Gold Seizure Mechanism in Place

[madfranks]

Link Here (http://www.numismaster.com/ta/numis/Article.jsp?ad=article&ArticleId=12872)


It’s not the dog days of summer, but rather the economy that’s causing a number of people to query my law office about gold seizure scenarios that they believe might take place, what they can do to prevent it, and what they might be able to do about it.

These inquiries come from sincere believers not in conspiracy theories, but rather in the staying power of gold in both the short term and the long run. Their inquiries are genuine, the concerns expressed real – these are hard money strategists, not people who go off with half-baked ideas.

I have no great insight to offer as to whether or not gold seizure is in the offing, but there are some interesting reasons cited by many as to why the government of the United States – and maybe the world as well – needs to nationalize gold, if only for the purpose of making sure that governments, not citizens, remain in control of the economy.

In talking with many of the people, they question how the government could possibly enforce a gold seizure and go on to tell me that no power on earth could make them give up their gold. My rejoinder is that some of the best literature has been written by authors from prison, to which they often sublimely respond that the government lacked the resources to prosecute people – and that even in the old days, that wasn’t something that the government did (prosecute people for declining to turn in their gold.

Let’s clear up some misconceptions as to what happened in 1933-1934; what legal authority the President has to order the seizure of gold (or other precious metal); what evidence of compulsion was used before (and what could be used now), and just what is so magical about this metal that makes some individuals covet it, and makes governments fear it.

Let’s start with the premise that there is no element of compulsion that can be employed to make a citizen turn in gold coin or bullion, especially if the coin is legal tender. The premise is absolutely wrong.

In 1933, President Franklin D. Roosevelt (using the “Trading with the Enemy Act of 1917”) issued an executive order on April 5 requiring that less than a month later on or before May 1, 1933, all persons in possession or control of gold coin, gold bullion, and Gold Certificates (i.e., paper currency redeemable in gold coin of the United States) to turn them in to any Federal Reserve bank or any “member bank” of the Federal Reserve system.

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More at link (http://www.numismaster.com/ta/numis/Article.jsp?ad=article&ArticleId=12872)

[madfranks]

there are some interesting reasons cited by many as to why the government of the United States – and maybe the world as well – needs to nationalize gold, if only for the purpose of making sure that governments, not citizens, remain in control of the economy.

I couldn't disagree with this statement more. It is the people, not the government, who create the economy in the first place, government only gets in the way.

[k-os]

The people who were financially able to hold onto their gold through the forfeiture (seizure?), the Great Depression and after, found their gold to be worth much more in the end.

I sold most of mine for the RV, so I don't have gold worries like this anymore, but what I do have left will continue to be mine, whether a confiscation occurs or not.

[palani]

Let’s start with the premise that there is no element of compulsion that can be employed to make a citizen turn in gold coin or bullion, especially if the coin is legal tender. The premise is absolutely wrong.

In 1933, President Franklin D. Roosevelt (using the “Trading with the Enemy Act of 1917”) issued an executive order on April 5 requiring that less than a month later on or before May 1, 1933, all persons in possession or control of gold coin, gold bullion, and Gold Certificates (i.e., paper currency redeemable in gold coin of the United States) to turn them in to any Federal Reserve bank or any “member bank” of the Federal Reserve system.

First off, the executive order discussed was issued and several days later the TRADING WITH THE ENEMY ACT OF 1917 was altered to include U.S. citizens thereby making the executive order legit (in FDRs opinion).

Second off, those notices FDR placed around the country were placed in POST OFFICES, places identifed as U.S. territory. They applied to anyone living on FEDERAL TERRITORY and not to any who might live in the several States. If you don't know who you are and where you are then be prepared to get fleeced frequently by government regulations (aka pseudo-regulation).

[gunDriller]

The people who were financially able to hold onto their gold through the forfeiture (seizure?), the Great Depression and after, found their gold to be worth much more in the end.

I sold most of mine for the RV, so I don't have gold worries like this anymore, but what I do have left will continue to be mine, whether a confiscation occurs or not.


i think so much of the general public would have a similar reaction that it would be impractical - if their goal was to raise revenue.

when the government does things like this, the general public just digs in their heels.

i think it's possible the government would attempt confiscation again, but that if they did, it would be to escalate the Civil War that may well have already started. (personally i would say it has already started, but i don't want to derail the thread.)

i wonder how Roosevelt enforced the confiscation. they didn't have Internet in those days, probably not much record-keeping of who had paper money and who had gold coins. somehow, some people turned in their gold.

what this all reminds me of is the Obamacare tax law, the 1099 law that kicks in in 2012. that is a huge & far-reaching law. it changes the way that business has been for thousands of years - informal/ un-official economic activity paid for with cash. the Obama-care tax law has a similar effect as confiscation.

i think one of the best things we can do in this situation is to develop alternative markets where the IRS is unable to tread. they may not see the "no taxation without representation" sign, but that is what this is about.

so i would say the gold seizure mechanisms are in place. one of them is the Obama-care law. another is the currency controls on gold exiting the country (the US gov. claims the right to tax "all un-realized gains"). that means, even if you aren't selling it, they will tax you as if you were selling it at the border. if they don't have your receipts to establish a cost basis, they either tax the entire amount (a 28% tax to leave the US with your precious metals), or, they just seize it at their discretion.

so actually, yes, i really have to agree with the title.


there's a business niche here. ;D a gold expatriation service at a fair price. being able to paddle a surfboard 28 miles might come in real handy here.

[Saul Mine]

You should remember that governments are very skillful at getting their way, and they are only interested in laws when enforcing them against people. Government is like weather: rights or no rights, you are most unwise to argue with it.

[Korbin Dallas]

If they can't find it, they can't seize it.

[zap]

Never buy gold or silver, and don't leave a paper trail, and for God sakes keep your mouth shut.

[Ragnarok]

Gold may also be "confiscated" by making things so bad economically that gold is sold for currency just to get by, and taxed both on that sale and any subsequent purchase. Kinda like the inflation "tax".

R.

[1970 silver art]

Gold may also be "confiscated" by making things so bad economically that gold is sold for currency just to get by, and taxed both on that sale and any subsequent purchase. Kinda like the inflation "tax".

R.


Yeah that makes sense to me because it seems to me that it would be easier for the gov't to tax it to oblivion as opposed to physical confiscation.

EDIT: I wonder if the 1099 tax law for 2012 will be the beginning of that "taxation" of gold?

[1970 silver art]

Never buy gold or silver, and don't leave a paper trail, and for God sakes keep your mouth shut.


I will have to add that if a person feels that they must buy gold and/or silver and they end up leaving a paper trail and have a severe case of diarrhea of the mouth, then it is an absolute must that a person buys a very nice boat. ;D

[Plastic]

it is an absolute must that a person buys a rickety boat. ;D



Fix't :P

[Liquid]

it is an absolute must that a person buys a rickety boat. ;D



Fix't :P


Indeed, as a rickety boat brings truth to the term b.o.a.t. (Break Out Another Thousand)

One can not possible own any gold while endeared with an old rickety boat!

A good read, and example of this, is the the book...'The Boat Who Wouldn't Float', by Farley Mowat, which I am currently reading with much laughter and understanding.

[1970 silver art]

it is an absolute must that a person buys a rickety boat. ;D



Fix't :P


I stand corrected. The condition of the boat makes all of the difference when it comes to taking your PM's with you on a "boating trip". ;D

[Bluegill]

there are some interesting reasons cited by many as to why the government of the United States – and maybe the world as well – needs to nationalize gold, if only for the purpose of making sure that governments, not citizens, remain in control of the economy.

I couldn't disagree with this statement more. It is the people, not the government, who create the economy in the first place, government only gets in the way.


It said control, not create the economy. Yes government gets in the way, but the fact is, they currently are in control. We can see how that has been working out... They would want to ensure that doesn't change (for you know who's benefit...)

[Bluegill]

While I doubt that physical confiscation would ever become a reality, never say never. I don't fear physical confiscation as much as I fear a more back door approach.

Taxation, regulation, licensing and documentation is what makes me more nervous.

The State could mandate all PM's have to be registered, owners must purchase renewable licenses and permits to own, transfer and store PM's. Fully disclosing all transfers. With the mandatory book keeping and actual metals available for inspection at any time by the authorities.

There would be;

Storage taxes
Holding taxes
Transfer taxes
Profit taxes

Registration fees
Inspection fees
Document fees
Transportation fees

Non registered PM's would become contraband. Undocumented transfers would be illegal. Confiscated on site with out compensation, or just a huge penalty fee.

The possibilities are endless...

All the hoopla about Goldline http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wirestory?id=10688290&page=1 and Obamacare are making it look as real as ever. They only need to confiscate the stored wealth, not the physical metal...

But, like I said, never say never. As far as physical confiscation, I fear the use of asset forfeiture more than an FDR style confiscation. The state and local Junta are currently employing this tactic, but I can see the Feds expanding on this. The U.S. Marshal Service is already well rehearsed.

The Junta take your PM's, then the IRS gives you a good sodomizing by fining you for the unrecorded transfer...