So which one is it?

[iOWNme]

DISCLAIMER: This is not a question for us to debate here! After seeing all the many threads on Income Tax, Property Tax, Motor Vehicle Tax, etc. I decided to make a Poll for members to vote on what they think is really going on.



1. You believe the US Constitution is ALIVE and well, and can still be enjoyed 100% to those who have not surrendered their Birthright via consent in exchange for Privileges and Benefits.
(By picking option 1 you are stating that ALL Americans who want to renounce all contracts with government, may enjoy all of their Creator's endowed Rights to Life, Liberty and Property)

2. You believe the US Constitution is DEAD and gone, and no amount of Non-Consent is going to bring it back from the ashes. Tyranny is what we have, no choice.
(By picking option 2 you are stating that NO American can escape the 'Obligations' the system puts on them. Non-Consent matters not, we live under 100% Tyranny)


Contrary to popular belief, there is no gray area or in between here. It is one or the other. You cannot have it both ways. (Although the Feds want you to think so)

Please do not start endless debates here, but post your thoughts and what you voted if you like. You can go to many threads here and hash it out with each other! I just really want to see what the distinguished members of GSUS truly think.

[iOWNme]

32 views and only 9 votes?

BUMP

[Plastic]

It is dead, but I also believe in resurrection.

Long live the Republic!!

[The Great Ag]

For those who think the US CON is dead and NOT functioning, then there is NO rule of law, other than necessity. In other words, everyone can do anything he/she likes subject ONLY to rule of gun or rule of mob.

Funny it does not seem that way to me, but then I live in a rural county. Perhaps it is different elsewhere.

The Great Ag

[horseshoe3]

Just because there is no rule of law doesn't mean that people will automatically start acting like animals. Most people have morals that cause them to do right even when the law doesn't force them to.

[The Great Ag]

Just because there is no rule of law doesn't mean that people will automatically start acting like animals. Most people have morals that cause them to do right even when the law doesn't force them to.



Hey, Horseshoe:
So you believe the US CON is dead, but people's morality is what keeps things from breaking down into anarchy? There are 50 state gov'ts and a federal gov't, military, police forces and a judicial system that all sweat oaths to support and protect the US CON. If it seems any one of those is NOT following their oath, they probably are. Appearances can be deceiving. Get to the bottom of it to make sure. If they are, call them on it.

The biggest apparition with the US gov't is spending. First the 14th Amendment forces CONgress not to question the public debt. The exact phrasing is, ". . .the public debt. . .shall not be questioned." Secondly, the nature of the FRN allows CONgress to spend beyond CONstitutional limits. Lastly, there are several vague terms contained within the US CON that can be construed to give CONgress nearly unlimited power.

As JetGraphics pointed out, the USA is the ONLY active CONstitution in the world where the people are sovereign. All other CONs have the people second.

Any rewriting to create another CON will make things worse with the current CONgress.

It is dead, but I also believe in resurrection.
Be careful what you wish for.

THe Great Ag

[Miteysquirrel]

My opinion is there are 3 classes ...you know who the first ones are....second class are the ones who protect the first class and keep them in power...and we are the third class....with no Constitutional Rights 'they' do not wish us to have...at any time they want us not to have them.

So the dummies out there breaking their ass, working paycheck to paycheck, have the illusion of freedom and the protection granted by the Founders...but its all BS.

You only have what you have, because they havent taken it yet.


It doesnt make me feel very good to know this.

[k-os]

Just because there is no rule of law doesn't mean that people will automatically start acting like animals. Most people have morals that cause them to do right even when the law doesn't force them to.



I agree with your first sentence, completely. The second sentence I agree with as well, but I'd just like to add that upbringing (morals) combined with programming (media), zombification (television, pharmaceuticals, fluoride) are what keeps us in line.

Why did I just register my RV title, automatically, without thinking twice about it? Programming. I have been told throughout my life that not doing so will result in something I do not want (courts, fines or worse). I never considered another option (if there is genuinely another option, I do not know, and as stated in the OP, it's not up for debate here).

I think this was a very good question, Sui Juris, and I could not answer it immediately using the black and white terms you presented.

It's dead, we just haven't realized it yet. This is a very sad realization for me.

[iOWNme]

Just because there is no rule of law doesn't mean that people will automatically start acting like animals. Most people have morals that cause them to do right even when the law doesn't force them to.


Why did I just register my RV title, automatically, without thinking twice about it? Programming. I have been told throughout my life that not doing so will result in something I do not want (courts, fines or worse). I never considered another option (if there is genuinely another option, I do not know, and as stated in the OP, it's not up for debate here).

I think this was a very good question, Sui Juris, and I could not answer it immediately using the black and white terms you presented.

It's dead, we just haven't realized it yet. This is a very sad realization for me.


Good post K-os...I admire your honesty!

I voted its still alive and well. Maybe just because i have some small feeling tucked away inside me that says this is all just an illusion....But I may find myself 6ft deep if i choose to try and step outside their illusion and into the TRUTH of reality.

[the riot act]

I also believe that the Connie is dead. Admiralty Law now prevails everywhere in the courts.

The rule of law now is whatever the Corporation decides it is. The only people who fall under the original Connie are illegal aliens, believe it or not. That is why the big push for amnesty (along with votes of course). They need to get these illegals SSN# and to forfeit their Constitutional rights, and pay into the Corp.

[Phoenix]

The Constitution, from the beginning, was the instrument by which tyranny would be established. Many of the Founders knew this, which is why they tried, in vain, to control the Constitution with the Bill of Rights.

The Constitution remains "in force" in so much as it enables the US Government to control the citizens or the states. For instance, the "interstate commerce clause" that is used to justify ANYTHING the Federal regime wants to impose or control.

However, if a citizen* or state tries to enforce the words of the Constitution against the Federal regime, it's an uphill battle at best, and probably complete defeat in most cases.





* please - do not obfuscate this issue with the invalid sophistry relating to what citizen "really" means. "Citizen" in this instance merely means a lawful resident of one of the states of the united States of America.

[Joe King]

The Constitution, from the beginning, was the instrument by which tyranny would be established. Many of the Founders knew this, which is why they tried, in vain, to control the Constitution with the Bill of Rights.

The Constitution remains "in force" in so much as it enables the US Government to control the citizens or the states. For instance, the "interstate commerce clause" that is used to justify ANYTHING the Federal regime wants to impose or control.

However, if a citizen* or state tries to enforce the words of the Constitution against the Federal regime, it's an uphill battle at best, and probably complete defeat in most cases.





* please - do not obfuscate this issue with the invalid sophistry relating to what citizen "really" means. "Citizen" in this instance merely means a lawful resident of one of the states of the united States of America.
The way you wrote the part in bold means a citizen of the several States. {the little "u"}



Also, if the Constitution is "dead" as far as our Rights go, does anyone still actually have recognized-by-gov Sovereign Rights? {open question}

[Phoenix]

Contrary to popular belief, there is no gray area or in between here. It is one or the other. You cannot have it both ways.


Contrary to your belief, the Constitution is a weapon used against the People and the states. Some parts are "alive," and some are very "dead." Further discussion in my other posts.

[Phoenix]

Just because there is no rule of law doesn't mean that people will automatically start acting like animals. Most people have morals that cause them to do right even when the law doesn't force them to.


I agree with your first sentence, completely. The second sentence I agree with as well, but I'd just like to add that upbringing (morals) combined with programming (media), zombification (television, pharmaceuticals, fluoride) are what keeps us in line.


Rewards also "keep us in line." Most Americans derive some direct benefit from the Federal regime, especially those connected to the Military-Industrial Complex. If the rewards were to be withdrawn, social order would break down quickly.




Why did I just register my RV title, automatically, without thinking twice about it? Programming. I have been told throughout my life that not doing so will result in something I do not want (courts, fines or worse). I never considered another option (if there is genuinely another option, I do not know


k-os, you do know. There isn't one. All sane people know there isn't one, though many falsely claim there is. One either has a license plate, or you get incessantly stopped and harassed.




and as stated in the OP, it's not up for debate here).


The OP cannot ask such a question, and then expect to be able to control debate on such a topic. That is like the Jewsmedia "polls" where they offer options that only maneuver the polled into predesired options.

[horseshoe3]

Just because there is no rule of law doesn't mean that people will automatically start acting like animals. Most people have morals that cause them to do right even when the law doesn't force them to.



Hey, Horseshoe:
So you believe the US CON is dead, but people's morality is what keeps things from breaking down into anarchy?

People's morality on a local level and the mobs you referenced above on a collective level.

I could steal from my neighbor and he would never know it (and vice versa). I would not be caught or punished. There is no realistic threat of a gun or mob in this case, nor does the rule of law apply if I choose to ignore it. The only thing that keeps me from stealing from him is my moral standard. This applies at a local level.

Mel Gibson has made statments that many people believe are true. He is well within his rights under the rule of law to make these statements. Nevertheless, he is punished ruthlessly for his words by a mob. This mob is keeping some form of order. It is not the order you and I want, but it is order. This applies at the collective level.

Congress passes "laws" that are clearly unconstitutional and nobody stops them. Why? They control the biggest and best armed mob in the world. It makes no difference that they are operating outside the rule of law, when they can enforce their order through mob rule. The Constitution is indeed dead. It has been replaced by a heirarchy of mobs.

[Phoenix]

I also believe that the Connie is dead. Admiralty Law now prevails everywhere in the courts.


If it were only so easy as to just avoid a gold-fringed flag!

The Law of Force has been "the law" since the Constitution was enacted.




The rule of law now is whatever the Corporation decides it is.


The Constitution was enacted for business, and not for the People. But your point is essentially correct.

[Phoenix]

CONstitution


Interesting spelling. The Constitution was a CON from the beginning. Unlawfully imposed on the People. Had nothing to do with securing liberty, either.

[Liquid]

My two bits is that the constitution is about as alive and well as a guy sitting on death row. He's still breathing, and may be healthy...but has already been "convicted" and just waiting for a fateful date.

The constitution's death sentence was the patriot act, martial law act, etc. At any time, our government can put the constitution to rest for good.

There is a chance though that the guy sitting on death row may be granted his innocence...and that's what I am hoping for with our constitution.

[Bluegill]

Dead and rotting for quite some time. It won't be long before it is declared obsolete and no longer relevant, then officially nullified.

That document has been getting violated since before the ink dried. The more I read and learn, the more I'm finding that document wasn't ever what we think it is/was. But in all fairness, it is was the best thing humanity has produced so far. With some tweaking, it could be as close to perfect as humanity could possibly attain.

But, no document will ever mean anything if nobody will enforce it. The lazy sheeple submitizens did just that. The people can be blamed for it's demise.

[Joe King]

Dead and rotting for quite some time. It won't be long before it is declared obsolete and no longer relevant, then officially nullified.

That document has been getting violated since before the ink dried. The more I read and learn, the more I'm finding that document wasn't ever what we think it is/was. But in all fairness, it is was the best thing humanity has produced so far. With some tweaking, it could be as close to perfect as humanity could possibly attain.

But, no document will ever mean anything if nobody will enforce it. The lazy sheeple submitizens did just that. The people can be blamed for it's demise.
So what you're saying is that the People tend to get the kind of gov they deserve?
i.e. if the People can't be bothered to actually know their Rights, as well as stand up for them, why should the people who run the gov do it for them?

Has a mostly ignorant People ever remained free for long?

Airplanes have auto-pilot, not governments.

[Bluegill]

Dead and rotting for quite some time. It won't be long before it is declared obsolete and no longer relevant, then officially nullified.

That document has been getting violated since before the ink dried. The more I read and learn, the more I'm finding that document wasn't ever what we think it is/was. But in all fairness, it is was the best thing humanity has produced so far. With some tweaking, it could be as close to perfect as humanity could possibly attain.

But, no document will ever mean anything if nobody will enforce it. The lazy sheeple submitizens did just that. The people can be blamed for it's demise.
So what you're saying is that the People tend to get the kind of gov they deserve? Yes.
i.e. if the People can't be bothered to actually know their Rights, as well as stand up for them, why should the people who run the gov do it for them? Yes. Right or wrong, how can somebody respect somebody else who won't respect themselves. Apathy gives the green light of pre-approval...

Has a mostly ignorant People ever remained free for long? Nope.

Airplanes have auto-pilot, not governments.

[iOWNme]

The only people who fall under the original Connie are illegal aliens, believe it or not. That is why the big push for amnesty (along with votes of course). They need to get these illegals SSN# and to forfeit their Constitutional rights, and pay into the Corp.


So the US Constitution IS ALIVE. You just admitted it. You also admitted that if a 'US Citizen' wants to denounce that contract, they will fall back into the protection of the US CON.

You also admit that it will take a forfeiture of Constitutional Rights. (is Creator endowed)

I think you may have voted backwards according to what you posted.....Im not trying to start another debate, just responding to what i see in your words. Please correct me if i am wrong....

[iOWNme]

Contrary to popular belief, there is no gray area or in between here. It is one or the other. You cannot have it both ways.


Contrary to your belief, the Constitution is a weapon used against the People and the states. Some parts are "alive," and some are very "dead." Further discussion in my other posts.


If ANY part of it is still alive, THEN IT HAS LIFE LEFT IN IT, and by definition is NOT DEAD.

[iOWNme]

Phoenix - You are right, I shouldnt have asked for a non debate here. My bad......LOL Without honest debate, none of us will evolve our learning curve.

I have seen the Patriot Act mentioned several times as a Killer to the US CON.

Meanwhile the 10 Planks of the Communist Manifesto have been enacted for at least 90 years prior to the 'Patriot Act'......Hows that for TRUTH?

[Silver Rocket Bitches!]

Not dead but dying.

Death exacerbated by the apathy of the citizens and the tyranny of executive orders.

A death by 1,000 cuts.

[The Great Ag]

CONstitution


Interesting spelling. The Constitution was a CON from the beginning. Unlawfully imposed on the People. Had nothing to do with securing liberty, either.
I do that because almost NO ONE understands what the CONstitution is. In short, it is a corporate charter, very similar to Wal-mart, IBM or McDonald's. It is the corporate charter that gives life to the corporations. They exist no where else, EXCEPT for their charters. Take away the buildings, do those corporations still exist? Yes. Remove the people, do those corporations still exist? Yes. Remove both people and buildings, do they exist? Yes. The United States is no different. The US CON and prior to that The Articles of Confederation (AoC) were the documents that gave life to the United States. Alter the CON or a corporate charter and the nature of the organization is changed. Which is what happens with Amendments to the US CON.

To put the USA on top of the US, the 14th, 16th, 17th must be repealed and the fed reserve must be abolished. I do not see any of that happening any time soon.

Having said that, it is my opinion the US CON was structured in such a way as to allow this type of gov't.

The AoC placed great limitations on the US gov't. There is NO way the AoC would allow the gov't to grow as big as it has. The US CON totally restrucured the power structure in the Union. With the AoC, the states had the lion's share of power. Under the US CON, the US gov't stole the lion's share. So much so, several delegates from the states inquired, what power is left to the states?

A revolution to alter or change the US CON will likely end the US CON as we know it, making it more difficult for people to exist without gov't interference.

The Great Ag

[Phoenix]

If ANY part of it is still alive, THEN IT HAS LIFE LEFT IN IT, and by definition is NOT DEAD.


The Constitution is not a living thing (despite what liberal "activist judges" claim), and every part of it is severable (i.e., the First Amendment is valid even all other parts are canceled, ignored, or otherwise void).

[Phoenix]

Meanwhile the 10 Planks of the Communist Manifesto have been enacted for at least 90 years prior to the 'Patriot Act'......Hows that for TRUTH?


It took only 7 years for overt tyranny to manifest itself under the Constitution of 1787:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_Sedition_Acts

The Constitution HAS BEEN THE PROBLEM since the beginning.

[iOWNme]

Meanwhile the 10 Planks of the Communist Manifesto have been enacted for at least 90 years prior to the 'Patriot Act'......Hows that for TRUTH?

The Constitution HAS BEEN THE PROBLEM since the beginning.


Did you know i agree with you 100% about that?

However, this poll is too see how many think its still around, and how many think its dead. (Alive = obeyed) (Dead = Disregarded)


There is more LAW saying its alive, as opposed to dead.

But there is more FORCE saying its dead, as opposed to alive.


We may have just figured out what needs to be done.

:)

[FunnyMoney]

No matter how good the document might be, corruption could care less. Centralized / Federal govts have worn out their welcome. Somebody did say, "it's just a piece of paper."

[Joe King]

All the Constitution needs is to work is for it to be interpreted in a completely literal sense that maintains the orignal intent.
i.e. it is not a living document to be periodically re-defined.

That would include defining interstate commerce as actual interstate commerce only.


The only reason one would want it to be a so-called "living document" is so its meaning can be changed over time.