Liberty Dollars, Von NotHaus case, AOCS "medallions"

[Sock Puppy]

I've been trying to research what exactly happened to the Liberty Dollar case where government agents confiscated a bunch of silver and gold that was held for alternate currency buffs who bought into the Liberty Dollar concept. The leader Bernard Von NotHaus was arrested and later released on bail. I haven't been able to find how the whole thing turned out. Was he acquitted, convicted, etc? Did the rightful owners of the confiscated PMs get their PMs back?

Also, there is now some group called the AOCS (Association of Open Currency?) who has "medallions" that are strikingly similar to the Liberty Dollar rounds. Every time I read the information on the sites where they are sold, the information is so convoluted that my eyes start glossing over and my BS dectector goes off.

I guess if it can't be explained to the stupidest person in the room (which is usually not me), it is probably some sort of a scam. (Someone else said that, but I will borrow it for now.)

Any information about these organizations and their connections and the results of the trial would be appreciated. I've been tempted to buy some of these rounds just because they are interesting, but they tend to carry an awful premium.

Thanks in advance.

--SP

[gunDriller]

it's interesting that they hassle some creators of alternative currency and not others.

http://www.theoildrum.com/files/MendoCredits.small_.jpg

Mendo Credits are a food-backed local currency in Mendocino county.

what line did Von NotHaus cross that other local currencies haven't crossed ?

or was the prosecution of Von NotHaus more of a selective persecution ?


Here's a little bit more about the legality of alternative currencies -

"Like U.S. dollars, local currencies are a legal form of taxable income. The Federal Reserve and the Internal Revenue Service have no prohibitions on local currencies, as long as their value is fixed to the U.S. dollar, the minimum denomination is worth at least $1, and the bills do not look like federal money. A well-developed, sustainable, regional economy which produces more for its own needs first is possible only when control of its resources and finances lies within the region itself.

Sales taxes are charged by merchants in product transactions using Mendo Moola just like any other sales transaction. Think of it as a gift certificate you buy from a merchant. No sales tax is charged on the gift certificate itself… it is an exchange of a $20 bill for a $20 gift certificate. But sales tax is charged on the product when the gift certificate is used to purchase it."

from
http://mendomoola.wordpress.com/


Ref.
http://campfire.theoildrum.com/node/5158

[Sock Puppy]

Thanks Gundriller.

I still wonder what happend to Von NotHaus.

I think that it was something of a selective prosecution.

I think that we can all try to do something about what we don't like and if it doesn't interfere with TPTB there is no problem. Once we actually start being successful, out come the authorities to stop us any way they can.

There must be a very interesting story here somewhere, but I can't find it on the web.

--SP

[Book]

I've been trying to research what exactly happened to the Liberty Dollar case where government agents confiscated a bunch of silver and gold that was held for alternate currency buffs who bought into the Liberty Dollar concept.


The Great Ag was at one time associated (dealer?) with the Liberty Dollar franchise and regularly posted about it at GIM. His old Sig at GIM was a link to Von NotHaus's website if I remember correctly.

PM him and maybe invite him to post an update in this thread.

;D

[JohnQPublic]

Here is a thread I participated on at Kitco (Mrpublic). It has some good info in it.

https://www.kitcomm.com/showthread.php?t=47356&highlight=liberty+dollar

[Quantum]

Von Not Haus called them "Dollars." That's a â„¢ of the Military-Industrial Complex. And they have a resemblance to Peace Dollars.

[JohnQPublic]

Von Not Haus called them "Dollars." That's a â„¢ of the Military-Industrial Complex. And they have a resemblance to Peace Dollars.


Costa Rica and Zimbabwe also use dollars. He did push the envelope a bit I guess.

There are no peace dollars in circulation and have not been for 60-70 years.

[The Great Ag]

Hey, JohnQPublic:

I used to be a Liberty Dollar Associate. I am aware of the details. To date, I have not been raided nor have I had any inquiries from any fed agents.

One of the reasons the fed raided Liberty Dollar, I believe, is the Liberty Dollar, at the time, was the largest private currency circulating in the Union. The feds problem is the possibility of mis-representation. Their argument is the $ and the word "dollar" on all coins and paper money. After that there is no comparison between the two currencies.

The fed was acting in the interest of public policy. So far the courts have NOT adjudicated and all people who had paper Liberty Dollars and had placed orders BUT who cannot get their metal coins can add their name as an injured party. This forces the DA to contact every injured party to let them know what is going on. This may keep the feds from keeping the metals.

Ask any questions.

The Great Ag

[JohnQPublic]

Hey, JohnQPublic:

I used to be a Liberty Dollar Associate. I am aware of the details. To date, I have not been raided nor have I had any inquiries from any fed agents.

One of the reasons the fed raided Liberty Dollar, I believe, is the Liberty Dollar, at the time, was the largest private currency circulating in the Union. The feds problem is the possibility of mis-representation. Their argument is the $ and the word "dollar" on all coins and paper money. After that there is no comparison between the two currencies.

The fed was acting in the interest of public policy. So far the courts have NOT adjudicated and all people who had paper Liberty Dollars and had placed orders BUT who cannot get their metal coins can add their name as an injured party. This forces the DA to contact every injured party to let them know what is going on. This may keep the feds from keeping the metals.

Ask any questions.

The Great Ag


Thanks GA.

Have you heard any news on von Nothaus? Have there been any court hearings?

[The Great Ag]

Hey, JohnQPublic:

I used to be a Liberty Dollar Associate. I am aware of the details. To date, I have not been raided nor have I had any inquiries from any fed agents.

One of the reasons the fed raided Liberty Dollar, I believe, is the Liberty Dollar, at the time, was the largest private currency circulating in the Union. The feds problem is the possibility of mis-representation. Their argument is the $ and the word "dollar" on all coins and paper money. After that there is no comparison between the two currencies.

The fed was acting in the interest of public policy. So far the courts have NOT adjudicated and all people who had paper Liberty Dollars and had placed orders BUT who cannot get their metal coins can add their name as an injured party. This forces the DA to contact every injured party to let them know what is going on. This may keep the feds from keeping the metals.

Ask any questions.

The Great Ag


Thanks GA.

Have you heard any news on von Nothaus? Have there been any court hearings?

Hey JQP:
Nothaus received permission from the court to return to his home in Hawai'i. Prior to that he was staying in Indiana, I believe. The court would NOT let him go home. Nothaus fired his first gov't appointed attorney for not doing a good enough job in his defense. The second appointed attorney was forced to take the job; he knows the first attorney and was reluctant to take on a client who fired a colleague. The 2nd attorney may not be any better, as he is stating it is best for Nothaus to cop a plea to a lesser charge. There have been no trials to date. Not sure when the trial is to begin, because the new attorney needs time to go through the thousands of documents.

The court or maybe the US Mint has stated the "Liberty dollar" is legal. It is only the use of it that is illegal.

When I get more info, I will post here.

The Great AG

[palani]

It is only the use of it that is illegal.


USE, civil law. A right of receiving so much of the natural profits of a thing as is necessary to daily sustenance; it differs from usufruct, which is a right not only to use but to enjoy.

More likely the problem was usufruct rather than use. Too many people were beginning to enjoy an alternate currency.

[Sock Puppy]

Thanks everyone for responding to my initial question.

GA, did you continue on as a dealer with the AOCS people? Do you know what the connection between the two is?

Also, I noticed in one of the prosecutor's allegations that the use of the word "coin" was a stumbling block. It looked to me like they dug up some esoteric antiquated "legal" definition of coin that defined a "coin" as being something that was legal tender, and by calling Liberty Dollars "coins" they were implying they were legal tender.

I also saw a letter from Von NotHaus saying that the authorities were moving fast to convert the confiscated booty (mostly PM's) to cash and claim it as their own and that the rightful owners needed to quickly start a class action suit to claim the value they were entitled to. Any word if anyone did that and, if so, the outcome of those claims?

I'm also interested in a quick explanation of the AOCS system and if it is worth buying the new "medallions" (I presume they call them that because of the "coin" ruling) offered by AOCS members. My guess is that it isn't.

Thanks again for everyone's input.

--SP

[Half Sense]

I think what compelled the Federal raid were the Ron Paul dollars. I think TPTB really feared allowing the circulation of hundreds of thousands of copper, silver, and gold Ron Paul dollars in an election year.

The Ron Paul copper dollars were ready to ship when the raid took place.

[JohnQPublic]

I think what compelled the Federal raid were the Ron Paul dollars. I think TPTB really feared allowing the circulation of hundreds of thousands of copper, silver, and gold Ron Paul dollars in an election year.

The Ron Paul copper dollars were ready to ship when the raid took place.


Interesting observation. Any links?

[Half Sense]

I think what compelled the Federal raid were the Ron Paul dollars. I think TPTB really feared allowing the circulation of hundreds of thousands of copper, silver, and gold Ron Paul dollars in an election year.

The Ron Paul copper dollars were ready to ship when the raid took place.


Interesting observation. Any links?


From the announcement on 11-15-2007:

Dear Liberty Dollar Supporters:

I sincerely regret to inform you that about 8:00 this morning a dozen FBI and Secret Service agents raided the Liberty Dollar office in Evansville.

For approximately six hours they took all the gold, all the silver, all the platinum and almost two tons of Ron Paul Dollars that where just delivered last Friday.

[Quantum]

Von Not Haus called them "Dollars." That's a â„¢ of the Military-Industrial Complex. And they have a resemblance to Peace Dollars.


Costa Rica and Zimbabwe also use dollars. He did push the envelope a bit I guess.


Within the United States, the US Government assumes a monopoly on the use of the term.




There are no peace dollars in circulation and have not been for 60-70 years.


That's not technically correct. All Peace (and Morgan, and other) Dollars remain legal tender. Nearly every American has seen one or the other; many of us got them from grandparents or parents when we were teens.

[Quantum]

[Nothaus fired his first gov't appointed attorney for not doing a good enough job in his defense. The second appointed attorney was forced to take the job; he knows the first attorney and was reluctant to take on a client who fired a colleague. The 2nd attorney may not be any better, as he is stating it is best for Nothaus to cop a plea to a lesser charge.


Government appointed attorney?! This guy Von Not Haus has been running a sca, uh, an "alternative currency" operation of one sort or another for decades, and he has no money to afford a good lawyer? His "Royal Hawaiian Mint" operation made him a boatload of cash, and I suspect "Liberty Dollar" did, as well.

[Quantum]

I think what compelled the Federal raid were the Ron Paul dollars. I think TPTB really feared allowing the circulation of hundreds of thousands of copper, silver, and gold Ron Paul dollars in an election year.

The Ron Paul copper dollars were ready to ship when the raid took place.


Von Not Haus made himself an easy target. It has nothing to do with any "merit" of what he was doing.

If the Feds wanted to get rid of "alternative currencies," we wouldn't be able to (legally) trade silver rounds. They did raid Sunshing Minting, who made Von Not Haus' products, but DID NOT do anything about Sunshine Minting's rounds or bars. These remain available:

http://www.sunshinemint.com/Bullion.htm


Here's a video including Von Not Haus trying to pass off his products as US currency (starts about 1:45):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dflWJlbkdFc