how good is your top soil?

[freespirit]

...just a little tip i thought i'd pass along....

to see how good your top soil is, simply take a mason jar, fill approx 2/3rds with water, put some soil in it, place the lid securely in place, shake it and let it sit for about 15min.

the inorganic material (sand, etc.) will settle to the bottom, while the organic material will remain suspended.

the more organic material you have, the better your soil... :)

[skid]

It's actually at lot more complicated than that. Good soil is about particle size, mineral content, cation exchange capacity, biological activity, ph, and plant nutrients among others. While organics in the right state are very beneficial, they are just a small part of overall soil makeup. For example, wood chips would steal nitrogen from your soil while they decompose, causing a nitrogen deficiency in your plants and poor growth. That is an organic that is not good for you garden (at least initially). On the old GIM1 I wrote a short thesis on improving soil. Too bad it is lost forever...

What you describe is a way to see what your soil particle makeup is which is helpfull. A soil analysis by a lab is the only way to truly findout what you have.

[freespirit]

i stand....corrected? lol

while i don't have a lab for soil analysis in my cupboard, i DO have a mason jar and when i used it check my top soil, i found i had lots of organic material, and little aggregate...my garden did quite well. my neighbor has soil with less organic material (something we confirmed with the same mason jar), and his gardens didn't seem to do as good. while the method may not be as scientific as a lab, it seemed to work.

as far as how good the soil is, your right, a lab will tell you for sure exactly whats what, but the mason jar will give you a good general indication of what you're working with...too much sand, etc., and the soil won't be as good as a soil with more organic content...hence the title of the thread..

[StackerKen]

hey Skid? You said "wood chips would steal nitrogen from your soil while they decompose",
So I assume that the same would be true with paper decomposing too? and leaves?

Because we compost all our paper trash along with some kitchen trash like veggie scraps and egg shells.
and I wondering...would this compost be nitrogen deficient?

[skid]

i stand....corrected? lol

while i don't have a lab for soil analysis in my cupboard, i DO have a mason jar and when i used it check my top soil, i found i had lots of organic material, and little aggregate...my garden did quite well. my neighbor has soil with less organic material (something we confirmed with the same mason jar), and his gardens didn't seem to do as good. while the method may not be as scientific as a lab, it seemed to work.

as far as how good the soil is, your right, a lab will tell you for sure exactly whats what, but the mason jar will give you a good general indication of what you're working with...too much sand, etc., and the soil won't be as good as a soil with more organic content...hence the title of the thread..


People grow great plants in sand/gravel hydroponically, with no organics. Organics are not the end all be all. That said, they do promote biological activity and do build better soil if they contain the right minerals/nutrients. There is an optimum balance of nutrients, and plants have been proven to grow best at a certain mineral nutrient balance. However, each soil has a limited number of minerals, and if they are not replaced or optimized, you will be eating food that is minerally deficient. If your soil additives don't replace the minerals, you will be eating less nutritious foods.

Believe me, I apply organics to my soil. I have manure from 5 horses, leaves by the truckload, etc., but they are only part of my soil building regimen...

[skid]

hey Skid? You said "wood chips would steal nitrogen from your soil while they decompose",
So I assume that the same would be true with paper decomposing too? and leaves?

Because we compost all our paper trash along with some kitchen trash like veggie scraps and egg shells.
and I wondering...would this compost be nitrogen deficient?


It depends on the carbon/nitrogen ratio. Wood chips have a very high c/n ratio, and temporarily use up soil nitrates when they decompose, as they take a long time to break down. Eventually they release the nitrogen back into the soil and more, but this can take a few years, and if other nitrogens aren't applied you can have poor plant growth.

Kitchen trash is great for the soil, but compost like you do to prevent the initial loss of nitrogen as above. Wood chips are a worst case, but eventually once they fully decompose they are great for the soil.

Composting is a whole nother area of expertise to do right, and to prevent all your nitrogen from rejoining the atmosphere. Treat your compost pile like a cake, and ice it with dirt. The dirt "icing" captures the nitrogen gas and prevents it from going to atmosphere. You also have to control the heat inside. If it is "ashy" it is too hot and needs more carbon (woodier/papier) type of material. If it is too cold and doesn't decompose quickly, you need a higher nitrogen compost (like manures/kitchen wastes/etc.) to heat up the pile.

[freespirit]

People grow great plants in sand/gravel hydroponically, with no organics. Organics are not the end all be all. That said, they do promote biological activity and do build better soil if they contain the right minerals/nutrients. There is an optimum balance of nutrients, and plants have been proven to grow best at a certain mineral nutrient balance. However, each soil has a limited number of minerals, and if they are not replaced or optimized, you will be eating food that is minerally deficient. If your soil additives don't replace the minerals, you will be eating less nutritious foods.

Believe me, I apply organics to my soil. I have manure from 5 horses, leaves by the truckload, etc., but they are only part of my soil building regimen...


i don't recall mentioning anything about growing with hydroponic media, and i never said organics were the "end all be all"...i only stated that by doing the thing with the mason jar, you will see the separation of soil components (organics being a part of soil) giving the average person a good indication of how much organic content is present.

if you have soil that has no organic content, you basically have sand. sand alone does not grow plants very well (without added nutrients). if i'm wrong, go ahead and stick your tomatoes in the kids' sandbox next spring, and see how they do...perhaps i should modify the last line of my OP to say "the more organic material you have, the better your soil....is than sand.

would that satisfy you?

if i'm wrong tell me I'm wrong, but i feel like we're sort of arguing the same side of the coin here....

and hydroponics are a whole other story. yes, plants can be grown quite well in "SOIL-LESS" set ups like sand or gravel, but plants grown this way often have to have nutrients added to the water to keep them healthy.

[skid]

I agree that organic material in your soil is good, and don't mean to take your point out of context. All I'm saying is that having a high amount of organics does not necessarily mean your soil is fertile at that point in time or any time. Do not rush out and amend your top soil with too much organics all at once, especially high c/n organics. Too much organics can stunt the growth of plants while the organics decompose. This can take a whole growing season and possibly ruin your crops , even though your soil will eventually benefit from it.

Your test also does not take into account other important soil fertility measures such as soil nutrients and minerals such as calcium and magnesium, and other trace minerals, which can have a huge impact on the health and growth rate of your plants. Understandingly most people don't go to these extremes (professional soil tests/etc.) when gardening a small plot for personal use, don't follow any scientific soil improvement plan and their results may reflect that. Low demand vegetables may do fine under an ad hoc regimen although they may be lacking nutritionally. However, for best results, any serious gardener/farmer will get a proper soil test and amend their soil accordingly.

I have had a lot of success following a soil improvement regimen based upon the principles of Dr William Albrecht such as on this web site: www.soilminerals.com . To quote:The difference between rich, fertile soil and poor, infertile soil is essentially this: the mineral composition of the soil. The flavor and nutrition in fruit, grains, and vegetables are based on the soil minerals available, not the amount or type of organic matter. If a needed mineral is missing, it is just that, missing, and no amount of organic matter will make up for it. No amount or combination of the air elements Carbon, Oxygen, and Hydrogen will add Zinc to your soil, and all plants and animals need Zinc. Plants also need Copper and Iron and Manganese, Calcium and Magnesium and Phosphorus, and at least seven other essential minerals (animals need at least fourteen more), and they need them in an available and balanced form. Rotting organic matter may release growth stimulants like Nitrogen and Potassium, but the other minerals are what create sweetness and flavor and nutrition in food. Without these other minerals you may achieve high production, but you will not achieve the highest quality.

[freespirit]

excellent post, skid...thankyou.

would you know of any testing kits, or methods available for the average joe (like myself) to utilize at home without having to resort to a lab test?

[skid]

Without a soil test the only way to ensure that your soil is properly mineralized is to apply a complete blanket soil improvement regimen. What this means is to apply all the minerals and nutrients a soil may need in the correct balance. This may not be the most optimum method and may put your soil a bit out of balance, as it doesn't consider your soil's current mineralization. However I did this for a few years and had very good results. I have an organic fertilizer/mineralization recipe that I borrowed from Steve Soloman's "Gardening When it Counts" (which I highly recommend reading BTW) which will fertilize/mineralize your soil without putting it out of balance.

The recipe is:
-Three parts seed meal (alfalfa meal, cornmeal, cheap dog food, etc.)
-One part blood meal
-One part bone meal
-1/4 part agricultural lime
-1/4 part gypsum
-1/2 part dolomite lime
-1 part rock dust
-1 part kelp meal

These are all available in bulk (read cheap) at ag supply stores. The seed meal can be purchased at animal feed stores, or Costco/walmart for cheap dog food (which is mostly corn meal anyways).

[skid]

The formula should be applied at a rate of 4-6 quarts of the mixed ingredients (noted in my previous post) per 100 square feet and incorporated into the soil. Higher demand vegetables should be side dressed (fertilizer placed around the plant stem) with this formula every 3-4 weeks at the same rate as noted above.

[horseshoe3]

I saw first hand the effect of a high c/n ratio last year. I spent the winter planing several thousand board feet of lumber and decided to put the chips on my garden. BAD IDEA. Well, maybe not a bad idea IF I had added enough N to make up for what the chips are tying up. The difference was quite clear and I could easily see the line where the chips stopped. It was classic N deficiency. So I read up on the subject and decided to rectify the situation by adding a bunch of horse manure. Horse manure is super high in N and most people don't want it because it can burn the plants too easily. But if you balance it with a high c/n ammendment like wood chips it works well.

[Dogman]

I saw first hand the effect of a high c/n ratio last year. I spent the winter planing several thousand board feet of lumber and decided to put the chips on my garden. BAD IDEA. Well, maybe not a bad idea IF I had added enough N to make up for what the chips are tying up. The difference was quite clear and I could easily see the line where the chips stopped. It was classic N deficiency. So I read up on the subject and decided to rectify the situation by adding a bunch of horse manure. Horse manure is super high in N and most people don't want it because it can burn the plants too easily. But if you balance it with a high c/n ammendment like wood chips it works well.


In time the yard or area will self correct. As already said in this thread, that is why all new organic matter should be composted Before using the material anywhere!

[StackerKen]

I saw first hand the effect of a high c/n ratio last year. I spent the winter planing several thousand board feet of lumber and decided to put the chips on my garden. BAD IDEA. Well, maybe not a bad idea IF I had added enough N to make up for what the chips are tying up. The difference was quite clear and I could easily see the line where the chips stopped. It was classic N deficiency. So I read up on the subject and decided to rectify the situation by adding a bunch of horse manure. Horse manure is super high in N and most people don't want it because it can burn the plants too easily. But if you balance it with a high c/n ammendment like wood chips it works well.


In time the yard or area will self correct. As already said in this thread, that is why all new organic matter should be composted Before using the material anywhere!


we do both...sometimes I plant right in the compost heap
Tomatoes love it

http://gold-silver.us/forum/gardening-and-farming/bad-planningtomatoes-out-of-control-7227/

Google Lasagna gardening

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Lasagna+gardening

[skid]

Stacker,

You might want to try hugelkultur some day. http://www.richsoil.com/hugelkultur/

[gunDriller]

hey Skid? You said "wood chips would steal nitrogen from your soil while they decompose",
So I assume that the same would be true with paper decomposing too? and leaves?

Because we compost all our paper trash along with some kitchen trash like veggie scraps and egg shells.
and I wondering...would this compost be nitrogen deficient?


i think if you are "loving" your soil, so to speak, treating it with TLC, it will be good. which it sounds like you are.

if the paper isn't decomposed roots will tend to grow along it instead of through it. not sure if that's good or bad.


i know of one patch of soil at a community garden that might be an example of carbon overload. every week they dump about 10 tons of wood chips on about an acre lot. they heat up, de-compose, then get bull-dozed flat and some more chips put on. this has been going on for about 4 years, at least, but the level of the soil barely rises.

[StackerKen]

The worms here eat all that paper surprisingly fast. and of course the worm poop is good stuff ;D

[gunDriller]

The worms here eat all that paper surprisingly fast. and of course the worm poop is good stuff ;D


it's amazing to me how worms can turn rotting cellulose (dirt, compost) into protein.

not many other animals can do that. cows require that grass be grown in the dirt, then they eat the grass.

humans can make protein by eating the cow, but not by eating the grass.

yet the "lowly" earthworm is able to skip all those steps and convert dirt directly into protein.

not many other animals can do that.


i still haven't gone on the one month earthworm diet i'd been thinking about. after performing some initial tests, i notice i'm procrastinating on the earthworm diet.

[osoab]

The worms here eat all that paper surprisingly fast. and of course the worm poop is good stuff ;D


At least you go worms. :'(

We lost our worms this year. It was very dry over all this year, and when I was doing fall amending, I didn't find any worms in my beds at least to 8" deep. I watered a crap load too, but .8" in a month of 80 degree temps for a couple of months will do that. I hope it is the moisture issue. It's my best guess. The little bastards were there in the spring. ???

[bellevuebully]

Ol' school gardening thread, just like the old days. Awesome stuff.

Thanks for the info. Let's try to keep this sub-forum alive this spring, shall we gents?

I need to ammend my garden soil this year.....last few just have not performed as expected. Not bad, but not optimal.

Thanks again.

[skid]

Ol' school gardening thread, just like the old days. Awesome stuff.

Thanks for the info. Let's try to keep this sub-forum alive this spring, shall we gents?

I need to ammend my garden soil this year.....last few just have not performed as expected. Not bad, but not optimal.

Thanks again.


Bellevue,

I'm looking forward to discussion in the gardening/farming section as well.

BTW it's worth it to get a soil test if you are serious about gardening and quality food, especially if you have a large garden. It's easy and relatively cheap to create optimum soil now while the system holds together. Who knows what the future will bring??

My kids (my little helpers) and I are already getting primed for the upcoming gardening season! My eldest makes me go to starbucks to gather up all the used coffee grinds once/week (we get easy 50+ lbs/week) to throw on the garden (we get hot chocolates as well ;D).

I've got all the seed catalogues,etc. and will place my orders early in January. 2010 was a great year, and I still have lots of potatoes, carrots, beets in the root cellar, and probably 25 squash and pumpkin still left.

[StackerKen]

great idea Skid. The worms love them coffee grounds

[bellevuebully]

great idea Skid. The worms love them coffee grounds


Morning Kenny boy! :)

[bellevuebully]

Skid,

I am going to test this year.

I had pics of my garden up at gim1, but I'll post some here soon. Gotta go now, small road trip. Cheers all.

[skid]

great idea Skid. The worms love them coffee grounds


I bet the worms work OT with all the caffeine they're getting ;D.

One of the local starbucks bags the grounds in the large mylar type bags the coffee comes in (restaurant quantity). They put them out front with a "free" sign on them for people to take if they want. I know we're not the only ones taking them, but there is always 3-4 bags minimum to take...