Excellent presentation tha explains the debt money system.

[BillBoard]

This is an excellent presentation that explains how the debt money system works.

http://www.thetwofacesofmoney.com/files/money.pdf

[Filthy Keynes]

I"ve been looking for something like that for a long time. I'm only half way through it and I can see it's usefulness in helping me explain the FRAUD of our monetary system. Thanks a million for that link!

[BrewTech]

I"ve been looking for something like that for a long time. I'm only half way through it and I can see it's usefulness in helping me explain the FRAUD of our monetary system. Thanks a million for that link!


The monetary system has been my main point of focus in trying to get folks to at least take a glimpse into the light... stuff like this really helps... thanks for posting!

[Twisted Titan]

“I am afraid that the ordinary citizen will not like to be told that the banks can, and do, create money. The amount of money in existence varies only with the action of the banks in increasing and decreasing deposits and bank purchases. Every loan, overdraft, or bank purchase creates a deposit and every repayment of a loan, overdraft or bank sale destroys a deposit. And they who control the credit of a nation direct the policy of governments, and hold in the hollow of their hands the destiny of the people.”


Reginald McKenna – Chancellor of the Exchequer

[cthulu]

I tried to explain this to some of the foreigners at my work place. The minute they came here they were in massive debt because they needed a car to work, credit cards to buy stuff, which meant they needed a social security number. Then once they got a job, they bought a house on loan, and then used more credit cards to buy furniture, etc. The guy admitted this, and he said he had some kind of deal with the furniture company to delay payment, but then the furniture company added on some kind of late-payment fee, which he paid off just to get them off his ass.


Then I asked them how they bought stuff back in their homeland, and they said cash. Basically, all the stuff we see in the US is an illusion because it's all based on debt, and then they said they needed air conditioner and other stupid stuff (the latest cell phone, iphone, playstation, etc). I laughed at their face because I can't tell you how many supposedly rich people from foreign countries leave their homeland to come here so they can live a life-filled debt, work full time and over time just to stay afloat on their bills, just to be the image they see on television, but they seem to love it (for bragging rights to their family back home). Finally, it came to we agreed to disagree....

[Filthy Keynes]

Finally, it came to we agreed to disagree....


That is the saddest part. Agreeing to disagree that THEY have enslaved themselves. What a sad state of affairs, eh?

[cthulu]

Finally, it came to we agreed to disagree....


That is the saddest part. Agreeing to disagree that THEY have enslaved themselves. What a sad state of affairs, eh?


All for a illusion. I can't tell you how many people I've run into that say the same story. (A part of me questions if they really are rich or just saying they're rich, but I hear the story often from so many different people.) They or their family is well-to-do or really rich in some foreign country. They give it all up so they can come over here and work full time + overtime just to stay afloat on bills. A few people I know have worked themselves till they're chronically sick. I ask them if they ever consider going back, and invariably they say no because they need the luxuries over here (air conditioner, ipod, iphone, not even real luxuries, just crap).

I think it's some kind of psychosis....some kind of low self-esteem issue. They're so proud of living over here, bragging to their families back home about how they're living the american dream, regardless of the cost and the fact that it's all based on debt.

[Twisted Titan]

Finally, it came to we agreed to disagree....


That is the saddest part. Agreeing to disagree that THEY have enslaved themselves. What a sad state of affairs, eh?




"Let me tell you why you're here. You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain. But you feel it. You've felt it your entire life. That there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there. Like a splinter in your mind, driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?"

"The Matrix?"

"Do you want to know what it is?"

"The matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work, when you go to church, when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth."

"What truth?"

"That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage, born into a prison that you cannot smell or taste or touch. A prison for your mind.

[Hatha Sunahara]

I'm convinced that the concept of money is too complicated for the intelligence of 99+% of the population to grasp in its entirety. The very few who can understand it are either extremely rich, or disgusted that the extremely rich are able to rob the rest of the population with the system in place, and are protected by this 'veil of ignorance' that surrounds the topic of money.

No amount of teaching will get a larger part of the population to understand what is really going on. It's too complicated for the masses, who know all they need to know so they can play the game and be exploited.and never feel it. This PDF explains it. How many people do you think will 'get it'?


Hatha

[woodman]

I'm convinced that the concept of money is too complicated for the intelligence of 99+% of the population to grasp in its entirety. The very few who can understand it are either extremely rich, or disgusted that the extremely rich are able to rob the rest of the population with the system in place, and are protected by this 'veil of ignorance' that surrounds the topic of money.

No amount of teaching will get a larger part of the population to understand what is really going on. It's too complicated for the masses, who know all they need to know so they can play the game and be exploited.and never feel it. This PDF explains it. How many people do you think will 'get it'?


Hatha


It's not that difficult Hatha. I think people understand it quite easily when thay take the time. They just don't want to see the truth and will bury their heads in the sand rather than face the truth.

[BillBoard]

I'm convinced that the concept of money is too complicated for the intelligence of 99+% of the population to grasp in its entirety. The very few who can understand it are either extremely rich, or disgusted that the extremely rich are able to rob the rest of the population with the system in place, and are protected by this 'veil of ignorance' that surrounds the topic of money.

No amount of teaching will get a larger part of the population to understand what is really going on. It's too complicated for the masses, who know all they need to know so they can play the game and be exploited.and never feel it. This PDF explains it. How many people do you think will 'get it'?


Hatha


It's not that difficult Hatha. I think people understand it quite easily when thay take the time. They just don't want to see the truth and will bury their heads in the sand rather than face the truth.


The simplicity requires you to think, and in my experience, the people I have told about this do not like the fact that they have had to think to comprehend it. As a matter of fact, those I have shared this knowledge with have become quite upset about now knowing the scam the Fed is running on all of us and feeling helpless at not being able to do something immediately about it.

[cthulu]

That pdf has a pretty good quote I bet most people will readily grasp and wake up to.



Money is created when banks lend it into existence. When a bank provides you with a $100,000 mortgage, it creates only the principal, which you spend and which then circulates in the economy. The bank expects you to pay back $200,000 over the next 20 years, but it doesn’t create the second $100,000 – the interest. Instead, the bank sends you out into the tough world to battle against everybody else to bring back the second $100,000.

All the banks are doing the same thing when they lend money into existence. That is why the decisions made by central banks, like the Federal Reserve in the US, are so important – increased interest costs automatically determine a larger proportion of necessary bankruptcies.

So when the bank verifies your “creditworthiness,” it is really checking whether you are capable of competing and winning against other players – able to extract the second $100,000 that was never created. And if you fail in that game, you lose your house or whatever other collateral you had to put up.

- Bernard Lietaer1

1. Beyond Greed and Scarcity in Yes! Magazine, Summer 1997

[Twisted Titan]

I'm convinced that the concept of money is too complicated for the intelligence of 99+% of the population to grasp in its entirety. The very few who can understand it are either extremely rich, or disgusted that the extremely rich are able to rob the rest of the population with the system in place, and are protected by this 'veil of ignorance' that surrounds the topic of money.

No amount of teaching will get a larger part of the population to understand what is really going on. It's too complicated for the masses, who know all they need to know so they can play the game and be exploited.and never feel it. This PDF explains it. How many people do you think will 'get it'?


Hatha


It's not that difficult Hatha. I think people understand it quite easily when thay take the time. They just don't want to see the truth and will bury their heads in the sand rather than face the truth.


The simplicity requires you to think, and in my experience, the people I have told about this do not like the fact that they have had to think to comprehend it. As a matter of fact, those I have shared this knowledge with have become quite upset about now knowing the scam the Fed is running on all of us and feeling helpless at not being able to do something immediately about it.



Thinking is the HARDEST WORK their is.........that is why so few people engage in it.


Henry Ford.


T

[BillBoard]

Thanks for posting the quote T.

[Hatha Sunahara]

And that's precisely why only very very few people will sit down and even listen to anyone explain to them how insanely unfair the money system is. They think either that they already know all there is to know about money, or if they understand what they are told, they will deny it--that is, tell you that you are either lying or mistaken. That's why I think most people don't understand the money system. They believe all the propaganda and obfuscations of the people who own that system. The system really is a conspiracy between the bankers and the politicians. Most people don't want to believe that--even if it's true. So, they go with the propaganda and assume that ignorance (or believing lies) is armor against truth. What deters them are two things--the complexity, because money serves so many functions, and their need to conform and obey, which means not whispering even anything negative about anybody because anybody can cause them an insane amount of trouble. Lots of examples of that in everyone's life. Best to stay ignorant and go along.

Hatha

[Bigjon]

Where do you find all these idiots who don't understand how money mechanics work.
This is bullshit, from one more idiot who hasn't a clue or wants to misinform.

When a bank recieves your payment the interest portion is theirs to spend and that is what they do and now the money is back in the economy.



Money is created as loans and thus represents debt
● The interest associated with this debt/money is NOT created as
money when bank loans are made. The interest can only be paid
if additional loans are created as money.
● This means there is never enough money in the system to pay
bank interest without creating more debt, so this interest is
essentially unpayable.
● In this type of money system TOTAL debt grows exponentially
and will eventually become unpayable once new debt/money
creation can no longer be supported.
● Because money is “extinguished” as loan

[Twisted Titan]

And that's precisely why only very very few people will sit down and even listen to anyone explain to them how insanely unfair the money system is. They think either that they already know all there is to know about money, or if they understand what they are told, they will deny it--that is, tell you that you are either lying or mistaken. That's why I think most people don't understand the money system. They believe all the propaganda and obfuscations of the people who own that system. The system really is a conspiracy between the bankers and the politicians. Most people don't want to believe that--even if it's true. So, they go with the propaganda and assume that ignorance (or believing lies) is armor against truth. What deters them are two things--the complexity, because money serves so many functions, and their need to conform and obey, which means not whispering even anything negative about anybody because anybody can cause them an insane amount of trouble. Lots of examples of that in everyone's life. Best to stay ignorant and go along.

Hatha


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHd6m_cirrU

[BillBoard]

Where do you find all these idiots who don't understand how money mechanics work.
This is bullsh*t, from one more idiot who hasn't a clue or wants to misinform.

When a bank recieves your payment the interest portion is theirs to spend and that is what they do and now the money is back in the economy.




Not quite, they may spend a portion but they just lend the rest causing an exponential accrual in their favor.

[BillBoard]

Hey T, I have a quote for you:

“The few who can understand the system will be either so interested in its profits, or so dependent on its favours, that there will be no opposition from that class, while, on the other hand, that great body of people, mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantage that Capital derives from the system, will bear its burden without complaint and, perhaps, without even suspecting that the system is inimical to their interests.”

[Hatha Sunahara]

That quote is from the Protocols of Zion?

Hatha

[Bigjon]

Where do you find all these idiots who don't understand how money mechanics work.
This is bullsh*t, from one more idiot who hasn't a clue or wants to misinform.

When a bank recieves your payment the interest portion is theirs to spend and that is what they do and now the money is back in the economy.




Not quite, they may spend a portion but they just lend the rest causing an exponential accrual in their favor.



Nope, they spend all of the interest.

When the banks get to create money out of thin air there is no reason to lend out profits, therefor it behooves them to spend all their profits by buying other assets.

Ok you have the mark sitting in front of you and he has the earnest money you need for your reserve requirement, that and his signature will conjure NEW money into the system.

But you are a real stupid banker and instead of letting the mark create the money by which you will make him your slave for the next xxx years you take your profits and give it to him as a loan.

Remind me not to invest in any banks you own.

The bankster will buy loans from other banksters, maybe from your bankster who is short on cash, because he is stupid.

The nature of fractional reserve banking is that the amount of money in circulation grows exponentially and contracts exponentially as the amount of and size of loans grow or shrink in quantity.

[BillBoard]

That quote is from the Protocols of Zion?

Hatha


I don't know, but it is attributed to the Rothschilds.

[MNeagle]

BillBoard, would you kindly post your OP in the beginner link? It's stickied on the top of General Discussion: http://gold-silver.us/forum/general-discussion/sticky-links-to-very-importanttopical-and-beginners'-threads/


Thank you!

[BillBoard]

BillBoard, would you kindly post your OP in the beginner link? It's stickied on the top of General Discussion: http://gold-silver.us/forum/general-discussion/sticky-links-to-very-importanttopical-and-beginners'-threads/


Thank you!


Done.

Hey, does anyone know what became of Jcarvingblock?

[TheNocturnalEgyptian]

My collected quotes:


"Just look at us. Everything is backwards; everything is upside down.
Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroys information and religions destroy spirituality."
-Michael Ellner


"Whoever controls the volume of money in our country is absolute master of all industry and commerce, and when you realize that the entire system is very easily controlled, one way or another, by a few powerful men at the top, you will not have to be told how periods of inflation and depression originate." — James A. Garfield, 20th U.S. president, two weeks before he was assassinated in 1881


"I have often wondered how it is that every man loves himself more than all the rest of men, but yet sets less value on his own opinions of himself than on the opinions of others." --Marcus Aurelius


"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it" --Frederic Bastiat

And yes, some were provided by you guys.

[Joe King]

I tried to explain this to some of the foreigners at my work place. The minute they came here they were in massive debt because they needed a car to work, credit cards to buy stuff, which meant they needed a social security number. Then once they got a job, they bought a house on loan, and then used more credit cards to buy furniture, etc. The guy admitted this, and he said he had some kind of deal with the furniture company to delay payment, but then the furniture company added on some kind of late-payment fee, which he paid off just to get them off his ass.


Then I asked them how they bought stuff back in their homeland, and they said cash. Basically, all the stuff we see in the US is an illusion because it's all based on debt, and then they said they needed air conditioner and other stupid stuff (the latest cell phone, iphone, playstation, etc). I laughed at their face because I can't tell you how many supposedly rich people from foreign countries leave their homeland to come here so they can live a life-filled debt, work full time and over time just to stay afloat on their bills, just to be the image they see on television, but they seem to love it (for bragging rights to their family back home). Finally, it came to we agreed to disagree....
That's what they see as the "better life" that they came here for.

As bad as it is, the "up" side to having a grossly inflated monetary system is that it allows for lots of economic activity that would otherwise not be able to exist.
Well, at least up until the point that the bitter end rears it's ugly head.

[Bigjon]

BillBoard, would you kindly post your OP in the beginner link? It's stickied on the top of General Discussion: http://gold-silver.us/forum/general-discussion/sticky-links-to-very-importanttopical-and-beginners'-threads/


Thank you!


You want to give beginner's a bum steer, the whole OP is way off base.

[hoarder]

Hey, does anyone know what became of Jcarvingblock?
I think he faded away about the time Phoenix and Philo were at the peak of their rampage. I have his email. If you want I could contact him. I don't know anyone who understands monetary systems like him.

[Bigjon]

Hey, does anyone know what became of Jcarvingblock?
I think he faded away about the time Phoenix and Philo were at the peak of their rampage. I have his email. If you want I could contact him. I don't know anyone who understands monetary systems like him.


I know lots of people who understand monetary systems just like jcarvingblock, because he also believed the "they didn't create the money to pay the interest" story that is in the OP. Carvingblock also went by the handle "Levi Philos". You might joogle him, if you really care.

I know by now you won't believe what I say, that this is bunkum/misinfo/crap, but maybe you will believe G Edward Griffin who wrote "The Creature from Jekyll Island". He says as much as that in his book. He has also sent me an email many years ago when we were hashing this all out with the hyperkittycat and reiterated his position that the interest is included in the original loan and kept in the system by the bankers spending of it. I doubt I can find his email as that was at least 5 years ago.

[Bigjon]

You can read G. Edward Griffin's take on "they didn't create the money to pay the interest here:
http://www.freedomforceinternational.org/freedomcontent.cfm?fuseaction=money_as_debt&refpage=issues

[BillBoard]

I know lots of people who understand monetary systems just like jcarvingblock, because he also believed the "they didn't create the money to pay the interest" story that is in the OP.

The problem is not that they didn't create the extra money to pay the interest. It is the usury that is the problem, since from the very inception you have lost the game and are at the mercy of the lender since they control the money supply.

For example, the people rent the money from the Fed.

Even if you rent the money at 0%, you have to pay it back, right? So think about the decay rate of the money supply as controlled by the lenders.

If the principal is to be paid back in one year, the decay rate is 100% per annum.

If the principal is to be paid back in two years, the decay rate is 50%.

If the principal is to be paid back in 3 years, the decay rate is 33.333%.

If the principal is to be paid back in 4 years, the decay rate is 25%.

If the principal is to be paid back in 5 years, the decay rate is 20%.

If the principal is to be paid back in 6 years, the decay rate is 16.666%.

If the principal is to be paid back in 7 years, the decay rate is 14.2857...%.

If the principal is to be paid back in 8 years, the decay rate is 12.5%.

If the principal is to be paid back in 9 years, the decay rate is 11.111...%.

If the principal is to be paid back in 10 years, the decay rate is 10%.

If the principal is to be paid back in 20 years, the decay rate is 5%.

If the principal is to be paid back in 30 years, the decay rate is 3.333...%.

So if the initial money supply is borrowed at 0% and to be paid back at 0% for 30 years, on the second year you will only have 96.6667% of the initial amount for a money supply contraction of 3.333...%!

So if you have signed a contract when the money supply was at 100% and then the money supply decreases to 90%, you have just increased your real cost of servicing that debt by another 10%.

[Bigjon]

I know lots of people who understand monetary systems just like jcarvingblock, because he also believed the "they didn't create the money to pay the interest" story that is in the OP.

The problem is not that they didn't create the extra money to pay the interest. It is the usury that is the problem, since from the very inception you have lost the game and are at the mercy of the lender since they control the money supply.

For example, the people rent the money from the Fed.

Even if you rent the money at 0%, you have to pay it back, right? So think about the decay rate of the money supply as controlled by the lenders.

If the principal is to be paid back in one year, the decay rate is 100% per annum.

If the principal is to be paid back in two years, the decay rate is 50%.

If the principal is to be paid back in 3 years, the decay rate is 33.333%.

If the principal is to be paid back in 4 years, the decay rate is 25%.

If the principal is to be paid back in 5 years, the decay rate is 20%.

If the principal is to be paid back in 6 years, the decay rate is 16.666%.

If the principal is to be paid back in 7 years, the decay rate is 14.2857...%.

If the principal is to be paid back in 8 years, the decay rate is 12.5%.

If the principal is to be paid back in 9 years, the decay rate is 11.111...%.

If the principal is to be paid back in 10 years, the decay rate is 10%.

If the principal is to be paid back in 20 years, the decay rate is 5%.

If the principal is to be paid back in 30 years, the decay rate is 3.333...%.

So if the initial money supply is borrowed at 0% and to be paid back at 0% for 30 years, on the second year you will only have 96.6667% of the initial amount for a money supply contraction of 3.333...%!

So if you have signed a contract when the money supply was at 100% and then the money supply decreases to 90%, you have just increased your real cost of servicing that debt by another 10%.


Where does it say this in your "excellent presentation"?
Your BASIC PREMISE is wrong, not much of a foundation on which to present your case.


In Our Current Debt based money system:
● Money is created as loans and thus represents debt
● The interest associated with this debt/money is NOT created as
money when bank loans are made. The interest can only be paid
if additional loans are created as money.
● This means there is never enough money in the system to pay
bank interest without creating more debt, so this interest is
essentially unpayable.
● In this type of money system TOTAL debt grows exponentially
and will eventually become unpayable once new debt/money
creation can no longer be supported.
● Because money is “extinguished” as loan principals get paid off,
attempts to pay off the debt set up a money shortage which
triggers demand for more borrowing just to preserve the money
supply.

I am not a big fan of the current debt based monetary system and would prefer the original wealth based system we had.
I think that if we are to have a fiat money system it should be money issued debt free by the treasury.

Our original system was that the mint stood ready to coin money from gold or silver bullion to all comers for the charge of a small franking fee.
The people were to be in control of this system, gold and silver have a marginal value set by their usage and price as bullion in use as jewelry and industrial processes. If money in coin form dropped in value relative to it's industrial value people were "supposed" to be free to melt coins and sell them for their industrial value and conversely if coin values went to high relative to industrial value they could take bullion to the mint to be made into coin. In order for this to work properly at least one of the metals used must be in plentiful supply.

The Roman republic used bronze as a coin which made coins plentiful for use in trade. The republic fell when the bankers insisted upon gold coins.

[BillBoard]

Where does it say this in your "excellent presentation"?



It doesn't, but still it is an excellent presentation in my opinion.




I am not a big fan of the current debt based monetary system and would prefer the original wealth based system we had.


I agree.