Okay, It's going down, What are we doing?

[owelesstax]

In light of the new rise of Precious Metals (or more appropriately the further decline of the dollar) we've had a lot more interest in our gold and silver pricing, and I've been encouraged by some of our clients to explain it here.

Many of us have purchased gold as a survival plan, in case TSHTF. That, when we come out of the bunkers and the sun is still shining but there is no political or economic infrastructure we'd have a means of trade that would allow us to survive and start building again. Which is prudent, even if very inconvenient.

Inconvenience 1: You have to buy it from a broker that charges a commission.
Inconvenience 2: you have to pay shipping charges.
Inconvenience 3: you have store it. Securely, and all the risks that go along with that.
Inconvenience 4: it is a stagnant asset that never increases.
Inconvenience 5: even if it goes up in value you'd never sell it, so it isn't an investment.
Inconvenience 6: if you did sell it you'd be selling to a broker that again takes a commission and reduces your return.

The "Market Solution" is to buy into a precious Metals Fund. But we all know the “Inconveniences” of that. :sarc: :lies: :boom

So let’s look at this a little differently.

What if we actually moved our plan forward? What if as business owners we started exchanging in gold and silver, not exclusively. . . simply offering gold and silver pricing for our services.
AND looked for business that offered gold and silver pricing to do business with. We’ve been having this discussion with our clients for quite a few years. A few having taken up the challenge. To simply offer their service at a set PM rate in addition to the more volatile FRN rate.
What does this do?
Inconvenience #1, Gone. You now have a small inflow of inflation proof revenue. I wouldn’t expect more than 5-10% of revenue from PMs. #2, no shipping charges when someone can come into your office and pay their bill with the change in their pocket. #3, you still have to store it, but you don’t have to hoard it. #4, you can use it every day, as long as you can find a vendor that accepts it, and as more business owners use the old currency as currency it will be easier to find. #5, PM’s don’t go up in value they are constant, the dollar simply goes down, so now, you can trade it away, there’ll be more coming. #6, no broker commissions.

What else does it do?

It puts you and me back on a gold standard, it takes inflation out of the picture, so we don’t have to run around changing prices every time the Fed make a policy change or Congress decides to spend the next trillion FRNs. In fact an online catalog could be set up to index the price of $X of silver of X number of Gold Eagles. The true “Set it and forget it”. Once it takes hold, if a government agency wanted to buy they’d have to go into the market to buy real PMs not just print more FRNs to pay us.

That was our decision 7 years ago. To offer a pricing structure for our services in Gold/Silver/And Junk Silver Prices.

[owelesstax]

What does that look like?

Here is an example. My company, Nevada Corporate Services, helps successful business owners reduce taxes, limits liability, and protect assets since 1986. We use properly structured corporations in Nevada to do some of these things. One of the services we provide is “Registered Agent Service” (google for description). We do an outstanding job and charge $149 a year (FRN). In 2005 we raised the price from $100. At the time we also implemented “Gold and Silver” Pricing. So, That same Registered Agent Service costs just $10 Silver. And will always cost $10 silver.

We, gave discounts for Gold and Silver because we stood behind this model. I’d rather give a break to someone that understands the economy and was willing to be part of the solution, (solution being A gold and silver backed currency), so at $10 Silver that was about $85 FRN, we committed 15% of the old price to the PM Currency and about 45% against the new price. Many of our clients could see the importance of business getting on a PM standard and this was something they could do without politics. Say someone paid us with PMs because of the discount. And we had found a few vendors that we can use the PMs to make payments. And they are looking for vendors, and they’ll look for vendors, and some of those vendors will need my services. And before you know it, we have a gold/silver backed currency. Do we have to get a majority of the Congress to agree? No we simply have to decide to accept PMs for what we sell and set a price.

I’m looking forward to the day that a grocery store or Chain simply posts Junk Silver pricing for their goods alongside the FRN pricing and has enough coin receptacles to handle a Dime/Quarter/Half/Dollar silver. I’d shop there no matter what coupons I received from the store across the street.

If you are in business, and willing to offer gold and silver pricing, let me know. If there is any interest, I’ll commit to creating an On-line Register of Companies that will accept PMs as payment.

Richard Fritzler
Nevada Corporate Services
Nevadacorporateservices.com
800 658-5105

[mamboni]

What about the IRS? ;D ;D ;D

[osoab]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_DZhk-1hO0

[cedarchopper]

What about the IRS? ;D ;D ;D


Face value and don't exchange for FRN's :]

[crazychicken]

Thank you for the info!

CC





What does that look like?

Here is an example. My company, Nevada Corporate Services, helps successful business owners reduce taxes, limits liability, and protect assets since 1986. We use properly structured corporations in Nevada to do some of these things. One of the services we provide is “Registered Agent Service” (google for description). We do an outstanding job and charge $149 a year (FRN). In 2005 we raised the price from $100. At the time we also implemented “Gold and Silver” Pricing. So, That same Registered Agent Service costs just $10 Silver. And will always cost $10 silver.

We, gave discounts for Gold and Silver because we stood behind this model. I’d rather give a break to someone that understands the economy and was willing to be part of the solution, (solution being A gold and silver backed currency), so at $10 Silver that was about $85 FRN, we committed 15% of the old price to the PM Currency and about 45% against the new price. Many of our clients could see the importance of business getting on a PM standard and this was something they could do without politics. Some have paid us with PMs because of the discount. And we have found a few vendors that we can use the PMs to make payments. And they are looking for vendors, and they’ll look for vendors, and some of those vendors will need my services. And before you know it, we have a gold/silver backed currency. Do we have to get a majority of the Congress to agree? No we simply have to decide to accept PMs for what we sell and set a price.

I’m looking forward to the day that a grocery store or Chain simply posts Junk Silver pricing for their goods alongside the FRN pricing and has enough coin receptacles to handle a Dime/Quarter/Half/Dollar silver. I’d shop there no matter what coupons I received from the store across the street.

If you are in business, and willing to offer gold and silver pricing, let me know. If there is any interest, I’ll commit to creating an On-line Register of Companies that will accept PMs as payment.

Richard Fritzler
Nevada Corporate Services
Nevadacorporateservices.com
800 658-5105

[owelesstax]

What about the IRS? ;D ;D ;D


CedarChopper is correct, let me just give a longer explanation.

Congress has created multiple currencies, all legitimate. They mint Gold Eagle, They mint 999 Gold Buffaloes Both with Face Value printed right on it of $50. The Federal Gov't mints Silver Eagles, and Commemoratives, One Oz is one Dollar. They authorize the Fed to print FRNs, and they have mints that create coins for circulation. It is up to us to choose which form we are willing to take. It is illegal for a vending machine to NOT accept FRNs? No, many don't, some do, to make it easier for potential buyer to pay. So that is your choice, opening up your processes to accept more forms of legally minted US currency.

Your IRS question really goes back to the list of the inconveniences, #7, when hording, if you do exchange it for FRNs you have to pay a tax, even though you really didn't get an increase in buying power. The IRS has determined, as a fallback position, after getting beat up in a few court cases that the tax on a precious metal coin is due at the time the precious metal is exchanged for FRNs. Just as any collectible.

So, in this plan, I'm not exchanging for FRNs, I'm keeping them in their original form, as currency.

A buck is a buck.

[owelesstax]

And when we look at it in a historical perspective, it become very simple and clear.

In 1964, when I was just a toddler, it cost a dime to buy a candy bar. That dime was 90% silver. 3 months ago, it would still cost that same dime to buy a similarly sized candy bar. you take any item from 1964 and compare it to today, it probably costs about the same in dimes, quarters, and halves. With the recent spike in Silver that dime would buy more than one candy bar, but that simply indicates that candy bars will be costing more or shrinking due to inflation.

If we take the wayback machine to 1927, when gold coins were common, if you could find anything that you could buy today and then, it would cost about the same. How much does a horse cost. . . Today? and if you were paying for it in 1927 $20 gold Pieces? A good horse is over a grand today, and then it was maybe $20. Hmmm. A nice home? Land? Cattle, furniture?

This discussion is for those that are in business, if you are a straight w-2 employee there is nothing that can be done. You'll still need to buy gold from brokers to make purchases in this currency. Hopefully there are business owners that like myself are willing to make it worth your while (in discounts) to make that effort.

[osoab]

And when we look at it in a historical perspective, it become very simple and clear.

In 1964, when I was just a toddler, it cost a dime to buy a candy bar. That dime was 90% silver. 3 months ago, it would still cost that same dime to buy a similarly sized candy bar. you take any item from 1964 and compare it to today, it probably costs about the same in dimes, quarters, and halves. With the recent spike in Silver that dime would buy more than one candy bar, but that simply indicates that candy bars will be costing more or shrinking due to inflation.

If we take the wayback machine to 1927, when gold coins were common, if you could find anything that you could buy today and then, it would cost about the same. How much does a horse cost. . . Today? and if you were paying for it in 1927 $20 gold Pieces? A good horse is over a grand today, and then it was maybe $20. Hmmm. A nice home? Land? Cattle, furniture?

This discussion is for those that are in business, if you are a straight w-2 employee there is nothing that can be done. You'll still need to buy gold from brokers to make purchases in this currency. Hopefully there are business owners that like myself are willing to make it worth your while (in discounts) to make that effort.


I have a small side business. When I have discuss the option of paying in silver, they pull a clad quarter out of their pocket. :D

[mightymanx]

Before you folks go nuts on this concept you should do some research on Mr Kahre and see how that went for him.

Bottom line if you get too big or known the government WILL find/make a way to stop you.

http://www.lvrj.com/news/26825989.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VJ3son-ha8

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=23766

The government also went after blogers (like me ) who posted on the papers site they demanded the names and logins of all blogers for the only paper that was violating the media black out.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/06/atlas-commenters-youre-on-notice-big-o-is-watching.html

[owelesstax]

Before you folks go nuts on this concept you should do some research on Mr Kahre and see how that went for him.


Mr. Kahre was trying to scam payroll taxes. Not deal in simple commerce. This was actually the court case that I referenced, in the "fall Back Position" Statement. The IRS failed miserably on the first round of charges. Kahre was off. The IRS adjusted their position and filed a different set of charges.

But Kahre was flagrantly promoting a tax dodge, and was in the business of facilitating the Non-Payment of Payroll taxes. At least if you actually read the information and case history.

In my post above, I pointed out that Payrolled employees aren't players in this, "income and outgo, transactional economy".




Bottom line if you get too big or known the government WILL find/make a way to stop you.


Granted, this can't be a politically driven heavily organized movement, it can't even be a grass roots movement that is promoted through media attention, it simply can be a decision by a few or many to open up their lines of commerce. You don't have to throw it in anyones face.


The government also went after blogers (like me ) who posted on the papers site they demanded the names and logins of all blogers for the only paper that was violating the media black out.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/06/atlas-commenters-youre-on-notice-big-o-is-watching.html



These are the risks we take when we hold ourselves out to do business, that someone may not like us and stand opposed. But that applies if they don't like the way you change your logo. http://articles.cnn.com/2010-10-12/tech/gap.logo.social.media_1_new-logo-twitter-accounts-facebook-post?_s=PM:TECH

[owelesstax]

I have a small side business. When I have discuss the option of paying in silver, they pull a clad quarter out of their pocket. :D


"That's not silver" is a honest statement.

[mightymanx]

ducking sales taxes by using gold or silver vice FRN's is no different than ducking payroll taxes.

Do you list the spot price at the point of sale as your income equivalant value when you file taxes or do you list $10 as in your example?

Either way you are "evading taxes" What Kahre did was get known. If you get on the radar you will be the next case of "tax evasion".

They run radio ads requesting citizens report "underground economy users" in Washington State right now. Citizens need to call the hotline if they "suspect" people of using the "underground economy" even if they charge sales tax. The ads specifically cal out contractors and service providers.

if you are getting away with it I am all for it but if you are known they will get you in time.

[mike88]

underground economy users? haven't heard any ads, i live in vancouver. is that shit for real? must be getting desperate with the unemployment rate so high. so what do the idiots do, try to collect more taxes to drive productive workers away. what government drone came up with the radio ad plan, guess he saw the pension fund hole and wants to get proactive. .parasitic fuckwads the lot of them.

[mightymanx]

underground economy users? haven't heard any ads, i live in vancouver. is that sh*t for real? must be getting desperate with the unemployment rate so high. so what do the idiots do, try to collect more taxes to drive productive workers away. what government drone came up with the radio ad plan, guess he saw the pension fund hole and wants to get proactive. .parasitic f*ckwads the lot of them.


Yep it's real I heard it on the Seattle area radio stations.
Here is the State report on it.

http://www.leg.wa.gov/JointCommittees/UECI/Documents/112009/UE%20Draft%20Benchmark%20Report.pdf

here is an exerpt from the suspect fraud site


Report unlicensed businesses
Provide information about an unlicensed business for compliance officers to investigate. Report fraud online or call 1-800-647-7706.


http://dor.wa.gov/Content/ContactUs/SuspectFraud.aspx

[owelesstax]

The Tax dodge points are all good ones, and I didn't start this discussion to recommend a tax avoidance or evasion scheme, of any kind. Nor should we as successful business owners lose focus on doing good business and get distracted into doing things wrong, when doing things right is the way to "stay in business". Staying in business needs to be the primary goal. Making an extra couple bucks can't be the goal. Now is not the time to really churn the market for yourself. Now you need to conservatively preserve your market. Do good husbandry. Be a model of propriety even if it costs you, right now. Bad busisiness won't get away with what bad business got away with before. Now is a great time to grow a business, resources are available, workforce is available, competition is less, and the noise from the hucksters is at an all time low. this not a time to reap. It is a time to sow.

So take heed of all the points. Don't do dirty things, otherwise you will look dirty. Pay all the taxes that are owed. when it comes to scamming any tax, Payroll, Sales, Income, the penalty is too high. You lose everything, you lose your business, your income, your freedom. . . all for a few pieces of silver or gold.

For the sales tax, if nothing else, you could pay it "in kind". So what. 8.756493% of a bag of junk silver is about $87.60.

[owelesstax]

And for those that are beating the drum of "gold and silver will fall in value" there is no faster way to prove that right than to get more of into circulation. If it is freely available in the market, and always readily available, then there won't be spikes in Market Value.

As an example, someone might promote a run on seeds to start gardens. . . that there will be shortage, and they will be vital for survival. But as long as you can get as much as what from the local walmart, or the grocery store not to mention all the nurseries around, the price of those seeds stays pretty constant.

So if I was a believer that GoldBugs are just flat wrong. I could accelerate the proof by flooding the cashflow market with gold and silver coins. Making them common, every day objects, and available to everyone that wants. No one would care about hording them if they can get as much as they want any time they want. You'll prove you're right, I'll give you a discount, you win both ways.

[etc]

What about the IRS? ;D ;D ;D


Congress has created multiple currencies, all legitimate. They mint Gold Eagle, They mint 999 Gold Buffaloes Both with Face Value printed right on it of $50.


Or maybe none legitimate, as these different currencies have different values, creating a system of chaos. What is a dollar?

Is it the "George Washington" paper FRN?

Or 4 base metal quarters? Or 100 zinc cents?

Or 1 silver ounce?

Or 1/50 of 1 oz $50 gold Eagle?

Or an 'Eisenhower' dollar?

All of these have drastically different values.

furthermore, a $20 Note is exactly the same as a $1 Note, but the face value is 20 times greater. Yet common sense suggests that a thing cannot be 20 greater than an identical thing.

The monetary system in US is in a state of madness, chaos and absurdity.

Those who try to create order out of chaos are striken down, building the foundation for TSHTF.

[etc]

RE Tax dodging..

congress mints various concurrent (and conflicting) currencies yet some of them are not legal tender (exactly the ones that *are* legal tender, i.e. composed of PMs which is the lithmus test of legal tender currency)

So a silver ounce Silver Eagle that says $1 on it is not really $1 as it cannot be used to pay someone in that capacity. The monetary system is in a clear state of psychosis. It says a thing is one thing and then immediately contradicts it and says it's the opposite, and that 2 + 2 = -7.