Sovereign citizen scam ring busted

[wildcard]

I'm sure they'll explain it all in court, how it was legal and all. ::)

Please don't miss the vid at this link:

http://www.wsbtv.com/2investigates/24311535/detail.html

Another Stolen House Raided; 5 More Sovereign Citizens Sought

Posted: 2:34 pm EDT July 19, 2010Updated: 5:34 pm EDT September 1, 2010
DEKALB COUNTY, Ga -- A Channel 2 Action News investigation into a ring of thieves stealing houses is growing. So far, Channel 2 Action News investigative reporter Jodie Fleischer has uncovered at least 18 stolen properties in eight Georgia counties: DeKalb, Fulton, Gwinnett, Henry, Fayette, Newton, Spalding and Richmond. The properties include town homes, mansions, even an entire shopping center. The total value exceeds $22 million.

Prosecutors with the DeKalb County District Attorney’s office are building racketeering cases against nine suspects. Four are in jail. Officers are searching for the remaining five.

They are accused of conspiring to steal houses by signing fraudulent deeds to themselves, then moving into the properties. Authorities said they often use the deeds to get the locks changed and turn on utility service at the homes. They usually target homes advertised as foreclosures knowing they will likely be vacant, prosecutors said.

"At the end of the day, it's nothing but theft," said Assistant District Attorney John Melvin.

Channel 2 Action News was there this week as detectives raided a home in Belford Estates, a secluded subdivision in Southeastern Henry County. They hauled away boxes of paperwork, but the suspects were not there when police arrived. A Henry County police officer had responded to the same location a week earlier after getting a complaint from neighbors. The officer saw the fraudulent deed posted in the windows of the home and thought it was real. He told the neighbors the case would be a civil matter and then left.

“It's something that has been discussed is to familiarize all of our officers with these types of situations to let them know what to look for," said Henry County police Capt. Jason Bolton.

The suspects call themselves sovereign citizens. They are anti-government extremists who refuse to answer to state or local authority. The members often refuse to pay taxes or register their vehicles, authorities said. Some told Fleischer that their homes are considered sovereign land.

"Frankly, it's rather absurd the philosophies and techniques they're espousing, but people will buy into that and try it," said FBI Agent Steve Emmett.

Fleischer confronted Gregory and Linda Ross, who were living at a 5-bedroom home on South Goddard Road in DeKalb County. A deed posted in the window of the house claimed Jermaine Gibson owned the property. Records show the $1 million home is actually owned by a bank. Authorities say Gibson filed fraudulent paperwork to take the house around the same time the bank was forcing out the previous owners who were in foreclosure. According to the deed, Gibson signed over the property to himself for free. Gibson has also filed paperwork declaring himself a sovereign citizen and immune from the laws of Georgia.

DeKalb police said they caught him and Joseph Dion Lawler trying to get the locks changed on a $1 million home on Windsor Parkway. Police said Lawler’s name was on that fraudulent deed, and so was Gibson’s address on South Goddard Road. Police said the fraudulent deed for the Henry County home in Belford Estates was signed by Corey Bernard Freeman, but also included Gibson’s address on South Goddard.

continues at link.

Some of the wanted sovereign citizens:

http://www.wsbtv.com/slideshow/news/24369990/detail.html

[Cebu_4_2]

The PTB are scrambling with their propaganda media again.

[wildcard]

There sure are. They called this group of baboons a "right wing extremist" group.

[wildcard]

What's that palani? Oh, no comment, I got ya.

[palani]

What's that palani? Oh, no comment, I got ya.


Baiting, are we?

Ok. How about I bring up that you steal your PMs every time you think you are purchasing them? My IOU (or anyones) is as good as that FRN you use all the time and YOU CANNOT PURCHASE ANYTHING WITH AN IOU.

Are YOU a sovereign citizen?

Why do you believe old timey contracts were based upon one dollar and other valuable consideration OR one dollar love and affection (in the case of relatives)? The one dollar was silver or gold and THAT was sufficient consideration to make it a contract.

Nowadays you HAVE no consideration at your disposal and you HAVE no contracts (other than quasi-contracts, pseudo-contracts or FALSE contracts). YOU have no capacity to own anything and I suspect these poor fools occupying others property have as little capacity as you have. You live, breath, work and are OWNED by a COMMUNIST state.

And you have the GALL to aspire to any form of MORAL conclusion?

[wildcard]

Strawman! Are these guys in your sovereign citizen ring?

[palani]

Strawman! Are these guys in your sovereign citizen ring?


I suppose you INTENTIONALLY ignore my reference to them as "poor fools"?

To this group I now add YOU.

[wildcard]

The poor fools are the ones that get suckered into these stupid sovereign citizen scams. All your esoterica won't save you from a corrupt legal system.

[palani]

The poor fools are the ones that get suckered into these stupid sovereign citizen scams.
Were they adults?

All your esoterica won't save you from a corrupt legal system.
Why would I disagree with you on this point? You and I are in agreement EXCEPT that you constantly use this excuse to display the demeanor of a whipped dog.

[Glass]

There's those 2 words again wildcard "sovereign citizen". You cannot be sovereign and a citizen. If they were sovereign they would answer to the common law of their state. So either the article is wrong on that matter i.e. they were not claiming to be exempt from their states law or these guys are not sovereigns and are just using it as a cover to do crookery.

Based on what the article says they weren't sovereigns at all or completely misguided. I suggest the former. Creating a deed of title and claiming it was the true deed is just forgery plain and simple. Monetising a bond or some other commercial document or even lawful money and giving that as consideration for something would be a different situation.

You can be sovereign or citizen but not both. But you know that already.

[Phoenix]

Strawman! Are these guys in your sovereign citizen ring?


Palani is probably one of them, out on bail.

[Phoenix]

There's those 2 words again wildcard "sovereign citizen". You cannot be sovereign and a citizen.


You better add that to the list of many errors your friends in the often-self-titled "sovereign citizen" movement need to correct.

http://publius-sovereignty.blogspot.com/

http://remblogs.typepad.com/sovcit/2004/09/become_a_sovere.html

http://www.sovereign-citizenship.net/home.html

http://www.discharge-debt.com/id73.htm

Basically, according to Glass, everything about the "movement" is a fraud - even the name! ;D

[Phoenix]

There sure are. They called this group of baboons a "right wing extremist" group.


You have to be as dumb as a Niqqer to actually fall for the bullshit "sovereign citizens" claim you can use to avoid "laws," taxes, and bullets.

[Phoenix]

How about I bring up that you steal your PMs every time you think you are purchasing them?


Please just STFU with your cheap-ass, low-down false accusations!

Federal Reserve Notes are accepted for goods & services nearly everywhere. If someone accepts them, and provides you goods & services, it's not "stealing."

And you're an f-ing liar when you claim you "won't accept" Federal Reserves Notes. No one believes you when you claim you won't accept a $20 FRN and put it in your pocket. NO ONE.

[palani]

No one believes you when you claim you won't accept a $20 FRN and put it in your pocket. NO ONE.


Cypher: No! I don't believe it!
Tank: Believe it or not, you piece of shit, you're still gonna burn!

[Joe King]

How about I bring up that you steal your PMs every time you think you are purchasing them?


Please just STFU with your cheap-ass, low-down false accusations!

Federal Reserve Notes are accepted for goods & services nearly everywhere. If someone accepts them, and provides you goods & services, it's not "stealing."

And you're an f-ing liar when you claim you "won't accept" Federal Reserves Notes. No one believes you when you claim you won't accept a $20 FRN and put it in your pocket. NO ONE.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I just have to say that you're the last person on this forum that should be accusing anyone of being a f'ing liar.

Unless of course what you mean is that it takes one to know one.

[Glass]

Basically, according to Glass, everything about the "movement" is a fraud - even the name! ;D


Not the movement, the article. Get it right please. Do not make untrue claims about my statements. You guys keep deliberately using that combination of words to misdirect the discussion. States are countries joined in a federation. If you live in your state you can do so as sovereign. If you live in the federation under Washington DC "citizenship" then you are not sovereign.

Many of the court cases and a lot of legislative evidence of this situation has been presented on this forum before. Sovereignty puts someone in charge of their destiny and actions. You can still commit fraud in common law just as you can in statutory capacities (citizenship). Being in charge means no limitted liability for you. Full commercial responsibility applies. The world would be a different place if people had to take full responsibility for their actions instead of dumping the cost onto everyone else.

As I pointed out that simply creating a Deed does not effect any kind of contract or consideration. A Deed is a mercantile document, it is tradable. Fabricating a tradable document is a fraud. There is nothing in that article that says they bought those deeds.

So these guys are either deliberate crooks or they did not understand sovereignty at all. All of the people that the Govt have locked up who they (govt) claim are "sovereigns" have usually comitted fraud. It's a tar and feather or defamation thing. You know how it works. Hold something up to the people and falsely decry it's charatcter and link it to something it is not in order to destroy that other thing.

But then there are all of the sovereigns who the Government has not locked up and that is quite simply because they don't commit fraud. Being sovereign is not being a fraudster so don't persist in making the false link.

[7th trump]

There sure are. They called this group of baboons a "right wing extremist" group.


You have to be as dumb as a Niqqer to actually fall for the bullsh*t "sovereign citizens" claim you can use to avoid "laws," taxes, and bullets.

Spoken like a true closet socialist.................right phoenix?

Bill Thornton of 1215.org doesnt pay taxes on his labor and he won his case.

[wildcard]

Who was that guy that paid his people with gold coins. Won the first case and then they came after him again until they got him?

*there are no magic words buried in the code that are going to save the common person from the corrupt legal/tax system.

**the one they raided the workplace with full auto SMGs and ninja outfits. I'm sure someone remembers his name.

[wildcard]

Kahre:

http://www.lvrj.com/news/53287717.html?numComments=120

Las Vegas businessman Kahre guilty of 57 counts

Federal charges against four included evading taxes, real estate fraud


He faces up to 296 years in prison and fines of up to $14 million, according to the U.S. Attorney's office.


Maybe he can use that accepted for value scam!


Kahre and co-defendant Danille Cline have four children, with the youngest born during Kahre's 2007 trial on similar charges. That trial, with nine defendants, ended in zero convictions.

[wildcard]

Where's that George Carlin skit where he says it's a big club and YOU AIN'T IN IT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5dBZDSSky0

[wildcard]

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/nov/17/businessman-robert-kahre-sentenced-tax-fraud-schem/


Businessman Robert Kahre sentenced in tax fraud scheme

By Mary Manning

Tuesday, Nov. 17, 2009 | 6:55 p.m.

Robert Kahre, owner of six construction-related businesses in Las Vegas, was sentenced to more than 15 years in prison today.

Kahre paid employees more than $100 million in cash wages as part of an elaborate scheme to defraud the IRS, said U.S. Attorney Daniel G. Bogden of Nevada.

His sister, Lori Kahre, was sentenced to six years in prison for her role in the conspiracy. Two others, including Kahre's girlfriend and his business consultant, are expected to be sentenced Wednesday, Bogden said.

After more than three hours in a sentencing hearing, visiting U.S. District Judge David A. Ezra of the District of Hawaii sentenced Robert Kahre to serve 15 years and 10 months in federal prison, followed by three years of supervised release.

Kahre was also ordered to pay more than $16 million to the IRS.

The judge ordered Kahre, who has been free on a personal recognizance bond since his arrest in 2005, be taken into custody by U.S. Marshals.

In August 2009, after a three-month trial, Robert and Lori Kahre were found guilty of conspiracy to defraud the federal government to impede the IRS in its collection of income and employment taxes.

Robert Kahre was also convicted at the time of 49 counts of failure to collect or pay employment taxes, two counts of attempting to interfere with administering IRS laws, four counts of tax evasion and one count of wire fraud.

His sister was convicted to two counts of attempting to interfere with administering IRS laws, one count of making a false statement to a bank and seven counts of tax evasion.

Alexander C. Loglia, who served as Robert Kahre's business consultant, was convicted of filing a false income tax return and tax evasion.

Danille Cline, Robert Kahre's girlfriend, was convicted of attempts to interfere with administering IRS laws and wire fraud.

Between 1997 and 2003, Kahre owned and operated six construction businesses, including Wright Painting and Drywall, Production Plumbing, Production Air Conditioning, Production Electric, Union Pacific Construction and Sherman Tile and Marble. Through hundreds of employees at the businesses, Kahre and his sister used a payroll scheme to avoid paying taxes.

[Gaillo]

Where's that George Carlin skit where he says it's a big club and YOU AIN'T IN IT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5dBZDSSky0


FANTASTIC video! Thanks for posting that. Too bad most of the audience members probably thought it was "comedy" - instead of REALITY.

[wildcard]

Maybe George was a GIMmer. ;D

[Glass]

accepted for value is not a scam. It is a legitimate codified way of handling bills of exchange. It is how the bill of exchange is discharged that is the issue. Again your comments may be a deliberate mis direction or from lack of comprehension.

When some one presents someone with a bill or more fully called a "bill of exchange" the person receiving it may a) accept it, b) reject it or c) make a counter offer as to the terms.

If the recipient accepts it they can a) pay it or b) sign it. The making of signature is called "accepting for value". Now someone could write the full "accepted for value" on it if they wish or they can just sign it much like someone would sign a Credit Card slip issued during a store purchase. That is exactly what is happening.

Signing it or marking it A4V does not pay it. The payment is the next step. How someone pays it is separate to the acceptance phase of dealing with BoE's (bill of exchange).

Bills can be paid in several ways.

1) With legal tender such as FRN's
2) With lawful money (if the law allows this)
3) With set off (against an amount owed to the BoE recipient)

I'll look at Set Off because this is the one most often associated with the A4V process you enjoy deriding so much. Ok so it works like this.

Man A is owed money by Woman B. Man C presents Man A with a BoE (an invoice or bill) for supply of 2 cases of beer. Now Man A likes beer and accepts that Man C gave him some beer. He also accepts that he needs to pay Man C for the beer.

However, Man A doesn't have any FRN's to pay at the moment. Payday could be in a few days time....maybe next Tuesday. So he says to Man C look I don't have the cash right now but Woman C over there owes me quite a bit of FRN's. How about you get the money from her?

Man C thinks about it and says, ok if you put your John Hancock on this BoE for me I'll go sort it out with her.

Now this takes a bit of agreement to make happen. Man C needs confidence he will get the FRN's from Woman B and Woman B needs to a) agree to pay the money and deduct if from what she owes Man A and she needs to know Man A is aware of the bill in the first place. Hence Man A puts his hancock on it and he might also have said, well look if you can't get the cash to me can you give it to Man C for me cause I owe him some FRN's.

Right. So thats BoE 101.

The process is pretty basic but with a few minor changes it can work for other things. Lets say you are an idiot. An imbecile if you will who has no capacity to take charge of your personal affairs and you need some one to take charge of them for you. If it is your monetary affairs you might appoint a Fiduciary agent. Say your parents died before you turned 18 and left an insurance (bond) payout. Because you are under 18 someone is usually appointed to handle the money, to make sure your bills are paid and that an allowance is paid to you to cover bumming around expenses.

Either the BoE's for your living expenses (cable/power/taxes) will sent to you and you send them to the Fiduciary or the Fiduciary gets them directly. If you send them on you have to authorise the debt by accepting them for value. If the Fiduciary gets them directly then chances are they will check with you first or if you really are an idiot the Fiduciary might also be your Administrator or Agent. As an Agent they have more liability than an Administrator who has none.

Ok now the issue of debts in a moneyless society is that like can be paid with like. You can pay a debt with a debt. An FRN (debt note) can be used to pay a debt. Woman B can pay Man A's debt. Man A effectively paid his debt with another debt. It was up to Man C to collect.

The second stage of the A4V process as you know it is the settlement of the debt someone presents to you as a BoE. The deal is that you appoint someone as a Fiduciary for your public debts. Those are ones created by the Government. You then establish a method of accounting. Now accounting is simply the tracking of additions and deductions. You can start with an addition by provding some specie of money or currency. In a debt based society such a specie would obviously be a debt. So you create promisory note (a debt) and you use this to create the opening balance with the account your Fiduciary has created when they are appointed and instructed.

Now when someone comes to you and presents a BoE you accept it, for value and then forward it to the Fiduciary with instructions, which are usually written on the BoE document itself. They could be on a separate piece of paper with appropriate identification information so the Fiduciary can match up your instructions with the BoE concerned if you like. The Fiduciary then forwards the appropriate settlement to the Presenter of the BoE.

Now if you have appointed the appropriate Fiduciary with suitable skills and resources they can settle the BoE and make an accounting against your account. In this case it would be a debt against the account and a credit to the BoE presenter. Remeber that in a debt/credit society there is only debt instruments as specie of money and these can settle a debt. The debt is not paid it is just settled in that the recipient accepts it as settlement to their claim which was documented on the BoE.

Now charging a Fiduciary account with a promissory note is an interesting exercise in itself. At some point some kind of reckoning occurs. Who does the reckoning fall to? Depends on how it was set up. As the Govt is ultimately responsible for all public debts then by using this method for all public debts should work. It is a case of determining who's debt is it. Is it a private debt (perhaps I should call it a personal debt) or is it a public debt.

The comment about trying to win a case where the rules and the umpire are set against you does stand. That is why butting heads with these guys is going to cost you. Sometimes people get sucked into the battle without even realising they have started to fight. What you want to do is be like that bug or plant that is poisonous to predators. Some carry big coloured warnings signs or they are so unpalateable that no predator will touch them.

As far as I can see these people are the only ones who survive the system. The system wants you to fight with them. The minute you do you loose. The trick is to make the Government not want to fight with you. Not the other way around. As soon as you do this, you win. If you prepare yourself so that doing battle with you will be so distasteful or so costly to them they will leave you alone.

[wildcard]

Have you used A4V successfully Glass? With the courts, IRS or any other gov agency?

*I'm going to ask for proof.

[Phoenix]

Basically, according to Glass, everything about the "movement" is a fraud - even the name! ;D


Not the movement, the article. Get it right please. Do not make untrue claims about my statements. You guys keep deliberately using that combination of words to misdirect the discussion.


These "sovereign citizens" use the term without qualifications:

http://publius-sovereignty.blogspot.com/

http://remblogs.typepad.com/sovcit/2004/09/become_a_sovere.html

http://www.sovereign-citizenship.net/home.html

http://www.discharge-debt.com/id73.htm




So these guys are either deliberate crooks or they did not understand sovereignty at all.


Sovereignty for a government or an individual exists when that government or individual has sufficient BRUTE FORCE to repel any threats. And never in any other situation.

You don't "get" that. Corrupt governments don't recoil in horror when you recite a magic spell in their presence.

[Glass]

I don't live in the US and we do not have the same registration of securities systems that they have in the US. They are coming however it will be a few years yet.

So the answer for public debts is no. For private debts yes. In fact just in the last week. Remember the setting up of the process counts more than the process. And what I have described is how it works. Glad to see you can speed read.

[wildcard]

I don't live in the US and we do not have the same registration of securities systems that they have in the US. They are coming however it will be a few years yet.

So the answer for public debts is no. For private debts yes. In fact just in the last week. Remember the setting up of the process counts more than the process. And what I have described is how it works. Glad to see you can speed read.


Post grad in history. I read a lot. ;D

[Phoenix]

I don't live in the US


Oh, great. An "expert" on the US legal system. ::)

Where do you live, Nigeria?

[wildcard]

So in the end, the answer is no. We can't seem to find ONE successful case of any of this baloney. We get the occasional video of someone admittedly frustrating the judge and the clerk, but in the end the man comes out on top. Until someone shows me the money, it's a scam for flim-flammers to dupe people with.

[Glass]

Basically, according to Glass, everything about the "movement" is a fraud - even the name! ;D


Not the movement, the article. Get it right please. Do not make untrue claims about my statements. You guys keep deliberately using that combination of words to misdirect the discussion.


These "sovereign citizens" use the term without qualifications:

http://publius-sovereignty.blogspot.com/

http://remblogs.typepad.com/sovcit/2004/09/become_a_sovere.html

http://www.sovereign-citizenship.net/home.html

http://www.discharge-debt.com/id73.htm




So these guys are either deliberate crooks or they did not understand sovereignty at all.


Sovereignty for a government or an individual exists when that government or individual has sufficient BRUTE FORCE to repel any threats. And never in any other situation.

You don't "get" that. Corrupt governments don't recoil in horror when you recite a magic spell in their presence.


They might use the terms but they are not sovereigns are they? As poiinted out you can't be sovereign and citizen. Residents of US states can be sovereign. Citizens of the Ferderal United States cannot be sovereign. IT is very simple. So simple in fact I know you get it.

As for brute force it always wins out, that is why the usually use overwhelming force. It is the way to get your way. I've explained the process as it is codified. As it has worked for the last 600 years in lex mercatoria. It is not mystical or magical. It just is.

[wildcard]

You don't think this mountain of code in lawyer speak is cryptic to the common layperson?

[Glass]

Perhaps you guys are asking in the wrong places for answers. Try looking around, It might help.

[wildcard]

Trust me, I wish it were so easy. I wish there was some peaceful means to restore justice through merely educating the herd to protect their rights. I'm a realist though. I don't see it.

[Phoenix]

Trust me, I wish it were so easy. I wish there was some peaceful means to restore justice through merely educating the herd to protect their rights. I'm a realist though. I don't see it.


If "education" was all that is needed to defeat the most corrupt governmental regime ever devised, we'd have had good government in 1960.

[Glass]

Ah. All I did was explain the process of Bills of Exchange. They are a legitimate merchant process. They are used hundreds of millions of times per day. Possibly more. Accept for Value is 1 step in the Bills of Exchange process. I wanted to explain where the term comes from and how it does actually mean something, even to banks and Government.

It is the actual paying or settling of accounts that is the catch. The stumbling block. I suggested a couple of scenarios and also some of the reasoning behind some of these things being taught or spread. There is also a difference between public and private debt.

As for using it I never said I did or wanted to. Just sharing what I know from reading this stuff and running my own business and how everything up until the actual money part is valid. As for gobldegook legal jargons. Well I didn't write it but a maxim of law is that ignorance is no excuse. That is why I used the Fiduciary example. The courts classify anyone with an attorney as an imbecile under their legal definitions. Anyone who does not know the law of merchants is also an imbecile under the law. We are all merchants whether we can recognise it or whether we like it or not.

Here's another sort of example. If you have any experience with down syndrome or head injured people you come to realise very quickly that they need a routine to feel comfortable and safe. As long as the routine is there and they can perform it, then they are happy. If the routine is interrupted for what ever reason they can't function. They don't need to consider or think about or disect the meaning behind what they do. Obviously many of them can't. So they just do and as long as there are no hiccups it's all good.

Now consider someone who is your average Joe. He's not head injured or down syndrome but he does have limitted knowledge or ability to think deeply about what he does. Maybe he does think about it now and then but it's too hard or the football is on tv. As long as he does what he knows and it works, then it's all good for him as well. But if anything changes and something doesn't work there is a problem. So when people are raised they are taught and shown things of what to do. They do what they have been shown. It works so it's all good. While 100% of people operate under the law merchant every day 0.001% of them would know that a) there is a law b) they are merchants and c) that bill they got from the cable company is really called a Bill of Exchange and there are masses of rules about them.

Rumsfeld said it well. We don't know what we don't know or something like that. I remember reading a report somewhere that went along the lines that stupid people were usually too stupid to know they were stupid. I'm not making attacks on anyone. I'm just saying we can be ignorant of a lot of things. It doesn't make them not true.

For the record. I wish I could pay my bills without having to work as well. It would be sweet no? There are some who can. They are the ones who have the monopoly in monetising credit. Perhaps thats what these people are trying to take back. The ability to monetise their own credit.

[Glass]

Trust me, I wish it were so easy. I wish there was some peaceful means to restore justice through merely educating the herd to protect their rights. I'm a realist though. I don't see it.


If "education" was all that is needed to defeat the most corrupt governmental regime ever devised, we'd have had good government in 1960.


This is an excellent point. Schools used to teach Civics and not social studies. IMO it would have made all the difference and you probably would have never lost good government. I think you had it at somepoint.

[palani]

I'm a realist though. I don't see it.

More like a whipped dog expecting more beatings to occur if he ever did see it.

[palani]

Corrupt governments don't recoil in horror when you recite a magic spell in their presence.

A venture into illusion. Governments are incapable of recoil. They are not Man. They are incapable of horror either. How do you get in their presence? They have no body. They do not even exist except for the electrical activity in the mind of Man.

Is this your nightmare?

It is not going to be government that pulls the trigger or pulls the lever on the trap door. Just another Man who is as delusional as you.

[7th trump]

Trust me, I wish it were so easy. I wish there was some peaceful means to restore justice through merely educating the herd to protect their rights. I'm a realist though. I don't see it.


If "education" was all that is needed to defeat the most corrupt governmental regime ever devised, we'd have had good government in 1960.

You see phoenix doesnt understand any law because he never and will never study it to know first hand how the many different law forms present in the American system relate to each other or how to operate in them.
Theres is what is called "standing in law" and phoenix rather than educating himself just little would rather call everyone a stupid idiot for not going along with his socialist agenda.
Phoenix is like tadays practicing doctor. He rather not find the cause of the illness but rather treat the symptoms by getting up your anger to over the situation.
Like all socialist phoenix needs your anger to accomplish his agenda all the while he sits and does nothing but propagandize.......................basically a shyt stirer no better than TPTB using the mass to accomplish a goal.
Ever notice phoenix ridacules those with a common sense approach to a problem such as learning the operation of law that has usurped the mass......that would be researching the cause of a problem to eliminate its effect.
Its the same approach the PTB used to use the law against it host.

[Celtic Rogue]

Sorry to say this but a lot of you seem to only be able to try and win an argument by name calling!

Resorting to ad hominems as an argument surely shows either your lack of valid points or your lack of age.

This place used to be visited by people of thought and enlightenment... now it seems like more of a playground full of kids bent on trashing up peoples threads. And unfortunately it only takes a handfull of assholes to stink up a forum.

[Joe King]

Corrupt governments don't recoil in horror when you recite a magic spell in their presence.

A venture into illusion. Governments are incapable of recoil. They are not Man. They are incapable of horror either. How do you get in their presence? They have no body. They do not even exist except for the electrical activity in the mind of Man.

Is this your nightmare?

It is not going to be government that pulls the trigger or pulls the lever on the trap door. Just another Man who is as delusional as you.
Yep. It'll be some ignorant fool who's been deluded into thinking he's doing Gods work and is only following orders.
Same as nazis did under Hitler.

[palani]

What's that palani? Oh, no comment, I got ya.



unfortunately it only takes a handfull of assholes to stink up a forum.

Seems I rated a special invitation to join this thread. Several of them actually.

My own beliefs are not in either citizenship nor sovereignty and certainly NOT in sovereign-citizens.

Citizens are subject.

Sovereigns resort to battle and violence when losing an argument.

Sovereign-citizens is an oxymoron and use of this concept only displays ignorance whether by a reporter or the person identifying himself in this manner.

Phoenix seems willing to resort to violence so should probably be placed in the sovereign category even though he is merely an agent. This is certainly not to say his OPINIONS should be valued any more than anyone elses opinion but that he displays a tendency to revert to violent behavior when challenged.

Wildcard has defeated himself before he even started (the whipped dog syndrome) and I would guess he has placed himself in the citizen category for his own protection. Whatever system of government that will be formed in the future you can be assured that he will be at the forefront of enforcing its policies (pulling the trigger, pulling the trapdoor lever).

[horseshoe3]

You know what's really funny? If they hadn't bothered with fraudulent paperwork, they could have just moved in. After a while, they could have gained title by adverse possession. If that didn't work, the worst that would have happened to them is trespass charges. 48 hours in jail and $5000 fine max.

[wildcard]

And palani is the typical jew parasite. Producing nothing on his own, but latching on like a leech to a host.

[Book]

Producing nothing on his own, but latching on like a leech to a host.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qN2XMyxAs5o

:o

[palani]

And palani is the typical jew parasite. Producing nothing on his own, but latching on like a leech to a host.

Have you produced anything worthy of your salt?

[wildcard]

I suspected early on that you might be IAMIAF trying to sneak back in, but I was so wrong. You're not smart enough. Not even in the same league.

[palani]

I suspected early on that you might be IAMIAF trying to sneak back in, but I was so wrong. You're not smart enough. Not even in the same league.

Is that why I was INVITED to this thread?

Do you treat all your INVITED guests in such a manner?

[palani]

I guess characterization as a whipped dog must sting a little?

The comment was meant to be accurate, you know.

[wildcard]

I suspected early on that you might be IAMIAF trying to sneak back in, but I was so wrong. You're not smart enough. Not even in the same league.

Is that why I was INVITED to this thread?

Do you treat all your INVITED guests in such a manner?


You were trolling all my threads anyhow. Figured you'd want to see this one.

[wildcard]

I guess characterization as a whipped dog must sting a little?

The comment was meant to be accurate, you know.


Haha, whatever leech.

[Phoenix]

You see phoenix doesnt understand any law because he never and will never study it to know first hand how the many different law forms present in the American system relate to each other or how to operate in them.


7th trump "studies law" = reading esoteric, fantasy crap from CON-MEN like jetgraphics, et. al.

Phoenix studies law = he reads the actual statues, court cites, and GOES TO THE COURT ROOM to see how it all works out, and witnesses sophisticated "arguments" resulting in the expected "bailiff, take him into custody!"

[wildcard]

Exactly. Show me some actual cases of this shit working, or STFU.

[Phoenix]

I suspected early on that you might be IAMIAF trying to sneak back in, but I was so wrong. You're not smart enough. Not even in the same league.


Midnight Rambler is possible.

[palani]

I guess characterization as a whipped dog must sting a little?

The comment was meant to be accurate, you know.


Haha, whatever leech.




Thank you for agreeing with me.

[palani]

Exactly. Show me some actual cases of this sh*t working, or STFU.

But then you would have to BELIEVE it, wouldn't you?

If you BELIEVED then you might be put at risk when you attempted to apply this information and you have been trained to be SAFE rather than to be AT RISK.

Your kind deserve everything you get. You AREN'T getting much.

Don't feel sad. You were actually BRED for this type of society.

[palani]

Phoenix studies law = he reads the actual statues, court cites, and GOES TO THE COURT ROOM to see how it all works out, and witnesses sophisticated "arguments" resulting in the expected "bailiff, take him into custody!"


Read my words VERY carefully. What you see in a courtroom is a carefully scripted play to impress the spectators. Nothing more. Nothing less. It works on shallow minds. That is why it is so effective on you.

[7th trump]

You see phoenix doesnt understand any law because he never and will never study it to know first hand how the many different law forms present in the American system relate to each other or how to operate in them.


7th trump "studies law" = reading esoteric, fantasy crap from CON-MEN like jetgraphics, et. al.

Phoenix studies law = he reads the actual statues, court cites, and GOES TO THE COURT ROOM to see how it all works out, and witnesses sophisticated "arguments" resulting in the expected "bailiff, take him into custody!"

I have my doubts you studied any law phoenix because you havent yet to produce one statute to support your standing, not one!
Jet muted the court and the court puked Jet from incarceration. You on the other hand?????????
Show us the one and only statutue that turns a mans labor into taxable income phoenix?

[palani]

Super-Snitch earns his silver:


http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=13146396

Government protestor sentenced to home detention

Updated: Sep 13, 2010 3:13 PM
Video Gallery
State of resistance

Indianapolis - A government protestor, facing up to 10 years in prison on fraud and theft charges for using Federal Reserve accounts to purchase cars, won't spend another night behind bars.

Instead, Walter Eugene Lunsford was sentenced to home detention and it turns out he could hold the key to future prosecutions.

The 70-year-old Lunsford broke down in court, admitting through tears he made mistakes by illegally using routing numbers from the Federal Reserve to buy cars. Convicted of eight counts of fraud and theft, a Marion County judge ordered him to the confines of his home.

"Two-year sentence, that has all been suspended. He will be serving it on probation in informal home detention, which means he doesn't have the freedom to come and go as he chooses," explained Marion County Deputy Prosecutor Mary Hutchison.

"Sounded to me like justice," said a Lunsford supporter outside of court, who refused to give his name.

Lunsford served as the Indiana coordinator for the Sovereign Citizens Movement and a group that sent letters to the nation's governors, ordering them to leave office. Anti-government sympathizers count Monday's ruling a victory, even though Lunsford must help state and federal authorities with ongoing investigations.

"He should be able to give us their information and whether or not they've used this routing number or other routing numbers," Hutchison told 13 Investigates. "There is the chance that he can provide us significant information and it might be some of the friends that sat there and supported, he might have to turn them over to us."

Lunsford's scheme came unraveled after 14 of his friends met him at Capitol City Ford, looking to purchase cars on the taxpayers dime. The FBI later wired up a sales manager, who talked with Lunsford about stealing from the Federal Reserve.

JJ McNabb is an Internet sleuth based in Washington, who has infiltrated Sovereign groups.

"Many of them believe that when you're born, the government sets up 'super secret' account under your social security number," said McNabb.

An uptick in violence by some protesters, including the shooting of an Arkansas police officer and the crashing of a plane into an IRS building in Texas, have prompted FBI warnings to local law enforcement.

"They can hold their anti-government beliefs and exercise their first amendment rights, but it's when they go beyond that, when they start to violate federal law, it's when they start advocating violence, when there's a threat, or force of violence," that the FBI gets involved, explained Joint Terrorism Task Force Supervisor Greg Massa.

Lunsford denies supporting radical behavior.

"Ask yourself 'what is it about asking your government to stay within the Constitution' a terrorist act?," Lunsford told 13 Investigates just before his trial two weeks ago.

In the end, it was age and letters from his own children condemning his actions that prompted a judge to send him to lockdown at home.

Lunsford still faces weapons charges for trying to get a loaded gun through the airport. He can only leave home to go to court, church and for medical care. If he gets a job, prosecutors will argue that he pays restitution to Capitol City Ford.

Way to go, Book!!!!

[Glass]

Man I hate it when a good post goes down the toilet

[Glass]

Ok I remember this from about 6 months ago. It turns out about 3 guys got some copies of paperwork. They took the paper work, changed the names but didn't change the account numbers. It seems that those numbers actually were Govt purchasing accounts that either they lucked out with or someone fed them.

Tim Turner was shown the paper work by a couple of these guys and the first thing he noticed was that the account numbers were all the same for the 3 guys. He asked them why and they didn't know. The numbers were just on the paperwork they copied. He told them to expect some jail time. There was the account number issue as well as the fact that they were using these accounts to purchase things like cars.

So they were not using the process to set off or discharge public debt but make private purchases. This gets them in fraud. I remember listening to this on one of his shows. I'll have a copy of that show but which one it is I don't know. I have a few and not enough hours to listen to them all again.

Also note the use of that phrase again: "sovereign citizen". It's an oxymoron as are those guys it seems. oh well.

This post isn't as good as my first effort so take it for what it is.

[palani]

The topic seemed in line with the OP.

JJ McNabb aka demosothenes aka book was given credit for the bust.

Isn't that good news? While she was not paid in silver she certainly knows the value of it. You have all taught her that.

[Glass]

The topic seemed in line with the OP.

JJ McNabb aka demosothenes aka book was given credit for the bust.

Isn't that good news? While she was not paid in silver she certainly knows the value of it. You have all taught her that.


hmmm ok. Sorry. I didn't grasp the point of your post. Now I do. Not sure what to do about it though. Seems the sovereign standing still holds water. The convictions of peoples beliefs are enough to convict you these days, not the truth.


"Two-year sentence, that has all been suspended. He will be serving it on probation in informal home detention, which means he doesn't have the freedom to come and go as he chooses," explained Marion County Deputy Prosecutor Mary Hutchison.



They can hold their anti-government beliefs and exercise their first amendment rights, but it's when they go beyond that, when they start to violate federal law, it's when they start advocating violence, when there's a threat, or force of violence," that the FBI gets involved, explained Joint Terrorism Task Force Supervisor Greg Massa.

2 years probation for such "serious crimes". Seems very odd. Sounds like some kind of plea deal for turning evidence. Maybe the guy brokedown under pressure? Family pressure sounds like.

Does point out that the net is definately a battlefield. People don't believe that there is a whole mind control/F#$K division of the overlords working on the net. That we come into contact with them on these and other forums. The GIM1 exerience drove that home to me. Perhaps I've gotten complacent for a while there.

[palani]

hmmm ok. Sorry. I didn't grasp the point of your post. Now I do. Not sure what to do about it though. Seems the sovereign standing still holds water. The convictions of peoples beliefs are enough to convict you these days, not the truth.

If you ask for a jury of peers and they convict you then you in the end analysis convicted yourself. Most people who ask for a jury of peers get a jury of U.S. citizens instead. That is like asking for the debtor to judge his creditor.




2 years probation for such "serious crimes". Seems very odd. I wonder what the charges were? Sounds like some kind of plea deal. Maybe the guy brokedown under pressure? Family pressure sounds like. Prisons overloaded. Non-violent individual. Confession. Tears. Lamenting. Family. Promises to not offend again. The black robed priest had to love it and granted semi-dispensation with minimal punishment. Quite a show after all is said and done. Couldn't find a better one on Broadway.

[Bigjon]

The topic seemed in line with the OP.

JJ McNabb aka demosothenes aka book was given credit for the bust.

Isn't that good news? While she was not paid in silver she certainly knows the value of it. You have all taught her that.


just curious, do you have any evidence that book is McNabb?

[palani]

just curious, do you have any evidence that book is McNabb?


I have suggested in other threads that book is demosothenes (from the quattloosers group) with only silence as a response. Demosothenes is known to be McNabb.

Given no outright denial that then is the only evidence I need. You may require more.

Whether true or not it is better to disclose no personal details on any of these forums. There are agents everywhere and they generally are known to associate with baby killers and worse.