Jim Willie tidbit RE: $600 bullion sale 1099 rule

[mamboni]

I'm a paid subscriber to Jim Willie's outstanding Golden Jackass Newsletter. I hope he won't mind my posting this little excerpt from the July 2010 Gold & Energy Report fresh off the presses!

Jim Willie:

$$$ OBSTACLES TO GOLD COIN PURCHASES TO BE IMPOSED BY YEAR 2012. TARGETED ARE PURCHASES OF ANYTHING OVER $600 IN PRICE. THE LAW MIGHT BE WIDELY IGNORED. THEN AGAIN, IF EXTREME COIN SHORTAGES COME, THEN THE REGULATORY PAPERWORK WILL NOT MATTER. EXTREME COIN SHORTAGES ARE HERE IN THE MARKETPLACE, RIGHT NOW! $$$

The Numismatic News reports on a storm of paperwork soon to hit the coin collector world. The cartel, with USGovt tail wagging, wishes to obstruct the gold coin movement and its fast growing demand. Passage by Congress of the national Health Care Bill has had side effects. Coin buyers of all stripes (collectors, dealers, estate liquidators) will be required to complete new Internal Revenue Service 1099 forms for coins and other products, as of January 2012. The threshold for filing completed forms begins at $600 for coins or bullion, regardless of payment method, a very low level sure to produce a blizzard of paperwork. See the Numismaster article (CLICK HERE). A tax expert colleague pitched in. He said, "It is all nonsense, and unlikely to be widely followed. The sections of IRS code upon which this is all based, only applies to government workers and Federal contractors. Of course, most people (especially vendors) do not realize this, and the IRS is not exactly going to clarify. So neglect and disobedience are likely to be our saving grace." A wider perception and effect is in progress. The blizzard of forms, regulations, and programs is too much for most people and businesses to tolerate, which are struggling to survive. Most will ignore the USGovt with the view that it is long past out of control.

Andy Schectman is a widely known and respected gold bullion dealer from Miles Franklin, with focus on coins. He warns that the trend in coin purchase demand is powerful and exceedingly one-side, with paltry supply coming forward from sales. In fact, he warns that coins might not be available at all before long. He said, "In years past, we used to do a lot of business with people wanting to sell. Today, virtually no one is selling their coins back to us. In fact, for every 100 transactions we have, maybe one is a seller, the other 99 are buyers. Our largest supplier, who provides over 60% of all bullion to the US market, told me earlier this month they have days without one single buy back. And this is from the largest supplier in the United States."

[I am me, I am free]

The sections of IRS code upon which this is all based, only applies to government workers and Federal contractors.

I hope this 1099 requirement causes people to wake the f*ck up and see the non-relevance of the govt. in their lives.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/gold-coin-dealers-decry-tax-law/story?id=11211611&page=3

[Ponce]

Jesus H Ponce.........I am sure glad that I am situate from long ago.......if only Fed employees and contractor are the ones for that new rule then I am safe.........otherwise "Poor house Ponce".

First post of the day.........good morning to one and all.

[gunDriller]

anybody have an excerpt of the relevant sections from the actual Obama-care bill ?

it seems to early to breathe a sigh of relief.

[VX1]

Jesus H Ponce.........I am sure glad that I am situate from long ago.......if only Fed employees and contractor are the ones for that new rule then I am safe.........otherwise "Poor house Ponce".

First post of the day.........good morning to one and all.

Yeah, but didn't the 14th amendment make us all federal employees or something to that effect?

[Book]

1099

Form 1099 is a form promulgated by the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) and is used in the United States income tax system to prepare and file an information return to report various types of income other than wages, salaries, and tips (for which Social Security Administration Form W-2 is used instead). The term information return is used in contrast to the term tax return although the latter term is sometimes used colloquially to describe both kinds of returns.

Each payer must complete a 1099 for each covered transaction. Three copies are made: one for the payer, one for the payee, and one for the IRS.

* IRS instructions for form 1099, including a guide to what payments must be reported.

Examples of report amounts paid to independent contractors (in IRS terminology, such payments are nonemployee compensation). The ubiquity of the form has also led to use of the phrase "1099" to refer to contractors themselves. U.S. tax law requires businesses to submit a Form 1099 for every contractor paid at least $600 for services during a year. Although, this requirement usually does not apply to corporations receiving payments, amendments made by the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act would remove this exemption beginning in 2012.

Many businesses and organizations must file thousands of 1099s per year. Thus, payers who file 250 or more Form 1099 reports must file all of them electronically with the IRS.[4] The 250 or more requirement applies separately for each type of return and separately for each type of corrected return. Even though filers may submit 249 information returns on paper, the IRS encourages filers to transmit returns electronically. The complexity that arises in filing large volumes of information returns requires many filers to depend on third party information reporting software.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRS_tax_forms#1099_series

[7th trump]

Jesus H Ponce.........I am sure glad that I am situate from long ago.......if only Fed employees and contractor are the ones for that new rule then I am safe.........otherwise "Poor house Ponce".

First post of the day.........good morning to one and all.

Yeah, but didn't the 14th amendment make us all federal employees or something to that effect?

Not federal employee's. But.....

The 14th allowed for federal government to have its own citizenship with citizens since the union states wouldnt recognize the free (only from enforced enslavement) negroe. Doesnt mean we are all federal US citizens until you sign up for federal benefits such as Social Security. See 5USC 552a (13)

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/5/usc_sec_05_00000552---a000-.html



(13) the term “Federal personnel” means officers and employees of the Government of the United States, members of the uniformed services (including members of the Reserve Components), individuals entitled to receive immediate or deferred retirement benefits under any retirement program of the Government of the United States (including survivor benefits).

To see what an "individual" is ....see (2) of this same section.



(2) the term “individual” means a citizen of the United States or an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence;

And where might "survivors benefits" be found?
Well looky there even has it in Title 26 under the social security "employment" section!
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode26/usc_sec_26_00003101----000-.html


TITLE 26 > Subtitle C > CHAPTER 21 > Subchapter A > § 3101
3101. Rate of tax
(a) Old-age, survivors, and disability insurance
In addition to other taxes, there is hereby imposed on the income of every individual a tax equal to the following percentages of the wages (as defined in section 3121 (a)) received by him with respect to employment (as defined in section 3121 (b))—

Doesnt really matter if it says "survivors" anyway because the social security is and was formed under the government of the United States. It was not state formed but federal.

[Saul Mine]

The blizzard of forms, regulations, and programs is too much for most people and businesses to tolerate, which are struggling to survive.

An example of "void for vagueness", another underused legal option. The law must be written so that a person of average ability can read it, understand it, and comply with it. When the laws are incoherent, or contradictory, or so voluminous that it's not possible to read them all, or for any reason impossible to comply, then the law is "void for vagueness".

[7th trump]

The blizzard of forms, regulations, and programs is too much for most people and businesses to tolerate, which are struggling to survive.

An example of "void for vagueness", another underused legal option. The law must be written so that a person of average ability can read it, understand it, and comply with it. When the laws are incoherent, or contradictory, or so voluminous that it's not possible to read them all, or for any reason impossible to comply, then the law is "void for vagueness".

Is that your definition of "void for vagueness" because I can understand it?

[gunDriller]

so, is what Jim Willie says about the 1099 rule only applying to people who do work for the government - is that true ?

i could of sworn in all the articles i've seen before, about the Obamacare $600 law, it said it applies to all commercial transactions.

i understand a lot of Republicans are trying to overturn it. that will definitely make them the good guys.

it tells us a lot about our elected reps that they can pony up $Trillions to bail out hyper wealthy investors - and criminals - and their credit derivatives, yet think taking $17 Billion from a few million small business people and private individuals via this $600 law is acceptable behavior.

and we pay the salaries of these elected reps, e.g. Pelosi ?

think again, PALS, my personal savings will not be used to finance your salary, or any of your benefits.

[mightymanx]

If you had bought some numismatic coins From Gold Line like Glenn Beck said you would not be in this problem. ;)

[Phoenix]

Good luck going into a coin shop, or logging onto APMEX.com, and avoiding receiving a 1099-K, if you sell more than $600 in coins. "I'm not a Federal employee or contractor, so please don't give me one." They should stop laughing after a couple of minutes.

If you want to avoid being 1099'd, find a buyer that operates "off the books." In most cases, they won't have a business license or a public shop.

[Phoenix]

anybody have an excerpt of the relevant sections from the actual Obama-care bill ?

it seems to early to breathe a sigh of relief.


Jim Willie would have you believe he is not only a gold guru, but a seer, and only his special powers could detect this peculiarity, whereas the coin industry has missed it. ::)

[Phoenix]

Jim Willie is COMPLETELY full of sh*t:


The totality of Section 9006 of the Obamacare (the ‘‘Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act’’) bill...


SEC. 9006. EXPANSION OF INFORMATION REPORTING REQUIREMENTS.

(a) IN GENERAL.—Section 6041 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 is amended by adding at the end the following new subsections:

‘‘(h) APPLICATION TO CORPORATIONS.—Notwithstanding any regulation prescribed by the Secretary before the date of the enactment of this subsection, for purposes of this section the term ‘person’ includes any corporation that is not an organization exempt from tax under section 501(a).

‘‘(i) REGULATIONS.—The Secretary may prescribe such regulations and other guidance as may be appropriate or necessary to carry out the purposes of this section, including rules to prevent duplicative reporting of transactions.’’.

(b) PAYMENTS FOR PROPERTY AND OTHER GROSS PROCEEDS.—Subsection (a) of section 6041 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 is amended—

(1) by inserting ‘‘amounts in consideration for property,’’ after ‘‘wages,’’,

(2) by inserting ‘‘gross proceeds,’’ after ‘‘emoluments, or other’’, and

(3) by inserting ‘‘gross proceeds,’’ after ‘‘setting 20 forth the amount of such’’.

(c) EFFECTIVE DATE.—The amendments made by this section shall apply to payments made after December 31, 2011.

[Phoenix]

The totality of 26 USC 6041...

6041. Information at source

(a) Payments of $600 or more

All persons engaged in a trade or business and making payment in the course of such trade or business to another person, of rent, salaries, wages, premiums, annuities, compensations, remunerations, emoluments, or other fixed or determinable gains, profits, and income (other than payments to which section 6042 (a)(1), 6044 (a)(1), 6047 (e), 6049 (a), or 6050N (a) applies, and other than payments with respect to which a statement is required under the authority of section 6042 (a)(2), 6044 (a)(2), or 6045), of $600 or more in any taxable year, or, in the case of such payments made by the United States, the officers or employees of the United States having information as to such payments and required to make returns in regard thereto by the regulations hereinafter provided for, shall render a true and accurate return to the Secretary, under such regulations and in such form and manner and to such extent as may be prescribed by the Secretary, setting forth the amount of such gains, profits, and income, and the name and address of the recipient of such payment.

(b) Collection of foreign items

In the case of collections of items (not payable in the United States) of interest upon the bonds of foreign countries and interest upon the bonds of and dividends from foreign corporations by any person undertaking as a matter of business or for profit the collection of foreign payments of such interest or dividends by means of coupons, checks, or bills of exchange, such person shall make a return according to the forms or regulations prescribed by the Secretary, setting forth the amount paid and the name and address of the recipient of each such payment.

(c) Recipient to furnish name and address

When necessary to make effective the provisions of this section, the name and address of the recipient of income shall be furnished upon demand of the person paying the income.

(d) Statements to be furnished to persons with respect to whom information is required

Every person required to make a return under subsection (a) shall furnish to each person with respect to whom such a return is required a written statement showing—

(1) the name, address, and phone number of the information contact of the person required to make such return, and

(2) the aggregate amount of payments to the person required to be shown on the return.

The written statement required under the preceding sentence shall be furnished to the person on or before January 31 of the year following the calendar year for which the return under subsection (a) was required to be made. To the extent provided in regulations prescribed by the Secretary, this subsection shall also apply to persons required to make returns under subsection (b).

(e) Section does not apply to certain tips

This section shall not apply to tips with respect to which section 6053 (a) (relating to reporting of tips) applies.

(f) Section does not apply to certain health arrangements

This section shall not apply to any payment for medical care (as defined in section 213 (d)) made under—

(1) a flexible spending arrangement (as defined in section 106 (c)(2)), or

(2) a health reimbursement arrangement which is treated as employer-provided coverage under an accident or health plan for purposes of section 106.

(g) Nonqualified deferred compensation

Subsection (a) shall apply to—

(1) any deferrals for the year under a nonqualified deferred compensation plan (within the meaning of section 409A (d)), whether or not paid, except that this paragraph shall not apply to deferrals which are required to be reported under section 6051 (a)(13) (without regard to any de minimis exception), and

(2) any amount includible under section 409A and which is not treated as wages under section 3401 (a).

[cedarchopper]

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/gold-coin-dealers-decry-tax-law/story?id=11211611&page=1


Gold Coin Sellers Angered by New Tax Law
Amendment Slipped Into Health Care Legislation Would Track, Tax Coin and Bullion Transactions

By RICH BLAKE
July 21, 2010

Those already outraged by the president's health care legislation now have a new bone of contention -- a scarcely noticed tack-on provision to the law that puts gold coin buyers and sellers under closer government scrutiny.

Section 9006 of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will amend the Internal Revenue Code to expand the scope of Form 1099. Currently, 1099 forms are used to track and report the miscellaneous income associated with services rendered by independent contractors or self-employed individuals

Starting Jan. 1, 2012, Form 1099s will become a means of reporting to the Internal Revenue Service the purchases of all goods and services by small businesses and self-employed people that exceed $600 during a calendar year. Precious metals such as coins and bullion fall into this category and coin dealers have been among those most rankled by the change.

This provision, intended to mine what the IRS deems a vast reservoir of uncollected income tax, was included in the health care legislation ostensibly as a way to pay for it. The tax code tweak is expected to raise $17 billion over the next 10 years, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation.

Taking an early and vociferous role in opposing the measure is the precious metal and coin industry, according to Diane Piret, industry affairs director for the Industry Council for Tangible Assets. The ICTA, based in Severna Park, Md., is a trade association representing an estimated 5,000 coin and bullion dealers in the United States.

"Coin dealers not only buy for their inventory from other dealers, but also with great frequency from the public," Piret said. "Most other types of businesses will have a limited number of suppliers from which they buy their goods and products for resale."

More at link

[gunDriller]

Jim Willie is COMPLETELY full of sh*t:


so in other words, the government's attempt to pick our pockets remains in force.

that is such a small-business-killing law.


I marvel at the insanity of our pseudo-elected representatives. fake public servants who don't serve the public deserve the Gallows. in the old days, people knew this.

[Phoenix]

so in other words, the government's attempt to pick our pockets remains in force.


Starting January 1, 2012, that is correct.

[gunDriller]

so in other words, the government's attempt to pick our pockets remains in force.


Starting January 1, 2012, that is correct.


well, hey, if i'm gonna worry, i want to worry accurately.

[Plastic]

I wonder just how many businesses will suddenly become cash only. ;D

[gunDriller]

I wonder just how many businesses will suddenly become cash only. ;D


the penalties for non-compliance and evasion are being cranked up. e.g. $500K for not reporting something, even if you paid taxes.

how about ;D ... sneaking into the parking lot of the Federal building at night, and putting GPS transponders on all the IRS cars ?

then when they go to do their dastardly deeds, they show up like cockroaches on the Garmin road-map, if you got one of those electronic Garmin things.

[cedarchopper]

This law is the start date of the totalitarian crackdown...complete scrutiny of everybody's activities. This is E. German style totalitarianism. The flip side will be an informant system just as comprehensive. This won't be a little game of hide and seek or just pay cash and go on with normal activities. The is a fundamental change of the relationship of the government to the people. This will be hardball with extreme consequences.

You will not be able to go to Sam's or Costco and buy supplies to do a little side catering business, or anything. This it! (sounds like Jim Sinclair:]

[Phoenix]

This law is the start date of the totalitarian crackdown...complete scrutiny of everybody's activities. This is E. German style totalitarianism. The flip side will be an informant system just as comprehensive. This won't be a little game of hide and seek or just pay cash and go on with normal activities. The is a fundamental change of the relationship of the government to the people. This will be hardball with extreme consequences.

You will not be able to go to Sam's or Costco and buy supplies to do a little side catering business, or anything. This it! (sounds like Jim Sinclair:]




"And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

[1970 silver art]

This 1099 rule to me just means that buying and selling $600 or more worth of PM's locally from a local dealer after Jan. 1, 2012 will no longer become a private transaction between you and the local dealer since a 1099 will generate a paper trail for the gov't to track your PM buying and selling activity. This part of the health care reform bill strips away the privacy of buying (and selling) PM's locally from a local coin dealer.

If I am wrong on anything that I said in the above paragraph, then please feel free to correct me on this.

[cedarchopper]

This 1099 rule to me just means that buying and selling $600 or more worth of PM's locally from a local dealer after Jan. 1, 2012 will no longer become a private transaction between you and the local dealer since a 1099 will generate a paper trail for the gov't to track your PM buying and selling activity. This part of the health care reform bill strips away the privacy of buying (and selling) PM's locally from a local coin dealer.

If I am wrong on anything that I said in the above paragraph, then please feel free to correct me on this.





This law is $600 of anything in the calendar year...PM's are just what we are primarily talking about on this website. But if you think about it, if you do some carpentry work or build things to sell, when you buy wood, tools, sandpaper, saw blades, etc worth $600 in the year...it all has to be reported. If you buy flour at Costco to bake bread to sell at the farmer's market, it will be reported when you hit $600., which would be no time at all for someone trying to make some money to survive.

This is a crackdown on the productive activities people utilize to survive in this country...nothing less. You cannot pay 15.3 % self employment tax plus sales tax and compete with unlimited slave labor imports...this the death knell for freedom (you will be hunted for not cooperating and starve if you cooperate). Nothing less.

[mamboni]

At this rate, we'll be reduced to using Jenkem to get high: bummer!

[7th trump]

This law is the start date of the totalitarian crackdown...complete scrutiny of everybody's activities. This is E. German style totalitarianism. The flip side will be an informant system just as comprehensive. This won't be a little game of hide and seek or just pay cash and go on with normal activities. The is a fundamental change of the relationship of the government to the people. This will be hardball with extreme consequences.

You will not be able to go to Sam's or Costco and buy supplies to do a little side catering business, or anything. This it! (sounds like Jim Sinclair:]




"And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."



This is not the number of the beast Phoenix.
The verse reads those who "receive" the number. Its not forced on anybody. Its not any legislative bill nor any legislative law. Its a person. A fallen angel turned wicked!

The number 666 is representitive to the 6th seal, the 6th vail, and the 6th trumpet.
Read all three and see who appears and what happens at all three verses. A fake christ appears.
The real Christ appears at the last trumpet or 7th trump. Theres only 7 trumpet blasts.
You wont read of Jesus coming at the 7th trumpet verse, you have to read I beleive Daniel to find out that Christ says He comes at the last trumpet. In fact the real Christ appearing is the 7th trumpet. The 6th trumpet is the appearence of the fake christ or satan.
Its written that he will cause many to receive the number, but its not forced to be given a number. How do you cause anyone to take anything that would stop you from buying and selling if you dont? Who in their right mind would be a part of such evilness? Nobody thats who....
satan is setting up shop here on earth to have a church revival like none other because those who take the number take for worshipping satan.
Worshipping satan is beleiving he is the real christ when in fact he not.
If you think satan is the real deal is taking the number "in" your forehead...................you beleive its Jesus.

[learn2swim]

What ever happened to the Jim Willie Comex assassins? ::)

[chad]

it's my contention that this law is designed to get rid of cash, not raise tax money.

everyone will be encouraged/forced to use debit cards, costco cards, the super saver grocery card, something electronic so that the businesses "can get the 1099s done in a timely manner."

if they accept cash, they're going to have to do them all by hand. far easier to make you use some form of a card and electronically run them at the end of the year.

[mamboni]

it's my contention that this law is designed to get rid of cash, not raise tax money.

everyone will be encouraged/forced to use debit cards, costco cards, the super saver grocery card, something electronic so that the businesses "can get the 1099s done in a timely manner."

if they accept cash, they're going to have to do them all by hand. far easier to make you use some form of a card and electronically run them at the end of the year.


Well, you make a good point. I'll put a different slant on it: this new $600 reporting requirement will drive cash out of 'reportable' transactions. Those who can will move more of their 'business' into cash transactions that are unreported. The biggest concern they will have is to show enough 'reportable' income to pay their 'reportable' expenses (i.e. taxes, rent, insurances) and not arouse suspicion from the tax man. Many small businesses today survive only because they can hide some income as cash. This tendency will be increased by this law. I predict that state and federal tax reciepts in 2011 will deteriorate even further than they have in 2010. We'll be slipsliding backwards down the Laffer curve towards infinite taxation/zero revenues.

[Plastic]

I still have a little hope and faith that society will reject a cashless system, even churchianity peeps are watching out for this.

[chad]

it's mostly cashless now. we're an anomaly because we're soon to be "weird terrorists who cash to hide out evil doings."

hotel, airline ticket, rental car, all cashless. you can't buy drinks on a plane anymore without a card.

welfare benefits, etc. all cashless and on cards now.

virtually every store on the planet takes debit cards now, even mcdonalds and subway type places.

you can pay almost all of your bills online or automatic debit. banks don't even do coupon books anymore.

i think we like to think everyone is running around under the radar like us, but i'd contend that it's probably close to 75% cashless already.

[Half Sense]

Well, you make a good point. I'll put a different slant on it: this new $600 reporting requirement will drive cash out of 'reportable' transactions. Those who can will move more of their 'business' into cash transactions that are unreported. The biggest concern they will have is to show enough 'reportable' income to pay their 'reportable' expenses (i.e. taxes, rent, insurances) and not arouse suspicion from the tax man. Many small businesses today survive only because they can hide some income as cash. This tendency will be increased by this law. I predict that state and federal tax reciepts in 2011 will deteriorate even further than they have in 2010. We'll be slipsliding backwards down the Laffer curve towards infinite taxation/zero revenues.


Seems like it would be easy for the IRS to entrap these cash businesses, then shut them down. Maybe a Stasi-like rewards system for cash customers who fink to the IRS if they don't get a 1099 with their transaction. Within a year no small business will risk trying to cover up cash sales.

[mamboni]

Well, you make a good point. I'll put a different slant on it: this new $600 reporting requirement will drive cash out of 'reportable' transactions. Those who can will move more of their 'business' into cash transactions that are unreported. The biggest concern they will have is to show enough 'reportable' income to pay their 'reportable' expenses (i.e. taxes, rent, insurances) and not arouse suspicion from the tax man. Many small businesses today survive only because they can hide some income as cash. This tendency will be increased by this law. I predict that state and federal tax reciepts in 2011 will deteriorate even further than they have in 2010. We'll be slipsliding backwards down the Laffer curve towards infinite taxation/zero revenues.


Seems like it would be easy for the IRS to entrap these cash businesses, then shut them down. Maybe a Stasi-like rewards system for cash customers who fink to the IRS if they don't get a 1099 with their transaction. Within a year no small business will risk trying to cover up cash sales.

Perhaps, and this would only force closure of more businesses, destroying jobs, suppressing commerce and worsening the general economy and tax collections longterm. Sometimes it seems like government, especially at the federal level, is hellbent on destroying the US economy. Then again, I'm probably just paranoid. :oo-->

[cedarchopper]

Well, you make a good point. I'll put a different slant on it: this new $600 reporting requirement will drive cash out of 'reportable' transactions. Those who can will move more of their 'business' into cash transactions that are unreported. The biggest concern they will have is to show enough 'reportable' income to pay their 'reportable' expenses (i.e. taxes, rent, insurances) and not arouse suspicion from the tax man. Many small businesses today survive only because they can hide some income as cash. This tendency will be increased by this law. I predict that state and federal tax reciepts in 2011 will deteriorate even further than they have in 2010. We'll be slipsliding backwards down the Laffer curve towards infinite taxation/zero revenues.


Seems like it would be easy for the IRS to entrap these cash businesses, then shut them down. Maybe a Stasi-like rewards system for cash customers who fink to the IRS if they don't get a 1099 with their transaction. Within a year no small business will risk trying to cover up cash sales.

Perhaps, and this would only force closure of more businesses, destroying jobs, suppressing commerce and worsening the general economy and tax collections longterm. Sometimes it seems like government, especially at the federal level, is hellbent on destroying the US economy. Then again, I'm probably just paranoid. :oo-->


It is not paranoia when they really are out to get you.

"It’s time to stop mincing words. Obama is not a fool. He is not incompetent. He is not a madman. He knows exactly what he’s doing. He is purposely overwhelming the U.S. economy to create systemic failure, economic crisis, and social chaos- thereby destroying capitalism and our country from within. But the bonus is brilliant…as he destroys and taxes to death business owners, he also cripples his political opposition.
Rahm Emanuel cynically said, “You never want a crisis to go to waste.” It is now becoming clear that the crisis he was referring to is Obama’s Presidency. As Glenn Beck correctly predicted from day one, Obama is following the plan of Cloward & Piven, two professors at Obama’s Columbia University. In 1966, they outlined a plan to socialize America by OVERWHELMING the system with government spending and entitlement demands. Add up the clues below. Taken individually they’re alarming. Taken as a whole, it is a brilliant, Machiavellian game plan to overwhelm the system, wreck the U.S. economy, damage or destroy the free market, in order to turn the U.S. into a socialist/Marxist state with a permanent majority that desperately needs government for survival."

[philo beddoe]

Well, you make a good point. I'll put a different slant on it: this new $600 reporting requirement will drive cash out of 'reportable' transactions. Those who can will move more of their 'business' into cash transactions that are unreported. The biggest concern they will have is to show enough 'reportable' income to pay their 'reportable' expenses (i.e. taxes, rent, insurances) and not arouse suspicion from the tax man. Many small businesses today survive only because they can hide some income as cash. This tendency will be increased by this law. I predict that state and federal tax reciepts in 2011 will deteriorate even further than they have in 2010. We'll be slipsliding backwards down the Laffer curve towards infinite taxation/zero revenues.


Seems like it would be easy for the IRS to entrap these cash businesses, then shut them down. Maybe a Stasi-like rewards system for cash customers who fink to the IRS if they don't get a 1099 with their transaction. Within a year no small business will risk trying to cover up cash sales.

Perhaps, and this would only force closure of more businesses, destroying jobs, suppressing commerce and worsening the general economy and tax collections longterm. Sometimes it seems like government, especially at the federal level, is hellbent on destroying the US economy. Then again, I'm probably just paranoid. :oo-->


It is not paranoia when they really are out to get you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlA3Fa5bgig

[Half Sense]

There's one thing I think we're all missing in this new rule. How will a business know when you have spent $600 with them in a calendar year? Won't Starbucks have to get your SS# and personal information the FIRST TIME you buy a $4 coffee from them - and every time after? So that they know, say, on May 12th, that you went over the $600/year limit?

Seems to me, this rule means that EVERY transaction will be tracked, no matter how small.

[cedarchopper]

There's one thing I think we're all missing in this new rule. How will a business know when you have spent $600 with them in a calendar year? Won't Starbucks have to get your SS# and personal information the FIRST TIME you buy a $4 coffee from them - and every time after? So that they know, say, on May 12th, that you went over the $600/year limit?

Seems to me, this rule means that EVERY transaction will be tracked, no matter how small.


That is exactly what will have to happen in order to know when the $600 reporting requirement is reached in the calendar year...how else?

[gunDriller]

There's one thing I think we're all missing in this new rule. How will a business know when you have spent $600 with them in a calendar year? Won't Starbucks have to get your SS# and personal information the FIRST TIME you buy a $4 coffee from them - and every time after? So that they know, say, on May 12th, that you went over the $600/year limit?

Seems to me, this rule means that EVERY transaction will be tracked, no matter how small.


That is exactly what will have to happen in order to know when the $600 reporting requirement is reached in the calendar year...how else?


i don't think it's looking for the cumulative 150 $4 transactions.

that would be a whole nother level of paper work insanity.

i think the bill means that any and all commercial transactions of $600 or more will require a 1099 filing, starting Jan. 1, 2012 ... Obama can eat my garbage.

and if Obama does eat my garbage, i will let it sit outside with big flies buzzing around so he gets some nice fat maggots. to make sure he gets enough protein, you know.

aren't there any lawyers among us to read the few pages of the bill that cover this ?

shit, i will be so greatful to Dan Lungren if his "anti" bill passes.

this bill has me thinking more about expat'ing. it is a business killer, and the net revenues from the bill are about $18 Billion.

after having let the banksters off the hook for cumulative criminal fraud that cost the US people $Trillions, the US gov. is squeezing small business people for $18 Billion.

so we know who the US gov. works for. maybe from that point of view the Obamacare tax law is a gift - it shows the "true nature" of the US gov.


another example of that would be the "Food Safety" act which totally clamps down on small farmers & roadside food stands, imposing the same paperwork requirements as large agribiz, with huge $1 Million penalties for non-compliance.

sending SWAT teams in to seize small farms because they refuse to go along with the new paperwork. yeah, that will improve the country. :sarc:

[Phoenix]

I still have a little hope and faith that society will reject a cashless system, even churchianity peeps are watching out for this.


We may never have a "cashless" society, but we will have an all-transactions-tracked society.

The state-sponsored "churches" will be in front pushing it: "Romans 13! Romans 13! Obey the government, for 'god' has appointed it!"

[Phoenix]

Sometimes it seems like government, especially at the federal level, is hellbent on destroying the US economy. Then again, I'm probably just paranoid. :oo-->


The current purpose of the United States Government is to DESTROY what remains of America.

[Phoenix]

i don't think it's looking for the cumulative 150 $4 transactions.

that would be a whole nother level of paper work insanity.


Uh...uh...uh...you're not ascribing SANITY to the US Government, are you? ???

[Sparky]

I think Mamboni's original post still says a lot. In particular, here's the dose of reality, regardless of what's on paper:

"...So neglect and disobedience are likely to be our saving grace." A wider perception and effect is in progress. The blizzard of forms, regulations, and programs is too much for most people and businesses to tolerate, which are struggling to survive. Most will ignore the USGovt with the view that it is long past out of control.

Our discussion is on coins, but this applies to all goods and services exceeding $600 in a year. Just think of the scope of that. Is there really going to be a 1099 generated for every single $600+ appliance sold in the United States? Every refrigerator, every television set, every washing machine? Every high-end lawnmower and bicycle and air conditioner? Every sofa and dining room table? Every living room carpet and kitchen floor? Every computer? Plus every $600 service? Every tree removal, every paint job? Are you kidding me?!?

[Phoenix]

I think Mamboni's original post still says a lot. In particular, here's the dose of reality, regardless of what's on paper:

"...So neglect and disobedience are likely to be our saving grace." A wider perception and effect is in progress. The blizzard of forms, regulations, and programs is too much for most people and businesses to tolerate, which are struggling to survive. Most will ignore the USGovt with the view that it is long past out of control.

Our discussion is on coins, but this applies to all goods and services exceeding $600 in a year. Just think of the scope of that. Is there really going to be a 1099 generated for every single $600+ appliance sold in the United States? Every refrigerator, every television set, every washing machine? Every high-end lawnmower and bicycle and air conditioner? Every sofa and dining room table? Every living room carpet and kitchen floor? Every computer? Plus every $600 service? Every tree removal, every paint job? Are you kidding me?!?


In the year 2000, that's the response of the average American if you had told them a mullatto, foreign-born, first-term Senator who defeated Hillary Clinton would be president in 2010.

We have a regime that is aiming for total government. The sheer magnitude of the "requirement" means that if there's any chance of it being implemented, nearly all transactions will have to be electronic. Giving credence to the theory presented earlier in this thread.

[platinumdude]

Email your congress person to support the bill to overturn it.

You can use this site, or at least grab off the text for it and email your congress person.

http://capwiz.com/ppa/issues/alert/?alertid=15015636

[gunDriller]

> Is there really going to be a 1099 generated for every single $600+ appliance sold in the
> United States? Every refrigerator, every television set, every washing machine? Every
> high-end lawnmower and bicycle and air conditioner? Every sofa and dining room table?
> Every living room carpet and kitchen floor? Every computer?

i don't know. something like that. e.g. a computer sold for $600 on Craigslist - well, they're owned by eBay.

> Plus every $600 service? Every tree removal, every paint job?

Yes. that is one of the purposes of the bill - to suck some blood from individual contractors who often work in cash.

and to suck some more blood from people who might have been smart enough to buy an ounce of gold and choose to sell it in a non-cash transaction.

the IRS will have some trouble taxing private party transactions, e.g. if someone sold that one ounce gold coin to their brother.


> Are you kidding me?!?

i wish i was kidding. i would deserve a perma-ban for kidding about something like this.

[Uncle Salty]

What ever happened to the Jim Willie Comex assassins? ::)


I think they got high on Jenkem and lost their way.