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LuckyStrike
11th November 2010, 08:30 PM
Growing up in Churchs they were all Romans 13, obey mans law don't speed pay taxes. But Yahwehs law? The Creator of the Universe? Oh thats just the Old Testament we don't have to do that anymore, just say this magic prayer and wham bam thank you ma'am you have a one way ticket to eternal paradise.

They don't mention the Law because the Law commands many non politically correct things. They cite ambiguously translated verses from Paul a man, yet ignore these verses from the Son of God. ::)

You read these verses and tell me we aren't told to follow Yahweh's Law.

Exodus chapter 34 verse 14;“For thou shalt worship no other god, for YHWH, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God”

Matthew chapter 6 verse 24; (The Messiah said) "No man can serve two masters..." (The Messiah rejected a multi-god culture)


Joshua chapter 24 verse 15;“…choose you this day whom ye will serve; …but as for me and my house, we will serve YHWH”


Matthew chapter 5 verses 17-18; (The Messiah said) “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am come not to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one title shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”


Matthew chapter 7 verses 21 -32;(The Messiah said) “Not every one that saith unto me, God, God, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will (Old Testament Law) of my Father which is in heaven”. 22 Many will say to me in that day, God, God, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity”. (Lawlessness)

Matthew chapter 12 verse 50;(The Messiah said) “For whosoever shall do the will of my Father (Old Testament Law) which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother”.

Matthew chapter 19 verse 17; “… if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments”. (Old Testament Law)


John chapter 14 verse 21; (The Messiah said) “He (NOT everyone) that hath my (Old Testament Law) commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him”.


John chapter 15 verse 10; (The Messiah said) “If ye keep my commandments, (Old Testament Law) ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's (Old Testament Law) commandments, and abide in his love”. Leviticus chapter 11 verse 44;“For I am YHWH your God; ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy, for I am holy…”

2 Corinthians chapter 6 verses 14 & 17; “14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers; for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness? 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate…”

Amos chapter 5 verse15;“Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment at the gate.”


1 John chapter 2 verse 15; "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."


1 John chapter 3 verse 4; Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Hebrews chapter 10 verse 26; For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Deuteronomy chapter 6 verses 13-18; “Thou shalt fear YHWH thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name. 14 Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you; 15 For YHWH thy God is a jealous God among you lest the anger of YHWH thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth. 16 Ye shall not tempt YHWH your God, as ye tempted him in Massah. 17 Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of YHWH your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee. 18 And thou shalt do that which is right and good in the sight of YHWH: that it may be well with thee…”


Ephesians Chapter 5 verse 11; “And have NO fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather EXPOSE them”

Matthew chapter 7 verse 16 -20; “Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them”.

TheNocturnalEgyptian
15th November 2010, 08:53 PM
Ezekiel 18:13

ximmy
15th November 2010, 11:14 PM
Job 13:5... Hmm never hear it... therefore, let the religioso's wind on... :D

"O that ye would altogether hold your peace! and it should be your wisdom" ~Jimmy

or in the parlance of our times...

"If only you would be altogether silent! For you, that would be wisdom."

ximmy ;D

Glass
16th November 2010, 12:26 AM
So knowing little and continually coming across references to how the "church" is an anti christ manifestation can I ask a couple things. Of which God is Jesus the son and what is the name of the son of God in Heaven. Are they one and the same? Is God of the israelites God in heaven or is he the other guy? I'm sure you know what I am talking about NB. Perhaps I am confusing some pretender Israelites with the real deal based on other comments I have seen you post. It just seems to me that if the covenant is between the bad guys and their bad big Kahuna then why am I getting tangled up in it.

On the other hand if the good guys went bad and walked away from the covenant and then the new covenant dealt with that then thats all good. That would mean that the guys who are called bad either aren't or there are others mixed up pretending to be the chosen ones who aren't chosen and are bad guys.

I'm trying to work out if there is a bait and switch here is all, that is getting ignorant people to put their worshipful energy into the bad forces.

LuckyStrike
16th November 2010, 03:17 PM
"If only you would be altogether silent! For you, that would be wisdom."




It's hard to tell the intent of things via text but am I to take this as some passive aggressive attack?

bellevuebully
20th November 2010, 09:08 PM
Growing up in Churchs they were all Romans 13, obey mans law don't speed pay taxes. But Yahwehs law? The Creator of the Universe? Oh thats just the Old Testament we don't have to do that anymore, just say this magic prayer and wham bam thank you ma'am you have a one way ticket to eternal paradise.

They don't mention the Law because the Law commands many non politically correct things. They cite ambiguously translated verses from Paul a man, yet ignore these verses from the Son of God. ::)

You read these verses and tell me we aren't told to follow Yahweh's Law.

Exodus chapter 34 verse 14;“For thou shalt worship no other god, for YHWH, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God”

Matthew chapter 6 verse 24; (The Messiah said) "No man can serve two masters..." (The Messiah rejected a multi-god culture)


Joshua chapter 24 verse 15;“…choose you this day whom ye will serve; …but as for me and my house, we will serve YHWH”


Matthew chapter 5 verses 17-18; (The Messiah said) “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am come not to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one title shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”


Matthew chapter 7 verses 21 -32;(The Messiah said) “Not every one that saith unto me, God, God, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will (Old Testament Law) of my Father which is in heaven”. 22 Many will say to me in that day, God, God, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity”. (Lawlessness)

Matthew chapter 12 verse 50;(The Messiah said) “For whosoever shall do the will of my Father (Old Testament Law) which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother”.

Matthew chapter 19 verse 17; “… if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments”. (Old Testament Law)


John chapter 14 verse 21; (The Messiah said) “He (NOT everyone) that hath my (Old Testament Law) commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him”.


John chapter 15 verse 10; (The Messiah said) “If ye keep my commandments, (Old Testament Law) ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's (Old Testament Law) commandments, and abide in his love”. Leviticus chapter 11 verse 44;“For I am YHWH your God; ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy, for I am holy…”

2 Corinthians chapter 6 verses 14 & 17; “14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers; for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness? 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate…”

Amos chapter 5 verse15;“Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment at the gate.”


1 John chapter 2 verse 15; "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."


1 John chapter 3 verse 4; Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Hebrews chapter 10 verse 26; For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Deuteronomy chapter 6 verses 13-18; “Thou shalt fear YHWH thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name. 14 Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you; 15 For YHWH thy God is a jealous God among you lest the anger of YHWH thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth. 16 Ye shall not tempt YHWH your God, as ye tempted him in Massah. 17 Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of YHWH your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee. 18 And thou shalt do that which is right and good in the sight of YHWH: that it may be well with thee…”


Ephesians Chapter 5 verse 11; “And have NO fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather EXPOSE them”

Matthew chapter 7 verse 16 -20; “Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them”.


Nordic, I agree that the law is important. So did the New Testament writers, and most of all, Jesus. There are many scriptures to support that. Christ said he came to fulfill the law. He also said that the law was summed up by loving God wholly (submission and obediance) and loving your neighbour as yourself (fruits). This is a model for successful execution of the law.

But, it is important to differentiate that we are not under the law, yet expected to demonstrate the law. Quite a difference indeed. The hinge point on the law and our exercising of it, is which engine is doing the work....our efforts, or the efforts of the Spirit within us. The first method is trying to force something that is unnatural. The second method is like displacement... as we love and obey God, the holy spirit dwells within us and the law flows out of our actions. It is literally 'pushed' out of us. That is how we can (want to) walk in God's statutes, versus (trying to) be good (following the law as the Pharisees attempted to).

If the law is not demonstrated in our lives and in our actions, our faith is not genuine.

Romans 8:3-4 "For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature [which is the exploiter of the law...Rom 7:8] but according to the Spirit [the perfector of the law...Rom 3:21-22 and Jer31:33]

Rom 7:8.....But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire.

Rom 3:21-22...But now a righteousness from God, apart from the law, has been made known.....This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.


Jer 31:33.....This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.

The only thing that I would add, in keeping with the theme of your original post, refers to what Jesus said about the summary of the law.....Love God with all your heart and love your neighbour as yourself. I think the first part is often overlooked, because it is the part that (we wrongly assume) costs us the most. Loving God means making a decision to follow his ways, not ours.....too often we are too comfortable in our ways to give them over to him. I've recently learned this lesson in a very meaningful way.


red....my comments


Very good post NB. You are absolutely correct.....the evidence of the law in our lives is essential to the genuinness of our faith. Today, that is overlooked it seems, more times than not.

LuckyStrike
20th November 2010, 11:30 PM
Very good post NB. You are absolutely correct.....the evidence of the law in our lives is essential to the genuinness of our faith. Today, that is overlooked it seems, more times than not.


Thanks for the great post bb.

As you pointed out loving Yahweh and your brothers is what it's all about.

How are we to love God? Explained in John 14

12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


As I've said many times here and elsewhere, Ecclesiastes is one of my favorite books of the Bible which sums up the entire meaning of our existence.

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.


As you said the law is "flawed" in that you can follow the letter of the law and hold sin in your heart. For example if the penalty for theft is sacrificing 5 sheep, then a rich man could steal everyday and just sacrifice sheep and be "technically" good under the law. However this isn't what Yahweh intended, he wants our obedience.

In the "Christian" churches I have been in it is just about saying this magic prayer, and attending church regularly they assume that is the key to heaven. It is ALL about Jesus, with only a rare mention of the Father. I find this heretical since Jesus's name was Yahshua, literally Yahweh Saves (So saying "Jesus Saves" is not only redundant but not doctrinally sound". Every fiber of Jesus's being from his very name to his word and actions were to reflect back on Yahweh and his power. Yet today things are turned on their head where Yahweh takes a back seat and the Son is elevated above the Father. In my opinion it was never intended to be this way, the creation is NEVER greater than the Creator.

StackerKen
21st November 2010, 09:08 AM
Yet today things are turned on their head where Yahweh takes a back seat and the Son is elevated above the Father. In my opinion it was never intended to be this way, the creation is NEVER greater than the Creator.




Are you suggesting that Yahweh created Yahshua?

LuckyStrike
21st November 2010, 10:09 AM
Are you suggesting that Yahweh created Yahshua?


I contend that Yahweh created everything.

Yashua, Jesus was sent here to provide an example of a perfect life, what we should strive to do. While obedience to the law for it's own sake is self righteous, obedience because we love the Father is the example.

As I said the modern church focuses solely on Jesus and the New Testament, now don't misunderstand me I am not downplaying Jesus's role on earth nor the wisdom of the New Testament whatsoever. My point is that I don't think Jesus himself would have directed the church to worship him and not the Father who sent him. John 20:21-23

The crux of his message was "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
so the ultimate desire and goal the reason for our existence is to get to the Father. Jesus is the example, the earthly manifestation of God himself, something tangible that we can understand and comprehend but nowhere that I have seen does he take anything away from the Father everything is redirected from the one who sent him.

StackerKen
21st November 2010, 11:01 AM
I think you may have kinda skirted my question Nordic :-\



I contend that Yahweh created everything.

Of course Yahweh created everything...

I think this verse sums it up pretty well...(but there are more)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


Jesus is the Word. Right?


Im pretty sure these verses speak of Jesus also


For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

StackerKen
21st November 2010, 11:09 AM
It seems the original post in this thread tends to take away from the work that has been done by our savoir in our behalf and place our works back into the spotlight.

I don't think we can gain Gods acceptance with our own works (we are just not good enough)

I think it is only though the work already done by Jesus Christ that we can be saved.


This is not to say that we don't want to do our best to try to please the Father...
Of course we want and try to do that. Always

StackerKen
21st November 2010, 11:17 AM
all our righteous acts are like filthy rags (isaiah 64:6)


I believe that
our righteousness comes from God. By ourselves, because of original sin, we cannot produce any righteous acts. God, through Christ, helps us to become righteous but it needs our active cooperation. His help comes in the form of His Grace and this Grace will first move us to do righteous acts.

John 15:5 (King James Version)

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.John 15:5

LuckyStrike
21st November 2010, 11:40 AM
I think you may have kinda skirted my question Nordic :-\







That wasn't my intention, I thought my answer was direct.

You asked "am I suggesting that Yahweh created Yashua"

Absolutely I am suggesting that. Yahweh is the Father, the Creator of the Universe.

StackerKen
21st November 2010, 11:56 AM
I think you may have kinda skirted my question Nordic :-\







That wasn't my intention, I thought my answer was direct.

You asked "am I suggesting that Yahweh created Yashua"

Absolutely I am suggesting that. Yahweh is the Father, the Creator of the Universe.




Ok...I thought thats what you were saying...but wanted to be sure. Thanks for making that clear for me.

So how do you reconcile (or interpret) the 1st 3 verses of John 1 ?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

I mean... How can God have made himself?

I belive that Jesus is the Word and he is God...and has always been with God...Not Created

Of course the Body that Jesus inhabited for 33 years may have been created...Is that what you mean?

StackerKen
21st November 2010, 12:02 PM
Father = EL
Son in spirit = Yahua (pronounced EEAAOOAA)
Son in Flesh = Yahushua

Son in spirit in the KJV is called LORD
The Son in Spirit created the heavens and earth
It was the Son in Spirit that spoke to Moses and everyone else.


Thank you Ima

very helpful info :)

LuckyStrike
21st November 2010, 12:16 PM
I belive that Jesus is the Word and he is God...and has always been with God...Not Created

Of course the Body that Jesus inhabited for 33 years may have been created...Is that what you mean?


Yes basically on both your points I basically agree as I understand your meanings.

My whole point of bringing any of it up is that the SOLE focus is on Jesus the son when everything he did on earth was the reflect back on Yahweh The Creator. And like I said earlier people say "Jesus Saves" which essentially means Yahweh Saves Saves, aside from being nonsensical it isn't doctrinally sound like I said.

StackerKen
21st November 2010, 12:19 PM
Right on Brother!

StackerKen
21st November 2010, 01:26 PM
I just read this on Facebook :D
(Hank is one of my Facebook friends)


Some say that those who lived before the time of Christ were saved by keeping the law. The Scriptures, however, say otherwise. First, the Bible from first to last demonstrates that the saved throughout history come to faith in exactly the same way—by grace alone through faith alone on account of Christ alone. The apostle Paul quotes the Old Testament extensively to drive home the reality that no one has been, or ever will be, declared righteous by observing the law (Romans 3:20).

Furthermore, Paul points to Abraham, the father of the Jews, to prove that salvation comes through faith apart from works that we perform. In his words, “If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? ‘Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness’” (Romans 4:3; Genesis 15:6; Galatians 3:6–9).

Finally, Jesus Christ is the substance that fulfills the types and shadows in the Old Testament (Luke 24:44; Romans 3:21–22; Hebrews 1:1–3). Each year the Jews celebrated the Passover to keep them focused on the One who was to come to die for their sins (1 Corinthians 5:7; Hebrews 11:28, 39–40). As Hebrews says, “The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming, not the realities themselves” (Hebrews 10:1). The Bible from first to last demonstrates that the saved throughout history come to faith in exactly the same way—by grace alone through faith alone on account of Christ alone.


http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/how-were-people-who-lived-before-the-time-of-christ-saved-

bellevuebully
21st November 2010, 01:55 PM
Great thread. Thanks to nb for the op, and to all others for the great input.

There are so many interesting verses that show this intersect of the Father and the Son. Saviour is one title that is used interchangebly, Lord another, and again, King. But there certainly is an 'order' of office apparent in scripture.....the Father sent the Son, it is the Father's will that is carried out, the Father gave the Son to have life, and authority and judgement. Very interesting concepts. I believe much of this refers to the fact that the Son (pre-incarnate) decidedly emptied himself of the form of God to become a servant in the form of the Son of Man.

Another very interesting thing to note that I have come across.....Jesus always refers to himself as the Son of Man (his earthly role), not the Son of God (his spiritual role), except in future reference to his coming (Jn 5:25-29) and in Rev 2:18, both in a timeframe after his resurrection and restoration to his former glory and rightful place in heaven. I didn't do an exhaustive search, but if anyone has further input on that, please share.

StackerKen
21st November 2010, 02:13 PM
Belevue; that son of man and son of God thing aways made me think ???
Another one is the "Last Adam" 1 Corinthians 15:45 -48
???

bellevuebully
21st November 2010, 04:33 PM
Belevue; that son of man and son of God thing aways made me think ???
Another one is the "Last Adam" 1 Corinthians 15:45 -48
???



From what I wrote above re: Son of Man vs Son of God, does that help to make sense of it. I believe Son of Man distictively self-defines or self-identifies him as fully human, while he maintains his divinity and heavenly authority. It accentuates the differences.

Last Adam is something that I also at this point have not searched the scriptures about, but I would imagine it would have something to do with the concept that sin was born into the world through adam and was dealt a death blow through Christ. Maybe others can comment here.

illumin19
21st November 2010, 07:43 PM
Another very interesting thing to note that I have come across.....Jesus always refers to himself as the Son of Man (his earthly role), not the Son of God (his spiritual role), except in future reference to his coming (Jn 5:25-29) and in Rev 2:18, both in a timeframe after his resurrection and restoration to his former glory and rightful place in heaven. I didn't do an exhaustive search, but if anyone has further input on that, please share.


Here's a pretty straight forward verse from the "books of Moses" speaking of the difference of "El" (God) and a son of man (Jesus, alayhi salam). If Jesus was a son of man, he couldn't have been "El" according to the "Book".

Numbers 23:11
God (El) is not a man, that he should lie,
Nor a son of man (Adam) , that he should repent.

God h410
אל 'el [Pronounce Hebrew root for H410 אל.]

[is] not a man, h376
איש 'iysh [Pronounce Hebrew root for H376 איש.]

that he should lie; h3576
כזב kazab [Pronounce Hebrew root for H3576 כזב.]

neither the son h1121
בן ben [Pronounce Hebrew root for H1121 בן.]

of man, h120
אדם 'adam [Pronounce Hebrew root for H120 אדם.]

that he should repent: h5162
נחם nacham [Pronounce Hebrew root for H5162 נחם.]

bellevuebully
21st November 2010, 08:11 PM
Another very interesting thing to note that I have come across.....Jesus always refers to himself as the Son of Man (his earthly role), not the Son of God (his spiritual role), except in future reference to his coming (Jn 5:25-29) and in Rev 2:18, both in a timeframe after his resurrection and restoration to his former glory and rightful place in heaven. I didn't do an exhaustive search, but if anyone has further input on that, please share.


Here's a pretty straight forward verse from the "books of Moses" speaking of the difference of "El" (God) and a son of man (Jesus, alayhi salam). If Jesus was a son of man, he couldn't have been "El" according to the "Book".

Numbers 23:11
God (El) is not a man, that he should lie,
Nor a son of man (Adam) , that he should repent.

God h410
אל 'el [Pronounce Hebrew root for H410 אל.]

[is] not a man, h376
איש 'iysh [Pronounce Hebrew root for H376 איש.]

that he should lie; h3576
כזב kazab [Pronounce Hebrew root for H3576 כזב.]

neither the son h1121
בן ben [Pronounce Hebrew root for H1121 בן.]

of man, h120
אדם 'adam [Pronounce Hebrew root for H120 אדם.]

that he should repent: h5162
נחם nacham [Pronounce Hebrew root for H5162 נחם.]




The bible also doesn't say that God is an angel, but he certainly appears that way in Genesis 16, when 'the angel of the Lord' appears to Hagar and proceeds to promise her that "I will increase your decendants that they will be too numerous to count" v10. As this verse does not say unequivically that God can or can not appear as an angel, niether does the verse you quoted unequivically state that God can or cannot appear as a man. What we do know, is that God is Spirit.

I am not a doctor, but I can certainly become one.

Out of curiousity, do you believe in the New Testament? I'm not sure which point of view you are approaching this from.

illumin19
21st November 2010, 11:01 PM
Just be aware that "angels" are messengers, ambassadors if u will.....they speak or act in accordance with "God's" will, right?

U will see them "speaking" in the first person all over the bible with authority but that doesn't make them God. Same with the prophets or human messengers......."old testament" is filled with them speaking for God and will be pointed out with quotations.

The "new testament" or at least the Gospels are more blurred in relating the words spoken by Jesus (upon whom be peace of God) and those being "spoken" by God/El.


As far as where I'm coming from, I agree with the prophets/messengers of God and what was revealed to them, and make no distinctions among them. All hue-men are servants of God, and are dependent on God......bar none. Some are just better servants than others.

Nite

bellevuebully
22nd November 2010, 05:07 AM
Just be aware that "angels" are messengers, ambassadors if u will.....they speak or act in accordance with "God's" will, right?

U will see them "speaking" in the first person all over the bible with authority but that doesn't make them God. Same with the prophets or human messengers......."old testament" is filled with them speaking for God and will be pointed out with quotations.

The "new testament" or at least the Gospels are more blurred in relating the words spoken by Jesus (upon whom be peace of God) and those being "spoken" by God/El.


As far as where I'm coming from, I agree with the prophets/messengers of God and what was revealed to them, and make no distinctions among them. All hue-men are servants of God, and are dependent on God......bar none. Some are just better servants than others.

Nite


Can you show me some scriptures where a prophet speaks in the first person, in proper context, where they declare..'I will_________________' without the disclaimer 'the Lord says' or where they are not referring to prophecy or quoting other scripture?

Awoke
22nd November 2010, 05:31 AM
BB, Illumin is a muslim.


Also, in regards to the term Son of God (http://drbo.org/cgi-bin/s?t=0&q=%22son+of+God%22&b=drb), I linked a quick search in an online bible.

illumin19
22nd November 2010, 08:42 PM
Can you show me some scriptures where a prophet speaks in the first person, in proper context, where they declare..'I will_________________' without the disclaimer 'the Lord says' or where they are not referring to prophecy or quoting other scripture?


Easy enough......but remember, they say "IF GOD WILLS/GOD WILLING" not I WILL :)

A prophet speaking in the first person....

Genesis 17:18
Abraham (may peace and blessings of God be unto Abraham) said to God "oh that IshmaEL (peace unto him) might live before YOU!

8)

bellevuebully
23rd November 2010, 03:23 PM
Can you show me some scriptures where a prophet speaks in the first person, in proper context, where they declare..'I will_________________' without the disclaimer 'the Lord says' or where they are not referring to prophecy or quoting other scripture?


Easy enough......but remember, they say "IF GOD WILLS/GOD WILLING" not I WILL :)

A prophet speaking in the first person....

Genesis 17:18
Abraham (may peace and blessings of God be unto Abraham) said to God "oh that IshmaEL (peace unto him) might live before YOU!

8)



Illumin,

In your zeal to prove your point, you have proven mine. I fully agree with what you have stated. Only God himself will say "I will" when making declarations about the fufillment of his will.. Prophets, angels and other agents of the Lord say 'he will', 'the Lord says' or some other form denoting they are reiterating God's message.

That is why I used Genesis 16:7 to show that God appeared as an angel, even though it is commonly agreed that God is not, by nature, an angel. It goes the same for the original topic you had disputed. Although God is not, by nature, a man, that does not mean that he can not appear as a man.

More support that God appeared as a man in the form of Jesus, based on the concept of the using the term "I will":

"Destroy this temple, and I will raise it up in three days" John 2:19

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord (1:verse8) .... I am he that liveth, and was dead; and behold, I am alive for evermore. (1:18).....To him that overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life (2:7) ......... I will never blot out his name from the book of life (3:5) <<<from Revelation...I used 1:8 and 1:18 to show the context that Jesus (dead, but now alive) stated he was Eternal (Alpha and Omega), a reference to the Almighty, and that he did in fact use the "I will" statements when exercising things that only God Almighty could carry out.

Also, to address the scripture you quoted above (Gen 17:18), I was not looking for a simple example of where a prophet speaks in the first person, which Abraham doesn't do in that verse anyway. Abraham was simply stating that he found it hard to believe that Sarai (now to be named Sarah) could conceive through him, and it would just be simpler if the blessing God was promising could go to Ishmael. It was an expression illustrating that Abraham was having trouble getting his head around what God was promising. It had nothing to do with a definitive statement about carrying out the will of God. You need to go back and read the post you were responding to. Maybe you didn't understand it. But if you would like to re-read it and gain understanding of what I was asking, I would invite you to try and answer it again.

StackerKen
23rd November 2010, 03:29 PM
Good post Bellevue :)

I was just thinking this morning, how cool it is that God became a man. (for us)

Totally Awesome! :)

bellevuebully
23rd November 2010, 08:36 PM
Good post Bellevue :)

I was just thinking this morning, how cool it is that God became a man. (for us)

Totally Awesome! :)


I totally agree Ken. Taking that one step further,

Phil: 6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death--
even death on a cross!

You can see the lowness of position that Jesus submitted to all through the scriptures.

What I am going to say, I will say with the humility of someone who is (obviousy) fallible, one who is learning and asking for wisdom, knowledge and revelation from God. By no means am I claiming this is the way it is, because, quite truthfully, I believe the mystery of Jesus Christ to be so grand, that only a revelation such as the one afforded Paul, who having no concept of Christ, knew then, through that revelation, so much about the full truth of that mystery. This is what I would like to share:

It seems to me that the lowness that Christ donned, not only did he wear while here on earth, but it appears that he was so committed to the process, that that choice extends even beyond his days here on earth. It seems that, as God the Son, he made the choice mentioned in Phil 2:6-8 knowing that he could never go back to that total positional equality with the Father. He shows throughout scripture, both in a human form and a glorified form, to be resolved to the fact that he was submitting to the fullness of God the Father......being seated at the right hand of the Father, carrying out the will of the Father, acknowleging the leadership of the Father. Both on earth (Matt27:46) and exalted (Rev3:12) he refers to the Father as 'my God'. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 is the most striking example of this......."Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet". Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."
edit...I just had a conversation with someone and a good earthly analogy of this was discussed, and is something that I would like to add here. It is like an earthly king, who knows that total victory can only be achieved by joining his people on the battlefield, but knowing that once that is accomplished, he can never go back to reigning as king. He is more concerned with the outcome for all than the outcome of his own destiny. That is pure sacrafice. end edit.

The wholeness of the scriptures is clear......Jesus' nature was diety, whether we can understand the fullness of it in light of this great sacraficial gesture. It is thouroughly woven within scripture...."Anyone who has seen me has seen the father.......believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves." Jn 14:9-11.......and "while we wait for the appearing of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ"Titus 2:13

Where in heaven or on earth or even in the imagination of men can you find a sacrafice of this magnitude? Only in the Son of God.

illumin19
23rd November 2010, 09:11 PM
Illumin,

In your zeal to prove your point, you have proven mine. I fully agree with what you have stated. Only God himself will say "I will" when making declarations about the fufillment of his will.. Prophets, angels and other agents of the Lord say 'he will', 'the Lord says' or some other form denoting they are reiterating God's message.

More support that God appeared as a man in the form of Jesus, based on the concept of the using the term "I will":

"Destroy this temple, and I will raise it up in three days" John 2:19

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord (1:verse8) .... I am he that liveth, and was dead; and behold, I am alive for evermore. (1:18).....To him that overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life (2:7) ......... I will never blot out his name from the book of life (3:5) <<<from Revelation...I used 1:8 and 1:18 to show the context that Jesus (dead, but now alive) stated he was Eternal (Alpha and Omega), a reference to the Almighty, and that he did in fact use the "I will" statements when exercising things that only God Almighty could carry out.

Also, to address the scripture you quoted above (Gen 17:18), I was not looking for a simple example of where a prophet speaks in the first person, which Abraham doesn't do in that verse anyway. Abraham was simply stating that he found it hard to believe that Sarai (now to be named Sarah) could conceive through him, and it would just be simpler if the blessing God was promising could go to Ishmael. It was an expression illustrating that Abraham was having trouble getting his head around what God was promising. It had nothing to do with a definitive statement about carrying out the will of God. You need to go back and read the post you were responding to. Maybe you didn't understand it. But if you would like to re-read it and gain understanding of what I was asking, I would invite you to try and answer it again.



:D

Sounds good........
Explain in your brilliance please what was spoken to Musa (alayhi salam) that it was either a lie (astagfirullah) or a contradiction.

Exodus 33:20
And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Yet, some how u claim people saw God in the form of Jesus and "ANgel of the lord".
Care to elaborate? :-X

bellevuebully
23rd November 2010, 10:21 PM
:D

Sounds good........
Explain in your brilliance please what was spoken to Musa (alayhi salam) that it was either a lie (astagfirullah) or a contradiction.

Exodus 33:20
And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Yet, some how u claim people saw God in the form of Jesus and "ANgel of the lord".
Care to elaborate? :-X



Good Sir

The scripture is an anvil. Many have hammered on it for millenia, yet have failed to wear it down. If I wrote it, I would admit that I was brilliant. I did not and I am not. It is his text.

Genesis 32:22-31... That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two female servants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. 24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”
But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”

27 The man asked him, “What is your name?”

“Jacob,” he answered.

28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,[a] because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”

29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”

But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there. 30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face and yet my life was spared.”


God is not a liar, or a contradictor of his own word. When we find ourselves at odds with God word, the problem lies with us. At that point we need to step back and ask with a contrite heart for God to show us where we are erring, and ask for his forgiveness. Thanks be to him, that he has provided the perfect sacrafice to allow us such a priveledge.

illumin19
24th November 2010, 06:55 PM
:-[

Really?

Now Jacob literally "wrestled" with God u say?......not a metaphor :P

The original word used for man in the context is Strong's H376 'iysh'

Man, hue-man (in contrast to God)


An example of a similar use of the word 'iysh' (H376) and use of the term God/Lord and not taking things literal would be in Genesis 4:1

And Adam120 knew3045 853 Eve2332 his wife802; and she conceived2029 , and bare3205 853 Cain7014, and said559 , I have gotten7069 a man376 from854 the LORD3068.


The verse above also shows how Adam got a son from God (all is from God yes?) but not literally 'from' him.

& of course, God is not a liar..............

bellevuebully
24th November 2010, 08:44 PM
:-[

Really?

Now Jacob literally "wrestled" with God u say?......not a metaphor :P



No, not I. It is the Lords Word that says so.

Was it then his metaphorical hip that was metaphorically touched and then metaphorically wrenched? Where do you draw the line Illumin?

I see that you prefer the line thick and blurred. Not just in this case but in many.

You claim that Jesus is a prophet and say that all prophets are equal, yet the Word of God contradicts both of these claims....

"I have testimony weighter than that of John (the baptist). Jn 5:36 <Jesus greater than John
"I must decrease, that he may increase" (John the baptist speaking, Jn 3:30) <Jesus greater than John

I'll note here that if you do not believe in John the baptist, but say that Yahya was not he, that you are contadicting Jesus's own words. Even in the incorrect assumption that Jesus is merely a prophet, you are making him out to be a liar, for his own words as well as the words of the prophet Isaiah testify that he is "the voice of one calling in the desert, 'Make straight a way for the Lord'. Isaiah 40:3

Continuing on....

"If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me." Jn 5:46 (Illumin....can you point that out, where Moses wrote about Jesus?) <Jesus greater than Moses

"After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus. Peter said to Jesus, 'Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters---one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.' (He did not know what to say, they were so frightened.) Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: 'This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him! Suddenly, when they looked around, they no longer saw anyone with them except Jesus. Mark 9:2-8 <Jesus greater than Elijah and Moses

"for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here" Matt 12:42 <Jesus greater than Solomon

"The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgement with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Johah, and now one greater than Jonah is here" Matt 12:41 <Jesus greater than Jonah

"Suddenly, Jesus met them. 'Greetings', he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshipped him. Then Jesus said to them, 'Do not be afraid...." Matt 28:9 < Jesus greater than man

"When they saw him, they worshipped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Matt28:17, 18 <Jesus greater than man

You can not choose willy-nilly what you want to be the truth. Again, is it you or the Word of God that is inconsistant?

bellevuebully
24th November 2010, 09:22 PM
The original word used for man in the context is Strong's H376 'iysh'

Man, hue-man (in contrast to God)





I'll just address one more thing Illumin. Anyone can use a Strong's concordance, so if you choose to, do not do as you do with scripture and pick and choose what suits you.....that is a mighty dis-service to God, and to your fellow man. As you can see from the extracted data....

Word: YI@

Pronounce: eesh

Strong: H376

Orig: contracted for 582 (or perhaps rather from an unused root meaning to be extant); a man as an individual or a male person; often used as an adjunct to a more definite term (and in such cases frequently not expressed in translation):--also, another, any (man), a certain, + champion, consent, each, every (one), fellow, (foot-, husband-)man, (good-, great, mighty) man, he, high (degree), him (that is), husband, man(-kind), + none, one, people, person, + steward, what (man) soever, whoso(-ever), worthy. Compare 802

....it is a generic term that can be utilized for denoting ''a male person', not as you incorrectly pass off as distinctly 'human man'. As a matter of fact, that is a pure fabrication on your part. And as another matter of fact, fits nicely in to scriptures as God is always referred to as male in gender, and that we, persons with distinct personalities, are created in the image and likeness of God.

You see Illumin, when you read the scriptures for what they are, in their wholeness and entirety, you do not have to use clever and slick sounding arguments to prove your point. The Word of God will do it for you.

Awoke
24th November 2010, 10:12 PM
I'll note here that if you do not believe in John the baptist, but say that Yahya was not he, that you are contadicting Jesus's own words. Even in the incorrect assumption that Jesus is merely a prophet, you are making him out to be a liar, for his own words as well as the words of the prophet Isaiah testify that he is "the voice of one calling in the desert, 'Make straight a way for the Lord'. Isaiah 40:3


That's an easy thing to do for a Muslim. Muhammad wrote a pile of contradictory "scriptures". He would take a certain stance on a certain issue and wrote scripture about it, then later on in life, as his following. power and empire grew, he wrote contradictory scriptures on the same certain issues, because the "new rules" fit his life and aspirations better.

Anyone who is curious to know the details can read about the Islamic scriptures in the book "Jesus and Muhammad: Profound Differences and Surprising Similarities" by Mark A. Gabriel. (Egyptian Muslim expert turned Christian) I'm not going to pull the book out and get digging when I have three other books on the go already.

This expert (The author) states in no uncertain terms that Muhammad is a false prophet and deceiver.

illumin19
24th November 2010, 11:36 PM
Was it then his metaphorical hip that was metaphorically touched and then metaphorically wrenched? Where do you draw the line Illumin?

Haha...sorry, you know well as I do Jacob (alayhi salam) didn't wrestle with God literally. Do u really think it was literally God from what you read? Serious question......

I see that you prefer the line thick and blurred. Not just in this case but in many.
Yes, I prefer confusion ::) No confusion here, no one is equal with God....period.

You claim that Jesus is a prophet and say that all prophets are equal, yet the Word of God contradicts both of these claims....
It is not in my person to say who is better than who, do u understand? If a prophet/messenger of God says something different well, they would be in a better position to do so. That is not my position......

"I have testimony weighter than that of John (the baptist). Jn 5:36 <Jesus greater than John
"I must decrease, that he may increase" (John the baptist speaking, Jn 3:30) <Jesus greater than John

I'll note here that if you do not believe in John the baptist, but say that Yahya was not he, that you are contadicting Jesus's own words. Even in the incorrect assumption that Jesus is merely a prophet, you are making him out to be a liar, for his own words as well as the words of the prophet Isaiah testify that he is "the voice of one calling in the desert, 'Make straight a way for the Lord'. Isaiah 40:3

Continuing on....

"If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me." Jn 5:46 (Illumin....can you point that out, where Moses wrote about Jesus?) <Jesus greater than Moses

"After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus. Peter said to Jesus, 'Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters---one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.' (He did not know what to say, they were so frightened.) Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: 'This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him! Suddenly, when they looked around, they no longer saw anyone with them except Jesus. Mark 9:2-8 <Jesus greater than Elijah and Moses

"for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here" Matt 12:42 <Jesus greater than Solomon

"The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgement with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Johah, and now one greater than Jonah is here" Matt 12:41 <Jesus greater than Jonah

"Suddenly, Jesus met them. 'Greetings', he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshipped him. Then Jesus said to them, 'Do not be afraid...." Matt 28:9 < Jesus greater than man

"When they saw him, they worshipped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Matt28:17, 18 <Jesus greater than man

You can not choose willy-nilly what you want to be the truth. Again, is it you or the Word of God that is inconsistant?


Here's "willy-nilly" for u.....So Jesus is greater than all prophets (to u) right? Well God is greater than Jesus......

My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all........John 10:39

THIS IS = ETERNAL LIFE>>>>> that they may know YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD.... John 17:3

Am i still leaving things blurry?

Awoke
25th November 2010, 07:01 AM
Christ is the Father, made flesh. The Trinity is one and three the same.

The Father - Creator in heaven
The Son - The creator manifested in flesh
The Holy Spirit - The spirit of Love that God exudes




[6]Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me. [7] If you had known me, you would without doubt have known my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him, and you have seen him. [8] Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us. [9] Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou, shew us the Father? [10] Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works.



http://drbo.org/chapter/50014.htm

bellevuebully
25th November 2010, 06:39 PM
Am i still leaving things blurry?






I would like other members who are interested in this thread to read this post. The reason for doing so will become obvious as you read. Also, if you chose to comment, I would ask that you do so respectfully. I am not worried whether comments directed to me are respectful, but if commenting about Illumin, I would ask that they are. I did not post this to hurl insults at him or to be demeaning towards him, but to clear up what I see as an issue. Thanks in advance.


Illumin,

I have no problem discussing scripture with you, but you never complete a point of discussion. The references you give are irrelevant to the posts you are responding to, they contradict themselves and you totally ignore the questions that are asked of you. I could cut and paste each and every one of them, but I am very busy. I think it would be fair of me to ask you to simply go back and slowly and thoughtfully read through the thread and respond to the context of the posts. Take them one at a time and be specific. Stay on topic. And don't avoid answering challenges that don't suit your point of view. I think if you are at all honest, you will see that I have done that very specifically in each and every corrospondance. I think you will also see that your comments are off topic and random. You seem to not want to answer or address things that the scriptures say that don't align with your point of view. I am not being angry or short with you....I would simply like to engage in a linear discussion without jumping from statement to statement when you fail to support what you are claiming. I have not come to this conversation with my own words, but with the words of scripture. They bear witness to the truth. Please go back and thouroughly and specifically address the posts where you have failed to do so. You seem to be handy with English, I don't know if it is your first language or not. If it is a language barrier issue, I would be more than pleased to approach things slower and to be cognizant of that fact....this is not an insult or a put down, I am being very genuine. What I will say is that you need to be honest with yourself...a read through of this thread clearly shows how much you have jumped around and failed to address the points of discussion. In order to self check this accusation, and to be honest myself, I would invite anyone reading this thread to provide input into what I am saying about you failing to stay on topic is true (I am not asking whether or not they agree with my point of view, only that I am not off base with my accusation. "One witness is not enough to convict a man of any crime or offense he may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses". (Deut 19:15) I am not saying you have committed an offense, or a crime, but I think that in matters where differences occur, the principle of witnesses are important in establishing the truth. If I am found to be in the wrong, I will certainly apologize and retract my statement.

In peace,
Bb

Also I would like to discuss the last text you provided with regard to the Lord Jesus stating that the Father is greater than all. I fully agree. Jesus himself said it. But first, let us address what I have written above.

illumin19
25th November 2010, 10:41 PM
bellevuebully,

our point of contention and i believe u will agree, is in the difference in how we view Jesus (alayhi salam).

I don't see him as God Almighty, creator of all we can perceive, and u do correct?

I wanted to stick to just that topic and didn't respond to anything much if it would steer that off course, comprende?

I believe i did just fine in staying on topic with that and showing only scriptures from a bible to prove my point.

I invite third parties to follow along and comment, even better if they can stay objective in the evidence brought forth & on topic. If u want people to "critique" my "presentation that's fine, but i don't intend to modify any part of it for the sake of a poster.....sorry.

In any case, I enjoy conversation and u will find i'm hostile to almost noone, insha'Allah.

Peace

bellevuebully
26th November 2010, 01:51 PM
bellevuebully,

our point of contention and i believe u will agree, is in the difference in how we view Jesus (alayhi salam).

I don't see him as God Almighty, creator of all we can perceive, and u do correct?

I wanted to stick to just that topic and didn't respond to anything much if it would steer that off course, comprende?



Can you point out a post I have made that has not been in the context of discussing the nature of Jesus?


For your reference.....

Post 22
I showed a reference that stated the "angel of the Lord" made a sovereign statement..."I will increase your descendants"... indicating deity, and setting the context that if God could appear as an angel, he could appear as a man also. <on topic....about the nature of Jesus

Post 23
You claim prophets and angels do this all the time in scripture

Post 24
I asked for an example where this happens without the disclaimer "the Lord says" or something that indicated they were speaking on behalf of God. From the context of my post I was stating that they never do....that is why the quote in post 22 was critical to observe. <on topic...supporting my statement about the nature of Jesus

Post 26
In response, you gave a totally irrelevant example.

Post 27
I provided more support that Jesus, in his own words, made more sovereign statements that support he is divine. (btw, how do you reconcile these statements of Jesus as not being blasphemy, while still contending that he is a prophet? Your own misunderstandings contradict themselves. Do you choose to ignore those statements because they don't fit your p.o.v.?) <on topic....about the nature of Jesus

Post 30
Without addressing the previous post, you offer another scripture, and challange that it was proof of the fact that God could never be found in the form of a man.

Post 31
I provided an example of how the scripture testifies in Gen.32 that 'a man' makes yet another sovereign statement in changing Jacobs name to Isreal. Who has the sovereignty to make these statements, but God alone? Yet it was 'the man' that did it. Is scripture wrong, or is Illumin wrong? <on topic....about the nature of Jesus

Post 32
Again, you ignore the previous citations of scripture, and in addition, make disingenuous and misleading statements about the original word used for man.

Post 33
I provide 8 references showing that Jesus was greater than any prophet or any human, and showing him to have a divine nature, in the fact that he recieved and accepted worship without rebuke. Again, if he, as you say, is a prophet, how is this not blasphemy? Your own misunderstandings contradict themselves. Does God's word lie, or are you missing a piece of the picture? <on topic....about the nature of Jesus

Post 34
I call you on your misleading use of Strong's concordance in order to support your position, without regard to the fact that it does not support your position. For the record.....you ignored that statement also? <on topic....about the nature of Jesus

Post 36
You quote 2 scriptures that I fully agree with and are principles that I have never contested.



So again, Illumin......can you point out for me where the topic of Jesus' nature was not adhered to?

^^That is a direct question.....I have asked it for a second time in this post to emphasize it. Would you answer it?


In post 29, I wrote a response to StackerKen regarding the magnitude of the sacrafice the Son of God made for us. I think it would be helpful for you to read it to gain a better understanding of my perception of what the scriptures teach us about Jesus.

I think the biggest stumbling block for you in understanding the claims that Jesus made about himself are that you can not get beyond the concept of exclusivity....that God, who although he has a distinct nature...the Almighty and Living God....is unable to appear and work in many ways. In other words, you have an idea of God in your mind, and regardless of what the scripture says, you refuse to look at what the scriptures say in contradiction to your own thoughts. Put another way, you put God in a box, confined by your own ideas about him.

Anyway, I digress. My last two comments in this post are about our differing point of view. What I really want to address is the nature of our discussion. It is a discussion that I also would like to continue. All I am asking is that when a point is given, a question is posed, or a statement is made, that the response reflects the context and the content, and that the points are addressed before moving on to the next point. Can you honestly say that has happened thus far? (<<<that also is a literal question)

StackerKen
26th November 2010, 08:39 PM
our point of contention and i believe u will agree, is in the difference in how we view Jesus (alayhi salam).
Peace


I agree.
How we view Jesus Christ and who we say he is.......is pretty much everything.

As mush as I (and others) would like to convince folks who Jesus is....I think that it may not be possible. :-\

I think all we can do is show folks what Jesus said about himself and what his disciples said about him

I think God has to do the rest.....

Matthew 16
13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

illumin19
26th November 2010, 08:43 PM
For your reference.....

Post 22
I showed a reference that stated the "angel of the Lord" made a sovereign statement..."I will increase your descendants"... indicating deity, and setting the context that if God could appear as an angel, he could appear as a man also. <on topic....about the nature of Jesus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deity <<<<For everyone's reference
deity[1] is a recognised preternatural or supernatural immortal being, who may be thought of as holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, and respected by believers, often religiously referred to as a god.

You are free to interpret an "angel of the lord" being God almighty or a god and not just a messenger speaking on God's behalf. That is a conjecture I will leave to you and whomever else.....So instead of being "an angel of the lord" as it states, you now want to say it was God...great....Would that now make it a 4-in one God? Or was this angel one of the already present 3 in one? And how are u sure if it's one of the 3 in one, if it's the "father" or the holy ghost? I think you might have to re-visit Nicea for that one.....


Post 23
You claim prophets and angels do this all the time in scripture


Post 24
I asked for an example where this happens without the disclaimer "the Lord says" or something that indicated they were speaking on behalf of God. From the context of my post I was stating that they never do....that is why the quote in post 22 was critical to observe. <on topic...supporting my statement about the nature of Jesus


Post 26
In response, you gave a totally irrelevant example.
Then i apologize, i must have misuderstood you.

Post 27
I provided more support that Jesus, in his own words, made more sovereign statements that support he is divine. (btw, how do you reconcile these statements of Jesus as not being blasphemy, while still contending that he is a prophet? Your own misunderstandings contradict themselves. Do you choose to ignore those statements because they don't fit your p.o.v.?) <on topic....about the nature of Jesus

For everyone's reference >>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DivinityDivinity and divine (sometimes "the Divinity" or "the Divine") are broadly applied but loosely defined terms, used variously within different faiths and belief systems — and even by different individuals within a given faith — to refer to some transcendent or transcendental power or deity, or its attributes or manifestations in the world. The root of the words is literally "godlike" (from the Latin deus, cf. Dyaus, closely related to Greek zeus, div in Persian and deva in Sanskrit), but the use varies significantly depending on which god is being discussed.
I hear you constantly say "the nature of Jesus", I am not incorrect that u believe him to be the Highest supreme force in the universe correct?
It is easy enough to reconcile the statements of Jesus (peace unto him) as he was also a messenger/prophet and Messiah of God, he had authority to speak on his behalf and given leave by God to speak as well as act. No messenger does anything be it parting waters, waking the dead, etc. without God's leave. I have the utmost faith in that all prophets/messengers did so while still urging others that they were not the Most High......same with Jesus in how he taught you to pray to "the father" and made a distinction between himself and God, saying only God was good....not even Jesus (alayhi salam) equated himself with God.

Post 30
Without addressing the previous post, you offer another scripture, and challange that it was proof of the fact that God could never be found in the form of a man.
Well, in the books of Moses>>>God is not a man(H376 iysh) nor son(H1121 ben) of man(H120 adam). plainly stated in Numbers 23:11. Also I point out Thus, how is my logic flawed?
In the Gospel according to Matt, Mark, and Luke (where is it according to Jesus?) the Messiah (alayhi salam) refers to himself as THE SON OF MAN. Thus by default he draws the distinction between himself and God.
Why would it need to be said in 2 different words/ways that God is not a man? Possibly to NOT HAVE PEOPLE WORSHIP OTHER PEOPLE?
Exodus 33:20 God stated "No man shall see me and live" to Moses (peace unto him).
Yet now, God let's everyone alive at the time to see him in the form of Jesus (peace unto him)? Why did God (as you presume) claim to forsake himself, and pray to himself then? <<< :conf:


Post 31
I provided an example of how the scripture testifies in Gen.32 that 'a man' makes yet another sovereign statement in changing Jacobs name to Isreal. Who has the sovereignty to make these statements, but God alone? Yet it was 'the man' that did it. Is scripture wrong, or is Illumin wrong? <on topic....about the nature of Jesus
See above post.......I mention Numbers in plainly stating God is not a man, or son of man.
Jesus gives himself the title referred to in what is known as THE BOOKS OF MOSES.
Because 'a man' makes a 'sovereign' statement, that man is now God? Have angels the ability to be men, & could it have been an angel with a mission (so to speak)? Prophets show "miracles" at times, can not angels?


Post 32
Again, you ignore the previous citations of scripture, and in addition, make disingenuous and misleading statements about the original word used for man.
I didn't do it intentionally, nor do i believe it's innacurate. Though it was plagiarism on my part :P using cut and paste off of >>>http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Num&c=23&v=19&t=KJV#conc/19 website. Everything u say is misleading was cut from the website.


Post 33
I provide 8 references showing that Jesus was greater than any prophet or any human, and showing him to have a divine nature, in the fact that he recieved and accepted worship without rebuke. Again, if he, as you say, is a prophet, how is this not blasphemy? Your own misunderstandings contradict themselves. Does God's word lie, or are you missing a piece of the picture? <on topic....about the nature of Jesus

Again, he is a prophet, and i answered this question on blasphemy already in response to [u]Post 27[u] above^^

To u it may be God's word (untainted)? But i view it (as do many 'scholars') as having been a little tainted with man's 'injections'......but that's another topic.


Post 34
I call you on your misleading use of Strong's concordance in order to support your position, without regard to the fact that it does not support your position. For the record.....you ignored that statement also? <on topic....about the nature of Jesus
I used Strong's concordance off of the website and didn't add or take away from it>>>http://www.blueletterbible.org/index.cfm Maybe u should send them a letter on how they're misleading many......including myself?



Post 36
You quote 2 scriptures that I fully agree with and are principles that I have never contested.

So again, Illumin......can you point out for me where the topic of Jesus' nature was not adhered to?

^^That is a direct question.....I have asked it for a second time in this post to emphasize it. Would you answer it?
You did a good job :)

In post 29, I wrote a response to StackerKen regarding the magnitude of the sacrafice the Son of God made for us. I think it would be helpful for you to read it to gain a better understanding of my perception of what the scriptures teach us about Jesus.
I think i have a pretty good idea on your position or we wouldn't be having this conversation, no?


I think the biggest stumbling block for you in understanding the claims that Jesus made about himself are that you can not get beyond the concept of exclusivity....that God, who although he has a distinct nature...the Almighty and Living God....is unable to appear and work in many ways. In other words, you have an idea of God in your mind, and regardless of what the scripture says, you refuse to look at what the scriptures say in contradiction to your own thoughts. Put another way, you put God in a box, confined by your own ideas about him.
I think everyone might have a little "problem" in understanding all scripture wouldn't u say? I mean, it's not like you got this 3-in-one God all by yourself now, is it? As far as putting God in a box, then why not 5 or 6 or infinite in one instead of 3?

Anyway, I digress. My last two comments in this post are about our differing point of view. What I really want to address is the nature of our discussion. It is a discussion that I also would like to continue. All I am asking is that when a point is given, a question is posed, or a statement is made, that the response reflects the context and the content, and that the points are addressed before moving on to the next point. Can you honestly say that has happened thus far? (<<<that also is a literal question)
I think i might have overlooked some of your questions, sure. I apologize for that and am indeed open to non-hostile conversation. I have tried to be a little more thorough on this post, but forgive me....sometimes I post right before going to sleep or cannot be on for too long due to other responsibilities. I have tried to rectify that tonight, again I apologize.

illumin19
26th November 2010, 08:53 PM
How we view Jesus Christ and who we say he is.......is pretty much everything.

As mush as I (and others) would like to convince folks who Jesus is....I think that it may not be possible. :-\

I think all we can do is show folks what Jesus said about himself and what his disciples said about him

I think God has to do the rest.....

Matthew 16
13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


Peace Ken,
you are one of the classiest posters here, and im sure many would agree. I appreciate that you don't come out with slander to those of different views. 8)

By the way, in the above underlined statement attributed to Simon Peter, I only differ on 'son' not being literal that's all. A son comes from the loins, did that happen with God 'begetting' Jesus?......May God forgive me, it was just a question for thought for others, not myself. Many have been called the son of God in the bibles, again not literal....to me at least.

StackerKen
26th November 2010, 09:06 PM
By the way, in the above underlined statement attributed to Simon Peter, I only differ on 'son' not being literal that's all. A son comes from the loins, did that happen with God 'begetting' Jesus?......May God forgive me, it was just a question for thought for others, not myself. Many have been called the son of God in the bibles, again not literal....to me at least.


Thanks Illumin :) Peace to you too.

So you agree that Jesus was "the Christ" ?

(Christ is the English term for the Greek Χριστός (Khristós) meaning "the anointed one".[1] It is a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), usually transliterated into English as Messiah.)


while writing this post I found this on Wikipedia



Messiah, Hebrew: מָשִׁיחַ, Modern Mashiaẖ Tiberian Māšîăḥ (“anointed”), is a term used in Judaism, Christianity and Islam for the redeemer figure expected in one form or another by each religion

Do you believe that Jesus is man's redeemer Illumin?

illumin19
26th November 2010, 10:18 PM
So you agree that Jesus was "the Christ" ?

(Christ is the English term for the Greek Χριστός (Khristós) meaning "the anointed one".[1] It is a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), usually transliterated into English as Messiah.)
Of course I do! :) No if, and or but.......I God willing will never relinquish that belief either.

while writing this post I found this on Wikipedia



Messiah, Hebrew: מָשִׁיחַ, Modern Mashiaẖ Tiberian Māšîăḥ (“anointed”), is a term used in Judaism, Christianity and Islam for the redeemer figure expected in one form or another by each religion

Do you believe that Jesus is man's redeemer Illumin?
I believe he was sent to redeem (bring back what was lost) those of Bani (sons of) Israel at the time. He was endowed with blessings and gifts by God's leave. He was a word from God, the Messiah, and a prophet. Born of Maryam, a saintly woman chosen above all women to be the mother of the Messiah. Peace and blessings of God be upon them both.

In Islam, there is a saying attributed to Muhammad (peace and blessings of God unto him) that only Maryam and Aeesa/Jesus were the only ones to escape shaitan's touch at birth.

Nite

illumin19
26th November 2010, 10:23 PM
Also to Nordicbeserker,

I apologize for 'hijacking' your thread.



bellevuebully,

if you would like to continue the discussion, maybe we should start another thread? I think i have accidently hijacked a couple threads by Nordic before.

silver solution
26th November 2010, 11:09 PM
I think you may have kinda skirted my question Nordic :-\



I contend that Yahweh created everything.

Of course Yahweh created everything...

I think this verse sums it up pretty well...(but there are more)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


Jesus is the Word. Right?


Im pretty sure these verses speak of Jesus also


For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.




The Word is Gods Law, or The Way most places in the Bible.imho

Like here. 4:2 Ye shall not ADD unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the Commandments of the "I AM" your God which I COMMAND you.

bellevuebully
27th November 2010, 03:13 PM
You are free to interpret an "angel of the lord" being God almighty or a god and not just a messenger speaking on God's behalf. That is a conjecture I will leave to you and whomever else.....So instead of being "an angel of the lord" as it states, you now want to say it was God...great....Would that now make it a 4-in one God? Or was this angel one of the already present 3 in one? And how are u sure if it's one of the 3 in one, if it's the "father" or the holy ghost? I think you might have to re-visit Nicea for that one.....




I do thank you for putting in an effort of being more specific in your responses. It makes having a dialogue much more fluent.

So if you would like to continue discussing some of these points, may we do so one at a time?

Let's talk about the first one you responded to above.

So that I have a better understanding of your point of view, let me ask you...how do you specifically reconcile the very clear statement that the angel says "I will", when you've stated prophets and angels never do that? Of course, you are correct that it is conjecture on my part, because only God is omniscient, but it is conjecture based upon the fact that only God makes entirely sovereign and absolute statements such as this in the scriptures. Even though I may not fully understand all of the ways in which God chooses to present himself, my understanding gives latitude to the many ways he may do so. Here is a very relevant example: we know God is not a ball of fire, but he presented himself in flames of fire from within a bush...(Exodus 3:1); and also we know God is not smoke or fog, but he said "I am going to come to you in a dense cloud" (Exodus 19:9); and at another time in this way..."By day the Lord went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way, and by night in a pillar of fire by night to give them light". (Exodus 13:21)

By no means do I think that God, by nature is a ball of fire, a cloud, a pillar of smoke or a pillar of fire, but he clearly chose to present himself that way at certain times. In light of that, I don't see it as a stretch that God could appear in the form of an angel, or of man, even though I realize by nature he is not either of these. This is how I rationalize my understanding or perception of God in light of what the scripture offers us as clues to Almighty God. This is the kind of rationalization which I am interested in understanding about how you put it all together.

As for my approach to discussion, I do beg you to understand that I am not trying to be confrontational. In person, I am very much a factual and deliberate personality, although in person I am much better able to convey the softer side of my personality than I am able to do in text. As I said, I tend to be very to-the-point, focused and deliberate. If I have ever, through our discussion offended you by what has come across as obtuse or pointed, I do ask you to understand that is not at all my intention and that you accept my genuine contention that it is not so. Again, peace to you, and I do very much enjoy this disussion, as long as it remains on track and focused. So in light of that, can you describe to me , somewhat like I did above, but obviously in your own style,your rational for dismissing this use of language that conveys sovereignty......the "I will" part. You have already contended that prophets and angels do not operate that way.

bellevuebully
22nd December 2010, 07:25 PM
Illumin....I haven't seen you on this board for some time. I hope all is well with you.

illumin19
28th December 2010, 07:12 PM
Illumin....I haven't seen you on this board for some time. I hope all is well with you.


All is well, thank you. Started working a new job/career so I've been swamped lately with trying to learn and get down something new....I apologize to leave u and whomever who wished to see our dialogue "hanging" so to speak.



In response to any of your questions regarding God "incarnating" as a man......I cannot agree with it plain and simply because the Qur'an says 21:7 And We sent none before thee, but men to whom We made revelation -- question the People of the Remembrance, if you do not know -- Allah plainly says "but men" not Me (as in Allah) or angels for that matter.

21:25 And We sent never a Messenger before thee except that We revealed to him, saying, 'There is no god but I; so serve Me.' Allah plainly says all messengers said to serve God....period.

4:171 People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not, 'Three.' Refrain; better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be to Him -- That He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; God suffices for a guardian. Allah plainly says, Isa/Jesus (peace unto him) was only a messenger, nothing more....Not God incarnate.

42:51 It belongs not to any mortal that God should speak to him, except by revelation, or from behind a veil, or that He should send a messenger and he reveal whatsoever He will, by His leave; surely He is All-high, All-wise. Allah plainly says we will not literally see him in flesh & bones.

Now u might say that's all fine according to the Qur'an but......I wouldn't be following the Qur'an if it wasn't by the guidance/mercy of God and it being foretold in the Bible along with Rasul Allah (Muhammad [peace unto him] ). If u want to research it yourself, check Isaiah 42...verse 10 until the end. I actually broke it down a little bit in the thread entitled "The reality of the Qur'an" reply 19 and on.

I really didn't mean to offend you in anyway either, but there is nothing more to say on this matter for me. We'll be running in circles.

So in all honesty and good intention, I wish u the best in life and may God guide us to the truth,
peace.

StackerKen
28th December 2010, 08:15 PM
congrats on the new job/career illumin !

silver solution
28th December 2010, 09:29 PM
21:7. Before thee, also, the Apostles We sent were only men, to whom We granted inspiration: if ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.21:7. Before thee, also, the Apostles We sent were only men, to whom We granted inspiration: if ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.

21:25. Not an Apostle did We send before thee without this inspiration sent by Us to him: that there is no God but I [AM]; therefore worship and serve Me.

4:171. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of God aught but the Truth. Jesus the (human) son of Mary was (no more than) an Apostle of God; and His Word (John 1:14), which He bestowed on Mary's (human) son; was a spirit-Being (Christ) proceeding from Him (making the human+Being called Jesus+Christ): so believe God and His Apostles. Say NOT "Trinity": DESIST: it will be better for you: for "I AM" is one God. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a human son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs.

42:51. It is not fitting for a man that "I AM" should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil (Matt. 27:51), or by the sending of a Messenger to reveal, with "I AM"'s permission, what "I AM" wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise.

These I believe are better translations in to English.

Awoke
29th December 2010, 12:41 AM
What is that text from, Silver Solution?

bellevuebully
30th December 2010, 08:12 PM
Illumin....I haven't seen you on this board for some time. I hope all is well with you.


All is well, thank you. Started working a new job/career so I've been swamped lately with trying to learn and get down something new....I apologize to leave u and whomever who wished to see our dialogue "hanging" so to speak.



I really didn't mean to offend you in anyway either, but there is nothing more to say on this matter for me. We'll be running in circles.

So in all honesty and good intention, I wish u the best in life and may God guide us to the truth,
peace.


Glad all is well. Best wishes with your new endeavours, and likewise, may God guide us to the truth.

Sincerely,
Bb

illumin19
31st December 2010, 03:51 PM
What is that text from, Silver Solution?


Qur'an (Recitation).....Al Furqan (The criterion/standard)

Same ayat (signs/verses) I posted.....just a different "interpretation".

Instead of "God" being used it's translated as 'I AM' like in the book of Musa (alayhi salam).


Thank you Ken & BB, may we have some good dialogue soon......maybe for 2011....everyone be safe for New Years and take care,
Peace.