people making things with their hands. earning a living, having something to focus their minds on.

they talk about therapy from farming, there's also a therapy from being employed and making quality products.


now we see the side effects of destroying America's manufacturing base + playing financial games with credit to keep the game going.

now they're trying it one last time with sovereign debt.

which brings us back to gold & silver.


in the Great Depression, America was a net exporter of oil and gasoline, and had loads of farmland to provide food for people - and there were a lot less people - and they had a lot fewer guns.

now America is dependent on the kindness of strangers for America's currency to have any value.

the period of history we're entering has much weaker fundamentals than the Depression.

Twisted Titan
7th June 2010, 02:03 PM
1929-1940 = Economic Depression followed by Solid Recovery

2008-2020 = Collapse of the Empire of America

Yup, worse than a Depression.



And what proceeded that "recovery"?