Refinancing in this market

[FreeEnergy]

gentlemen, someone here was or is a loan officer who "gets it" and sees where it all goes. need an advice, from a person who gets this mortgage market.

1. would you refinance NOW, or wait until rates will go further down?
2. would you go for lowest possible rate (like 3.65%) and roll fees into a mortgage? pay fees out of pocket (and why)? or something else?
3. if not, would you go for the lowest rate that you can without paying any refi fees? Something like 4.375% can do it right now.
4. would you go for a fixed 30 yr mortgage? 20 yr? or something other? assume that you own roughly half the property since it was last assessed (area isn't affected much by crisis).

The goals would be:
a) to lower rate, b) to pay the least for it, c) to not get trapped in a legal trickery or a scam, d) have a way of paying lowest amount possible if going gets tough (so far it isn't bad in the area)


what worries me the most is millions of foreclosures that aren't on the market. which can flood it and drop prices significantly. but what would you do if half of your FRNs are locked in the house? ...not too worried that it will drop, the only regret is that I didn't buy more gold earlier....

[Celtic Rogue]

Bump... I would say no... but I dont know $hit in the present day market what is prudent to do! I am at about a point above the rate today. Anyone?

[zusn]

gentlemen, someone here was or is a loan officer who "gets it" and sees where it all goes. need an advice, from a person who gets this mortgage market.

1. would you refinance NOW, or wait until rates will go further down?
I'm refinancing now. Locked in at 3.75% a little while ago. The new procedures take forever, they verify damn near everything. Too bad it wasn't always like that

2. would you go for lowest possible rate (like 3.65%) and roll fees into a mortgage?NO pay fees out of pocket (and why)? YES. Excel comes with a prebuilt amortization table. (can download too if you don't have it) Rolling the fees into your mortgage is going to cost you, even with a super low interest rate.
3. if not, would you go for the lowest rate that you can without paying any refi fees? Something like 4.375% can do it right now. I would go for whatever is best for you. I don't mind paying some fees if the overall difference in money savings is big enough.
4. would you go for a fixed 30 yr mortgage? 20 yr? or something other? assume that you own roughly half the property since it was last assessed (area isn't affected much by crisis).I want to pay it off as fast as possible, so I'm going into a 10 year fixed mortgage. Go for the shortest term you can afford.

The goals would be:
a) to lower rate, b) to pay the least for it, c) to not get trapped in a legal trickery or a scam, d) have a way of paying lowest amount possible if going gets tough (so far it isn't bad in the area)


what worries me the most is millions of foreclosures that aren't on the market. which can flood it and drop prices significantly. but what would you do if half of your FRNs are locked in the house? I could care less about foreclosures or home prices falling. My house is my home and I'm just paying off the amount that I agreed to pay on it. No way I'm moving or selling. Others might be in a different situation and moving is an option or necessity. I can't speak to that....not too worried that it will drop, the only regret is that I didn't buy more gold earlier.... HAHAHA, don't we all!!

[Spectrism]

When paying off previous mortgage, require that they produce the BLUE INK original note. If they cannot, then they have no mortgage and you owe nothing. At that point, sue for quiet title.

[Twisted Titan]

My foolish advice: WAIT.

Things are happening at the speed of light now.

The BOA move to halt foreclosures was a deathknell.

Plus there are still too many unknowns:

Nobody is talking about what municipalites will do to tax rates to keep the ship from sinking.

No Job recovery Next leg down in the stock market is absolutely certain.


The next 90-120 days will be incredible as to what happens in the RE market.

Just wait.......

T

[LuckyStrike]

I'm somewhat in the same boat, I was raised to get a 15 year fixed, and my opinion has always been if you can't afford a 15 year you can't afford the house. Now though in the uncharted territory this country is in I'm debating on locking in say a 20-30 year fixed at close to 4% compared to my current 12 more years at 6%.

On the one hand I could refinance close to 3.5% for a 10 year and my payment would be the same and I'd knock 2 years off or I could extend it out 8 more years to 20 for about 1% more. The worst thing about the 20 or 30 is you don't knock any principal down for 10+ years unless you do overpayment which is certainly a possibility.

So here are my options as I see them.

1) Refinance from 6% 12 years left to 3.7% with 10 years and keep the same payment.
2) Refinance to 15-30 years at more interest but cut my payment from 200-800 per month. Take this savings and put the majority towards principal.
3) Same as above but forget the principal and buy PM's and other tangible assets.

Any thoughts?

[zusn]

I'm somewhat in the same boat, I was raised to get a 15 year fixed, and my opinion has always been if you can't afford a 15 year you can't afford the house. Now though in the uncharted territory this country is in I'm debating on locking in say a 20-30 year fixed at close to 4% compared to my current 12 more years at 6%.

On the one hand I could refinance close to 3.5% for a 10 year and my payment would be the same and I'd knock 2 years off or I could extend it out 8 more years to 20 for about 1% more. The worst thing about the 20 or 30 is you don't knock any principal down for 10+ years unless you do overpayment which is certainly a possibility.

So here are my options as I see them.

1) Refinance from 6% 12 years left to 3.7% with 10 years and keep the same payment.
2) Refinance to 15-30 years at more interest but cut my payment from 200-800 per month. Take this savings and put the majority towards principal.
3) Same as above but forget the principal and buy PM's and other tangible assets.

Any thoughts?
I say option 1. There should be a pretty good difference in total interest paid between the 2. Then again, I don't have numbers to work with. Get out from the shackles of debt as fast as possible.

[Cebu_4_2]

Go for a 30 fixt rate, and pay it like it was a 15 or 20. If SHTF for you you can pay the minimum buying you time instead of ramming foreclosure down your throat.

The other suggestion of producing the real note makes a LOT of sense to me too.

[optionT]

What happens when you pay off the house and they can't produce the title?

???

[Twisted Titan]

What happens when you pay off the house and they can't produce the title?

???



Thats a very nasty possibilty that will befall some poor soul.


T

[Cebu_4_2]

What happens when you pay off the house and they can't produce the title?

???


That is the whole point of defaulting, or not, they (banksters) can still say the debt was never paid, even after you sell your fully paid for "obligation" and come after you for the money they claim you owe them. This is what is so messed up and the people saying that they stick to their word and pay a fictitious deed and the rest are dead beats. This may come back to haunt those "good to their word folks" but right now they don't see it. It is a contract, if the contract is followed as written than all is good, until someone can't prove it being paid, works both ways.

I explain it to people like this:

I sell you a car under contract 100 a month. I am rich, retire on an island somewhere. I decide to sell all the titles to my old neighbor but he is too lazy and cheap to transfer the titles into his and your name. You stop paying and he shows up at your door asking for the keys and the car. You say wait a minute, get your title and it doesn't have his name on it. You say Who the fvck are you to take my car??? The other name on the title is gone, out of the picture.

case closed.... next!

[FreeEnergy]

Good replies folks. I am thinking of getting 30 yr rate and pay if off as if it is 10 year loan.

But...I am thinking at the same time that they will HAVE to drop rates more. There is NO WAY on earth these poor people who were laid off will be able to pay these...and the banksters will have to lower rates until they find a happy medium of enough fat going to them without bankrupting the country.

Then again, maybe they don't care if they bankrupt.


What's an ink note, and how and WHEN do I ask to show it? Sorry, not local, need terms explained. :)

[Spectrism]

Good replies folks. I am thinking of getting 30 yr rate and pay if off as if it is 10 year loan.

But...I am thinking at the same time that they will HAVE to drop rates more. There is NO WAY on earth these poor people who were laid off will be able to pay these...and the banksters will have to lower rates until they find a happy medium of enough fat going to them without bankrupting the country.

Then again, maybe they don't care if they bankrupt.


What's an ink note, and how and WHEN do I ask to show it? Sorry, not local, need terms explained. :)


The reference was to THE "blue ink" (not a copy) note. It is THE original note you signed personally and is your IOW to the bank for the payments. The "IOU" MUST be returned when paid off. If they lost it, they lost the authority to bill you. You would arrange for a closing wherein the note would be paid off if and only if the original note is produced. If they cannot show up with the original note, THEY default.

[FreeEnergy]

Spectrum, and how would I arrange that, through a lawyer? I don't think that in refi there's a payment made out to me, it all goes directly to pay off a bank ('cause it probably doesn't exist and just changes from one computer to the next, but its besides the point). So I arrange for refi, then need to have a legal document drafted where it says that payment is only made in case they produce an inked note?


under 15 USC 1641, all the lender has to do is inform you to the best of their knowledge who hold your note. THEY DO NOT HAVE TO SHOW THE WET INKED SIGNATURE!

Is the above true?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/12/seiu-launches-wheres-the-_n_759965.html

[FreeEnergy]

Is this legit:

http://action.seiu.org/page/speakout/wheresthenote

[Spectrism]

Spectrum, and how would I arrange that, through a lawyer? I don't think that in refi there's a payment made out to me, it all goes directly to pay off a bank ('cause it probably doesn't exist and just changes from one computer to the next, but its besides the point). So I arrange for refi, then need to have a legal document drafted where it says that payment is only made in case they produce an inked note?


The closing will be managed by YOUR lawyer and one appointed by the bank. He MUST insist ahead of time that the original note be provided & surrendered back to you as evidence of its death. The word "mortgage" comes from mort- death/ gage- pledge. Your pledge to pay has death written into its terms so that it will end and be returned to you. When you fulfill the terms, it is dead. Its death is complete with its return for YOUR destruction. The one who holds the note owns the pledge until it is fulfilled.

Of course, you will need to have your existing bank notified. If you choose to do this yourself, get educated. If they cannot commit to this, you will not need to have a closing. Your lawyer will then sue for quiet title- clearing your title of any liens.

[FreeEnergy]

Does it have to be during foreclosure only? Can it be done on refi

Has anyone here tried it?

Is this any legit:?

<object width="640" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_F_f6H5NrM8&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_F_f6H5NrM8&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></embed></object>

[Ponce]

If it is your home is easy to think about what you should do..........but if it is and "investment" then is hard to do anything about it.

Many people like to say that they "own" a house when all that they are really doing is paying rent to a bank........ a home means roots, family values, a sense of belonging.......is a statement about who you are and where you stand in life.

[Book]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/04/10/us/10squatter.span.jpg

:oo-->

With Advocates’ Help, Squatters Call Foreclosures Home

When the woman who calls herself Queen Omega moved into a three-bedroom house here last December, she introduced herself to the neighbors, signed contracts for electricity and water and ordered an Internet connection.

What she did not tell anyone was that she had no legal right to be in the home.

Ms. Omega, 48, is one of the beneficiaries of the foreclosure crisis. Through a small advocacy group of local volunteers called Take Back the Land, she moved from a friend’s couch into a newly empty house that sold just a few years ago for more than $400,000.

Michael Stoops, executive director of the National Coalition for the Homeless, said about a dozen advocacy groups around the country were actively moving homeless people into vacant homes — some working in secret, others, like Take Back the Land, operating openly.

In addition to squatting, some advocacy groups have organized civil disobedience actions in which borrowers or renters refuse to leave homes after foreclosure.

The groups say that they have sometimes received support from neighbors and that beleaguered police departments have not aggressively gone after squatters.

“We’re seeing sheriffs’ departments who are reluctant to move fast on foreclosures or evictions,” said Bill Faith, director of the Coalition on Homelessness and Housing in Ohio, which is not engaged in squatting. “They’re up to their eyeballs in this stuff. Everyone’s overwhelmed.”

On a recent afternoon, Ms. Omega sat on the tiled floor of her unfurnished living room and described plans to use the space to tie-dye clothing and sell it on the Internet, hoping to save some money before she is inevitably forced to leave.

“It’s a beautiful castle, and it’s temporary for me,” she said, “and if I can be here 24 hours, I’m thankful.” In the meantime, she said, she has instructed her adult son not to make noise, to be a good neighbor.

In Minnesota, a group called the Poor People’s Economic Human Rights Campaign recently moved families into 13 empty homes; in Philadelphia, the Kensington Welfare Rights Union maintains seven “human rights houses” shared by 13 families. Cheri Honkala, who is the national organizer for the Minnesota group and was homeless herself once, likened the group’s work to “a modern-day underground railroad,” and said squatters could last up to a year in a house before eviction.

Other groups, including Women in Transition in Louisville, Ky., are looking for properties to occupy, especially as they become frustrated with the lack of affordable housing and the oversupply of empty homes.

Anita Beaty, executive director of the Metro Atlanta Task Force for the Homeless, said her group had been looking into asking banks to give it abandoned buildings to renovate and occupy legally. Ms. Honkala, who was a squatter in the 1980s, said the biggest difference now was that the neighbors were often more supportive. “People who used to say, ‘That’s breaking the law,’ now that they’re living on a block with three or four empty houses, they’re very interested in helping out, bringing over mattresses or food for the families,” she said.

Ben Burton, executive director of the Miami Coalition for the Homeless, said squatting was still relatively rare in the city.

But Take Back the Land has had to compete with less organized squatters, said Max Rameau, the group’s director.

“We had a move-in that we were going to do one day at noon,” he said. “At 10 o’clock in the morning, I went over to the house just to make sure everything was O.K., and squatters took over our squat. Then we went to another place nearby, and squatters were in that place also.”

Mr. Rameau said his group differed from ad hoc squatters by operating openly, screening potential residents for mental illness and drug addiction, and requiring that they earn “sweat equity” by cleaning or doing repairs around the house and that they keep up with the utility bills.

“We change the locks,” he said. “We pull up with a truck and move in through the front door. The families get a key to the front door.” Most of the houses are in poor neighborhoods, where the neighbors are less likely to object.

Kelly Penton, director of communications for the City of Miami, said police officers needed a signed affidavit from a property’s owner — usually a bank — to evict squatters. Representatives from the city’s homeless assistance program then help the squatters find shelter.

more here (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/10/us/10squatter.html)

[FreeEnergy]

book, it's an offtop

[Book]

book, it's an offtop


On topic. Illustrates that anybody can pretend to be the "Owner" as they are squatting, renting out, refinancing, or selling any home now. The mortgage system is so screwed up now that PROVING ownership requires the actual in-your-hand written clear Title. The article I posted says that the Sheriff's department demands as much. I colored that sentence in red so you can ponder the meaning.

:oo-->

[FreeEnergy]

zusn and other folks who think of refinancing - do you believe that this is a lowest rate we'll ever see, or that it will drop further in winter?

I really don't want to pay 5 grand for a refi and then find out that the rates are way lower again, because I see it they way car leases are - you already lost the money you put upfront in fees.

[Sparky]

zusn and other folks who think of refinancing - do you believe that this is a lowest rate we'll ever see, or that it will drop further in winter?

I really don't want to pay 5 grand for a refi and then find out that the rates are way lower again, because I see it they way car leases are - you already lost the money you put upfront in fees.


If you're taking a head count, put me in the category that says we have one more jog down in the interest rate market accompanied by a sharp stock market correction, and it will come within the next 60 days, but the bottom will be brief with an immediate reversal off the bottom. For the lucky ones who can catch the falling knife, you might get 0.50% off the current rates. More likely, expect to get 0.25%. Be ready to act when it happens.

Just my opinion.

[mick silver]

i just sold a house i redid . now i am taking the money i made off the sale an putting it on my main house and land and my refi is 999,00 . bucks.. if your paying more then that you need to look around . after this 50t on my house i will have 4 more years to pay it off . the rate i am getting is 3.75 . fixed

[LuckyStrike]

I really don't want to pay 5 grand for a refi and then find out that the rates are way lower again, because I see it they way car leases are - you already lost the money you put upfront in fees.


5k seems incredibly excessive. My CU is around 1k tops. I would check around for sure.

[zusn]

zusn and other folks who think of refinancing - do you believe that this is a lowest rate we'll ever see, or that it will drop further in winter?

I really don't want to pay 5 grand for a refi and then find out that the rates are way lower again, because I see it they way car leases are - you already lost the money you put upfront in fees.
I don't know if it's the lowest rate we'll ever see. I do know these rates are insanely low compared to the last 40 years. For me, it's all about the numbers. The first time I refinanced 5 years ago, I went from a 30 year to a 20 year and it saved me $68,000 in interest over the life of the loan. I don't remember what it cost for the refi,I know it wasn't $5k, but even if it were would it be worth spending $5k to save yourself $68k?

Numbers don't lie. Look at an amortization chart and see the amount of interest that is paid over the life of your current mortgage and then compare it to the new mortgage. If you do the 30 year and pay it off like a 10 year, you'll be fighting an up hill battle with the high interest payments. Perhaps do a 20 year if you think rates will drop a lot further in the future. It'll save you money and if in a few years rates are 1% or less, it'll be worth refinancing to a 15 or 10 year. Crunch the numbers.