WWJD

[aybesee123]

http://i.imgur.com/hNGFe.jpg

[Serpo]

They would crucify you today if you did that.....whooops

[Twisted Titan]

http://www.cyberclass.net/globalusury.gif

[Ponce]

You do that and "they" would have others go after you.......with Jesus "they" sentenced him to death and then mandated the Romans to do the dirty work.........Pilato only did as instructed by "them".

[Saul Mine]

Get is straight, mush mouth:

John 2:
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

He used the whip to drive out the sheep and oxen, he overturned the tables, and he SPOKE to the money changers. He didn't beat any people.

[StackerKen]

Get is straight, mush mouth:

John 2:
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

He used the whip to drive out the sheep and oxen, he overturned the tables, and he SPOKE to the money changers. He didn't beat any people.


Thank you Saul...I have had this same argument/discussion here in the past...
No where does the bible say Jesus struck anyone...... ever.
Some like to think he did.

[7th trump]

Get is straight, mush mouth:

John 2:
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

He used the whip to drive out the sheep and oxen, he overturned the tables, and he SPOKE to the money changers. He didn't beat any people.

Well Saul (and you Ken) take it for what the Bible says.
It says Jesus made a scrouge and drove them all out. And then the animals, the sheep, and the oxen second. (do you understand that theres a comma in between "sheep, and the oxen?) The comma is for a grammarical purpose to tell you a list of events that took place in cronological order.
He used the whip to drive them all out. He drove ou the money changers along with the sheep and oxen by using a whip!
Then he after driving them all out he poured out the money (as in the money changers couldnt run fast enough and left their money sitting there in the temple).
No Saul you lie!
Jesus only spoke to those who sold the doves (not all the money changers as you lie about it)......................why do you inject lies? I suppose you beleive Eve ate an apple as well when no such thing like eating an apple ever happened in the garden.

[7th trump]

Think about it for one cotton picken minute.
Jesus can make it rain fish with a snap of his fingers so what makes you think he'd use a whip on an innocent animal to move them out of the temple?
Jesus walked through walls and dissappeared before his enemy and reappeared a distance away. These money changers couldnt get away fast enough and left the money sitting on the tables.
What pissed off Jesus enough to make a whip?
1. The presents of innocent animals in the temple.
2. Or the money changing going on that mocked the father?

Think about it....................seriously!

[StackerKen]

7th I think we have already had this discussion. But I don't mind discussing it again

When a person cracks a whip the person doesn't have to make contact with the whip in order for the animal to move. I know if someone was cracking a whip in my face I would move.

Are you also accusing me of Lying?


As a matter of Fact... not only does John 2:15 not say Jesus whipped the money changers

It may not even be saying he drove out the money changers.

It appears to have been their sheep and Oxen that Jesus drove out.

Read it again...and then Pray about it.

New International Version (©1984)

So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Jesus made a whip from some ropes and chased them all out of the Temple. He drove out the sheep and cattle, scattered the money changers' coins over the floor, and turned over their tables.

English Standard Version (©2001)
And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables;

International Standard Version (©2008)
After making a whip out of cords, he drove all of them out of the temple, including the sheep and the cattle. He scattered the coins of the moneychangers and knocked over their tables.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
He made a whip from small ropes and threw everyone with their sheep and cattle out of the temple courtyard. He dumped the moneychangers' coins and knocked over their tables.

King James Bible
And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

American King James Version
And when he had made a whip of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

American Standard Version
and he made a scourge of cords, and cast all out of the temple, both the sheep and the oxen; and he poured out the changers money, and overthrew their tables;

Bible in Basic English
And he made a whip of small cords and put them all out of the Temple, with the sheep and the oxen, sending in all directions the small money of the changers and overturning their tables;

Douay-Rheims Bible
And when he had made, as it were, a scourge of little cords, he drove them all out of the temple, the sheep also and the oxen, and the money of the changers he poured out, and the tables he overthrew.

Darby Bible Translation
and, having made a scourge of cords, he cast them all out of the temple, both the sheep and the oxen; and he poured out the change of the money-changers, and overturned the tables,

English Revised Version
and he made a scourge of cords, and cast all out of the temple, both the sheep and the oxen; and he poured out the changers' money, and overthrew their tables;

Webster's Bible Translation
And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

Weymouth New Testament
So He plaited a whip of rushes, and drove all--both sheep and bullocks--out of the Temple. The small coin of the brokers He upset on the ground and overturned their tables.

World English Bible
He made a whip of cords, and threw all out of the temple, both the sheep and the oxen; and he poured out the changers' money, and overthrew their tables.

Young's Literal Translation
and having made a whip of small cords, he put all forth out of the temple, also the sheep, and the oxen; and of the money-changers he poured out the coins, and the tables he overthrew,

[7th trump]

7th I think we have already had this discussion. But I don't mind discussing it again

When a person cracks a whip the person doesn't have to make contact with the whip in order for the animal to move. I know if someone was cracking a whip in my face I would move.

Are you also accusing me of Lying?


As a matter of Fact... not only does John 2:15 not say Jesus whipped the money changers

It may not even be saying he drove out the money changers.

It appears to have been their sheep and Oxen that Jesus drove out.

Read it again...and then Pray about it.

New International Version (©1984)

So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Jesus made a whip from some ropes and chased them all out of the Temple. He drove out the sheep and cattle, scattered the money changers' coins over the floor, and turned over their tables.

English Standard Version (©2001)
And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables;

International Standard Version (©2008)
After making a whip out of cords, he drove all of them out of the temple, including the sheep and the cattle. He scattered the coins of the moneychangers and knocked over their tables.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
He made a whip from small ropes and threw everyone with their sheep and cattle out of the temple courtyard. He dumped the moneychangers' coins and knocked over their tables.

King James Bible
And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

American King James Version
And when he had made a whip of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

American Standard Version
and he made a scourge of cords, and cast all out of the temple, both the sheep and the oxen; and he poured out the changers money, and overthrew their tables;

Bible in Basic English
And he made a whip of small cords and put them all out of the Temple, with the sheep and the oxen, sending in all directions the small money of the changers and overturning their tables;

Douay-Rheims Bible
And when he had made, as it were, a scourge of little cords, he drove them all out of the temple, the sheep also and the oxen, and the money of the changers he poured out, and the tables he overthrew.

Darby Bible Translation
and, having made a scourge of cords, he cast them all out of the temple, both the sheep and the oxen; and he poured out the change of the money-changers, and overturned the tables,

English Revised Version
and he made a scourge of cords, and cast all out of the temple, both the sheep and the oxen; and he poured out the changers' money, and overthrew their tables;

Webster's Bible Translation
And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

Weymouth New Testament
So He plaited a whip of rushes, and drove all--both sheep and bullocks--out of the Temple. The small coin of the brokers He upset on the ground and overturned their tables.

World English Bible
He made a whip of cords, and threw all out of the temple, both the sheep and the oxen; and he poured out the changers' money, and overthrew their tables.

Young's Literal Translation
and having made a whip of small cords, he put all forth out of the temple, also the sheep, and the oxen; and of the money-changers he poured out the coins, and the tables he overthrew,


Why would I need to prey about it? I can read and comprehend just fine.
Look Ken, it says Jesus drove them all out " comma" and then the sheep "comma" and then the oxen.

Whats so hard about this?

And do you really think Jesus would whip an innocent animal? He could just tell the oxen to move.
That would be like whistling over your pet dog just to punch the dog in the nose.

[StackerKen]

right...all the sheep and all the oxen...

where does it say he hit any of the money changers with the whip?

[StackerKen]

Why would I need to prey about it? I can read and comprehend just fine.



Maybe Because its a good idea to pray to God for understanding and for his Guidance?

[iOWNme]

Well according to the Bible thumpers that come to my house, Jesus would have just paid his taxes, praised the Establishment, and been a good little boy.



:sarc:


"Render unto Ceasar...."

LOL Thats my favorite one they use......

[StackerKen]

And do you really think Jesus would whip an innocent animal? He could just tell the oxen to move.
That would be like whistling over your pet dog just to punch the dog in the nose.


I never said he whipped the animals....and the bible doesn't say he did either

[StackerKen]

Well according to the Bible thumpers that come to my house, Jesus would have just paid his taxes,


Why Not?...its only money...

[StackerKen]

I have another point i would like to make 7th. Did you read the very next verse?

If Jesus drove out all folks selling in the temple, that didn't include the ones selling doves?

apparently not

John 2 :16

New International Version (©1984)
To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!"

New Living Translation (©2007)
Then, going over to the people who sold doves, he told them, "Get these things out of here. Stop turning my Father's house into a marketplace!"

English Standard Version (©2001)
And he told those who sold the pigeons, “Take these things away; do not make my Father’s house a house of trade.”

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Father's house a place of business."

International Standard Version (©2008)
Then he told those who were selling the doves, "Take these things out of here! Stop making my Father's house a marketplace!"

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
He told those who sold pigeons, "Pick up this stuff, and get it out of here! Stop making my Father's house a marketplace!"

King James Bible
And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

[zap]

The bible was written 300 years after Jesus died. I can't believe any of the books.


After solidifying his position to gain complete control of the western portion of the empire in 312, the Emperor Constantine instituted the Edict of Milan, a "Magna Carta of religious liberty," which eventually changed the Empire’s religion and put Christianity on an equal footing with paganism. Almost overnight the position of the Christian Church was reversed from persecuted to legal and accepted. Constantine began to rely on the church for support, and it on him for protection. The Church and the Empire formed an alliance, which remains to this day. Very rapidly, the laws and policies of the Empire and the doctrine of the Church became one with Constantine as the interpreter of both law and policy. This was accomplished by eliminating hundreds of books thought to be against "Church" doctrine and watering down what remained by blending Christian beliefs and practice with long established Roman sanctioned pagan worship.
Constantine believed that the Church and the State should be as close as possible. Constantine tolerated pagan practices, keeping pagan gods on coins and retaining his pagan high priest title "Pontifex Maximus" in order to maintain popularity with his former subjects.

*****In 330 he began an assault on paganism but used a clever method of persuasion to force people to follow the laws by combining pagan worship with Christianity. He made December 25th, the birthday of the pagan Unconquered Sun god, the official holiday now celebrated as the birthday of Jesus.*****


http://www.bibleufo.com/anomlostbooks.htm

[StackerKen]

Zap I don't think that is true at all. Do you trust your source of that info?

From Wikipedia

The New Testament is an anthology, a collection of works written at different times by various authors. In almost all Christian traditions today, the New Testament consists of 27 books. The original texts were written beginning around A.D. 50


another source says

WHEN was the
New Testament Written? *
Print Page


Date
(A.D.)

New Testament Book/ Author


35A.D.
Matthew Matthew
40 to 41A.D.
James James
42A.D.
Mark Mark
John ** John
50A.D.
1Thessalonians Apostle Paul
51A.D.
2Thessalonians Apostle Paul
53A.D.
(Spring)
Galatians Apostle Paul
56A.D.
(Late Winter)
1Corinthians Apostle Paul
57A.D.
(Late Summer)
2Corinthians Apostle Paul
57A.D.
(Winter)
Romans Apostle Paul
59A.D.
Luke Luke
61 to 63A.D.
Ephesians Apostle Paul
Philippians Apostle Paul
Colossians Apostle Paul
Philemon Apostle Paul
Hebrews Apostle Paul
63A.D.
Acts Luke
1Timothy Apostle Paul
Titus Apostle Paul
63 to 64A.D.
1John
2John
3John John
64 to 65A.D.
1Peter Peter
65 to 66A.D.
2Peter Peter
66 to 67A.D.
Jude Jude
67A.D.
2Timothy Apostle Paul
95A.D.
Revelation John

and another say's


Though some say that the New Testament was written 100-300 years after Christ died, the truth is that it was written before the close of the first century by those who either knew Christ personally, had encountered him, or were under the direction of those who were His disciples.

In the article When were the gospels written and by whom?, I demonstrated that Matthew, Mark, and Luke were all written before 70 A.D. Basically, the book of Acts was written by Luke. But Luke fails to mention the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., nor does he mention the deaths of James (A.D. 62), Paul (A.D. 64), and Peter (A.D. 65). Since Acts is a historical document dealing with the church, we would naturally expect such important events to be recorded if Acts was written after the fact. Since Acts 1:1-2 mentions that it is the second writing of Luke, the gospel of Luke was written even earlier. Also, Jesus prophesied the destruction of the temple in the gospels: "As for these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down," (Luke 21:6, see also Matt. 24:2; Mark 13:2). Undoubtedly, if Matthew, Mark, and Luke were written after the destruction of the Temple, they would have included the fulfillment of Christ's prophecy in them. Since they don't, it is very strong indication that they were written before 70 A.D.

[zap]

Ken I don't know what the truth is I question everything, I don't know if I believe that all these folks had pencil and paper at their disposal, way back it was an oral history, people just telling stories, until somebody wrote them down. I don't know what the truth is. :oo-->


Quote from Ken;
Though some say that the New Testament was written 100-300 years after Christ died, the truth is that it was written before the close of the first century by those who either knew Christ personally, had encountered him, or were under the direction of those who were His disciples.

[Joe King]

Get is straight, mush mouth:

John 2:
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

He used the whip to drive out the sheep and oxen, he overturned the tables, and he SPOKE to the money changers. He didn't beat any people.
Seems to me that we could do the same thing today by simply not using them or their services.
i.e. make them irrelevant.

They can only do what they do if they have our participation.

Of course that would require people to actually have a bit of principle, relative to the subject at least.

[zap]

Ken do a search on Constantine and the bible, might give you something to think about.

[Tumbleweed]

I've spent all my life driving cattle, horses and ocasionaly some sheep. You can pop your whip but that doesn't mean they're going to move. If they don't move you aply the whip and they will move. I've been accidently hit by whips and have seen others hit and we all moved so we wouldn't get hit again. The way I read it the livestock and money changers both were driven out of the temple by Jesus and his whip whether they were hit or not. They either moved or the whip was going to be aplied.

[Fortyone]

The bible was written 300 years after Jesus died. I can't believe any of the books.


After solidifying his position to gain complete control of the western portion of the empire in 312, the Emperor Constantine instituted the Edict of Milan, a "Magna Carta of religious liberty," which eventually changed the Empire’s religion and put Christianity on an equal footing with paganism. Almost overnight the position of the Christian Church was reversed from persecuted to legal and accepted. Constantine began to rely on the church for support, and it on him for protection. The Church and the Empire formed an alliance, which remains to this day. Very rapidly, the laws and policies of the Empire and the doctrine of the Church became one with Constantine as the interpreter of both law and policy. This was accomplished by eliminating hundreds of books thought to be against "Church" doctrine and watering down what remained by blending Christian beliefs and practice with long established Roman sanctioned pagan worship.
Constantine believed that the Church and the State should be as close as possible. Constantine tolerated pagan practices, keeping pagan gods on coins and retaining his pagan high priest title "Pontifex Maximus" in order to maintain popularity with his former subjects.

*****In 330 he began an assault on paganism but used a clever method of persuasion to force people to follow the laws by combining pagan worship with Christianity. He made December 25th, the birthday of the pagan Unconquered Sun god, the official holiday now celebrated as the birthday of Jesus.*****


http://www.bibleufo.com/anomlostbooks.htm



No it wasnt, it was COMPILED. The apostles and wrote many of the books shortly after the death of Christ. It was put together as one unit later.People that wish to be atheists and promote atheism should at least get their facts straight.

[Tumbleweed]

I have another point i would like to make 7th. Did you read the very next verse?

If Jesus drove out all folks selling in the temple, that didn't include the ones selling doves?

apparently not

John 2 :16

New International Version (©1984)
To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!"





You're not going to drive birds in a cage anywhere with a whip that's why he just told them to get out.

[iOWNme]

Well according to the Bible thumpers that come to my house, Jesus would have just paid his taxes,


Why Not?...its only money...


Jesus paid his tithe to the Leviticus Priests, NOT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT (Cesar...) He warned of unjust weights and measures, and told those who hold a coin with the image of Cesar to render it back to the original owner.

Who owns a Federal Reserve Note?

[7th trump]

I've spent all my life driving cattle, horses and ocasionaly some sheep. You can pop your whip but that doesn't mean they're going to move. If they don't move you aply the whip and they will move. I've been accidently hit by whips and have seen others hit and we all moved so we wouldn't get hit again. The way I read it the livestock and money changers both were driven out of the temple by Jesus and his whip whether they were hit or not. They either moved or the whip was going to be aplied.

Exactly Tumbleweed.
Jesus drove all the money changers out, and then the sheep, and then the oxen.
First and foremeost Jesus drove out the money changers with the sheep and oxen afterwards.

Why some people cannot comprehend what they read and resort to injecting lies into the scripture is beyond me. Especially when it comes to adding and subtracting Gods Word.

[JohnQPublic]

Well according to the Bible thumpers that come to my house, Jesus would have just paid his taxes, praised the Establishment, and been a good little boy.



:sarc:


"Render unto Ceasar...."

LOL Thats my favorite one they use......


Caesarus Obamus

[JohnQPublic]

Get is straight, mush mouth:

John 2:
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

He used the whip to drive out the sheep and oxen, he overturned the tables, and he SPOKE to the money changers. He didn't beat any people.


The important point is that he took action against the "banks".

[Joe King]

In this Nation you are as Caesar.

[7th trump]

Well according to the Bible thumpers that come to my house, Jesus would have just paid his taxes,


Why Not?...its only money...


Jesus paid his tithe to the Leviticus Priests, NOT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT (Cesar...) He warned of unjust weights and measures, and told those who hold a coin with the image of Cesar to render it back to the original owner.

Who owns a Federal Reserve Note?

Where does it say Christ paid tithes?
I know Jesus came here as an example for us, so I beleive he did pay a tithe just as its written for us to tithe.

[7th trump]

In this Nation you are as Caesar.

You are not Caesar if you are a US citizen or anything that falls under being under the jurisdiction thereof.
See the 14th amendment, first paragraph!
Have a ssn? Then you are a slave to the federal plantation.

[Joe King]

In this Nation you are as Caesar.

You are not Caesar if you are a US citizen or anything that falls under being under the jurisdiction thereof.
See the 14th amendment, first paragraph!
Have a ssn? Then you are a slave to the federal plantation.
Ok. In this Nation you are supposed to be as Caesar.

Choice is yours.

Better?

[DMac]

Big difference between scourge and whip. A scourge is a much more painful weapon.

A whip is what Indiana Jones used:
http://www.smithworksforge.com/leatherItems/images/1bullWhip.jpg

A scourge is something slave drivers use (and is much more mean and painful!)

http://www.biblepicturegallery.com/samples/la/world/armies/roman/Roman%20Flagellum%20or%20scourge%20-%20cf%20Mt2726%20Mk1515.gif

Jesus whipped (using a scourge) the moneychangers and the animals out of the temple. It is very clearly stated.

[StackerKen]

My main point(agreeing with Saul) was that the bible does not say (anywhere) Jesus struck anyone.


Posted by: 7th trump

Why some people cannot comprehend what they read and resort to injecting lies into the scripture is beyond me. Especially when it comes to adding and subtracting Gods Word.



7th; I suggest you worry about keeping yourself from doing these things.

[StackerKen]

Jesus whipped (using a scourge) the moneychangers and the animals out of the temple. It is very clearly stated.



DMac ??? very clearly stated? "Jesus 'whipped' the money changers"?

Show me where it says that

[StackerKen]

Get is straight, mush mouth:

He used the whip to drive out the sheep and oxen, he overturned the tables, and he SPOKE to the money changers. He didn't beat any people.



Care to back that up Saul?

Help me out a bit here?

[7th trump]

My main point(agreeing with Saul) was that the bible does not say (anywhere) Jesus struck anyone.


Posted by: 7th trump

Why some people cannot comprehend what they read and resort to injecting lies into the scripture is beyond me. Especially when it comes to adding and subtracting Gods Word.



7th; I suggest you worry about keeping yourself from doing these things.

Just what do you think making a scrouge and driving them all out means? What is there not to comprehend?
Especially saying after driving the money changers out it then says he drove out the sheep, and then the oxen.
The object here is the money changers not the sheep or oxen. The sheep and oxen are after Jesus used a scrouge to drive out all the money changers.
The money changers couldnt exit the temple fast enough and left the money on the tables which were left behind in the temple.
Christ with the scrouge wasnt beating around the bush with these money changers. Christ was pissed at the money changers, not the animals. The animals were innocent

[DMac]

Reads pretty clear to me:


"And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all
them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the
tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold
doves, And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be
called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of
thieves."
Matthew 21:12-13, KJV

"And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to
Jerusalem, And found in the temple those that sold oxen and
sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: And when
he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out
of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out
the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto
them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my
Father's house an house of merchandise."
John 2:13-16, KJV

"And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple,
and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the
temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and
the seats of them that sold doves; And would not suffer that
any man should carry any vessel through the temple. And he
taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall
be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have
made it a den of thieves."
Mark 11:15-17, KJV

[StackerKen]

I have read that Dmac...thanks...

It says Jesus Drove them out or Cast them out

Not "Whipped" them...and Not "Struck" them with the scourge





Jesus whipped (using a scourge) the moneychangers and the animals out of the temple. It is very clearly stated.

[StackerKen]

I have a Goat that gets out sometimes...I don't have to hit the goat with anything to get it to go back...All I have to do is yell at it. Sometimes I will swing a stick...it hears it...and runs...

[aybesee123]

Get is straight, mush mouth:

John 2:
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

He used the whip to drive out the sheep and oxen, he overturned the tables, and he SPOKE to the money changers. He didn't beat any people.


Did you ride the short bus mush brain? If not you should brush up on your reading comprehension skills so you don't publicly embarrass yourself.

[DMac]

Having spent many days in the sun casting a fishing line I know casting does not mean to ask nicely. It is a physical activity. Driving out (ALL) animals and people engaging in commerce with a scourge in hand sounds like a whippin took place where I'm sitting.

Jesus was pissed and rightly so.

[StackerKen]

Well I guess if you want to "read something in" that is not there...you can.

I guess how a persons "see's it" it depends on their mindset.

Like I said...I can get my goat...(and my horse) to Move...without actually hitting them

[DMac]

Mental gymnastics. You cannot drive people and animals out of a building (overturning tables all the while) without a semblance of violence.

Jesus wasn't shooing a goat out of his backyard. He cast out, drove out people and animals with a scourge in his hand.

I think 7th Trump is spot on here,




My main point(agreeing with Saul) was that the bible does not say (anywhere) Jesus struck anyone.


Posted by: 7th trump

Why some people cannot comprehend what they read and resort to injecting lies into the scripture is beyond me. Especially when it comes to adding and subtracting Gods Word.



7th; I suggest you worry about keeping yourself from doing these things.

Just what do you think making a scrouge and driving them all out means? What is there not to comprehend?
Especially saying after driving the money changers out it then says he drove out the sheep, and then the oxen.
The object here is the money changers not the sheep or oxen. The sheep and oxen are after Jesus used a scrouge to drive out all the money changers.
The money changers couldnt exit the temple fast enough and left the money on the tables which were left behind in the temple.
Christ with the scrouge wasnt beating around the bush with these money changers. Christ was pissed at the money changers, not the animals. The animals were innocent

[Spectrism]

Its an interesting concept to think that Yahshuah never hit anyone. It seems rather evident that he did not strike out in self-defence. But let's take another look at this situation.

He is riding into Jerusalem on the Passover and is being praised by the people.

He comes to the temple and sees the money changers- those who worked in the temple stealing money from the jews in exchange for acceptable sin offerings, as the Roman coin was filth in the temple. The leaders of the temple were to guide the sheep, not fleece them.

What did He call the temple leaders on other occasions?

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.


Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat 23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
Mat 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
Mat 23:18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
Mat 23:19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
Mat 23:20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
Mat 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
Mat 23:22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.


I would say that Yahshuah was set against those who would cause others to stumble. I could see Him fighting with one who would harm a child. The image of a soft Jesus who had no backbone is a spirit of this soft generation turning men into women. The Messiah was power in restraint. But when He entered His Father's house, He drove the money changers out.

He made a whip of small cords... and notice the onject of that action:


Joh 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
Joh 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;


The correlation of "them" in verse 15 is "those" in verse 14.... those that sold, and the "changers of money".

The whip was made to drvie them out. Did He hit them? I sure would think so if they did not scurry fast enough. He did not walk in calmly and ask them to leave. He went in with a fury.

Very soon- we will see Him return with a fury like a bright light against darkness.

[StackerKen]

Its an interesting concept to think that Yahshuah never hit anyone. It seems rather evident that he did not strike out in self-defence.

The concept comes from the fact the bible NEVER mentions Jesus Hitting anyone. Offence or defense.

[DMac]

I think you are on target here Spectrism:

I would say that Yahshuah was set against those who would cause others to stumble. I could see Him fighting with one who would harm a child. The image of a soft Jesus who had no backbone is a spirit of this soft generation turning men into women. The Messiah was power in restraint. But when He entered His Father's house, He drove the money changers out.

I wouldn't doubt for a second the current corruptors of men were the same people being driven out of the temple.

[StackerKen]

I don't see from reading the bible that anyone could think Jesus had no backbone.

He told the scribes and Pharisees how it was...
He was angry and drove the moneychangers out of his fathers house.


None of you can show me where the bible say's that Jesus hit anyone.....Jesus didn't need to hit anyone.
:)


Then said Jesus unto him,
Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

[Spectrism]

Its an interesting concept to think that Yahshuah never hit anyone. It seems rather evident that he did not strike out in self-defence.

The concept comes from the fact the the bible NEVER mentions Jesus Hitting anyone. Offence or defense.




The bible never says that He used an outhouse either. It never mentions that His father taught Him carpentry. Some things are taken by context.



Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Joh 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Joh 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.


There was a particular mission to be accomplished during His time.

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

It was to make a way for those who would believe to enter the kingdom of God.

He did not come to rip out the weeds so that the crops could grow.

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


The time of separating wheat from chaff will soon be here. Until then, the powers of this world have their influence. We are not Jesus. We are to be His body corporately. Individually we are in shells that are corruptible. Are we bound to bow our heads when one does evil? No! We may exercise righteous indignance when wickedness seeks to rule over us or those being unwillingly oppressed.

[Spectrism]

I don't see from reading the bible that anyone could think Jesus had no backbone.

Jesus, no backbone? That was my point. Today I see many portray Him as a wet noodle more likely to wear a feather boa than leather belt.




He told the scribes and Pharisees how it was...
He was angry and drove the moneychangers out of his fathers house.


And how did He do that? Did He tell them that they must go or He would hold His breath? Maybe He stomped His feet? Perhaps He threatened to tell their mommies?




None of you can show me where the bible say's that Jesus hit anyone.....Jesus didn't need to hit anyone.
:)

It was not His mission to attack people. He knew the judgment would come. A sacrificial Lamb does not hit those who are invited to feed on it.




Then said Jesus unto him,
Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

He said this top Peter in Gethsemane. Did He not know that Peter carried a weapon that night? To fight the temple guards would interfere with the mission. Yahshuah had to be sacrificed. Let's look at the words in another light.... those who spare the sacrifice of Messiah by their own works will perish with their own works. Also, consider that the mission of the disciples was to be spies in an enemy kingdom fighting behind enemy lines. A small guerilla force must not engage the enemy in open, conventional warfare. They needed to wait and be led by the Spirit.

[StackerKen]

Jesus, no backbone? That was my point. Today I see many portray Him as a wet noodle more likely to wear a feather boa than leather belt.

Do you see me doing this here?


He told the scribes and Pharisees how it was...
He was angry and drove the moneychangers out of his fathers house.



And how did He do that? Did He tell them that they must go or He would hold His breath? Maybe He stomped His feet? Perhaps He threatened to tell their mommies?

He did the way the bible says he did it.



None of you can show me where the bible say's that Jesus hit anyone.....Jesus didn't need to hit anyone.
:)



It was not His mission to attack people. He knew the judgment would come. A sacrificial Lamb does not hit those who are invited to feed on it.

Exactly My Point Here

[7th trump]

Jesus wasnt attacking when he drove out the changers.
A fine line to most, but big difference Ken!

[Saul Mine]

Get is straight, mush mouth:

He used the whip to drive out the sheep and oxen, he overturned the tables, and he SPOKE to the money changers. He didn't beat any people.



Care to back that up Saul?

Help me out a bit here?


Anybody can open a bible and read what it says, except that some people only look at the pages and recite what they prefer to believe. I have quoted the bible. It's not my responsibility to defend it. Anybody who doesn't like it can complain to the author.

[aybesee123]

Anybody can open a bible and read what it says, except that some people only look at the pages and recite what they prefer to believe.


This description seems to fit you to a T.

[Neuro]

"Them all" seems to be referring to the people doing business in the temple, and then he drove out the sheep and the oxen.

He went through the trouble of making a whip, why would he if he could drive them out without it? Probably he couldn't... He may not have hit anyone with the whip, but he used it to drive the money changers out...And he proceeded to destroy their business, by turning over their tables...

And for that he was crucified! And the Jews used the Romans for it. Just like they use the American empire today.

If history doesn't repeat itself, it sure does rhyme...

[Spectrism]

"Them all" seems to be referring to the people doing business in the temple, and then he drove out the sheep and the oxen.

He went through the trouble of making a whip, why would he if he could drive them out without it? Probably he couldn't... He may not have hit anyone with the whip, but he used it to drive the money changers out...And he proceeded to destroy their business, by turning over their tables...

And for that he was crucified! And the Jews used the Romans for it. Just like they use the American empire today.

If history doesn't repeat itself, it sure does rhyme...



The parallel is sadly too close to truth. We have a worthless senate and we have a Caesar with mini-czars.

[Phoenix]

right...all the sheep and all the oxen...

where does it say he hit any of the money changers with the whip?


Where does it say he HIT the sheep and oxen? It doesn't. Yet you assumed He did...because it's a logical assumption. Just as it is a logical assumption that He HIT the wicked moneychangers with the scourge.

How exactly did Jesus, hated by the Jews as He was, "drive" the Talmudic moneychangers out of the temple with the scourge of cords? By saying "OK, everyone, I'm not gonna hurt you, please get up and leave"? Why did He need a WEAPON? I imagine they laughed at Him...until "crack" across the face or arms.

Jesus Christ was NOT a metrosexual pansy as modern "Christians" like to envision Him. The One who will lay waste to Earth and cast billions of souls into the Lake of Fire is not a pacifist. He loves peace, but wages war against those who insist upon it.

To believe that Jesus Christ did not hit the satanic moneychangers is a very delusional denial.

[StackerKen]

Where does it say he HIT the sheep and oxen? It doesn't. Yet you assumed He did...



No...I did not assume that.



I imagine they laughed at Him...until "crack" across the face or arms.

And you can use your Imagination...if you want to..... I'll go by what the text says


To believe that Jesus Christ did not hit the satanic moneychangers is a very delusional denial.

very delusional denial?

Originally I came to this conclusion on my own just by reading the text and Praying for wisdom and understanding.

Since then, I did some investigating.....
Many Bible commentators including, Barnes, Henry, Vine & Wesley say He did not strike the men

[Tumbleweed]

Ken when I drive cattle somewhere and I'm telling about it later I say I drove them, not that I whipped them. Some of them may very well have been whipped to get them to move but no one specificaly says that when they say they drove cattle somewhere.

[StackerKen]

Tumbleweed; But do the cattle always need to be whipped to be driven?
Some will move with just the threat of being whipped?

I Know I would move if someone was swinging a whip at my butt. Would you?

[Tumbleweed]

No Ken not all cattle need to be whipped to move. Sometimes once is plenty and they have learned to avoid being whipped to move. The way they learn is just like we do. I've been hit with a whip and it only took once to learn the lesson. If I'd have been there helping Jesus drive those Jews out I'd have whipped the hell out of all them I could have got close to.

[TheNocturnalEgyptian]

To scatter coins, and overturn tables, doesn't it imply the use of physical force? If I had a bunch of silver on a table, I think someone would have to go through me. They wouldn't be able to just walk up to it and take it while I watched. Makes no sense. Either the money changers had already left the temple, and left their silver coins behind, or Jesus went through them physically. At least, that is the way it reads to me. I admit it's a bit unclear.

[iOWNme]

Well according to the Bible thumpers that come to my house, Jesus would have just paid his taxes,


Why Not?...its only money...


Jesus paid his tithe to the Leviticus Priests, NOT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT (Cesar...) He warned of unjust weights and measures, and told those who hold a coin with the image of Cesar to render it back to the original owner.

Who owns a Federal Reserve Note?

Where does it say Christ paid tithes?
I know Jesus came here as an example for us, so I beleive he did pay a tithe just as its written for us to tithe.


The tithe is a tax on property, not money. The tenth sheep will be given......etc. The 10% was to fund the government, hence keeping the government very very very very very very very small. :)

A ton of information here: George Gordon

Tax Protesting in the scriptures - 1 (http://library.georgegordon.com/audio/download/118/0036a-32.mp3)
Tax Protesting in the scriptures - 2 (http://library.georgegordon.com/audio/download/119/0036b-32.mp3)
Tax Protesting in the scriptures - 3 (http://library.georgegordon.com/audio/download/119/0036c-32.mp3)

[Phoenix]

very delusional denial?

Originally I came to this conclusion on my own just by reading the text and Praying for wisdom and understanding.

Since then, I did some investigating.....
Many Bible commentators including, Barnes, Henry, Vine & Wesley say He did not strike the men


My confidence in your naiveté is starting to wear thin, Ken. I'm starting to suspect you really aren't as stupid as you pretend to be. Saul Mine's user name is a dead giveaway of his intentions (Saul = Jewish persecutor of Christians, including by lying about their sacred text). But you, I have thought, to now, that you're merely innocent, maybe even a bit dimwitted. But then I've noticed you are sharp as a razor when you need to be, and "dim" only when you "seem to be" trying to confuse people with possibly disingenuous "contrarian" stances.

You know damn well that Christ made a WEAPON and that He used it for the USUAL PURPOSE. You KNOW that He used it against humans. Don't act dumb, "oh, golly gee, the text doesn't say that, nyuk, nyuk, nyuk." CONTEXT, my friend, CONTEXT.

[Phoenix]

BTW, where does the Bible state that Romans hammered nails into Christ's hands/wrists? It doesn't. So I guess it didn't happen.

::)

[StackerKen]

Phoenix; I don't play games...I don't play dumb. Really I don't.

Thanks for saying I seem "sharp as a razor" sometimes though...that made me smile :)

I think we can agree to disagree on this passage....it's not an essential doctrine or anything like that.

It was a good discussion though.

Peace brother!

[StackerKen]

BTW, where does the Bible state that Romans hammered nails into Christ's hands/wrists? It doesn't. So I guess it didn't happen.

::)


Some say he still had the nail marks after he rose

Luke 24:39
Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

John 20:20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord.

John 20:27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."

[ximmy]

also

"This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross." (acts 2:23)

So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." (john 20:25)

[Neuro]

I would interpret it like that Ken, but it doesn't say it anymore, than it says that JC whipped people out of the temple, which is also my interpretation...

[Phoenix]

BTW, where does the Bible state that Romans hammered nails into Christ's hands/wrists? It doesn't. So I guess it didn't happen.

::)


Some say he still had the nail marks after he rose

Luke 24:39
Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

John 20:20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord.

John 20:27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."



Maybe He was born with the nails in His hands? Or He fell on them and they pierced His hands? It doesn't say the Romans drove the nails into Him. ::)

[StackerKen]

BTW, where does the Bible state that Romans hammered nails into Christ's hands/wrists? It doesn't. So I guess it didn't happen.

::)


Some say he still had the nail marks after he rose

Luke 24:39
Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

John 20:20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord.

John 20:27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."



Maybe He was born with the nails in His hands? Or He fell on them and they pierced His hands? It doesn't say the Romans drove the nails into Him. ::)


Really? you think he was born with nail holes in his hands?

i see what your doing ;)

Not even close to the same Phoneix.....

Lets just drop it shall we?

[Phoenix]

BTW, where does the Bible state that Romans hammered nails into Christ's hands/wrists? It doesn't. So I guess it didn't happen.

::)


Some say he still had the nail marks after he rose

Luke 24:39
Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

John 20:20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord.

John 20:27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."



Maybe He was born with the nails in His hands? Or He fell on them and they pierced His hands? It doesn't say the Romans drove the nails into Him. ::)


Really? you think he was born with nail holes in his hands?

i see what your doing ;)

Not even close to the same Phoneix.....

Lets just drop it shall we?


Drop it? Why? ;D

I'm only applying the same illogical methodology to this issue as you did to Christ physically harming the moneychangers.

Like I said: sharp as a razor...when he wants to be...

[sirgonzo420]

Oh drop it Quantum; you don't like when folks mess with you!

;D

[StackerKen]

i see what your doing ;)

Not even close to the same Phoneix.....

Lets just drop it shall we?




Drop it? Why? ;D

I'm only applying the same illogical methodology to this issue as you did to Christ physically harming the moneychangers.

Like I said: sharp as a razor...when he wants to be...


Like I said "Not even close to the same"