UAW Workers Vote 457 to 96 to Close Plant Instead of Reducing Salaries

[MNeagle]

UAW Workers Vote 457 to 96 to Close Plant Instead of Reducing Salaries

With Indiana unemployment rate at 10.1% one might think that jobs that pay more than double the minimum wage would be in demand. Actually, such jobs are in demand, but ironically not from some of those who have them.

Let's take a look at an offer Illinois businessman Justin Norman made last August to UAW members in a plant in Indianapolis scheduled to close in 2011. The offer was rejected today.

Illinois Businessman Proposes to Save 650 UAW Jobs

August 29, 2010: Norman talks pay with GM workers

Illinois businessman Justin Norman continued his effort to win over GM Indianapolis stamping plant workers, telling a gathering Sunday that skilled trades employees at his Chicago-area plant will earn nearly $100,000 this year.

GM executives three years ago scheduled the shutdown of the 2.1-million-square-foot metal plant in 2011 if no buyer appeared. This spring, JD Norman Industries agreed to take over the factory if UAW Local 23 accepted a new contract that cuts costs.

The new contract would include a lower base wage of $15.50 per hour, down from $29 per hour, and pare the wage for skilled trades workers to $24 per hour from about $33.

Autoworkers who stay with JD Norman would receive lump sum bonuses, in some cases up to $35,000 over two years, and retain the right to transfer to open GM plants. They could keep the bonus if they did transfer.
UAW Prefers No Jobs to Jobs

September 27, 2010: UAW turns down contract offer to keep Indy stamping plant open
General Motors autoworkers have rejected the contract offer from JD Norman Industries to continue operating an Indianapolis stamping plant, said Maurice Davison, a UAW official in Indianapolis.

According to retired GM autoworker Gregg Shotwell, publisher of the UAW dissident newsletter Live Bait & Ammo, the final tally included 457 "no" and 96 "yes" votes.

The rejection means that General Motors will proceed with plans to remove machinery and close the plant in 2011, Davison said.

The plant employs 650 workers.
How is it that people can be so destructive to their own well being?

Lines would be 5 miles long for jobs that pay $15-$24 per hour with a $35,000 bonus after two years if such an offer could be made to the general public.

I do not know the nature of their existing contract or how long severance benefits might last, but I strongly suspect many of those rejecting the offer will start looking for minimum-wage jobs at Walmart when their benefits expire. Few if any of them will blame themselves for their situation.

Mike "Mish" Shedlock

link (http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2010/09/uaw-workers-vote-457-to-96-to-close.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+MishsGlobalEconomicTrendAnaly sis+%28Mish%27s+Global+Economic+Trend+Analysis%29)

[Dogman]

What those idiots are doing to them selfs, is the absolute peak of stupidity.

Surely those brain dead uaw workers all deserve some kind of Darwin award!

Before they step off the edge and commit group suicide. :boom

Idiots! :CS

[chad]

same thing happened about 10 years ago to a company i worked for.

to this day, when i go back to visit family, i'll run in to people from there who STILL blame the evil bosses, capitalism, etc, never the union.

[Ares]

Yep same here, the best man to my wedding is a union pipe fitter. Always blames the corporations blah blah blah. Never the parasitic union that saps the wealth of any company it organizes under and kills. It's always the company or management etc. etc. etc.

[7th trump]

They are calling the bluff of the stockholders.
All unions know what the company earns in profit and base their collective agreement on that fact. They get to see the books and come to an agreement to what a decent wage is without busting the company.
What always kills me are the brain dead people who think the unions are out to kill the company.....total bs.
Ever since the inception of an all world government all companies had an out to kill off the unions to widen their profit margin on your labor and standard of living.
Have you noticed the all the jobs in this country cannot support a family of four or three or even two?
Use your freaken brains people........wheres the common sense to think the companies are out to help you. Shyt the companies voted and lobbied to pass nafta.
The biggest kill to American automakers, or for that matter industry in general, are the weak tarrif laws in the US to allow foreign shytty cars and products into America which eventually brought on nafta and cafta.
Everything is the bottom line (greed) even if it takes passing laws allowing foreigners into this country to undermine it which is what we are seeing today.
Each and every one of you people scream facism and dont think far enough back or research far enough to see the problem lies past your freaken self centered noses.
60% of people who complaim about unions are too damn lazy to go to training to be a union and to stupid to get into college.
If you want to eat hamburger and call it steak then so be, but dont cry and scream about it and put the blame on something you have no idea about........just sit their and shut your pie hole.
You wouldnt have a weekend it if wasnt for unions nor a 40 hour work week either. It would be sweat shop where the boss tells you when to go home or when to take a break.

[Ares]

60% of people who complaim about unions are too damn lazy to go to training to be a union and to stupid to get into college.
If you want to eat hamburger and call it steak then so be, but dont cry and scream about it and put the blame on something you have no idea about........just sit their and shut your pie hole.
You wouldnt have a weekend it if wasnt for unions nor a 40 hour work week either. It would be sweat shop where the boss tells you when to go home or when to take a break.

Like being trained by a union guarantee's craftsmanship? Are you kidding me? I used to pre-wire hospitals, data centers, clinics you name it. These idiot union morons couldn't even follow comp-TIA standards regarding how many phone and data should be run to a particular wall plate, not to mention follow punch down (termination) standards at the patch panels.

I had some Union thug chew me out because he had a guy sitting at home, because the company outsourced their I.T. to the private non-union company that I worked for. I told him if they actually knew WTF they were doing and didn't charge an arm and a leg for substandard work then his guy might actually be on the job, but instead you got me. Some lowly non-union guy trying to make a living on my own at 23 years old.


So save the "praise the union" crap as it doesn't fly in reality.

Unions are like anything else, and you lambaste Greed for the corporation but completely forget the GREED of the union.

Unions had their place in history, and in all likelihood that's where they should of stayed. Even IF the American government didn't suck globalist schlong and didn't institute the regulations to outsource our job market do you honestly believe that we as Americans could continue to afford 50 to 70,000 dollars cars to help pay for a forklift driver making 100,000+ a year plus medical coverage when the average salary for the working class is below 50,000 a year and has to pay a large portion of that for their own medical coverage?

Come on, like you said use your brains man I know you have em.

[Dogman]

They are calling the bluff of the stockholders.
All unions know what the company earns in profit and base their collective agreement on that fact. They get to see the books and come to an agreement to what a decent wage is without busting the company.
What always kills me are the brain dead people who think the unions are out to kill the company.....total bs.
Ever since the inception of an all world government all companies had an out to kill off the unions to widen their profit margin on your labor and standard of living.
Have you noticed the all the jobs in this country cannot support a family of four or three or even two?
Use your freaken brains people........wheres the common sense to think the companies are out to help you. Shyt the companies voted and lobbied to pass nafta.
The biggest kill to American automakers, or for that matter industry in general, are the weak tarrif laws in the US to allow foreign shytty cars and products into America which eventually brought on nafta and cafta.
Everything is the bottom line (greed) even if it takes passing laws allowing foreigners into this country to undermine it which is what we are seeing today.
Each and every one of you people scream facism and dont think far enough back or research far enough to see the problem lies past your freaken self centered noses.
60% of people who complaim about unions are too damn lazy to go to training to be a union and to stupid to get into college.
If you want to eat hamburger and call it steak then so be, but dont cry and scream about it and put the blame on something you have no idea about........just sit their and shut your pie hole.
You wouldnt have a weekend it if wasnt for unions nor a 40 hour work week either. It would be sweat shop where the boss tells you when to go home or when to take a break.





Those workers have guaranteed them selfs a ticket to welfare and or lower paying jobs. Fat lot of good the union did for them in saving the jobs that will be lost
.
I agree unions have done great good for the working man, that is in do doubt! But they are killing them selfs
one shop at a time by being greedy in hard times for the working man.

Having a job is one hell of a lot better than not having a job because of standing on principles!
Especially if there is no job to step into when you leave the current one.

[ShortJohnSilver]

Wonder what is going on with Indy area ... Hitachi Data Systems has an assembly plant there where they put together their $500K and up storage systems (multiple rack disk arrays with e.g. 500 x 2TB drives and custom software). They are shutting down in Indy and moving the plant to Oklahoma.

[Horn]

Way I view Unions is that they're maxed benefit from inception, so the only demands that can be made thereafter are based solely on other factors such as market & cost of living swings.

It turns into the same premise as Big Gov, down the line.

Draws are only taken to the plus side, and never to the down side. Thus over time they become cancerous.

[7th trump]

60% of people who complaim about unions are too damn lazy to go to training to be a union and to stupid to get into college.
If you want to eat hamburger and call it steak then so be, but dont cry and scream about it and put the blame on something you have no idea about........just sit their and shut your pie hole.
You wouldnt have a weekend it if wasnt for unions nor a 40 hour work week either. It would be sweat shop where the boss tells you when to go home or when to take a break.

Like being trained by a union guarantee's craftsmanship? Are you kidding me? I used to pre-wire hospitals, data centers, clinics you name it. These idiot union morons couldn't even follow comp-TIA standards regarding how many phone and data should be run to a particular wall plate, not to mention follow punch down (termination) standards at the patch panels.

I had some Union thug chew me out because he had a guy sitting at home, because the company outsourced their I.T. to the private non-union company that I worked for. I told him if they actually knew WTF they were doing and didn't charge an arm and a leg for substandard work then his guy might actually be on the job, but instead you got me. Some lowly non-union guy trying to make a living on my own at 23 years old.


So save the "praise the union" crap as it doesn't fly in reality.

Unions are like anything else, and you lambaste Greed for the corporation but completely forget the GREED of the union.

Unions had their place in history, and in all likelihood that's where they should of stayed. Even IF the American government didn't suck globalist schlong and didn't institution the regulations to outsource our job market do you honestly believe that we as Americans could continue to afford 50 to 70,000 dollars cars to help pay for a forklift driver making 100,000+ a year when the average salary for the working class is below 50,000?

Come on, like you said use your brains man I know you have em.

I'm union teledata local 145 Rock Island Ill.
I know all about what you are saying about an electrician doing a teledata job. Thats why the IBEW has started a teledata classification to stop the bullshyt and keep in competition with the non-union ma and pa shops.
Substandard work?
I guess my substandard work is why Deere and company has had to repull a 144 fiber line that a nonunion electrical outfit fubar'ed and why they had to call back the non-union outfit to come and finish putting on the plates so the cat 6 isnt being kicked around on the floor or why this non-union outfit didnt follow fire code and why this outfit ripped Deere off for 120,000 dollars of useless camera equipment sitting in a rack that a 30,000.00 piece of equipment can do.
Not only that but this nonunion outfit had to rewire 4/5th of the Harvester plant because they cant follow a simple blue print.
And on top off all that these non unions workers make 1.00 dollar less than the union journey man electrician with virtually no training than on the job. Their 401k just took a nose dive where we as a union are self insured with our own retirement program that not attached to most federal regs.
Mean while the non union company is f*cking over their workers on health care. My wife works at the insurance company where this particular outfit was sold insurance and they are screwing over by denying their workers at every opportunity any claims they think they can get away with.

One last thing all these corporations dont have to move over seas. Deere has been importing parts from all over the world to make their combines at a lower cost for them but Deere will not pass on that savings to the consumer. Pissed a lot of UAW workers when Deere said they will get what ever the markets gets them for their combines. Capitalism for the corporations but not for the Americans.

[7th trump]

They are calling the bluff of the stockholders.
All unions know what the company earns in profit and base their collective agreement on that fact. They get to see the books and come to an agreement to what a decent wage is without busting the company.
What always kills me are the brain dead people who think the unions are out to kill the company.....total bs.
Ever since the inception of an all world government all companies had an out to kill off the unions to widen their profit margin on your labor and standard of living.
Have you noticed the all the jobs in this country cannot support a family of four or three or even two?
Use your freaken brains people........wheres the common sense to think the companies are out to help you. Shyt the companies voted and lobbied to pass nafta.
The biggest kill to American automakers, or for that matter industry in general, are the weak tarrif laws in the US to allow foreign shytty cars and products into America which eventually brought on nafta and cafta.
Everything is the bottom line (greed) even if it takes passing laws allowing foreigners into this country to undermine it which is what we are seeing today.
Each and every one of you people scream facism and dont think far enough back or research far enough to see the problem lies past your freaken self centered noses.
60% of people who complaim about unions are too damn lazy to go to training to be a union and to stupid to get into college.
If you want to eat hamburger and call it steak then so be, but dont cry and scream about it and put the blame on something you have no idea about........just sit their and shut your pie hole.
You wouldnt have a weekend it if wasnt for unions nor a 40 hour work week either. It would be sweat shop where the boss tells you when to go home or when to take a break.





Those workers have guaranteed them selfs a ticket to welfare and or lower paying jobs. Fat lot of good the union did for them in saving the jobs that will be lost
.
I agree unions have done great good for the working man, that is in do doubt! But they are killing them selfs
one shop at a time by being greedy in hard times for the working man.

Having a job is one hell of a lot better than not having a job because of standing on principles!
Especially if there is no job to step into when you leave the current one.



Unions are up against corporate facism so read between the lines. The company would love to lower wages ONLY to widen their profit margin instead of pulling up shop and taking it over seas. It will cost the company to move and thats where the calling the bluff lies at.

How greedy are the corporations. The management has a stake in this too they will lose their jobs as well, so do the people win or the greedy facist corporations?
How greedy are the companies?
Greedy enough to want to make you eat beef flavored tofu or the real cow?

[Gknowmx]

Insert here: 'pass the popcorn icon'

[Book]

http://goodnews.ws/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Buffett-Gates2.jpg

Billionaires given the choice between keeping their individual low-taxed $50 Billion Paycheck or paying their American Workers a living wage decided to ship all their factories to China.

:oo-->

[chad]

neither warren buffet nor bill gates ever had a factory they shipped to china. :oo-->

[Dogman]

Unions are up against corporate facism so read between the lines. The company would love to lower wages ONLY to widen their profit margin instead of pulling up shop and taking it over seas. It will cost the company to move and thats where the calling the bluff lies at.

How greedy are the corporations. The management has a stake in this too they will lose their jobs as well, so do the people win or the greedy facist corporations?
How greedy are the companies?
Greedy enough to want to make you eat beef flavored tofu or the real cow?



Yea sure.

Yes it costs to move overseas! BUT! They will recover that loss ,because the country that they move to will help offset the cost of the move to their country. PLUS! The now moved factory will be a gold mind for the stockholders because the company will have an almost free hand , lax environmental laws if any. Paying the new workers 1/10 or less than the American counter part.

Having to pay very few if any benefits. Retirement = :lol what retirement! And the list goes on.

It will profit the corporation to make the move, the Bastards!

Sad but true that is the new reality!

[basplaer]

So how is it good for the poor union guy now out of a job?

Maybe the symbiotic relationship of organizer/organized was once a good thing (tm) but we're no longer living in those times. Seems more like Union, Inc. is facilitating the move. Probably for a tidy sum to boot.

[MNeagle]

Of course it isn't. It's called cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[7th trump]

How greedy are the union leaders that always get their pockets lined? The so called "working man" takes it up the ass from his union boss as well and then is told what to do by him.

The so called "worker" union or not is going to take it up the ass. Have you been paying attention to current events for the last decade or so?

[undgrd]

IMO Unions get lumped in with Affirmative Action. Possibly needed for their time but their time has come and gone. Corporations are interested in their bottom line. Corporations do not care who is doing their work as long as it meets specification, is done on time, and is done within budget.

[chad]

my only experience with unions is when i worked for a summer at 3m. i was threatened during a bathroom break by 3 union members who told me they would beat the shit out of me if i kept working as fast as i was.

[7th trump]

Unions are up against corporate facism so read between the lines. The company would love to lower wages ONLY to widen their profit margin instead of pulling up shop and taking it over seas. It will cost the company to move and thats where the calling the bluff lies at.

How greedy are the corporations. The management has a stake in this too they will lose their jobs as well, so do the people win or the greedy facist corporations?
How greedy are the companies?
Greedy enough to want to make you eat beef flavored tofu or the real cow?



Yea sure.

Yes it costs to move overseas! BUT! They will recover that loss ,because the country that they move to will help offset the cost of the move to their country. PLUS! The now moved factory will be a gold mind for the stockholders because the company will have an almost free hand , lax environmental laws if any. Paying the new workers 1/10 or less than the American counter part.

Having to pay very few if any benefits. Retirement = :lol what retirement! And the list goes on.

It will profit the corporation to make the move, the Bastards!

Sad but true that is the new reality!



Before there ever was nafta you had unions and everything was fine. Nafta is the reason behind losing job over sea's. The unions have never asked for their jobs to go away. The unions never lobbied for nafta it was the unions that were spreading the news what nafta was really going to do and that was to legally outsource America instead of creating more work.

[Ash_Williams]

All unions know what the company earns in profit and base their collective agreement on that fact. They get to see the books and come to an agreement to what a decent wage is without busting the company.

Yeah, like how the unions all accept wage cuts when the company has fallen on hard times and is losing money.

The money for wages has to come from somewhere. If they're paying someone $30 an hour to polish off hubcaps, then you're paying someone $30 an hour to polish off hubcaps when you buy a car. Or you could not buy American and pay someone $15 or $5 to polish off hubcaps. So what are you going to do? A reasonable consumer isn't going to feel ok paying thousands of dollars more for his car so some unskilled laborer can be paid a stupid amount for what he does. Sympathy is lost for unions when they are ripping us off to ride the gravy train.

When they pay someone $22 to sweep the bus.. where does money that come from? Yeah, the people who take the bus... the ones that earn $7.50 an hour if anything doing something they hate so that some guy can get 3x as much to just wave a broom around a bit and take lots of breaks then drive home to his 53" plasma TV.

"Sorry Miss Single Mom... we gotta hike fares 15% 'cause Mr. Sweeper needs free dental care for his kids and a 50k/yr pension... yes I know you would work twice as hard at this job for 1/2 of what he gets and cry tears of joy for the opportunity that Mr. Sweeper pisses on daily, but you weren't lucky enough to get a city job so we're just going to go ahead and let you pay for our lifestyles by charging you a little more to get to your job at burger king and back. Tough break, loser, try not to feel too bad when you're at home sweeping up the dead cockroaches in your tiny apartment..."

[Dogman]

How greedy are the union leaders that always get their pockets lined? The so called "working man" takes it up the ass from his union boss as well and then is told what to do by him.

The so called "worker" union or not is going to take it up the ass. Have you been paying attention to current events for the last decade or so?


Have you stepped down off your soap box? :soap

:ROFL:

[7th trump]

my only experience with unions is when i worked for a summer at 3m. i was threatened during a bathroom break by 3 union members who told me they would beat the sh*t out of me if i kept working as fast as i was.

Happen to me too and they backed down when threatened with law suit.
Unions dont like bad publicity.

[7th trump]

How greedy are the union leaders that always get their pockets lined? The so called "working man" takes it up the ass from his union boss as well and then is told what to do by him.

The so called "worker" union or not is going to take it up the ass. Have you been paying attention to current events for the last decade or so?


Have you stepped down off your soap box? :soap

:ROFL:






What....is that all you can come up with?
The truth hursts doesnt it?

[mightymanx]

Unions are a bureaucratic organization just like any other they all progress along the same lines down the same paths.

The UAW is no different then the RNC, DNC or Department of______________, they only serve to enlarge their power base and will say or do anything to accomplish that goal.

If no dues were paid would they still act on your behalf?

When doubt follow the money.
All is going according to plan.

[7th trump]

All unions know what the company earns in profit and base their collective agreement on that fact. They get to see the books and come to an agreement to what a decent wage is without busting the company.

Yeah, like how the unions all accept wage cuts when the company has fallen on hard times and is losing money.

The money for wages has to come from somewhere. If they're paying someone $30 an hour to polish off hubcaps, then you're paying someone $30 an hour to polish off hubcaps when you buy a car. Or you could not buy American and pay someone $15 or $5 to polish off hubcaps. So what are you going to do? A reasonable consumer isn't going to feel ok paying thousands of dollars more for his car so some unskilled laborer can be paid a stupid amount for what he does. Sympathy is lost for unions when they are ripping us off to ride the gravy train.

When they pay someone $22 to sweep the bus.. where does money that come from? Yeah, the people who take the bus... the ones that earn $7.50 an hour if anything doing something they hate so that some guy can get 3x as much to just wave a broom around a bit and take lots of breaks then drive home to his 53" plasma TV.

"Sorry Miss Single Mom... we gotta hike fares 15% 'cause Mr. Sweeper needs free dental care for his kids and a 50k/yr pension... yes I know you would work twice as hard at this job for 1/2 of what he gets and cry tears of joy for the opportunity that Mr. Sweeper pisses on daily, but you weren't lucky enough to get a city job so we're just going to go ahead and let you pay for our lifestyles by charging you a little more to get to your job at burger king and back. Tough break, loser, try not to feel too bad when you're at home sweeping up the dead cockroaches in your tiny apartment..."

I just love it when people cant see the forest through the trees.
Just how much do you think nafta and now cafta has screwed with the free market?

[mightymanx]

By my calculations we are on roughly chaper 33 of the real life version of Atlas Shrugged.

[Dogman]

How greedy are the union leaders that always get their pockets lined? The so called "working man" takes it up the ass from his union boss as well and then is told what to do by him.

The so called "worker" union or not is going to take it up the ass. Have you been paying attention to current events for the last decade or so?


Have you stepped down off your soap box? :soap

:ROFL:






What....is that all you can come up with?
The truth hurts doesn't it? Edit: Fixed it for you!


Yea It is your truth not mine. ;D

I have had some good arguments with union guys over the years, one in a bar in south Louisiana even got non-verbal and he lost physically but still would not change his ways. ;D

I have had my say and fun on this topic with you , Maybe some one else can have fun.


:ROFL:

Have a good day it has been a hoot.

[7th trump]

IMO Unions get lumped in with Affirmative Action. Possibly needed for their time but their time has come and gone. Corporations are interested in their bottom line. Corporations do not care who is doing their work as long as it meets specification, is done on time, and is done within budget.

No, corporation do not meet specifications. Seen any recalls lately in the news?
Specifications are just cumbersome regulations that corp has to follow. And yes they dont care who's doing it. Didnt care that children were working 13+ hour a day everyday for months on end in the early 1900's and only given breaks when the boss felt like giving them one.
China is seeing unions form, so I guess unions are not out of their time are they?
They are needed as the working guy of any color soon see's the greed of corporations and their taking advantage of the little man.

[7th trump]

How greedy are the union leaders that always get their pockets lined? The so called "working man" takes it up the ass from his union boss as well and then is told what to do by him.

The so called "worker" union or not is going to take it up the ass. Have you been paying attention to current events for the last decade or so?


Have you stepped down off your soap box? :soap

:ROFL:






What....is that all you can come up with?
The truth hursts doesnt it?


Yea It is your truth not mine. ;D

I have had some good arguments with union guys over the years, one in a bar in south Louisiana even got non-verbal and he lost physically but still would not change his ways. ;D

I have had my say and fun on this topic with you , Maybe some one else can have fun.


:ROFL:

Have a good day it has been a hoot.

Nice bowing out there fella.......nice!
Go have your tofu hamburger and keep telling yourself its beef.

[7th trump]

He was a union sheet metal guy and his dad before him, We went non-union with our shop, you wouldn't believe the amount of money the union wanted per guy, per year, I can't remember exactly, but I know it was at least $ 28,000 on top of wages, We never would have made it, the unions are a bunch of thieving bastards.

What kind of union?

[undgrd]

No, corporation do not meet specifications. Seen any recalls lately in the news?
Specifications are just cumbersome regulations that corp has to follow. And yes they dont care who's doing it. Didnt care that children were working 13+ hour a day everyday for months on end in the early 1900's and only given breaks when the boss felt like giving them one.
China is seeing unions form, so I guess unions are not out of their time are they?
They are needed as the working guy of any color soon see's the greed of corporations and their taking advantage of the little man.


More often then not, corporations do meet their specifications. They would not be able to stay in business otherwise. How long would a restaurant stay in business sending Medium Well steaks to customers requesting rare?

[mightymanx]

IMO Unions get lumped in with Affirmative Action. Possibly needed for their time but their time has come and gone. Corporations are interested in their bottom line. Corporations do not care who is doing their work as long as it meets specification, is done on time, and is done within budget.

No, corporation do not meet specifications. Seen any recalls lately in the news?
Specifications are just cumbersome regulations that corp has to follow. And yes they dont care who's doing it. Didnt care that children were working 13+ hour a day everyday for months on end in the early 1900's and only given breaks when the boss felt like giving them one.
China is seeing unions form, so I guess unions are not out of their time are they?
They are needed as the working guy of any color soon see's the greed of corporations and their taking advantage of the little man.



In the early 1900's the 13 hour a day child labor pool, came from farms where they worked 18 hours a day with the very real possibility of starving to death when crops failed. So 13 hour a day factory job was a big quality of life improvement. That part of the story is conviently left out of history books.

[Ash_Williams]

I just love it when people cant see the forest through the trees.
Just how much do you think nafta and now cafta has screwed with the free market?

Chicken and the egg. Insanely high union wages will lead to alternatives. Auto workers are (soon to be "were") paid an insane amount, especially by GM. 6 figures for pushing things around, pressing buttons... that can't go on forever. The choices are cut wages, more automation and cut jobs here, open new plants overseas, or just go under. Union blocked the first two, they couldn't block the last two.

[Ares]

my only experience with unions is when i worked for a summer at 3m. i was threatened during a bathroom break by 3 union members who told me they would beat the sh*t out of me if i kept working as fast as i was.


Why I always carried when I was on Union job sites. My prior history working construction having my side arm has saved me from Union thugs more than once.

I was met out by my truck after my prior altercation with the union boss from the above post by 3 union neanderthals, and I lifted my belt to show my side arm. They stepped away from my vehicle and I went along my merry way. If I hadn't I probably would of gotten a beat down because I didn't tow the union line and I told their boss to stick it on more than one occasion on that site because he was a lazy good for nothing sack of union sh*t who hated everything about "unorganized labor".

[Korbin Dallas]

Union bosses, corporate heads, all pigs feeding from the same trough.

[7th trump]

I just love it when people cant see the forest through the trees.
Just how much do you think nafta and now cafta has screwed with the free market?

Chicken and the egg. Insanely high union wages will lead to alternatives. Auto workers are (soon to be "were") paid an insane amount, especially by GM. 6 figures for pushing things around, pressing buttons... that can't go on forever. The choices are cut wages, more automation and cut jobs here, open new plants overseas, or just go under. Union blocked the first two, they couldn't block the last two.



So a non-union cad person making 50,000 a year drawing on a computer way to much also?

I agree that 6 figures to too much, but the sad part of it the corporations agree to it. And how many hours are these guys putting in to get 6 figures? Are they sacrificing weekends and pulling two shifts during the week........you dont know!
Theres guys here who make 6 figure earning 15.00 to 18.00 an hour, but they are here 16 hours a day every day when the rest want to stay home for the weekends.
You ever hear of the Gm ever wanting to lower their price on a car?
Nope!
Like Deere, they will get what the market is even if its made over seas for 200.00 bucks you will never see the savings.......ever!

[Ares]

I'm union teledata local 145 Rock Island Ill.
I know all about what you are saying about an electrician doing a teledata job. Thats why the IBEW has started a teledata classification to stop the bullshyt and keep in competition with the non-union ma and pa shops.
Substandard work?

I never said your work was substandard, but my experience with 3 unionized outfits in my area (Northern Indiana) during early 2000's was what I was basing that argument off of.

If the IBEW has just now started implementing teledata classifications they are extremely behind the times. I had my A+ cert (if you can tie your shoes you can get one of those) Network+, CCNA and my MCP by the time I was 22 back in 2000. I've let my CCNA lapse as you really don't need it to be a wire monkey and I needed experience so I started at a consulting outfit (not a mom and pop shop by any stretch of the imagination.) Where they would design implement, and install networks, equipment and configuration and even custom application building depending on what the client wanted.

No one is going to pay a union guy 30-40 bucks an hour to pull a wire and that's all they can offer.

Until the IBEW can go through the application of designing a network (It's not just pulling cable) they won't be able to compete with "non-union" specialized outfits. I'm talking from design, to implementation of the network and data storage facilities.

[undgrd]

So a non-union cad person making 50,000 a year drawing on a computer way to much also?

I agree that 6 figures to too much, but the sad part of it the corporations agree to it. And how many hours are these guys putting in to get 6 figures? Are they sacrificing weekends and pulling two shifts during the week........you dont know!
Theres guys here who make 6 figure earning 15.00 to 18.00 an hour, but they are here 16 hours a day every day when the rest want to stay home for the weekends.
You ever hear of the Gm ever wanting to lower their price on a car?
Nope!
Like Deere, they will get what the market is even if its made over seas for 200.00 bucks you will never see the savings.......ever!


Why is 6 figures too much? Maybe someone is worth 6 figures because they are talented enough to not need to work double shifts and sacrifice weekends.

If someone quotes you a price to repair something and it only takes them 30 minutes do you feel slighted? Would you feel better if a less qualified person charged the same amount but took 3 times as long? Personally I want the best value. If someone can repair a broken lawnmower engine in 30 minutes vs 90 minutes for the same price, I'm getting good value IMO.

[mightymanx]

I just love it when people cant see the forest through the trees.
Just how much do you think nafta and now cafta has screwed with the free market?

Chicken and the egg. Insanely high union wages will lead to alternatives. Auto workers are (soon to be "were") paid an insane amount, especially by GM. 6 figures for pushing things around, pressing buttons... that can't go on forever. The choices are cut wages, more automation and cut jobs here, open new plants overseas, or just go under. Union blocked the first two, they couldn't block the last two.



So a non-union cad person making 50,000 a year drawing on a computer way to much also?

I agree that 6 figures to too much, but the sad part of it the corporations agree to it. And how many hours are these guys putting in to get 6 figures? Are they sacrificing weekends and pulling two shifts during the week........you dont know!
Theres guys here who make 6 figure earning 15.00 to 18.00 an hour, but they are here 16 hours a day every day when the rest want to stay home for the weekends.
You ever hear of the Gm ever wanting to lower their price on a car?
Nope!
Like Deere, they will get what the market is even if its made over seas for 200.00 bucks you will never see the savings.......ever!

What about consumer electronics the Computer made by IBM in the early 90's cost 1,000 FRN's now it can be had for 1/2 of that and I am not factoring the advanced capability of the new computer or inflation.

It seems that prices never fall in Union production sectors. Now is that a factor in using union wages as an excuse for keeping prices high or a direct result of it, I don't know?

Personally I will always take the one in the hand vice the two in the bush, consequently I rarely have the UAW problem or Boeing Picking up and moving out of Washington or any of the other examples.

[7th trump]

So a non-union cad person making 50,000 a year drawing on a computer way to much also?

I agree that 6 figures to too much, but the sad part of it the corporations agree to it. And how many hours are these guys putting in to get 6 figures? Are they sacrificing weekends and pulling two shifts during the week........you dont know!
Theres guys here who make 6 figure earning 15.00 to 18.00 an hour, but they are here 16 hours a day every day when the rest want to stay home for the weekends.
You ever hear of the Gm ever wanting to lower their price on a car?
Nope!
Like Deere, they will get what the market is even if its made over seas for 200.00 bucks you will never see the savings.......ever!


Why is 6 figures too much? Maybe someone is worth 6 figures because they are talented enough to not need to work double shifts and sacrifice weekends.

If someone quotes you a price to repair something and it only takes them 30 minutes do you feel slighted? Would you feel better if a less qualified person charged the same amount but took 3 times as long? Personally I want the best value. If someone can repair a broken lawnmower engine in 30 minutes vs 90 minutes for the same price, I'm getting good value IMO.

Ahhhhhhhh see the double standard?
A guy earning 20.00 an hour working over time and weekends is an over paid dirt bag while a guy with not much more skill (cad) can sit back and collect 120,000.00 to draw on a computer screen.
I'm ridaculed to no end for being union who does a job that is bid against other union shops and non-union shops.
We union guys are just savages and thugs?
When I was nonunion I saw the books because I closed out the jobs when they were done and it was sickening to see the profit margin the company was making while paying their guys 11 bucks an hour and we paid for our insurance after taxes.
Mean while the do nothing boss (not the owner) kicks around in a 50,000.00 BMW and 350,000.00 house.
Kiss my working white ars.

On a personal note, the union I belong to cant even strike. We work through negotiations until they are met and I've never cornered anyone who was not union and threatened them and never will.

[7th trump]

I just love it when people cant see the forest through the trees.
Just how much do you think nafta and now cafta has screwed with the free market?

Chicken and the egg. Insanely high union wages will lead to alternatives. Auto workers are (soon to be "were") paid an insane amount, especially by GM. 6 figures for pushing things around, pressing buttons... that can't go on forever. The choices are cut wages, more automation and cut jobs here, open new plants overseas, or just go under. Union blocked the first two, they couldn't block the last two.



So a non-union cad person making 50,000 a year drawing on a computer way to much also?

I agree that 6 figures to too much, but the sad part of it the corporations agree to it. And how many hours are these guys putting in to get 6 figures? Are they sacrificing weekends and pulling two shifts during the week........you dont know!
Theres guys here who make 6 figure earning 15.00 to 18.00 an hour, but they are here 16 hours a day every day when the rest want to stay home for the weekends.
You ever hear of the Gm ever wanting to lower their price on a car?
Nope!
Like Deere, they will get what the market is even if its made over seas for 200.00 bucks you will never see the savings.......ever!

What about consumer electronics the Computer made by IBM in the early 90's cost 1,000 FRN's now it can be had for 1/2 of that and I am not factoring the advanced capability of the new computer or inflation.

It seems that prices never fall in Union production sectors. Now is that a factor in using union wages as an excuse for keeping prices high or a direct result of it, I don't know?

Personally I will always take the one in the hand vice the two in the bush, consequently I rarely have the UAW problem or Boeing Picking up and moving out of Washington or any of the other examples.

One word.............."technology"

[undgrd]

So a non-union cad person making 50,000 a year drawing on a computer way to much also?

I agree that 6 figures to too much, but the sad part of it the corporations agree to it. And how many hours are these guys putting in to get 6 figures? Are they sacrificing weekends and pulling two shifts during the week........you dont know!
Theres guys here who make 6 figure earning 15.00 to 18.00 an hour, but they are here 16 hours a day every day when the rest want to stay home for the weekends.
You ever hear of the Gm ever wanting to lower their price on a car?
Nope!
Like Deere, they will get what the market is even if its made over seas for 200.00 bucks you will never see the savings.......ever!


Why is 6 figures too much? Maybe someone is worth 6 figures because they are talented enough to not need to work double shifts and sacrifice weekends.

If someone quotes you a price to repair something and it only takes them 30 minutes do you feel slighted? Would you feel better if a less qualified person charged the same amount but took 3 times as long? Personally I want the best value. If someone can repair a broken lawnmower engine in 30 minutes vs 90 minutes for the same price, I'm getting good value IMO.

Ahhhhhhhh see the double standard?
A guy earning 20.00 an hour working over time and weekends is an over paid dirt bag while a guy with not much more skill (cad) can sit back and collect 120,000.00 to draw on a computer screen.
I'm ridaculed to no end for being union who does a job that is bid against other union shops and non-union shops.
We union guys are just savages and thugs?
When I was nonunion I saw the books because I closed out the jobs when they were done and it was sickening to see the profit margin the company was making while paying their guys 11 bucks an hour and we paid for our insurance after taxes.
Mean while the do nothing boss (not the owner) kicks around in a 50,000.00 BMW and 350,000.00 house.
Kiss my working white ars.

On a personal note, the union I belong to cant even strike. We work through negotiations until they are met and I've never cornered anyone who was not union and threatened them and never will.


Most of the people I know that use CAD are Engineers...not just some guy drawing stuff. I get your point about the salary difference and hours worked...REALLY I do.

I want the most skilled people working on my projects. I want good value. If the market requires I pay X salary to obtain people for a given skill set, either I do it and complete the job on time, or I don't and run the risk of being over budget due to delays and less skilled labor.

[Ash_Williams]

So a non-union cad person making 50,000 a year drawing on a computer way to much also?


No, if he's not in a union it means someone values his labor at that price. If they could find someone else as good but cheaper, they would. That's free market.


I agree that 6 figures to too much, but the sad part of it the corporations agree to it. And how many hours are these guys putting in to get 6 figures? Are they sacrificing weekends and pulling two shifts during the week........you dont know!
Theres guys here who make 6 figure earning 15.00 to 18.00 an hour, but they are here 16 hours a day every day when the rest want to stay home for the weekends.

In a union, there is no free market. Someone can make 6 figures literally shoving something from one machine to another, lining it up, and hitting some buttons. Not because of overtime, not because of weekend shifts, just because they are in a union and have been there for a few years. In a union, there is no free market price on the labor. It doesn't matter that someone would be thrilled to do a better job at the same work for less money.

There may be such a demand for skilled CAD workers that $50k an year is what you have to pay to hire one. There is no such demand for unskilled labor. There is no reason to pay unskilled labor $30 an hour. There are no shortage of people that would be happy to do that job for $10 an hour.

There was a time when only skilled workers could effectively strike. That's free market... they could strike because they were not easily replaced. Many autoworkers could be easily replaced, same as the guy that sweeps the bus, and the only thing preventing this is labor law.


You ever hear of the Gm ever wanting to lower their price on a car?
Nope!
Like Deere, they will get what the market is even if its made over seas for 200.00 bucks you will never see the savings.......ever!

How can GM lower a price on the car when they are already losing money on each one? You can't sell at a loss and make it up by volume!

Other things have become much cheaper because of overseas labor. Clothing, tools, some building supplies (ie laminate flooring). They lowered prices to stay competitive. Notice the automakers that didn't fail pay americans about half as much as the ones that did? And really, there is nothing wrong at all with getting $15 an hour for unskilled work.

[Uncle Salty]

Without unions we would be working sixty hours per week for a third of our wages.

Yes unions have been detrimental in some respects, but the industrialists were horrible to work for.

Unions set safety standards, work hours, child labor laws, got rid of abusive employers, etc... They were a much needed balance to the robber baron class.

Just look to third world work conditions without unions. That is the alternative.

[Gknowmx]

Without unions we would be working sixty hours per week for a third of our wages.

Yes unions have been detrimental in some respects, but the industrialists were horrible to work for.

Unions set safety standards, work hours, child labor laws, got rid of abusive employers, etc... They were a much needed balance to the robber baron class.

Just look to third world work conditions without unions. That is the alternative.


Well, if Unions are so great, why do third-world people wait to create them? Why don't all 1.3 million Haitians living in tents simply unionize and cut out the entreprenuers, capitalist, and industrialists? You know the secret, head down to Haiti and Unionize it. That ought to solve all their problems. We need a good solid modern day oceanianic cargo cult.

[Ares]

Without unions we would be working sixty hours per week for a third of our wages.

Yes unions have been detrimental in some respects, but the industrialists were horrible to work for.

Unions set safety standards, work hours, child labor laws, got rid of abusive employers, etc... They were a much needed balance to the robber baron class.

Just look to third world work conditions without unions. That is the alternative.


That they did, but like everything else greed festered its way into the lexicon and now Unions are just as greedy as the corporations they work for.


That's the point the entire system is corrupt beyond repair. Unions are NO EXCEPTION. Because they gave us what we have (40 hour work weeks, better working conditions etc. etc.) doesn't mean we owe blind allegiance to a union. Especially ones that get violent when you don't tow their line or cross their picket line because you have bills to pay.

Like I've said, they had their purpose, they served it. But I owe no allegiance to them for that service. When a Union pension goes bust (as most of them are likely to do) they are going to ask the taxpayers to bail them out. GM, Chrysler, air liners, even state employees unions as recent examples show.

Union employees will have to suffer just like the rest of poor non union non organized peasants.

[Neuro]

Without unions we would be working sixty hours per week for a third of our wages.

Yes unions have been detrimental in some respects, but the industrialists were horrible to work for.

Unions set safety standards, work hours, child labor laws, got rid of abusive employers, etc... They were a much needed balance to the robber baron class.

Just look to third world work conditions without unions. That is the alternative.

I disagree, not unions but industrialists, have been responsible for improving working conditions through implementation of automation, reducing the need for mundane, heavy and boring labor... Unfortunately the industrialist is a dying breed, replaced by a greedy globalist who sells off the employees, to an asian country, where they do things the old fashioned way... Obviously with the aid of the union who can't accept that the worker gets only 50 times what they get in India China Viet Nam instead of 100 times...

[7th trump]

So a non-union cad person making 50,000 a year drawing on a computer way to much also?


No, if he's not in a union it means someone values his labor at that price. If they could find someone else as good but cheaper, they would. That's free market.


I agree that 6 figures to too much, but the sad part of it the corporations agree to it. And how many hours are these guys putting in to get 6 figures? Are they sacrificing weekends and pulling two shifts during the week........you dont know!
Theres guys here who make 6 figure earning 15.00 to 18.00 an hour, but they are here 16 hours a day every day when the rest want to stay home for the weekends.

In a union, there is no free market. Someone can make 6 figures literally shoving something from one machine to another, lining it up, and hitting some buttons. Not because of overtime, not because of weekend shifts, just because they are in a union and have been there for a few years. In a union, there is no free market price on the labor. It doesn't matter that someone would be thrilled to do a better job at the same work for less money.

There may be such a demand for skilled CAD workers that $50k an year is what you have to pay to hire one. There is no such demand for unskilled labor. There is no reason to pay unskilled labor $30 an hour. There are no shortage of people that would be happy to do that job for $10 an hour.

There was a time when only skilled workers could effectively strike. That's free market... they could strike because they were not easily replaced. Many autoworkers could be easily replaced, same as the guy that sweeps the bus, and the only thing preventing this is labor law.


You ever hear of the Gm ever wanting to lower their price on a car?
Nope!
Like Deere, they will get what the market is even if its made over seas for 200.00 bucks you will never see the savings.......ever!

How can GM lower a price on the car when they are already losing money on each one? You can't sell at a loss and make it up by volume!

Other things have become much cheaper because of overseas labor. Clothing, tools, some building supplies (ie laminate flooring). They lowered prices to stay competitive. Notice the automakers that didn't fail pay americans about half as much as the ones that did? And really, there is nothing wrong at all with getting $15 an hour for unskilled work.

You tell me where someone can literally make 6 figures just hitting a button?
I'd like to know where if it actually existed without over time and working week ends.

Also, just how long does it take a car from the ground up to roll off the line. Hundreds of cars a day roll out in 8 hours. 200 divided by eight hour is what?
It doesnt take weeks for one car to be on an assembly line raking up the cost to build it.
Remember Ford and his assembly line idea where now Ford could make a good car and the workers were paid a decent wage.
Gm is losing money because theres no jobs to support buying them. The federal government allowed the foreign car to be sold here while the tarrifs on American cars going to foreign countries sky rocketed.
America is being dismantled of its industrial base for the new world order and corporate America like the government has allowed it because America has been infiltrated and all you can say is its the unions fault.
Hahaha.................I'm not stupid pal

[7th trump]

Without unions we would be working sixty hours per week for a third of our wages.

Yes unions have been detrimental in some respects, but the industrialists were horrible to work for.

Unions set safety standards, work hours, child labor laws, got rid of abusive employers, etc... They were a much needed balance to the robber baron class.

Just look to third world work conditions without unions. That is the alternative.

I disagree, not unions but industrialists, have been responsible for improving working conditions through implementation of automation, reducing the need for mundane, heavy and boring labor... Unfortunately the industrialist is a dying breed, replaced by a greedy globalist who sells off the employees, to an asian country, where they do things the old fashioned way... Obviously with the aid of the union who can't accept that the worker gets only 50 times what they get in India China Viet Nam instead of 100 times...

Bullshyt,
The IBEW is the oldest union in America and its the union shops who came up and improve the electrical code not any industrialist. Industriaslist are just that.............industrialist.
The IBEW was formed because of the working conditions and deaths that took place wiring the railroads back in the late 1800's.
Beleive me, John Deere puts safety standards behind production when it comes to wiring their plant. You should see what the non unions shops do. Wiring the wrong color code for the wrong phase which coincidentally damn nbear fried a guy.
I've personally seen 277vac live just hanging out of conduit so the next can accidentaly touch it and fall 40 to the ground if hes not strapped. You ought to see the wiring on some of the robot welders..................total mess that now needs rewiring.

[Neuro]

Remember Ford and his assembly line idea where now Ford could make a good car and the workers were paid a decent wage.
He was an industrialist, and I don't think he decided to pay his workers a decent wage because of any union. He payed them a good wage, so that they could be able to buy a car that they built, apart from just surviving. I am sure he got the best workers he could wish for through this policy of his. Which is quite different from the unionized workers today, who decides that they are not going to work at all, because they are entitled to more, further thye will block any one else who is prepared to work at the plant for a decent wage!

[Neuro]

Without unions we would be working sixty hours per week for a third of our wages.

Yes unions have been detrimental in some respects, but the industrialists were horrible to work for.

Unions set safety standards, work hours, child labor laws, got rid of abusive employers, etc... They were a much needed balance to the robber baron class.

Just look to third world work conditions without unions. That is the alternative.

I disagree, not unions but industrialists, have been responsible for improving working conditions through implementation of automation, reducing the need for mundane, heavy and boring labor... Unfortunately the industrialist is a dying breed, replaced by a greedy globalist who sells off the employees, to an asian country, where they do things the old fashioned way... Obviously with the aid of the union who can't accept that the worker gets only 50 times what they get in India China Viet Nam instead of 100 times...

Bullshyt,
The IBEW is the oldest union in America and its the union shops who came up and improve the electrical code not any industrialist. Industriaslist are just that.............industrialist.
The IBEW was formed because of the working conditions and deaths that took place wiring the railroads back in the late 1800's.
Beleive me, John Deere puts safety standards behind production when it comes to wiring their plant. You should see what the non unions shops do. Wiring the wrong color code for the wrong phase which coincidentally damn nbear fried a guy.
I've personally seen 277vac live just hanging out of conduit so the next can accidentaly touch it and fall 40 to the ground if hes not strapped. You ought to see the wiring on some of the robot welders..................total mess that now needs rewiring.
I am sure your non-union anecdotal evidence can be countered by 100 times of union evidence where they have blocked progression, because they were afraid that they would lose jobs...

[7th trump]

Remember Ford and his assembly line idea where now Ford could make a good car and the workers were paid a decent wage.
He was an industrialist, and I don't think he decided to pay his workers a decent wage because of any union. He payed them a good wage, so that they could be able to buy a car that they built, apart from just surviving. I am sure he got the best workers he could wish for through this policy of his. Which is quite different from the unionized workers today, who decides that they are not going to work at all, because they are entitled to more, further thye will block any one else who is prepared to work at the plant for a decent wage!

Pure speculation on your part...........
Yea Ford was an industrialist and ford just like all those in those early days knew nothing about poor working conditions and long hours with children working along side in steel mills.
Look at your asbestos factories in that same time frame?
I dont know why you cannot stay on subject without going off into left field.

[Uncle Salty]

Without unions we would be working sixty hours per week for a third of our wages.

Yes unions have been detrimental in some respects, but the industrialists were horrible to work for.

Unions set safety standards, work hours, child labor laws, got rid of abusive employers, etc... They were a much needed balance to the robber baron class.

Just look to third world work conditions without unions. That is the alternative.

I disagree, not unions but industrialists, have been responsible for improving working conditions through implementation of automation, reducing the need for mundane, heavy and boring labor... Unfortunately the industrialist is a dying breed, replaced by a greedy globalist who sells off the employees, to an asian country, where they do things the old fashioned way... Obviously with the aid of the union who can't accept that the worker gets only 50 times what they get in India China Viet Nam instead of 100 times...


Read the Jungle by Upton Sinclair and tell me how wonderful the industrialists were. They only changed because the unions forced them to.

[7th trump]

Without unions we would be working sixty hours per week for a third of our wages.

Yes unions have been detrimental in some respects, but the industrialists were horrible to work for.

Unions set safety standards, work hours, child labor laws, got rid of abusive employers, etc... They were a much needed balance to the robber baron class.

Just look to third world work conditions without unions. That is the alternative.

I disagree, not unions but industrialists, have been responsible for improving working conditions through implementation of automation, reducing the need for mundane, heavy and boring labor... Unfortunately the industrialist is a dying breed, replaced by a greedy globalist who sells off the employees, to an asian country, where they do things the old fashioned way... Obviously with the aid of the union who can't accept that the worker gets only 50 times what they get in India China Viet Nam instead of 100 times...

Bullshyt,
The IBEW is the oldest union in America and its the union shops who came up and improve the electrical code not any industrialist. Industriaslist are just that.............industrialist.
The IBEW was formed because of the working conditions and deaths that took place wiring the railroads back in the late 1800's.
Beleive me, John Deere puts safety standards behind production when it comes to wiring their plant. You should see what the non unions shops do. Wiring the wrong color code for the wrong phase which coincidentally damn nbear fried a guy.
I've personally seen 277vac live just hanging out of conduit so the next can accidentaly touch it and fall 40 to the ground if hes not strapped. You ought to see the wiring on some of the robot welders..................total mess that now needs rewiring.
I am sure your non-union anecdotal evidence can be countered by 100 times of union evidence where they have blocked progression, because they were afraid that they would lose jobs...

Where has the IBEW blocked progression?
If it wasnt for the IBEW I very much beleive the electrical safety standards would be third world.
Russia and chernoble come to mind.

[7th trump]

remember all those women that died in that clothing factory back along the turn of the century?
A union was formed to set standards so that wouldnt happen again.

[Posse Comitatus]

Hats off to the UAW.

Stick it to those elite bastards.

[drafter]

CAD is a little more involved than just drawing pictures. I was a CADD Draftsman without a college degree making near 70k which was pretty good for a non-metropoliton area. I could have made more in one of the larger cities. Not the most complicated job in the world but definitely more skilled than some union monkey putting lugnuts on a wheel all day long.

After 20 years I came to hate it though, so left to start my own business.

[bonaparte]

Not every union worker is making a killing. I'm a worker in a union. I'm also a chemist making 74,000/year. If I had to vote on taking a 48% pay cut I would vote no in a second. But then again I can either get a new job as a chemist, or just do my own thing and easily make decent money (probably not 74,000, but at least 50,000 until I get myself up and running agian). For some of the non-educated people in my union (who do other jobs than being a chemist), they would have to take the pay cut because they really are nothing more than specialized general laborers. It is crazy that they make as much as those who went to school in the hard sciences. Not complaining, just saying.

Seriously, though, those guys who make cars don't know how good they have it monetarily. I couldn't do thier job because I would die of the boardom, but even $50,000 for general labor is too much.

These situations will/are fixing themselves.

[BarneyFag]

I was IBEW out of Northern Indiana, it's been awhile, but I believe they started the Low Voltage Apprenticeship while I was an Apprentice and they only had a 2 year program. I think most guys going into LV couldn't get into the inside wireman program, so that was a way in to the union. The guy's or ladies, who couldn't hadle the Inside wireman, were dropped to the low voltage Apprenticeship.

From my 15 plus years in the trades, Indiana has damn good Union Electricians, the kind of things we would do would piss your pants and there was always a guy available who could do anything you needed. I personally never ran 1 LV cable in 10 years, but after I went non-union, I trained myself and started doing it on for my Business.

The Union Electricians were pretty brainwashed politic wise, they really only gave a fuck about #1, hated the owners of the companies, but hard fing workers. Apprenticeship was sometimes worse than the military, the way you could get treated. But you learn to be a hard ass, like them.

Towards the end of my apprenticeship, I started questioning some benefit/billing issues. Which employers were paying out over 1.5 million a year in fees, that were literally going to some corporations pocket. But nobody would listen to me, nobody cared and they literally threatened me, so I gave caring about these idiots.

[Neuro]

Remember Ford and his assembly line idea where now Ford could make a good car and the workers were paid a decent wage.
He was an industrialist, and I don't think he decided to pay his workers a decent wage because of any union. He payed them a good wage, so that they could be able to buy a car that they built, apart from just surviving. I am sure he got the best workers he could wish for through this policy of his. Which is quite different from the unionized workers today, who decides that they are not going to work at all, because they are entitled to more, further thye will block any one else who is prepared to work at the plant for a decent wage!

Pure speculation on your part...........
Yea Ford was an industrialist and ford just like all those in those early days knew nothing about poor working conditions and long hours with children working along side in steel mills.
Look at your asbestos factories in that same time frame?
I dont know why you cannot stay on subject without going off into left field.

oh I am sorry I didn't know the subject was your delusions. You brought up Ford and now since I showed you contradicted yourself re industrialists. I am out in the left field? Interesting logic there! I guess that kind of logic is a necessity to believe in union mythology about the slavedriving evil grubby hand no good greedy industrialist.

[mick silver]

voting to close a plant down ........................ what the hell are they thinking

[Ash_Williams]

Gm is losing money because theres no jobs to support buying them. The federal government allowed the foreign car to be sold here while the tarrifs on American cars going to foreign countries sky rocketed.

America is being dismantled of its industrial base for the new world order and corporate America like the government has allowed it because America has been infiltrated and all you can say is its the unions fault.
Hahaha.................I'm not stupid pal

GM had zero problems with sales when their money problems got critical. They had the best selling vehicle in the world, and were selling the highest number of vehicles in the world. But, they were losing an average of $1500 or so on each car sold. It does no good to have great sales numbers when each sale represents a loss!

As I remember labor input into a car was about 10%, so $2000 for a typical 20k car. At the same time, GM's cost to keep the union pension and health plan going was about the same! If both those costs were halved (say, the way Toyota, VW, BMW, Honda, and all the other foreign automakers do things in America) then GM could have made a profit on each car.

And six figures for pushing stuff around and pressing buttons? That's what they got up in Oshawa at the GM plant before this shitstorm hit. I know a guy who did it. He worked there for half his life and at the end was up over 100k doing less work than a burger flipper. Then they gave him the kind of retirement package I thought only bankers and politicians were able to swing.

[7th trump]

Remember Ford and his assembly line idea where now Ford could make a good car and the workers were paid a decent wage.
He was an industrialist, and I don't think he decided to pay his workers a decent wage because of any union. He payed them a good wage, so that they could be able to buy a car that they built, apart from just surviving. I am sure he got the best workers he could wish for through this policy of his. Which is quite different from the unionized workers today, who decides that they are not going to work at all, because they are entitled to more, further thye will block any one else who is prepared to work at the plant for a decent wage!

Pure speculation on your part...........
Yea Ford was an industrialist and ford just like all those in those early days knew nothing about poor working conditions and long hours with children working along side in steel mills.
Look at your asbestos factories in that same time frame?
I dont know why you cannot stay on subject without going off into left field.

oh I am sorry I didn't know the subject was your delusions. You brought up Ford and now since I showed you contradicted yourself re industrialists. I am out in the left field? Interesting logic there! I guess that kind of logic is a necessity to believe in union mythology about the slavedriving evil grubby hand no good greedy industrialist.

You didnt prove anything in your post about industrialist looking out for their workers.
Fact is others stepped in showed you your delusion to think the turn of the century industrialist were out for the worker.
My point of Ford was he came up with the assembly line that helped workers earn more than they ever did, but Ford wasnt out looking for their safety............woosh right over your head!
If you werent so bent set on trying to prove your biased point instead of looking at the facts you maybe would have stayed on topic.
Delusions?....................naa just trying to show you that you dont think far enough past your selfish nose to see where the problem lies.

[Awoke]

I am very pro-union.

Unions are a unification of workers that the NWO globalists HATE with all their hearts. The PTB have been tearing unions apart unrelentingly. John Coleman covers the PTB vehicles for this purpose extensively in "The Committee of 300".

Union workers have power because they are banded together. These jew-owned corporations are turning profits upon profits at the worst of times, an because of union workers, the non-union workers can ride in on their coat tails. The de-industrialization of North American is in full swing, and the jew-owned media wants you people to think that Unions are the source of all evil, and that these "Greedy union bastards" are "demanding un-sustainable and unrealistic wages", when in reality Unions elevate and uphold standards of living for all society.

Don't fall for it. Because of Unions, Ceritified skilled trades journeymen can make upswards of 20-50 dollars an hour, working non-union jobs. Without unions in the picture, you would be seeing Carpenters, Welders, Electricians, Pipe fitters etc all making $10 an hour.

If you're anti-union, you should reconsider. The jews want you to hate unions. Unions give you power and safe working conditions, and some financial security. Even with union jobs, oftentimes, couples are forced to work a second job just to maintain standards of living. Whose fault would that be? The workers? I think not.

They were formed for a reason. Protection. Trust me when I say you DO NOT want working conditions to revert back to the ways they were in the pre-union days. You have unions to thank for your safe working conditions today NO MATTER WHERE YOU WORK OR WHAT YOUR JOB IS. NONE of that would be there for you if it were not for Unions.

Viva de Unions! (I son't know spanish, just screwing around here...)

[chad]

i used to pretty anti-union, but anymore, i do not know.

after reading this thread, i talked to my brother in law, who is a line-man. he echoed the sentiments of many in this thread. as he is not a dumbass, i am inclined to believe him and more of what is posted here.

i am still having problems reconciling my personal experiences with them, however.

[Book]

If you're anti-union, you should reconsider. The jews want you to hate unions. Unions give you power and safe working conditions, and some financial security.

http://www.aswakegypt.com/cities/dbpics/cities/image/All_Gizah_Pyramids.jpg

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/egyptians/images/great_pyramid_block.jpg

Workers without unions are nothing more than kosher slaves.

[crazychicken]

One of our companies does maritime work in NY harbor.

We have contracts with the Operating Engineers and the longshoremen.

You call for people you get good people who want to do the job. They know what they are doing and you don't have to hold their hands.

You have a problem with someone and the shop steward can't fix it you call the BA and he solves the problem---RIGHT NOW!

In the envelope money is good. Total package is outstanding!

They get the work done, they get their money. They go away. Everyone wins.

You get what you pay for and they are worth every damn penny they get.

I have absolutely no regrets having those contracts with those unions.

CC

[crazychicken]

The "low voltage" comments reminded me of our time in the eastern block-'94 and '95.

Lech Walensa was the President of Poland. He was the driving force in the downfall of communism in Poland. He was an electrician in the shipyards, I think in Gdansk.

But the joke among his detractors was "HE was an electrician--but LOW VOLTAGE only".

CC




I was IBEW out of Northern Indiana, it's been awhile, but I believe they started the Low Voltage Apprenticeship while I was an Apprentice and they only had a 2 year program. I think most guys going into LV couldn't get into the inside wireman program, so that was a way in to the union. The guy's or ladies, who couldn't hadle the Inside wireman, were dropped to the low voltage Apprenticeship.

From my 15 plus years in the trades, Indiana has damn good Union Electricians, the kind of things we would do would piss your pants and there was always a guy available who could do anything you needed. I personally never ran 1 LV cable in 10 years, but after I went non-union, I trained myself and started doing it on for my Business.

The Union Electricians were pretty brainwashed politic wise, they really only gave a f*ck about #1, hated the owners of the companies, but hard fing workers. Apprenticeship was sometimes worse than the military, the way you could get treated. But you learn to be a hard ass, like them.

Towards the end of my apprenticeship, I started questioning some benefit/billing issues. Which employers were paying out over 1.5 million a year in fees, that were literally going to some corporations pocket. But nobody would listen to me, nobody cared and they literally threatened me, so I gave caring about these idiots.

[7th trump]

A lot of anti union people dont realize that we union people pay for our own training and stay up to date out of our own pockets.
We are certified to administer CPR
We are retrained in 10 and 40 hour OSHA when the time comes up to.
We get cross training in classifications in classes that have empty chairs (IBEW anyway).
We can be and are certified welders. (just received my certification for 1/2 inch overhead and verticle for a measley $100)

[Gknowmx]

voting to close a plant down ........................ what the hell are they thinking


yep, by this logic, the pro-unioners in this thread should teach us non-unioners a lesson by showing us who is boss and voting to delete their own GSUS accounts. Go ahead, call my bluff. ;D

[7th trump]

The "low voltage" comments reminded me of our time in the eastern block-'94 and '95.

Lech Walensa was the President of Poland. He was the driving force in the downfall of communism in Poland. He was an electrician in the shipyards, I think in Gdansk.

But the joke among his detractors was "HE was an electrician--but LOW VOLTAGE only".

CC




I was IBEW out of Northern Indiana, it's been awhile, but I believe they started the Low Voltage Apprenticeship while I was an Apprentice and they only had a 2 year program. I think most guys going into LV couldn't get into the inside wireman program, so that was a way in to the union. The guy's or ladies, who couldn't hadle the Inside wireman, were dropped to the low voltage Apprenticeship.

From my 15 plus years in the trades, Indiana has damn good Union Electricians, the kind of things we would do would piss your pants and there was always a guy available who could do anything you needed. I personally never ran 1 LV cable in 10 years, but after I went non-union, I trained myself and started doing it on for my Business.

The Union Electricians were pretty brainwashed politic wise, they really only gave a f*ck about #1, hated the owners of the companies, but hard fing workers. Apprenticeship was sometimes worse than the military, the way you could get treated. But you learn to be a hard ass, like them.

Towards the end of my apprenticeship, I started questioning some benefit/billing issues. Which employers were paying out over 1.5 million a year in fees, that were literally going to some corporations pocket. But nobody would listen to me, nobody cared and they literally threatened me, so I gave caring about these idiots.


I dont mind the low voltage classification.
It pays decent and theres only two on the books and they are taking time off. Plenty of low voltage work to go around for at least two years as it stands right now.
RI Arsenal I heard told the contracter to stop bidding work as he has all he can handle.
Not so for the journeyman inside wireman. 250 on book 1 and who knows how many are staying at home for the contracters. Last I heard it was atleast a year before those on the books went to work.

[7th trump]

The "low voltage" comments reminded me of our time in the eastern block-'94 and '95.

Lech Walensa was the President of Poland. He was the driving force in the downfall of communism in Poland. He was an electrician in the shipyards, I think in Gdansk.

But the joke among his detractors was "HE was an electrician--but LOW VOLTAGE only".

CC




I was IBEW out of Northern Indiana, it's been awhile, but I believe they started the Low Voltage Apprenticeship while I was an Apprentice and they only had a 2 year program. I think most guys going into LV couldn't get into the inside wireman program, so that was a way in to the union. The guy's or ladies, who couldn't hadle the Inside wireman, were dropped to the low voltage Apprenticeship.

From my 15 plus years in the trades, Indiana has damn good Union Electricians, the kind of things we would do would piss your pants and there was always a guy available who could do anything you needed. I personally never ran 1 LV cable in 10 years, but after I went non-union, I trained myself and started doing it on for my Business.

The Union Electricians were pretty brainwashed politic wise, they really only gave a f*ck about #1, hated the owners of the companies, but hard fing workers. Apprenticeship was sometimes worse than the military, the way you could get treated. But you learn to be a hard ass, like them.

Towards the end of my apprenticeship, I started questioning some benefit/billing issues. Which employers were paying out over 1.5 million a year in fees, that were literally going to some corporations pocket. But nobody would listen to me, nobody cared and they literally threatened me, so I gave caring about these idiots.

We had him personally visit our local back a few years ago. Gave a speach, I didnt go though. Wish I did.

[7th trump]

voting to close a plant down ........................ what the hell are they thinking


yep, by this logic, the pro-unioners in this thread should teach us non-unioners a lesson by showing us who is boss and voting to delete their own GSUS accounts. Go ahead, call my bluff. ;D



They are calling a bluff.

[Ash_Williams]

Don't fall for it. Because of Unions, Ceritified skilled trades journeymen can make upswards of 20-50 dollars an hour, working non-union jobs. Without unions in the picture, you would be seeing Carpenters, Welders, Electricians, Pipe fitters etc all making $10 an hour.

Sure, but then we have unions mixed up with labor laws.

The electricians can form a union and argue for higher wages because if I want something wired (and I can't do it myself) then I need someone with skills in wiring. I can't just go to the temp agency and tell them to send over some dropout who will do my wiring job for $10.

So if the electricians all agree not to work for under $30 an hour, that is totally fine with me. That's a union that makes sense. It involves zero government coercion for or against anyone.

Now, the garbage men can form a union and argue for higher wages too, but the problem is that if I want someone to throw a bag of garbage into a truck, I *can* just go hire a dropout for $10. So if all the garbageman decided they wanted $30 an hour, we'd just laugh.

...Except we can't, because of government coercion and labor law. There is absolutely no reason that striking garbageman can't be replaced except for labor law.

And the city pays the garbageman, so all the people who actually work hard for maybe $12 an hour get to pay higher property taxes or higher rents so that the garbage man can make $30. And they can't ever go and say "hey, I'd love to do that job, and I'd be happy with $20", all they can do is work a little harder so that others who were lucky enough to land the union gig can ride the gravy train.

[Ash_Williams]

A lot of anti union people dont realize that we union people pay for our own training and stay up to date out of our own pockets.
We are certified to administer CPR
We are retrained in 10 and 40 hour OSHA when the time comes up to.
We get cross training in classifications in classes that have empty chairs (IBEW anyway).
We can be and are certified welders. (just received my certification for 1/2 inch overhead and verticle for a measley $100)

Big difference between trained and skilled workers and unskilled.
You took courses, have experience, are doing something nontrivial. That means you don't need labor law because you can refuse to work along with other people with you skill set and employers have little alternative but to negotiate (or pay to have new people trained and wait years for it to happen.)

The guy sweeping the bus is a different story. Anyone can sweep a bus. They have no negotiating power and they deserve none. If they want some control over their lives they need to have something to offer.

[Ponce]

7th? booooooooo boooooooooooo booooooooo, to become a machinest I had to go to school for 60 days and paid my own way..........

[Awoke]

Don't fall for it. Because of Unions, Ceritified skilled trades journeymen can make upswards of 20-50 dollars an hour, working non-union jobs. Without unions in the picture, you would be seeing Carpenters, Welders, Electricians, Pipe fitters etc all making $10 an hour.

Sure, but then we have unions mixed up with labor laws.

The electricians can form a union and argue for higher wages because if I want something wired (and I can't do it myself) then I need someone with skills in wiring. I can't just go to the temp agency and tell them to send over some dropout who will do my wiring job for $10.


Why the hell should anyone in a skilled trade work for $10?

And by the way, as a home owner, you can do any electrical work in your house that you want. You can buy your own permits if required. The work just has to pass code inspections in the end.




So if the electricians all agree not to work for under $30 an hour, that is totally fine with me. That's a union that makes sense. It involves zero government coercion for or against anyone.

Now, the garbage men can form a union and argue for higher wages too, but the problem is that if I want someone to throw a bag of garbage into a truck, I *can* just go hire a dropout for $10. So if all the garbageman decided they wanted $30 an hour, we'd just laugh.

...Except we can't, because of government coercion and labor law. There is absolutely no reason that striking garbageman can't be replaced except for labor law.

And the city pays the garbageman, so all the people who actually work hard for maybe $12 an hour get to pay higher property taxes or higher rents so that the garbage man can make $30. And they can't ever go and say "hey, I'd love to do that job, and I'd be happy with $20", all they can do is work a little harder so that others who were lucky enough to land the union gig can ride the gravy train.


I hear you, and I agree. The system is not perfect, however I am a believer in that "You make your own bed".
If these guys out there made the sacrifices required to get a skilled trade, they wouldn't be stuck making 10 or 12 an hour. Alot of times you will see that the "Low-rollers" are essentially lazy-asses that aren't willing to commit to bettering themselves. How many middle aged adults do you see working at Wal-Mart or Tim Hortons? Tons. By choice.

I think we can all agree that the Government has its fingers in A LOT of areas it shouldn't.

But no matter which way you slice it, that Union is protecting the living standard for those garbage-men.

[7th trump]

I'm union teledata local 145 Rock Island Ill.
I know all about what you are saying about an electrician doing a teledata job. Thats why the IBEW has started a teledata classification to stop the bullshyt and keep in competition with the non-union ma and pa shops.
Substandard work?

I never said your work was substandard, but my experience with 3 unionized outfits in my area (Northern Indiana) during early 2000's was what I was basing that argument off of.

If the IBEW has just now started implementing teledata classifications they are extremely behind the times. I had my A+ cert (if you can tie your shoes you can get one of those) Network+, CCNA and my MCP by the time I was 22 back in 2000. I've let my CCNA lapse as you really don't need it to be a wire monkey and I needed experience so I started at a consulting outfit (not a mom and pop shop by any stretch of the imagination.) Where they would design implement, and install networks, equipment and configuration and even custom application building depending on what the client wanted.

No one is going to pay a union guy 30-40 bucks an hour to pull a wire and that's all they can offer.

Until the IBEW can go through the application of designing a network (It's not just pulling cable) they won't be able to compete with "non-union" specialized outfits. I'm talking from design, to implementation of the network and data storage facilities.



I went for my CCNA but as technology advances that field that I knew was eventually going to be outsourced to India as cad and engineering in cad is being outsourced to India.
Ask Deere about their IT department. They are not hiring employees to replace the retiring Deere IT department. They are outsourcing IT to small shops and last I heard (6 months ago) from one of these CCNA/network small shop guys is that Deere is outsourcing that work to India.
They already do it with their CNC lasers that cut out parts. People in India load file and control the lasers from India. People in the plant just over watch the laser so when a problem arises theres someone there to quickly fix it.
Technology is great, but you cannot outsource wiring. Network administrator work can be done from home via the internet or across the globe......like India.

[Gknowmx]

voting to close a plant down ........................ what the hell are they thinking


yep, by this logic, the pro-unioners in this thread should teach us non-unioners a lesson by showing us who is boss and voting to delete their own GSUS accounts. Go ahead, call my bluff. ;D



They are calling a bluff.


What bluff? GM is shutting it down. Did GM bluff when it shut down the other plants? How did that work out for union folks? Point to an example where ‘calling a bluff’ kept a GM plant open once it was slated for shutdown AND the union gave no concessions. This would be the shining example that I would have expected you to point to immediately. The union is not negotiating with GM, but another company that was willing to step in and save the plant IF the union agreed to concessions.

I will be sure to bookmark this thread; it will be a classic if GSUS ever decides to look back and do a forensic analysis of the failed philosophy of unions.

It has also come as an unexpectedly delicious litmus test of where various members of GSUS fall with respect to personal freedom, liberty, and responsibilities.

[Awoke]

Without unions we would be working sixty hours per week for a third of our wages.

Yes unions have been detrimental in some respects, but the industrialists were horrible to work for.

Unions set safety standards, work hours, child labor laws, got rid of abusive employers, etc... They were a much needed balance to the robber baron class.

Just look to third world work conditions without unions. That is the alternative.


Well, if Unions are so great, why do third-world people wait to create them? Why don't all 1.3 million Haitians living in tents simply unionize and cut out the entreprenuers, capitalist, and industrialists? You know the secret, head down to Haiti and Unionize it. That ought to solve all their problems. We need a good solid modern day oceanianic cargo cult.


You need to read the book by Dr. John Coleman called "Nuclear Power: Anathema to the New World Order".

Then you will understand why unions are not allowed to form in 3rd work countries. It is a portion of the global conspiracy.

Then read the Committee of 300 to see how many societies, committees, agencies and organizations the PTB have created in order to de-industrialize North America and plunge the entire continent into a feudal society of surfs VS masters.

The information is out there.

[Gknowmx]

Without unions we would be working sixty hours per week for a third of our wages.

Yes unions have been detrimental in some respects, but the industrialists were horrible to work for.

Unions set safety standards, work hours, child labor laws, got rid of abusive employers, etc... They were a much needed balance to the robber baron class.

Just look to third world work conditions without unions. That is the alternative.


Well, if Unions are so great, why do third-world people wait to create them? Why don't all 1.3 million Haitians living in tents simply unionize and cut out the entreprenuers, capitalist, and industrialists? You know the secret, head down to Haiti and Unionize it. That ought to solve all their problems. We need a good solid modern day oceanianic cargo cult.


You need to read the book by Dr. John Coleman called "Nuclear Power: Anathema to the New World Order".

Then you will understand why unions are not allowed to form in 3rd work countries. It is a portion of the global conspiracy.

Then read the Committee of 300 to see how many societies, committees, agencies and organizations the PTB have created in order to de-industrialize North America and plunge the entire continent into a feudal society of surfs VS masters.

The information is out there.



So then you admit unions are controlled opposition. How does that feel?

[Ares]

Ask Deere about their IT department. They are not hiring employees to replace the retiring Deere IT department. They are outsourcing IT to small shops and last I heard (6 months ago) from one of these CCNA/network small shop guys is that Deere is outsourcing that work to India.
They already do it with their CNC lasers that cut out parts. People in India load file and control the lasers from India. People in the plant just over watch the laser so when a problem arises theres someone there to quickly fix it.
Technology is great, but you cannot outsource wiring. Network administrator work can be done from home via the internet or across the globe......like India.

Yep I've lost jobs due to outsourcing but there is one thing they cannot do over the network or in India due to distance. If the Cisco IOS goes bad (rare) Hang (not so rare with a switch / router that's left on for years at a time) who's going to re-apply the update or if the IOS has become corrupted you need to be there physically to re-install the IOS over the serial interface.

But you are correct that outsourcing severely limits the number of people you need on staff. If at all depending on the situation.

[Awoke]

Without unions we would be working sixty hours per week for a third of our wages.

Yes unions have been detrimental in some respects, but the industrialists were horrible to work for.

Unions set safety standards, work hours, child labor laws, got rid of abusive employers, etc... They were a much needed balance to the robber baron class.

Just look to third world work conditions without unions. That is the alternative.


Well, if Unions are so great, why do third-world people wait to create them? Why don't all 1.3 million Haitians living in tents simply unionize and cut out the entreprenuers, capitalist, and industrialists? You know the secret, head down to Haiti and Unionize it. That ought to solve all their problems. We need a good solid modern day oceanianic cargo cult.


You need to read the book by Dr. John Coleman called "Nuclear Power: Anathema to the New World Order".

Then you will understand why unions are not allowed to form in 3rd work countries. It is a portion of the global conspiracy.

Then read the Committee of 300 to see how many societies, committees, agencies and organizations the PTB have created in order to de-industrialize North America and plunge the entire continent into a feudal society of surfs VS masters.

The information is out there.



So then you admit unions are controlled opposition. How does that feel?


Haha, nice try. Are you and Percival pen-pals?

Like every organized institution, unions have been corrupted from the inside by the conpirators. The mass-membership has good intentions however, and you can thank Unions for every safe job you have ever worked.

3rd world countries are stopped from industry intentionally by TPTB, in order to ensure they are locked in place and not allowed to prosper. There is no blue collar in the the 3rd world. Only starving subjects, which is exactly what you will one day be, if the conspirators have it their way.

Nice try on twisting my statements out of context though. Jew.

[Ash_Williams]

Why the hell should anyone in a skilled trade work for $10?

And by the way, as a home owner, you can do any electrical work in your house that you want. You can buy your own permits if required. The work just has to pass code inspections in the end.

In the skill trades they don't... that was my point. Their skills give them negotiating power because if all the electricians refuse to work, that's a problem for most people that need wiring done. (I actually do my own wiring but most people don't and don't want to.)



I hear you, and I agree. The system is not perfect, however I am a believer in that "You make your own bed".
If these guys out there made the sacrifices required to get a skilled trade, they wouldn't be stuck making 10 or 12 an hour. Alot of times you will see that the "Low-rollers" are essentially lazy-asses that aren't willing to commit to bettering themselves. How many middle aged adults do you see working at Wal-Mart or Tim Hortons? Tons. By choice.

Exactly. If you have real skills you don't need labor law.


But no matter which way you slice it, that Union is protecting the living standard for those garbage-men.

At the expense of the living standard of everyone else that wasn't lucky (connected) enough to get a city job leisurely throwing bags of trash into a truck!

If you remember there was a toronto garbageman strike in the summer of 2001 or 2002... these guys were getting $24 an hour + crazy benefits as I remember and it wasn't enough for them. That summer I was busting my ass doing 15 hour days of hard labor for $12 an hour, no sick days, no frigging dental plan, nothing, just paying more taxes so those entitled bastards could have another raise. That's something I'll never forget.

If I were a garbageman I wouldn't have the gall to go to my neighbor and tell him he should pay more taxes, because I deserve $30 an hour for throwing bags into a truck to go with my 6 weeks paid vacation and benefits package and 20 paid & bankable sick days a year. But these guys have no problem doing exactly that - that's the rotten fruit of labor law.

[Awoke]

I think you and I see things the same way on this subject. I remember the garbage strike well. Like I said, unions have been corrupted on the inside. There is an agenda to destroy them by continually hiking wages to unrealistic and unsustainable levels with certain groups.

Skilled trades are a world aparts from Garbage collectors in so many ways. Some unions are literally battling to uphold a standard of living for skilled workers, and other unions are unknowingly inflating expectations beyond realistic levels for menial tasks, in order to collapse industry as a whole.

There is a conspiracy, no doubt about it.

[crazychicken]

I mean't no offence to anyone for the "low voltage" comment. None at all.

And just in case=======I apologize for any misunderstanding of my insensitive remark. It was unintended.

Lech Walensa was a friend and a good man.

CC






The "low voltage" comments reminded me of our time in the eastern block-'94 and '95.

Lech Walensa was the President of Poland. He was the driving force in the downfall of communism in Poland. He was an electrician in the shipyards, I think in Gdansk.

But the joke among his detractors was "HE was an electrician--but LOW VOLTAGE only".

CC




I was IBEW out of Northern Indiana, it's been awhile, but I believe they started the Low Voltage Apprenticeship while I was an Apprentice and they only had a 2 year program. I think most guys going into LV couldn't get into the inside wireman program, so that was a way in to the union. The guy's or ladies, who couldn't hadle the Inside wireman, were dropped to the low voltage Apprenticeship.

From my 15 plus years in the trades, Indiana has damn good Union Electricians, the kind of things we would do would piss your pants and there was always a guy available who could do anything you needed. I personally never ran 1 LV cable in 10 years, but after I went non-union, I trained myself and started doing it on for my Business.

The Union Electricians were pretty brainwashed politic wise, they really only gave a f*ck about #1, hated the owners of the companies, but hard fing workers. Apprenticeship was sometimes worse than the military, the way you could get treated. But you learn to be a hard ass, like them.

Towards the end of my apprenticeship, I started questioning some benefit/billing issues. Which employers were paying out over 1.5 million a year in fees, that were literally going to some corporations pocket. But nobody would listen to me, nobody cared and they literally threatened me, so I gave caring about these idiots.


I dont mind the low voltage classification.
It pays decent and theres only two on the books and they are taking time off. Plenty of low voltage work to go around for at least two years as it stands right now.
RI Arsenal I heard told the contracter to stop bidding work as he has all he can handle.
Not so for the journeyman inside wireman. 250 on book 1 and who knows how many are staying at home for the contracters. Last I heard it was atleast a year before those on the books went to work.

[Neuro]

Remember Ford and his assembly line idea where now Ford could make a good car and the workers were paid a decent wage.
He was an industrialist, and I don't think he decided to pay his workers a decent wage because of any union. He payed them a good wage, so that they could be able to buy a car that they built, apart from just surviving. I am sure he got the best workers he could wish for through this policy of his. Which is quite different from the unionized workers today, who decides that they are not going to work at all, because they are entitled to more, further thye will block any one else who is prepared to work at the plant for a decent wage!

Pure speculation on your part...........
Yea Ford was an industrialist and ford just like all those in those early days knew nothing about poor working conditions and long hours with children working along side in steel mills.
Look at your asbestos factories in that same time frame?
I dont know why you cannot stay on subject without going off into left field.

oh I am sorry I didn't know the subject was your delusions. You brought up Ford and now since I showed you contradicted yourself re industrialists. I am out in the left field? Interesting logic there! I guess that kind of logic is a necessity to believe in union mythology about the slavedriving evil grubby hand no good greedy industrialist.

You didnt prove anything in your post about industrialist looking out for their workers.
-Well you pointed out yourself that Ford payed a decent salary to his workers. You are contradicting yourself...

Fact is others stepped in showed you your delusion to think the turn of the century industrialist were out for the worker.
Not really! I heard some opinions on how wrong I was, but they are like asses everyone has one. Btw I never claimed that the industrialists were out for the worker. But I do think we owe them some credit, their leadership transformed society to never before seen material standard.

My point of Ford was he came up with the assembly line that helped workers earn more than they ever did, but Ford wasnt out looking for their safety............woosh right over your head!
-So here you bring out a new point, that we didn't discuss before, and you claim it went right over my head. Nice surprise. Automation was a new invention, did it come out perfect and safe immediatelly? Certainly not. And certainly labor unions were instrumental in putting pressure to improve safety, no argument from me there!

If you werent so bent set on trying to prove your biased point instead of looking at the facts you maybe would have stayed on topic.
- Actually it is you who add to the topics. I just reply to them. You are just using poor reasoning and try to apply opinions to me that I haven't expressed. True bias from you!
Delusions?....................naa just trying to show you that you dont think far enough past your selfish nose
to see where the problem lies.
The problem now is that people in labor unions, don't want to work, for a reasonable salary, doing simple non complicated work. That work gets done in India and China instead. For the western world to survive we would need some good industrialists and high work ethics from the general population. Instead we have a bunch of thieving globalist capitalist bankers, and a population consisting of lazy bums, who feel someone else should pay for them watching American idol, on the huge flatscreen they bought on ever expanding credit... That is where the real problem is!

[Awoke]

The problem now is that people in labor unions, don't want to work, for a reasonable salary, doing simple non complicated work. That work gets done in India and China instead. For the western world to survive we would need some good industrialists and high work ethics from the general population. Instead we have a bunch of thieving globalist capitalist bankers, and a population consisting of lazy bums, who feel someone else should pay for them watching American idol, on the huge flatscreen they bought on ever expanding credit... That is where the real problem is!


Quoted for truth.

[BarneyFag]

[quote=crazychicken ]
The "low voltage" comments reminded me of our time in the eastern block-'94 and '95.

Lech Walensa was the President of Poland. He was the driving force in the downfall of communism in Poland. He was an electrician in the shipyards, I think in Gdansk.

But the joke among his detractors was "HE was an electrician--but LOW VOLTAGE only".

CC


[quote=BarneyFag ]


This is funny. BTW the term Low Voltage was used correctly, not an insult, to a Low Voltage guy, Electrician yes.

[Libertarian_Guard]

This thread reminds me of a story from “The Wealth and Poverty of Nations”

Some European Country (Belgium perhaps) was trying to extract themselves from a colonial African state. But everything they did to jumpstart the economy & raise living standards backfired. So they unionized most of those lucky enough to have jobs. They sent Africans to Europe to train them in the ways of unionization, collective bargaining, strikes, etc.

They finally found something that worked. The Africans rallied behind the union beliefs & principals. National strikes ensued, railroads shut down and the newly independent government was powerless to intervene and settle the issues. After awhile the same European country that granted them their independence and educated the union leaders sent their army in to kill the union leaders.

Maintaining abject poverty was a more workable alternative, rather than having the workers dictate their terms of employment.

[Neuro]

Libertarian guard. For unions to work it is necessary that the people in them have some type of altruistic point of view to some extent. IOW the union can't demand more money in salary than is long term sustainable, by the companies or governments income, and go on a strike when their demands is refused...

I am not surprised that unions didn't work out for Belgian Congo/Zaire or whatever country it was you talked about.

Btw whatever happened to 7th Trump? ;D

[Libertarian_Guard]

Libertarian guard. For unions to work it is necessary that the people in them have some type of altruistic point of view to some extent. IOW the union can't demand more money in salary than is long term sustainable, by the companies or governments income, and go on a strike when their demands is refused...

I am not surprised that unions didn't work out for Belgian Congo/Zaire or whatever country it was you talked about.

Btw whatever happened to 7th Trump? ;D


I was surprised that government, PTB, back in europe thought unionization was the solution.

[Neuro]

Who knows what factions of the PTB, thought... Back then some of them may have thought that unions would work for Africa, and they would have had a connection to the new powers in Africa, calling in favors etc...