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Awoke
23rd June 2010, 06:37 PM
OK, so I have always shot with my right eye open and my left eye closed. I have no trouble shooting like this, although I admit I am a noob and a very slow shot.

A friend of mine is in IDPA, and I have some other friends in IPSC as well. The IPSC guys shoot with one eye.

My IDPA friend said that I should learn to shoot with both eyes open. He says in a combat situation, you're not going to want to close one eye, and it pays to practice realisticly.
So I can hope and worked on sighting with two eyes, and man, I'm hopeless.

He said explicitly that you should focus your vision directly on the sight, and use peripheral vision to place your sights over the target. The problem with this technique is that because you have both eyes open and you're focused on the sight which is close to you, you see double of everthing like you're cross-eyed, then you (I) have to seriously focus to make sure that you have the center sight over the target on the right hand side (In my case, shooting right handed with my right eye lined up)

He told me that he can't even shoot with only one eye. He also warned me that it will take some time and adjustment to get used to it, but I am seriously struggling with it.

HAHA! Trying it at a range was mission impossible, becuase there are over 12 lanes side by side, then you are seeing everything cross-eyed, and the targets all blend in with each other.

So then I came home and practiced with a Sig 226 Airsoft replica, and I still was screwed beyond ranges of 10 yards.

I have put in hours trying to sight like this, and made very little progress.
Have you guys ever heard of this? Is he on, or is he off? I mean, if this is a true tactical method, I will put in whatever time it takes to master it, but he is the first to have told me this.

Your thoughts please?

Heimdhal
23rd June 2010, 07:59 PM
squint your left eye slightly , focus on your front sight ;)




EDIT:

I was just gonna leave it with that, but it wouldnt be Heimdhal if I didnt type a two page post.

Point shooting can be your friend with enough practice. The best way it was taught to me is simply to use your finger to get on target. Go try it. Pick any point in the room, just look at it, then point your finger at it. I bet you get your finger right on it nearly every time. The gun is just an extension of your hand and your finger. When you draw, just like throwing a ball, your finger, if it is properly indexed (i.e. along side the gun, not on the trigger) should point right where you want to aim. From there, its simply a task of moving your finger onto the trigger and squeezing back evenly with just the very tip, or pad, of your finger.

Simple point and click interface. This is point shooting mind you, defensive, CQB, where you arent getting your sights up and aligned fully before letting off the first round. It still works for competition, or slow fire accuracy though: Point finger, align sights, get sight picture, focus on the front sight, squeeze, repeat.

In all honestly, I dont use my sigts with both eyes open. I have both eyes open when using combat point k shooting up close. If I am going to aim for a target a little further out than 10 yards or so, I close mynon-dominant eye, or squint it slightly. Go try that if you'd like. Get your sight picture up, open both eyes, focus on the front sight (everything will be double as you describe) then squint one eye partialy, the double will go away and youll still retain moderatly effective periphrial vision in that eye.

The only down side to the squint is A) Not always easy to rememer in self defense. B) Sometimes youll concentrate more on your eye than on your sights and target.

it comes down to what you are comfortable with. Dont develop bad habbits trying to do something if it doesnt work right for you.

willie pete
23rd June 2010, 08:13 PM
I use to aim and shoot from a tactical standpoint I guess, but also I'd do a lot of firing from the hip, point and shoot from the hip, sometimes you may not have time to take aim, and I'd always aim ,hold the gun a little low, to adjust for recoil

zap
23rd June 2010, 08:15 PM
I use to aim and shoot from a tactical standpoint I guess, but also I'd do a lot of firing from the hip, point and shoot from the hip, sometimes you may not have time to take aim, and I'd always aim ,hold the gun a little low, to adjust for recoil



LOL thats what I do , shoot from the hip, with the shotgun, saves my ears a little! ;)

willie pete
23rd June 2010, 08:25 PM
I use to aim and shoot from a tactical standpoint I guess, but also I'd do a lot of firing from the hip, point and shoot from the hip, sometimes you may not have time to take aim, and I'd always aim ,hold the gun a little low, to adjust for recoil



LOL thats what I do , shoot from the hip, with the shotgun, saves my ears a little! ;)


:D :D True....also a shotgun, depending on the range, is more forgiving ;D I was referring to my SigP226 9mm though ;D

zap
23rd June 2010, 08:43 PM
;D

Black Blade
23rd June 2010, 10:39 PM
I do both depending on the gun and the sights. Some sights are too low profile for me to use both eyes while others work well. I shoot the same both ways so I figure it's a matter of preference more than anything else.

Awoke
24th June 2010, 04:00 AM
Thanks for all the input. Anyone else, please feel free to continue elaborating.

I met a bouncer at a local bar, a young guy probably about 25 years old. I was wearing a shirt with a picture of a gun on it, and he started talking to me about firearms.

Ends up that his best friends father is an instructor at the blackwater training camp somewhere in the states, and he got to go down there with a group of friends for a week to get training for free.

I don't know if he's full of shit or not, but he wasn't bragging about it. ...in fact he was kind of playing if down as if he was a useless noob, even though he had that training. He also mentioned that he doesn't own or shoot any pistols, only long guns.

Either way, I'm going to make a point of asking him if he can remember how they directed him to aim and if it's anything definitive, I will post it here.

SLV^GLD
24th June 2010, 04:41 AM
There a couple of physical considerations to open eye shooting. 1st, know your dominant eye and 2nd, turn your body to present a minimal target. Knowing the 1st means you can adjust your sight picture correctly. Doing the 2nd removes the stereo effect because only one is eye is focused downrange. Additionally, if you are interested in combat shooting then consider ranges under 10 yards the only ones applicable to practice and don't worry nearly so much with the sights as quick draws that are on target due to muscle memory instead of an aligned sight picture.

Awoke
24th June 2010, 07:42 PM
Thanks for the tips. I don't have a dominant eye, and that is a large protion of the problem.

I have been experimenting, and I find my accuracy is best when I align my sight picture with my finger indexed, then focus on the target, then re-focus on my front sight and ensure my placement is good on the target with my peripheral.

Obviously this is a lengthy process, but I'm not practicing for life & death situations, I'm just trying to build a solid foundation and program some muscle memory.

Heimdhal
24th June 2010, 08:33 PM
Thanks for the tips. I don't have a dominant eye, and that is a large protion of the problem.

I have been experimenting, and I find my accuracy is best when I align my sight picture with my finger indexed, then focus on the target, then re-focus on my front sight and ensure my placement is good on the target with my peripheral.

Obviously this is a lengthy process, but I'm not practicing for life & death situations, I'm just trying to build a solid foundation and program some muscle memory.


Train like you fight, fight like you train. Train like it IS life and death and your muscle memory will be deveolped in case it ever is. That said, theres nothing wrong with building a good foundation for your muscles first. In fact its essential. I dont claim to be the end all be all pistol shooter, but Im fairly effective. I use my airsoft to train my muscle memory, since i can do it quietly and in the garage.

Now when I draw my gun, or even just pick one up, my muscles immediatley bring it into the "power triangle" position, centered and tucked into my chest and then my arms extend the pistol out, with my finger indexed, ready for sight and target aquisition. This can either be done slow, or very fast, but my muslces do it the same every time and that is the important thing and eventualy yours will too. Just DONT TRAIN IN BAD HABBITS. They are very hard to train out.
Its something Ive been working on myself, cause I had some bad ones.

BrewTech
24th June 2010, 09:41 PM
A wise man once told me...

"I do not aim with my hand; he who aims with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I aim with my eye.

I do not shoot with my hand; he who shoots with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I shoot with my mind.

I do not kill with my gun; he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father.
I kill with my heart."

Hope this helps... ;D

Bullfrog
25th June 2010, 01:09 PM
I have the exact same problem Awoke has with the pistol. I am a rifle guy.
Bought a pistol some years back, picked it up and started shooting. I was happy with the way I was shooting. Then I messed up and started reading articles on how to become a better shot. This really messed me up, now I can't remember what I was doing originally.

So, I thought about it some, and figured out that I need to go with what feels most comfortable and gives me accuracy first. So I will be shooting with one eye closed. I do have a better grip than I had at first.

I practice shooting at 25 yards.

Awoke
25th June 2010, 05:54 PM
Train like you fight, fight like you train. Train like it IS life and death and your muscle memory will be deveolped in case it ever is. That said, theres nothing wrong with building a good foundation for your muscles first. In fact its essential. I dont claim to be the end all be all pistol shooter, but Im fairly effective. I use my airsoft to train my muscle memory, since i can do it quietly and in the garage.

Now when I draw my gun, or even just pick one up, my muscles immediatley bring it into the "power triangle" position, centered and tucked into my chest and then my arms extend the pistol out, with my finger indexed, ready for sight and target aquisition. This can either be done slow, or very fast, but my muslces do it the same every time and that is the important thing and eventualy yours will too. Just DONT TRAIN IN BAD HABBITS. They are very hard to train out.
Its something Ive been working on myself, cause I had some bad ones.


Well, I don't know what you're atlking about with that "power tringle", but I will research it. Definately, slow ans steady wins the race. I'm in no rush to develop my muscle memory, because I want to do it correctly. I intend to buy some videos on it in the near future.
I also practice with airsoft too.



A wise man once told me...

"I do not aim with my hand; he who aims with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I aim with my eye.

I do not shoot with my hand; he who shoots with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I shoot with my mind.

I do not kill with my gun; he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father.
I kill with my heart."

Hope this helps... ;D


I'm not sure if that helps or not, but I appreciate it.

Heimdhal
25th June 2010, 06:01 PM
Train like you fight, fight like you train. Train like it IS life and death and your muscle memory will be deveolped in case it ever is. That said, theres nothing wrong with building a good foundation for your muscles first. In fact its essential. I dont claim to be the end all be all pistol shooter, but Im fairly effective. I use my airsoft to train my muscle memory, since i can do it quietly and in the garage.

Now when I draw my gun, or even just pick one up, my muscles immediatley bring it into the "power triangle" position, centered and tucked into my chest and then my arms extend the pistol out, with my finger indexed, ready for sight and target aquisition. This can either be done slow, or very fast, but my muslces do it the same every time and that is the important thing and eventualy yours will too. Just DONT TRAIN IN BAD HABBITS. They are very hard to train out.
Its something Ive been working on myself, cause I had some bad ones.


Well, I don't know what you're atlking about with that "power tringle", but I will research it. Definately, slow ans steady wins the race. I'm in no rush to develop my muscle memory, because I want to do it correctly. I intend to buy some videos on it in the near future.
I also practice with airsoft too.



A wise man once told me...

"I do not aim with my hand; he who aims with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I aim with my eye.

I do not shoot with my hand; he who shoots with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I shoot with my mind.

I do not kill with my gun; he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father.
I kill with my heart."

Hope this helps... ;D


I'm not sure if that helps or not, but I appreciate it.


Check out Clint Smith From Thunder Ranch videos. Some of the best I have seen to date. In fact, Ill PM you later, I might be able to mail you some "copies".

The power trianlge is the strongest position your arms can be in. Hands together (gripping the gun) and tucked into your chest. It is very hard to get an object away from a person holding something in this position, and gives you the ability to present your muzzle in nearly any direction almost immediatley. Im sure Google will turn up some more info on it. ;)

wildcard
26th June 2010, 10:40 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

wildcard
26th June 2010, 10:41 PM
*even though he squints one eye. You can ignore that part. ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mEoYHdpuLY

wildcard
26th June 2010, 10:44 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iut30zJNfpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCsktp0pO10&feature=channel

Awoke
27th June 2010, 02:27 PM
Thanks for the replies again everyone, and thanks for the videos, Wildcard.

I was working on it againg today, and I see much improvement with the whole "Both eyes open" thing. I squint my left till I aquire the sigh picture, then open the left and maintain focus on the front sight.

I still get the double vision, but I am getting accustomed to it now, and I'm beginning to understand the technique. I got your PM too, Wildcard. Thanks again. I'll let you know if the link works.

wildcard
27th June 2010, 02:32 PM
You bet your sweet bippy. Do some searches on Todd Jarrett and you can't go wrong with his advice.

Awoke
27th June 2010, 02:43 PM
Man, Jarrett fis an amazing shot. Unbelievable. Hitting those six metal targets in succession like that, at at least 25 yards.... that's amazing. I will be studying these vids and applying the techniques at all times.

I'm trying to DL that other vid you linked for me too. Looks like a good link, but no-one is hosting at this very moment.
Thanks again.

Awoke
8th July 2010, 07:47 AM
Just an update:

My dryfiring and airsoft exercises have paid off. I can now sight with both eyes open, after a quick squint with the left to ensure my center post is lined up properly with the rear sights.

Last time I shot on a slowfire competition target at 25 yards, I hit center mass with 5 out of 10 9mm rounds.

EDIT To add that the other rounds hit as follows:

4 on the paper within the white scoring rings
1 off the floor due to a weird, involuntary flinch that cause me to dip the muzzle. (Not typical for me)

Book
8th July 2010, 08:42 AM
Man, Jarrett is an amazing shot. Unbelievable. Hitting those six metal targets in succession like that, at at least 25 yards.... that's amazing. I will be studying these vids and applying the techniques at all times.



http://www.theoffside.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/gunfight.jpg

http://www.dailydemotivators.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/rulesforagunfight-480x384.jpg

I dunno. In the real 2010 world we won't be going up against some guy who stands there and allows us to have a fair gunfight. Better off deciding to fire your pistol before the bad guy decides to fire his pistol. Surprise him with that first shot. Preferable at close range when he isn't looking. Shooting first is better than shooting fast. Situational awareness with a pocket holster is way more important than a quick draw. We are statistically talking about a distance within twenty feet.

Awoke
8th July 2010, 09:00 AM
Canadians don't have the option of carrying, so training for speed and accuracy would be the next option, I would think.

Book
8th July 2010, 09:05 AM
Canadians don't have the option of carrying, so training for speed and accuracy would be the next option, I would think.


http://www.leelofland.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/sawed-off-shotgun.jpg

Then you are talking only about home defense. Focus more on why you find yourself needing to quickly shoot somebody in your own home.

:)

Awoke
8th July 2010, 09:47 AM
Home defense is accounted for already, via the 12 gauge.

Pistol shooting for me is a hobby that I enjoy, but like everything I do in life, I like to get as proficient as possible. IPSC or IDPA is in my close future plans.

Book
8th July 2010, 09:52 AM
http://www.ipsc-canada.org/training.html

:)

illumin19
8th July 2010, 10:09 AM
How I practice is almost exclusively with both eyes open.

Your friend is right, you can't follow a moving target with one eye open....let alone move while trying to follow it.


I'm a natural lefty but can shoot pretty good with both hands.
What I do is just push one eyebrow down and tilt my head like I'm boxing to cut off the sight picture of what my sights are on yet still retain peripheral vision to the sides.......make sense?

Picture yourself making a mad face with your eyebrows pushing down over your eyes.
Now, do that over only one eye and your vision with the sights will not be doubled.

I know it sounds wierd and difficult but it works for me, try it out.


Bottom line is I personally would try and train like a real world gun fight with the utmost visual tracking ability.


Hope I was of some help, good luck.

undgrd
8th July 2010, 11:50 AM
So if you're face looks like this, you're squinting correctly?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_KTbnwsD0C84/SZao-_FPbAI/AAAAAAAAApU/63YA97gWLRk/s320/THE+ROCK+BROW.JPG