ANalysis of Nuevo Laredo Cartel Gun Battle 7-16-10

[Heimdhal]

GRAPHIC PICTURE WARNING


http://www.scribd.com/doc/35201752/NuevoLaredoCartelGunBattle7-16-2010


Definitley some points to learn from this after-action report.

[I am me, I am free]

What made those HUGE holes in the side of that Suburban??

[wildcard]

WTF is right. That's like 20-30mm cannon type sh*t.

*I see the 40mm HE grenade, but I don't think it would make that punch through hole like that. Maybe an anti-personnel load?

**2 hour firefight. Holy balls.

[Ironfield]

Certainly an interesting photographic record of the events that took place, as you mention Wildcard those gaping holes must have been caused by something with a rather large caliber.

As for those caps with the tactical vests you go to all that trouble kitting themselves out one would have though they would go the extra mile and get a couple level 3 plates at least.

As for the running shoes being indicative of friend or foe in a running battle I’d want something a bit more obvious, wouldn’t you guys?

-Ironfield

[Heimdhal]

Certainly an interesting photographic record of the events that took place, as you mention Wildcard those gaping holes must have been caused by something with a rather large caliber.

As for those caps with the tactical vests you go to all that trouble kitting themselves out one would have though they would go the extra mile and get a couple level 3 plates at least.

As for the running shoes being indicative of friend or foe in a running battle I’d want something a bit more obvious, wouldn’t you guys?

-Ironfield



Yeah, Im also unsure of the shoes being a friendly force indicator. Maybe for before the gunfight starts, but certainly not during. If the guy aiming at you can stop and check out your shoes, you're not taking cover properly, and likley neither is he.

I think that this was an ambush against the "colored shoe" cartel so I dont know how the shoes would play a role in friendly force ID'ing if they werente expecting to be in an engagment.

Also of note is the time, as wild card pointed out. This was a small unit firefight, half a dozen to a dozen guys total. It took 2 hours. Thats an excessive amount of time to be a small unit firefight, every minute you're in it exponetionaly increases your chance of death. Neither force seemed to be willing to retreat, or perhaps the ambushed force simply couldnt.

The lose ammo is interesting. As the Report suggest, it may be from clearing stoppages, though that seems like an awfull lot. What I think is also plausible is that the ambushed force didnt have enough pre-loaded mags and after 2 hours of shooting, had to reload their mags by hand, which is bad, bad news in the middle of an urban firefight. THis is likley what got them killed.

[I am me, I am free]

I don't think it's possible to carry enough mags for a protracted firefight outside of a firebase.

Shoot and scoot is the rule of thumb if you don't have overwhelming mega resources (like airpower and arty) to back you up. And ultimately the best is not to be shooting/get shot at all if you can help it. As stated, every minute one is in a firefight exponentially increases one's chances of getting shot.

[Heimdhal]

I don't think it's possible to carry enough mags for a protracted firefight outside of a firebase.

Shoot and scoot is the rule of thumb if you don't have overwhelming mega resources (like airpower and arty) to back you up. And ultimately the best is not to be shooting/get shot at all if you can help it. As stated, every minute one is in a firefight exponentially increases one's chances of getting shot.



You're right, you cant carry enough mags if you have no real logistical support (which would be everyone in a SHTF situation, like this one). Thats what I was kinda getting at. The shoot and scoot is a must and it seems some of the participants in this engagments did just that. THey found 40mm grenades, but no launchers, which means they were either throwing these things (doubtfull) or the ones that had the launchers got out of there alive.


Also another point of fact. It seems accuracy is not very important to the cartels, which is likley why they spent 2 hours not hitting anything and/or ran out of ammo.

When you know you have no fresh ammo supplies coming up from the rear, it usualy best NOT to employ spray and pray. ;)

[SWRichmond]

Seems to me that you can't really find effective cover behind a sheet metal vehicle that is up off the road on tires. You can get hit in the feet / lower legs, then you start to bleed out and can't concentrate on continuing the fight. Also seems to me that whoever planned the ambush didn't plan it very well or had bad intel, as an ambush shouldn't turn into a prolonged fight. In a two-hour period, was either side able to call for backup? Was there no backup to be had? Did one side get backup and the other none? Was backup an hour away? How many men were able to leave the scene, and how did they leave? Once the vehicles become disabled, does the fight move on foot over open suburban / urban streets? See? Nothing but questions.

Having said that, the amount of ammunition carried and expended is bracing.

[wildcard]

A few hand grenades would have ended this quickly. (I guess not all the cartels have piñas after all.)

I wonder if they wore matching shoes so their buds wouldn't shoot them in the feet under the cars?

[aybesee123]

What made those HUGE holes in the side of that Suburban??


.50 Cal BMG?

http://www.defensereview.com/1_31_2004/Accuracy%20International%20AS50%20.50%20BMG%20Semi-Auto%20Rifle_1.jpg

[wildcard]

Nah, not a .50, the exit might get to baseball sized, but those are entrance impacts.

[learn2swim]

Hey, at least they're using American trucks built in Mexico...... ;D

[wildcard]

They should start an ad campaign on how many AK rounds it takes to stop an F-150. ;D

[BrewTech]

They should start an ad campaign on how many AK rounds it takes to stop an F-150. ;D


Maybe Toby Keith could write a jingle about it.

[Heimdhal]

Some updated info on that SUV with the 20mm holes in it:




http://www.strategypage.com/military_photos/military_photos_2008060614332.aspx


Quote
Last April 9th, at Dugway Proving Ground in Utah, two soldiers were driving a rented SUV about five kilometers from the part of the range used for live firing. It was at night, and an F-16 that thought it was firing at something in the live fire area, lit up the SUV instead. Only 70 20mm rounds were fired. Fortunately, the two people in the SUV were only injured (both from flying glass, the passenger got a dislocated shoulder as he rapidly exited the vehicle when it quickly turned off the road and stopped.) The investigation of how this happen has not been completed.


At the link is the picture of the SUV. So I think its safe to question the photos in the last page of the report above. But none the less., the rest of it is informative

[wildcard]

http://www.fototime.com/%7B20DDB7CF-3EEA-4711-B97F-68A3DD913E6D%7D/picture.JPG

50 on the left, 20mm on the right. I knew it looked a lot like warthog cannon damage.

http://www.vva828bwsc.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/a-10-warthog-tank-buster-1a.jpg

[I am me, I am free]

http://www.fototime.com/%7B20DDB7CF-3EEA-4711-B97F-68A3DD913E6D%7D/picture.JPG

50 on the left, 20mm on the right. I knew it looked a lot like warthog cannon damage.

http://www.vva828bwsc.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/a-10-warthog-tank-buster-1a.jpg


The A-10 shoots 30mm rounds, not 20mm.

.50 cal in the middle -

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:oufWbImGbUKRTM:http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/9773/dscf1389largeon2.jpg&t=1

[wildcard]

I never said it didn't. If you'll see my first post I said it looked like 20-30mm cannon damage.

*let me guess. You fly one without a license plate? :P