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7th trump
10th June 2010, 06:55 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCaNvas7gBs&feature=related

Heimdhal
10th June 2010, 07:05 PM
I only want to play "devils advocate" here. I've no dog in this fight, but simply wanted to put forth a passage from Thessalonians, that is often used in SUPPORT of the rapture, along with a few other verses:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 [15] According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. [16] For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

how do you see this passage, 7th? I ask from a purley curious position.

7th trump
10th June 2010, 08:10 PM
I only want to play "devils advocate" here. I've no dog in this fight, but simply wanted to put forth a passage from Thessalonians, that is often used in SUPPORT of the rapture, along with a few other verses:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 [15] According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. [16] For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

how do you see this passage, 7th? I ask from a purley curious position.

For starters whats the trumpet of God when Jesus comes down from heaven?
Well when Jesus returns its the last trumpet to sound.
Its when Jesus returns and those who have already passed on will rise first because they have already have rose first. They are already with the Father. They are dead (passed on) but with Christ
Then those who are alive, in the flesh, will change into spiritual bodies ("air" translates into spiritual bodies) that the dead in Christ are already in.
Secondly, when the last trumpet is sounded there is no more testing, its over. The millenium starts from that moment on.
greenbear seems to beleive in a few lies that Jesus returns later to retreive those who supposedly didnt fly away.
Well the Bible doesnt support that Jesus returns for those not raptured up. You will not find that anywhere in the Bible................its simply not there like the word rapture is not found in the bible.
Jesus only returns at the last trumpet or 7th trump and we that are in the flesh change in a twinckle of an eye into spiritual bodies for the millenium.
greenbear passes herself off as a authoritarian bible scholar but yet misses that "air" translates back to the Greek to mean "spiritual body".
greenbear picks and chooses what she wants to beleive and cut and pastes so many interpretations from many different sources that she cannt keep scripture straight or focused on.

Heimdhal
10th June 2010, 08:13 PM
Thanks for the reply 7th.

G2Rad
10th June 2010, 08:13 PM
There is no Rapture because I can't see it in the Bible


My first though was: blind should not lead



Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Mat 15:14

7th trump
10th June 2010, 08:17 PM
Heres a little more from Arnold about the rapture doctrine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYcx1GuDa-U&feature=related

StackerKen
10th June 2010, 08:54 PM
7th.
I agree with you and Murray. In that, the elect will be here on earth till the end.
That is pretty plain to me from scripture

I have to add though..Jesus is coming back to take us away....

And since you don't like the word "Rapture" how bout the word "gathering"?

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.



Peace Bro
:)

Heimdhal
10th June 2010, 10:15 PM
7th.
I agree with you and Murray. In that, the elect will be here on earth till the end.
That is pretty plain to me from scripture

I have to add though..Jesus is coming back to take us away....

And since you don't like the word "Rapture" how bout the word "gathering"?

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.



Peace Bro
:)



I dont think that 7th is so much denying Rapture, but denying pre-tribulation rapture, to which I can very well see his point. It seems fairly clear from the verses above that if people are going to be taken away into the skies, that it is going to happen when jesus returns, and that jesus returns when the 7th trumpet is sounded, and the 7th trumpet is sounded at the END of tribulation.

Now, I have another, probably silly question, but if jesus is supposed to rule for 1,000, but he ascends into heaven with the elect, is he ruling in heaven for 1,000 years or on earth for 1,000 years. If he is ruling on earth for 1,000 years, who is he ruling?

StackerKen
10th June 2010, 10:34 PM
7th.
I agree with you and Murray. In that, the elect will be here on earth till the end.
That is pretty plain to me from scripture

I have to add though..Jesus is coming back to take us away....

And since you don't like the word "Rapture" how bout the word "gathering"?

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.



Peace Bro
:)



I dont think that 7th is so much denying Rapture, but denying pre-tribulation rapture, to which I can very well see his point. It seems fairly clear from the verses above that if people are going to be taken away into the skies, that it is going to happen when jesus returns, and that jesus returns when the 7th trumpet is sounded, and the 7th trumpet is sounded at the END of tribulation.

Yep. I agree




Now, I have another, probably silly question, but if jesus is supposed to rule for 1,000, but he ascends into heaven with the elect, is he ruling in heaven for 1,000 years or on earth for 1,000 years. If he is ruling on earth for 1,000 years, who is he ruling?


Not silly at all...But this is another thing that folks don't seem to agree on.
And one I don't really have an opinion on.(cause I don't know)
But, I think the 1000 years is figurative (meaning a long time)


Regarding millennial views (what one thinks about the “1,000 years” of Revelation 20:1–6), evangelicals tend to hold one of three conservative views:

premillennialists believe that Christ’s Second Coming will occur before a fairly literal thousand-year period during which He will rule the earth personally and physically from Jerusalem;

postmillennialists believe that Christ’s Second Coming will occur after a long period (symbolized by 1,000 years) of godly influence over the world that increases over time until it can fairly be said that Christ is reigning over the earth through the church;

amillennialists also interpret the 1,000 years as symbolic, but symbolic of Christ’s reign from heaven over the earth from the beginning of the church until His Second Coming for final judgment — a reign exemplified in the heart of each believer.

Heimdhal
10th June 2010, 10:48 PM
7th.
I agree with you and Murray. In that, the elect will be here on earth till the end.
That is pretty plain to me from scripture

I have to add though..Jesus is coming back to take us away....

And since you don't like the word "Rapture" how bout the word "gathering"?

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.



Peace Bro
:)



I dont think that 7th is so much denying Rapture, but denying pre-tribulation rapture, to which I can very well see his point. It seems fairly clear from the verses above that if people are going to be taken away into the skies, that it is going to happen when jesus returns, and that jesus returns when the 7th trumpet is sounded, and the 7th trumpet is sounded at the END of tribulation.

Yep. I agree




Now, I have another, probably silly question, but if jesus is supposed to rule for 1,000, but he ascends into heaven with the elect, is he ruling in heaven for 1,000 years or on earth for 1,000 years. If he is ruling on earth for 1,000 years, who is he ruling?


Not silly at all...But this is another thing that folks don't seem to agree on.
And one I don't really have an opinion on.(cause I don't know)
But, I think the 1000 years is figurative (meaning a long time)


Regarding millennial views (what one thinks about the “1,000 years” of Revelation 20:1–6), evangelicals tend to hold one of three conservative views:

premillennialists believe that Christ’s Second Coming will occur before a fairly literal thousand-year period during which He will rule the earth personally and physically from Jerusalem;

postmillennialists believe that Christ’s Second Coming will occur after a long period (symbolized by 1,000 years) of godly influence over the world that increases over time until it can fairly be said that Christ is reigning over the earth through the church;

amillennialists also interpret the 1,000 years as symbolic, but symbolic of Christ’s reign from heaven over the earth from the beginning of the church until His Second Coming for final judgment — a reign exemplified in the heart of each believer.


Ah, good, I was hoping you'd bring up the pre/post/a-millenialism's ;)

I would agree with you that 1,000 is likley not a literal actual 1,000's but an allusion to a legnthy, perhaps even infinite amount of time. It is a seemingly common reference, or rather interpretation, from the literay works of antiquity.

For me at least, it still begs the question whom is being ruled over for this time? If all the believers are in spiritual form with jesus, then it would stand to reason that only unbelievers and those that sided against jesus would be left on earth. What happens if these believers convert? Do they ascend in spritual bodies as well, or must they wait, in death as before the tribulation? It seems clear that after the second coming, thats it, "gods eternal kingdom" will have been set up. Aint no third coming, so what happens to all those left? Right to hell, even if they converted during tribulation?

7th trump
11th June 2010, 05:04 AM
7th.
I agree with you and Murray. In that, the elect will be here on earth till the end.
That is pretty plain to me from scripture

I have to add though..Jesus is coming back to take us away....

And since you don't like the word "Rapture" how bout the word "gathering"?

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.



Peace Bro
:)


But ken this scripture doesnt say anyone is flying away in a cloud and it addresses only the Elect, not anybody else.
This is describing that at the 7th trumpet Jesus returns. Yes Jesus gathers his Elect and Yes Jesus will rule for a thousand years over those who did not have a chance to hear the real truth of the Word of God in the flesh bodies of the second earth age. The Elect will also be with Jesus teaching the multitude of those who didnt get a chance in the second earth age. You have to realize that God has set a sense slumber over many people to keep them innocent. You see this slumber everyday when walking down a street or at the malls. They do not perceive what really going on around them, ignorance is bliss but they better get it right during the millenium to overcome satans short release or they perish along with satan.
Now this thousand year rule doesnt apply to those who committed murder and found guilty in Gods court or other abominations. Some people do not have enough good works to out weighs their bad works to get their name written in the book of life. They are done and wait destruction. They do not get the millenium of teaching, they sit and wait on the bad side of the gulf for the firery pit to be open and thrown in.
Hopefully those who are taught in the millenium overcome and obtain the second ressurection for the sting of death not to have any effect on them. Once this short time of satan being released for testing is done then satan and those who didnt over come and those who committed and found guilty of murder and such are thrown into the pit and destroyed from within and their memory is wiped from those who did make it, blotted out as God describes it.

the riot act
11th June 2010, 05:52 AM
Interesting discussion, and I have heard it many times over the last thirty years.

My question then is, "why does it matter"? If a person is one of the elect, and is safe with Jesus as their Lord and Savior, then why should it matter to them if His return is premill, postmill, or amill?

Is it the fear of physical harm, and dying a painful death the reason?

DMac
11th June 2010, 07:40 AM
Interesting discussion, and I have heard it many times over the last thirty years.

My question then is, "why does it matter"? If a person is one of the elect, and is safe with Jesus as their Lord and Savior, then why should it matter to them if His return is premill, postmill, or amill?

Is it the fear of physical harm, and dying a painful death the reason?







Fear probably has much to do with it.

7th trump
11th June 2010, 07:52 AM
Interesting discussion, and I have heard it many times over the last thirty years.

My question then is, "why does it matter"? If a person is one of the elect, and is safe with Jesus as their Lord and Savior, then why should it matter to them if His return is premill, postmill, or amill?

Is it the fear of physical harm, and dying a painful death the reason?






It matters to them because they do not want anybody to perish.
They care about others unselfishly.
They fought against lucifer then and they fight against him now. And they will witness against satan when satan stands in Jerusalem claiming to be Jesus.
God choose them because they didnt like lucifers revolt to be Jesus in the first earth age. God can count on them to get the job done.


That and theres great rewards come judgement day.
Nobody on this board has yet to talk about judgement day. Judgement day is punishment as well as reward. All depends on your works, which by the way is all you can take with you.
The elect do not get a land alotment given to them during the thousand year rule of a rod of iron.
Their reward will be God himself. God made everything so everything will belong to them as well.
Not saying they are God or Jesus, but I'd say they get many privileges that God enjoys.
I'm not for sure what they will enjoy but all I know is that God says that He is their reward.

7th trump
11th June 2010, 07:55 AM
Interesting discussion, and I have heard it many times over the last thirty years.

My question then is, "why does it matter"? If a person is one of the elect, and is safe with Jesus as their Lord and Savior, then why should it matter to them if His return is premill, postmill, or amill?

Is it the fear of physical harm, and dying a painful death the reason?







Fear probably has much to do with it.

The Elect do not fear God, they love Him and obey Him.

Kali
11th June 2010, 08:20 AM
I'll be taken pre-trib...and this has already been discussed on countless pages here.

Interesting that it keeps popping back up...nothing else to talk about?

vicatoa
11th June 2010, 10:38 AM
I have two questions: The word Paul uses to describe the "flying away" as Murray calls it is Harpazo, which means to be snatched out or grabbed out.

Question- If Jesus comes at the 7th trumpet and immediately begins to rule and reign why is it neccesary to snatch away the elect ?

The Bible indicates that the entire world will hear the gospel prior to the return of Christ. The book of Revelation indicates that there will be a sucession of witnesses including Angels that will work to spread the Gospel.

Question: Please cite a reference from the Bible that anyone will obtain a second chance within the kingdom dispensation to hear and learn the gospel ?

StreetsOfGold
15th June 2010, 09:46 AM
One of the best videos I know of on the Rapture http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkyxtWZGyws

7th trump
16th June 2010, 03:27 AM
One of the best videos I know of on the Rapture http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkyxtWZGyws


If you beleive in the rapture, but even this guy is not honest nor truthful. He is biased and wants to believe in the rapture instead of being unbiased. He doesnt even take in the fact that "AIR" when translated back to the Greek mean "spiritual body" not the atmosphere we breath.

vicatoa
16th June 2010, 07:10 AM
Chuck Missler is very well respected in Christian circles much more so than the Arnold Murray cult. This Missler teaching is actually 12 parts and can be found on you tube. He is an excellent Bible teacher, you should check it out.

Air has two entries in Strongs, neither appear to be greek, they are:

H8064 שָׁמַיִם shamayim shä·mah'·yim heaven, air, astrologers

H7307 רוּחַ ruwach rü'·akh Spirit or spirit, wind, breath, side, mind, blast, vain, air, anger, cool, courage, misc

7th trump
16th June 2010, 08:10 AM
Chuck Missler is very well respected in Christian circles much more so than the Arnold Murray cult. This Missler teaching is actually 12 parts and can be found on you tube. He is an excellent Bible teacher, you should check it out.

Air has two entries in Strongs, neither appear to be greek, they are:

H8064 שָׁמַיִם shamayim shä·mah'·yim heaven, air, astrologers

H7307 רוּחַ ruwach rü'·akh Spirit or spirit, wind, breath, side, mind, blast, vain, air, anger, cool, courage, misc









I dont really care if Missler is respected.....................he is wrong. The Bible doesnt teach of a rapture.
Murray has the biggest tv syndicate than any of them. Murray is viewed from across the globe.
Missler?.....................is not.
Missler like all the others has this snatching away completely off kilter.
Missler beleives trumpet in one book doesnt have the same meaning as the other books.
Revelations tells you there are only seven trumpets total so Missler has his head on lose to rewrite Gods word to mean what he wants it to mean.
Jesus returns on the last or seventh trump. Its over from that point on. Everyone is changed in a twinkle of an eye who are in the flesh. Those who are dead in Christ have already passed on...thats what dead in Christ means....passed on and have their garments cleaned in the blood of Christ.
Christ doesnt come back to judge the world a second time. Christ returns only once, not two , not three or four times just once, so no Christ doesnt snatch anybody away to return again.
Those who have already died are either on the good side of the gulf or the bad side of the gulf in Heaven.
The bad side are ruled for a thousand years and tested again when satan is released for a short time. Those on the good side are not involved in the thousand year rule. They will not return to earth until Jesus hands the keys of the kingdom over to God after the Great White Thrown judgement meaning God doesnt return to His earthly thrown until after the great white judgement.
Think about it for a minute.......................Christ said the whole world is going to wore after the fake messiah. The Bible even says the fake(satan) is going to sit in Jerusalem claiming to be Jesus.............................what more do you need to know?

vicatoa
16th June 2010, 10:09 AM
The Bible doesn't indicate that the antichrist will sit in Jerusalem and claim to be Jesus. The Bible indicates that the Beast will setup the abomination of desolation and the false prophet will demand that the beast or his image is worshipped but it does not specifically state he will imitate Christ. That is an interpretation based on the fatal head wound and re-animation of his life. The interpretation may very well be right but it could be wrong.

A recent book and teaching I read which I would recommend is the Islamic Antichrist by Joel Richardson which indicates that the two figures could be the Mahdi and the false prophet who may be Isa (Islamic Jesus). He has a very unique take on these events that make sense in comparsion to what we are seeing in the Muslim world.

I personally try to read a variety of differnt opinions and interpretations and not get stuck on one man's cultic version of events. I try to think for myself whenever possible.

Here is a question regarding the Book of Revelation. The first two chapters deal with the churches and then there is no mention of them again. Where did they go ?

7th trump
16th June 2010, 11:14 AM
The Bible doesn't indicate that the antichrist will sit in Jerusalem and claim to be Jesus. (REALLY? I'LL GET YOU THAT SCRIPTURE) The Bible indicates that the Beast (POLITICAL BEAST)will setup the abomination of desolation (SATAN) and the false prophet (SATAN PLAY ACTING AS JESUS)will demand that the beast (SATAN)or his image is worshipped but it does not specifically state he will imitate Christ (GO LOOK LOOK UP "ANTI" OF ANTICHRIST IN THE GREEK. IT MEANS "INSTEAD OF CHRIST"). That is an interpretation based on the fatal head wound ( THE POLITICAL BEAST GETS THE HEAD WOUND NOT SATAN) and re-animation of his life. The interpretation may very well be right but it could be wrong.

A recent book and teaching I read which I would recommend is the Islamic Antichrist by Joel Richardson which indicates that the two figures could be the Mahdi and the false prophet who may be Isa (Islamic Jesus). He has a very unique take on these events that make sense in comparsion to what we are seeing in the Muslim world. (WHY ARE YOU LISTENING TO MAN AND HIS VARIOUS TRADITIONS? WOULDNT IT BE BETTER TO LISTEN TO WHAT GOD HAS TO SAY INSTEAD?)

I personally try to read a variety of differnt opinions and interpretations and not get stuck on one man's cultic version of events. (JUST ABOUT EVERY MAN VERSION OUT THERE IS STUCK ON ONE CULTIC VERSION........THE RAPTURE! ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE NOT BEING TOLD A LIE BECAUSE THE WHOLE WORLD WILL WHORE AFTER THE ANTICHRIST AND WORESHIP HIM) I try to think for myself whenever possible (IS THAT WHY YOU READ DIFFERENT CULTIC OPINIONS...... BECAUSE YOU CAN THINK FOR YOURSELF RATHER THAN LETTING GODS WORD, THE BIBLE, DO THE TEACHING FOR YOU?).
(SORRY TO SAY IT, BUT YOU LEAVE YOURSELF WIDE OPEN AS A HIPPACRIT.)

Here is a question regarding the Book of Revelation. The first two chapters deal with the churches and then there is no mention of them again. Where did they go ? (REVELATIONS IS AN OUTLINE OF EVENTS TO MAKE KNOWN OR TO REVEAL. ITS NOT A COLLECTION TO EVERY EVENT IN HISTORY.)

vicatoa
16th June 2010, 12:41 PM
I'm not familiar with "Revelations" as you call it. I do like to study the Revelation of Jesus Christ as given to John the Apostle, it is playing out currently in living color. You should read it for yourself it is eye opening, then read the book of Daniel. We call the study Eschatology in Bible circles. It's good stuff and you may actually develop your own opinions and thought processes and no longer have to parrot Arnold Murray. Miracles can happen because through God all things are possible. Pray about it.

I guess I'm a hypocrite. (Which is a Greek acting term which means to wear a mask). I listen to and read a variety of different preachers, teachers and commentaries regarding the Bible and have had taken a large number of religious classes from college as part of my degree program. Unfortunately, they must all be bullshit because they didn't mention Pastor Murray or his T.V. syndicate or his undocumented citations even once.

Truthfully, I don't know if the snatching away is pre, mid or post, but it is called the Blessed Hope so I hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

7th trump
16th June 2010, 01:40 PM
I'm not familiar with "Revelations" as you call it (oh give me a break and stop acting like a immature spoiled child. You know exactly what I'm speaking of so atleast act like someone of age.) . I do like to study the Revelation of Jesus Christ as given to John the Apostle, it is playing out currently in living color. You should read it for yourself it is eye opening, then read the book of Daniel(yea I know much about Daniel........it goes into great detail of the end times. Much like Ezekiel and Mark do). We call the study Eschatology in Bible circles. It's good stuff and you may actually develop your own opinions and thought processes and no longer have to parrot Arnold Murray (I dont parrot Arnold Murray. I like his style of reading the Bible word for word, verse by verse and chapter by chapter and taking it to the Greek so nothing is missed in understanding Gods word over some ammature "OPINION" at best. See I dont follow "opinions" or various versions of a passage. I follow the word of God as a matter of fact and not some lame interpretation that has no foundation in the Bible.) Miracles can happen because through God all things are possible. Pray about it.

I guess I'm a hypocrite ( You didnt know you looked so naked did you? I seen it like a light in the dark. I mean really, you are so confused in all these "opinions" that the Bible itself showed you that you didnt realize your hypocracy was so out in the open.) (Which is a Greek acting term which means to wear a mask). I listen to and read a variety of different preachers, teachers and commentaries regarding the Bible and have had taken a large number of religious classes from college as part of my degree program. (Ohhh...............a degree program! OK.........So you have to take all these classes that are of "opinion" of other people rather than study and ask God himself to guide you?)Unfortunately, they must all be bullsh*t because they didn't mention Pastor Murray or his T.V. syndicate or his undocumented citations even once. (yea I guess you are right about Arnold. Maybe that the reason why the whole world is going to whore after the fake messiah. And these institutions? Where are they when this abomination of desolation of the world happens? What do you think is happening when the political beast is gearing up for the abomination of desolation to appear for the world to woreship his image? I seriously hope you are not paying for this so called "degree".
You mentioned earlier that " it is playing out currently in living color" well arent these places you are going to to learn their "opinions" about the Bible a part of that setting up the abomination "playing out in living color". These institutions you go to have a roll in your indoctrination to whoring after the fake messiah dont you think?)

Truthfully, I don't know if the snatching away is pre, mid or post (So now the truth comes out that you havent a clue....after all your chest thumping from above...I'm sorry but I have to chuckle), but it is called the Blessed Hope so I hope for the best but prepare for the worst. ( There is no snatching away. I mean really think about what you are saying here.
Jesus returns at the last trumpet and we(everybody) that are in the flesh change in a twinkle of an eye. You see, Jesus doesnt change for our sake to see him. We change into the same spiritual bodies that Jesus and his army is in to see them. You really must stop with these classes you are taking and just let Christ flow into your mind. Ask God to help you in your studies.)