Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground

[silversurfer]

Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground
Reporter - Jason Hibbs
Photojournalist - Mark Owen

Story Updated: Sep 30, 2010 at 12:31 AM CDT

http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/news/local/Firefighters-watch-as-home-burns-to-the-ground-104052668.html

OBION COUNTY, Tenn. - Imagine your home catches fire but the local fire department won't respond, then watches it burn. That's exactly what happened to a local family tonight.

A local neighborhood is furious after firefighters watched as an Obion County, Tennessee, home burned to the ground.

The homeowner, Gene Cranick, said he offered to pay whatever it would take for firefighters to put out the flames, but was told it was too late. They wouldn't do anything to stop his house from burning.

Each year, Obion County residents must pay $75 if they want fire protection from the city of South Fulton. But the Cranicks did not pay.

The mayor said if homeowners don't pay, they're out of luck.

This fire went on for hours because garden hoses just wouldn't put it out. It wasn't until that fire spread to a neighbor's property, that anyone would respond.

Turns out, the neighbor had paid the fee.

"I thought they'd come out and put it out, even if you hadn't paid your $75, but I was wrong," said Gene Cranick.

Because of that, not much is left of Cranick's house.

They called 911 several times, and initially the South Fulton Fire Department would not come.

The Cranicks told 9-1-1 they would pay firefighters, whatever the cost, to stop the fire before it spread to their house.

"When I called I told them that. My grandson had already called there and he thought that when I got here I could get something done, I couldn't," Paulette Cranick.

It was only when a neighbor's field caught fire, a neighbor who had paid the county fire service fee, that the department responded. Gene Cranick asked the fire chief to make an exception and save his home, the chief wouldn't.

We asked him why.

He wouldn't talk to us and called police to have us escorted off the property. Police never came but firefighters quickly left the scene. Meanwhile, the Cranick home continued to burn.

We asked the mayor of South Fulton if the chief could have made an exception.

"Anybody that's not in the city of South Fulton, it's a service we offer, either they accept it or they don't," Mayor David Crocker said.

Friends and neighbors said it's a cruel and dangerous city policy but the Cranicks don't blame the firefighters themselves. They blame the people in charge.

"They're doing their job," Paulette Cranick said of the firefighters. "They're doing what they are told to do. It's not their fault."

To give you an idea of just how intense the feelings got in this situation, soon after the fire department returned to the station, the Obion County Sheriff's Department said someone went there and assaulted one of the firefighters.

[General of Darkness]

Two words.

MUTHER FUCKERS.

[Glass]

I don't see what the problem is other than the way in which the fire service fee is levied. In Australia it has always been a levy on home/house bulding insurance. Insurance is not compulsory so plenty of people don't have building insurance and as a result plenty of owners don't pay the fire service fee. So now the fire service fee is built into the Council rates people pay. Everyone supposedly has to pay the rates so everyone pays the fire service fee.

I don't think that the fire service here ignores a fire even if they can't confirm someone paid the fire service fee. They will still rock up and squirt the fire for you but they do reserve the right to give you a bill directly if it turns out you haven't paid the fire service fee.

I wonder if these people could have paid if presented with a true bill of the full cost of attending the fire? The fire chief should at least have the ability to present a full fee bill to them to provide the service. He should also be entitled to demand payment in advance.

I wonder if they have building insurance?

At least no one died and someone learned a valuable lesson. Buy a big hose and a fire hydrant attachment so you can put out your own fire if you don't want someone else to do it for you.

[Dogman]

Welcome to the world or Texas politics. There is a on going feud between the owner of the property and fire chief.

http://www.news-journal.com/news/local/article_c5432eb9-713b-5fe3-a0eb-72e3b5e6afb6.html (http://www.news-journal.com/news/local/article_c5432eb9-713b-5fe3-a0eb-72e3b5e6afb6.html)

Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 12:37 am | Updated: 7:30 am, Wed Aug 25, 2010.

By Adam J. Holland aholland@longview-news.com | 4 comments
Witnesses: Chief said let house burn


Witnesses to a Friday house fire in Upshur County say East Mountain's fire chief ordered his volunteer crews to let the house burn after releasing firefighters from other area cities who had arrived earlier and contained the blaze.

While East Mountain firefighters rested, bystanders said they picked up firehoses and a garden hose to fight the fire themselves, but to no avail.

The home was owned by Bob Miller, who said it was the only uninsured building on his Michel Road property, which includes the Sacred Spur Ranch and Cowhide Cafe.

Miller has tangled through the years with city officials about the dining and entertainment businesses he has operated at the site. He has a lawsuit pending against the city in which he seeks $2 million and punitive damages.

While East Mountain Fire Chief Dennis Medlin acknowledged issuing the order to his crew Friday, he said Monday the home was a "typical slow-burn trailer house," and they are "a booger bear to put out."

The home was a three-bedroom, two-bath, wood-frame structure.

Officials from two area fire departments that responded under emergency services mutual aid agreements said Monday the blaze had been under control when East Mountain released them.

Longview sent an engine company, batallion chief and a medic unit after the call for help was received, said Fire Marshal Johnny Zackary.

According to emergency responder scanner traffic monitored by the News-Journal, East Mountain had no crews available when the fire was reported about 1:30 p.m. Friday. Medlin said Monday no other fires had occurred in his jurisdiction Friday.

Longview crews were on the scene from about 2 p.m. until 4:40 p.m. At that time, witnesses said, the house still had a roof and several rooms apparently untouched by flames.

Because East Mountain was in charge of the fire, Zackary said the report from his department's crew at the scene contains only limited information about the fire. But he said Longview did help bring the fire under control before departing.

"There could be some hot spots or even fire," Zackary said of a fire considered under control, "but the fire is not getting worse."

Once the scene is under control, Zackary said, Longview Fire Department protocol in a mutual aid situation is to ask the department with jurisdiction whether additional help is needed and return its resources to Longview, if not.

Gladewater Fire Chief Wayne "Snuffy" Smith said his department also received a call for mutual aid and supplied a tanker truck and two men.

Smith said he still had fire gear in the house when he heard Medlin give the order to retreat.

"I heard him say several things," Smith recalled Monday, adding he told his crews to go retrieve the equipment. "I also heard Denny say that my two men got there and just about put the fire out before Longview even got there."

Robin Nelk, a Kilgore resident who works at the Sacred Spur, said it was after 3:30 p.m. when Longview firefighters said they had contained the fire.

"They all went to their trucks," she said. "It started flaming up again and my husband grabbed the hose while (East Mountain firefighters) sat there and watched him. Later on, it started burning at the other end of the house and another company went around and they were using their hose. My husband was still using East Mountain's hose while they weren't doing anything."

Nelk said East Mountain firefighters retrieved their hose, used it for a few minutes, then stopped when Medlin ordered them to take a break to drink some water. She said her husband also tried to use a garden hose.

"(Medlin) said 'Put that down. You're wasting water. You just need to let it burn,'" Nelk recalled. "He said that three or four different times.".

C. Leon Fatherree, a former candidate for sheriff and longtime friend of Miller's, also was watching Friday as the home was slowly consumed. He decided it was time to retrieve any belongings that could be saved.

"The fire department had shut down spraying water. (Medlin) sent two firemen in to hand stuff out the window," Fatherree said. "One of them boys came to the window with something, and Dennis Medlin hollered at them. He said if it's not valuable, let it burn."

Fatherree said he, his daughter and several other people formed a line to pass along removed items. His daughter's response to Medlin's comment led to them and a grandson being escorted by police from the property.

"My daughter was standing behind (Medlin) and said 'Everything in there is valuable. That man's whole life is in that house,'" Fatherree said. "He jumped up like she'd given him a cussing."

Medlin on Monday said his department helped Miller retrieve 70 percent of his personal items from the home.

"He had a front yard full of stuff," Medlin said.

Miller said Monday evening he had not yet taken an inventory of his Western memorabilia collection, but he knew at least some of it was destroyed.

"You wouldn't believe what my house used to look like on the inside," he said. "It was like a Western museum. Realistically, we're talking about a quarter to a half-million dollars in memorabilia. But the family pictures are the saddest part. You can't go get those back. They are gone."

Upshur County Fire Marshal Mark Moore said Monday his office is still investigating the origin and cause of the blaze.

Miller said someone should also be looking at how the fire response was handled, including why East Mountain fire crews departed the scene about 8:30 p.m. while there were still some flames.

"Denny said when he left Friday night that it will probably burn to the ground," Miller said. "He said they sprayed some foam on it but that I needed to be careful, because anything within 30 feet could also catch fire. My restaurant is within 30 feet."

Miller said he and a neighbor kept watch all night Friday and used a garden hose to extinguish occasional flare-ups.

Another concern of Miller's — one he referred to as "the most damning" against the fire department — is that a fire hydrant about 150 yards from the site of his home was never used.

"Denny told me on Saturday morning the fire hydrant was dry. On Monday morning, the hydrant was open and was spewing water about 30 feet," Miller said.

Moore said he was not sure who, if anyone, would be responsible for investigating allegations of fire department negligence. Brown, who said East Mountain police were also investigating the fire, deferred questions to Upshur County officials.

While Miller sorts through the ashes on his property, he also awaits a March 7 court date in Tyler, where a jury will be seated in U.S. District Court to hear evidence in the civil rights case he has pending against the city.

According to the lawsuit, Miller bought the property in East Mountain in 1999 and operated a restaurant, dance hall and other entertainment venues in subsequent years.

Miller's lawsuit claims then-Police Chief Jeff Pearson and Mayor Ronnie Hill selectively targeted him and his customers after the city in 2007 revised its noise ordinance.

The selective enforcement, Miller said, caused an 80 percent decrease in Christmas party business and 60 percent decrease in weddings at the ranch. He also blames it for a 33 percent decrease in overall business at the cafe.

"They intended to burn the thing to the ground," Fatherree said. "They want us out of here. Why? I don't know. We're the only thing that brings revenue in."

[Ponce]

I don't get it, my home tax takes care of the fire department......... >:(

[Dogman]

I don't get it, my home tax takes care of the fire department......... >:(


Yes in most places it is.

The post above is part of a long term feud between the owner and local gov. And over the years many dirty
tricks have been played on the owner. He is a good guy trying to make a living and the local gov has a hard
on for him by trying to drive him out of town. East Mountian is so small ,if you even think of blinking you will
miss it.

Edit: On this one I think the owner is going to win big against the town. Too many witness's this time and the media is watching.

[Glass]

Two words.

MUTHER f*ckERS.


quoted for truth.

[Grand Master Melon]

Maybe I'm just a jerk but I don't see anything wrong with the first story. If the people wanted the fire department to put out their fire then they should have paid the bill.

I feel for the guy in the second story as those firefighters and the fire department obviously don't care much about the job they're tasked with. Pathetic.

[General of Darkness]

Maybe I'm just a jerk but I don't see anything wrong with the first story. If the people wanted the fire department to put out their fire then they should have paid the bill.


You'd also be ok with some female getting gang raped because she was in a bad neighborhood, and she should have known better.

[Grand Master Melon]

Maybe I'm just a jerk but I don't see anything wrong with the first story. If the people wanted the fire department to put out their fire then they should have paid the bill.


You'd also be ok with some female getting gang raped because she was in a bad neighborhood, and she should have known better.


Nice try. Comparing the actions of fire to those of criminals is ridiculous at best.

[willie pete]

Since they were on scene they could've put out the fire and billed the owners, then put a lien on the property if they wouldn't pay, what if there had been someone trapped inside, would they've stood by and watched 'em burn up?

[General of Darkness]

Maybe I'm just a jerk but I don't see anything wrong with the first story. If the people wanted the fire department to put out their fire then they should have paid the bill.


You'd also be ok with some female getting gang raped because she was in a bad neighborhood, and she should have known better.


Nice try. Comparing the actions of fire to those of criminals is ridiculous at best.


I wasn't comparing the actions, I was comparing YOUR ideology and thinking. You gotta do better than than.

[k-os]

Maybe I'm just a jerk but I don't see anything wrong with the first story. If the people wanted the fire department to put out their fire then they should have paid the bill.


I must be a jerk too, then. I WISH I could opt out of some of the "services" that are supposedly provided to me via my taxes. Public schools, fire department, police department - I would opt out of all of those things, and my tax bill would be 1/3 of what it is now. If my house went up in flames, I would be upset that I made the wrong bet, but it is a bet I would be willing to make. I would take full responsibility for that bet, instead of saying "Aw, shucks, I thought I could get away with it."

And General of Darkness, that gang-rape comment was no where near the scope of this situation, and not related to the original post at all. Come on, now, that was ridiculous.

You can't buy insurance after your house sets fire either. The fee from the OP is sort of like fire insurance. The unfortunate home owners in the OP made a choice, and they should take responsibility for their choice.

How are we ever going to be able to be free if people will not take responsibility for their choices? This is why the nanny state exists - because people refuse to take responsibility for their choices, point the blame on someone else, and cry "victim".

[Liquid]

It's like we are going back in time in the history of the fire service.

Little known fact, the history of fire service is a little 'checkered' you could say. New York a couple hundred years ago, citizens paid, or were extorted..to have signs upon their residence. If you had a sign, they would put out the fire. If you didn't have a sign, they would let the place burn..or worse, put out the fire and claim ownership of the residence. Then loot the place.

It was common for multiple fire departments to show up to a fire, and then instead of fighting the fire...they fought each other for rights to it, all the while the place went burning.

Fortunately the service turned for the better, until reading this article.

Another reason why we need to restore the history of the volunteers. Volunteer dept's budgeting is low enough not to have make citizens subscribe to it.

The citizens make the department, and put forth the effort to protect their fellow neighbors.

[still afloat]

Maybe I'm just a jerk but I don't see anything wrong with the first story. If the people wanted the fire department to put out their fire then they should have paid the bill.


Isn't that like sayin' if you don't want your business burned down you should pay protection money to whoever might be asking for it.
Sir , this is a bad neighborhood but if you pay us 30% of your weekly take we'll make sure there is no sudden fires .

I can see it now , bob we have a fire at 545 W. elm St. Dispatch 2 units .
Hold on , let me start up the computer to make sure they have paid their fees first .
*key in theme from Jeopardy*
Great , got the welcome to Windows screen , wont be long now .
What was that address again?
Dang it , windows froze up .
10 min later , great they did pay so we'll get those units out ASAP .

So if a car driving down main street catches on fire and has out of town / state plates they break out the marshmallows and hot dogs ?
I'm sure they didn't pay for the local service if they are from out of town .
Out of town = SOL ?

[Book]

...I don't see anything wrong with the first story. If the people wanted the fire department to put out their fire then they should have paid the bill.



I agree. Like demanding to buy maternity medical coverage AFTER the first missed period. Like demanding to buy auto insurance AFTER the collision. Freeloaders bet wrong and now they cry...lol.

It takes money to buy a fire engine. It takes money to build a firehouse. They didn't pay a dime.

:oo-->

[willie pete]

I WISH I could opt out of some of the "services" that are supposedly provided to me via my taxes.

Me too....I'd add our County Public Library System to the list, don't get me wrong, I do believe they provide a service; but with an Annual operating budget of $142,574,000; that's almost $12 million a month....... a hell of a budget :D :D

[Grand Master Melon]

Maybe I'm just a jerk but I don't see anything wrong with the first story. If the people wanted the fire department to put out their fire then they should have paid the bill.


Isn't that like sayin' if you don't want your business burned down you should pay protection money to whoever might be asking for it.
Sir , this is a bad neighborhood but if you pay us 30% of your weekly take we'll make sure there is no sudden fires .

I can see it now , bob we have a fire at 545 W. elm St. Dispatch 2 units .
Hold on , let me start up the computer to make sure they have paid their fees first .
*key in theme from Jeopardy*
Great , got the welcome to Windows screen , wont be long now .
What was that address again?
Dang it , windows froze up .
10 min later , great they did pay so we'll get those units out ASAP .

So if a car driving down main street catches on fire and has out of town / state plates they break out the marshmallows and hot dogs ?
I'm sure they didn't pay for the local service if they are from out of town .
Out of town = SOL ?




You pose an interesting point about those who are from out of town and travelling down the road but my guess would be that due to it being on a roadway it is covered as it is public property as opposed to the house which resides on private property.

As for the extortion analogy, I disagree. Surely the fire department isn't out setting fires and 30% off the top is a far cry from a lousy 75 bucks.

You must also remember that many people choose to live in unincorporated areas specifically to avoid paying various taxes (which by the way is fine in my book) and here we see the consequences of those actions.

[Grand Master Melon]

Maybe I'm just a jerk but I don't see anything wrong with the first story. If the people wanted the fire department to put out their fire then they should have paid the bill.


You'd also be ok with some female getting gang raped because she was in a bad neighborhood, and she should have known better.


Nice try. Comparing the actions of fire to those of criminals is ridiculous at best.


I wasn't comparing the actions, I was comparing YOUR ideology and thinking. You gotta do better than than.


Oh I get it. Because I think people should pay for fire service or face the consequences then I must think that women should be gang raped when choosing to walk through a bad area.

Nevermind, I still don't see a good analogy there.

[Liquid]

Oh I get it. Because I think people should pay for fire service or face the consequences then I must think that women should be gang raped when choosing to walk through a bad area.

Nevermind, I still don't see a good analogy there.


I see your analogy Grand. Say any one of us see's a woman being raped, as citizens, we should take it into our hands and stop it, and capture the bad guy. As volunteers, doing our duty, for our neighbors, our neighborhood.

I think the same thing for fires. Neighbors coming together to bring a dept to life, and protecting each others homes.

These services shouldn't have to paid for in that sense, but paid for by the actions of the community.

But, I am an idealist in that way, I suppose.

[still afloat]

I think of it in the same way as auto insurance .
My jeep is paid off so I do not have to carry full coverage .
I carry liability , so if I have a wreck the insurance pays for the other party's damages but not mine .

If I had full coverage then repair place A would fix my jeep and my paying the insurance covers the cost of Place A to fix it .
I chose not to pay the insurance so I will have to pay Place A to fix it .
Place A will fix it even though I did not pay the insurance comp. for full coverage .

The fire should have been put out and the cost passed on to the home owner .
If the home owner refused to pay then they do the same as the Repair place A if I did not pay, a lien would be placed on the property.

[ShortJohnSilver]

I do wonder though ... if they started to work on the fire then stopped, isn't that different from never starting on the fire in the first place?

That they started working on it, meant that they accepted the dispatch and accepted by their actions, that they were going to work at putting out the fire. Once they stopped short, they committed criminal negligence.

[Liquid]

That they started working on it, meant that they accepted the dispatch and accepted by their actions, that they were going to work at putting out the fire. Once they stopped short, they committed criminal negligence.


Good point! I know it's that way with medical personnel. EMT's, once they start treatment, can not stop unless they transfer the patient to a person of higher training, say a paramedic. It would be negligent to do so.

[Agrippa]

I found nothing morally objectionable about the behavior of the fire squad in the OP. The homeowner opted not to pay for what was essentially fire-insurance, so he had no legitimate claim to it.

However, it seems the fire department passed up an opportunity to make some bucks. If I were running it I'd have told the owner that it was too bad that he didn't pay the $75 for the service, but offer to fight the fire for him at $20,000 per hour (or some such).

[Twisted Titan]

Maybe I'm just a jerk but I don't see anything wrong with the first story. If the people wanted the fire department to put out their fire then they should have paid the bill.


I must be a jerk too, then. I WISH I could opt out of some of the "services" that are supposedly provided to me via my taxes. Public schools, fire department, police department - I would opt out of all of those things, and my tax bill would be 1/3 of what it is now. If my house went up in flames, I would be upset that I made the wrong bet, but it is a bet I would be willing to make. I would take full responsibility for that bet, instead of saying "Aw, shucks, I thought I could get away with it."

And General of Darkness, that gang-rape comment was no where near the scope of this situation, and not related to the original post at all. Come on, now, that was ridiculous.

You can't buy insurance after your house sets fire either. The fee from the OP is sort of like fire insurance. The unfortunate home owners in the OP made a choice, and they should take responsibility for their choice.

How are we ever going to be able to be free if people will not take responsibility for their choices? This is why the nanny state exists - because people refuse to take responsibility for their choices, point the blame on someone else, and cry "victim".




I would definately opt out of school services ( i dont have kids ...yet)
And the Police "protection" is a no brainer

But I would keep the fire services...too much can go wrong and you didn t have to do anything

I would also keep municipal sewage as well.

[chad]

on the streets of new york they call it a "vig."

[EE_]

Street justice should be the order of the day.
I say fight fire with fire!

The only way I could rationalize not putting out a fire is if a property is out of service range. Out of service properties should pay a fee to get protection. You shouldn't get city/county services if you live 50 miles out in the middle of nowhere.
The killing part is having firefighters, hose in hand, doing nothing.

[Awoke]

As far as I'm concerned, if a SINGLE PENNY of that home owner's taxes EVER went towards the Fire Department in ANY WAY, he should have been serviced by those sons-of-bitches that stood by and watched his home burn down.

....over a $75 dollar fee.

You assholes are pathetic. If I was a bystander, I would have grabbed hoses, buckets, hell - even a coffee cup, and done my best to help this guy put out that fire.

If I was a fireman, and I rolled up, and my chief directed me to stand down and let it burn, I would still put it out, and I would beat the shit out of him if he tried to stop me, and I wouldn't care if I got fired for doing the right thing. Where are your heads?

"He didn't pay for the service".

Dicks. I would have done it for free. I'm disgusted.

[Dogman]

Yes east mountain city taxes cover fire protection, also other surrounding fd's responded, but the east mnt chief had the say. Bunch of witnesses also the local media got involved on this one. On this texas fire I'm thinking
the owner now owns the town for what the towns chief said and did.

Too many witnesses!

This is on going and I will posts update's as they happen. Small town politics at its worst/best depending how you look at it. Sort of like Louisiana politics = High entertainment!

;D

[horseshoe3]

In the OP, the refusal to fight the fire wasn't about the $75 fee. It was about all the other potential $75 fees out there and making sure to send the message loud and clear.

The rape analogy is valid to a point. If you hear a woman scream and go over to see what is happening, you don't just sit back and enjoy the show. In the same way, when your neighbor has a fire, you help put it out.

Of course, maybe I'm just ignorant since I'm from a small town. I just don't know any better than to be a decent human being.

[chad]

now we have a homeless family who is going to need public assistance. wonder how much that is going to cost the taxpayers? probably more than $75.

[keehah]

I pay $140 a year for fire protection. I also pay separate for water (and more for sewer if I was connected) and garbage collection in addition to my 'regular' property and school taxes.

I have no problem with the OP. If one does not have a mortgage or expect insurance payout for fire, why not be allowed the option to opt out of this government program.

However if one is paying city or county water taxes, one should not be prevented from hooking one's own fire hose up to the fire hydrant and do a better job than the garden hose does.

[Awoke]

If one was to stand by as ones house burned down, meanwhile one is a volunteer firefighter, then one is a total douche.

Period.

[horseshoe3]

Just to clarify my position. The fee is voluntary, therefore the department has no obligation to respond. However, once they drive out to the house, they have already commited resources and have demonstrated that they have nothing more pressing to do. At that point they might as well be neighborly and squirt some water on the fire. To stand around on scene and watch someone's house burn down when you have the means to help and do not have any paying customers to attend to is an act of unspeakable evil.

[RJB]

Fire trucks cost money to maintain, as does the firehouse.

I was a volunteer in a rural area for 5 and 1/2 years until my wife dragged me to the suburbs. I gotta get back to a rural area...

Anyway, our dept. was aware of everything we spent and we'd have arguments over what was appropriate and what wasn't. Whether it was a grant from homeland security to buy something silly or bake sales to buy an infared scope to look for survivors or spot fires not extingushed...

I could see us sitting by as a house burned to the ground if the guy had not paid in advance. However if there had been someone stuck in there, we would have fought amoung ourselves to put on an SCBA to go and rescue the victim whether the money was there or not.

BTW this is a great example of libertarianism in action. Free will to pay for services that you think you need or not.

Ironically this is one of the few local services that government SHOULD provide, but yet they spend millions (on the county level at least) on stuff they probably don't need and skimp on what is important.

PAY ATTENYION TO LOCAL POLITICS, FOLKS!!!

[horseshoe3]

Ironically this is one of the few local services that government SHOULD provide

Yep, one of the few legitimate uses for the property tax. A tax on property to fund the protection of property. Imagine that.

I'm a volunteer firefighter myself. Our department is tax funded so it's a different situation than this. However, the tax funding is only used for buildings, equipment and fuel. None of the firefighters ever gets a dime. The thought never crossed our minds that we should get paid, much less that we should refuse service for failure to pay. We do it because helping your friends and neighbors just seems like the right thing to do.

We've watched buildings burn, but only because they were too engulfed when we arrive to be savable. There are definite disadvantages to living in a rural area. People have to leave their farms, drive 2-5 miles into town and drive the fire truck 2-5 miles out to the fire. Response time is almost never less than 10 minutes, and a house fire is out of control long before that. If I had the choice, I would opt out. But I would make sure I had some way to fight fire on my own instead of just pretending it won't happen to me.

[RJB]

Yep, one of the few legitimate uses for the property tax. A tax on property to fund the protection of property. Imagine that.

I'm a volunteer firefighter myself. Our department is tax funded so it's a different situation than this. However, the tax funding is only used for buildings, equipment and fuel. None of the firefighters ever gets a dime. The thought never crossed our minds that we should get paid, much less that we should refuse service for failure to pay.

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure any volunteer's instinct would be to put the fire out, whether the guy paid or not. I just have a feeling, knowing how local politics can get, that the man who refused to pay for fire service probably bad mouthed the fire dept on numerous occasions. I could see the firecheif telling the firemen months before the house fire, "If that SOB's house burns, F--- him."

I'm guessing that because I really can't see a volunteer willingly sitting by unless there was some really bad blood/politics involved.

BTW, I was purely a volunteer too

[Ash_Williams]

Not really libertarianism in action. Had that been the case, you'd probably have one fire department that charges $75 as soft of an insurance fee per year, and another company that you could phone up and they'd put out your house for $3000 per fire. Or it could even be the same company.

[uranian]

reminded me of farenheit 451 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_451). great book, if you like dystopian literature.

[Spectrism]

Since they were on scene they could've put out the fire and billed the owners, then put a lien on the property if they wouldn't pay, what if there had been someone trapped inside, would they've stood by and watched 'em burn up?

The problem with that is this: the people will learn that the cost of the flunky firemen is much less than they are paying. The guys had nothing else to do but watch. The equipment is already covered in long term costs. The water is cheap.

But- if you stay out of the club by refusing to pay the fee, don't expect them to cover you when you have a fire. Just that simple. You make your choices and take the consequences. As for the management of the fire dept... they should have a way to charge per use. They may find an angry bullet instead of winning a new customer. Obviously government agencies do not act like private firms.

[RJB]

Not really libertarianism in action. Had that been the case, you'd probably have one fire department that charges $75 as soft of an insurance fee per year, and another company that you could phone up and they'd put out your house for $3000 per fire. Or it could even be the same company.


In towns of a few thousand people or less there isn't the money for competing fire dept, and not enough men for that matter who are willing to get up in the middle of the night for free...

This was as free market as you can get pay for services or don't pay and get no services.

[Dogman]

Not really libertarianism in action. Had that been the case, you'd probably have one fire department that charges $75 as soft of an insurance fee per year, and another company that you could phone up and they'd put out your house for $3000 per fire. Or it could even be the same company.


In towns of a few thousand people or less there isn't the money for competing fire dept, and not enough men for that matter who are willing to get up in the middle of the night for free...

This was as free market as you can get pay for services or don't pay and get no services.


There are less than 900 people living there.

http://www.city-data.com/city/East-Mountain-Texas.html

[RJB]

http://www.usatoday.com/video/index.htm?bctid=616285294001&csp=taboola#/News/Home+burns%2C+firefighters+refuse+to+respond/42804638001/40264770001/626202272001



Here the man says he just forgot to pay. I don't like getting swayed by emotion, but the guy seems sincere

[Ash_Williams]

In towns of a few thousand people or less there isn't the money for competing fire dept, and not enough men for that matter who are willing to get up in the middle of the night for free...

This was as free market as you can get pay for services or don't pay and get no services.

Well like I said it might be the same company that charges a yearly insurance fee or a massive per-use fee, especially in a small town.


Each year, Obion County residents must pay $75 if they want fire protection from the city of South Fulton. But the Cranicks did not pay.

But here the fire dept is the city. That's where things go wrong. The depts only source of revenue is the city so they don't need to be accountable to any customers, they just need to make sure people pay $75 to the city. They can't just collect money directly from the people that want their service, like a private company would.

What private company do you know of that wouldn't do something if you were willing to pay the money? They might charge through the nose - but they'll do the job. I'm sure they'd be more than happy to quote the homeowner 5k for their services and take home bonuses of a few hundred bucks each even after all expenses of doing the job had been covered.

A private company would also be more motivated to do the work and collect a fee to as to not take a loss on the trip, while the city dept is happy to sit there, paying firefighters to stand around. The whole dynamic is changed because the city dept loses money by doing the job, while a private company would profit.

[RJB]

My mom called the local radio station and they announced we needed volunteers. We had over 100 people with shovels and blankets and pitchforks etc. within 20 minutes. Parked cars lined the nearby highway for 1/2 a mile of people who came to help.
It took them all about 15 minutes to put it out.
These days we have a volunteer rural fire dept and I think they are compensated with tax money.
Different times... There were a string of tornados that ripped through where I used to live. With in a week or two all the Amish in the area pitched in and rebuilt all their damages structures.

A few years later, there were still people fighting insurance companies to get money to rebuild. It's a messed up system that we live under.

BTW, I realize that I'm all over the map with my opinions on this incident. Mostly I'm riding on a bunch of conflicting emotions. If I were up for jury selection, I'd have to tell them I wasn't qualified.

[RJB]

A private company would also be more motivated to do the work and collect a fee to as to not take a loss on the trip, while the city dept is happy to sit there, paying firefighters to stand around. The whole dynamic is changed because the city dept loses money by doing the job, while a private company would profit.
In a small town like that it's a volunteer dept-- there is NO profit. The money they take in goes to maintain equiptment from flashlights to trucks that cost a few hundred thousand dollars.

If there was to be a profit, you'd see Haliburton signs on all rural fire dept buildings, LOL.

[k-os]

reminded me of farenheit 451 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_451). great book, if you like dystopian literature.


OK, I've read the book, but I have no idea how this situation relates to Fahrenheit 451, unless it's because there are fires in the book. Fires consisting of books, for that matter. Please tell me, because if not, I will always wonder. :)

[chad]

reminded me of farenheit 451 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_451). great book, if you like dystopian literature.


OK, I've read the book, but I have no idea how this situation relates to Fahrenheit 451, unless it's because there are fires in the book. Fires consisting of books, for that matter. Please tell me, because if not, I will always wonder. :)


sarcasm of the future "perfect society." we supposedly live in some utopian society/place in history, yet the fire department lets houses burn down.

[keehah]

Here is an example from last year of bureaucratic death and destruction involving three Fire Departments to fail to do what one man with a Fire Hose could have done to stop an office fire. This fire happened during the day at a major airport and was noticed right away.

The Airport Fire Department stationed on scene did not attempt to put out the fire because they are only trained and authorized for plane fires.

The Pineview Fire Department five minutes away did not attempt to put out the fire because they are volunteer so are not authorized to.

Only the Fire Department from a distant city is allowed to put out building fires.

FlightSource: NT Air Hangar Destroyed by Fire (http://www.flightsource.ca/blog/flightdeck/2009/12/19/nt-air-hanger-destroyed-by-fire/)

December 19th, 2009

PRINCE GEORGE, BC – At approximately 2:30 pm this afternoon, the Prince George Fire Department along with Prince George Airport Authority Fire Crews, RCMP and BC Ambulance, responded to reports of a fire in the NT Air Hangar at the Prince George Airport.

“Upon arriving they found the building fully engulfed” said Todd Doherty from the Prince George Airport Authority.

Reports from the scene indicate that the fire started in the northeast corner of the World War II era building in an area occupied by offices. Sources say that all the aircraft were removed from the hanger before the fire spread from the front offices into the hanger area.

Great pictures and comments too.

[Book]

Here the man says he just forgot to pay. I don't like getting swayed by emotion, but the guy seems sincere



He should volunteer to make a "I WAS A DUMB ASS AND "FORGOT" TO PAY MY SHARE" public service announcement.

I'll bet many of the other "forgetful" neighbors are now sending in their late payment...lol.

:D

[Liquid]

In a small town like that it's a volunteer dept-- there is NO profit. The money they take in goes to maintain equiptment from flashlights to trucks that cost a few hundred thousand dollars.


Exactly, it's a relatively small cost the community pays for the service.

My old department was all volunteers, we did have a paid secretary, a paid training captain, and our fire chief was a paid employee. Everyone else, was all volunteers, and busy, averaging about 10 calls a day.

We did that because of camaraderie, and the fact that we enjoyed the rush of fighting fire. If a fire came in, you'd have guys leaving a family dinner at christmas to get there, guys leaving their own birthday parties to get on an engine to go fight the thing...because there's folks out there that are just a bit "off" like that.

If I left my own birthday dinner to show up to a fire, and be told not to put it out...there would be blood. The biggest fire I fought was on Easter, when I should have been with family.

This is one of those things that really does not need to be over analyzed, or made complicated. Firemen like fighting fires, heck 75% off all firemen are volunteers, they do it for free. Because it's fun, it's exciting, it's a damn good challenge.

Just don't get upset if it looks like they are having fun doing it, because back at the firehouse...a good fire is the talk for days, weeks even.

[still afloat]

Woman doesn't blame firefighters who let home burn

Published - Oct 07 2010 12:05AM EST

By TRAVIS LOLLER - Associated Press Writer


SOUTH FULTON, Tenn. — A Tennessee woman said Wednesday she doesn't blame the firefighters who watched while her house burned to the ground after her family failed to pay a $75 annual protection fee.

Paulette Cranick said the firefighters who came to the scene were just following orders. Her family had paid the fee in the past but simply forgot it recently. Cranick, 67, said she's just thankful no one was hurt in the fire last week that destroyed the doublewide trailer in rural northwest Tennessee.

"You can't blame them if they have to do what the boss says to do," Cranick told The Associated Press. "I've had firemen call and apologize."

Firefighters did not try to save the burning structure because Cranick had not paid the subscription fee for fire protection. Firefighters went to the scene to keep flames from spreading to nearby property whose owners had paid. The county does not have fire service, but rural residents can pay a fee to get service from the nearby town of South Fulton.

Her grandson, Lance Cranick, 21, who lived there with her and her husband, started the fire while burning trash in a barrel. He went inside to take a shower and upon returning saw a shed next to the house in flames. It spread despite his efforts to put it out with a garden hose.

Paulette Cranick said they had paid the fee in the past, although sometimes late, but it slipped their mind this year.

Lance Cranick said "this is something I've got to live with the rest of my life."

"To see the house and everything you grew up in burning down before your eyes is kind of harsh," he said.

He recalled that he called the fire department and asked them to come but they declined.

"I was in shock," he said.

Local officials did not immediately return phone calls Wednesday to The Associated Press for comment but have confirmed to local media that the family did not pay the fee.

Paulette Cranick and her husband are now living in their year-old camper and Lance is living with his mother. The family says it's received offers of help but that the aid isn't needed.

"We have insurance and are happy everyone is alive," she said.

[Awoke]

"You can't blame them if they have to do what the boss says to do,"


No, but you can blame their douche-bag sergeant that gave the order to stand down.



Cranick told The Associated Press. "I've had firemen call and apologize."


Pfft. Whatever. I would not settle with that.
(And I don't care if anyone agrees or disagrees)