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Ponce
4th September 2010, 10:31 AM
Coin Composition Change Included In Obama's 2011 Budget.

By Alec Nevalainen
Coinflation.com
February 02, 2010



This section appears in the Terminations, Reductions, and Savings portion of the budget. This document can be found at http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2011/assets/trs.pdf.

One omission from the proposed composition change is the Presidential and Native American Dollars. Either they are satisfied with the current composition or they were left out inadvertently (which I can understand, the Presidential dollar program is easily forgettable).

Full text from page 100:


OTHER SAVINGS: COINAGE MATERIAL
Department of the Treasury

The Budget proposes to provide the U.S. Mint with greater flexibility in the material composition of coins to reduce its losses on some coins and the production costs associated with volatile metal prices.


Justification

The Mint's primary cost driver is the price of metal, a factor over which it has no control. Daily spot prices of copper and zinc, the Mint's two main metallic materials, have fluctuated in excess of 100 percent, and the price of nickel by 500 percent in recent years.¹ This contributes to volatile and negative margins on both the penny and nickel: in recent years the penny has cost approximately 1.8 cents and the nickel approximately 9 cents to produce.² Costs have exceeded the value of these two coins by over $100 million in prior years. Through its gains on other coins, the Mint annually returns hundreds of millions of dollars to the Treasury General Fund (GF) and is funded by the Mint Public Enterprise Fund.

Greater flexibility in the composition of coinage materials could enable the Mint to utilize less expensive metals in the minting process and substantially reduce its production costs. Using alternative coinage materials could save $150 million annually after an initial period of development and capital adjustments. These savings result from increased seigniorage, or the difference between the face value of the coin paid by the Federal Reserve and the cost of production. Seigniorage increases the available means of financing, but has no direct budgetary impact. Specifically, the Budget includes provisions that authorize the Department of the Treasury to approve alternative coinage compositions and weights across five denominations (half dollar, quarter, dime, nickel, and penny).

The 2011 Budget would bring the costs of coins more in-line with their face values and create a more sustainable, cost-effective 21st Century use of materials in the minting process. The Budget enables the Department of the Treasury to explore, analyze, and approve new, less expensive materials for all circulating coins based on factors that will result in the highest quality of coin production at the most cost-effective price. Such factors may include physical, chemical, metallurgical and technical characteristics; material, fabrication, minting, and distribution costs; materials availability and sources of raw materials; durability; effects on sorting, handling, packaging and vending machines; and resistance to counterfeiting. The added flexibility the Budget proposes will improve the minting process and enable the Mint to mitigate the high, volatile costs of commodity metals.

Citations

1. Global InfoMine, Metals Prices, http://www.infomine.com/investment/metalprices/ (January 2010).
2. USA TODAY, Coins Cost More to Make than Face Value, http://www.usatoday.com/money/2006-05-09-penny-usat_x.htm (May 2006).



My cynicism towards Congress prevents me from being optimistic about the change, not sure if the zinc, nickel, and copper lobby will let it happen. Canada's current system of a steel-based composition coin would seem to be the odds-on favorite if the change were to occur. Aluminum is another alternative, but the weight of each coin would be significantly less and probably upset the coin-op industry.

Using history as a guide, it's easy to predict this section will be dropped before the budget is passed. Jarden Zinc and many others with a direct interest in maintaining the status quo have been very effective with their lobbying efforts (at least this is how it appears).

It will be very interesting to watch how this unfolds.

Please visit Coinflation.com for more updates.

http://www.coinflation.com/coinage_material.html

madfranks
4th September 2010, 01:00 PM
Honestly, copper (plated) cents and nickels made of nickel are gross misrepresentations of our monetary system. Aluminum, steel, or plastic coins would do a better job of showing just how cheap our money really is.

Gaillo
4th September 2010, 01:03 PM
All to save $150 Million per year? The Pentagon blows that much every morning when they turn on the lights and air-conditioners! ;D

Half Sense
4th September 2010, 09:48 PM
This would be a handy time to introduce embedded RFID in all coinage.

ShortJohnSilver
5th September 2010, 07:54 AM
This would be a handy time to introduce embedded RFID in all coinage.


If they make it out of some kind of supertough plastic or glass, especially, as these materials do not impede RF the way that metal does.

Korbin Dallas
5th September 2010, 10:15 AM
They might as well make coinage out of TP, then at least it would have some value.

Ponce
5th September 2010, 10:17 AM
At .09 cents per nickel that would mean that my stach just went up from about $12,000 to about $21,000.........nice, done while sittin on my tush ;D

Fortyone
5th September 2010, 10:44 AM
At .09 cents per nickel that would mean that my stach just went up from about $12,000 to about $21,000.........nice, done while sittin on my tush ;D


whats the legality on nickels as far as melt?

Half Sense
5th September 2010, 11:13 AM
Nickels? I just drill a hole in them and sell them as washers for $0.29

Ponce
5th September 2010, 11:24 AM
Forty One? they will be more valuable than the dollar............why melt them?

Half Sence? that's exactly what I posted long ago.....less expensive to make them out of nickels than to buy them at the hardware store.

platinumdude
5th September 2010, 12:10 PM
They should get rid of the stupid penny.

Kali
5th September 2010, 12:18 PM
This would be a handy time to introduce embedded RFID in all coinage.


Or better yet implant the RFID chip in our skin and do away with all cash.

Neuro
5th September 2010, 12:47 PM
They should get rid of the stupid penny.

Next year they probably will make very few of them, but still allow it in circulation. Expect them to disappear from circulation in practise in a few years. Metal hoarders will see to that...

Ponce, do you have 240.000 nickels? A good investment I think...

Ponce
5th September 2010, 02:03 PM
Neuro, if that around $12,000 then yes, that's what I have..........could be $10,600 ore even $14,300, I never counted them but for the bricks themselves, 855 bricks.

madfranks
5th September 2010, 02:09 PM
They should get rid of the stupid penny.


Don't be upset at the cent (penny), be upset with the monetary policies of the last century which turned the cent from a nice solid copper coin to a cheap zinc token.

StackerKen
5th September 2010, 02:19 PM
At .09 cents per nickel that would mean that my stach just went up from about $12,000 to about $21,000.........nice, done while sittin on my tush ;D


Ponce? melt value is $0.06. on a 1946-2010 Jefferson Nickel right now

But I agree those are great Idea to have

Twisted Titan
5th September 2010, 04:52 PM
Gersham's Law is coming home to roost.........

willie pete
5th September 2010, 05:42 PM
All to save $150 Million per year? The Pentagon blows that much every morning when they turn on the lights and air-conditioners! ;D


Exactly....that's the first thing I thought of, $150m? In comparison, I heard the other day someone's prediction of how much the Iraq war cost (in $$$'s) ..$800 billion

Sparky
5th September 2010, 10:10 PM
So far in 2010, the U.S. Government has been spending $150 million every 22 minutes.

FunnyMoney
5th September 2010, 10:26 PM
So far in 2010, the U.S. Government has been spending $150 million every 22 minutes.


Sparky, I read on the other thread where you made a great case for the slow erosion of the currency over the more unlikely collapse of the USD. ( http://gold-silver.us/forum/the-worlds-financial-collapse/what-are-some-possible-scenario's-when-the-dollar-crashes/ ) History supports you in that case as the USD is still the primary world reserve currency.

However, things in the global finance of today can move at break-neck speeds. In light of your 22 minute comment above, do you really think they can hold off the next 95% devaluation and spread it out over many decades. How, or rather who's global wealth is going to support that kind of delay? The delay mechanisms of cheap energy, increasing technology and productivity are gone. The USA is no longer the biggest creditor and far-advanced exporter / industrialized nation as before. The world is no longer willing to absorb and adopt the USD as they did before, nor do they have enough raw disposable wealth to do so at this 22 min pace.

This comment of yours seems to go against your very slow USD deterioration theory.

Sparky
5th September 2010, 11:10 PM
Yes, they spend $150M very quickly, but it's a tiny amount; only 1/1000 of 1% of the M3 money supply. I'll stick by my math, which says that there are a ton of unfunded obligations, but they can be monetized over an extended period of moderate to high inflation.

Joe King
5th September 2010, 11:30 PM
If there's high inflation, that next 95% of value will be eaten up in no time, as it only represents about 3cents.
Even in times of low inflation, that much has gotten eaten up in only a few years time.
On average, we've been losing about a penny a year.

Now that they're pushing monetary inflation as never before, I have a hard time seeing that 3cents of lose being spread over several decades.
Unless of course we have low to no inflation over the next few decades. Or even an extended bout of deflation for a good long while to add some value back to it.
Either of which would work for me, but not so much for the central bankers.

StreetsOfGold
6th September 2010, 11:13 AM
This would be a handy time to introduce embedded RFID in all coinage.


Or better yet implant the RFID chip in our skin and do away with all cash.




What just a second there...... oh N/M (Revelation 13:16) :oo-->