Unemployment benefit extension opinions?

[EE_]

Looks like it will pass.
Should they be extending this benefit during this economic depression?
Or should these lazy ass Americans that paid into UI get off their dead asses and take any low paying shit job.

Does anyone have any info on how much was paid into this insurance by employers/employees during the last 20 years of boom times as compared to what was paid out during this same period?

[Apparition]

Yep, the extension bill will likely pass.

Should benefits be extended? No, and my answer is no due to the fact that there's no constitutional basis for such a program at the federal level. State-level? Yes, although I'd still oppose but it's preferable to having a centralized government have such power to do so.

In addition, welfare benefits have been extended longer than they were supposed to be and allowing them to remain would exacerbate the dependency culture that has been developing since the 1930s.

[Book]

http://www3.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Bernanke+Cox+Testify+Senate+Hearing+Recent+0uldvNE fmZ2l.jpg

Congress handed Paulson and Bernanke trillions to give to Wall Street. We now "own" 80% of AIG trash paper.

:oo-->

[Uncle Salty]

It's a good thing.

Our middle class has been exported to the third world by our Fascist business model whereby corporate America and government conspire to get rich off the back of slave labor at the expense of American jobs.

There are no "shiiitty ass" jobs for those on UI to get. Don't kid yourself.

We are headed for the mother of all depressions. Might as well keep the people fed. Otherwise, you get riots, crime, looting, social unrest, etc...

As for the deficit. Who cares. The US dollar is toast regardless. No way out of this one.

[EE_]

Yep, the extension bill will likely pass.

Should benefits be extended? No, and my answer is no due to the fact that there's no constitutional basis for such a program at the federal level. State-level? Yes, although I'd still oppose but it's preferable to having a centralized government have such power to do so.

In addition, welfare benefits have been extended longer than they were supposed to be and allowing them to remain would exacerbate the dependency culture that has been developing since the 1930s.


Yeah, I guess you're right...the money will be better spent sending aid to places like Israel and Pakistan then on Americans that paid into this insurance scam...during a Depression.
Just keep saying "Recovery, Recovery, Recovery" and it will come true.

Clinton Announces Massive Aid for Pakistan’s People
http://www.america.gov/st/develop-english/2010/July/20100719151821dmslahrellek0.393841.html

Washington — Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton announced a series of U.S. commitments to projects in Pakistan aimed at improving agricultural development, electric power generation, dams, new hospital construction, and programs to help empower women.

Clinton told reporters following the U.S.-Pakistan Strategic Dialogue that the projects reaffirm the United States’ long-term commitment to improve security, protect the Pakistani people, help drive economic development, and strengthen Pakistani democratic institutions. The assistance also is designed to help end a legacy of mistrust, she added.

Many of the new assistance projects are part of a previously approved $7.5 billion in U.S. civilian aid spread over a five-year period that was announced by President Obama in 2009.

Under a three-year, $28 million Signature Health Program for Pakistan, the United States and Pakistan have consulted on Pakistan’s National Health Policy, which outlines the priorities for the nation, including family planning, mother and child health, workforce development, and combating infectious diseases to meet the U.N. Millennium Development Goals. As part of the program, the United States will take on three projects to renovate and build medical facilities.

The United States will finance the design and construction of a 60-bed obstetrics and gynecology surgical ward and training institute for up to 150 medical students at the Karachi Jinnah Post Graduate Medical Center. The hospital currently handles more than 18,000 inpatients and 31,000 outpatients, more than 5,000 operations and 17,000 annual deliveries. And the United States will help renovate new wards, a midwifery school and doctor and nursing residential facilities at the Lahore Lady Willingdon Hospital, the largest maternity hospital in Pakistan.

Clinton also announced that the United States will provide technical management assistance and renovations to the Jacobabad Civil Hospital that serves a population of about 1 million people in northern Sindh and Balochistan.

WATER AND AGRICULTURAL PROGRAMS

Clinton announced a multi-year Signature Water Program to improve the country’s ability to efficiently manage its water resources and improve water distribution. The first phase of the program will cover seven projects costing more than $270 million.

The projects included in this phase are: Jacobabad and Peshawar municipal water projects; municipal services delivery; Gomal Zam Dam irrigation project; Satpara Dam project; high-efficiency irrigation project; Balochistan water storage dams; and expert consultations.

The United States is providing $21 million for projects supported by the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) that will help improve Pakistan’s farm productivity and open new market opportunities, Clinton said. The first project supports a public-private partnership designed to improve the ability of women to manage rural dairy-related businesses and conduct business domestically and internationally.

The second project promotes the export by sea of Pakistan’s mangos. USAID will support a three-year infrastructure program in partnership with leading mango farms in the southern Punjab and northern Sindh provinces to jointly finance infrastructure such as hot water treatment facilities, sorting and grading machines, blast chillers and cold storage facilities.

Clinton also announced several government-to-government partnerships with Pakistan that will strengthen cooperation in new information technologies, enhance mutual understanding between diplomats and support the preservation of Pakistan’s national heritage. The projects range from data centers to citizen electronic services to historic archives preservation and other historic preservation efforts.

The United States also announced a series of programs to promote private sector-led economic growth and job creation that is part of the government economic-reform program. The programs will be administered by USAID, the U.S. Overseas Private Investment Corporation (OPIC), the U.S. Commerce Department, and the U.S. Trade & Development Agency (TDA).

ENERGY PROGRAM

Clinton announced the second phase of the Signature Energy Program for Pakistan that will provide an additional $60 million for seven projects that will be implemented by USAID, TDA, Commerce and the U.S. Geological Survey. Projects include power house and transmission components in South Waziristan; a dam project in Satpara; natural gas assistance; a smart grid and distribution modernization study; a biomass-fueled boiler feasibility study for the Bulleh Shah Paper Mill; a study of the Gharol Corridor wind farm’s feasibility; and a study to assess the technical, financial and economic feasibility of installing solar power systems in hundreds of private schools administered by the Beaconhouse Group and owned by Educational Services Limited, the largest private educational services company in Pakistan.

A new five-year, $40 million Gender Equity Program to be funded by USAID is aimed at advancing women’s rights and empowerment in Pakistan. The project will expand women’s access to justice, help women exercise their rights in the workplace, the community and their homes, and combat gender-based violence.

Clinton also announced $120 million for four programs to help Pakistanis affected by conflict to re-establish their lives in their home areas.

[Apparition]

Yeah, I guess you're right...the money will be better spent sending aid to places like Israel and Pakistan then on Americans that paid into this insurance scam...during a Depression.
Just keep saying "Recovery, Recovery, Recovery" and it will come true.

Hmm, I don't remember being supportive of taxpayers funding foreign aid, which is also unconstitutional, or believing that a recovery is ahead.

I would, however, support allowing the recession to run its course and would prefer that the govt. cut spending and taxes so that the income earners could spend their incomes however they wish but that's never going to transpire.

[EE_]

Yeah, I guess you're right...the money will be better spent sending aid to places like Israel and Pakistan then on Americans that paid into this insurance scam...during a Depression.
Just keep saying "Recovery, Recovery, Recovery" and it will come true.

Hmm, I don't remember being supportive of taxpayers funding foreign aid, which is also unconstitutional, or believing that a recovery is ahead.

I would, however, support allowing the recession to run its course and would prefer that the govt. cut spending and taxes so that the income earners could spend their incomes however they wish but that's never going to transpire.


How could anything "run it's cource" when you have no free markets and a totally corrupt system?

[Apparition]

Yeah, I guess you're right...the money will be better spent sending aid to places like Israel and Pakistan then on Americans that paid into this insurance scam...during a Depression.
Just keep saying "Recovery, Recovery, Recovery" and it will come true.

Hmm, I don't remember being supportive of taxpayers funding foreign aid, which is also unconstitutional, or believing that a recovery is ahead.

I would, however, support allowing the recession to run its course and would prefer that the govt. cut spending and taxes so that the income earners could spend their incomes however they wish but that's never going to transpire.


How could anything "run it's cource" when you have no free markets and a totally corrupt system?


Of course I'd also prefer massive deregulation of most anything regulated by Congress, abolition of the Federal Reserve and most federal agencies, amending the Constitution to prevent anything from being construed as a means to regulate anything, placing further restraints on Congress, ending the empire, etc.

Obviously none of the above will likely transpire.

So, what's to be done? Considering the predicament we're already in, the only the option available is to prepare for the inevitable economic collapse.

Oh, and pray--if it'll help at all.

[Phoenix]

Or should these lazy ass Americans that paid into UI get off their dead asses and take any low paying sh*t job.


Why don't you get a clue, and realize these "low paying shit jobs" aren't available?

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Outofwork-job-applicants-told-cnnm-3498252371.html?x=0

Are you protesting equally vociferously against all military funding bills? (I highly doubt it)

[Phoenix]

Should benefits be extended? No, and my answer is no due to the fact that there's no constitutional basis for such a program at the federal level. State-level? Yes, although I'd still oppose but it's preferable to having a centralized government have such power to do so.


Every dollar given to the People is one less dollar for the Military-Industrial Complex.

How much does the UI extension cost? A mere fraction of what is being blown on the wars.

[1970 silver art]

The Congress people that are voting to not pass the Unemployment extension benefits because they say that it will add to the Federal deficits is a very weak excuse.

What's a few billion dollars added to a multi-trillion dollar deficit? It seems to me that we are going to probably add another $1 Trillion (or more) to the Federal deficits anyway.

They are going to pass the unemployment benefit extension but I think that we are going to be in this same situation in November but I am not sure on that.

[Celtic Rogue]

We as a Nation are broke... our industry was sent overseas... Bankers set up to buy the US for pennies on the dollar.

The people who guided us here need to be hung for treason of the highest order. Vote all career politicians out and remove all military contractors from business, bring the troops home and close all of our foreign bases. Then maybe the people can benefit from our nations intrinsic wealth and not the bankers and such. Cut and shrink government...

I feel for all those unemployed without any prospect of ever being employed... but I am barely feeding my family and myself... I cant afford to pay a penny more to support anything this government does.

[jaybone]

It will pass so home "owners" and renters through their landlord will be able to continue paying the usury on their mortgages.
It is a money laundering operation.

There is no political will for direct bailouts, so it's an indirect bailout via the dole.

Rent/mortgage is a huge part of most people's budget, if they wanted to help out everybody, then suspend interest on mortgages for 1-2 years.

UI is just another bailout for the banking system.

IMO, after 6 months of UI, one should have to pick up trash, deliver meals on wheels, read to kids/elderly, etc.
Sometimes just doing something can lead to opportunities for work.

[Silver Rocket Bitches!]

More kicking the can down the road. The longer they keep doing this, the worse it will be in the end.

I do not want to see people desperate and starving but it will happen eventually.

[Uncle Salty]

Or should these lazy ass Americans that paid into UI get off their dead asses and take any low paying sh*t job.


Why don't you get a clue, and realize these "low paying sh*t jobs" aren't available?

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Outofwork-job-applicants-told-cnnm-3498252371.html?x=0

Are you protesting equally vociferously against all military funding bills? (I highly doubt it)


I say we close all bases around the world. Bring the troops home. Return to honest money. Limit the power of corporations.

Until then, give the unemployed some money for food and shelter.

[chad]

there's no saving any of it at this point anyway, so you might as well at least feed people.

[iOWNme]

Isnt it funny that the people of the several states will not get together and help fund state benefits for each other. But they will gladly go to the Federal Government and take another 'Free' handout.

Dont they realize when you deal with the Federal Government NOTHING IS FREE.

And you wonder why anyone in any of the 50 States think they are somehow autonomous to the Federal Government. ALL STATES have taken 'Benefits, Privileges and Monies' from the Federal Government. You dont think that contracts werent created giving up certain individual and autonomous State issues? Riiiiiight.....

[Twisted Titan]

If only the people who got such money would use just a shred of it to by a few preps they would be head and shoulders above the rest.


The Begining of Sorrows is at hand.


T

[Phoenix]

If only the people who got such money would use just a shred of it to by a few preps they would be head and shoulders above the rest.


The Begining of Sorrows is at hand.


T


Unfortunately, for most people, the weekly UI benefit is about 75% of bare minimum living costs (housing, food, utilities, other essentials) for the average American. And "live more cheaply" is easily said, very hard to be done, for most people. People can hardly think of the future, let alone plan for it, since they are forced to live in the now on economic terms.

[Mouse]

If you want a job as a pharmacy guy (and have the quals for it) at Wal-mart, or if you want to work at Pizza Hut or Mcdonalds, you can get a job within 50 miles of where I live.

I don't think that it's unreasonable to throw some scratch for the free range chickens.

I don't agree with the system, but what if all these people had nothing for nothing. It would make an impact. And I also agree it's a subsidy to the banks because that's where most of it is going. These people are paying mortgages and cards and debt and then scrambling for food and necessities.

It has to collapse.

Disclosure: I am looking for a yob. And it ain't fun times out there looking.

[jetgraphics]

Should they be extending this benefit during this economic depression?
Or should these lazy ass Americans that paid into UI get off their dead asses and take any low paying sh*t job.

Unemployment "benefit" is nothing but charity from the public treasury. Anyone who accepts charity from the public treasury is a pauper. A pauper is one of the excluded classes, enumerated in 1777. The excluded classes are also known as "status criminals" - guilty for what they are - not for what they did to another person or their property.

Since 1933, and the bankruptcy of the Federal government, the "system" has operated under a perpetual "temporary" state of emergency - no lawful money!

The problem with taking a "low paying job" is that inequity in the American system penalizes the productive worker for the benefit of the unproductive consumer (i.e., government, recipients, etc.).
When the socialist / usurer overhead eats 45 - 60 % of a worker's buying power, it is impractical to expect prosperity or even subsistence at the bottom of the rung.

Though many decry the foreign workers who get paid "only" pennies a day, no one seems to connect the dots.
That foreign worker can hire his fellow countrymen for "only" pennies a day, too. Without context, the comparison is meaningless.

The politically incorrect solution is not to bribe the electorate with more charity, but to dismantle the socialist system, and shrink government by 90 - 96%. Then workers will enjoy equitable trade, regardless of their respective wages.

[Ash_Williams]

Every dollar given to the People is one less dollar for the Military-Industrial Complex.

Not really. It's the same amount of dollars to the military and one extra dollar on the debt.



If you want a job as a pharmacy guy (and have the quals for it) at Wal-mart, or if you want to work at Pizza Hut or Mcdonalds, you can get a job within 50 miles of where I live.

People get more on UI than if they take a fast-food job.

I'm have conflicted views on how difficult it is to get a job. I know there's been a ton of layoffs and they continue, but on the other hand there's now 4 jobs available where I work. I have to do interviews for one of them. I have the same problem as the other departments in that the applicants are all idiots. I get resume after resume with spelling mistakes on them. They get thrown in the trash along with the one with grammar mistakes. I don't expect perfection all the time from everyone, but a resume is where perfection counts and if people don't realize that or can't deliver then frankly they don't deserve a good job.

I get resumes in Word format... and MS Word underlines most of the mistakes in red! These people are so lazy, they could not be bothered to put their mouse over that red line and just pick the correct spelling from a list? I don't want them working here.

Some make it to the testing stage. The test is not hard. I could give it to most of my friends, with any background, and they would be able to do very well. Anyone who has set foot in a high school should be able to pass - but the applicants fail terribly. If you can not add two 3-digit numbers given a pencil and a paper, you don't deserve a good job. One of the questions is no harder than reading an analog clock, still the applicants usually get it wrong. The mistakes are idiotic as well... if you do the math on a question and find out that going from point A to point B in 1 hour means you were averaging -66 mph, and you don't realize the negative means you should check your numbers, then you should be working somewhere for minimum wage instead of applying for a real job.

I would hire anyone with a brain, but the problem is people with brains still have jobs because they were not laid off. What we are finding is that the people who were let go were probably useless to begin with.

[Book]

then you should be working somewhere for minimum wage instead of applying for a real job.



http://coto2.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/minimum_wage-increase.jpg

Minimum wage should be a living wage. Anything that cannot support basic food and housing isn't a living wage. The notion that Americans should accept something less than basic food and housing while BILLIONAIRES get tax cuts is right out of the Talmud.
:oo-->

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3107/2533279463_cd86d067f5.jpg

[Phoenix]

Not sure how it happened, and I'm not complaining, since the thanks were deserved, but my thanks for Book's post is in triplicate:

[ximmy]

Not sure how it happened, and I'm not complaining, since the thanks were deserved, but my thanks for Book's post is in triplicate:




how did you do that?

[Phoenix]

Not sure how it happened, and I'm not complaining, since the thanks were deserved, but my thanks for Book's post is in triplicate:




how did you do that?


I wish I knew! ;D

[Ponce]

I am sorry to say that it will pass and by doing that it will alongate the suffering of the American people, when there is no bread on the table a revolution will take place.................by extending the aid that will give the government time to get better situated for what is to come and who knows, even give them time to take away your guns...........nothing is for free any longer and everything is done for a reason.

[Phoenix]

I am sorry to say that it will pass and by doing that it will alongate the suffering of the American people


Nice to see you have more compassion for the Palestinians than ordinary Americans.

NO REVOLUTION IS COMING.

Every dollar we don't get out of the US Government is a dollar lost to the MIC.

[jetgraphics]

Minimum wage should be a living wage. Anything that cannot support basic food and housing isn't a living wage. The notion that Americans should accept something less than basic food and housing while BILLIONAIRES get tax cuts...

Actually, that's EXACTLY what "TPTB" wants you to demand : basic food and housing.

They want you to toil your life, as a voluntary serf, for their benefit. They don't want you to prosper, absolutely owning ALL your labor and ALL you trade that labor for. They're enemies of private property ownership. And the enemy is not the "billionaires" (who are actually minus trillionaires) nor any other sweeping generalization you may harbor a dislike for.

You may be misled to assume that a "living wage" is the solution, but it is not.

The underlying problem is inequitable trade.

In the most simplest terms, how much does it cost you to hire the equivalent of yourself?

If you were earning a "living wage", how much more do you have to spend to hire yourself?
Double? Triple? Much more?
(I know, for example, that in 1990, a computer tech was paid $10/hour, while his employer billed $42/hour. So for that tech to hire the equivalent of himself, he'd need more than 4 hours of labor to purchase one hour of labor. That's inequitable.)

Tis madness, utter madness, to be enraptured by money volume while ignoring the infestation of parasites upon the body productive (not the body politic).

That's why denouncing foreign employers who pay "pennies per day" is absurd. For if one can hire labor for "pennies per day", those same workers can hire other workers for "pennies per day". In short, equitable trade is the basis for prosperity - not the inflated volume of money tokens paid in a socialist / usurer dominated economy.

The repeated attack on {your favorite whipping boy here} is evidence of "their" victory, for you are wasting your time chasing the wrong opponent.

According to their law, in the public record, the #1 enemy is looking back at you in the mirror.
Until you withdraw consent, leave national socialism, abhor usury, restore your status at law, THEY have your consent to enslave you.

[Ponce]

About those with unemployment.........work for the state for three days doing what ever and the other two days to look for a job ..........everyone is a winner...........Phoenix? I already know what you are so stop trying to go against me, you are only a Jr.

[Phoenix]

Phoenix? I already know what you are so stop trying to go against me, you are only a Jr.


What? English, please.

Have I shown insufficient deference to the self-proclaimed deity of Ponce?

[Phoenix]

You may be misled to assume that a "living wage" is the solution, but it is not.

The underlying problem is inequitable trade.


And the solution is Autarky.

Your "capitalism" and "free trade" schemes have FAILED the American people, and that's the only people I give a damn about on this issue.

Americans cannot compete against coolie wages and living conditions. You know that.



leave national socialism


I wish we HAD "National Socialism."

[Book]

Tis madness, utter madness, to be enraptured by money volume while ignoring the infestation of parasites upon the body productive (not the body politic).



http://getyourbizsavvy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/billionaires.bmp

http://blog.mlive.com/business_impact/2008/10/large_102908-federal-reserve-2.jpg

None of these unproductive PARASITES support a minimum wage...lol.

:oo-->

[FreeEnergy]

If you were earning a "living wage", how much more do you have to spend to hire yourself?
Double? Triple? Much more?
(I know, for example, that in 1990, a computer tech was paid $10/hour, while his employer billed $42/hour. So for that tech to hire the equivalent of himself, he'd need more than 4 hours of labor to purchase one hour of labor. That's inequitable.)

Tis madness, utter madness, to be enraptured by money volume while ignoring the infestation of parasites upon the body productive (not the body politic).


That's Capitalism (Financial Oligarchy) for ya!

Ok, I have to correct here. If a technician is paid $10/hour, he can be profitable for a company only at about x 2.2 times billing rate, i.e. the company has to bill at $22/hr or more to be profitable.

I'll tell ya what. Lockheed Martin. MIC, as someone mentioned. Here's the corrupt business they are in. They bill Social Security administration - for instance, but this is very close and fairly accurate information - $360/hour. Then they turn around, and subcontract every worker to a Consulting firm for $180/hr. Doing absolutely nothing, just milking SSI dry. The Consulting company turns around and subcontracts this to yet smaller consulting companies for $50-80 per hour. Some of these turn around and subcontract H1-B visa contractors from India for $20-35 per hour.

Lokheed martin - they don't need to make anything fly at all, at this mad crazy money they are making out of taxes we all send in.

The above is utter madness, and it is true. And nobody polices this.

[TPTB]

Lokheed martin - they don't need to make anything fly at all, at this mad crazy money they are making out of taxes we all send in.


Excellent post... and you know these same white collar capitalist glutton pigs are thick as thieves in every corporate sector, not merely the MIC directly, sucking and slurping away while at the same time condemning and mocking the unemployed for being stupid lazy socialists.

They love massive unemployment. It makes it easy to find people to do their labor while they continue to profit.

But ultimately I agree with jetgraphics; it's Usury that is the problem. A system of Usury that not only encourages such heartless thievery, but nurtures it... demands it.

It's kind of like the nuclear bomb... once it's been invented and placed into the system, nobody can figure out how to unmake it.

The math... the simple demonic math of compound interest(exponential growth) in a system of Usury is THE weapon of mass destruction we have been economically blowing up one civilization after another with for thousands of years.

Everyone's economy is dependent on the same continuing pattern of exponential growth.

And it's not just financial either. It's everywhere... cooked right into the premise of civilizations productivity.


This is why I believe it's useless to blame anyone for this situation. Usury was calculated into the equation centuries ago, or as long ago as our current functioning civilization has existed.

[Horn]

Great thread, guess I agree with ponce here.

Why not get it on now in the summer, than wait a month before Christmas when everyone is frozen?

Of course congress has no power over the MIC.

[EE_]

Does the passing of UI extensions have anything to do with the markets rallying?
Does putting people back on life support temporarily mitigate the damage to financial institutions regarding defaults and foreclosures?

[Book]

Does putting people back on life support temporarily mitigate the damage to financial institutions regarding defaults and foreclosures?



This latest extension expires right after the November elections. Kinda says it all.

[jetgraphics]

Though it is popular to bash capitalism, capitalism, as defined, has been absent since 1935, in America.
http://gold-silver.us/forum/constitution-and-law/people's-democratic-socialist-republic-of-america/

Capitalist Principles

CAPITALISM - An economic system in which the means of production, distribution and exchange are privately owned and operated for private profit.
- - - WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY

PRIVATE PROPERTY - "As protected from being taken for public uses, is such property as belongs absolutely to an individual, and of which he has the exclusive right of disposition. Property of a specific, fixed and tangible nature, capable of being in possession and transmitted to another, such as houses, lands, and chattels."
- - - Black's Law dictionary, sixth ed., p.1217

If you concatenate capitalism with private property, you can see the "inconvenient truth".

Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production, distribution and exchange are absolutely owned by individuals and operated for their individual profit.

Since corporations (artificial entities held with qualified ownership) and usurers are NOT capitalism, and actually engage in usury, an abomination, it's clear that blaming non-existent capitalism for the evils perpetrated by usurers is a win for the "Big Lie".

In American law, the remedy to socialist / usurer abuse is to withdraw consent, restore one's status as a sovereign American, free inhabitant, absolutely owning yourself, your labor and your property. Which is in harmony with the definition of capitalism.

[FreeEnergy]

jetgraphics...private property and absolute ownership...and right to inherit - this is where all these definitions come from. These are definitions for OLIGARCHY, whether monarchical, or feudalistic, or socialist, or whatever. The main reason is that you can grab stuff for yourself, declare it "yours" (especially land), and then pass as inheritance. And then whoever's better at grabbing floats to the top as oligarchs.

So you call that a "capitalist" system, or not? :)

IMHO means of production and exchange are ALWAYS (except for socialism) owned absolutely by individuals, in ANY OLIGARCHIAL SOCIETY. They may get mortgaged, they may be repossessed by brute force ...but isn't this always the case?

Corporations are pure capitalism. Usurers are pure capitalism, they own your property, why not?

But yes, you can split hairs here and say, "yay, capitalism is good, private property is good, but it is usurers who are bad." . Well then, in every society except socialist - and EVEN IN SOCIALISM (and I lived there a bit, so I know beyond mainstream media) - the property and means of production are owned OR OPERATED by individuals, for personal gain. The only difference is that in socialism means of production and property do not pass via inheritance, they get redistributed to the next "commissar" in charge.

..but maybe I misunderstood you and you are saying that pure capitalism doesn't exist?...

----

But let me go back to that Lokheed Martin example. VJ who sits in the computer room and who's in USA no H1-B visa, gets $25/hour paycheck and is extremely happy with it. You and I are paying Lokheed Martin $360/hour for that VJ guy to do his job. That VJ guy will be afraid to do anything to upset his masters, not unlike his american coworkers. So you - american coworkers demanding mo moneys - are laid off in favor of VJ (I am going back to this thread's title). That, my friends, has nothing to do with private property rights or usury. It is oligarchism at its best. In every other society, that oligarchial company would be investigated for defrauding the public, owners shot, hanged, and then shot again....oh wait, but aren't they owned by some oligarch like Rockfeller, and partially by Jp Morgan? Hmm..an unlikely scenario for Rock Fella to be investigated.

Usury is only part of the problem.

[Horn]

Does putting people back on life support temporarily mitigate the damage to financial institutions regarding defaults and foreclosures?



This latest extension expires right after the November elections. Kinda says it all.


Spreads out that foreclosure rate across the boards a little longer as well.

I do believe as Ponce does, the longer they can stretch things out the less chance the peoples voice will be heard, as it will be separated.

By the end of the line the U.S. landscape will resemble more the Peoples Republic of China's.

[Desolation LineTrimmer]

Our middle class has been exported to the third world by our Fascist business model whereby corporate America and government conspire to get rich off the back of slave labor at the expense of American jobs.



Is such really the "fascist business model"? I have my doubts. My understanding is that the fascist business model is a "third way" between capitalism and communism. I don't believe the workers were exploited in Italy under Mussolini, not like for instance coal miners under laissez faire capitalism in Great Britain during the 19th Century. I'm pretty sure the negatives of fascism are more associated with their heavy handed policing and censorship of political opposition, not exploitation of workers.

[Desolation LineTrimmer]

then you should be working somewhere for minimum wage instead of applying for a real job.



http://coto2.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/minimum_wage-increase.jpg

Minimum wage should be a living wage. Anything that cannot support basic food and housing isn't a living wage. The notion that Americans should accept something less than basic food and housing while BILLIONAIRES get tax cuts is right out of the Talmud.
:oo-->

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3107/2533279463_cd86d067f5.jpg


Not everyone needs or should have a householder income. Some kid falling out of high school into the entry level job market should not make enough money to support a family and a mortgage. If such was legislated from above the jobs for such kids would disappear in a heartbeat.

[Phoenix]

Our middle class has been exported to the third world by our Fascist business model whereby corporate America and government conspire to get rich off the back of slave labor at the expense of American jobs.



Is such really the "fascist business model"? I have my doubts. My understanding is that the fascist business model is a "third way" between capitalism and communism. I don't believe the workers were exploited in Italy under Mussolini, not like for instance coal miners under laissez faire capitalism in Great Britain during the 19th Century. I'm pretty sure the negatives of fascism are more associated with their heavy handed policing and censorship of political opposition, not exploitation of workers.


Most Italians were happy with Mussolini. He was a well-intentioned man, who made many errors. His model of fusing the State with the Corporations of the Nation worked marginally in his time and place, but now, the model has been mutated and is used around the world, most notably in America, to advance profit at the expense of anything and everything else.

[Phoenix]

Not everyone needs or should have a householder income. Some kid falling out of high school into the entry level job market should not make enough money to support a family and a mortgage. If such was legislated from above the jobs for such kids would disappear in a heartbeat.


Equal pay for equal work.

Young people have no jobs, right now, under Crapitalism, because Crapitalism purchased the government, and directed the government to undercut the cost of paying American young people a fair wage by importing millions of foreigners.

[Ash_Williams]

Minimum wage should be a living wage. Anything that cannot support basic food and housing isn't a living wage. The notion that Americans should accept something less than basic food and housing while BILLIONAIRES get tax cuts is right out of the Talmud.

The typical poor person in America lives in an air-conditioned home, owns a car, and has cable TV and a microwave.

Raising the minimum wage causes unemployment (among legal workers anyway).
It also removes the rights of some people to work. If someone isn't able to produce more than $9 an hour for an employer, they cannot be hired when the minimum wage is $9 an hour. They have no choice but to work under the table, or depend on the welfare system.

Minimum wage increases are passed onto consumers, there is no alternative, and people making minimum wage often work at the types of places that people making minimum wage shop at. There is a price increase across the board but those most hurt are those that it is supposed to help.

Finally it removes incentive to work harder. If the minimum wage goes for $7 to $10, all the people currently working much harder and making $10 don't get $13. The end result is that we're telling people "if you are a lazy ass you will make $10, and if you work significantly harder you will make $10."

Right now I personally have 0 employees because while I have things that I'd like to get done, I would have to pay them $10 an hour and for that price I'll just not have it done. If there was no minimum wage I could pay someone $6 an hour and they would have a job and make more than being on welfare.

[Phoenix]

Raising the minimum wage causes unemployment (among legal workers anyway).


This myth asserts the false presumption that employers employ people solely out of the "goodness of their hearts," and not because labor is necessary to complete their business mission.

Businesses employ someone because they must, and simply have to share the profits if they want to continue to operate in an effective and efficient manner.




If someone isn't able to produce more than $9 an hour for an employer, they cannot be hired when the minimum wage is $9 an hour.


Please explain what worker does not produce value of at least $9.00 per hour with their labor.




Minimum wage increases are passed onto consumers, there is no alternative


Another myth.

The alternative is that the business shares the profits with those who produce, i.e., the workers. Businesses are constrained in simply jacking up prices by the fact consumers will only pay so much. Anti-labor theories such as this present the false presumption that businesses operate with only a few cents of profit margin per dollar.




and people making minimum wage often work at the types of places that people making minimum wage shop at. There is a price increase across the board but those most hurt are those that it is supposed to help.


Without minimum wage, the prevailing wage would be $9.00...per day.

(we know that's what many want)




Finally it removes incentive to work harder. If the minimum wage goes for $7 to $10, all the people currently working much harder and making $10 don't get $13. The end result is that we're telling people "if you are a lazy ass you will make $10, and if you work significantly harder you will make $10."


That's what raises are for. And lazy asses get FIRED.




Right now I personally have 0 employees because while I have things that I'd like to get done, I would have to pay them $10 an hour and for that price I'll just not have it done. If there was no minimum wage I could pay someone $6 an hour and they would have a job and make more than being on welfare.


So, in order to keep more profit, you shortchange your customers by refusing to hire someone to do what should be done.

[Ash_Williams]

So, in order to keep more profit, you shortchange your customers by refusing to hire someone to do what should be done.

No, what I was saying is that I have a lot of work I could hire someone to do, and eventually be able to start a business. It's in my personal life, not where I work. However, at $10 an hour, it's not worth it to me, the risk is too great, so I just won't do it. At $6 an hour I probably would. That means someone could be working for $6 an hour, but they are not allowed to work for $6 an hour, so they sit at home. If they would rather work for $6, then what justification is there to tell them they cannot?



That's what raises are for. And lazy asses get FIRED.
A business can't just give all their $10 workers a raise because the minimum wage went up. You seem to have this idea that they are raking in massive profits. At the same time we are seeing business close at a record rate. Most small business operate at a loss for years before they ever turn a profit.

Firing people would work great if it were possible. Firing people is very difficult.


The alternative is that the business shares the profits with those who produce, i.e., the workers. Businesses are constrained in simply jacking up prices by the fact consumers will only pay so much. Anti-labor theories such as this present the false presumption that businesses operate with only a few cents of profit margin per dollar.

The large business may not, but there is another factor: Your local gas station may have a big name on the lighted sign, but the franchise its self is not seeing the billion dollar profits. They are simply selling gasoline with a very thin margin of a few cents per dollar. Paying the gas pumpers means a few more cents has to go on each gallon. The local station is a business on it's own. The guys at corporate office are already making much more than minimum wage, it has no effect up there. Same as most franchises - many of them operate on a very thin profit margin. If that goes away they close up and a corporate store replaces them. Any sort of regulation of wages, hiring practices, etc, always hurts the little business and opens up the market for the large corporations as they are the only ones that can survive the BS.


Please explain what worker does not produce value of at least $9.00 per hour with their labor.
Well, government workers. But other than that, the kind of things the mexicans get hired for at the uhaul. Maybe you are moving, you could pay someone $5 an hour to help you carry things. That may not be worth $9 an hour to you, you will just do it yourself for that price. Maybe if you can pay someone $5 an hour then you have them cut your lawn once a week, otherwise you just do it yourself once a month. A local grocery store used to have girls giving out free samples of things... that stopped one day, the manager said it was no longer worth it as there were new regulations that meant it cost more to have those people work, and the companies that provided the samples didn't pay enough to cover that. Jobs gone, just that easy.

However, lets say it only helps people... then why don't we set the minimum wage at $100 an hour?

[Desolation LineTrimmer]

Our middle class has been exported to the third world by our Fascist business model whereby corporate America and government conspire to get rich off the back of slave labor at the expense of American jobs.



Is such really the "fascist business model"? I have my doubts. My understanding is that the fascist business model is a "third way" between capitalism and communism. I don't believe the workers were exploited in Italy under Mussolini, not like for instance coal miners under laissez faire capitalism in Great Britain during the 19th Century. I'm pretty sure the negatives of fascism are more associated with their heavy handed policing and censorship of political opposition, not exploitation of workers.


Most Italians were happy with Mussolini. He was a well-intentioned man, who made many errors. His model of fusing the State with the Corporations of the Nation worked marginally in his time and place, but now, the model has been mutated and is used around the world, most notably in America, to advance profit at the expense of anything and everything else.


Corporatism of the 1930's doesn't have anything to do with big business corporations as the word is used today, but more along the lines of labor unions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism

[Phoenix]

So, in order to keep more profit, you shortchange your customers by refusing to hire someone to do what should be done.

No, what I was saying is that I have a lot of work I could hire someone to do, and eventually be able to start a business. It's in my personal life, not where I work.


OK, fair enough.



You seem to have this idea that they are raking in massive profits.


You seem to have this idea that the tens of trillions of dollars of wealth generated by labor isn't going to support lifestyles of the rich; lifestyles the kings of ancient times could not imagine.




At the same time we are seeing business close at a record rate.


The "big" guys, who screw labor, also screw the "little" guys who own businesses.




Firing people would work great if it were possible. Firing people is very difficult.


Oh, BS. Show reasonable grounds in documentation, and you can unload someone within a couple of weeks at the most.

My neighbor just got canned last week. No grounds. The "boss" knows he won't fight back.




Any sort of regulation of wages, hiring practices, etc, always hurts the little business and opens up the market for the large corporations as they are the only ones that can survive the BS.


The solution is not to eliminate laws and regulations, but to impose them uniformly, and harshly, on the corporatists, and relax them on the little business people.





Please explain what worker does not produce value of at least $9.00 per hour with their labor.

Well, government workers.


LOL, you got me! ;D




However, lets say it only helps people... then why don't we set the minimum wage at $100 an hour?


The corporatists and other wealthy SOBs have two primary aims towards the working class: 1) destroy any form of social safety net, by attacking "welfare" and "entitlements" as "unaffordable" (while they rake in trillions for their "defense" contracts), and 2) undercut labor by removing any rules that make them share the wealth that the labor has produced (while shipping the jobs to Red China though leaving prices on the now-inferior goods the same, banking the difference).

The common folk are under enormous pressure from above, and if there is nothing in the way to impede that pressure, it will grind the American working man and woman into the dirt. Idiot theories of "the free market will make it right" peddled by many is at best a pipe-dream, at worst a twisted fantasy of destruction.

A minimum wage of $100 is clearly not sustainable given current living costs. On average, a minimum wage of $9-$10/hour is bare minimum for the ordinary family to survive.

The funny thing, corporations like Wal-Mart that oppose unions or pro-labor rules, arguing in favor of "the free market," have no qualms whatsoever maneuvering their workers into going onto the dole for Food Stamps and Medicaid. This is the type of hypocrisy that makes so-called "free market arguments" fall on my deaf ears. The corporatists and other wealthy types don't want to even make a semblance of "playing fair." Hence, I endorse fighting back, in whatever way possible, even if that means turning my enemy (government) against another enemy (corporatists) [although the corporatists are continuing to purchase governmental assets, aiming for eventual complete union, i.e., Fascism].

[Ponce]

Let's face it guys, all that the government is doing is keeping all the sheep's passive till they get to the slaughter house...............and then.............like in death row where they give the condemn something to relax them before taking them to the chamber for the final injection.

[Book]

Minimum wage increases are passed onto consumers, there is no alternative, and people making minimum wage often work at the types of places that people making minimum wage shop at. There is a price increase across the board but those most hurt are those that it is supposed to help.



http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3107/2533279463_cd86d067f5.jpg

Yeah...the greedy worker demanding $7.00 minimum wage causes price inflation but Bill Gates skimming off his personal FIFTY BILLION DOLLARS is consumer friendly. Thanks for clearing that up Ash...lol.

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[Desolation LineTrimmer]

Minimum wage increases are passed onto consumers, there is no alternative, and people making minimum wage often work at the types of places that people making minimum wage shop at. There is a price increase across the board but those most hurt are those that it is supposed to help.



http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3107/2533279463_cd86d067f5.jpg

Yeah...the greedy worker demanding $7.00 minimum wage causes price inflation but Bill Gates skimming off his personal FIFTY BILLION DOLLARS is consumer friendly. Thanks for clearing that up Ash...lol.

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In your system everyone starts at $40,000 a year or what?

[Book]

In your system everyone starts at $40,000 a year or what?



http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3107/2533279463_cd86d067f5.jpg

In your system the CEO personally skims off FIFTY BILLION DOLLARS and you instead focus on the workers who are paid minimum wage. Minimum wage...lol.

:D

[Desolation LineTrimmer]

In your system everyone starts at $40,000 a year or what?



http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3107/2533279463_cd86d067f5.jpg

In your system the CEO personally skims off FIFTY BILLION DOLLARS and you instead focus on the workers who are paid minimum wage. Minimum wage...lol.

:D




I've been discussing "living wages" not Gates. I haven't mentioned Gates once. Back to my question, what do you think minimum wage should be?

[Book]

I've been discussing "living wages" not Gates. I haven't mentioned Gates once. Back to my question, what do you think minimum wage should be?



Um...ok...pause for a moment until you SEE the connection: When "capitalism" parasites like Gates personally skims off FIFTY BILLION DOLLARS for himself the workers, who actually produce the goods, are forced to live on less. This goes on all over our capitalist economy. There is NO rational relationship between production and earnings. Scroll up. Sad that you only point your finger at those on the bottom being paid minimum wage. You think Bill Gates worked a lot of overtime to honestly "earn" his billions? You think hedge fund managers on Wall Street gambling with other people's pension money "earn" millions by working hard? Our corrupt system is rigged.

http://www.cafrman.com/images/WealthDistribution.GIF

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[Ponce]

Mr Gates deserves everything that he has.........he didn't stick up a bank or went on stealing from the market.........some people got it and some people don't and usually those that don't complain about those who do..........so, stop biching about those who do and make your own.

[Horn]

Mr Gates deserves everything that he has.........he didn't stick up a bank or went on stealing from the market.........some people got it and some people don't and usually those that don't complain about those who do..........so, stop biching about those who do and make your own.


That depends what market your talking about.

In the beginning that's all Windows was, a thief program ;D

[Phoenix]

I've been discussing "living wages" not Gates. I haven't mentioned Gates once. Back to my question, what do you think minimum wage should be?


The American working man should be able to put in an honest day's work, 8 hours, 40 hours per week, and be able to provide a basic home, adequate food, clothing, utilities, and so on, for his family.

That's not possible because a small elite, the leisure class, "need" to have homes the size and cost of warehouses, "need" to vacation every other week, "need" $100 lunches...in order to provide this, "lifestyles" that cost thousands of times what an ordinary family needs, the ordinary families must fight for dimes and quarters.

Why do you like that system?

[Phoenix]

Mr Gates deserves everything that he has.........


Ponce just shredded every bit of credibility he had.

NO ONE "earns" a billion dollars. NO ONE.

[Desolation LineTrimmer]

I've been discussing "living wages" not Gates. I haven't mentioned Gates once. Back to my question, what do you think minimum wage should be?



Um...ok...pause for a moment until you SEE the connection: When "capitalism" parasites like Gates personally skims off FIFTY BILLION DOLLARS for himself the workers, who actually produce the goods, are forced to live on less. This goes on all over our capitalist economy. There is NO rational relationship between production and earnings. Scroll up. Sad that you only point your finger at those on the bottom being paid minimum wage. You think Bill Gates worked a lot of overtime to honestly "earn" his billions? You think hedge fund managers on Wall Street gambling with other people's pension money "earn" millions by working hard? Our corrupt system is rigged.

http://www.cafrman.com/images/WealthDistribution.GIF

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You are a dishonest debater. Over and over again you state what my beliefs are when I haven't even mentioned the red herrings you drag into the discussion. Recognizing that low paid workers may very likely be low producers is not the same as endorsing Wall Street stealing pension funds. You almost have to be a little whacked to make such leaps of association.

[Book]

Recognizing that low paid workers may very likely be low producers is not the same as endorsing Wall Street stealing pension funds.



http://www.heartlisten.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/queen-england-parasite.jpg

You tell 'em LineTrimmer! I had to work my fingers to the bone to become this successful and the little people are little because they are "low producers" as you say.

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[Ponce]

Phoenix? I think of you as a pasty fly that keeps bussing my head..........shooooooo go away.

[Book]

Mr Gates deserves everything that he has.........


Ponce just shredded every bit of credibility he had...



http://photos.upi.com/Audio/Year_in_Review/0677802b56ab3d9340dda04ff38e7230/FIDEL-CASTRO.jpg
"OK...I LOST THE COIN TOSS AND PONCE GOES WITH US"

[Dave Thomas]

If you can't find a fvcking job in 99+ weeks, you probably just suck. And you need to quit sucking the air of folks who can find jobs in 99+ weeks.

And Book, rich people get rich, because they don't spend 80+ hours a week on forums pulling their puds about jews.

[Book]

And Book, rich people get rich, because they don't spend 80+ hours a week on forums pulling their puds about jews.



Is that a Yiddish (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=525&q=jewish%20forums&gbv=2&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw) word Dave? Can you translate for us goyim?

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[JDRock]

Recognizing that low paid workers may very likely be low producers is not the same as endorsing Wall Street stealing pension funds.



http://www.heartlisten.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/queen-england-parasite.jpg

You tell 'em LineTrimmer! I had to work my fingers to the bone to become this successful and the little people are little because they are "low producers" as you say.

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...bwaahahaa ...wit and sarcasm become the deciding factor in this battle hahaaaa :ROFL:

[Ash_Williams]

In your system the CEO personally skims off FIFTY BILLION DOLLARS and you instead focus on the workers who are paid minimum wage. Minimum wage...lol.

Well, Gates had copyright law there to protect him. I don't blame him for taking advantage of it... these things should not exist to be taken advantage of.

As for the money, Microsoft is bringing in 60 billion dollars a year now. They've been around since 1975 and their revenue has gone up every year since then (except 2009). If you figure MS has brought in about a trillion dollars since day 1, then Gate's 58 billion is about 1/2 of 1%. And no one is forcing you to buy his products. With billions of licenses sold by Microsoft over the years, Gate's cut represents a few cents on a $150 piece of software has no significant impact on the final price.

On the other hand, consider a small gas station or local supermarket. Revenue in the thousands of dollars per day, with labor costs in the hundreds of dollars. The labor cost are totally significant and have a direct impact on the final price, and food and fuel are more important than computer software. We will see more and more of those self-checkouts appearing since the cost to run them is slightly below minimum wage and they are becoming a necessity to compete. Pay-at-the-pumps will become especially popular for gas stations. When the cost of labor gets too high, substitutes are found and the demand for labor falls.

[Ponce]

Book? you are closer to the truth than you know >:(

[Phoenix]

And Book, rich people get rich, because they don't spend 80+ hours a week on forums


I take it <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome">you're not rich</a>, eh?

[Horn]

Enough with the condemnation.

Why do you guys always resort to condemnation on such sensitive topics?

Ponce is free to express his royal & monopolistic tendencies, if felt.

It does nothing towards my "credibility" rating of him. ;D

[Horn]

And Book, rich people get rich, because they don't spend 80+ hours a week on forums pulling their puds about jews.


Gotta give Dave a point here though +1 for wit. :sun:

[dysgenic]

I've always felt that the right to limit one's liability via incorporation is just as oppresive as usary. Eliminate the incorporation abomination and you remove 95% of the weapons of obfuscation from the matrix. We used to call it 'piercing the corporate veil', but we didn't have it quite right. Better to eliminate entirely the invitation for good men (and the license for bad men) to corrupt themselves through convoluted accounting gimmicks, risktaking without risk, and legal and moral lack of accountability.

[Phoenix]

I've always felt that the right to limit one's liability via incorporation is just as oppresive as usary. Eliminate the incorporation abomination and you remove 95% of the weapons of obfuscation from the matrix. We used to call it 'piercing the corporate veil', but we didn't have it quite right. Better to eliminate entirely the invitation for good men (and the license for bad men) to corrupt themselves through convoluted accounting gimmicks, risktaking without risk, and legal and moral lack of accountability.


The ancient Kabbalistic tale of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem">Golem</a> was realized & perfected in the creation of "corporate personhood." Creation of an artificial "person" is sorcery, and just as deadly as any wicked spell of olden times.

[Ponce]

If you can't find a fvcking job in 99+ weeks, you probably just suck. And you need to quit sucking the air of folks who can find jobs in 99+ weeks.

And Book, rich people get rich, because they don't spend 80+ hours a week on forums pulling their puds about jews.




Dave? to start with some people know how much they need to be able to spend (80+ hours a week) in the forums, I don't know what you mean by (pulling their Puds) but if that means showing the "goys" what those people are I then would like to spend 100 hours a week in the internet.

By the way Dave........by what you wrote and the way that you wrote it I can only assume that you are either one of them or a sympathiser.

[Ash_Williams]

By the way Dave........by what you wrote and the way that you wrote it I can only assume that you are either one of them or a sympathiser.

A rich-person sympathizer or a jew sympathizer?

He has a point... blaming others for your lot in life (whether the blame is deserved or not) will do nothing to change your lot in life for the better. People that work to make their lives better generally succeed and find it's not all that difficult, although it is more difficult then placing blame and claiming that effort is futile. Much like those trying to quit smoking who would rather talk about how difficult it is, how many failed attempts they've made, rather than just doing it.

When you essentially give up and fight your battles with whining, you are only giving your enemies more power. Much like a workplace... people hate the guy that just got promoted... and yet they hold themselves back by bitching about it day after day instead of learning and taking risks or doing anything to help themselves.

There is no practicality in a lot of actions, constant bitching being one. Bitching is ok on occasion if it helps release stress so that you can better your odds of success, but day-after-day bitching puts you into a rut that you will spend your entire life in.

[Desolation LineTrimmer]

The fact that billionaires and royalty have too much money does not begin to prove that all workers deserve "living wages", it just highlights the fact that some people have too much money. It is not as if Gates is taking the money from low paid workers. Gates, and his ilk of computer geniuses, have created wealth for untold numbers of people. The notion that all employed people have a right to a wage that will support a family in their own home with their own car, etc, etc. is an unworkable idea so far as practical economics go. Those of you who argue pro "living wage" are arguing from a communist perspective. Some jobs are low paid because they have to be, and it is not the fault of Bill Gates. For the record, I don't like Gates in the least, but the truth is still the truth.