The Powers-That-Be Are Terrified of the Mass Awakening Taking Place Worldwide

[Ares]

Oligarchs are seizing more overt control in most countries in the world, the worldwide economy is on course for another - even bigger - train wreck, countries are cracking down on freedom and becoming more tyrannical, we are in a permanent state of war (and see this (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/12/hillary-clinton-well-still-be-in.html)), and companies like BP are destroying our natural resources without any checks and balances.

But as Andrew Gavin Marshall points out, the elites are actually terrified of the mass political awakening which is occurring worldwide.


Marshall collects quotes from flexian Zbigniew Brzezinski - Obama's former foreign affairs adviser, National Security Adviser to President Carter, creator of America's strategy to lure Russia into Afghanistan, and creator of America's plans for Eurasia in general - to make his point.

Listen to Brzezinski's own words (consolidated from various writings and speeches, and edited as if they were a single passage):


For the first time in history almost all of humanity is politically activated, politically conscious and politically interactive. Global activism is generating a surge in the quest for cultural respect and economic opportunity in a world scarred by memories of colonial or imperial domination.


For the first time in human history almost all of humanity is politically activated, politically conscious and politically interactive. There are only a few pockets of humanity left in the remotest corners of the world that are not politically alert and engaged with the political turmoil and stirrings that are so widespread today around the world. The resulting global political activism is generating a surge in the quest for personal dignity, cultural respect and economic opportunity in a world painfully scarred by memories of centuries-long alien colonial or imperial domination.


America needs to face squarely a centrally important new global reality: that the world's population is experiencing a political awakening unprecedented in scope and intensity, with the result that the politics of populism are transforming the politics of power. The need to respond to that massive phenomenon poses to the uniquely sovereign America an historic dilemma: What should be the central definition of America's global role?


[T]he central challenge of our time is posed not by global terrorism, but rather by the intensifying turbulence caused by the phenomenon of global political awakening. That awakening is socially massive and politically radicalizing.




It is no overstatement to assert that now in the 21st century the population of much of the developing world is politically stirring and in many places seething with unrest. It is a population acutely conscious of social injustice to an unprecedented degree, and often resentful of its perceived lack of political dignity. The nearly universal access to radio, television and increasingly the Internet is creating a community of shared perceptions and envy that can be galvanized and channeled by demagogic political or religious passions. These energies transcend sovereign borders and pose a challenge both to existing states as well as to the existing global hierarchy, on top of which America still perches.


The youth of the Third World are particularly restless and resentful. The demographic revolution they embody is thus a political time-bomb, as well. With the exception of Europe, Japan and America, the rapidly expanding demographic bulge in the 25-year-old-and-under age bracket is creating a huge mass of impatient young people. Their minds have been stirred by sounds and images that emanate from afar and which intensify their disaffection with what is at hand. Their potential revolutionary spearhead is likely to emerge from among the scores of millions of students concentrated in the often intellectually dubious "tertiary level" educational institutions of developing countries. Depending on the definition of the tertiary educational level, there are currently worldwide between 80 and 130 million "college" students. Typically originating from the socially insecure lower middle class and inflamed by a sense of social outrage, these millions of students are revolutionaries-in-waiting, already semi-mobilized in large congregations, connected by the Internet and pre-positioned for a replay on a larger scale of what transpired years earlier in Mexico City or in Tiananmen Square. Their physical energy and emotional frustration is just waiting to be triggered by a cause, or a faith, or a hatred.



Politically awakened mankind craves political dignity, which democracy can enhance, but political dignity also encompasses ethnic or national self-determination, religious self-definition, and human and social rights, all in a world now acutely aware of economic, racial and ethnic inequities. The quest for political dignity, especially through national self-determination and social transformation, is part of the pulse of self-assertion by the world's underprivileged

The misdiagnosis [of foreign policy] pertains to a relatively vague, excessively abstract, highly emotional, semi-theological definition of the chief menace that we face today in the world, and the consequent slighting of what I view as the unprecedented global challenge arising out of the unique phenomenon of a truly massive global political awakening of mankind. We live in an age in which mankind writ large is becoming politically conscious and politically activated to an unprecedented degree, and it is this condition which is producing a great deal of international turmoil.

That turmoil is the product of the political awakening, the fact that today vast masses of the world are not politically neutered, as they have been throughout history. They have political consciousness. It may be undefined, it may point in different directions, it may be primitive, it may be intolerant, it may be hateful, but it is a form of political activism.

The other major change in international affairs is that for the first time, in all of human history, mankind has been politically awakened. That is a total new reality – total new reality. It has not been so for most of human history until the last one hundred years. And in the course of the last one hundred years, the whole world has become politically awakened. And no matter where you go, politics is a matter of social engagement, and most people know what is generally going on –generally going on – in the world, and are consciously aware of global inequities, inequalities, lack of respect, exploitation. Mankind is now politically awakened and stirring. The combination of the two: the diversified global leadership, politically awakened masses, makes a much more difficult context for any major power including, currently, the leading world power: the United States.
The people of the world are waking up to the reality of what is happening. If we wake up fast enough, we can reclaim our power and dignity, and shake off those who would steal everything we have, including our money, opportunity and freedom.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2010/06/powers-that-be-are-terrified-of-mass.html

[MAGNES]

That is an excellent blog, most stories are full of related stories and links.

Lots on economy on there, excellent cherry picked material supported
with other stories and links.

Go to original above, it has hot links.

[Ares]

That is an excellent blog, most stories are full of related stories and links.

Lots on economy on there, excellent cherry picked material supported
with other stories and links.

Go to original above, it has hot links.


I agree, would of spent way too much time embedding the links. But it has a ton of them in this story.

[uranian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HFaJohG2vo

[wildcard]

I am always happy to see the vids of groups confronting these scum out in public. It's only a step from there to the lowest branch of the nearest oak.

[Serpo]

TPTB know they are doomed,time is running out for them,their plans have failed ,will fail,believe it.
Getting to the next stage will probably involve some pain as they dont want to give up their power as they are hooked,and addicted to it.
THE END IS NIGH for them at least.

[Quantum]

There is no "mass awakening."

There would be a mass awakening if the people:

1) turned off the TV...forever.

2) stopped voting...and canceled their voter registration.


HOWEVER...

Talmudvision viewership remains morbidly high, and subscription to cable and satellite TV service is higher than ever.

Tens of millions of imbeciles continue to vote...and support "patriotic" and/or "pro-constitution" candidates.



"The Powers that Be" are NOT afraid of us. They know at least 90% of the masses will continue to be befuddled and impotent.

"The Powers that Be" know that they will come close to Total Victory. They know that the vast majority of humanity will EMBRACE a "New World Order," and take the Mark of the Beast, the evil grand finale in worship of government. They know that God's Words to us in Revelation even admit all this will come to pass. "The Powers that Be" simply disagree that Christ will win in the end. They believe that they, and their boss, the Devil, will win, instead.

You will have two choices in the foreseeable future:

1) you will embrace the New World Order, and take the Mark of the Beast (a universal identifier).

OR

2) you will resist, and DIE (like I have chosen - I will never betray God).

There will be no fantasy third option.

[Ares]

There is no "mass awakening."

There would be a mass awakening if the people:

1) turned off the TV...forever.

2) stopped voting...and canceled their voter registration.


HOWEVER...

Talmudvision viewership remains morbidly high, and subscription to cable and satellite TV service is higher than ever.

Tens of millions of imbeciles continue to vote...and support "patriotic" and/or "pro-constitution" candidates.



"The Powers that Be" are NOT afraid of us. They know at least 90% of the masses will continue to be befuddled and impotent.

"The Powers that Be" know that they will come close to Total Victory. They know that the vast majority of humanity will EMBRACE a "New World Order," and take the Mark of the Beast, the evil grand finale in worship of government. They know that God's Words to us in Revelation even admit all this will come to pass. "The Powers that Be" simply disagree that Christ will win in the end. They believe that they, and their boss, the Devil, will win, instead.

You will have two choices in the foreseeable future:

1) you will embrace the New World Order, and take the Mark of the Beast (a universal identifier).

OR

2) you will resist, and DIE (like I have chosen - I will never betray God).

There will be no fantasy third option.



I choose option 2

[Quantum]

TPTB know they are doomed,time is running out for them,their plans have failed ,will fail,believe it.


You really believe this BS?

If TPTB were afraid of us, today's McDonald v. Chicago decision would have been 9 to 0 against the Second Amendment.

The System doesn't fear the vast majority. They only fear the lone wolves. And they are successfully maneuvering the masses of morons into destroying the lone wolves through fear of "terrorism."

[FunnyMoney]

TPTB know they are doomed,time is running out for them,their plans have failed ,will fail,believe it.



Let me try to bring things back to reality, one phrase at a time:

TPTB know they are doomed... It is hard to know you're doomed when your great grandparents lived in amazing luxury, your grandparents were some of the most powerful and rich aristocracy the world has ever know, when your parents live a life in secret surrounded by many layers of servants and protectors and you have a bank account which could hire every lawyer, convince every politician and bribe every judge on the planet, twice over.

time is running out for them... Since recorded time they have rarely run out of time or been called to task. Their power and accumulation of resources and thus free time to further their agendas has been impoving steadily for nearly 2 centuries now, without a single set-back. And not only in the Americas but globally. And when examining history prior to a 170 years ago, the number of setbacks of any significance can be counted on one hand.

their plans have failed ,will fail,believe it... Again, see paragraph above. Their plans have been flawless.

The global removal of silver from the coin was a stupendous victory. They defeated 5000 years of historic norms in a mere 2 and a half decades.

The near-global removal the the worker's right to self protection (only the USA 2nd A. right remains among the large populations) was also a accomplishment which should be looked upon as absolutely amazing. The ability to get so many diverse countries to so easily to pass restrictive gun laws was a giant victory for them.

And then we come to the fiat money and the central banks of the world. 3 strikes and your argument is out. They have not failed, are not failing and will unlikely fail anytime soon. You can believe something which is beyond all logic if you want to, but I certainly wouldn't base too many decisions on it.



Front the article...
"Mankind is now politically awakened and stirring..... "

So I looked out the window and expected to see anti-war marches which rival those of the vietnam era. I asked a co-worker if they had every heard of tower #7. Nearly everybody I know and meet believes we live in a democracy and it's a democracy which the founding fathers intended for the nation. I told a well educated, very successful Ph.d that the Federal Reserve is actually not federal at all but owned by private individuals who have never been audited and work in nearly complete secrecy - they argued the point till they were blue.

If this is the new political awakening - we're the ones in big trouble. Brzezinski is throwing out false facts to make it look like the controlled opposition groups and individuals are making headway. It is a ploy and a trick. Those unable to firmly remain outside the matrix will be susceptible over and again to these kind of ideas. It will become increasingly difficult for those outside the matrix
to expose these false ideas and trick, even on the so called "freedom and liberty" forums. It will become impossible to expose them in the mainstream or on main-street.

The reactions of some members on this thread are not a good sign for things to come. The false sense of hope (and not that I don't like hope, I do like it), but the false sense of hope is not just concerning but outright dangerous. Hope is not a strategy. Fellow GSUS and former GIM1 members need to realize that defeating the PTB is going to be much more difficult than anyone can imagine. History has shown that plan A has almost never worked (never permanently) and plan B still has no definition.

[7th trump]

There is no "mass awakening."

There would be a mass awakening if the people:

1) turned off the TV...forever.

2) stopped voting...and canceled their voter registration.


HOWEVER...

Talmudvision viewership remains morbidly high, and subscription to cable and satellite TV service is higher than ever.

Tens of millions of imbeciles continue to vote...and support "patriotic" and/or "pro-constitution" candidates.



"The Powers that Be" are NOT afraid of us. They know at least 90% of the masses will continue to be befuddled and impotent.

"The Powers that Be" know that they will come close to Total Victory. They know that the vast majority of humanity will EMBRACE a "New World Order," and take the Mark of the Beast, the evil grand finale in worship of government. They know that God's Words to us in Revelation even admit all this will come to pass. "The Powers that Be" simply disagree that Christ will win in the end. They believe that they, and their boss, the Devil, will win, instead.

You will have two choices in the foreseeable future:

1) you will embrace the New World Order, and take the Mark of the Beast (a universal identifier).

OR

2) you will resist, and DIE (like I have chosen - I will never betray God).

There will be no fantasy third option.


Hey quantum........ever heard of the beast that gets the mortal wound to one of its heads?
Your beloved one world system tptb (kenites) are trying to impliment doesnt work. It fissle or peters out..............its given a mortal blow only to be given life by satan himself.
Not only that but the merchants ( again the kenites) and their luxurious system completely fails and they look back wondering what happened.
Yep its given a pretty good mortal wound that satan appears to give it life again.
The mark of the beast is not any identifyer either....................its nothing but a parable that explains those who beleive ( on the forehead) the fake Christ (satan) is the real Christ. The mark on your forehead is beleiving the fake christ is real when in fact the fake is satan. The mark on your hand is nothing more than someone helping along satans church being the fake Christ.
Thgis is why you are not to be found given suckle in the end days because if you are giving suckle as a bride of Christ you were not faithful while the real Christ was away. Dont get caught giving suckle to satans church revival!
Yea its that easy to understand quantum....that easy!
The whole world is going to whore after the devil (the fake christ) and not even know they are woreshipping satan.

I dont think you can betray God if you do not know the difference between satan play acting as jesus or the real Jesus.
Do you know and understand or have wisdom, as God puts it, to understand what 666 is?
I know you dont know, but please take a jab at it.
Only the Elect can commit the unpardonable sin ( the ultimate betrayal).

[7th trump]

TPTB know they are doomed,time is running out for them,their plans have failed ,will fail,believe it.



Let me try to bring things back to reality, one phrase at a time:

TPTB know they are doomed... It is hard to know you're doomed when your great grandparents lived in amazing luxury, your grandparents were some of the most powerful and rich aristocracy the world has ever know, when your parents live a life in secret surrounded by many layers of servants and protectors and you have a bank account which could hire every lawyer, convince every politician and bribe every judge on the planet, twice over.

time is running out for them... Since recorded time they have rarely run out of time or been called to task. Their power and accumulation of resources and thus free time to further their agendas has been impoving steadily for nearly 2 centuries now, without a single set-back. And not only in the Americas but globally. And when examining history prior to a 170 years ago, the number of setbacks of any significance can be counted on one hand.

their plans have failed ,will fail,believe it... Again, see paragraph above. Their plans have been flawless.

The global removal of silver from the coin was a stupendous victory. They defeated 5000 years of historic norms in a mere 2 and a half decades.

The near-global removal the the worker's right to self protection (only the USA 2nd A. right remains among the large populations) was also a accomplishment which should be looked upon as absolutely amazing. The ability to get so many diverse countries to so easily to pass restrictive gun laws was a giant victory for them.

And then we come to the fiat money and the central banks of the world. 3 strikes and your argument is out. They have not failed, are not failing and will unlikely fail anytime soon. You can believe something which is beyond all logic if you want to, but I certainly wouldn't base too many decisions on it.



Front the article...
"Mankind is now politically awakened and stirring..... "

So I looked out the window and expected to see anti-war marches which rival those of the vietnam era. I asked a co-worker if they had every heard of tower #7. Nearly everybody I know and meet believes we live in a democracy and it's a democracy which the founding fathers intended for the nation. I told a well educated, very successful Ph.d that the Federal Reserve is actually not federal at all but owned by private individuals who have never been audited and work in nearly complete secrecy - they argued the point till they were blue.

If this is the new political awakening - we're the ones in big trouble. Brzezinski is throwing out false facts to make it look like the controlled opposition groups and individuals are making headway. It is a ploy and a trick. Those unable to firmly remain outside the matrix will be susceptible over and again to these kind of ideas. It will become increasingly difficult for those outside the matrix
to expose these false ideas and trick, even on the so called "freedom and liberty" forums. It will become impossible to expose them in the mainstream or on main-street.

The reactions of some members on this thread are not a good sign for things to come. The false sense of hope (and not that I don't like hope, I do like it), but the false sense of hope is not just concerning but outright dangerous. Hope is not a strategy. Fellow GSUS and former GIM1 members need to realize that defeating the PTB is going to be much more difficult than anyone can imagine. History has shown that plan A has almost never worked (never permanently) and plan B still has no definition.

It isnt that hard to accomplish when you put people in power to pass laws.
Look at Roosevelt........he without the population ever really catching on had the USofA join the ILO.
International Labor Organization.......................eminates from the arm and hammer of the communist USSR.
Google it.

[jetgraphics]

The widespread ignorance of history, the result of decades of effective propaganda, will prevent any meaningful resistance to TPTB.

Just recently, I learned of the quasi-war with France, in 1798.
(!!!!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasi-War
The Quasi-War was an undeclared war fought almost entirely at sea between the United States and France from 1798 to 1800. In the United States, the conflict was sometimes also referred to as the Franco-American War, the Undeclared War with France, the Undeclared Naval War, the Pirate Wars, or the Half-War.

I use to joke that France was one of the few nations that we hadn't fought a war against. OOPS.

In like manner, the vast majority are kept in ignorance about the evils of usury, and collectivism. Most Americans have embraced both.

Frankly, the only "mass awakening" that would cause meaningful change would require a defection from the banking system, and national socialism. And that is unlikely to happen, since almost all aspects of the American economic system is subject to them.

To illustrate, there is no "right to healthcare" when you first have to buy permission from a government licensed person to buy medical treatment from another government licensed person, who acquires his supplies from only licensed sources.

[Silver Rocket Bitches!]

Read the entire article at http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19873

It's long but very good.

Basically, the same technology the elite are using to control the population is also having the effect of creating a mass awakening.

The elite are aware of this and are trying to counter it.

Is this the reason for the sudden push to create a Internet kill switch?

Consider this gem from the article:

When the middle classes of the west are plunged into poverty, it will force an awakening, for when people have nothing, they have nothing left to lose. The only way that the entrenched powers of the world have been able to expand their power and maintain their power is with the ignorant consent of the populations of the west. Issues of war, empire, economics and terror shape public opinion and allow social planners to redirect and reconstitute society. The people of the west have allowed themselves to be ruled as such and have allowed our rulers to be so ruthless in our names. People have been blinded by consumerism and entertainment. Images of celebrities, professional sports, Hollywood, iPods, blackberrys, and PCs consume the minds of people, and especially the youth of the west today. It has been the illusion of being the consuming class that has allowed our societies to be run so recklessly. So long as we have our TVs and PCs we won’t pay attention to anything else!

[Ash_Williams]

No one is waking up.

Any protest in the world right now is for one reason: "I isn't gettin' mine".

[wildcard]

I heard an estimate that the rothschilds have amassed a worldwide fortune of around 500 trillion dollars. That buys a lot of control.

[steyr_m]

TPTB know they are doomed,time is running out for them,their plans have failed ,will fail,believe it.



Let me try to bring things back to reality, one phrase at a time:

TPTB know they are doomed... It is hard to know you're doomed when your great grandparents lived in amazing luxury, your grandparents were some of the most powerful and rich aristocracy the world has ever know, when your parents live a life in secret surrounded by many layers of servants and protectors and you have a bank account which could hire every lawyer, convince every politician and bribe every judge on the planet, twice over.

time is running out for them... Since recorded time they have rarely run out of time or been called to task. Their power and accumulation of resources and thus free time to further their agendas has been impoving steadily for nearly 2 centuries now, without a single set-back. And not only in the Americas but globally. And when examining history prior to a 170 years ago, the number of setbacks of any significance can be counted on one hand.

their plans have failed ,will fail,believe it... Again, see paragraph above. Their plans have been flawless.

The global removal of silver from the coin was a stupendous victory. They defeated 5000 years of historic norms in a mere 2 and a half decades.

The near-global removal the the worker's right to self protection (only the USA 2nd A. right remains among the large populations) was also a accomplishment which should be looked upon as absolutely amazing. The ability to get so many diverse countries to so easily to pass restrictive gun laws was a giant victory for them.

And then we come to the fiat money and the central banks of the world. 3 strikes and your argument is out. They have not failed, are not failing and will unlikely fail anytime soon. You can believe something which is beyond all logic if you want to, but I certainly wouldn't base too many decisions on it.


+1
Definitely deserve a standing ovation and a round of applause !


Yep +1 here. The world would have been a better place if Hitler would have won. He was our last hope.

For those who don't "get it" and rely on their history from school text books and the History Channel, read this...

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/authors/Hartley-Ezra-Pound-on-Money.html

relevant text -
<blockquote>
Pound recognized two very important threats to the international banking community that arose out of the Third Reich. First, Hitler abandoned the gold standard, meaning that Nazi Germany suddenly had the power to prevent defaulting on its future debt simply by printing money — a power that the U.S. copied from Germany just as it copied the autobahns. Second, and much more important, the Reich took back the power of central banks by financing infrastructure projects directly, issuing notes in payment to the laborers, contractors, and suppliers rather than first borrowing the money from a central bank at interest. (See here and here.) If this practice had spread, bankers would be no more powerful than plumbers.

Furthermore, as long as the supply of this newly printed money in the form of notes matched the increase in GNP and future productivity from these new highways, rails, and factories, the printing of money would not necessarily produce inflation. The Reich also issued debt directly to German citizens and businesses to finance Hitler’s economic miracle, but the central banks lost control over the money supply and lost the ability to trigger banking panics and depressions inside the Reich. It was a mortal threat, and it had to be stopped. Pound was right.

Hitler’s experiment in freedom from banking was broken, and the finance/government partnership was preserved at the cost of millions of lives in World War II.</blockquote>

[Ash_Williams]

Pound recognized two very important threats to the international banking community that arose out of the Third Reich. First, Hitler abandoned the gold standard, meaning that Nazi Germany suddenly had the power to prevent defaulting on its future debt simply by printing money — a power that the U.S. copied from Germany just as it copied the autobahns. Second, and much more important, the Reich took back the power of central banks by financing infrastructure projects directly, issuing notes in payment to the laborers, contractors, and suppliers rather than first borrowing the money from a central bank at interest. (See here and here.) If this practice had spread, bankers would be no more powerful than plumbers.

So when Schwarzenegger does it we expect failure but when Hitler did it it was a good idea...

[steyr_m]

Pound recognized two very important threats to the international banking community that arose out of the Third Reich. First, Hitler abandoned the gold standard, meaning that Nazi Germany suddenly had the power to prevent defaulting on its future debt simply by printing money — a power that the U.S. copied from Germany just as it copied the autobahns. Second, and much more important, the Reich took back the power of central banks by financing infrastructure projects directly, issuing notes in payment to the laborers, contractors, and suppliers rather than first borrowing the money from a central bank at interest. (See here and here.) If this practice had spread, bankers would be no more powerful than plumbers.

So when Schwarzenegger does it we expect failure but when Hitler did it it was a good idea...


You'll have to give me more then that, I don't know what you're talking about.

[Quantum]

Pound recognized two very important threats to the international banking community that arose out of the Third Reich. First, Hitler abandoned the gold standard, meaning that Nazi Germany suddenly had the power to prevent defaulting on its future debt simply by printing money — a power that the U.S. copied from Germany just as it copied the autobahns. Second, and much more important, the Reich took back the power of central banks by financing infrastructure projects directly, issuing notes in payment to the laborers, contractors, and suppliers rather than first borrowing the money from a central bank at interest. (See here and here.) If this practice had spread, bankers would be no more powerful than plumbers.

So when Schwarzenegger does it we expect failure but when Hitler did it it was a good idea...


You'll have to give me more then that, I don't know what you're talking about.


An absolute gold standard serves only the rich. And I suspect that's why most people who support it, do.

Fiat money - issued without interest - is a necessary transition tool for the economic situation the world has found itself in, for over 100 years. Hitler dared, and "had to be" destroyed for doing so.

If we went from fiat-with-interest "money" today to a pure gold standard tomorrow, the wealthy would seamlessly continue their absolute control, and hundreds of millions of the common folk would be further impoverished.

If America could be saved, the first thing to do to stabilize the economy would be to issue hundreds of billions of no-interest United States Notes, exchanging them for the fraudulent with-interest "Federal Reserve" Notes in circulation.

[uranian]

best way to measure whether people are waking up is how many are turning off the MSM programming. to wit:

http://www.thefutureofpublishing.com/images/uploadimages/Network_Viewing.jpg

viewers of ABC, CBS and NBC.

newspapers:

http://michaeldfanning.com/files/2009/07/newspaper-readership_by_age.jpg

[steyr_m]

An absolute gold standard serves only the rich. And I suspect that's why most people who support it, do.

Fiat money - issued without interest - is a necessary transition tool for the economic situation the world has found itself in, for over 100 years. Hitler dared, and "had to be" destroyed for doing so.

If we went from fiat-with-interest "money" today to a pure gold standard tomorrow, the wealthy would seamlessly continue their absolute control, and hundreds of millions of the common folk would be further impoverished.

If America could be saved, the first thing to do to stabilize the economy would be to issue hundreds of billions of no-interest United States Notes, exchanging them for the fraudulent with-interest "Federal Reserve" Notes in circulation.


Oh, I agree 100%, an absolute Gold Standard serves the rich. Read Bryant's Cross of Gold Speech. I'm more of an advocate of a bi-metallic or a quad-metallic standard (Gold, silver, platinum, palladium)

I personally feel we're doomed. This has been too well thought out, for too long, with big, big players. If somehow, Israel loses the war with Iran and the US breaks up, we might have a chance.

[jetgraphics]

An absolute gold standard serves only the rich. And I suspect that's why most people who support it, do.

Fiat money - issued without interest - is a necessary transition tool for the economic situation the world has found itself in, for over 100 years. Hitler dared, and "had to be" destroyed for doing so.

If we went from fiat-with-interest "money" today to a pure gold standard tomorrow, the wealthy would seamlessly continue their absolute control, and hundreds of millions of the common folk would be further impoverished.

If America could be saved, the first thing to do to stabilize the economy would be to issue hundreds of billions of no-interest United States Notes, exchanging them for the fraudulent with-interest "Federal Reserve" Notes in circulation.

A "gold standard" is non-functional. Estimated world wide supply of above ground gold is 5.5 billion ounces. (2005). With a population in excess of 6.7 billion, that computes to less than 1/2 ounce per capita. That is far too little to function as a medium of exchange. Silver is not much better. In fact, no precious metal coin based monetary system is sound. Taking a subset of a set and decreeing that it has relative value is a recipe for disaster.

The problem is money madness, carefully ingrained in "modern" civilization.

In essence, money is an abstraction, an accounting system and a medium of exchange for the REALITY of the marketplace filled with goods and services. To constrain money to a "thing" especially a scarce precious metal is not reasonable.

It's like trying to keep score when you have a limited supply of tick marks, and that you have to buy. What do you do when you run out?
Look around, and see for yourself.

[Saul Mine]

Every time somebody says TPTB are somehow afraid, it reminds me of the drill instructor in boot camp talking about getting into a fight with a recruit and it looked like he was going to lose. So he grabbed the recruit and jumped out the window with him. He figured if he landed on top, he won. And that is the way TPTB goons think: they don't care if the whole world crashes as long as they are on top all the way down.

[Awoke]

Every time somebody says TPTB are somehow afraid, it reminds me of the drill instructor in boot camp talking about getting into a fight with a recruit and it looked like he was going to lose. So he grabbed the recruit and jumped out the window with him. He figured if he landed on top, he won. And that is the way TPTB goons think: they don't care if the whole world crashes as long as they are on top all the way down.


That's food for thought. Quite a mentality!

[Ash_Williams]

I wasn't saying I support a gold standard. It didn't work before, and putting one in now would mean the US is no longer the richest nation.

But government printing has it's drawbacks too. California took enough heat for it's IOUs because we recognized it as somewhat silly and desperate. It was a bluff mostly, the value of them being set by how confident people were in the state gov to pay up.

Same with just pure printing. The claim is made you can tie it directly to the growth of the economy, but this might not be accurate. That assumes there's no competing currencies, and that's just not true. The maximum demand of the currency is based on the gdp - but the minimum is based on taxation. There is no easy answer unless we have 0 taxes or voluntary taxes. It's not like Hitler stumbled upon some great secret no one had figured out before.

As for the interest paid that supposedly enslaves us, where does that go? Where do the fed profits go? What all the little internet movies forget to mention is that it just goes to the treasury. The method used now, good or bad, does have the effect of creating demand for every dollar out there, since it all needs to be "paid back".

[BigShiny]

Why is everyone here so doom and gloom? Ever heard of Quantum Mechanics? You create your own reality, so stop focusing on how evil and powerful a bunch of wannabe commissars are and live your lives to the fullest. No need to put your head in the sand, just focus on doing the small things on a daily basis that can make a difference in the long run if enough people do them.

Are TPTB really that powerful? Have kings and oligarchs never been deposed? European history is full of uprisings and pogroms - proof that power systems must crumble given enough time.

[Awoke]

Are TPTB really that powerful? Have kings and oligarchs never been deposed? European history is full of uprisings and pogroms - proof that power systems must crumble given enough time.


To answer the two questions and the statement, yes, yes, and in almost every instance it is verifiable that the jew was at the root of these uprisings/revolutions/governmental collapses.

[VX1]

As for the interest paid that supposedly enslaves us, where does that go? Where do the fed profits go? What all the little internet movies forget to mention is that it just goes to the treasury. The method used now, good or bad, does have the effect of creating demand for every dollar out there, since it all needs to be "paid back".



I know the FED, when backed into a corner, likes to say all the profits go back to the Treasury. Are you suggesting that we owe the interest for every FRN created back to ourselves? I don't think so. An honest audit of the Federal Reserve would reveal quite a different reality than they like to portray.

[Quantum]

Ever heard of Quantum Mechanics? You create your own reality, so stop focusing on how evil and powerful a bunch of wannabe commissars are and live your lives to the fullest.


Obviously, I have heard of Quantum Mechanics (they're my employees ;D ), and, "create your own reality" is a New Age delusion.




Are TPTB really that powerful? Have kings and oligarchs never been deposed? European history is full of uprisings and pogroms - proof that power systems must crumble given enough time.


The faces change, the Fascism stays the same. "Freedom" has been a footnote in history, surviving for very short periods here and there, across human history. A revolution at this point would replace the abomination we have in Washington with quite possibly something even worse. The American people are no longer governed by God. Read my signature.

[jetgraphics]

[sound bite mode on]
Usury = charging interest
Usury = impossible to pay in a finite money token system
Usurers = bad bad bad

Coincidentally, all religions condemn usury. But only one still categorically forbids it - Islam.

[oldmansmith]

[Obviously, I have heard of Quantum Mechanics (they're my employees ;D ), and, "create your own reality" is a New Age delusion.



No, it is not a "new age" delusion, it is the nature of "reality". If you think that life sucks then it sure as hell does. I don't, and it doesn't for me.

Each of us can alter reality, but collectively we think things suck and hence they do for most of us.

[Bigjon]

[sound bite mode on]
Usury = charging interest
Usury = impossible to pay in a finite money token system
Usurers = bad bad bad

Coincidentally, all religions condemn usury. But only one still categorically forbids it - Islam.



Bullcrap;

finite money token system here;
Assume an island with only two people, one with nothing and one with all the wealth. The wealthy man has various tools, all the land and assets including 100 gold coins which are the only coins on the island.

Suppose the man with nothing makes a deal with the wealthy man in the hopes of bettering himself. He takes a loan from the wealthy man for 100 gold coins with a promise to pay back 110 gold coins in 5 years. Now it might seem to some that the poor man was fooled because the island only has 100 gold coins and to pay back the loan it would seem there needs to exist 110. However there is actually no problem because work itself has value.

Here is how the impossible loan payback happens:

The man uses his 100 coins loan productively to buy land, tools, etc. from the rich man. He works and produces food and other things of value which he sells to the rich man for 23 gold coins a each year. Each year he pays 22 coins toward the loan and keeps 1 himself. The number of coins always remained the same yet in 5 years the man paid off his 110 coin debt and owns land, tools, and 5 gold coins. The rich man has 95 coins plus the items of value the man produced with his work. The poor man's work added value into the closed island system that makes up for the loan interest plus more.

People forget that the coins are only representations and storage of work/value--in the end work is what produces the real value.

The little story is also a good example of how not all debt is bad. Productive debt can be good.

[jetgraphics]

[sound bite mode on]
Usury = charging interest
Usury = impossible to pay in a finite money token system
Usurers = bad bad bad

Coincidentally, all religions condemn usury. But only one still categorically forbids it - Islam.



Bullcrap;

finite money token system here;
Assume an island with only two people, one with nothing and one with all the wealth. The wealthy man has various tools, all the land and assets including 100 gold coins which are the only coins on the island.

Suppose the man with nothing makes a deal with the wealthy man in the hopes of bettering himself. He takes a loan from the wealthy man for 100 gold coins with a promise to pay back 110 gold coins in 5 years. Now it might seem to some that the poor man was fooled because the island only has 100 gold coins and to pay back the loan it would seem there needs to exist 110. However there is actually no problem because work itself has value.

Here is how the impossible loan payback happens:

The man uses his 100 coins loan productively to buy land, tools, etc. from the rich man. He works and produces food and other things of value which he sells to the rich man for 23 gold coins a each year. Each year he pays 22 coins toward the loan and keeps 1 himself. The number of coins always remained the same yet in 5 years the man paid off his 110 coin debt and owns land, tools, and 5 gold coins. The rich man has 95 coins plus the items of value the man produced with his work. The poor man's work added value into the closed island system that makes up for the loan interest plus more.

People forget that the coins are only representations and storage of work/value--in the end work is what produces the real value.

The little story is also a good example of how not all debt is bad. Productive debt can be good.


Your example is not persuasive.
The borrower is really the lender's slave.

Furthermore, with what did the lender use to BUY the goods / services created with the BORROWED funds?

A has 100 coins.
B has none.
A lends B 100 coins.
B "uses" the borrowed 100 coins to "buy" from A.

That makes so much sense.
Did A suddenly become stupid?

He would have to sell his resources for a PROFIT (cost plus).
WHERE'S THE PROFIT?

And then B "sells" to A, at a profit, too.
Retail price = cost of materials + labor + profit
The borrower has to have a profit margin with which he pays the usury... or he goes bust.

We know from the example that the borrower paid 100 coins for all the materials / resources used.

A has his 100 coins back, plus a promise to pay an additional 5 coins.

But the magic elves somehow determined that the lender would graciously buy back these materials with labor added for a sum that conveniently allowed for a profit margin.

Since when does the SELLER dictate the price so conveniently?

Where did the borrower get his food, his clothing, his shelter?
Did he buy it from "A"? The lender?

What if the Lender said, NO, I will not buy your products - but pay up the 5 coins you owe me.

Haven't you heard of the "due on demand" clause in every loan?

[Trip to Bankruptcy court]

------------------------------------

The problem with money madness is the complete disconnect between the "marketplace" (sum total of goods and services) and the money token used to facilitate trade.

"A" already OWNS all the resources - land, tools ... as well as the money.
He uses the illusion of money to compel "B" to work for his benefit, taking a hefty skim.

In a finite money token system, usury creates a demand to have MORE MONEY - regardless of the goods and services in the marketplace.

Do the math. And don't fall for the "velocity of money" excuse.
Most if not all creditor / debtor agreements have a "due on demand" clause. That means the debtor IS on the hook for the whole principal and interest - and not just over time.

Right now, the national debt, in excess of 13 trillions CAN NEVER BE PAID. There isn't enough lawful money in the whole world, nor would the "velocity" redeem our sorry butts (those who are voluntary chattels pledged as a surety).

Usury was and is a scheme to ROB property owners.
All the flung heifer dung won't cover up that fact.
It's been known for over 3500 years.

[Ash_Williams]

But the magic elves somehow determined that the lender would graciously buy back these materials with labor added for a sum that conveniently allowed for a profit margin.

If the lender did not expect to sell whatever he is producing for a profit, he wouldn't have asked for the loan in the first place.

And if the rich man already owns everything, then why is he giving the loan? He could find far easier ways to enslave the poor man, such as a work-for-rent agreement.

[Bigjon]

@jetG


It is true the borrower is the slave to the lender, I believe there is an old proverb to that effect, no argument there.

It is an illustration that money once spent doesn’t just go poof and disappear except from your hands to the seller’s hands. It can return to your hands provided your labor has been fruitful and provided you with saleable goods.

It is also true that the lender can call in his loan, if he wishes to, unless you use a clause in your contract to disallow it. Where I live the lender can’t call in his loan unless he has added a clause to the contract allowing it.

As far as the bible goes (I’m not a bible scholar), I believe there are also passages in the bible that encourage the use of interest in the form of returning seed borrowed plus additional seed (interest).

The robbery that is going on is called fractional reserve banking which charges interest for money created out of thin air, which should be a crime.

It is true that in a usury system there is a demand for money to be used more than once, which is not the same as a demand for more money.

My illustration works do the math and you will see.

[jetgraphics]

As far as the bible goes (I’m not a bible scholar), I believe there are also passages in the bible that encourage the use of interest in the form of returning seed borrowed plus additional seed (interest).

The robbery that is going on is called fractional reserve banking which charges interest for money created out of thin air, which should be a crime.

It is true that in a usury system there is a demand for money to be used more than once, which is not the same as a demand for more money.


Usury is defined as the fee, IN MONEY, for the use of money. If the gain is NOT MONEY, it is not usury.
Repaying more seed for seed loaned, is NOT usury, because living things have "natural increase".
The scam of usurers is to persuade their victims to equate the expectation of "natural increase" applied to a dead thing.

Fractional Reserve banking is but a consequence of usury. Without usury, there would be no fractional reserve banking.

Re-using money is not the problem. The underlying problem is that money (precious metal coin) is a finite and scarce commodity.

No matter when the proportionality is set up, so that the whole set of coins is proportional in value to the marketplace of goods and services, the relationship soon changes. Once that proportionality is changed, it then defeats equitable trade, as well as the function of money - the facilitation of trade.

To illustrate, consider a gold based monetary system, used to trade goods and services over a year. The next year, there is a 10% increase in the number of laborers, output and products. If the prices are fixed, a proportion of sellers / laborers will not be paid, because there isn't enough money. If you deflate prices, that means the more you work or produce, the less you're paid. Though you can buy as much as before, if you're a debtor, you're screwed. The outstanding debt didn't deflate. (Which explains why inflation is the darling of the politician. ... hoping to defer the judgment day till after you're out of office...)

The perils of a hard money system are only exposed once you go past the labor intensive economy. In a mass production / automation based economy, the system cannot maintain equitable trade with only the "velocity of money".
Taint 'nuff of the stuff.

Just consider the plight of a farmer who has a bumper crop. In most cases, his selling price goes DOWN! What kind of system penalizes the productive? A money mad system.

[jetgraphics]

For your information, here's the equation for calculating compound interest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_worth

When I suggest "do the math" I refer to the calculation for future worth. When you run the numbers, you will find that at some point in time, for a given interest rate, the outstanding debt (principle and interest) exceeds the whole set of available money. Beyond that point, usury cannot function. IT IS MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

In practice, a proportion of debtors default, because enough money never existed for all to pay their debts.
That is the abomination of usury at work.
No "velocity of money" can suffice to extinguish all outstanding usury.

[Bigjon]

What you are claiming is mathematically impossible because the total quantity of money in a usury system always includes the interest as a part of the whole total sum. The interest stays in the system, because the lender can always spend it back into the system.

He might not chose to spend it, because he wishes to cause a deflation (bust cycle), but he can always keep the system going if he chooses to do so.

It stinks and I agree that there are better systems.



For your information, here's the equation for calculating compound interest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_worth

When I suggest "do the math" I refer to the calculation for future worth. When you run the numbers, you will find that at some point in time, for a given interest rate, the outstanding debt (principle and interest) exceeds the whole set of available money. Beyond that point, usury cannot function. IT IS MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

In practice, a proportion of debtors default, because enough money never existed for all to pay their debts.
That is the abomination of usury at work.
No "velocity of money" can suffice to extinguish all outstanding usury.

[Bigjon]

As far as the bible goes (I’m not a bible scholar), I believe there are also passages in the bible that encourage the use of interest in the form of returning seed borrowed plus additional seed (interest).

The robbery that is going on is called fractional reserve banking which charges interest for money created out of thin air, which should be a crime.

It is true that in a usury system there is a demand for money to be used more than once, which is not the same as a demand for more money.


Usury is defined as the fee, IN MONEY, for the use of money. If the gain is NOT MONEY, it is not usury.
Repaying more seed for seed loaned, is NOT usury, because living things have "natural increase".
The scam of usurers is to persuade their victims to equate the expectation of "natural increase" applied to a dead thing.

Fractional Reserve banking is but a consequence of usury. Without usury, there would be no fractional reserve banking.

Re-using money is not the problem. The underlying problem is that money (precious metal coin) is a finite and scarce commodity.

No matter when the proportionality is set up, so that the whole set of coins is proportional in value to the marketplace of goods and services, the relationship soon changes. Once that proportionality is changed, it then defeats equitable trade, as well as the function of money - the facilitation of trade.

To illustrate, consider a gold based monetary system, used to trade goods and services over a year. The next year, there is a 10% increase in the number of laborers, output and products. If the prices are fixed, a proportion of sellers / laborers will not be paid, because there isn't enough money. If you deflate prices, that means the more you work or produce, the less you're paid. Though you can buy as much as before, if you're a debtor, you're screwed. The outstanding debt didn't deflate. (Which explains why inflation is the darling of the politician. ... hoping to defer the judgment day till after you're out of office...)

The perils of a hard money system are only exposed once you go past the labor intensive economy. In a mass production / automation based economy, the system cannot maintain equitable trade with only the "velocity of money".
Taint 'nuff of the stuff.

Just consider the plight of a farmer who has a bumper crop. In most cases, his selling price goes DOWN! What kind of system penalizes the productive? A money mad system.


Well splitting hairs with you, during biblical times seeds were used as money.

Iron dug up combined with coal, a forge, some labor, yields a plowshare and viola we have an inanimate thing that produces an increase.

Usually usurer’s become usurer’s because someone begged him to lend him the money he was saving for his old age and you want him to risk his life savings for nothing.

My illustration provides an example of usury in a non-fractional reserve setting. Fractional reserve banking is caused by greed and has nothing to do with interest on money lent.

Your example of the increase in labor is a good one and one of the failings of the gold standard.

Our first system had the people in control and was a tri-metallic system of copper, silver, and gold. I would be glad to use paper tokens issued or spent debt free by the government and kept tied to the GNP.

[jetgraphics]

That is incorrect.
Compound interest cannot be "kept inside" of the total quantity of money, by definition.

Usury always drives up the need for more and more money tokens. And despite classic Economics stating that inflation is the result of too much money chasing too few goods, we are suffering inflation during a money drought.

An illustration of the money drought we currently face is manifest in the collapse of the home mortgage system. The outstanding usury was supported by the collateral value of speculation driven prices. Once those values tanked, there was not enough collateral. And despite lower prices, few folks have the ready cash to buy the bargains.

Because credit was being extended - NOT a loan of money - the whole system relied on collateral value exceeding the value of the debt.
Likewise, the fungibility of the FRN is based on the value of the 300 million "human resources" pledged via FICA.
Since we're losing value, I can see why Congress would like to "legalize" 20 - 40 million "illegal aliens" to fatten the account books.



What you are claiming is mathematically impossible because the total quantity of money in a usury system always includes the interest as a part of the whole total sum. The interest stays in the system, because the lender can always spend it back into the system.

He might not chose to spend it, because he wishes to cause a deflation (bust cycle), but he can always keep the system going if he chooses to do so.

It stinks and I agree that there are better systems.



For your information, here's the equation for calculating compound interest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_worth

When I suggest "do the math" I refer to the calculation for future worth. When you run the numbers, you will find that at some point in time, for a given interest rate, the outstanding debt (principle and interest) exceeds the whole set of available money. Beyond that point, usury cannot function. IT IS MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

In practice, a proportion of debtors default, because enough money never existed for all to pay their debts.
That is the abomination of usury at work.
No "velocity of money" can suffice to extinguish all outstanding usury.

[jetgraphics]

Well splitting hairs with you, during biblical times seeds were used as money.

Iron dug up combined with coal, a forge, some labor, yields a plowshare and viola we have an inanimate thing that produces an increase.

Usually usurer’s become usurer’s because someone begged him to lend him the money he was saving for his old age and you want him to risk his life savings for nothing.

My illustration provides an example of usury in a non-fractional reserve setting. Fractional reserve banking is caused by greed and has nothing to do with interest on money lent.

Your example of the increase in labor is a good one and one of the failings of the gold standard.

Our first system had the people in control and was a tri-metallic system of copper, silver, and gold. I would be glad to use paper tokens issued or spent debt free by the government and kept tied to the GNP.


Money as a medium of exchange and an accounting system is one thing, precious metal coin (scarce and finite) is another.

Restraining our discussion to the AMERICAN monetary system (precious metal coin; gold / silver), usury is not sustainable. If a debtor could create the money, usury would not be an abomination.

Making a tool is not the same as "natural increase".
The concept of natural increase refers to investing in seed, and reaping a harvest, or investing in sheep and reaping lambs.
Money is a dead thing that does not reproduce, and it is unreasonable to apply concepts of "natural increase" to it.

As stated before, usury places a demand on the economy to drive up the need for more money. Without usury, there would be few bankruptcies. However, without money madness, we wouldn't have the need for usurers.

[Quantum]

[Obviously, I have heard of Quantum Mechanics (they're my employees ;D ), and, "create your own reality" is a New Age delusion.



No, it is not a "new age" delusion, it is the nature of "reality". If you think that life sucks then it sure as hell does. I don't, and it doesn't for me.


The Servants of Satan peddle this New Age crap to the masses in an attempt to convince them that if they are in need, it's their fault. If you're poor, it's your fault. If you're sick, it's your fault. Banksters have nothing to do with poverty. Monsanto has nothing to do with mass illness.

They tell those who are down that they're not "envisioning properly" or "not working hard enough."

Christians understand, on the contrary, that if one does good, one is probably going to suffer. This world is a wicked place, and while one may attain internal happiness in the face of terror through faith in the true One, the popular perception of material "success" means one is conforming to this world. For most people, cash always trumps Christ, regardless of the lip-service paid on Sunday.




Each of us can alter reality, but collectively we think things suck and hence they do for most of us.


We can alter reality on the micro level, and only in variables over which we have control. The sea of evil that is carrying the world is nothing we can overcome with wishful thinking.

[Quantum]

Bullcrap;

finite money token system here;
Assume an island with only two people, one with nothing and one with all the wealth. The wealthy man has various tools, all the land and assets including 100 gold coins which are the only coins on the island.

Suppose the man with nothing makes a deal with the wealthy man in the hopes of bettering himself. He takes a loan from the wealthy man for 100 gold coins with a promise to pay back 110 gold coins in 5 years. Now it might seem to some that the poor man was fooled because the island only has 100 gold coins and to pay back the loan it would seem there needs to exist 110. However there is actually no problem because work itself has value.

Here is how the impossible loan payback happens:

The man uses his 100 coins loan productively to buy land, tools, etc. from the rich man. He works and produces food and other things of value which he sells to the rich man for 23 gold coins a each year. Each year he pays 22 coins toward the loan and keeps 1 himself. The number of coins always remained the same yet in 5 years the man paid off his 110 coin debt and owns land, tools, and 5 gold coins. The rich man has 95 coins plus the items of value the man produced with his work. The poor man's work added value into the closed island system that makes up for the loan interest plus more.

People forget that the coins are only representations and storage of work/value--in the end work is what produces the real value.

The little story is also a good example of how not all debt is bad. Productive debt can be good.




Unless the poor man finds gold, he can never entirely repay the loan. It's not hard to understand. Really.

[Bigjon]

What you are claiming is mathematically impossible because the total quantity of money in a usury system always includes the interest as a part of the whole total sum. The interest stays in the system, because the lender can always spend it back into the system.

He might not chose to spend it, because he wishes to cause a deflation (bust cycle), but he can always keep the system going if he chooses to do so.

It stinks and I agree that there are better systems.



For your information, here's the equation for calculating compound interest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_worth

When I suggest "do the math" I refer to the calculation for future worth. When you run the numbers, you will find that at some point in time, for a given interest rate, the outstanding debt (principle and interest) exceeds the whole set of available money. Beyond that point, usury cannot function. IT IS MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

In practice, a proportion of debtors default, because enough money never existed for all to pay their debts.
That is the abomination of usury at work.
No "velocity of money" can suffice to extinguish all outstanding usury.



OK then, we are talking about stupid bankers here. This banker doesn’t know where to place the limit on his loan value time.

Luckily even stupid bankers can read a mortgage table and set the terms within the ability of the borrower to repay the loan.

If you want to create an illustration about the world where nothing works, you are doing a great job.

[Bigjon]

Well splitting hairs with you, during biblical times seeds were used as money.

Iron dug up combined with coal, a forge, some labor, yields a plowshare and viola we have an inanimate thing that produces an increase.

Usually usurer’s become usurer’s because someone begged him to lend him the money he was saving for his old age and you want him to risk his life savings for nothing.

My illustration provides an example of usury in a non-fractional reserve setting. Fractional reserve banking is caused by greed and has nothing to do with interest on money lent.

Your example of the increase in labor is a good one and one of the failings of the gold standard.

Our first system had the people in control and was a tri-metallic system of copper, silver, and gold. I would be glad to use paper tokens issued or spent debt free by the government and kept tied to the GNP.


Money as a medium of exchange and an accounting system is one thing, precious metal coin (scarce and finite) is another.

Restraining our discussion to the AMERICAN monetary system (precious metal coin; gold / silver), usury is not sustainable. If a debtor could create the money, usury would not be an abomination.

Making a tool is not the same as "natural increase".
The concept of natural increase refers to investing in seed, and reaping a harvest, or investing in sheep and reaping lambs.
Money is a dead thing that does not reproduce, and it is unreasonable to apply concepts of "natural increase" to it.

As stated before, usury places a demand on the economy to drive up the need for more money. Without usury, there would be few bankruptcies. However, without money madness, we wouldn't have the need for usurers.



Since everybody is used to paper money I see no reason why the government shouldn’t issue or spend paper money for the communal good roads, bridges, etc.

You keep repeating this there is no velocity of money thing when it is patently obvious that money is spent over and over again.

In order for your need for an increase in the amount of money, you have to have money that can only be spent one time, which is just plain wrong.

[silver solution]

There is no "mass awakening."

There would be a mass awakening if the people:

1) turned off the TV...forever.

2) stopped voting...and canceled their voter registration.


HOWEVER...

Talmudvision viewership remains morbidly high, and subscription to cable and satellite TV service is higher than ever.

Tens of millions of imbeciles continue to vote...and support "patriotic" and/or "pro-constitution" candidates.



"The Powers that Be" are NOT afraid of us. They know at least 90% of the masses will continue to be befuddled and impotent.

"The Powers that Be" know that they will come close to Total Victory. They know that the vast majority of humanity will EMBRACE a "New World Order," and take the Mark of the Beast, the evil grand finale in worship of government. They know that God's Words to us in Revelation even admit all this will come to pass. "The Powers that Be" simply disagree that Christ will win in the end. They believe that they, and their boss, the Devil, will win, instead.

You will have two choices in the foreseeable future:

1) you will embrace the New World Order, and take the Mark of the Beast (a universal identifier).

OR

2) you will resist, and DIE (like I have chosen - I will never betray God).

There will be no fantasy third option.



If you resist Gods way you will never die. If you resist you wil win Bible says so.


Malachi
4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in The Day that I shall do [this], saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts.
4:4 Remember ye and return to The Law of Moses My servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, [with] the Statutes and Judgments.
4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the Prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful Day of the "I AM":
4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

[Silver Rocket Bitches!]

[Obviously, I have heard of Quantum Mechanics (they're my employees ;D ), and, "create your own reality" is a New Age delusion.



No, it is not a "new age" delusion, it is the nature of "reality". If you think that life sucks then it sure as hell does. I don't, and it doesn't for me.


The Servants of Satan peddle this New Age crap to the masses in an attempt to convince them that if they are in need, it's their fault. If you're poor, it's your fault. If you're sick, it's your fault. Banksters have nothing to do with poverty. Monsanto has nothing to do with mass illness.

They tell those who are down that they're not "envisioning properly" or "not working hard enough."

Christians understand, on the contrary, that if one does good, one is probably going to suffer. This world is a wicked place, and while one may attain internal happiness in the face of terror through faith in the true One, the popular perception of material "success" means one is conforming to this world. For most people, cash always trumps Christ, regardless of the lip-service paid on Sunday.




Each of us can alter reality, but collectively we think things suck and hence they do for most of us.


We can alter reality on the micro level, and only in variables over which we have control. The sea of evil that is carrying the world is nothing we can overcome with wishful thinking.


Much like the book The Secret which purports that all one must do to attain wealth or happiness is envision these things.

This totally ignores the collusional nature of those in charge and denies the diabolical reality of the situation we find ourselves in.

What good is it to envision happiness if you are being shackled? Is a slave really in control of his own destiny because he believes he is not a slave?

The most we can do at this point, this cusp of a 300 year plan coming to fruition, is to become aware and take steps to remove ourselves from the conditioning and go against the grain of the matrix we are stuck in, like it or not.

[oldmansmith]

Really, both sides in this debate are true. TPTB have incredible power and through mind control (TV primarily) can make the sheeple do what they want. But each person certainly can influence their own realiy to a degree (I think large, you think small), and enough together can change everything.

[TPTB]

Excellent discussion gentlemen, and I'm inclined to agree with...




everyone.

[7th trump]

There is no "mass awakening."

There would be a mass awakening if the people:

1) turned off the TV...forever.

2) stopped voting...and canceled their voter registration.


HOWEVER...

Talmudvision viewership remains morbidly high, and subscription to cable and satellite TV service is higher than ever.

Tens of millions of imbeciles continue to vote...and support "patriotic" and/or "pro-constitution" candidates.



"The Powers that Be" are NOT afraid of us. They know at least 90% of the masses will continue to be befuddled and impotent.

"The Powers that Be" know that they will come close to Total Victory. They know that the vast majority of humanity will EMBRACE a "New World Order," and take the Mark of the Beast, the evil grand finale in worship of government. They know that God's Words to us in Revelation even admit all this will come to pass. "The Powers that Be" simply disagree that Christ will win in the end. They believe that they, and their boss, the Devil, will win, instead.

You will have two choices in the foreseeable future:

1) you will embrace the New World Order, and take the Mark of the Beast (a universal identifier).

OR

2) you will resist, and DIE (like I have chosen - I will never betray God).

There will be no fantasy third option.


Really?????
I see an awakening every freaken day. Standing in a checkout lane the other day a guy I never seen before sees me reading a headline on a newspaper. He strikes up a conversation with me and by the time I pull out the wallet we have already discussed that the financial problems were implimented and the government was looking the other way by removing certain legislation to allow the banks to get away with what they did.
Nobod else in the line refuted it and as loud as the guy was talking everyone in our checkout and those next to us could plainly hear the conversation. The look on their faces was "you hit the nail on the head".

More and more people that I know who would normally not give a rats ass are now giving a rats ass about BP, wallstreet, increased taxes, jobs going over seas, and getting out of debt.
I was in a local discount grocery store and you would have thought it was the mall in the uppity side of town seeing how it was obvious that most of these people wouldnt dare go into a store in a bad part of town dressed the way they were and what they were driving. They looked humbled thats for sure!
The ones not waking up are 25 and younger who havent yet been out on their own.

Ohh..... and around here in this midwest town you ought to see the gardens going in this year.
I've seen three houses now in uppeer class neighborhoods with black top soil by the dump truck load in the drive way with garden plots being made in the back yard.
People are starting to look into the future and see a garden instead of a pool or spacious deck is a good investment.
The farmers markets are buzzing big time around here and the local grocery chain doesnt like it.

[Ash_Williams]

Without usury, there would be few bankruptcies.

Well yeah, because no one would be making loans.

What is usury anyway? Simply interest?
The problem for me is that, mathematically, I can make a loan look like a lease. I can make that lease look like a pure rental. The only difference is outside of the numbers (who holds the ownership of whatever is in question.)

Is someone renting a car being the victim of usury? What if they lease it? What if they take a loan to purchase it. If the end result can be exactly the same, then where is the line drawn?

Even a house. I could sell you a house where you have a mortgage payment to me of $1000 a month at 4%. Or how about I rent you the house for $1000 a month and in 20 years I'll sell it to you for another $1000?

Islamic banking tries to pull the stunt of wordplay, where an investment or loan or bond is sold under a different name and interest is not mentioned, but the end result is exactly the same as if you went to another bank and took a loan or purchased an interest-bearing investment.

What if I take a loan from someone, for $1000. They don't charge interest but in exchange I have paint their garage door. That can't be bad, right?

Or I take a loan from someone else, who charges $100 interest on it, so I go paint someone else's door for $100. I guess that's bad.

How about I take the loan from the first guy, who has a deal with another guy, so that I get $1000 with no interest, and paint another guy's garage door for free (not knowing what deal those two have)? Good or bad?

[jetgraphics]

Since everybody is used to paper money I see no reason why the government shouldn’t issue or spend paper money for the communal good roads, bridges, etc.

You keep repeating this there is no velocity of money thing when it is patently obvious that money is spent over and over again.

In order for your need for an increase in the amount of money, you have to have money that can only be spent one time, which is just plain wrong.

A. Being accustomed to a form of madness, is not reason to continue it.
B. I have never said there was no velocity of money.
C. I have said that the velocity of money does not pay usury. It merely ameliorates the impact, so that a smaller proportion defaults. But defaults and bankruptcies follow usury, as the night follows day.
D. Money is an abstraction, a medium of exchange, and an accounting system, whose function is to facilitate TRADE of the goods and services (surplus) in the marketplace. Unfortunately, generations have been indoctrinated into believing in money madness - that money has a value INDEPENDENT of the marketplace.

Using the "Gilligan's Island" model - having millions of money tokens without anything to buy makes the money WORTHLESS.

However, a marketplace can function without money - just not as efficiently.

Government defined "lawful money", being made from scarce precious metal, can never maintain proportionality with a marketplace that is capable of multiplying labor via mass production.

Furthermore, socialist government is a consumer, not a producer, of goods and services. If you carefully read the USCON, you will learn that Congress has NO POWER to make money. It has the power to COIN money (stamp bullion). It has no power to create bullion. And Congress has the power to BORROW money on the credit of the U.S.

If a paper money is a certificate, it's a receipt for MONEY in the vault.
If a paper money is a note, it's a debt instrument, promising to pay MONEY in the future. Notes are never "backed" because if the money was in the vault, it would be a certificate.

I am an advocate of a multi tiered money system:
&#91;] Lawful money (not subject to transaction taxes / retail sales taxes)
&#91;] Silver dollars
&#91;] Gold eagles (no fixed ratio to dollars - market determines it)
&#91;] Debt-credit
&#91;] Federal Reserve notes (subject to excise taxation for the privilege to use worthless notes, as well as "income" taxation)
&#91;] Private promissory notes (i.e, coupons, denominated in labor or goods)
(*Counterfeit fraction coin should be swiftly taxed out of circulation)

In time, the monetary system would consist of lawful money (coin) and private notes - which expand and contract with the marketplace.

[jetgraphics]

Without usury, there would be few bankruptcies.

Well yeah, because no one would be making loans.

Do not assume that banning usury means no return on investment.
It only bars a return denominated in money, for the investment of money.

To illustrate, if one invests in a restaurant, the return on investment can be coupons denominated in meals or other services. Since the return is not constrained by the finite supply of money tokens, it is reasonable.

If the investment is "sound", the restauranteur will take raw materials, and produce a final product that should be more valuable than the input ingredients, etc. Those coupons will be redeemable - or traded / sold for other mediums of exchange or for other goods and services in the community. In short, a private promissory note economy will not suffer from a shortage of money.

[Bigjon]

@Jetg
C. I have said that the velocity of money does not pay usury. It merely ameliorates the impact, so that a smaller proportion defaults. But defaults and bankruptcies follow usury, as the night follows day.


I think you have the cart before the horse again.

Loans go bad, you make a loan and the guy breaks his leg (many more examples) and doesn't pay back the loan. That is just one reason to charge interest.

My illustration shows that the velocity of money (same money spent more than one time) pays the loan and the interest.

[7th trump]

@Jetg
C. I have said that the velocity of money does not pay usury. It merely ameliorates the impact, so that a smaller proportion defaults. But defaults and bankruptcies follow usury, as the night follows day.


I think you have the cart before the horse again.

Loans go bad, you make a loan and the guy breaks his leg (many more examples) and doesn't pay back the loan. That is just one reason to charge interest.

My illustration shows that the velocity of money (same money spent more than one time) pays the loan and the interest.

Interest is a crime.......................biblically!
Having a broken leg doesnt mean the person cannot pay back the loan at a later date.
The lender is not out of any money for waiting for the leg to heal.
If the lender charges interest for an unforeseen broken leg.........................fine the lender for inplimenting usery.

[gunDriller]

Are TPTB really that powerful? Have kings and oligarchs never been deposed? European history is full of uprisings and pogroms - proof that power systems must crumble given enough time.


To answer the two questions and the statement, yes, yes, and in almost every instance it is verifiable that the jew was at the root of these uprisings/revolutions/governmental collapses.


true.

in some quarters, it's an un-popular truth, but that doesn't mean it's less true.

[Bigjon]

Who cares what some book the Jews wrote says?

It also says that interest should be paid.

I’m not concerned with the morality of paying interest my only concern is this premise that the interest can’t be paid within the bounds of the amount of money lent. All loans only are for the amount of the loan and the interest portion stays in the economy along with the unpaid principal. The lender keeps the interest portion in the economy by spending the interest that the borrower pays him.

You want to talk about the morality and I want to talk about money mechanics.






@Jetg
C. I have said that the velocity of money does not pay usury. It merely ameliorates the impact, so that a smaller proportion defaults. But defaults and bankruptcies follow usury, as the night follows day.


I think you have the cart before the horse again.

Loans go bad, you make a loan and the guy breaks his leg (many more examples) and doesn't pay back the loan. That is just one reason to charge interest.

My illustration shows that the velocity of money (same money spent more than one time) pays the loan and the interest.

Interest is a crime.......................biblically!
Having a broken leg doesnt mean the person cannot pay back the loan at a later date.
The lender is not out of any money for waiting for the leg to heal.
If the lender charges interest for an unforeseen broken leg.........................fine the lender for inplimenting usery.

[7th trump]

Who cares what some book the Jews wrote says?

It also says that interest should be paid.

I’m not concerned with the morality of paying interest my only concern is this premise that the interest can’t be paid within the bounds of the amount of money lent. All loans only are for the amount of the loan and the interest portion stays in the economy along with the unpaid principal. The lender keeps the interest portion in the economy by spending the interest that the borrower pays him.

You want to talk about the morality and I want to talk about money mechanics.






@Jetg
C. I have said that the velocity of money does not pay usury. It merely ameliorates the impact, so that a smaller proportion defaults. But defaults and bankruptcies follow usury, as the night follows day.


I think you have the cart before the horse again.

Loans go bad, you make a loan and the guy breaks his leg (many more examples) and doesn't pay back the loan. That is just one reason to charge interest.

My illustration shows that the velocity of money (same money spent more than one time) pays the loan and the interest.

Interest is a crime.......................biblically!
Having a broken leg doesnt mean the person cannot pay back the loan at a later date.
The lender is not out of any money for waiting for the leg to heal.
If the lender charges interest for an unforeseen broken leg.........................fine the lender for inplimenting usery.



Hahaha..

You want to talk about the morality and I want to talk about money mechanics.
Why talk about money mechanics when its going to be thrown into the firey pit because of its morality?
(you are part of the problematic system)
This money mechanics "system" or "beast" is going into the firey pit and its never coming back!

And no God doesnt impliment usery at all.

[Ash_Williams]

Do not assume that banning usury means no return on investment.
It only bars a return denominated in money, for the investment of money.

To illustrate, if one invests in a restaurant, the return on investment can be coupons denominated in meals or other services. Since the return is not constrained by the finite supply of money tokens, it is reasonable.

If the investment is "sound", the restauranteur will take raw materials, and produce a final product that should be more valuable than the input ingredients, etc. Those coupons will be redeemable - or traded / sold for other mediums of exchange or for other goods and services in the community. In short, a private promissory note economy will not suffer from a shortage of money.

That's what I was trying to get at with my garage door example.

Let's say I'm a homeowner that doesn't know how to do plumbing. I have a lot of cash though. Russ wants to open a restaurant so he borrows $100,000 from me for a year.
My pipes break in the house and there's water everywhere, now I need the services of a plumber, its a $5000 job as quoted by plumber Phil.

This could all go down a few ways. The most obvious way, is that I'm charging Russ $5000 a year interest on that loan. I simply pay Phil $5000 in an unrelated transaction.

Or the no interest way: I get $5000 in coupons from Russ's restaurant. I pay Phil $5000 in an unrelated transaction.

Now, if I understand correctly, you are saying the first way is bad because there is interest, while the second way is fine.

What if Phil wants to eat a lot at Russ's restaurant? The first way, he takes my $5000 and spends it there. The second way, we could make a deal where I just pass along the coupon to Phil.

Is either of those scenarios bad? The end result is exactly the same, interest or no interest.

[Awoke]

Brzezinski Decries “Global Political Awakening” During CFR Speech

Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet.com
Wednesday, May 19, 2010



At a recent Council on Foreign Relations speech in Montreal, co-founder with David Rockefeller of the Trilateral Commission and regular Bilderberg attendee Zbigniew Brzezinski warned that a “global political awakening,” in combination with infighting amongst the elite, was threatening to derail the move towards a one world government.

Brzezinski explained that global political leadership had become “much more diversified unlike what it was until relatively recently,” noting the rise of China as a geopolitical power, and that global leadership in the context of the G20 was “lacking internal unity with many of its members in bilateral antagonisms.”

In other words, the global elite is infighting amongst itself and this is hampering efforts to rescue the agenda for global government, which seems to be failing on almost every front.

Brzezinski then explained another significant factor in that, “For the first time in all of human history mankind is politically awakened – that’s a total new reality – it has not been so for most of human history.”

Watch the clip.



Brzezinski continued, “The whole world has become politically awakened,” adding that all over the world people were aware of what was happening politically and were “consciously aware of global inequities, inequalities, lack of respect, exploitation.”

“Mankind is now politically awakened and stirring,” said Brzezinski, adding that this in combination with a fractured elite “makes it a much more difficult context for any major power, including currently the leading world power, the United States.”

A d v e r t i s e m e n t
During a subsequent question and answer session, Brzezinski was asked if he thought another organization should replace the United Nations as the de facto “one world government,” to which Brzezinski responded, “There should be such an organization,” before pointing out that the UN was not it in its current role.

As the text at the end of the video makes clear, Brzezinski’s admission that humanity has undergone a political awakening is not a positive development in the eyes of the elite.

In his 1970 book Between Two Ages: America’s Role in the Technetronic Era, Brzezinski wrote the following.

“The technetronic era involves the gradual appearance of a more controlled society. Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values. Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen and maintain up-to-date complete files containing even the most personal information about the citizen. These files will be subject to instantaneous retrieval by the authorities.”

The “elite” to which Brzezinski refers included many of those who were in attendance for his speech at the CFR meeting. The global political awakening which Brzezinski discussed represents part of the resistance to that very elite dominated society and the systems of control, subjugation and surveillance that they have imposed upon the human race in pursuit of a “more controlled society” and a one world government.



http://www.infowars.com/brzezinski-decries-global-political-awakening-during-cfr-speech/

[Ash_Williams]

Brzezinski Decries “Global Political Awakening” During CFR Speech

If they say they're worried about it, then they have already decided what this Global Awakening will look like and what people should believe after they think they've woken up.

[jetgraphics]

@Jetg
C. I have said that the velocity of money does not pay usury. It merely ameliorates the impact, so that a smaller proportion defaults. But defaults and bankruptcies follow usury, as the night follows day.


I think you have the cart before the horse again.

Loans go bad, you make a loan and the guy breaks his leg (many more examples) and doesn't pay back the loan. That is just one reason to charge interest.

My illustration shows that the velocity of money (same money spent more than one time) pays the loan and the interest.

Your illustration does not show that velocity of money pays the loan and interest. It relies upon assumptions and conditions in order to
"prove" your point. But those assumptions and conditions would not occur, in reality.

The default of a proportion of debtors is the consequence of usury. The aggregate usury imposes a need for more money than what already exists. No matter how fast the money flies (like the current situation where banksters sold off mortgages to other investors, ASAP), there comes a point when the aggregate debt collapses the economy. Then a flurry of property transfers occur, as the losers are skinned alive by the winners, and the system is reset.

Usurers have the arrogance to demand our gratitude that they allow us to regrow our skin before they skin us again.

For what it's worth - not only does the Bible denounce usury, all religions (that I checked*) denounce usury. So do many ancient philosophers, like Aristotle.

(* [Humor flag on] - one post, in which I excepted "Satanism", was answered by one self-proclaimed Satanist, retorting that usury WAS condemned by Satanism. Which means that even Lucifer can't abide usurers. So where DO they wind up, if Heaven and Hell won't take them?)

[Bigjon]

@Jetg
C. I have said that the velocity of money does not pay usury. It merely ameliorates the impact, so that a smaller proportion defaults. But defaults and bankruptcies follow usury, as the night follows day.


I think you have the cart before the horse again.

Loans go bad, you make a loan and the guy breaks his leg (many more examples) and doesn't pay back the loan. That is just one reason to charge interest.

My illustration shows that the velocity of money (same money spent more than one time) pays the loan and the interest.

Your illustration does not show that velocity of money pays the loan and interest. It relies upon assumptions and conditions in order to
"prove" your point. But those assumptions and conditions would not occur, in reality.

The default of a proportion of debtors is the consequence of usury. The aggregate usury imposes a need for more money than what already exists. No matter how fast the money flies (like the current situation where banksters sold off mortgages to other investors, ASAP), there comes a point when the aggregate debt collapses the economy. Then a flurry of property transfers occur, as the losers are skinned alive by the winners, and the system is reset.

Usurers have the arrogance to demand our gratitude that they allow us to regrow our skin before they skin us again.

For what it's worth - not only does the Bible denounce usury, all religions (that I checked*) denounce usury. So do many ancient philosophers, like Aristotle.

(* [Humor flag on] - one post, in which I excepted "Satanism", was answered by one self-proclaimed Satanist, retorting that usury WAS condemned by Satanism. Which means that even Lucifer can't abide usurers. So where DO they wind up, if Heaven and Hell won't take them?)


You are really hung up on this very simple concept. If you don’t like to pay interest find someone who will loan you money for nothing or don’t borrow money.

There is one persuasive piece of propaganda that interest comes from money outside of the loan, very few understand the ability of banks to pay the interest on a loan within the bounds of the money lent.

It is real simple and it is in the way the loan repayment is structured. When you make your payments the banker takes his interest and spends it back into a pool of money called the economy. It is now available for you to re-earn with your labor over the next time period until your loan payment is due.

Step two make your payment to the banker he takes his cut (interest) and spends it back into the economy, where it is available for you to re-earn over the next time period until your loan payment is due.

Step three make your payment to the banker he takes his cut (interest) and spends it back into the economy, where it is available for you to re-earn over the next time period until your loan payment is due.

Step four make your payment to the banker he takes his cut (interest) and spends it back into the economy, where it is available for you to re-earn over the next time period until your loan payment is due.

Keep repeating these steps until loan is paid.

You are the bankers slave.

Nobody held a gun to your head and forced you to take out the loan

In our system the banker is not legally obligated to spend the interest back into the economy and banks have withheld their spending to create a deflation.

[Ash_Williams]

The default of a proportion of debtors is the consequence of usury. The aggregate usury imposes a need for more money than what already exists. No matter how fast the money flies (like the current situation where banksters sold off mortgages to other investors, ASAP), there comes a point when the aggregate debt collapses the economy. Then a flurry of property transfers occur, as the losers are skinned alive by the winners, and the system is reset.

So... how much are you gonna loan me at 0%?

Without something in return, why would anyone make a loan (other than to a family member perhaps)?

And anything in return, that has tangible value (so anything other than a smile) works out the same mathematically as interest.

[jetgraphics]

You are really hung up on this very simple concept. If you don’t like to pay interest find someone who will loan you money for nothing or don’t borrow money.

There is one persuasive piece of propaganda that interest comes from money outside of the loan, very few understand the ability of banks to pay the interest on a loan within the bounds of the money lent.

It is real simple and it is in the way the loan repayment is structured. When you make your payments the banker takes his interest and spends it back into a pool of money called the economy. It is now available for you to re-earn with your labor over the next time period until your loan payment is due.

Step two make your payment to the banker he takes his cut (interest) and spends it back into the economy, where it is available for you to re-earn over the next time period until your loan payment is due.

Step three make your payment to the banker he takes his cut (interest) and spends it back into the economy, where it is available for you to re-earn over the next time period until your loan payment is due.

Step four make your payment to the banker he takes his cut (interest) and spends it back into the economy, where it is available for you to re-earn over the next time period until your loan payment is due.

Keep repeating these steps until loan is paid.

You are the bankers slave.

Nobody held a gun to your head and forced you to take out the loan

In our system the banker is not legally obligated to spend the interest back into the economy and banks have withheld their spending to create a deflation.


Your "steps" only work if you fail to include ALL (aggregate) usury. Your choice to be blind to usury is your choice. But I doubt you will ever find a time in history where ALL debtors could repay the usury owed.

A single contract for usury isn't the problem. It is the aggregate usury that is the problem. Since interest is calculated with an
exponential equation, no matter what the interest rate is, there is always some amount of time that the principal and interest can
exceed the entire sum of money in existence.

Here's a parable to illustrate:

Imagine a friendly poker game where each player gets 100 chips from the host. But the host requests that you pay him 101 chips at the end of the night, in gratitude for using his chips. And if you fail, you pledge something of value for default. As the night wears on, some win, some lose. The winners can pay, and depart. But the folks who lost cannot pay interest (the usury) nor even repay the original capital. Each defaulter then forfeits his property in lieu of the 101 chips (principal and interest). And worse, he blames himself for his failures instead of the real culprit - usury!

Since the host knows that there is only a fixed amount of chips, the requirement to pay usury is impossible for all players. A portion
shall always default.

Usurers always require a pledge of property before they loan. But since usury is unpayable by ALL debtors, a proportion shall default,
simply because there is not enough money in existence. That is why usury is despicable, it is impossible to pay, in a finite money
system.

The winners in the poker game, see nothing amiss with usury. But that does not exonerate the usurers.

[Saul Mine]

Velocity of money is not a concept that exists in reality. It falls out of the arithmetic for economics, not because it describes anything real but because one of the equations happens to resemble the equation for velocity. In reality when you spend some money it goes into a cash drawer and sits there until it is delivered to a bank at the end of the day. So the velocity of money, such as it is, is fairly constant in all conditions.

[Bigjon]

Velocity of money is not a concept that exists in reality. It falls out of the arithmetic for economics, not because it describes anything real but because one of the equations happens to resemble the equation for velocity. In reality when you spend some money it goes into a cash drawer and sits there until it is delivered to a bank at the end of the day. So the velocity of money, such as it is, is fairly constant in all conditions.


So when the bank receives it they must burn it according to the way you think.

I think they are like most of us, when we get money we spend it. The bank spends their profit and the money is used again. How do you think those banknotes get so worn and thin?

[Hatha Sunahara]

This is from The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism by Emmanuel Goldstein, the Book inside Orwell's 1984. I think it is still relevant:


Ignorance is Strength


Throughout recorded time, and probably since the end of the Neolithic Age, there have been three kinds of people in the world, the High, the Middle, and the Low. They have been subdivided in many ways, they have borne countless different names, and their relative numbers, as well as their attitude towards one another, have varied from age to age: but the essential structure of society has never altered. Even after enormous upheavals and seemingly irrevocable changes, the same pattern has always reasserted itself, just as a gyroscope will always return to equilibrium, however far it is pushed one way or the other.

The aims of these three groups are entirely irreconcilable. The aim of the High is to remain where they are. The aim of the Middle is to change places with the High. The aim of the Low, when they have an aim -- for it is an abiding characteristic of the Low that they are too much crushed by drudgery to be more than intermittently conscious of anything outside their daily lives -- is to abolish all distinctions and create a society in which all men shall be equal. Thus throughout history a struggle which is the same in its main outlines recurs over and over again. For long periods the High seem to be securely in power, but sooner or later there always comes a moment when they lose either their belief in themselves or their capacity to govern efficiently, or both. They are then overthrown by the Middle, who enlist the Low on their side by pretending to them that they are fighting for liberty and justice. As soon as they have reached their objective, the Middle thrust the Low back into their old position of servitude, and themselves become the High. Presently a new Middle group splits off from one of the other groups, or from both of them, and the struggle begins over again. Of the three groups, only the Low are never even temporarily successful in achieving their aims. It would be an exaggeration to say that throughout history there has been no progress of a material kind. Even today, in a period of decline, the average human being is physically better off than he was a few centuries ago. But no advance in wealth, no softening of manners, no reform or revolution has ever brought human equality a millimetre nearer. From the point of view of the Low, no historic change has ever meant much more than a change in the name of their masters

http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/go-goldstein.html

The people may change, but the system will be there because that is how people think of their hierarchy.

Hatha

[Bigjon]

You are really hung up on this very simple concept. If you don’t like to pay interest find someone who will loan you money for nothing or don’t borrow money.

There is one persuasive piece of propaganda that interest comes from money outside of the loan, very few understand the ability of banks to pay the interest on a loan within the bounds of the money lent.

It is real simple and it is in the way the loan repayment is structured. When you make your payments the banker takes his interest and spends it back into a pool of money called the economy. It is now available for you to re-earn with your labor over the next time period until your loan payment is due.

Step two make your payment to the banker he takes his cut (interest) and spends it back into the economy, where it is available for you to re-earn over the next time period until your loan payment is due.

Step three make your payment to the banker he takes his cut (interest) and spends it back into the economy, where it is available for you to re-earn over the next time period until your loan payment is due.

Step four make your payment to the banker he takes his cut (interest) and spends it back into the economy, where it is available for you to re-earn over the next time period until your loan payment is due.

Keep repeating these steps until loan is paid.

You are the bankers slave.

Nobody held a gun to your head and forced you to take out the loan

In our system the banker is not legally obligated to spend the interest back into the economy and banks have withheld their spending to create a deflation.


Your "steps" only work if you fail to include ALL (aggregate) usury. Your choice to be blind to usury is your choice. But I doubt you will ever find a time in history where ALL debtors could repay the usury owed.

A single contract for usury isn't the problem. It is the aggregate usury that is the problem. Since interest is calculated with an
exponential equation, no matter what the interest rate is, there is always some amount of time that the principal and interest can
exceed the entire sum of money in existence.

Here's a parable to illustrate:

Imagine a friendly poker game where each player gets 100 chips from the host. But the host requests that you pay him 101 chips at the end of the night, in gratitude for using his chips. And if you fail, you pledge something of value for default. As the night wears on, some win, some lose. The winners can pay, and depart. But the folks who lost cannot pay interest (the usury) nor even repay the original capital. Each defaulter then forfeits his property in lieu of the 101 chips (principal and interest). And worse, he blames himself for his failures instead of the real culprit - usury!

Since the host knows that there is only a fixed amount of chips, the requirement to pay usury is impossible for all players. A portion
shall always default.

Usurers always require a pledge of property before they loan. But since usury is unpayable by ALL debtors, a proportion shall default,
simply because there is not enough money in existence. That is why usury is despicable, it is impossible to pay, in a finite money
system.

The winners in the poker game, see nothing amiss with usury. But that does not exonerate the usurers.


YOU can always design a system that doesn’t work, that is easy.

However, in the system the bankers use, the interest can always be repaid. If all debtors were to repay their entire loans principal the only interest due would be for the last time interval since the previous payment. You are making the mistake of projecting something that might be true, as being true. This aggregate amount is for the entire loan period, but it is always payable before the term is up, unless you have agreed to terms that deny early repayment.

You only pay for the time that you use the balance of the loan.

Your premise that my example fails when there are multiple loans is wrong. Actually one loan is the worst case example in the availability of money. With multiple loans each containing the interest payments due, by virtue of the banker spending the money back into the pool of money we call the economy, we get much more money available. This is what we see in real life this excess of money creates inflation.

If what you say were true that interest causes a shortage of money we would see money rising in value.

Your example is a joke, I hope. I wouldn’t take this loan.

[uranian]

struck me as on topic:

Freeway speed cameras to be turned off this week (http://www.azfamily.com/outbound-feeds/yahoo-news/Freeway-speed-cameras-to-be-turned-off-this-week-98237994.html)


PHOENIX -- Dozens of photo-enforcement cameras on freeways throughout the state are coming down this week.

A total of 76 cameras will cease operation on Thursday.

The photo-enforcement program, which was meant to catch speeders on Arizona's freeways, has been controversial from the beginning. The cameras first went up nearly two years ago.

While the cameras have done a good job at snapping speeders, drivers have been ignoring the tickets.

According to the Department of Public Safety, the cameras led to more than 700,000 tickets in the first year of operation. Many of those people, however, never paid the fines.

The speeding tickets should have generated about $90 million in the first year of the program. About one-third of that was actually collected.

Gov. Jan Brewer, who has always been critical of the program, decided earlier this year not to renew Arizona's contract with Redflex Traffic Systems, the company that runs the cameras.

Opponents of the cameras were thrilled with that decision. They called the cameras a distraction that actually caused wrecks. They also said the cameras were a violation of people's constitutional rights.

[jetgraphics]

This is what we see in real life this excess of money creates inflation.
If what you say were true that interest causes a shortage of money we would see money rising in value.

Your claim: there is an EXCESS of money, and it is creating INFLATION.
My rebuttal: There is no excess of money. Where is that excess, and who's bidding up the price on everything? It isn't Bill Gates, or other Plutocrats. Who has all that paper money? Where is it?

Your rebuttal is that a shortage of money would cause DEFLATION.
My claim: Under classic economics, that should happen. But we all can see that the opposite has occurred. We have a money drought (exacerbated by a credit drought) AND we have ever rising prices.

{Based on 1910 wholesale price index, there's been a loss of 99% of the relative buying power of the paper money, disregarding the legal versus lawful tender aspect. I suspect that the drop is even greater. Under a "hard money" system, the ratio would be roughly 4400:1. 4400 frns = 1 silver dollar.}

My proofs:
With respect to lawful money, Fort Knox Depository has approx. 147.4 million ounces of gold. Pursuant to the Coinage Act of 1793, and before the declaration of bankruptcy in 1933, one ounce of gold was equivalent to 20 U.S. dollars *(silver).
Therefore, Fort Knox holds approximately 2.9 billion dollars worth of bullion. (Current prices, though denominated in dollars, are actually in "dollar bills" - no par value - and are not of any use)

The national debt, in excess of 13 trillion, is not payable with FRNs (which are debt instruments borrowed, at usury, into existence pursuant to Title 12 USC Sec. 411). The public debt computes to a requirement for 650 BILLION ounces of gold bullion stamped into coin.

World wide estimate for above ground bullion is 5.5 billion ounces (2004 Wikipedia)

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h6/current/
Federal Reserve M1: M2:
2010 May 1706.7 8580.2 Billions

1. M1 consists of (1) currency outside the U.S. Treasury, Federal Reserve Banks, and the vaults of depository institutions;
2. M2 consists of M1 plus (1) savings deposits (including money market deposit accounts);
M1 is a rough measure of circulating paper. M2 includes the bank account balances. But as we all know, savings deposits are lent out, into circulation.

Is 1.7 trillion in paper versus 14 trillion in economic activity (GDP), evidence of a shortage or a surplus?
Is 50 trillion in unfunded liabilities versus 1.7 trillion in circulation, evidence of a shortage or a surplus?

And when the "bailout" was given to the banks, why wasn't it immediately lent out to "gain usury"?
Perhaps there were a large segment of account holders seeking to cash out, in a money drought?

In answer to the question - how do we have inflation during a money drought, the answer is shiftable taxation.
Since 1916, and the income tax, the retail price of American made goods and services have had shifted taxes appear in the price. (Where else do companies and laborers get their money to pay taxes if not from the final customer?)
When there is a delay from the point that taxes are collected and spent, and when they appear in the retail price, inexplicable inflation results. This can be shown by examination of the Statistical Abstract of the Department of Commerce for the years before and after 1916. On a logarithmic scale, you can see a step function in 1916. Ask an "Academic" Economist to explain what happened in 1916 to account for the bump in the tax revenue per capita, debt per capita and income per capita.

The net result is economic chaos - as scarce money is desperately needed to pay debt - and there is not enough.

We're in for a "bad time", readers. And it won't get better until it gets far worse.

Frankly, all the viable options and remedies inevitably result in a collapse of the socialist / usurer alliance AND an implosion of the trade value of the "dollar bill". That does not bode well for America and the world.

The big question: what will arise from the ashes?
&#91;] A renewed Republican form, or
&#91;] The People's Democratic Socialist Republic of America?

[SirCruz]

This is what we see in real life this excess of money creates inflation.
If what you say were true that interest causes a shortage of money we would see money rising in value.

Your claim: there is an EXCESS of money, and it is creating INFLATION.
My rebuttal: There is no excess of money. Where is that excess, and who's bidding up the price on everything? It isn't Bill Gates, or other Plutocrats. Who has all that paper money? Where is it?

Your rebuttal is that a shortage of money would cause DEFLATION.
My claim: Under classic economics, that should happen. But we all can see that the opposite has occurred. We have a money drought (exacerbated by a credit drought) AND we have ever rising prices.

{Based on 1910 wholesale price index, there's been a loss of 99% of the relative buying power of the paper money, disregarding the legal versus lawful tender aspect. I suspect that the drop is even greater. Under a "hard money" system, the ratio would be roughly 4400:1. 4400 frns = 1 silver dollar.}

My proofs:
With respect to lawful money, Fort Knox Depository has approx. 147.4 million ounces of gold. Pursuant to the Coinage Act of 1793, and before the declaration of bankruptcy in 1933, one ounce of gold was equivalent to 20 U.S. dollars *(silver).
Therefore, Fort Knox holds approximately 2.9 billion dollars worth of bullion. (Current prices, though denominated in dollars, are actually in "dollar bills" - no par value - and are not of any use)

The national debt, in excess of 13 trillion, is not payable with FRNs (which are debt instruments borrowed, at usury, into existence pursuant to Title 12 USC Sec. 411). The public debt computes to a requirement for 650 BILLION ounces of gold bullion stamped into coin.

World wide estimate for above ground bullion is 5.5 billion ounces (2004 Wikipedia)

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h6/current/
Federal Reserve M1: M2:
2010 May 1706.7 8580.2 Billions

1. M1 consists of (1) currency outside the U.S. Treasury, Federal Reserve Banks, and the vaults of depository institutions;
2. M2 consists of M1 plus (1) savings deposits (including money market deposit accounts);
M1 is a rough measure of circulating paper. M2 includes the bank account balances. But as we all know, savings deposits are lent out, into circulation.

Is 1.7 trillion in paper versus 14 trillion in economic activity (GDP), evidence of a shortage or a surplus?
Is 50 trillion in unfunded liabilities versus 1.7 trillion in circulation, evidence of a shortage or a surplus?

And when the "bailout" was given to the banks, why wasn't it immediately lent out to "gain usury"?
Perhaps there were a large segment of account holders seeking to cash out, in a money drought?

In answer to the question - how do we have inflation during a money drought, the answer is shiftable taxation.
Since 1916, and the income tax, the retail price of American made goods and services have had shifted taxes appear in the price. (Where else do companies and laborers get their money to pay taxes if not from the final customer?)
When there is a delay from the point that taxes are collected and spent, and when they appear in the retail price, inexplicable inflation results. This can be shown by examination of the Statistical Abstract of the Department of Commerce for the years before and after 1916. On a logarithmic scale, you can see a step function in 1916. Ask an "Academic" Economist to explain what happened in 1916 to account for the bump in the tax revenue per capita, debt per capita and income per capita.

The net result is economic chaos - as scarce money is desperately needed to pay debt - and there is not enough.

We're in for a "bad time", readers. And it won't get better until it gets far worse.

Frankly, all the viable options and remedies inevitably result in a collapse of the socialist / usurer alliance AND an implosion of the trade value of the "dollar bill". That does not bode well for America and the world.

The big question: what will arise from the ashes?
&#91;] A renewed Republican form, or
&#91;] The People's Democratic Socialist Republic of America?


Interesting Post Jet! Thanks!

[7th trump]

Yes I've always enjoyed Jets posts the most on this forum.


The big question: what will arise from the ashes?
&#91;] A renewed Republican form, or
&#91;] The People's Democratic Socialist Republic of America?

Hopefully "A renewed Republic form" will arise if you throw out the revelations of the Bible.

Wow!!!! what awesome times we live in.
This is it folks be prepared for the fake messiah to appear play acting as Jesus Christ. Dont put the mark of the beast on your forehead by beleiving this fake is the real mcCoy when he shows up.

[Bigjon]

This is what we see in real life this excess of money creates inflation.
If what you say were true that interest causes a shortage of money we would see money rising in value.

Your claim: there is an EXCESS of money, and it is creating INFLATION.
My rebuttal: There is no excess of money. Where is that excess, and who's bidding up the price on everything? It isn't Bill Gates, or other Plutocrats. Who has all that paper money? Where is it?

Your rebuttal is that a shortage of money would cause DEFLATION.
My claim: Under classic economics, that should happen. But we all can see that the opposite has occurred. We have a money drought (exacerbated by a credit drought) AND we have ever rising prices.

{Based on 1910 wholesale price index, there's been a loss of 99% of the relative buying power of the paper money, disregarding the legal versus lawful tender aspect. I suspect that the drop is even greater. Under a "hard money" system, the ratio would be roughly 4400:1. 4400 frns = 1 silver dollar.}

My proofs:
With respect to lawful money, Fort Knox Depository has approx. 147.4 million ounces of gold. Pursuant to the Coinage Act of 1793, and before the declaration of bankruptcy in 1933, one ounce of gold was equivalent to 20 U.S. dollars *(silver).
Therefore, Fort Knox holds approximately 2.9 billion dollars worth of bullion. (Current prices, though denominated in dollars, are actually in "dollar bills" - no par value - and are not of any use)

The national debt, in excess of 13 trillion, is not payable with FRNs (which are debt instruments borrowed, at usury, into existence pursuant to Title 12 USC Sec. 411). The public debt computes to a requirement for 650 BILLION ounces of gold bullion stamped into coin.

World wide estimate for above ground bullion is 5.5 billion ounces (2004 Wikipedia)

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h6/current/
Federal Reserve M1: M2:
2010 May 1706.7 8580.2 Billions

1. M1 consists of (1) currency outside the U.S. Treasury, Federal Reserve Banks, and the vaults of depository institutions;
2. M2 consists of M1 plus (1) savings deposits (including money market deposit accounts);
M1 is a rough measure of circulating paper. M2 includes the bank account balances. But as we all know, savings deposits are lent out, into circulation.

Is 1.7 trillion in paper versus 14 trillion in economic activity (GDP), evidence of a shortage or a surplus?
Is 50 trillion in unfunded liabilities versus 1.7 trillion in circulation, evidence of a shortage or a surplus?

And when the "bailout" was given to the banks, why wasn't it immediately lent out to "gain usury"?
Perhaps there were a large segment of account holders seeking to cash out, in a money drought?

In answer to the question - how do we have inflation during a money drought, the answer is shiftable taxation.
Since 1916, and the income tax, the retail price of American made goods and services have had shifted taxes appear in the price. (Where else do companies and laborers get their money to pay taxes if not from the final customer?)
When there is a delay from the point that taxes are collected and spent, and when they appear in the retail price, inexplicable inflation results. This can be shown by examination of the Statistical Abstract of the Department of Commerce for the years before and after 1916. On a logarithmic scale, you can see a step function in 1916. Ask an "Academic" Economist to explain what happened in 1916 to account for the bump in the tax revenue per capita, debt per capita and income per capita.

The net result is economic chaos - as scarce money is desperately needed to pay debt - and there is not enough.

We're in for a "bad time", readers. And it won't get better until it gets far worse.

Frankly, all the viable options and remedies inevitably result in a collapse of the socialist / usurer alliance AND an implosion of the trade value of the "dollar bill". That does not bode well for America and the world.

The big question: what will arise from the ashes?
&#91;] A renewed Republican form, or
&#91;] The People's Democratic Socialist Republic of America?


You’re putting words in my mouth that I never said. I never claimed that right now we are seeing inflation.

This is what I said.



Your premise that my example fails when there are multiple loans is wrong. Actually one loan is the worst case example in the availability of money. With multiple loans each containing the interest payments due, by virtue of the banker spending the money back into the pool of money we call the economy, we get much more money available. This is what we see in real life this excess of money creates inflation.

If what you say were true that interest causes a shortage of money we would see money rising in value.

Your original premise was that the interest was not created when the loan was created and that more money has to be borrowed into the system to pay for that (1) loan.

We have seen massive inflation caused by many previous credit bubbles and I agree that “our” dollar is now worth one 1910 penny

We have rising prices on things that are kept in short supply and falling prices on crap we don’t need.

I don’t understand why you keep harping about gold in relation to the US dollar, because that relationship was removed a long time ago.

Right now we are having a deflation because the banks are withholding loans and spending.

[jetgraphics]

I don’t understand why you keep harping about gold in relation to the US dollar, because that relationship was removed a long time ago.


If you read the law, you will understand.

Pursuant to Article 1, Section 8, Congress has the power to COIN money - not create it. Coin means to stamp bullion. Congress cannot create bullion. If Congress had the power to create money, why would it need the power to BORROW money?

Next point: A dollar and a dollar bill are not synonymous.

A dollar (unit) is a silver coin. A one ounce gold coin was equated to 20 SILVER dollars (Coinage Act of 1792). In the Coinage Act of 1873, silver was demonetized FOR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ONLY. The constitution was not amended, nor were the people penalized for using silver dollars. (Art. 1, Sec. 10 explicitly forbids states from accepting any thing BUT gold and silver coin as tender in PAYMENT of debt.)

(When the Panama Canal was under construction the U.S. paid American workers with gold dollars, and paid the foreign labor with silver dollars. Go figure.)

The outstanding public debt is denominated in DOLLARS, not "dollar bills". Since silver was demonetized for the Federal government, the outstanding debt can only be paid with GOLD coin. And since the debt existed BEFORE the State of Emergency, when FDR changed the price per ounce for gold from $20 DOLLARS to $32 (and later to $50), the 13 trillions owed is IMPOSSIBLE to pay. (It is over 100 times the estimated world supply of above ground gold bullion)

Pursuant to Title 12 USC Sec. 411, a "dollar bill" (Federal Reserve NOTE) is an obligation (debt) of the U.S. to pay face value in DOLLARS on demand.

That promise was repudiated in 1933 (for Americans) and the "gold window" was officially shut for foreign claimants, in the 1970s (iirc).

Since 1933, the "dollar bill" was not redeemable for lawful money.

The "dollar bill" is not fiat, for it has no value - by law.
It IS a worthless security, with a MINUS value.
Debt cannot pay debt.

The reason why a worthless note (and counterfeit fractional coin) circulate as "current monies" (legal tender) is because 300 million enumerated "human resources" are sureties on that debt. As obligated parties on those IOUs, they cannot object to their tender in DISCHARGE (not payment) of debt.

The American monetary system is based upon hypothecated debt and human slavery.
... but it's by our consent...
According to the law that few bother to read, ponder and digest.

I may be wrong, and until someone can produce the law that states otherwise, I will have to rely upon what is in the public record, regardless of the personal and heart felt beliefs and opinions of the majority.

The public record is quite clear (after decrypting) - in 1933, due to usury, the Federal government declared a state of emergency for inability to service their debt (FRNs). The FDR administration capitulated to the creditor, was re-organized under bankruptcy, and changed their focus to prosecuting the debt. In short, Congress became trustees of their own bankruptcy, and induced the free people to "voluntarily" underwrite their insane contract with abominable usurers.

That is why the folks who are hassled by the Eye Are Us have two things in common: SSN and open, interest bearing bank account. It is the combination of those two compacts - wherein you declare to be a pauper, obligated party, and bankrupt, and then engage in usury via extension of credit, under the perpetual "temporary" State of Emergency.

Coincidentally, all the people I personally know (myself included) who were not hassled by the Eye Are Us had two things in common - NO SSN and NO BANK ACCOUNTS.

Likewise, trying to "reform" the government is like a pirate crew trying to reform themselves by voting for a new Captain and officer corps. The only viable choice is to get off the pirate Ship of State - and head for "dry land" (law of the land).

[Bigjon]

I have seen others on other forums bring out the law books where it says that our paper dollar is legal tender and has no tie to gold.

I don't really care, as it seems they make it up as they go along.

As I understand it the coinage act of 1792 is still on the books, even though their are several other coinage acts after it.

1933 was another bankers crime against the US people, they used the gold standard to shrink the money supply by 33%. It had nothing to do with usury, It was an engineered event just like today. If they had wanted to end the depression all they had to do is open the mint to all US citizens to bring in silver bullion to be made into real dollars and there would have been plenty of money and boom times for all. Silver bullion was selling for 25 cents an ounce at that time and was in huge supply.

Instead they wanted suffering and the removal of all metal to be replaced by paper tokens.

[keehah]

Are we going back to sleep in this thread?

People arguing their own definitions of inflation and deflation.

Others not realizing participation in an economy of take 5 give 5 is better than take 5.05 give 5 in which you sucked 0.05 from that guy below you.

I guess I also stand with helping with the unawakening with this infighting post. ^-^



And anything in return, that has tangible value (so anything other than a smile) works out the same mathematically as interest.

Perhaps fewer stupid destructive decisions would be made if return needed to be more than just top fiat sucking. People would lend because it would make their community better, make them liked by others or improve their lives in some way. Or because they had a need for some of the good or service the business produced. Or they wanted to own some of the business and profit from its success.

Wake up! A smile or any other good or service does not destroy mathematically as interest. When I pay back your interest free loan, a smile and several baskets of blueberries (as example) sucks no fiat money from my community.

[Bigjon]

Inflation is an increase in the money supply, deflation is a decrease in the money supply.

Good luck finding someone who will loan you money interest free.

The thing I see is those who seek to ban interest will be the loan sharks around the corner and under the bridge. Their interest will be 100% in 90 days or we break your kneecaps.

The person who desperately needs money will now watch his son die, because there was no money available.

Think drug war and all the benefits that has brought us.

But hey it's gods law!

[keehah]

Even if everyone agrees to lend to each other interest free, I could see a 7% yearly loan sales tax claimed by each of the Federal and State/Provincial governments. ;D :-\

[Bigjon]

What I would like to see is the Government issuing it's own money debt free, as in no national debt.

I haven't studied this, but it might be an alternative to our current system.

http://www.michaeljournal.org/plenty.htm

[keehah]

Reuters: U.N. chief condemns rights expert's 9/11 comments (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70O05O20110125?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+reuters/topNews+(News+/+US+/+Top+News))

Jan.24, 2011

U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon condemned "preposterous" comments by a U.N.-appointed expert on Palestinian rights that there was a cover-up over the September 11 attacks, Ban's chief of staff said on Monday.

The official, Vijay Nambiar, said however that it was not up to Ban to fire the expert, U.S. academic Richard Falk, as demanded by UN Watch, a Geneva-based advocacy group.

Falk wrote in a blog this month that there had been an "apparent cover-up" by U.S. authorities over the September 11, 2001 attacks, in which hijackers flew airliners into the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon near Washington.

He said mainstream media had been "unwilling to acknowledge the well-evidenced doubts about the official version of the events: an al Qaeda operation with no foreknowledge by government officials."

In a letter to Ban last Thursday, UN Watch director Hillel Neuer called on the U.N. chief to "strongly condemn Mr. Falk's offensive remarks -- and ... immediately remove him from his post."

A letter of reply from Nambiar said Ban "condemns (Falk's) remarks. He has repeatedly stated his view that any such suggestion is preposterous -- and an affront to the memory of the more than 3,000 people who died in the attack."

Nambiar said Falk and other rights experts were not appointed by Ban but by the Geneva-based Human Rights Council, a 47-nation body created by the U.N. General Assembly in 2006. "Their continuance in their jobs is thus for the Council to decide," he added.

UN Watch says on its website it is a non-governmental organization, accredited with the United Nations and affiliated with the American Jewish Committee...

[Awoke]

He has repeatedly stated his view that any such suggestion is preposterous -- and an affront to the memory of the more than 3,000 people who died in the attack."


Almost as bad as being called an anti-semite!

:oo-->

[TheNocturnalEgyptian]

I firmly believe there is a mass awakening happening. It's happening in my own life, and I see the seeds sprouting in others. GiM woke me up to the financial, and for the last year, I have been working on my spiritual side. I have moved heavily into Yoga, Kung Fu, Meditation, Orgonite (as you know), Bodywork. Two-Three years ago when I spoke to people about the financial conspiracy, nobody cared! And this was DURING the crash that was supposed to be "Worse" than the great depression!!!

So I went off to work on myself for a while. Well I'm back, and people are VERY receptive to hearing about the financial conspiracy now. Everyone knows something is wrong.