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Twisted Titan
19th October 2010, 02:14 PM
The Normalization of Sociopathology in America (October 16, 2010)



http://www.oftwominds.com/blogoct10/normalized-pathologies10-10.html


The moral rot at the center of American life results from a normalization of pathologies--sociopathic and psychopathic states and behaviors are now "normal" or incentivized. Moral behavior is institutionally punished.
My entry on the moral rot which has taken hold in all socio-economic levels of America drew a number of insightful responses: Runaway Feedback Loops, Wealth Concentration and Gaming-The-System (October 13, 2010).

While the American/Western worldview holds that we are autonomous individuals exercising free will at every moment, in reality we are all heavily programmed by our socio-economic class conditions. What is so striking about present-day America is the way in which the narcissistic, no-moral-compass social pathologies of entitlement, denial and fabrication of "truth"/reality has been "normalized" (accepted as normal behavior and thinking) in all social classes.

Before we analyze that further, let's get some direct experiences from three observant readers.

First up in Freeacre, one of the proprietors of the excellent Trout Clan Campfire blog:


Here are my examples (of the feedback loops you described):
Thirty-one years ago, when I was pregnant with my son, a friend in San Francisco explained to me that I should go down and apply for welfare. He told me the the social workers basically tell you the right answers to give when applying. They ask the question and you just say agree with whatever it is. That's the game. (I didn't do it, choosing to marry the father of our child and live a life of penury instead...)

2) We finally were able to buy a house in Portland. Our next door neighbor lived in one exactly like ours. But, she was divorced and had two kids. Her kids went to church school for free, got free clothing and medical care, her mom collected her rent from the state, she got food stamps, and on and on. Her ex even got a penile implant due to an unfortunate motorcycle accident! We ended up losing our home and car and having to declare bankruptcy due to our son's medical bills for cancer.

3) Years later, when my husband got cancer and I had to pay his COBRA payments up front, I had hardly any money for food or the house payment from my job at the Tahoe Daily Tribune. When I inquired what we could do to qualify for some assistance, the social worker said, "get a divorce." We did not.

4) Time and again, I find myself donating food, clothing, toys, etc. to "single moms" who live in more attractive homes than I do, with children who have more than my grandchildren, and who live with men who make more money than mine.

5) I recently attended a Food Summit - all about supporting sustainable locally produced food. At the end of the conference, a blanket announcement went out for any of us eligible for food stamps to not hesitate to sign up. "It's good for Oregon!" they announced. It brings in more money from the federal government!

And you know what? I'm considering it. If I don't have to lie to get it, I just might do it. With social security getting no increase again this year and the banksters getting more billions in bonuses and congress getting their increases, well, I think I am having a "'f*** 'em" moment as well.

Reader Don describes conditions which show the incentives to game the system and the disincentives to be honest and hard-working are not new dynamics in the culture:


Enjoyed today's post on the abuse of the welfare system. This is old hat to the "underclass". I managed Section 8 buildings in the '80s and most of the tenants, although without assets, lived better than my working poor, non Section 8 tenants. The tenant's share of Section 8 rent was usually in the double digits (I recall one tenant who couldnt manage to pay her $19 rent more than once every 4 or 5 months...), all of them got food stamps, medical care, the kids got school lunches etc. And in the 1980s, before friends of mine had color TVs, some of these apartments had one in every room of the five room apartments.
Perhaps most frustrating to me was that in the vast majority of households, the single mother had a working man in the house, but the welfare folks werent allowed to ask about it.

From your post, it looks like the working poor and the middle class have figured out the scam as well.

Anonymous Physician provides the context to understand both the ubiquity of Corporate Welfare/entitlement/cheating and the standard-issue welfare entitlement and gaming:


I have a great deal of experience with the poor, the very poor, the rich, and a few of the ultra-rich. Some accident of fate also gave me direct clinical contact with a least 6 serial killers (in custody) for extended periods. It is certain (i.e.; self-evident to the prepared consciousness as per Aristotle's definition of truth) that our current crisis of culture, political economy and political life is fundamentally related to the long-emerging filters on the roads to power and influence that now assure that cluster B personality types (sociopathic/ pyschopathic, narcissistic and to lesser degrees borderline and histrionic) dominate, in number as well as influence, all major institutions in this "country" as well as most of the rest of the world. (emphasis added) This state of affairs, in its extent, is historically unprecedented.
This is no counsel of despair. Goodness, the ethical will, as a potentiality, is proportionally much more frequent than the evil will in humanity but it must be cultivated and it demands truthfulness and willingness to sacrifice for its actualization.

Thank you, readers, for your insightful commentaries.

Here is my analysis, which as always is drawn from the foundation established in the Survival+ critique.

The depth of our own pathology can be measured by our resistance to admitting the systemic fraud, lying, entitlement and narcissistic pathologies in whatever slice of American society we value. For example, Liberals experience an overwhelming urge to excuse or deny welfare fraud and indeed, all the pathologies of the "underclass."

That is a direct measure of their own internal normalization of social pathologies.

Conservatives experience an overwhelming urge to excuse or deny Corporate Welfare and the partnership/collusion of the Central State (which they fear) and Crony Capitalism (which they revere, even though it is only a simulacrum of classic free-market capitalism).

To the degree that an individual dismisses cheating on tests in school, fabricated resumes, bogus balance sheets and dishonest mortgage applications and tax returns because "everybody does it," the sociopathologies have been fully absorbed as not just normal but as beneficial and acceptable.

Though we like to favor ourselves as autonomous entities brimming with individuality, most of our worldview and behaviors are programmed by our social-economic status and conditioning.

Consider how easily the behaviors and values of most Americans fall into three basic classes in American culture which are remarkable predictors of worldviews and largely unconscious "values" and behaviors.

This reality is part of what I term the politics of experience: we can't experience the "water" we swim in until we consciously occupy another more objective perch which is informed by history and the awareness of who benefits from the normalization of various beliefs and behaviors.

The "working class" is programmed to rely on television for most of its "information" about life, and thus they are programmed to:

1. Consume copious quantities of fast foods and convenience foods, and consider indolence a luxury. As a result, they are programmed to become obese/diabetic.

2. The boys are programmed to favor football and basketball in sports, service in the Armed Forces as the only viable choice to low-skill, fitful employment, to drop out of four-year college if pressured to enter, and vocational training, often paid for by the G.I. Bill after military service.

3. Males are programmed to place identity value on their vehicles and real-world "manly" skills (working on vehicles, farm equipment, woodworking, etc.), but their programmed aspirations are aimed at impossibly narrow fields: professional sports, hip-hop and other entertainment, etc. As a result, their real-world skills are generally undeveloped or modest.

In essence, they are programmed to fail in the "knowledge economy" and in real-world practical jobs which are not glorified by the broadcast media. They accept low-level work and are dissatisfied, often turning to drugs to relieve their ennui.

4. Their interests are channeled by the media into extreme sports, mixed martial arts, auto racing, football, etc., but they are programmed to express these interests through passive video games rather than by real-world experience. Programmed to low confidence, they generally give up quickly when faced with arduous training, except when forced by institutions such as the Military.

5. Working class families have few resources to draw upon, and the mobility favored by Corporate America has shredded the social networks which once offered support (church membership, social clubs, neighborhoods, etc.) Family "help" is a sofa to sleep on at a relatives' house.

6. The girls are programmed to have sex and children early, as motherhood has positive identity value, even if they are woefully unprepared for parenting. Career choices tend to be "pink collar" type labor in Corporate America's sickcare system or government jobs; females are programmed to support their children and demand little of the fathers. Dependency on the State /Welfare in one form or another is the norm.

7. Politics holds little interest and most of the working class are programmed not to vote as it "never does any good anyway."

8. There are few books or other reading materials around the house, little to no original decorative art, few musical instruments that can actually be played with any joy or expertise; the lived environment is a cultural desert. The TV and a computer offer distraction and entertainment and little else. If they pursue social media, they are members of My Space and Facebook. They are deeply attached to their cellphones, which are perceived as markers of accessible status. Passports are unknown; foreign travel is experienced through military service only.

The "middle class" aspires to the "upper class" life they see on television and other media, but their aspirations are for the trappings of wealth rather than for the engines of wealth.

1. Though the middle class person clings mightily to various totems of "membership" in the middle class, and experiences tremendous loss of identity and self-esteem when these totems are lost, in reality their wealth is modest and they have few family resources.

2. Though they watch a lot of TV, they also consume massive quantities of other low-value media through the electronic devices they see as emblematic of the "middle class" lifestyle: laptop computers, iPods, etc. Their cellphones and other electronics are key identity markers: the higher the status of the brand, the more valuable the device. Apple products are de riguer "high status."

3. Books and reading materials around the house tend to be best sellers or materials assigned in class; few households receive newspapers or magazines other than National Geographic. If books are read, they are genre books such as mysteries. Dog-eared copies of the Harry Potter series abound. Those households which aspire to "upper class" education may subcribe to a few magazines which are viewed as totems of high-class lifestyles: The New Yorker, Saveur, etc.

4. "Education" is valued but mastery is not; the goal is to obtain the certificate or paper required by gatekeepers in the government or Corporate America, not the actual skillsets. Though education is "valued," few households (regardless of income, which is often high) save religiously enough to fund university educations; borrowing vast sums of student loans is the norm. Adult education is pursued to obtain the same gatekeeper certificates in whatever field the adults toil in. Learning for the pleasure of learning is unknown or deemed a waste of time when "we could be having fun."

"Enrichment" classes are provided to the children, but the purpose is to gain a veneer of respectability as an aspirant to upper-class membership; piano lessons are dutifully offered but nobody plays music in the house for enjoyment, so the lessons are soon dropped. Live performances are also attended occasionally as "enrichment." Foreign travel is experienced via college programs or packaged tours fit into 2-week vacations allowed by Corporate America.

5. Favored sports include soccer and volleyball for the girls, and skateboarding and baseball for the boys. Team sports are favored over individual competition, and adults spend significant time ferrying kids to various after-school sports, which are deemed "character-building."

6. Ownership of status brands is highly important; brand consciousness is acute. Target is favored over Wal-Mart, and designer-luxury brand purses, shoes, autos, etc. are highly desirable "markers" of success and identity. Most of the family income goes to paying for these "markers" of membership.

7. A four-year college degree is the goal, with an MBA or master's degree considered a higher-level enabler of a better career. The cherished goal is acceptance to an elite university which is viewed as a magical ticket to "fast track" advancement in the government or Corporate America. Meritocracy is accepted as the norm. Military service is shunned in favor of attending college right out of high school. Favored social media are related to career/corporate advancement: LinkedIn, etc. Foreign films and chic dining are valued as "markers" of high-class status.

The upper class has the confidence born of the knowledge that the family resources can always bail one out. High-paying jobs will be provided via networks; art-aspirant careers are highly valued, and family resources enable dilletante dabbling in acting, film-making, visual arts, etc.

Entrance to prep schools and family money/connections enable entrance to institutions the middle class must gain entrance to via meritocracy.

Favored careers include venture capital, high-status government positions, management of family businesses, plum slots in NGOs, etc. Noblesse Oblige is served via membership on boards of charities, the local symphony and museum, etc. These networks provide connections to business opportunities unavailable to the middle class.

Children already get passports and foreign travel to exotic locales is standard. Middle-class aspirants are viewed paternalistically or with scorn; they are worker-bees for the Corporate America/State owned or managed by the upper class. The working class is avoided except as servants, who are often immigrants.

My point is that to varying degrees, the normalization of narcissism and social pathologies is now embedded in the programming of all social classes. The rot in America is not limited to "deviance" in any one class; it is present in various manifestations in all social classes.

Tweaking policies and gaming the gaming will not "cure" what ails America. Moral will "must be cultivated and it demands truthfulness and willingness to sacrifice for its actualization." Until we are prepared to make those sacrifices, then the rot will only deepen.

Luis337
19th October 2010, 03:29 PM
interesting read, thanks for posting.

Ponce
19th October 2010, 04:40 PM
Good read, thanks............we need more people like me in this country, normal people............did I say that? ???

Silver Shield
19th October 2010, 04:56 PM
I keep saying over and over...


Things that cannot go on forever, WON'T!




Bring on the collapse.

Hatha Sunahara
19th October 2010, 06:11 PM
Makes me wonder if this is the goal of all the social engineering we've been subjected to, or just a byproduct of it.

The real problem is that we are all pressed hard to conform and obey, and that money trumps morality. Those of us who don't question this are fools.


Hatha

Book
19th October 2010, 06:22 PM
Bring on the collapse.



http://www.geoffreyjames.com/bigstockphoto_Office_slacker_724297.jpg

I'm not lifting a finger to keep it going anymore. Bring on the collapse.

:)

keehah
20th October 2010, 04:38 AM
The soccer moms are Gaulting.

Silver Rocket Bitches!
20th October 2010, 06:57 AM
This article rings of truth that we all bear witness to every single day.

There is only one solution.

http://www.acus.org/files/images/ResetButton.preview.jpg

gunDriller
20th October 2010, 07:43 AM
Dog-eared copies of the Harry Potter series abound.


why do they mention Harry Potter ?

SLV^GLD
20th October 2010, 07:52 AM
Because Harry Potter novels are recognizable as the lowest common denominator for the literate American.
Dr Seuss probably has more literary muscle and was a product of counterculture so it doesn't get the vote.

Ash_Williams
20th October 2010, 08:12 AM
Life on this planet is based on taking shortcuts. Humans aren't even possible without shortcuts... imagine us trying to power ourselves with photosynthesis instead of eating the plants that do it (or eating the animals that eat them.) Things that eat plants didn't exist before plants did. Carnivorous predators didn't exist before herbivores.

When you put in the opportunity for a shortcut, it will be taken advantage of. That is life. A degree is a shortcut as far as just seeing it opens the doors for many jobs, so the goal is to get that degree (without it being necessary to gain the knowledge that degree is supposed to represent.) With that in mind, cheating on a test also makes perfect sense, if the test is easy to cheat on. Once piece of paper leading to another.

Welfare, food stamps, free money. The goal is money, so why not take the money without doing the work if possible? That's life again. We eat plants, we don't do the photosynthesis ourselves, and we don't feel bad about it.

If the "sociopathic" trends are to stop, we have to get rid of what leads to them. Predators exist because prey exists and that's how life works. If you keep creating programs that beg to be taken advantage of, they will be taken advantage of.

There is no utopia possible where programs exist and are only used appreciative people who truly need them and we're all happy about it and hold hands and twirl around in the flowers. Our nature and our genetic makeup is first to survive and to take advantage of situations. The only systems that can work are ones that take this into account.

If you try to do what we are doing you always end up in the same place, which is where we are now, with more and more people taking advantage of the system. The people paying into the system are just the food for the people using the system. People cannot be changed permanently... you can brainwash some into being weaker and this backfires by giving more reward and incentive for being strong.

With something like the food stamp system, the weak position is to pay into it. The strong position is to take from it, or at least try to avoid giving to it. If enough people took the strong position, the system would break.

Silver Rocket Bitches!
20th October 2010, 08:37 AM
With something like the food stamp system, the weak position is to pay into it. The strong position is to take from it, or at least try to avoid giving to it. If enough people took the strong position, the system would break.


So you propose that MORE people climb up to the government trough in order to break the system? There are over 40 million people on food stamps, the system is on its way to critical mass by itself.

The food stamps are about control. People don't want to bit the hand that feeds them. Why do you think at all turns people are being turned away from self reliance and being shown how easy it is to get a food stamp card?

The government wants you on food stamps because that means you are now a slave to the government as you depend on them.

mick silver
20th October 2010, 08:42 AM
what did you say ............................ i have a buzzing sound in my ears ...

Liquid
20th October 2010, 09:36 AM
The government wants you on food stamps because that means you are now a slave to the government as you depend on them.


Bingo, and the root cause is the sense of entitlement that's pushed by the media, also by the government.

The closest grocery store near me, is in a less than desirable area. Hence, lot's of folks on food stamps go there. Several times I've been approached to participate in a food stamp scam. Basically works like this, they use food stamps to buy my groceries, and I am to give them cash, at a discount of course, outside the store. They then have cash for booze, etc.

Every time I decline....and every time this has happened these people got very pushy, almost to the point of fighting. Not only did they feel entitled to free food, but also entitled to my cash as well.

Everyone's entitled to everything these days in our country. Nobody wants to work for it.

Yeah, I agree, bring on the collapse. Perhaps that's the only way to fix this.

I'm turning my rant on now...and the more and more I am getting fucking sick of this shit. 3 times this month, 3 times I've almost got into fights living in this damn city. All from people approaching and demanding things from me, money for beer, food stamps, fucking guy drove up as I was leaving the bank the other day, ask for a 20 for gas for the airport, got beligerent, I had to threaten him to leave so he wouldn't bother other folks.

I'm tired of this shit. People are getting more and more aggressive each day it seems.

Book
20th October 2010, 09:42 AM
http://www.ccun.org/images/2009/February/12%20p/Wall%20Street%20Bankers%20Testify%20in%20Congress% 2011f9xin.jpg

Bankster CEOs before congress begging for more bailouts.

:oo-->

Ash_Williams
20th October 2010, 10:01 AM
So you propose that MORE people climb up to the government trough in order to break the system? There are over 40 million people on food stamps, the system is on its way to critical mass by itself.

Yes. Everyone who even comes close to qualifying, should go for it, even if they don't need it. Collapsing it is the only solution. Don't be angry at the people abusing the system, as they (probably without knowing it) are the only ones working hardest to destroy it! Give them the rope to hang themselves.

ShortJohnSilver
20th October 2010, 10:17 AM
The closest grocery store near me, is in a less than desirable area. Hence, lot's of folks on food stamps go there. Several times I've been approached to participate in a food stamp scam. Basically works like this, they use food stamps to buy my groceries, and I am to give them cash, at a discount of course, outside the store. They then have cash for booze, etc.



Actually they are given title to the property after they buy it and walk out of the store, thus it is theirs at that point.

For me, I would recommend you DO participate ... a cheap way to get preps at a discount! Go for evaporated milk in cans, 10-lb bags of sugar, King Arthur brand flour (they don't use GMO wheat), etc.

Ash_Williams
20th October 2010, 10:57 AM
The closest grocery store near me, is in a less than desirable area. Hence, lot's of folks on food stamps go there. Several times I've been approached to participate in a food stamp scam. Basically works like this, they use food stamps to buy my groceries, and I am to give them cash, at a discount of course, outside the store. They then have cash for booze, etc.

I'd totally be into that. I don't like going in those stores anyway, so if someone did the shopping for me and gave me a discount that's pretty awesome.

Liquid
20th October 2010, 11:20 AM
I'd totally be into that. I don't like going in those stores anyway, so if someone did the shopping for me and gave me a discount that's pretty awesome.


Ethically, it's the wrong thing to do though. For me that is. I will not go against my principles to profit. Those people are trying to cheat the system, the same one that's bailing them out. Actually, that makes them very similar to the banksters!! haha..

Silver Rocket Bitches!
20th October 2010, 11:50 AM
I'd totally be into that. I don't like going in those stores anyway, so if someone did the shopping for me and gave me a discount that's pretty awesome.


Ethically, it's the wrong thing to do though. For me that is. I will not go against my principles to profit. Those people are trying to cheat the system, the same one that's bailing them out. Actually, that makes them very similar to the banksters!! haha..


Agreed. When we do have the collapse and the inevitable rebuild, it will be important for folks to adopt the new system with fortitude. Gaming the system now is conditioning yourself to game ANY system that is adopted. Part of not participating in the current system is to adopt morals that contrast with the banksters and their greed. Take food stamps if you are faced with hunger but forego them otherwise. Eat mac and cheese with pride knowing it was your capital that paid for it. Don't give in to the temptations put forth no matter how bad you want to justify such actions.

Would you tell your children to go for food stamps if they could afford their own food yet still qualified based on the current lax standards?

The principled people of today will be the leaders of tomorrow after the collapse.

Ash_Williams
20th October 2010, 12:24 PM
Agreed. When we do have the collapse and the inevitable rebuild, it will be important for folks to adopt the new system with fortitude. Gaming the system now is conditioning yourself to game ANY system that is adopted. Part of not participating in the current system is to adopt morals that contrast with the banksters and their greed. Take food stamps if you are faced with hunger but forego them otherwise. Eat mac and cheese with pride knowing it was your capital that paid for it. Don't give in to the temptations put forth no matter how bad you want to justify such actions.

If the new system can be gamed it will end the same as this one is ending. Someone will game any system that is open to it, that is inevitable.

The only effect of not gaming the system is harming yourself and allowing the system to survive longer.


Would you tell your children to go for food stamps if they could afford their own food yet still qualified based on the current lax standards?

For sure. Maybe then they can take my tax dollars and use it on something useful rather than the others that will spend their food stamps on twinkies or sell them for beer.



The principled people of today will be the leaders of tomorrow after the collapse.
That could be true but you're missing part of it. There are principles and then there are tactics. Your principles may be saying the system is wrong, as mine do. But, if your tactics are to simply keep paying into the system then you are not accomplishing anything. Your tactics have to have some positive effect or your principles will be self-destructive.

Silver Rocket Bitches!
20th October 2010, 01:30 PM
The principled people of today will be the leaders of tomorrow after the collapse.
That could be true but you're missing part of it. There are principles and then there are tactics. Your principles may be saying the system is wrong, as mine do. But, if your tactics are to simply keep paying into the system then you are not accomplishing anything. Your tactics have to have some positive effect or your principles will be self-destructive.
[/quote]

I can see your logic however I feel those who are accepting the food stamps without legitimate need are but common thieves regardless of the justification or strategy. It's akin to swiping your platinum card to the max to buy the latest gadget because you feel the banks deserve your default after their bailouts.

Remember, prior to 1929, before the socialist programs, the citizens of this country vehemently refused ALL government assistance. Self reliance was the key. I don't want to adopt a strategy that dictates otherwise.

What you are saying to me is the ends justifies the means. That is the motto of the Illuminati.

Twisted Titan
20th October 2010, 01:31 PM
With something like the food stamp system, the weak position is to pay into it. The strong position is to take from it, or at least try to avoid giving to it. If enough people took the strong position, the system would break.


So you propose that MORE people climb up to the government trough in order to break the system? There are over 40 million people on food stamps, the system is on its way to critical mass by itself.

The food stamps are about control. People don't want to bit the hand that feeds them. Why do you think at all turns people are being turned away from self reliance and being shown how easy it is to get a food stamp card?

The government wants you on food stamps because that means you are now a slave to the government as you depend on them.






Food is Power......We use it to change behavior.
Some may call that bribery......We do not apologize."

Catherine Bertini Executive director U.N. World Food Program, Beijing, China
Source: U.N. 4th World Conference on Women, September, 1995

Ash_Williams
20th October 2010, 03:22 PM
I can see your logic however I feel those who are accepting the food stamps without legitimate need are but common thieves regardless of the justification or strategy. It's akin to swiping your platinum card to the max to buy the latest gadget because you feel the banks deserve your default after their bailouts.

I'll admit, that seems a little low, and at first I read that and thought maybe it's unjustified. But, if you had your tax dollars taken by no choice of your own, with no benefit to yourself, I can see that making sense. They took from you, so you are taking from them. If the gov and banks had feared that kind of simple revenge, the bailouts would never have happened.


Remember, prior to 1929, before the socialist programs, the citizens of this country vehemently refused ALL government assistance. Self reliance was the key. I don't want to adopt a strategy that dictates otherwise.

I'm not really suggesting people rely on the gov food, I'm just suggesting they take it as a tactic to fight against the system. I mean if I found myself unemployed I'd take the benefits for all they're worth, even thought I don't really need them, simply because I see that involuntary deduction from my paycheck every two weeks and I don't like it.


What you are saying to me is the ends justifies the means. That is the motto of the Illuminati.

Nope. I'm just saying I'm ok with the means!
I wouldn't feel good about punching someone randomly on the street, but if they punched me first I would hit them back. They struck us first. No one asked me if I wanted to pay x number of dollars towards all these systems - they just took it. I'll take it back. The concept of revenge goes a long way to keeping order in the world. If people feel bad about striking back, it shifts the balance in favor of the people who feel good about punching them.

Imagine the elected officials sitting around, contemplating a new tax but then realizing that if they collect $1000 from joe sixpack and spend it on something stupid, that joe is going to get pissed off and make a point of getting his $1000 back one way or another.

If someone breaks into your house and steals your TV, then are you allowed to break into their house and take it back? I say yes (although otherwise I oppose breaking into houses and taking things.) That's why I'm ok with the means here.

Liquid
20th October 2010, 03:37 PM
Ash, you make some very good points, however I think you are trying to justify lowering yourself to their level. I don't think we should lower ourselves to their level of thievery. We need to stand tall and back our beliefs, and if that means some sacrifices, so be it, imo.

Book
20th October 2010, 06:17 PM
The principled people of today will be the leaders of tomorrow after the collapse.



When were "principled people" ever the leaders?

Name names.

:oo-->

Ash_Williams
21st October 2010, 07:02 AM
Ash, you make some very good points, however I think you are trying to justify lowering yourself to their level. I don't think we should lower ourselves to their level of thievery. We need to stand tall and back our beliefs, and if that means some sacrifices, so be it, imo.

I used to think that way. In the last few years though, I've seen that unless you hit back, they will never leave you alone. We all know that as a solution to physical bullying, but we don't apply it to this more subtle bullying by the system.

There is a concept out there that personal vengeance is wrong in some way. You should sit back and let the authorities or god handle your problems. I call BS on that. It's an idea forced on us to make us weak. And it totally fails when the authorities are the problem.

Twisted Titan
21st October 2010, 07:27 AM
Ash, you make some very good points, however I think you are trying to justify lowering yourself to their level. I don't think we should lower ourselves to their level of thievery. We need to stand tall and back our beliefs, and if that means some sacrifices, so be it, imo.

I used to think that way. In the last few years though, I've seen that unless you hit back, they will never leave you alone. We all know that as a solution to physical bullying, but we don't apply it to this more subtle bullying by the system.

There is a concept out there that personal vengeance is wrong in some way. You should sit back and let the authorities or god handle your problems. I call BS on that. It's an idea forced on us to make us weak. And it totally fails when the authorities are the problem.




I concur with Brother Ash



THE ONLY THING THAT POWER WILL EVERY RESPECT..........IS FORCE.

THAT IS THE WHOLE OF THE LAW

Silver Rocket Bitches!
21st October 2010, 08:46 AM
The principled people of today will be the leaders of tomorrow after the collapse.



When were "principled people" ever the leaders?

Name names.

:oo-->


http://www.foundersofamerica.com/images_foundersgallery/350w/350w_FFNQAR01.jpg