Deadly Arkansas Shooting By 'Sovereigns' Jerry and Joe Kane Who Shun U.S. Law

[wildcard]

link (http://abcnews.go.com/WN/deadly-arkansas-shooting-sovereign-citizens-jerry-kane-joseph/story?id=11065285)

Deadly Arkansas Shooting By 'Sovereigns' Jerry and Joe Kane Who Shun U.S. Law


Father and Son Shoot Police During Routine Traffic Stop, Killing Two Officers

By DAN HARRIS
July 1, 2010

A routine traffic stop in Arkansas turned into an extraordinarily violent shooting between police and a father-son pair of so-called "sovereign citizens" six weeks ago, shedding light on a secretive and dangerous subculture which believes American laws don't apply to them.

When police stopped a white minivan in West Memphis, Ark., on May 20, they had no idea that it would set off a chain of events that would result in the deaths of two officers as well as Jerry Kane and his 16-year-old son Joseph.

Watch 'World News' for more on this story tonight on ABC.

Both Kanes were deeply immersed in the the anti-government movement known as "sovereign citizens," estimated to number in the hundreds of thousands across the country. Sovereigns frequently have run-ins with the law, and this time the confrontation proved deadly.

Video released by West Memphis authorities shows the graphic detail. As the officers questioned Jerry Kane, his son Joe suddenly leaped out of the minivan and opened fire on the officers with an AK-47 assault rifle.

Moments later, the father and son got back into the vehicle and drove off, with Joe still firing his rifle.

Two Officers Killed in Shooting

When first responders arrived, they found the two officers dead -- one in the street and the other in a ditch by the side of the road, shot in the head.

"Oh my f***ing God," said one officer on radio chatter as he drove up to the scene.

The word quickly went out on the radio to look for a white minivan, and more than an hour later, the Kanes' vehicle was spotted and surrounded in a Wal-Mart parking lot.

As the Kanes tried to escape, a fish and wildlife officer rammed his truck into their vehicle.

The Kanes began shooting at authorities again, firing at the wildlife officer's cab at close range. Incredibly, he was unharmed, but both Jerry and Joe Kane died in the ensuing gun battle.

"Officers did what they could to save the lives of their fellow officers and themselves, and you know, it has not been a difficult call for this office to say that this was a justified shoot," said Mike Walden, the prosecuting attorney for the second judicial district in Arkansas.

Shooters Were Allegedly Part of Sovereign Citizen Movement

According to organizations that monitor hate groups, the Arkansas incident is a rare window into the world of sovereign citizens.

The movement has been around for decades and has included some notable cases of violence in the past. Terry Nichols of the Oklahoma City bombing was a sovereign citizen, and Joe Stack, who flew his small plane into the IRS building in Austin, Texas. in February, was also affiliated with the movement.

J.J. MacNab, a financial consultant who has been investigating sovereign citizens for years by creating fake online identities, is writing a book on their insular underworld.

"It's like a cult. These people truly believe they are right," she said.

MacNab said it's a loose, unstructured movement of mostly white, middle-aged men. Their philosophy is based on cobbled-together pieces of information from the Constitution, the Bible, commercial law and even admiralty law.

"They put them together and they form a vast concept that they don't have to pay taxes or pay debt," added MacNab.

FBI Calls Group a Terror Threat

The FBI lists sovereign citizens as a domestic terror threat, saying they've been responsible for such crimes as murder, threatening judges, using fake currency and engaging in scams to convince people that they don't have to pay taxes or mortgages.

Both Jerry Kane and his son Joseph were involved in such schemes, peddling their message in seminars across the country. Videos of Kane posted on YouTube show him dressed in a white suit jacket with a closely-cropped, military-style haircut, instructing a group of people in ways to fight off banks and lawyers.

"I look at the legal term not the slang," Kane says on one video, urging his audience to look at the roots of legal language to reveal hidden meaning.

Inside the World of Sovereign Citizens

In recent weeks, ABC News has called dozens of sovereign citizens to ask for interviews and repeatedly been told no. But Brent Johnson, a sovereign citizen who hosts a radio show on the subject, agreed to answer questions and explain the group's ideas.

"I call myself a modern day freedom fighter," said Johnson. "You're the ruler, the master in your life."

Johnson said that people don't need Social Security numbers, driver's licenses, hunting licenses or wedding licenses, but that doesn't make sovereigns dangerous.

"You can find any organization, any group, any movement and there are dangerous people in that movement," said Johnson. "But I'm not one of them. I'm not a danger to anyone, except those who don't wish to have the truth exposed."

Observers say that the group is now growing, fueled by the Internet, the recession and anger at the current administration. There is also growing fear that the potential for violence is on the rise. Already, some sovereigns are calling Jerry and Joe Kane "heroes."

[wildcard]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLSNLeoab8c

[wildcard]

Bubba's mad.

*wow, check out the comments in that youtube vid. A lot of support. People commenting about all the cops getting shot recently. I guess folks aren't afraid to take out the popo anymore.

[wildcard]

Oh yeah, you gotta read the youtube comments. The pork is really on the prowl in that one. Trying to get the names and addresses of people making negative comments about their dead "brothers". Fuckin police state.

[Libertarian_Guard]

I know where you're coming from with this thread, and I understand your point of view, but even still, it is clear to me that 'dad' did a piss poor job of educating his son and in my opinion, was responsible for his son's premature death.

Why draw guns and start shooting when you can talk about things and live a long life?

[Saul Mine]

estimated to number in the hundreds of thousands across the country.

Gee, I had no idea we had so many!

[Agrippa]

A routine traffic stop in Arkansas turned into an extraordinarily violent shooting between police and a father-son pair of so-called "sovereign citizens" six weeks ago, shedding light on a secretive and dangerous subculture which believes American laws don't apply to them.

Perhaps it will shed some light on the Sovereign Citizen movement as well....

[TPTB]

A routine traffic stop in Arkansas turned into an extraordinarily violent shooting between police and a father-son pair of so-called "sovereign citizens" six weeks ago, shedding light on a secretive and dangerous subculture which believes American laws don't apply to them.

Perhaps it will shed some light on the Sovereign Citizen movement as well....


Yeah, the same "light" the media has spread on the Militia movement.

[boogietillyapuke]

J.J. MacNab, a financial consultant who has been investigating sovereign citizens for years by creating fake online identities, is writing a book on their insular underworld.

"It's like a cult. These people truly believe they are right," she said.

MacNab said it's a loose, unstructured movement of mostly white, middle-aged men. Their philosophy is based on cobbled-together pieces of information from the Constitution, the Bible, commercial law and even admiralty law.

"They put them together and they form a vast concept that they don't have to pay taxes or pay debt," added MacNab.

Quatlooser extraordinaire! Elf Nino's Mom

[k-os]

A routine traffic stop in Arkansas turned into an extraordinarily violent shooting between police and a father-son pair of so-called "sovereign citizens" six weeks ago, shedding light on a secretive and dangerous subculture which believes American laws don't apply to them.

Perhaps it will shed some light on the Sovereign Citizen movement as well....


Yeah, the same "light" the media has spread on the Militia movement.


That's what I was thinking.

[philo beddoe]

The movement has been around for decades and has included some notable cases of violence in the past. Terry Nichols of the Oklahoma City bombing was a sovereign citizen, and Joe Stack, who flew his small plane into the IRS building in Austin, Texas. in February, was also affiliated with the movement.
Very interesting wording here

[sirgonzo420]

A "sovereign citizen" is an oxymoron.

Sovereign = free.

Citizen = subject.

One cannot be both at the same time.

[iOWNme]

Incredible...

We will likely never know the truth now, because the system will demonize and label them into oblivion.

Very sad either way....

[The Great Ag]

From the article, what does the "sovereign citizen" movement have to do with the shooting?

I think ONE of the intentions of this article is to demonize those who criticize gov't. The article could easily have made the point the two shooters shop at Wal-mart, thereby implying ALL Wal-mart shoppers are violent. Besides mentioning their affiliation, the article does NOT show how being a member of the "sovereign citizen" movement makes one a violent idiot.

Based upon the article, I DO NOT condone the actions of the father and son. I do not care what the officer said to them at the "traffic" stop, it does not merit pulling out an AK-47 and shooting the officers. It seems to me the two were looking for a fight and found it.

The Great Ag

[Libertarian_Guard]

A "sovereign citizen" is an oxymoron.

Sovereign = free.

Citizen = subject.

One cannot be both at the same time.


Well perhaps, or not.

Depending on how YOU define free and subject.

I hope this thread does not come back to another version of 'my aching chains' we've had enough of that, and all of us will never have the same point of view. Such is life.

[madfranks]

A routine traffic stop in Arkansas turned into an extraordinarily violent shooting between police and a father-son pair of so-called "sovereign citizens" six weeks ago, shedding light on a secretive and dangerous subculture which believes American laws don't apply to them.

Perhaps it will shed some light on the Sovereign Citizen movement as well....


Yeah when I read that I thought it was a perfect description of the police subculture. There are more cops who believe laws don't apply to them than any so called "sovereign citizens".

[wallew]

This should have made the news ALL OVER.

Yet we have Wildcard bringing us VITAL INFO.

Did you know that this year when Newsweek did a year in review there is NOT ONE PHOTO of any of the Tea Party Movements. NONE. Llke they didn't happen.

I'd equate this more with a news blackout ala the Tea Party.

Kudos goes to Wildcard for finding and posting this one.

Also, the OTHER REASON that this did NOT get large play? COPS DON'T WANT US 'CITIZENS' (slaves) realizing that we CAN do something about this problem...

[Horn]

The father was guilty?

[Book]

Moments later, the father and son got back into the vehicle and drove off, with Joe still firing his rifle.



http://www.parishworld.net/pwadmin/userfiles/image/father%20and%20son.jpg

http://www.usbr.gov/mp/ccao/newmelones/photo_gallery/activities/father_son_fishing.jpg

[Book]

Wildcard - I want to thank you for posting this. It is a CLASSIC TEXTBOOK EXAMPLE of some bush league writer ejaculating the garbage mainstream media puts out there to warp the truth. I do not dispute two cops got popped by these guys, but once again the idiots will focus on the effect and not the cause like the good robots they are.



Especially poignant for Father's Day.

Thanks Wildcard!

|--0--|

[tekrunner]

Jerry and Joe Kane, names worth remembering. Thanks Wildcard

[madfranks]

Book, those pictures are hilarious!!! Nothing like a little quality father and son time! AHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Ares]

Why draw guns and start shooting when you can talk about things and live a long life?

I mean this with all due respect, so don't take offense.

But a long life on ones knees in perpetual submission to the state is not worth living.

[sunshine05]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLSNLeoab8c


In the first part of the video the officer was clearly shot to the right of the shoulder, probably in the grassy area. Then later they show the body lying in the middle of the road. That's strange, isn't it?

And someone just happened to catch the truck hitting the van on video? Wow.

[Uncle Salty]

I mean this with all due respect, so don't take offense.

But a long life on ones knees in perpetual submission to the state is not worth living.


I highly doubt the Kane boys were living on their knees in perpetual submission to the state. Some people just like to make trouble and stir the pot. No reason to shoot cops to death for getting pulled over.

Sovereigns or not, the Kane boys effed up big time. Living the rest of their lives in prison is definitely living on one's knees in perpetual submission to not only the state, but to big bad bubba as well.

[Ares]

Sovereigns or not, the Kane boys effed up big time. Living the rest of their lives in prison is definitely living on one's knees in perpetual submission to not only the state, but to big bad bubba as well.

Guess that's where we differ on submission to the state. I view it as no accountability, wasteful spending of money for services that provide nothing, restriction on travel, property ownership (it's not yours if you pay taxes on it), and knowing in the back of your mind that a cop can taze our beat you into submission and write it up as "he was resisting arrest."

That is modern day American oppression, and if you are not submissive you get "dealt with."

[k-os]

In the first part of the video the officer was clearly shot to the right of the shoulder, probably in the grassy area. Then later they show the body lying in the middle of the road. That's strange, isn't it?


Yeah, that is weird. Maybe he crawled? I think the story said one officer was in the ditch, the other was in the street.



And someone just happened to catch the truck hitting the van on video? Wow.


That was from the Walmart security cameras, I am guessing from the angles.

[Cebu_4_2]

In the first part of the video the officer was clearly shot to the right of the shoulder, probably in the grassy area. Then later they show the body lying in the middle of the road. That's strange, isn't it?

And someone just happened to catch the truck hitting the van on video? Wow.


VERY interesting observation! I am glad you noticed this because I hadn't.

[JohnQPublic]

Why draw guns and start shooting when you can talk about things and live a long life?

I mean this with all due respect, so don't take offense.

But a long life on ones knees in perpetual submission to the state is not worth living.


If they would have used a little judgement and not started shooting people, there might have been a better life on the other side of the current financial collapse. Now at least one 16 year old will not be part of that.

(not meaning to disregard the other senseless lives lost)

[Bullfrog]

I heard about this from multiple news sources when it happened. So this one doesn't fall into the media blackout category. And I think it was covered here when it happened too. My question is, why the rehash of an old event now?

[StackerKen]

"Live by the sword, die by the sword"


Or AK47 in this case

[Ares]

If they would have used a little judgement and not started shooting people, there might have been a better life on the other side of the current financial collapse. Now at least one 16 year old will not be part of that.

Sadly I feel he won't be the last, with the way things are going.

[JohnQPublic]

From the comments on YouTube, the fatehr and soon were dealing marijuana, and it sounds like they may have been protecting their contraband. I suspect this is not directly related to the sovereign movement.

[Uncle Salty]

Guess that's where we differ on submission to the state. I view it as no accountability, wasteful spending of money for services that provide nothing, restriction on travel, property ownership (it's not yours if you pay taxes on it), and knowing in the back of your mind that a cop can taze our beat you into submission and write it up as "he was resisting arrest."

That is modern day American oppression, and if you are not submissive you get "dealt with."


I don't disagree that the state is abusive, but these guys are going to spend the rest of their lives in prison for a traffic stop? Are you kidding me? How sovereign are they now? Gotta pick your battles more judiciously. Yeah, they really showed those cops. Yeah, they really proved their point. Enjoy your three hots and a cot for the rest of your sovereign lives.

[Ares]

I don't disagree that the state is abusive, but these guys are going to spend the rest of their lives in prison for a traffic stop? Are you kidding me? How sovereign are they now? Gotta pick your battles more judiciously. Yeah, they really showed those cops. Yeah, they really proved their point. Enjoy your three hots and a cot for the rest of your sovereign lives.

3 hots and a cot? Where are you getting that? They're dead, they're 6 feet under.

[Bullfrog]

I think I found an answer to my question about why the rehash of an old event.

From George Ure's site.


Back in my earliest 'news days', I remember having nothing to read in the way of real news over my first Fourth of July. The newsroom jokes centered around "Let's rewrite Hints from Heloise?" to "How about we rewrite the farm report from last week? No one'd notice..."

The next major holiday that weekend that came along didn't see these same mistakes made - I had the crew store away 'undated feature material' so over the next couple of days, look for lots of fluff & puff in headlines since the talking heads won't be turning out as much stuff since many of them get holidays, too.

[Horn]

3 hots and a cot? Where are you getting that? They're dead, they're 6 feet under.


Arkansas, ain't California.

No road chase there, just a stiff execution.

Question: what is parks & wildlife doing there?

Oh, I get it "wildlife", like a bear that's been caught man eating's got to be put down...

[Liquid]

Watching that video makes me sick to my stomach, as well as reading some of the comments in this thread.

To me, it's the epitome of what's wrong with our society today. We live in an information age of video games, electronic buffers, a virtual life, where the lack of life experience....leads to lack of respect for life, in general.

I question, the folks that don't respect life, internet chest thumpers who've lost all emotions on feeling of what's right and wrong, just to further promote a fucked up agenda.

For those, I say look in the mirror, as your agenda is a carbon copy of what you claim to condemn.

[Quantum]

Already, some sovereigns are calling Jerry and Joe Kane "heroes."


I'm not a "sovereign," but I will call them heroes.

Someone has to actively stand up to fascist tyranny of the current system.

The consent of the governed has been withdrawn.

[Quantum]

Why draw guns and start shooting when you can talk about things and live a long life?


Some guys believe that their principles are more important than a "long life."

I don't agree with them about not paying taxes - it's just money, pay the fvckers instead of dying - but I understand their ideals.

[I am me, I am free]

Some comments on the utube site indicate that there was an active arrest warrant for pot out for the father. Some overreaction along with poor judgment/poor planning/no foresight IMO.

I don't think that was the hill to die on, but that's JMO.

[Quantum]

No reason to shoot cops to death for getting pulled over.


It appears the Kanes got tired of the mafia enforcers pulling them over for protection money.

And that's all it is, you know that: "revenue enhancement," nothing to do with "safety."

[Quantum]

"Live by the sword, die by the sword"


Or AK47 in this case


Seems the cops used their so-called "authority" of the firearm to initiate the problem in this case.

[Quantum]

From the comments on YouTube, the fatehr and soon were dealing marijuana, and it sounds like they may have been protecting their contraband. I suspect this is not directly related to the sovereign movement.


Marijuana is a plant that God put on Earth. George Washington & Thomas Jefferson both grew and smoked cannabis. The plain language of the Ninth Amendment secures our right to use plants.

I'd say these guys were pretty patriotic.

[sirgonzo420]

Sorry to get off-topic, but are you a potsmoker, Quantum?

I would not have pegged you as one...

[wildcard]

I know where you're coming from with this thread, and I understand your point of view, but even still, it is clear to me that 'dad' did a piss poor job of educating his son and in my opinion, was responsible for his son's premature death.

Why draw guns and start shooting when you can talk about things and live a long life?


You understand my point of view? I highly doubt it. ::)

[StackerKen]

I'd say these guys were pretty patriotic.

Those guys murdered those cops that pulled them over. You think that is patriotic?


Sheeshh :-[

Sure those cops could have been a holes like a lot of cops are...

They also could have been good people...just trying to protect folks and up hold the law.

Some of you hate cops...I understand...

But if one of your family members was murdered and you had no clue who did it.......Would you call the cops and expect them to try to find the killer?

Sure, I agree there are a lot of ass hole tazer happy, dog shooting lame ass cops...

.but there are some good ones that became cops for the right reasons....I don't think you can lump them all together.....

Some of you may think we don't need cops telling us what to do and taking money(fines) from us....

You gotta realize they do more than that...don't you?

[sirgonzo420]

I'd say these guys were pretty patriotic.

Those guys murdered those cops that pulled them over. You think that is patriotic?


Sheeshh :-[

Sure those cops could have been a holes like a lot of cops are...

They also could have been good people...just trying to protect folks and up hold the law.

Some of you hate cops...I understand...

But if one of your family members was murdered and you had no clue who did it.......Would you call the cops and expect them to try to find the killer?

Sure, I agree there are a lot of ass hole tazer happy, dog shooting lame ass cops...

.but there are some good ones that became cops for the right reasons....I don't think you can lump them all together.....

Some of you may think we don't need cops telling us what to do and taking money(fines) from us....

You gotta realize they do more than that...don't you?



No, I'd probably try to find the guy who did it myself; they cops wouldn't really give a damn about finding him - I would.

[wildcard]

There are no good cops ken. You've been watching too many re-runs of TJ Hooker. There are bad cops and the cops that cover for bad cops. They are all on the take. If you are not on the take you may have an on the job accident.

If I'm on the take and you're not, then I don't trust you, you can turn me in.

If I'm molesting women in the back of my squad car in lieu of a fine and you aren't then maybe you will turn me in.

If I am planting evidence and making up bullshit charges and you aren't...

[Cebu_4_2]

There are no good cops ken. There are bad cops and the cops that cover for bad cops.


You must live in some fvcked city, where I am every cop I met is cool. Well maybe I haven't met many but the few were cool.

[Quantum]

Sorry to get off-topic, but are you a potsmoker, Quantum?

I would not have pegged you as one...


No, I can't stand the stuff, gives me respiratory problems for at least a day.

But I do like hempseed. ;D

[sirgonzo420]

Sorry to get off-topic, but are you a potsmoker, Quantum?

I would not have pegged you as one...


No, I can't stand the stuff, gives me respiratory problems for at least a day.

But I do like hempseed. ;D


Fair enough.

:D

[Quantum]

I'd say these guys were pretty patriotic.

Those guys murdered those cops that pulled them over. You think that is patriotic?


If a Highway Robber pulled you and your family over, and demanded money, what would you do?




They also could have been good people...just trying to protect folks and up hold the law.


ROTFLMAO!

Upholding WHO'S "law"?

Protecting WHOM?




Some of you may think we don't need cops telling us what to do and taking money(fines) from us....

You gotta realize they do more than that...don't you?



Oh, of course! They protect the truly guilty - often themselves or their "brothers" - from the perversely victimized.

Shoot a little girl bystander during a drug raid? "I was afraid for my life." Taser, almost to death, an 86-year old granny in bed? "She was 'resisting arrest'." I could go on, but by the end of my list, I'd lose my lunch.

[Quantum]

There are no good cops ken. You've been watching too many re-runs of TJ Hooker. There are bad cops and the cops that cover for bad cops. They are all on the take. If you are not on the take you may have an on the job accident.

If I'm on the take and you're not, then I don't trust you, you can turn me in.

If I'm molesting women in the back of my squad car in lieu of a fine and you aren't then maybe you will turn me in.

If I am planting evidence and making up bullsh*t charges and you aren't...





I've met several "good cops." They are all retired. And many of them said they left the career early because they couldn't stand the crookedness. All of them agreed today's "police work" has nothing in common with Andy Griffith.

[StackerKen]

whatever

Like I said I realize there are a lots of asshole cops out there

I guess I am Bias because my dad was a cop for 30 years. A homicide detective the last ten.
He retired about 12 years ago...and died about ten years ago.

He was a Good Man. and he was a good cop..and a damn good detective.

And when you guys dis cops...it feels a bit like your dising my old man.

So fuck you guys that are stupid enough to think they are All bad


If one of them patriotic ass holes shot my dad down while he was doing his job.
I would find there sorry asses and take care of with my dads gun.


http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h55/baytraderken/Dads.jpg

[Quantum]

whatever


Great reply! ::)




Like I said I realize there are a lots of asshole cops out there


You sure don't act like it.




I guess I am Bias because my dad was a cop for 30 years. A homicide detective the last ten.
He retired about 12 years ago...and died about ten years ago.

He was a Good Man. and he was a good cop..and a damn good detective.

And when you guys dis cops...it feels a bit like your dising my old man.


Your "old man" was a cop from 1968 to 1998...during the decline of the peace officer and the rise of the "law" enforcer.




So f*ck you guys that are stupid enough to think they are All bad


God bless you, too, Ken.




If one of them patriotic ass holes shot my dad down while he was doing his job.


Did he enforce tyranny?

Why don't you answer my question about the Highway Robber?

[I am me, I am free]

Ken, no doubt your Dad was 'old school', a genuine Peace Officer, which there are VERY few of today (it's been trained out of 'em).

Today a cop's job is less keeping the peace and more as security guard/revenue agent for the corporate state. As has been pointed out, these days those who aren't actually crooked are enablers because surely they see what is going on around them.

I did ridealongs for nearly 10 years. When I first started doing that in the early '80s there were no cages in the backs of the cruisers (in Austin). When I stopped doing ridealongs ALL of the cruisers had cages in the back, as if everyone arrested should be treated like an animal to be immediately thrown into a cage. I watched The Wild One last night. At one point in the movie the Sheriff and his deputies arrested all of the bikers, and guess what - none of them got handcuffed, they were put into the patrol cars without handcuffs. Something very evil is in play, and it isn't coming from 'the people', it's coming from the top, the Satan worshippers.

[StackerKen]

Why don't you answer my question about the Highway Robber?

I don't carry a gun in my car....So I guess i would let them take my "Stuff"

I would however protect my family's life with my life....


To me, there is a difference between "stuff" and a persons life



But Yeah...I guess a lot can change in a dozen years

But I don't recommend killing cops....most of the time they will win.

I will just lay low...and try to avoid the radar.

[StackerKen]

Ken, no doubt your Dad was 'old school', a genuine Peace Officer, which there are VERY few of today (it's been trained out of 'em).

Today a cop's job is less keeping the peace and more as security guard/revenue agent for the corporate state. As has been pointed out, these days those who aren't actually crooked are enablers because surely they see what is going on around them.

I did ridealongs for nearly 10 years. When I first started doing that in the early '80s there were no cages in the backs of the cruisers (in Austin). When I stopped doing ridealongs ALL of the cruisers had cages in the back, as if everyone arrested should be treated like an animal to be immediately thrown into a cage. I watched The Wild One last night. At one point in the movie the Sheriff and his deputies arrested all of the bikers, and guess what - none of them got handcuffed, they were put into the patrol cars without handcuffs. Something very evil is in play, and it isn't coming from 'the people', it's coming from the top, the Satan worshippers.


Thanks I am me

I guess I have to agree with you there. Satan and his followers do seem to be getting more plentiful these days

[LuckyStrike]

That video brought a smile to my face (well not the ending but still), thanks WC! ;D

As Quantum so eloquently put it "the consent of the governed has been withdrawn!" you hear that assholes trolling this forum? Let it sink in real good because the days of submission are drawing to a rapid end, fuck you police state thugs, I piss on these cops graves!

[StackerKen]

He was a Good Man. and he was a good cop..and a damn good detective.

And when you guys dis cops...it feels a bit like your dising my old man.


Your "old man" was a cop from 1968 to 1998...during the decline of the peace officer and the rise of the "law" enforcer.

OK Fair enough



So f*ck you guys that are stupid enough to think they are All bad


God bless you, too, Ken.


Yeah sorry bout that...guess i got a little carried away...Im still human ya know.



Quantum; Although I don't agree with you on a lot of things....
I have no beef with you.

[I am me, I am free]

FWIW, I visited close relatives living in Cancun recently. I noticed the cops arrested a kid in his early 20s and were placing him in the bed of on of the cops' pickup truck. There were a couple of cops in the bed with him and the kid was not handcuffed. I asked my relative why they didn't handcuff this arrestee and he advised me that because it was common knowledge that if the kid bolted the cops would beat the living shit out of him for running. It was an entirely different way of thinking than the overbearing police state here.

[dysgenic]

Two innocent men were murdered by criminals. It's pretty sick that so many people are blaming the victims and not the perpetrators of this debacle.

[k-os]

Two innocent men were murdered by criminals. It's pretty sick that so many people are blaming the victims and not the perpetrators of this debacle.


+1 for ambiguity. I dig.

[LuckyStrike]

Two innocent men were murdered by criminals. It's pretty sick that so many people are blaming the victims and not the perpetrators of this debacle.


I'm assuming by criminals you mean thugs who mindlessly enforce immoral and unconstitutional laws enacted by corrupt politicians on citizens? Criminals who routinely intimidate women, tase old ladies, beat the hell out of anyone who doesn't like their boots? If so I 100% agree.

[StackerKen]

Well, call me naive...or what haveyou.

To me, Deadly force is only justified when there are lives in danger.

[StackerKen]

I have a question for those of you that think those guys did the right thing shooting those cops.

Are you gonna shoot the next cop that pulls you over?

If not..Why not?

If all cops are out to rob you. Are you gonna let them?

BBL

[LuckyStrike]

I have a question for those of you that think those guys did the right thing shooting those cops.

Are you gonna shoot the next cop that pulls you over?

If not..Why not?

If all cops are out to rob you. Are you gonna let them?

BBL


Here are my thoughts Ken, I would post the article but it contains html links which I think would be lost with a copy paste.

http://www.truthinourtime.com/2010/07/consent-of-governed-is-being-withdrawn.html

[Liquid]

I have a question for those of you that think those guys did the right thing shooting those cops.

Are you gonna shoot the next cop that pulls you over?

If not..Why not?

If all cops are out to rob you. Are you gonna let them?

BBL


That's a real good question Ken, I doubt you'll get an answer. Goes back to what I was saying....lot's of tough guys on the internet. ;D Very few would back what they post when the situation confronts them in real life.

That's a good thing though. Perhaps that the one saving grace for the internet, it's great to vent 'frustrations'.

[LuckyStrike]

I have a question for those of you that think those guys did the right thing shooting those cops.

Are you gonna shoot the next cop that pulls you over?

If not..Why not?

If all cops are out to rob you. Are you gonna let them?

BBL


Pick your battles, it's the same reason I don't stop paying my taxes right now. Like in most things timing is everything, the time for secession is coming but not yet and I am more valuable to the cause of Freedom alive than dead right now. For example, sure I could get into a gunfight with some cops probably kill quite a few, more if a planned it out but so what so that I could be demonized on the TV and the cause of Freedom given a bad name? How much good would it do to trade my life for 10 or so cops? To me it isn't worth it (doing something like these guys did is never really worth it IMO)

Just like Joe Stack, I mean the guy was wealthy enough to have a plane so I would assume he could've done more for the cause than just trade his life for some IRS janitor. I respect and admire the sentiment however I question it's effectiveness although I think any kind of acts of violence against TPTB certainly gives them pause and makes the line in the sand more defined so people can choose which side they want to be on.

Look at the First and 2nd American Revolutions, they didn't start overnight, far from it.

[Book]

Are you gonna shoot the next cop that pulls you over?



Ever get your Whammy Burger served cold by some rude fast food punk Ken? Before you found Jesus?

:)

[dysgenic]

Not me. I don't want to lose my family or my life over some piss ass piece of change, so I bend down and grab my ankles like everyone else. But that's how they get you.




I have a question for those of you that think those guys did the right thing shooting those cops.

Are you gonna shoot the next cop that pulls you over?

If not..Why not?

If all cops are out to rob you. Are you gonna let them?

BBL

[philo beddoe]

I have a question for those of you that think those guys did the right thing shooting those cops.

Are you gonna shoot the next cop that pulls you over?

If not..Why not?

If all cops are out to rob you. Are you gonna let them?

BBL


Pick your battles, it's the same reason I don't stop paying my taxes right now. Like in most things timing is everything, the time for secession is coming but not yet and I am more valuable to the cause of Freedom alive than dead right now. For example, sure I could get into a gunfight with some cops probably kill quite a few, more if a planned it out but so what so that I could be demonized on the TV and the cause of Freedom given a bad name? How much good would it do to trade my life for 10 or so cops? To me it isn't worth it (doing something like these guys did is never really worth it IMO)

Just like Joe Stack, I mean the guy was wealthy enough to have a plane so I would assume he could've done more for the cause than just trade his life for some IRS janitor. I respect and admire the sentiment however I question it's effectiveness although I think any kind of acts of violence against TPTB certainly gives them pause and makes the line in the sand more defined so people can choose which side they want to be on.

Look at the First and 2nd American Revolutions, they didn't start overnight, far from it.
EXACTLY....was in traffic court recently;;;gave the cop cap...the judge offered to reduce the fine with traffic school from $450 to $200...took it....I would of fought but I already had one point...

[LuckyStrike]

EXACTLY....was in traffic court recently;;;gave the cop cap...the judge offered to reduce the fine with traffic school from $450 to $200...took it....I would of fought but I already had one point...
[/quote]

Man you should see me around cops, they probably think I have a LEO idol in my basement ;D

I have far to many bad experiences with cops and unless you are ready to go all the way your aren't going to win a pissing contest with a cop. Now I just take issues to someone above there paygrade and get stuff resolved there, it's worked extremely well for me thus far.

[Quantum]

But I don't recommend killing cops....most of the time they will win.


"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

No such thing as painless resistance. If it's painless, it ain't resistance.

If the numbers of dead cops enforcing their tyrannical "laws" were to climb, many would start to question, "is this worth it?"

[Quantum]

Well, call me naive...or what haveyou.

To me, Deadly force is only justified when there are lives in danger.



Whenever a cop confronts a citizen, it must be assumed the citizen's life is in danger, based upon an overwhelming preponderance of the evidence from thousands of "unfortunate" incidents of "service and protection" from cops. Cops have a license to kill by simply stating "he was resisting arrest, and I feared for my life."

[Quantum]

I have a question for those of you that think those guys did the right thing shooting those cops.

Are you gonna shoot the next cop that pulls you over?

If not..Why not?

If all cops are out to rob you. Are you gonna let them?

BBL


If it's almost certain to just be a speeding tax, yes, I'll just pay it, or fight in court later. If it's something else, I'll have to judge the situation as it happens. If my wife or kids get unjustly manhandled or Tasered, you better believe I will shoot to KILL.

No pig's life is worth more than any member of my family.

[Quantum]

Just like Joe Stack, I mean the guy was wealthy enough to have a plane so I would assume he could've done more for the cause than just trade his life for some IRS janitor. I respect and admire the sentiment however I question it's effectiveness although I think any kind of acts of violence against TPTB certainly gives them pause and makes the line in the sand more defined so people can choose which side they want to be on.

Look at the First and 2nd American Revolutions, they didn't start overnight, far from it.


Joseph Stack's only mistake was miscalculating the resolve of the American people. He thought they were ripe. They're far from it. The condemnation must go to the American people for not mustering when he engaged in his kamikaze attack. Nearly all, even the "patriots," just sat and clicked the remote control. Most wouldn't even praise the guy.

[Quantum]

Not me. I don't want to lose my family or my life over some piss ass piece of change, so I bend down and grab my ankles like everyone else. But that's how they get you.


It's just money. A small portion of your wealth as "tribute" is not worth your life. A large portion? Maybe. Your home, your health, your freedom, or your life? You better believe lethal force is justified then.

[Saul Mine]

They are not all bad, but they are all in the same business and it's a bad business. Judge a man by the company he keeps.

[iOWNme]

To me, Deadly force is only justified when there are lives in danger.


I don't carry a gun in my car....So I guess i would let them take my "Stuff"

I would however protect my family's life with my life....

To me, there is a difference between "stuff" and a persons life

StackerKen dont you see that PROPERTY is the most important thing to liberty? Why do i want to live with my family if i cannot own property? If i must register, license, insure, permit, submit, etc to be able to then USE my own property 'freely', then guess what my friend, we are living under Communism.

Now, yes there actually people who are willing to fight, defend, and die for their property. Could be their car, could be their cannabis. But all men have a divine right to property. PERIOD. Do you agree?

Now, did these guys have a full understanding of the RESPONSIBILITY it takes to live without being governed? Who knows. (These guys could have been complete idiots, i have no idea) None of us will likely ever get the real story, unless someone here personally knew them.

It is very hard to see a man shoot another man, but that is my human side full of love and compassion. But it is EQUALLY as hard to watch a man submit to another man via fraud, force, and downright authoritarian power.

This is not meant to justify this at all, as you can see from my original post, it is very sad.....On both sides. Multiple men are dead for what they believed was right. And for that alone, we can say both sides died fighting for what they believed in. Honorable either way.

PEACE

[wildcard]

I have a question for those of you that think those guys did the right thing shooting those cops.

Are you gonna shoot the next cop that pulls you over?

If not..Why not?

If all cops are out to rob you. Are you gonna let them?

BBL


That's a real good question Ken, I doubt you'll get an answer. Goes back to what I was saying....lot's of tough guys on the internet. ;D Very few would back what they post when the situation confronts them in real life.

That's a good thing though. Perhaps that the one saving grace for the internet, it's great to vent 'frustrations'.


There's a lot more tough guys when they strap on a badge and a gun. Lately though more of them are getting sent to hell on a shutter. I would guess this will happen more and more. The people have the pigs outnumbered.

[Liquid]

There's a lot more tough guys when they strap on a badge and a gun. Lately though more of them are getting sent to hell on a shutter. I would guess this will happen more and more. The people have the pigs outnumbered.


I suspect you are right to some extent. The people do outnumber the cops, fortunately though, most folks aren't killers. For each cop that gets killed, it affects us all though.

PD reviews tactics, increases arms, after each cop that gets killed...it does lead to more tough guy cops with attitudes. Cops are human, it's human nature. Nobody likes to get shot at.

It a perpetual cycle, and creating even more of a riff between cops and the public. The cop that some idiot shoots at, may pull me or you over next.

It'll get worse, before it gets better. Pretty soon, cops may actually look like stormtroopers. :)

[willie pete]

Does seem like more and more are dropping these days, not too long ago out in Washington, was it Portland? (4), last year I think 3 or 4 in Oakland at one time, now these two in Arkansas, last week there were 2 in Tampa that got it, and they're still looking for that eggplant

[wildcard]

Yeah, how many civvies did the cops kill last year in the "line of duty"? Go ahead and play dress up. It'll just make it easier to spot you.

*the harder they crank down, the more people will resist. We're not unarmed peasants.

[LuckyStrike]

Pretty soon, cops may actually look like stormtroopers. :)


Did you write this back in 1970?

Where have you been?

http://earthhopenetwork.net/police_state_cops_swat_team.jpg

http://www.dvorak.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/swat-team-at-abraxas_145001.jpg

[Liquid]

Yeah, how many civvies did the cops kill last year in the "line of duty"? Go ahead and play dress up. It'll just make it easier to spot you.

*the harder they crank down, the more people will resist. We're not unarmed peasants.


Spot what? What exactly is your paranoid mind looking for?

Cops kill people all the time, in self-defense sometimes, sometimes not. Check out the BART cop video. If you want to put action behind your words, why not come on down to O-town and participate in the protests/riots. Cop killed an unarmed man.

It goes both ways. I'm saying human nature, you can't hide from it.

[Liquid]

Did you write this back in 1970?

Where have you been?

http://earthhopenetwork.net/police_state_cops_swat_team.jpg

http://www.dvorak.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/swat-team-at-abraxas_145001.jpg

When the cop that pulls you over for a traffic ticket, looks like that, you'll agree with me.

I ask you, why do they look like that? Is it for their safety, or yours? Theirs, of course, why do you think that is? Because cops keep getting outgunned and killed, that's why. Like I said, every cop that dies affects us all.

[LuckyStrike]

PD reviews tactics, increases arms, after each cop that gets killed...it does lead to more tough guy cops with attitudes. Cops are human, it's human nature. Nobody likes to get shot at.




You're right people don't like getting shot at. The ones with half a brain will say "hey why is this guy shooting at me?" is it because he is a rabid animal like my instructors taught me or because I am part of a force that oppresses people.

No different than our occupations in the mideast, why do the people set IED's and take potshots? Because they are all lunatic terrorists? Or because they are being occupied by a foreign power?

[Liquid]

You're right people don't like getting shot at. The ones with half a brain will say "hey why is this guy shooting at me?" is it because he is a rabid animal like my instructors taught me or because I am part of a force that oppresses people.

No different than our occupations in the mideast, why do the people set IED's and take potshots? Because they are all lunatic terrorists? Or because they are being occupied by a foreign power?


Exactly Nordic, it's the system that's to blame. Like mrmnh said, his post is bang on.

[LuckyStrike]

You're right people don't like getting shot at. The ones with half a brain will say "hey why is this guy shooting at me?" is it because he is a rabid animal like my instructors taught me or because I am part of a force that oppresses people.

No different than our occupations in the mideast, why do the people set IED's and take potshots? Because they are all lunatic terrorists? Or because they are being occupied by a foreign power?


Exactly Nordic, it's the system that's to blame. Like mrmnh said, his post is bang on.


They are part of the system though, I know they don't realize it, but that is my point they need to wake up and think about it to think about what they are doing. Bending over and getting raped by the police state hasn't been a good strategy thus far.

I don't think every cop is evil, but I do think that they are complicit in mindlessly enforcing immoral and unconstitutional laws. Which makes them guilty. You are either with us or against us. Don't you think that there were "good" brits during the Revolutionary war? Sure there were but if they were great, they would've defected or found a way out.

[philo beddoe]

You're right people don't like getting shot at. The ones with half a brain will say "hey why is this guy shooting at me?" is it because he is a rabid animal like my instructors taught me or because I am part of a force that oppresses people.

No different than our occupations in the mideast, why do the people set IED's and take potshots? Because they are all lunatic terrorists? Or because they are being occupied by a foreign power?


Exactly Nordic, it's the system that's to blame. Like mrmnh said, his post is bang on.


They are part of the system though, I know they don't realize it, but that is my point they need to wake up and think about it to think about what they are doing. Bending over and getting raped by the police state hasn't been a good strategy thus far.

I don't think every cop is evil, but I do think that they are complicit in mindlessly enforcing immoral and unconstitutional laws. Which makes them guilty. You are either with us or against us. Don't you think that there were "good" brits during the Revolutionary war? Sure there were but if they were great, they would've defected or found a way out.
Every last thing the bankers/NWO/globalists/congress does is enforced by a dork in a uniform with a sidearm. EVERY last thing.

[Quantum]

Exactly Nordic, it's the system that's to blame.


"The System" is made up of people. People who "follow orders." People who take advantage of the privileges it dishes out.

Cops are 100%, collectively and individually responsible for "the System" they willingly serve.

If cops stopped enforcing unjust laws, my support for the police would rise proportionally.

[Quantum]

Every last thing the bankers/NWO/globalists/congress does is enforced by a dork in a uniform with a sidearm. EVERY last thing.


QFT!

Obama, Pelosi, Reid, Boehner, McConnell, Paterson, Schwarzenegger, Perry, Daley, Newsom, Bloomberg, etc...every one of these pricks would be HELPLESS and totally IMPOTENT if there were no "law enforcement" to impose their decrees.