The purposes of the "sovereign citizen" movement

[Phoenix]

You've heard them tell you that you can refuse to pay taxes without consequences - or perhaps "exempt" yourself from taxes all your family, friends, and neighbors must pay.

You've heard them tell you that you can drive without a driver's license or license plates, without consequences.

You may have even heard them tell you that you can "exempt" yourself from every statutory law on the books, by merely filing a "legal document" or recanting magic words to a government agent or law enforcement officer.


Often, you'll find them on forums, just like this one, posting often, about how you can do all this seemingly fantastic stuff. You'll be referred to books, tapes/CDs, or videos "you can purchase," or, visit a seminar by a "renowned legal scholar" - renowned only within the "sovereign citizen" movement itself. Of course, this seminar, "teaching you information you can learn nowhere else," costs only three or four figures of your hard-earned money.

Skeptical, you ask for more information - you dare ask for it for no cost - and you will initially be ignored. You ask who has been successful in using these "techniques." You may be told that "a man I know how been using these techniques for years, with complete success." Of course, this sounds too good to be true. You persist in asking for more information. You will be told to obtain a variety of books or other media, "to study 'the law," and of course, these media are not available anywhere for no cost, only from the "sources" that peddle them for profit.

If you are really a savvy person, you may even - gasp! - inquire about court cases and actual, real-live names of people for whom these "techniques" work. At this point, the "sovereign citizen" adherent will identify you as a "problem customer," and begin questioning your motives, your intelligence, or make some other ad hominem attack on you, with tactics of personal destruction. If you go away, as expected, the mission is a success, and the rest of the marks can continue to be mesmerized with the fantastic claims. If not, you'll find, in cult-like fashion, the "sovereign citizen" adherents will swarm over you, attempting to overwhelm and bully you into retreat.

The two purposes of the "sovereign citizen" movement are thus:

1) as a means to acquire wealth - your wealth - through sales of seminars and media.

2) to flush out persons who have become fed up with out-of-control government.

The first objective, far most common, is an update of the classic scam. Today's snake-oil is bizarre and ineffective "legal information" for which no evidence of utility or success can be provided. These "patriots"-for-profit will not tell you that the only effective way of avoiding taxes is to live a "cash only" or barter-for-barter life, where transactions are not traced. Offering such "free" advice is not going to result in you forking over hundreds or thousands of dollars, not to the government, but to the self-appointed, self-"accredited" "legal scholar."

The second objective, piggy-backed upon the first type, is in the realm of the agent provocateur and covert agent. The government knows there are many of you out there who, justly, would like to be relieved of the great and extensive burdens government places upon you for malum prohibitum "crimes" and countless varieties of tribute they call "taxes." The government knows the more of you there are, the greater the danger you present, for if you are able to organize, eventually a group may arise which is strong enough to successfully "take on" at least one component of the government. Hence, they want names, and all details about you. You naively enter the "sovereign citizen" movement, fall victim to the sucker-bait of the confidence men who peddle their mythology, and the government goon gets your personal information. A great symbiotic relationship for the con-men and the G-men, and a very unfortunate future for you.

Don't fall for their lies and honey-traps.

[palani]

oxymoron
1657, from Gk. oxymoron, noun use of neut. of oxymoros (adj.) "pointedly foolish," from oxys "sharp" (see acrid) + moros "stupid." Rhetorical figure by which contradictory terms are conjoined so as to give point to the statement or expression; the word itself is an illustration of the thing. Now often used loosely to mean "contradiction in terms."

No matter how many prefixes are added to moron the result is just another variation of 'stupid'.

[Phoenix]

No matter how many prefixes are added to moron the result is just another variation of 'stupid'.


As someone who is part of purpose #1 as described in the first post of this thread, I am certain you are a world-class expert on the synonyms of what you think of your "customers."

[palani]

As someone who is part of purpose #1 as described in the first post of this thread, I am certain you are a world-class expert on the synonyms of what you think of your "customers."
Ignorance, or want of skill, is considered a negligence, for which one who professes skill is responsible. Lest I be considered negligent I will point out that a "sovereign citizen" (aka a sovereign subject) possesses the same attributes as a "free slave" or a "single husband" or a "virtuous hooker".

[Phoenix]

Ignorance, or want of skill, is considered a negligence, for which one who professes skill is responsible. Lest I be considered negligent I will point out that a "sovereign citizen" (aka a sovereign subject) possesses the same attributes as a "free slave" or a "single husband" or a "virtuous hooker".


So, you're admitting the very name the <a href="http://www.civil-liberties.com/pages/art1.html">"sovereign citizen"</a> <a href="http://www.sovereign-citizenship.net/home.html">movement</a> uses is a fraud?

[palani]

So, you're admitting the very name the <a href="http://www.civil-liberties.com/pages/art1.html">"sovereign citizen"</a> <a href="http://www.sovereign-citizenship.net/home.html">movement</a> uses is a fraud?

I am aware of no body politic that describes itself as "sovereign citizens" or any variation. To be sovereign is to go ballistic when you don't get your way (seems somewhat childish) and a citizen is nothing but a poor slob who agrees (has contracted) to be regulated in everything he says or does.

[Phoenix]

So, you're admitting the very name the <a href="http://www.civil-liberties.com/pages/art1.html">"sovereign citizen"</a> <a href="http://www.sovereign-citizenship.net/home.html">movement</a> uses is a fraud?

I am aware of no body politic that describes itself as "sovereign citizens" or any variation.


If you would learn what a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperlink">hyperlink</a> is, you would be aware.

I knew you'd try to pull this line, which is why I embedded TWO that use the term "sovereign citizen."

[dysgenic]

The following are excerpts from the book The Protocols of Zion, author unknown:

"In the third rank we shall set up our own, to all appearance, opposition, which, in at least one of its organs will present what looks like the very antipodes to us. Our real opponents at heart will accept this simulated opposition as their own and will show us their cards."

"... and by merely twisting them (laws-sic) into contradictions of interpretations, we have erected something grandiose in the way of results."

dys

[palani]

If you would learn what a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperlink">hyperlink</a> is, you would be aware.

I knew you'd try to pull this line, which is why I embedded TWO that use the term "sovereign citizen."


Are you implying that a web presence is equivalent to a body politic? If this is the case then were there no body politics existing prior to Al Gore inventing the internet? What did the founding fathers do with no web presence? Surely they wouldn't revert to anything as primitive as writing on hemp paper?

[Phoenix]

What did the founding fathers do with no web presence?


"What is Sovereign Citizenship? Sovereign Citizenship is the status held by our forefathers. George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, and everyone else who won their freedom from the British Empire had this status. It was the birthright of all Americans, and we were generous in extending this most important right to foreign-born persons through the naturalization laws. With this status, our unalienable rights of life, liberty, and property couldn't be infringed. During the Civil War a method was discovered by the leading attorneys, financiers, and politicians of the day to deprive us of this status. Fortunately, we can get it back."

http://www.civil-liberties.com/pages/art1.html

[palani]

What did the founding fathers do with no web presence?


"What is Sovereign Citizenship? Sovereign Citizenship is the status held by our forefathers. George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, and everyone else who won their freedom from the British Empire had this status. It was the birthright of all Americans, and we were generous in extending this most important right to foreign-born persons through the naturalization laws. With this status, our unalienable rights of life, liberty, and property couldn't be infringed. During the Civil War a method was discovered by the leading attorneys, financiers, and politicians of the day to deprive us of this status. Fortunately, we can get it back."

http://www.civil-liberties.com/pages/art1.html


If you say so; however I have no knowledge or experience with that, being a mere youngster.

[Phoenix]

If you say so; however I have no knowledge or experience with that, being a mere youngster.


"When caught, feign ignorance."

[palani]

If you say so; however I have no knowledge or experience with that, being a mere youngster.


"When caught, feign ignorance."


So how much did you get taken for at these "sovereign citizen" seminars you attended? Were they entirely valueless or did you learn anything at all?

[Book]

Were they entirely valueless or did you learn anything at all?



:oo-->






Palani: herein you have not make an iota of sense, are not worth my time, and have yet to even counter-argue my second argument. Additionally, stop with the capital letters already, it is puerile; note the proper use of capital letters in my posts.In a world of the blind a one eyed man might be KING.


Additionally, might I inquire if you are a lawyer?

No, you may not inquire. You are entitled to no due process because you have received no NOTICE. Your right to inquire is derived from NOTICE and you have received none (from me). Should you have received NOTICE from others then by all means pursue your inquiry from THEM.

[palani]

Were they entirely valueless or did you learn anything at all?



:oo-->






Palani: herein you have not make an iota of sense, are not worth my time, and have yet to even counter-argue my second argument. Additionally, stop with the capital letters already, it is puerile; note the proper use of capital letters in my posts.In a world of the blind a one eyed man might be KING.


Additionally, might I inquire if you are a lawyer?

No, you may not inquire. You are entitled to no due process because you have received no NOTICE. Your right to inquire is derived from NOTICE and you have received none (from me). Should you have received NOTICE from others then by all means pursue your inquiry from THEM.



Was there a question here, Demosthenes? Or is the role of being a paid government snitch unbalancing your judgment?

[Saul Mine]

oxymoron - too stupid to breathe

BTW, why do your posts always contradict your sig?

[Skirnir]

Here I am, in the 35th day of my captivity. I never thought this could

happen in America. I believed that the government obeyed the law.

Apparently, I'm wrong.


Even Jeff concedes this sovereign citizen stuff is nonsense.

http://www.constitution.org/piml/96061102.txt

[Phoenix]

Here I am, in the 35th day of my captivity. I never thought this could

happen in America. I believed that the government obeyed the law.

Apparently, I'm wrong.


Even Jeff concedes this sovereign citizen stuff is nonsense.

http://www.constitution.org/piml/96061102.txt


Wow, Skirnir wins the Post of the Day award!

Excellent find!

[Joe King]

What did the founding fathers do with no web presence?


"What is Sovereign Citizenship? Sovereign Citizenship is the status held by our forefathers. George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, and everyone else who won their freedom from the British Empire had this status. It was the birthright of all Americans, and we were generous in extending this most important right to foreign-born persons through the naturalization laws. With this status, our unalienable rights of life, liberty, and property couldn't be infringed. During the Civil War a method was discovered by the leading attorneys, financiers, and politicians of the day to deprive us of this status. Fortunately, we can get it back."

http://www.civil-liberties.com/pages/art1.html
Excuse me Phoenix, but what is it that you're implying here with the highlighted reference? ????
That our Nations Forefathers didn't have those kind of Rights?
Or that only they had them and we the people alive today, don't?

If you were implying something altogether different, could you be so kind as to clarify? Thanks!

[palani]

If you say so; however I have no knowledge or experience with that, being a mere youngster.


"When caught, feign ignorance."


So how much did you get taken for at these "sovereign citizen" seminars you attended? Were they entirely valueless or did you learn anything at all?

Evidently these questions are too sensitive to be discussed on this forum. Why are you DEMANDING responses to your posts when you don't respond to others?

[Book]

Here I am, in the 35th day of my captivity. I never thought this could

happen in America. I believed that the government obeyed the law.

Apparently, I'm wrong.


Even Jeff concedes this sovereign citizen stuff is nonsense.

http://www.constitution.org/piml/96061102.txt


Wow, Skirnir wins the Post of the Day award!

Excellent find!



Letter from Jeff Ganaposki

Federal Prisoner

May 29, 1996

"I keep hoping I'll wake up and fink that it was only a nightmare, but

after 5 weeks in jail I'm not optimistic. What is most disturbing is the

blatant disregard for the Constitution that I have observed by judges,

officers, and agents of the U.S. Government. I'm not illiterate so when

I read that: "No Warrant shall issue, but upon Probable Cause, supported

by oath or affirmation." I expect that those who have sworn oaths to the

U.S. Constitution would not dare issue unconstitutional warrants,

without sworn oath or affirmation.

::)

[Phoenix]

Evidently these questions are too sensitive to be discussed on this forum. Why are you DEMANDING responses to your posts when you don't respond to others?


I'm not the one putting forth LIES as fact.

When you post even one (verifiable, of course) court case that proves your assertions, I'll be happy to address what you ask.

[palani]

Even Jeff concedes this sovereign citizen stuff is nonsense.

http://www.constitution.org/piml/96061102.txt


Sovereignty is mentioned twice and citizen is mentioned zero times in your cite. Nonsense is not mentioned at all. Could it be that you are having hallucinations?

Here is the sovereignty section


I told my audience

that the Supreme Court affirmed that Americans are blessed with the

birthright of Sovereignty, but that Americans surrendered their

sovereignty when they applied for a number in the Social Security

system.

[Skirnir]

...

Grasping at straws, aren't we? This sovereign citizen crap presupposes that the country is governed by rule of law. You asserted the opposite, therefore the crap is nonsense at best, delusional at worst, and either way not worth my time.

By the way, nice neckbeard. I saw your facebook photo. ;D

[palani]

Evidently these questions are too sensitive to be discussed on this forum. Why are you DEMANDING responses to your posts when you don't respond to others?


I'm not the one putting forth LIES as fact.

When you post even one (verifiable, of course) court case that proves your assertions, I'll be happy to address what you ask.


What have I asserted?

Do you NEED a court to determine anything? Courts, judges, attorneys, bailiffs, clerks of court ... they all LIE. If you only believe in them then you need a SHRINK!!!!!

NOW ANSWER MY QUESTIONS LOSER. I AM TIRED OF YOU ACCUSING ME OF LYING AND PANDERING FOR MONEY. I THINK YOU ARE A TROLL AND A SHILL.

[I am me, I am free]

If you say so; however I have no knowledge or experience with that, being a mere youngster.


"When caught, feign ignorance."


So how much did you get taken for at these "sovereign citizen" seminars you attended? Were they entirely valueless or did you learn anything at all?

Evidently these questions are too sensitive to be discussed on this forum. Why are you DEMANDING responses to your posts when you don't respond to others?


'Cause he's without honor. Duh.

[Skirnir]

Evidently these questions are too sensitive to be discussed on this forum. Why are you DEMANDING responses to your posts when you don't respond to others?


I'm not the one putting forth LIES as fact.

When you post even one (verifiable, of course) court case that proves your assertions, I'll be happy to address what you ask.


What have I asserted?

Do you NEED a court to determine anything? Courts, judges, attorneys, bailiffs, clerks of court ... they all LIE. If you only believe in them then you need a SHRINK!!!!!

NOW ANSWER MY QUESTIONS LOSER. I AM TIRED OF YOU ACCUSING ME OF LYING AND PANDERING FOR MONEY. I THINK YOU ARE A TROLL AND A SHILL.


Again with the debate tactic. I will not bother re-iterating my earlier post, so I will quote it:



This debate tactic Palani is trying to pull is tempting the opponent to reiterate his claims and using any factual or invented inaccuracies therein to discredit said opponent.

Nice try

[palani]

Grasping at straws, aren't we? YOU stated "Even Jeff concedes this sovereign citizen stuff is nonsense." THAT STATEMENT IS A LIE.


This sovereign citizen crap presupposes that the country is governed by rule of law. Provide a cite of this please or is this something you just pulled out of youR windward passage?



You asserted the opposite, therefore the crap is nonsense at best, delusional at worst, and either way not worth my time. I asserted nothing about the rule of law or how the country is governed or even what the country is. MORE LYING.


By the way, nice neckbeard. I saw your facebook photo. THAT WOULD BE A TRICK AS THERE IS NO FACEBOOK ACCOUNT. ANOTHER LIE.

Zero for three buddy. YOU JUST STRUCK OUT!!!

[Book]

Here is the sovereignty section



http://cache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/recess_03_18/r32_18254339.jpg

Is it near a food bank?

:oo-->

[palani]

Here is the sovereignty section



http://cache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/recess_03_18/r32_18254339.jpg

Is it near a food bank?

:oo-->


Meanwhile the government informers get to pay their mortgages. Why are you so concerned about the misfortunes of other people? Feeling a little superior are we?

[I am me, I am free]

I posted this query earlier, and still no answer: What is it that motivates some to dog/haze other (complete strangers) into unquestioning compliance to the dictates of the corporate state when the manner in which others conduct their OWN affairs is really none of their business.

The only thing I can conclude is that the proponents of absolute subservience to the corporate state is because they are collectivists and statists. No matter how much they protest these labels, the facts are self-evident - they spend an inordinate amount of their time and effort making sure others submit and comply.

Still the question remains in my mind: how do they benefit from this expense of time and effort sheepherding others? I have to allow for the possibility that perhaps I will never comprehend that.

[Skirnir]

Grasping at straws, aren't we? YOU stated "Even Jeff concedes this sovereign citizen stuff is nonsense." THAT STATEMENT IS A LIE.


This sovereign citizen crap presupposes that the country is governed by rule of law. Provide a cite of this please or is this something you just pulled out of youR windward passage?



You asserted the opposite, therefore the crap is nonsense at best, delusional at worst, and either way not worth my time. I asserted nothing about the rule of law or how the country is governed or even what the country is. MORE LYING.


By the way, nice neckbeard. I saw your facebook photo. THAT WOULD BE A TRICK AS THERE IS NO FACEBOOK ACCOUNT. ANOTHER LIE.

Zero for three buddy. YOU JUST STRUCK OUT!!!


1. Given that the perception of the law is the basis of the sovereign citizen crap, it presupposes rule of law which you conceded was not present; see 3.
2. See 1
3. You stated "I believed that the government obeyed the law. Apparently, I'm wrong." According to most definitions, this precludes the presence of the rule of law, which precludes the arguments about the sovereign citizen crap.
4. I know you probably forgot to learn how to shave in prison, but at least use an electric razor.

[Skirnir]

I posted this query earlier, and still no answer: What is it that motivates some to dog/haze other (complete strangers) into unquestioning compliance to the dictates of the corporate state when the manner in which others conduct their OWN affairs is really none of their business.

The only thing I can conclude is that the proponents of absolute subservience to the corporate state is because they are collectivists and statists. No matter how much they protest these labels, the facts are self-evident - they spend an inordinate amount of their time and effort making sure others submit and comply.

Still the question remains in my mind: how do they benefit from this expense of time and effort sheepherding others. I have to allow for the possibility that perhaps I will never comprehend that.


The argument is that there are violent and drastic consequences to not paying the necessary protection monies. If you want the Feds to make your life a living hell, I am not stopping you.

[Book]

No matter how much they protest these labels, the facts are self-evident - they spend an inordinate amount of their time and effort making sure others submit and comply.



Um...did you post being a police officer in another thread?

:oo-->

[palani]

Still the question remains in my mind: how do they benefit from this expense of time and effort sheepherding others. I have to allow for the possibility that perhaps I will never comprehend that.

Communists share the shortage. The concept of reaping surplus is like water to a man on the dessert. They keep looking over the fence at the other side hoping they could find the courage to stand on their own but of course they were bred for different purposes.

[I am me, I am free]

I posted this query earlier, and still no answer: What is it that motivates some to dog/haze other (complete strangers) into unquestioning compliance to the dictates of the corporate state when the manner in which others conduct their OWN affairs is really none of their business.

The only thing I can conclude is that the proponents of absolute subservience to the corporate state is because they are collectivists and statists. No matter how much they protest these labels, the facts are self-evident - they spend an inordinate amount of their time and effort making sure others submit and comply.

Still the question remains in my mind: how do they benefit from this expense of time and effort sheepherding others. I have to allow for the possibility that perhaps I will never comprehend that.


The argument is that there are violent and drastic consequences to not paying the necessary protection monies. If you want the Feds to make your life a living hell, I am not stopping you.


You know, Book, Quantum/Phoenix, and you are all doing the same exact thing: telling others that if they don't buy into YOUR version of reality that they are going straight to Hell, and ultimately the three of you are all in favor of the state representing you and acting as the Mob. YOU are the Mob! IOW, tyrants of the worst possible kind.

Anytime someone else can tell you what to do and when to do it, then you're institutionalized - a condition it appears the three of you prefer.

[Fortyone]

This whole "sovereign citizen" movement is a farce IMO. An entire section of the US was laid waste last time people tried to be"sovereign"!
Pick your battles wisely folks, I dont care which way anyone goes ,Its really not my affair, but be prepared for the Hammer.

[I am me, I am free]

This whole "sovereign citizen" movement is a farce IMO. An entire section of the US was laid waste last time people tried to be"sovereign"!
Pick your battles wisely folks, I dont care which way anyone goes ,Its really not my affair, but be prepared for the Hammer.


I'm much more concerned about the Stark Fist of Removal than any 'hammer' the corporate state may weld. The state's actions are very temporary, while the Stark Fist is eternal.

[palani]

1. Given that the perception of the law is the basis of the sovereign citizen crap, it presupposes rule of law which you conceded was not present; see 3.
2. See 1
3. You stated "I believed that the government obeyed the law. Apparently, I'm wrong." According to most definitions, this precludes the presence of the rule of law, which precludes the arguments about the sovereign citizen crap.
4. I know you probably forgot to learn how to shave in prison, but at least use an electric razor.



1. Gibberish
2. Gibberish
3. That was from your own cite presumably from a user named jetgraphics. Try to pay attention.
4. Do you find you wear out the knees in your trousers when you work under the table while learning Chinese?

[Fortyone]

This whole "sovereign citizen" movement is a farce IMO. An entire section of the US was laid waste last time people tried to be"sovereign"!
Pick your battles wisely folks, I dont care which way anyone goes ,Its really not my affair, but be prepared for the Hammer.


I'm much more concerned about the Stark Fist of Removal than any 'hammer' the corporate state may weld. The state's actions are very temporary, while the Stark Fist is eternal.


Just saying you can do as you wish, not my affair, but I will discourage anyone to possibly lose their life savings and family over such grasping for freedom.Myself, Ill wait for the endgame.

[Skirnir]

I posted this query earlier, and still no answer: What is it that motivates some to dog/haze other (complete strangers) into unquestioning compliance to the dictates of the corporate state when the manner in which others conduct their OWN affairs is really none of their business.

The only thing I can conclude is that the proponents of absolute subservience to the corporate state is because they are collectivists and statists. No matter how much they protest these labels, the facts are self-evident - they spend an inordinate amount of their time and effort making sure others submit and comply.

Still the question remains in my mind: how do they benefit from this expense of time and effort sheepherding others. I have to allow for the possibility that perhaps I will never comprehend that.


The argument is that there are violent and drastic consequences to not paying the necessary protection monies. If you want the Feds to make your life a living hell, I am not stopping you.


You know, Book, Quantum/Phoenix, and you are all doing the same exact thing: telling others that if they don't buy into YOUR version of reality that they are going straight to Hell, and ultimately the three of you are all in favor of the state representing you and acting as the Mob. YOU are the Mob! IOW, tyrants of the worst possible kind.

Anytime someone else can tell you what to do and when to do it, then you're institutionalized - a condition it appears the three of you prefer.


Ask anyone who has ever dealt with the IRS aka Cousin Vinnie how pleasant that was. That said, I invite you to pull this sovereign citizen crap on the Feds.

By the way, nice hyperbole, you have a real flair for preaching the hellfire business. I am stating a matter of causality; if X then Y. If one skips taxes, the Feds will cause trouble. I do not like it either, but it is how it is until I get the hell out of this crappy country.

[Skirnir]

1. Given that the perception of the law is the basis of the sovereign citizen crap, it presupposes rule of law which you conceded was not present; see 3.
2. See 1
3. You stated "I believed that the government obeyed the law. Apparently, I'm wrong." According to most definitions, this precludes the presence of the rule of law, which precludes the arguments about the sovereign citizen crap.
4. I know you probably forgot to learn how to shave in prison, but at least use an electric razor.



1. Gibberish
2. Gibberish
3. That was from your own cite presumably from a user named jetgraphics. Try to pay attention.
4. Do you find you wear out the knees in your trousers when you work under the table while learning Chinese?


Ah, pardon me, I got the two of you morons mixed up. Please disregard my comments directed at you in this thread thus far.

That said, I burned my hand on the wok once, but nothing knee-related.

[Fudup]

You guys crack me up. ;D :D

[palani]

By the way, nice hyperbole, you have a real flair for preaching the hellfire business. I am stating a matter of causality; if X then Y. If one skips taxes, the Feds will cause trouble. I do not like it either, but it is how it is until I get the hell out of this crappy country.

What country are you located in?

[Fortyone]

By the way, nice hyperbole, you have a real flair for preaching the hellfire business. I am stating a matter of causality; if X then Y. If one skips taxes, the Feds will cause trouble. I do not like it either, but it is how it is until I get the hell out of this crappy country.

What country are you located in?


Well being he used the word "Feds" Im going to go out on a limb and say USA? :'(

[palani]

By the way, nice hyperbole, you have a real flair for preaching the hellfire business. I am stating a matter of causality; if X then Y. If one skips taxes, the Feds will cause trouble. I do not like it either, but it is how it is until I get the hell out of this crappy country.

What country are you located in?


Well being he used the word "Feds" Im going to go out on a limb and say USA? :'(

That is not a country. That is a federation of independent nation-states.

[Skirnir]

By the way, nice hyperbole, you have a real flair for preaching the hellfire business. I am stating a matter of causality; if X then Y. If one skips taxes, the Feds will cause trouble. I do not like it either, but it is how it is until I get the hell out of this crappy country.

What country are you located in?


I come from the land of the ice and snow, from the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.

[I am me, I am free]

I posted this query earlier, and still no answer: What is it that motivates some to dog/haze other (complete strangers) into unquestioning compliance to the dictates of the corporate state when the manner in which others conduct their OWN affairs is really none of their business.

The only thing I can conclude is that the proponents of absolute subservience to the corporate state is because they are collectivists and statists. No matter how much they protest these labels, the facts are self-evident - they spend an inordinate amount of their time and effort making sure others submit and comply.

Still the question remains in my mind: how do they benefit from this expense of time and effort sheepherding others. I have to allow for the possibility that perhaps I will never comprehend that.


The argument is that there are violent and drastic consequences to not paying the necessary protection monies. If you want the Feds to make your life a living hell, I am not stopping you.


You know, Book, Quantum/Phoenix, and you are all doing the same exact thing: telling others that if they don't buy into YOUR version of reality that they are going straight to Hell, and ultimately the three of you are all in favor of the state representing you and acting as the Mob. YOU are the Mob! IOW, tyrants of the worst possible kind.

Anytime someone else can tell you what to do and when to do it, then you're institutionalized - a condition it appears the three of you prefer.


Ask anyone who has ever dealt with the IRS aka Cousin Vinnie how pleasant that was. That said, I invite you to pull this sovereign citizen crap on the Feds.

By the way, nice hyperbole, you have a real flair for preaching the hellfire business. I am stating a matter of causality; if X then Y. If one skips taxes, the Feds will cause trouble. I do not like it either, but it is how it is until I get the hell out of this crappy country.


TRANSLATION: you lack the courage to stand; doesn't matter WHERE you go, you're not going to escape the ultimate Satanic beast system.

[I am me, I am free]

By the way, nice hyperbole, you have a real flair for preaching the hellfire business. I am stating a matter of causality; if X then Y. If one skips taxes, the Feds will cause trouble. I do not like it either, but it is how it is until I get the hell out of this crappy country.

What country are you located in?


I come from the land of the ice and snow, from the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.


I see you're a big fan of a very well known unabashed band of Satan-worshippers.

[palani]

I come from the land of the ice and snow, from the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.

Eskimo then.

[Fortyone]

By the way, nice hyperbole, you have a real flair for preaching the hellfire business. I am stating a matter of causality; if X then Y. If one skips taxes, the Feds will cause trouble. I do not like it either, but it is how it is until I get the hell out of this crappy country.

What country are you located in?


Well being he used the word "Feds" Im going to go out on a limb and say USA? :'(

That is not a country. That is a federation of independent nation-states.


In what world? you been freeze dried or doing hard time? The US states have had very little independent authority in over a century. States today are merely Governmental units for DC to rule.

[I am me, I am free]

That said, I burned my hand on the wok once, but nothing knee-related.


Is your foot fully healed* after taking that AK round at pointblank range?

All I can say is, man, that must really, really hurt.

*if a foot hit by an AK round can ever 'fully' heal.

[palani]

In what world? you been freeze dried or doing hard time? The US states have had very little independent authority in over a century. States today are merely Governmental units for DC to rule.

I have been asleep for a while. Are these stones still in place around the district?

http://dcist.com/attachments/Ben%20Schuman%20Stoler/2007_1031_BoundaryStones.jpg

[Skirnir]

In response to certain posts:

What is with this mark-of-the-beast crap I am seeing all over the place? Revelations is nothing more than John of Patmos getting stoned and writing down gibberish, I want to know what he was on so I can enjoy it next time I go to a concert.

As for Zeppelin, that is one of my favourite songs. My ancestors are Lithuanian; not quite known for hot springs but there are a few. That said, it has enough ice and snow for most tastes.

As for the issue of courage, I'm pragmatic; I just so happened to pop out in this giant clusterfuck of a country, no reason to stick around while things get nasty.

IAMIAF - post some proof or hold your tongue. You remind me of Wolf Blitzer always bringing up David Duke's KKK involvement; yours is a very kosher tactic.

[7th trump]

By the way, nice hyperbole, you have a real flair for preaching the hellfire business. I am stating a matter of causality; if X then Y. If one skips taxes, the Feds will cause trouble. I do not like it either, but it is how it is until I get the hell out of this crappy country.

What country are you located in?


Well being he used the word "Feds" Im going to go out on a limb and say USA? :'(

That is not a country. That is a federation of independent nation-states.


In what world? you been freeze dried or doing hard time? The US states have had very little independent authority in over a century. States today are merely Governmental units for DC to rule.

hey 41,
If you read the Buck Act it will explain you that the "The State of Iowa" is different than the union state Iowa.
The feds had to pass the Buck Act so they could reach in and control their subjects that otherwise the Constitution forbid it except authorized by the Constitution such as millitary dock yards and millitary posts within a state.
Contrary to phoenix's tripe the federal government does obey the Constitution.
The State of Iowa is the federal state that may think is a union state which it is not. Different jurisdictions and matter between the both.


There has been created a fictional Federal "State within a state". See Howard v. Sinking Fund of Louisville, 344 U.S. 624, 73 S.Ct. 465, 476, 97 L.Ed. 617 (1953); Schwartz v. O'Hara TP. School Dist., 100 A. 2d. 621, 625, 375 Pa. 440. (Compare also 31 C.F.R. Parts 51.2 and 52.2, which also identify a fictional State within a state.) This fictional "State" is identified by the use of two-letter abbreviations like "CA", "AZ" and "TX", as distinguished from the authorized abbreviations like "Calif.", "Ariz." and "Tex.", etc. This fictional State also uses ZIP codes which are within the municipal, exclusive legislative jurisdiction of Congress.

This entire scheme was accomplished by passage of the "Buck Act", 4 U.S.C.S. Secs. 105-113, to implement the application of the "Public Salary Tax Act of 1939" to workers within the private sector. This subjects all private sector workers who have a Social Security number to all state and federal laws "within this State", a "fictional Federal area" overlaying the land in California and in all other states in the Union. In California, this is established by California Form 590, Revenue and Taxation. All you have to do is to state that you live in California. This establishes that you do not live in a "Federal area" and that you are exempt from the Public Salary Tax Act of 1939 and also from the California Income Tax for residents who live "in this State".

The following definition is used throughout the several states in the application of their municipal laws which require some sort of contract for proper application. This definition is also included in all the codes of California, Nevada, Arizona, Utah and New York:

"In this State" or "in the State" means within the exterior
limits of the State ... and includes all territories within
such limits owned or ceded to the United States of America.

This definition concurs with the "Buck Act" supra which states:

110(d) The term "State" includes any Territory or possession
of the United States.

110(e) The term "Federal area" means any lands or premises
held or acquired by or for the use of the United States or
any department, establishment, or agency of the United
States; and any Federal area, or any part thereof, which is
located within the exterior boundaries of any State, shall
be deemed to be a Federal area located within such State.


Congressman Ed Bryant Says. . . TENNESSEANS OUGHT TO BE TAXED FAIRLY

APRIL 18, 1997

The old saying that the process of taxation is akin to the plucking of a goose -- trying to get away with as many feathers with the smallest amount of hissing -- could not be more applicable than to the Commonwealth of Kentucky's ongoing practice of levying its state income tax upon hundreds and hundreds of Tennesseans who happen to work on the Kentucky portion of Fort Campbell.

I think this tax policy on the part of Kentucky is inherently unfair. That's why I have introduced legislation to correct this highly unique situation. Its aim, should it become law, is simple: Kentucky should not be permitted to impose its income tax upon Tennesseans who happen to be employed on its portion of Fort Campbell.

The House Judiciary Committee's Subcommittee on Commercial and Administrative Law on which I sit held a hearing this past week to examine this aspect of Kentucky's tax policy. Joining me in the hearing were Senator Fred Thompson and two Clarksvillians, Worth Lovett and Ed Wilson. Each of us testified about the unfairness of this economic inequity which has burdened too many Tennesseans for too long. For years, Kentucky has been taking advantage of this multi-million dollar windfall, thanks to a World War II-era piece of legislation known as The Buck Act. When The Buck Act became law in the early 1940's, it provided states the authority to levy their income tax upon federal officers and employees who were residing in federal areas and benefitting from being exempt from a given state's income tax.

[I am me, I am free]

In response to certain posts:

What is with this mark-of-the-beast crap I am seeing all over the place? Revelations is nothing more than John of Patmos getting stoned and writing down gibberish, I want to know what he was on so I can enjoy it next time I go to a concert.

As for Zeppelin, that is one of my favourite songs. My ancestors are Lithuanian; not quite known for hot springs but there are a few. That said, it has enough ice and snow for most tastes.

As for the issue of courage, I'm pragmatic; I just so happened to pop out in this giant clusterf*ck of a country, no reason to stick around while things get nasty.

IAMIAF - post some proof or hold your tongue. You remind me of Wolf Blitzer always bringing up David Duke's KKK involvement; yours is a very kosher tactic.


Book, Quantum/Phoenix, and you are the primary peddlers of the 'buy into our version of reality OR YOU'RE GONG TO HELL' meme - as in BIG TIME supporters of the death cult/beast system (you all ARE acting as advocates of being the obedient subjects of your betters). OTOH I'm more into the "Love first, then do what you will" (so long as you don't infringe upon the rights, liberties or property of others) camp.

God knows how I love irony. lol

[7th trump]

In response to certain posts:

What is with this mark-of-the-beast crap I am seeing all over the place? Revelations is nothing more than John of Patmos getting stoned and writing down gibberish, I want to know what he was on so I can enjoy it next time I go to a concert.

As for Zeppelin, that is one of my favourite songs. My ancestors are Lithuanian; not quite known for hot springs but there are a few. That said, it has enough ice and snow for most tastes.

As for the issue of courage, I'm pragmatic; I just so happened to pop out in this giant clusterf*ck of a country, no reason to stick around while things get nasty.

IAMIAF - post some proof or hold your tongue. You remind me of Wolf Blitzer always bringing up David Duke's KKK involvement; yours is a very kosher tactic.


Book, Quantum/Phoenix, and you are the primary peddlers of the 'buy into our version of reality OR YOU'RE GONG TO HELL' meme - as in BIG TIME supporters of the death cult/beast system (you all ARE acting as advocates of being the obedient subjects of your betters). OTOH I'm more into the "Love first, then do what you will" (so long as you don't infringe upon the rights, liberties or property of others) camp.

God knows how I love irony. lol

And phoenix calls himself a christian?
I'll be there to condem you phoenix for fear mongering. Its a christians duty to pluck the bad eye out. And well your the bad eye.

[Skirnir]

In response to certain posts:

What is with this mark-of-the-beast crap I am seeing all over the place? Revelations is nothing more than John of Patmos getting stoned and writing down gibberish, I want to know what he was on so I can enjoy it next time I go to a concert.

As for Zeppelin, that is one of my favourite songs. My ancestors are Lithuanian; not quite known for hot springs but there are a few. That said, it has enough ice and snow for most tastes.

As for the issue of courage, I'm pragmatic; I just so happened to pop out in this giant clusterf*ck of a country, no reason to stick around while things get nasty.

IAMIAF - post some proof or hold your tongue. You remind me of Wolf Blitzer always bringing up David Duke's KKK involvement; yours is a very kosher tactic.


Book, Quantum/Phoenix, and you are the primary peddlers of the 'buy into our version of reality OR YOU'RE GONG TO HELL' meme - as in BIG TIME supporters of the death cult/beast system (you all ARE acting as advocates of being the obedient subjects of your betters). OTOH I'm more into the "Love first, then do what you will" (so long as you don't infringe upon the rights, liberties or property of others) camp.

God knows how I love irony. lol


Again with the smear tactics. Speaking of those, where's that proof I asked for? You seem quick to run your mouth yet slow to speak anything of substance.

My position is that income tax is just a shakedown, but the consequences of paying it are much worse. Again, I am not spouting nonsense about hellfire, that is your fabrication, not mine.

That said, most people are cranky when constipated, so you are likely irate from being full of shit. ;D

[Joe King]

By the way, nice hyperbole, you have a real flair for preaching the hellfire business. I am stating a matter of causality; if X then Y. If one skips taxes, the Feds will cause trouble. I do not like it either, but it is how it is until I get the hell out of this crappy country.

What country are you located in?


Well being he used the word "Feds" Im going to go out on a limb and say USA? :'(

That is not a country. That is a federation of independent nation-states.


In what world? you been freeze dried or doing hard time? The US states have had very little independent authority in over a century. States today are merely Governmental units for DC to rule.

hey 41,
If you read the Buck Act it will explain you that the "The State of Iowa" is different than the union state Iowa.
The feds had to pass the Buck Act so they could reach in and control their subjects that otherwise the Constitution forbid it except authorized by the Constitution such as millitary dock yards and millitary posts within a state.
Contrary to phoenix's tripe the federal government does obey the Constitution.
The State of Iowa is the federal state that may think is a union state which it is not. Different jurisdictions and matter between the both.

Hi. I'm not doubting your claim, as I also believe that the .gov obeys the Constitution. {even if that obedience hangs by a thread}
However, I am curious as to how a mere act of Congress can override the Constitution itself, as you're saying the enactment of the Buck Act did.
Thanks.

[sirgonzo420]

That said, I burned my hand on the wok once, but nothing knee-related.


Is your foot fully healed* after taking that AK round at pointblank range?

All I can say is, man, that must really, really hurt.

*if a foot hit by an AK round can ever 'fully' heal.


LOL... ok, so what did I miss?

AK rounds?

Feet?

???

[I am me, I am free]

In response to certain posts:

What is with this mark-of-the-beast crap I am seeing all over the place? Revelations is nothing more than John of Patmos getting stoned and writing down gibberish, I want to know what he was on so I can enjoy it next time I go to a concert.

As for Zeppelin, that is one of my favourite songs. My ancestors are Lithuanian; not quite known for hot springs but there are a few. That said, it has enough ice and snow for most tastes.

As for the issue of courage, I'm pragmatic; I just so happened to pop out in this giant clusterf*ck of a country, no reason to stick around while things get nasty.

IAMIAF - post some proof or hold your tongue. You remind me of Wolf Blitzer always bringing up David Duke's KKK involvement; yours is a very kosher tactic.


Book, Quantum/Phoenix, and you are the primary peddlers of the 'buy into our version of reality OR YOU'RE GONG TO HELL' meme - as in BIG TIME supporters of the death cult/beast system (you all ARE acting as advocates of being the obedient subjects of your betters). OTOH I'm more into the "Love first, then do what you will" (so long as you don't infringe upon the rights, liberties or property of others) camp.

God knows how I love irony. lol


Again with the smear tactics. Speaking of those, where's that proof I asked for? You seem quick to run your mouth yet slow to speak anything of substance.

My position is that income tax is just a shakedown, but the consequences of paying it are much worse. Again, I am not spouting nonsense about hellfire, that is your fabrication, not mine.

That said, most people are cranky when constipated, so you are likely irate from being full of sh*t. ;D


Thanks for the yuks!

[Skirnir]

That said, I burned my hand on the wok once, but nothing knee-related.


Is your foot fully healed* after taking that AK round at pointblank range?

All I can say is, man, that must really, really hurt.

*if a foot hit by an AK round can ever 'fully' heal.


LOL... ok, so what did I miss?

AK rounds?

Feet?

???


This AK business is something IAMIAF made up. He will either prove it, redact it, or be prompted to do one or the other every time I reply to one of his posts.

[Phoenix]

I posted this query earlier, and still no answer: What is it that motivates some to dog/haze other (complete strangers) into unquestioning compliance to the dictates of the corporate state when the manner in which others conduct their OWN affairs is really none of their business.

The only thing I can conclude is that the proponents of absolute subservience to the corporate state is because they are collectivists and statists. No matter how much they protest these labels, the facts are self-evident - they spend an inordinate amount of their time and effort making sure others submit and comply.

Still the question remains in my mind: how do they benefit from this expense of time and effort sheepherding others? I have to allow for the possibility that perhaps I will never comprehend that.


I challenge you to PROVE you drive around without a license, drive around without a real license plate, and successfully refuse to - without consequence - paying all the taxes the government demands of you.

Your refusal to provide this proof is taken as an admission you are LYING about doing so.

[Phoenix]

telling others that if they don't buy into YOUR version of reality that they are going straight to Hell, and ultimately the three of you are all in favor of the state representing you and acting as the Mob. YOU are the Mob! IOW, tyrants of the worst possible kind.

Anytime someone else can tell you what to do and when to do it, then you're institutionalized - a condition it appears the three of you prefer.


How many unsuspecting suckers have you helped put in prison for violating tax "laws"?

You gain their confidence - confidence art - and then turn them over to the cops. Or, are you, as Book asserts, a cop yourself? I'm suspecting so.

The "freeman on the land" game you're playing is over...it's obvious your purpose: draw out people who naively think you're "on their side."

[Phoenix]

4. Do you find you wear out the knees in your trousers when you work under the table while learning Chinese?


You're really getting desperate, punklani.

[Phoenix]

TRANSLATION: you lack the courage to stand


Lack of courage, eh? What's your name, your VIN, and the parcel numbers of your real estate. I want to verify all the claims you've made about avoiding paying tribute to the government.

[Libertarian_Guard]

I remember my Dad telling me how "they got Al Capone for not paying taxes, so they can easily get you" - - good advice!

[Skirnir]

4. Do you find you wear out the knees in your trousers when you work under the table while learning Chinese?


You're really getting desperate, punklani.


I think he is recalling one of his own many lurid experiences ;D

[palani]

You're really getting desperate, punklani.


A sign of desperation is mis-spelling user names.

[Skirnir]

You're really getting desperate, punklani.


A sign of desperation is mis-spelling user names.


That is not desperation, that is humour. Just like 'palony' (portmanteau of 'palani' and 'baloney', which you contribute), and paloony (portmanteau of 'palani' and 'loony', which you are).

http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/3380/baloney1.png http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4483/loony.png http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/3380/baloney1.png http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4483/loony.png http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/3380/baloney1.png http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4483/loony.png http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/3380/baloney1.png http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4483/loony.png http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/3380/baloney1.png http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4483/loony.png http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/3380/baloney1.png http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4483/loony.png http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/3380/baloney1.png http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4483/loony.png http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/3380/baloney1.png http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4483/loony.png http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/3380/baloney1.png http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4483/loony.png http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/3380/baloney1.png http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4483/loony.png

[palani]

You're really getting desperate, punklani.


A sign of desperation is mis-spelling user names.


That is not desperation, that is humour. Just like 'palony' (portmanteau of 'palani' and 'baloney', which you contribute), and paloony (portmanteau of 'palani' and 'loony', which you are).

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Forget to answer the question on whether you are comfortable with murder IF YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH IT?

[Skirnir]

You're really getting desperate, punklani.


A sign of desperation is mis-spelling user names.


That is not desperation, that is humour. Just like 'palony' (portmanteau of 'palani' and 'baloney', which you contribute), and paloony (portmanteau of 'palani' and 'loony', which you are).

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Forget to answer the question on whether you are comfortable with murder IF YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH IT?


First, tell me why you replaced my baloney and loony tunes pictures with smiley faces. Did I strike a nerve?

http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/3380/baloney1.png http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4483/loony.png http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/3380/baloney1.png http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4483/loony.png http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/3380/baloney1.png http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4483/loony.png http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/3380/baloney1.png http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4483/loony.png http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/3380/baloney1.png http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4483/loony.png http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/3380/baloney1.png http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4483/loony.png http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/3380/baloney1.png http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4483/loony.png http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/3380/baloney1.png http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4483/loony.png http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/3380/baloney1.png http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4483/loony.png http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/3380/baloney1.png http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4483/loony.png