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Twisted Titan
12th July 2010, 03:04 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/slavery/ethics/philosophers_1.shtml




Philosophers justifying slavery

Throughout history there have been people who attempted to justify slavery. Many of them did so purely out of self-interest, in order to continue a barbaric trade, but some historical philosophers sought to justify slavery from the best intentions.



Aristotle

The great Greek philosopher, Aristotle, was one of the first. He thought that slavery was a natural thing and that human beings came in two types - slaves and non-slaves.


For that some should rule and others be ruled is a thing not only necessary, but expedient; from the hour of their birth, some are marked out for subjection, others for rule...

Aristotle, Politics

Some people, he said, were born natural slaves and ought to be slaves under any circumstances. Other people were born to rule these slaves, could use these slaves as they pleased and could treat them as property.

Natural slaves were slaves because their souls weren't complete - they lacked certain qualities, such as the ability to think properly, and so they needed to have masters to tell them what to do.

It's clear that Aristotle thinks that slavery was good for those who were born natural slaves, as without masters they wouldn't have known how to run their lives.

In fact Aristotle seems to have thought that slaves were 'living tools' rather like domestic animals, fit only for physical labour.

And indeed the use made of slaves and of tame animals is not very different; for both with their bodies minister to the needs of life.



Aristotle, Politics


Slaves were not totally incapable of thought, but they only needed minimal amount of rational ability; just enough to understand and carry out their duties.

Similarly, slaves were not devoid of 'virtue', but once again, they only needed just enough to carry out their duties. But that 'virtue' was enough for them to be treated as human beings.

Aristotle doesn't provide any sensible practical method of recognising natural slaves, and without that it's inevitable that some people will be made slaves who should not be.

Aristotle also had a category of 'legal slaves'; they weren't natural slaves but through bad luck - perhaps being taken prisoner in war - they just happened to be slaves at a particular time.

Aristotle argued that if the world was just, the legal slaves would be freed, and if any natural slaves were by chance free, they should be made slaves.





Plato

The Greek philosopher Plato thought similarly that it was right for the 'better' to rule over the 'inferior'.

...nature herself intimates that it is just for the better to have more than the worse, the more powerful than the weaker; and in many ways she shows, among men as well as among animals, and indeed among whole cities and races, that justice consists in the superior ruling over and having more than the inferior.

Plato, Gorgias





Homer


Homer seems to have thought that even if a person wasn’t inferior before they became a slave, enslaving them changed them in such a way as to make them a natural slave:

Jove takes half the goodness out of a man when he makes a slave of him.





Christian theologians


St Augustine

The prime cause, then, of slavery is sin, which brings man under the dominion of his fellow -- that which does not happen save by the judgment of God, with whom is no unrighteousness, and who knows how to award fit punishments to every variety of offence.

St Augustine, The City of God, 19:15

St Augustine thought that slavery was inevitable. He didn't think that it was the result of the natural laws of the universe - indeed he thought that in a pure world slavery would be quite unnatural, but in our world it was the consequence of sin and the Fall of Man.

Slavery was unknown, Augustine said, until "righteous" Noah "branded the sin of his son" with that name, and established the principle that the good were entitled to use the sinful.

It is with justice, we believe, that the condition of slavery is the result of sin. And this is why we do not find the word 'slave' in any part of Scripture until righteous Noah branded the sin of his son with this name. It is a name, therefore, introduced by sin and not by nature.



St Augustine, The City of God, 19: 15

Aquinas

for men of outstanding intelligence naturally take command, while those who are less intelligent but of more robust physique, seem intended by nature to act as servants;



Thomas Aquinas, Summa Contra Gentiles

Aquinas largely agreed with Augustine that slavery was the result of the Fall, but he also thought that the universe did have a natural structure that gave some men authority over others.

He justified this by pointing out the hierarchical nature of heaven, where some angels were superior to others.

Aquinas had a much higher opinion of slaves than Aristotle. He considered that slaves had some restricted rights.

A son, as such, belongs to his father, and a slave, as such, belongs to his master; yet each, considered as a man, is something having separate existence and distinct from others. Hence in so far as each of them is a man, there is justice towards them in a way: and for this reason too there are certain laws regulating the relations of father to his son, and of a master to his slave; but in so far as each is something belonging to another, the perfect idea of "right" or "just" is wanting to them.




Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica

And while it was perfectly acceptable for a master to hit a slave, it might be better to be merciful


since the child is subject to the power of the parent, and the slave to the power of his master, a parent can lawfully strike his child, and a master his slave that instruction may be enforced by correction...

The command that masters should forbear from threatening their slaves may be understood in two ways. First that they should be slow to threaten, and this pertains to the moderation of correction; secondly, that they should not always carry out their threats, that is that they should sometimes by a merciful forgiveness temper the judgment whereby they threatened punishment.


Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica

iOWNme
12th July 2010, 06:16 PM
Very good read T.....

Seems man since day 1, has had another man attempting to force him against his own free will, on various levels and degrees. And it is always justified by the elite in all countries and times. Using everything from race to class to achieve it.

I often wonder what kind of man wants to have power over another? Kops, Government, Military, etc. I find myself so opposite of that for some reason......

MAGNES
12th July 2010, 06:23 PM
You have zero context.

Aristotle spoke to many topics,
he invented the entire University Curriculum for one,
student of Plato, they invented schools, tutor to
Alexander, spread knowledge, freed people, created
schools and the Hellenistic Age. I had a quote in sig
about fiat money.

Also he was a man of his age. Just like a generation
before us were all racist slave masters keeping the
black man down, etc .

Slavery back then was more indentured servitude,
in the ancient world in Greece was nothing like the
slavery people are aware of like black chattel slaves
in the USA brought from Africa.

In Athens one could walk the streets and you
couldn't tell the difference who was a slave and
who was a master. Also slaves, many were businessmen
and they were wealthier than their masters,
many traders and merchants were slaves.
Almost all slaves, even in Rome which was far
more brutal to people and slaves, slaves could buy their
way out after a few years of service. Slaves were
protected by law too, Rome differed on that though.

The slaves were fellow countrymen. Usually they got
in some sort of trouble. Or taken as prisoners of war.

I am speaking in general.

Some prisoners of war were treated brutally,
from an enemy state, depending on which,
they may be put to work in the silver mines,
that was brutal work, lifespans were short.

Solon the creator of State Democracy, our Western Father,
creator of Republicanism, Separation of Powers, institutionalization
of democracy, juries, justice, first thing he did was destroy the
debt stones and in doing destroyed the Oligarchy ruling the
place having enslaved many, debt bondage was real, all were
freed, no more slaves, banished Dracos laws, "draconian", etc,

The USA is in that situation now.

Debt bondage and draconian corrupt laws and state.

Where is Solon. ?

Book
12th July 2010, 06:25 PM
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2490/3722738014_04ec577f4f.jpg

What society has no hierarchy or shit jobs at the bottom? There is a reason for that Pyramid logo everywhere since forever: Hierarchy.

:oo-->

MAGNES
12th July 2010, 06:28 PM
LOL , the rest of the world back then was far worse.

1000 AD Northern Europeans were still sacrificing people for one.

BBC, communist central, with no context what they posted is
meaningless and disinfo propaganda.

The Greeks and the far more brutal Romans were actually recording
human sacrifice by the Phoenicians and others back then to Baal.
What do you think they did and thought of their own slaves ?

Book
12th July 2010, 06:32 PM
The Greeks and the far more brutal Romans were actually recording
human sacrifice by the Phoenicians and others back then to Baal.
What do you think they did and thought of their own slaves ?



http://www.impawards.com/2006/posters/apocalypto_ver2.jpg

Old as "humanity" itself...lol.

:D

MAGNES
12th July 2010, 06:41 PM
Another major point to the students here.

Quoting Plato, it is very easy to quote Plato out of
context in general, the NeoCons used his ideas to
justify their NeoConism, lying to the masses, etc,
the Philosopher King, etc, they do take him out
of context totally, one could also paint Plato a
communist, but he demolishes totalitarianism
with one line, when discussing his utopian society
where you have a Philosopher King running the place,
the very important thing to remember it is all
dialogues, it is not what is said but the process
that is important, because in many cases we don't
know what Plato himself believes, expecially when
he records Socrates, that ain't even Plato speaking,
but the dialogues of Socrates, it is not what is said,
it is the process. Teaching people to think and question.

Don't forget Plato's Cave, and ancient version of The Matrix.
Seen various versions of it online.

Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, students of each other,
all very democratic and pro education of the masses,
these ideas and philosophies created the Hellenistic Age.
They opened schools for foreign peoples and even girls.

ximmy
12th July 2010, 06:43 PM
Good post TT...

MAGNES
12th July 2010, 06:49 PM
Old as "humanity" itself...lol.

:D


No doubt, the ancient world was a brutal place,
white washing history serves no purpose.

But some context was important on an important subject,
people are easily misled.

Anyone want to pick my brain, feel free, I have sources too.
Just did some review last summer and this with some historical
podcasts since I spend lots of time in my vehicle running around.

Someone here tell me why "masters" had wealthy slaves/traders/merchants. ? ? ?

I referred to this many times, starts with Hesiod and even the Founding Fathers
ripped him off totally verbatim, where does freedom come from ?

Someone answer this question ? Hesiod Works and Days is 100 pages, lol .
Referred to many times.

The Founding Fathers of the USA had slaves and therefore
everything and anything they do to the USA and it's people
is justified, this is the kind of propaganda I see regularly.

The Greeks are the number one targets of this type of propaganda as well.
Those 3 men above are the core of the Western World. It ain't Athens.

Hatha Sunahara
12th July 2010, 08:20 PM
How has anything changed since ancient times?

We no longer recognize ownership of slaves. But we do recognize 'debt slavery'. Just sign on the dotted line. We'll lend you money and you'll never be able to repay it.

There are really two kinds of people. Those who sell their freedom for debt, and those who can plan their lives by saving and deferring gratification, and avoiding going into debt at all cost.

And I agree, there are some people who need to be told what to do. They cannot grasp what needs doing themselves. It is the smart, organized, well disciplined and brutal people who rule the earth. They provide the direction and mental capability to reach their goals, and they pay those who need to be told what to do enough to live on, even enough to allow them to demonstrate they can save and think for themselves. Very few who work for a living can demonstrate they are capable of saving money and thinking for themselves.

Yes, I know it is brutal, and unfair and anti-egalitarian. But look around and see with your eyes and your mind instead of with your ideals. Once you see what's there, the problem becomes one of not becoming too greedy. The slaves won't mind if you're just a little bit greedy. And if you're doing their thinking for them, you better do a good job. The slaves don't care too much about disorder. They need to live in a neat, orderly world where they know their place. And always remember, they are humans--not farm animals. They all have the full range of human emotions, despite their limited intellectual capacity. The French had a phrase for this attitude: Noblesse Oblige. Today, that spirit seems to be missing.


Hatha

Skirnir
12th July 2010, 08:46 PM
It seems as if industrialisation has obfuscated society's true nature. Man has always been as wolves unto man (Plautus), what makes the modern era so unique?

Gaillo
12th July 2010, 11:47 PM
This is all I know...
Abraham Lincoln made slaves of ALL of us with the 13th and 14th amendments... no black (or white) person in their right mind would EVER think of Lincoln as "the great emancipator"!

Twisted Titan
13th July 2010, 02:00 PM
Great info Magnes

Do you have any links on Solan???


T

7th trump
13th July 2010, 02:25 PM
This is all I know...
Abraham Lincoln made slaves of ALL of us with the 13th and 14th amendments... no black (or white) person in their right mind would EVER think of Lincoln as "the great emancipator"!



Lincoln did what he had to do.
Whats wrong on all parts to say that Lincoln made slaves out of all of us is that it wasnt Lincolns choice to come up with the 13th and 14th amendments.
Those amendments came about because of the then current union states. The southern states as well as the northern states didnt accept the negroe, once free, as an equal to the whites. See 42USC 1982 and 1983 and 1984.
Yea they were free, but Texas as well as Iowa and all the northern states in as much as the southern states didnt look at a negroe in Texas as a Texan or an Iowan in Iowa.
All the Civil War did was abolish forced enslavement..................it didnt make the negroe an equal to the whites in regards to having Rights. Hence the Civil Rights Act of 1866 to this day!
No individual union state Constitution was changed to accept the negroe as a state citizen. So the 14th amendment was adopted by the feds for the federal US Constitution and forced on all the states to change their constitutions to reflect the 14th amendment since the states wouldnt do it on their own.
The 14th prohibits states from encroaching on the rights.


Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Do you understand that if the negroe was accepted by the union states as an equal to the whites would the bold be written in the 14th?
NO.........it wouldnt be. Infact none of the 13th or 14th or the Civil Rights Act of 1866 ever have been neccessary.

MAGNES
14th July 2010, 05:51 PM
Great info Magnes

Do you have any links on Solan???

T


Thanks for the question, I was expecting something harder
to challenge what I was saying, it is all out there, the ancient
world was brutal, I don't minimize that at all.

Something very important, the students in succession, Socrates,
Plato, Aristotle, Alexander/Macedonians, Plato apparently is a blood
relative of Solon, very interesting and very relevant.

Today they tell you that democracy is an Athenian invention, that is
not true, the institutionalization of democratic ideas and governance
on a grand scale happened in Athens and Solon is the creator here,
that is true, Republicanism and Separation of Powers, etc, this was
done by Solon to ensure no degeneration to old ways, just the way
the USA was designed to protect the Republic and Freedoms.
But it didn't last , lol .

There is information everywhere that is real and not contested.
Almost any work that gives you an overview of Ancient Greek
history discusses him, if it does not throw it away, lol, lots of
stuff online too.

N G L Hammond is my greatest teacher and greatest authority,
read many of his books, looked at all, too numerous, writes a
very good overview of Ancient Greek history to 323 BC. Many
here would enjoy much of the information from Hammond.
Pick up a few books from the library and see how they handle
Solon 600 BC, they are all different.

What may be contested is the legend, Athena and chariot rides
into Athens carrying Solon who does Zues's justice and destroys
the Oligarchy, tyranny back then meant "one man rule", Solon was
Tyrant for a while. An inspiration to Plato and his Philosopher Kings
writings, but that does not last, Plato himself comments he would
not exist and would be killed. There are numerous references to
Solon everywhere you read. The Founding Fathers knew him as a
key person and if you read about Solon you will know what they
took from him in detail. Slaying unjust tyrants was a pastime of
the Greeks along the line of "watering the tree of liberty" also.
Winged Victory wielded by Athena and Nemesis represent this too.
It is all inter related.


SOME SLAVES OF PAST

I had some info I was going to put out, been working,

"Rome the enslaver was forever enslaved", along those lines.

Slaves actually did that to Rome, lol, after Rome totally destroyed
and looted Greece of everything especially slaves. The slaves took
over, lol . Half the Romans were Greeks and invited in by Greeks,
so don't blame Italians okay. Brutal stupid history that only stopped
with muslim arab invasions.

If you are interested in this I will put up some MP3's and give references.

There is no doubt there was a lot of brutal events and brutal slavery in past.
Some perspective was in order.

DMac
14th July 2010, 06:05 PM
Rise of Democracy: Solon's Constitution (http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/democracy/a/050510SolonsConstitution.htm)


"Such power I gave the people as might do, Abridged not what they had, now lavished new. Those that were great in wealth and high in place, My counsel likewise kept from all disgrace. Before them both I held my shield of might, And let not either touch the other's right."

Plutarch's Life of Solon

(emphasis mine)


When land was mortgaged, stone markers (hektemoroi) were placed on the land to show the amount of debt. During the seventh century, these markers proliferated. The poorer, wheat farmers lost their land. Laborers were free men who paid out one sixth of all they produced. In the years of poor harvests, this wasn't enough to survive. To feed themselves and their families, laborers put up their bodies as collateral to borrow from their employers. Exorbitant interest plus living on less than five sixths of what was produced made it impossible to repay loans. Free men were being sold into slavery. At the point at which a tyrant or revolt seemed likely, the Athenians appointed Solon to mediate.


Solon, the first Athenian literary figure whose name we know, came from an aristocratic family which traced its ancestry back ten generations to Hercules, according to Plutarch. Aristocratic beginnings did not prevent him from fearing that someone of his class would try to become tyrant. In his reform measures, Solon pleased neither the revolutionaries who wanted the land redistributed nor the landowners who wanted to keep all their property intact. Instead, Solon instituted the seisachtheia by which he canceled all pledges where a man's freedom had been given as guarantee, freed all debtors from bondage, made it illegal to enslave debtors*, and put a limit on the amount of land an individual could own.

Plutarch records Solon's own words about his actions:

The mortgage-stones that covered her, by me Removed, -- the land that was a slave is free;
that some who had been seized for their debts he had brought back from other countries, where
--so far their lot to roam, They had forgot the language of their home;
and some he had set at liberty,--
Who here in shameful servitude were held.

source (http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/democracy/a/050510SolonsConstitution.htm)

There is more to the article at the link.

MAGNES
14th July 2010, 10:42 PM
There is more to the article at the link.



Thanks for the article, Solon's achievements are painted in a
far more dramatic way in history books, "smashed the debt stones",
"abolished debt bondage", one order after another in very short
order, removing the Oligarchy from power, "this is how it is" ,
like the USA being created by one guy, lol, the entire state.

Plutarch's Lives is one of the most important works ever written.

TT, courtesy of Dmac, there is your short answer, read Plutarch's Lives for one.

They are fast easy reads, you don't need to start at the beginning,
you pick a period or a person, they are presented in contrast or
comparison to other lives. They are biographies so they may lack
lots of historical information, new discoveries, etc, many free versions
online. Many references to slavery in all the works as well.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/home.html

Cato the Elder was very concerned about all the Greek slaves taking over
the educational system, introducing Rhetoric, Tragedy, influencing Roman
elite and people, teaching them to think and question, lol .
Just did a podcast historical lesson on Rome/Greece, comparison.
Wasn't great but worth listening to in background. Did that last
summer too, for review and learning new things.

The author quotes a prof of classics, "you can learn more about the
ancient world reading Plutarch's Lives than you can reading the entire
library of congress" , lol . I'll get you the names and references, MP3
if you want.

silver solution
15th July 2010, 01:28 AM
LOL , the rest of the world back then was far worse.

1000 AD Northern Europeans were still sacrificing people for one.


Prove that if you can?

Some people would say that today that the elites are still sacrificing people today. I would say they are still doing it now but not sure it that was really going on in Northern Europe back then. I would think no unless they were Jews.

Agrippa
15th July 2010, 05:03 AM
We live in a world where slavery is at the least possible, and can be made nearly ubiquitous. Those who claim to be against the practice generally seem to prefer the latter....