Who owns Christmas? You want to read this

[Glass]

Godless Gross (http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/blog/godless-gross)
I adore Christmas. And I hereby claim Christmas for all Australians.

I claim it for the godless, the Jews, the atheists, the Muslims, the apostates, the blasphemers, the Hindus and indeed all of us who could choose to see it as no-go zone for non-Christians.

Let me tell you that as an outsider, first as a Jewish boy and then an atheistic adult, Christmas used to have ambiguous meaning for me. This is no longer the case.
Despite its Christian beginnings (and before that pagan origins), it now belongs to everyone. It is not only that the Christ has been taken out of Christmas. It is also that so much more has been poured in. So welcome to the modern Ozzie Christmas where secular values and Christian tradition sit cheek by jowl.

You might recall, around Halloween, I asked a similar question about who owns All Hallows Eve and All Saints Day. These religious festivals are now deader than the dodo. Are those two festivals the precedent for the loss of sanctity of Christmas and Easter as Jesus and God lose their pre-eminence?

I do not think so — for it is also true that secular festivals such as Labour Day, Guy Fawkes Day, Remembrance Day, Empire Day and the Queen’s Birthday are in decline, in jeopardy or dead. What is happening? Does the decline of both secular and faith festivals tell us that Australians are losing the capacity to build a solemn consensus around days of gravity and seriousness? Does it mean that we turn everything into a shallow party?

The decline of national days of celebration shows that as these festivals, both secular and sacred, change, it is not so much a loss of faith but a loss of formality and a loss of social conformity. If we don’t want to go to Labour Day/Easter service/Remembrance Day then we damn well won’t.

This decline in the profundity and conformity of celebration is why I argue that Christmas, though different, is both godly and inclusive in Oz. For Christians there is the son of God’s birth. Additionally, the God of Sun, not the Son of God, is at the heart of the Aussie Christmas for believers and unbelievers alike. That is why I love it.

This is a different perspective to some traditional atheist attitudes. We used to pillory Christmas. We would call it ‘‘Christmyth’’ and boycott it. Now we should seek to take our part in its shared ownership. I prefer to incorporate Christmas into my unbelief rather than angrily resort to antagonism and repudiation.

Of course we could get grumpy about it. The conventional godly and godless criticism of this Christmas is well known: ‘‘Christmas is an affront to our multiculturalism. Christmas is an irrational religious myth. Christmas is crass. Christmas is commercial.’’ The critique is adopted by both sides of the belief continuum. The religious are affronted by the commercialism. The non-Christians could be threatened by the dominance of a religious culture different and often opposed to their own. The atheist once again must deal with another irrational religious mythology. Surely everyone’s a loser?

No, everyone is a winner. This festival is a great confluence of European winter fire festival, transcendent Christian faith in the son of God, secular worship of the God of sun. Xmas is increasingly conjoined with the Jewish feast of Hanukah and New Years’ Eve for an annual time to recover and reflect.




It is easy for Christmas to evolve for it has had many origins. It started as a pagan festival that celebrated the Yule-time pageant of candle light in the European winter. It was then grafted by the Romans on to the Christian celebration of the birth of Jesus.

Full opion and comments (http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/blogs/godless-gross/who-owns-christmas/20101217-190ey.html)

[Awoke]

So this "athiest" rejects belief in Christ, but trumpets worship of "The sun god"?

Nothing hypocritical about a self proclaimed jewish athiest worshipping a sun god, is there?

:oo-->

[Still Barbaro]

Yes, December 25th has for thousands of years been linked to the Sun.

December 22nd, is when the sun is the lowest....on the 23rd and 24th, the sun appear to not rise higher than on the 22nd.

On the 25th, the sun noticeable is higher....meaning it has risen.

There are many other references to the sun in Christianity.

[Still Barbaro]

Here are some references to the sun, courtesy of the Beatles, but I'm searching for a brief documentary on the solar/sun aspect of Christianity. I hope to find it soon. While you waiting, please enjoy this below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ-DUlbHeNw

[Still Barbaro]

Here is the brief video in detail on Christmas and the day of Decmeber 25th:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQLD59fK_Iw&feature=related

[RJB]

Christianity has been about conquering and replacing pagan gods with Jesus from the beginning. Of course it manifests in western art.

If you prefer drab art of Islam, go live in Saudi Arabia. :)

Here is a passage of a mere woman who isn't even a goddess.

Revelation 12
The Woman, the Child, and the Dragon
1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.

[Still Barbaro]

Christianity has been about conquering and replacing pagan gods with Jesus from the beginning. Of course it manifests in western art.

Yes, definitely. I view Constantine as the first major authoritarian to spread it on a grand scale.

[RJB]

Here is the brief video in detail on Christmas and the day of Decmeber 25th:Did you research any of the "facts" in this movie?

In ancient times the word play God sun =/= Son of God. This is unique to english. The reference to words such as hours, horizon, sunset do not come from where he claims, nor do the linguistics make sense if you stop and really think about it, but appears to be wishful thinking to prop up his agenda.

Horus was not born of a virgin. His father was Osiris. Horus did receive injuries in battle but was not crucified. Horus did not rise from the dead (his father Osiris did however). The 3 kings are a legend. Orthodox tradition has a different number, I believe 4. The bible says magi. Tertullian called them "almost kings" in the 2nd century and it stuck. The 3 number most likely comes from the 3 gifts.

No educated Christian believes Jesus was born on 25 Dec... We know that came later. So what?

Krishna was not crucified in the Hindu holy book. This was a legend that sprung up AFTER Christianity was established.

There are many other questionable statements he makes that I don't have time to look up right now

[RJB]

Yes, definitely. I view Constantine as the first major authoritarian to spread it on a grand scale.
It began as allegorical writing in the bible as I posted above. Great art (writing, visual art, etc.) rely heavily on metaphor and allusion to inspire. It is a gift that God has given us and is on full display throughout western culture. To distort my belief and the belief of my anscestors going back 2000 years as your videos have, should be taken as an insult, if they were not so ridiculous and easily debunked. I actually LOLled.

Constantine... There is a reason that he is so maligned. Besides Jesus and St. Paul, no western leader of ancient times is so attacked. As Magnes stated he was the Uniter of the western world. Most of what he supposedly instituted was going on back to the time of the apostles... (It's curious that many people refuse to read these writing.) The real reason for the attack on Constantine is really an attack on the Protestant denominations, IMO. The spirit of Protestantism was less reliance on the church and a full faith in the bible. Although the books of the bible were written long before Constantine, it was under his reign that some writings were left out (such as a biography on the Virgin Mary) and others were officially recognised as we see them today. There has been a great attack on Constantine for this reason and the legitimacy of the bible itself. "Newly discovered" books are popping up everwhere. This is no coincidence.

[Plastic]

The KJV Bible, and probably the rest of them too, call christmas heathen and easter outright evil. They are therefore perfect holidays for the atheists.

Yah I am ready for the smites...

[RJB]

The KJV Bible, and probably the rest of them too, call christmas heathen and easter outright evil. They are therefore perfect holidays for the atheists.

Yah I am ready for the smites...
I have no problem with your post as long as you can back up your claim and post the verses.

[RJB]

Here is more about the 16 crucified saviors myth: http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/JesusEvidenceCrucifiedSaviors.htm

That link was written by a Catholic. He has links to other stries related to claims in the above videos.

There's many other written by people with varying beliefs who easily tear it apart, just google, or bing.

Or just google the individual myths put up by people without an agenda.

[Santa]

As Magnes stated he, "Constantine" was the Uniter of the western world.

Is that really what you want? A world united by an Empire of one religion? An absolute theocracy?

How is that so different than an absolute Corporatocracy? Or an absolute Technocracy?

Just asking...

This is actually an important philosophical question.

Now to answer the OP's question, "Who owns Christmas?"

Santa owns Christmas. And to make this statement clear, I'm being sardonic. Todays Santa is basically the symbolic antithesis of Christ mass. An entirely capitalistic and secular symbol of consumerism.

[Plastic]

I have no problem with your post as long as you can back up your claim and post the verses.


Christmas.

Jeremiah 10:2-5, “Thus says the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen…For the customs of the people are vain: for one cuts a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not (fall over). They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne (carried), because they cannot go (they are dead things). Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.”

This plain description of the modern Christmas tree is clear. God directly refers to it as “the way of the heathen

In Revelation 2:6 and 15, we read about a “doctrine of the Nicolaitanes,” which Christ twice tells His Church “[He] hates.” Let’s analyze the word Nicolaitane. It means “follower of Nicholas.” Nikos means “conqueror, destroyer.” Laos means, “people.” Nicolaitanes, then, are people who follow the conqueror or destroyer—Nimrod. If you have believed that following Christmas is an innocent Christian custom, let this truth sink in!

The pagan Saturnalia and Brumalia were too deeply entrenched in popular custom to be set aside by Christian influence…The pagan festival with its riot and merry-making was so popular that Christians were glad of an excuse to continue its celebration with little change in spirit and in manner. Christian preachers of the West and the Near East protested against the unseemly frivolity with which Christ’s birthday was celebrated, while Christians of Mesopotamia accused their Western brethren of idolatry and sun worship for adopting as Christian this pagan festival.”

The modern term for merging false pagan customs with the worship of the true God is called syncretism. Anyone who did this in ancient Israel was put to death (Lev. 18:21, 29)! It was that serious!

refs.
www.biblegateway.com
http://www.thercg.org/books/ttooc.html

....

Easter.

There are absolutely no verses, anywhere in the Bible, that authorize or endorse the keeping of Easter celebration! The Bible says nothing about Lent, eggs and egg hunts, baskets of candy, etc., although it does mention hot cross buns and sunrise services as abominations, which God condemns.

“In Babylonia…the goddess of spring was called Ishtar. She was identified with the planet Venus, which, because…[it] rises before the Sun…or sets after it…appears to love the light [this means Venus loves the sun-god]…In Phoenecia, she became Astarte; in Greece, Eostre [related to the Greek word Eos: “dawn”], and in Germany, Ostara [this comes from the German word Ost: “east,” which is the direction of dawn]”.

The goddess Easter (Ishtar) was one goddess with many names—the goddess of fertility, worshipped in spring when all life was being renewed.

Tammuz was/is Ishtars husband whom she murdered.
Turn you yet again, and you shall see greater abominations that they do…and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz…And He brought me into the inner court of the Lord’s house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east. Then He said unto me, Have you seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing…that they commit the abominations which they commit here? For they…have returned to provoke Me to anger…Therefore will I also deal in fury: Mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in Mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.” (Ezek. 8:13-18).

Observing sunrise services is serious to God! He so hates this vile practice that He will ultimately destroy all who persist in it (Ezek. 9)!


Ishtar was/is also known as Ashtaroth.
Ashtaroth—The Queen of Heaven.

And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord…And they forsook the Lord, and served Baal and Ashtaroth [Easter]” (Jdg. 2:11, 13).

And again.

Judges 10:6 (King James Version)
And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim, and Ashtaroth

Astarte (Easter)-worship was always associated with the worship of Baal or sun worship. Astarte was Baal’s wife. Notice that another name for Astarte was Ashtaroth. The following quote makes this point clear: “What means the term Easter itself? It is not a Christian name. It bears its Chaldean origin on its very forehead. Easter is nothing else than Astarte, one of the titles of Beltis, the queen of heaven…Now, the Assyrian goddess, or Astarte, is identified with Semiramis by Athenagoras (Legatio, vol. ii. p. 179), and by Lucian (De Dea Syria, vol iii. p. 382)…Now, no name could more exactly picture forth the character of Semiramis, as queen of Babylon, than the name of ‘Asht-tart,’ for that just means ‘The woman that made towers’…Ashturit, then…is obviously the same as the Hebrew ‘Ashtoreth’” (Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons, pp. 103, 307-308).

Kings 11:4-6
The Bible states that King Solomon was the wisest man who ever lived. Yet, he made a mistake that God considered so great that, after his death, He punished Solomon by removing the kingdom from his son.
His mistake?
He married a woman who led him into the worship of Easter (Ashtaroth).



It goes on and on.....

Refs.
www.biblegateway.com
http://www.thercg.org/books/ttooe.html
(Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons, pp. 103, 307-308).
Athenagoras (Legatio, vol. ii. p. 179),
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astarte



Im'ma go help squish JP Morgan and buy some silver.

[RJB]

Is that really what you want? A world united by an Empire of one religion? An absolute theocracy? Did I claim to want any of that? I just find it interesting when I notice the diverse groups who ban together with an irrational hatred of Christmas also level the same hatred at Christianity and any who supported it. This includes the more talmudic minded "Christian" sects that were very "popular" on GIM1 and seemed to have migrated over here.

BTW, I bet my smites shoot up a lot quicker than plastics.

[RJB]

First, Christians do not worship Christmas trees, colored eggs nor do they represent Gods. The verses you post have to do with pagan methods of worship and idolatry. No one sets a tree in their house for worship or offerings. Read the whole 10th chapter of Jer. What are you trying to do, insult my intellegence? :)
In Revelation 2:6 and 15, .” Let’s analyze the word Nicolaitane It sounds like you cut and paste a Jack Chick quote. LOL. A quick search has netted different interpretations. I'll need to research who they were rather than a definition. For instance a Mason isn't necessarilly someone who lays bricks. ;)
If you have believed that following Christmas is an innocent Christian custom, let this truth sink in! What? We shouldn't celebrate the birth of Christ?
(Lev. 18:21, 29)"21And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD." This was an act of human sacrafice of an offspring to Molech!!!Not putting up a Christmas tree.
Easter Easter does not come from Ishtar. It comes from an Anglo-Saxon word for resurrection that does come from a pagan God for spring, Eastre. Are you saying we should dismiss the resurrection because we use a language once used by pagans? Eggs etc. are local traditions rather than religious.They vary from culture to culture. You won't see an egg on the altar of any Christian church. LOL. I don't know what a hot cross bun or a sunrise service but I'd say it has more to do with WHO it is directed to. Such as this passage:
Ezek 8:13-18 They brought a pagan statue into the temple to be worshipped-- That's different from giving a kid a colored egg or putting up a Christmas tree in a NON-religious setting.
Observing sunrise services is serious to God! Ezek 9These people were worshipping other Gods. Even so, I've never seen a sunrise service, but if it's for the resurrection of Jesus (and not Ishtar)... It's God's grace not works..

[Glass]

The story of the Christ child makes the spirit soar, as it has for countless generations.

WHAT is it that defines Christmas for us? The strain of the obligatory socialising with family (including the ones you might naturally run a mile from)? The obligation huge numbers of people have to make those they love, especially children, feel that love because of the effort to delight them with the right gift? The general mayhem of spending and socialising and simulating good cheer in the midst of the strain and the squalor of another year gone?

Well, Christmas can be all of that. It's easy to forget that when Dickens created his ''Bah! Humbug'' man Scrooge in A Christmas Carol, he wasn't simply adding new refinements of sentimentalism to the long-established myth. He was also delineating, with great power, the travails of the long-distance loner. (If you re-read the bits of the story everyone forgets, before Scrooge comes good, you'll find that Dickens accommodates a sweeping blackness as disturbing as Kafka's.)

But on top of everything else, there's the story of the Christ child that surfaces in us like a race memory. Away in a manger, no crib for a bed. Silent night, holy night. O come all ye faithful, come let us adore him, born the King of Angels, O come ye, O come ye to Bethlehem. Peace to those of good will.

It can all sound pretty cheesy piped through the speakers at the supermarket amid the turkeys and hams and Christmas puddings but, wherever you come from and whatever you believe, it goes as deep as anything does in what we call our civilisation.

It was pleasing the other week when that easygoing lady of the left, Tanya Plibersek, Minister for Human Services and Social Inclusion, took to task whatever blighted public servant it was who ordered that there should be nothing Christian in any of the displays in post offices, as if a nativity scene was the insignia of the Spanish Inquisition and nothing but the stench of infamy in the nostrils of all those fundamentalist atheists who march under the banner of Richard Dawkins.

Plibersek said, quite rightly, that the Christmas story was a thing to be treasured, and people should also be free to honour Hanukkah and Hindu and Muslim festivals.

Of course that's true. Christmas is the one, though, that underlies the Jewish and Greek influences that structure our world.

If you doubt the Jewish influence in Christianity, think of the stupendous, densely Hebraic accents of Mary's great prayer which is known to the church as the Magnificat. ''My soul doth magnify the Lord … He that is mighty hath done great things to me.''

This is when she first hears from the voice of the messenger, Gabriel, that the power of the Most High will overshadow her and, virgin though she is, she will bear God's son.

The language is like the language of the prophet Isaiah. She says that God will scatter the proud in the ''imagination'' (the delusion) of their hearts and that the rich he will send empty away.

Isaiah is the prophet Christians always saw as prophesying the coming of the Messiah. He talks about the one who will wipe away all tears, and he talks about the man of sorrows, despised and rejected. It all figures in the music of Handel's Messiah, which is always triumphantly performed at Christmas, not because it has any children in mangers but because it is so full of the power and the glory of the Christian vision. I remember the moving sight of that old Marxist Bernard Smith, the eminent art historian, standing up for the Hallelujah Chorus.

At some level we all do, whether we like it or not. St Paul, after his days of persecuting this Jewish sect and in the light of what happened when he fell headlong on that road to Damascus, said that it was all a stumbling block to the Jews and folly to the Gentiles.

The Gentiles, that is to say the Greek culture of the Roman Empire, worked its more lucid magic on the cult of the pale Galilean whose birth we commemorate on Christmas.

Think of that Logos glittering in the darkness that opens John's Gospel. ''In the beginning was the Word.''

This is the fourth, all but inscrutable Gospel, and whoever wrote it found his inspiration and his divinity in Plato. It deconstructs all the sweetness and drama of that Bethlehem nativity story to present the image of the light that shines in the darkness and cannot be overcome. It presents one take on the start of this story with the loftiest possible poetry of abstraction. Nor does it contradict that earthy Jewish story of dispossession, of the King of Kings coming like one of the wretched of the earth. How could it? Jesus himself said he would not dispense with one jot or tittle of the Jewish inheritance: he would bring it to fulfilment.

And so there is the story of the shepherds hearing the angels sing of glory in the highest. There is the story of the three wise men with their rich gifts and their homage. It's a beautiful story, the story of the birth of the Christ child, in the straw of the manger, with the cattle lowing. Think of the thousand images of this moment in Western painting that dazzle us with a truth-like revelation.

It is, as it develops, a tragicomic story, because that child will die on a cross, but at this Christmas moment, it is a story of joy.

And what does that baby, which is the first apparition of the incarnation of everything that is good, signify? A supreme innocence. An innocence that can outstare death. An innocence that casts no stones. An innocence that can forgive the worst things we can do.



link....... (http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/tale-of-innocence-and-joy-20101223-196hv.html)

[MAGNES]

Yes, definitely. I view Constantine as the first major authoritarian to spread it on a grand scale.


Where do you get your history from ?

You know the Jewish history channel called Constantine " one of the greatest Western
leaders to ever live " .

As far as Christianity and Constantine, the masses came first and it is his subjects/citizens
that made him convert , not the other way around . And this history comes from modern
white washed sources, historians, want references ? Constantine made a big gamble
actually, he followed his subjects and risked destroying himself, his power came from
the Oligarchy, military, elite, merchants, etc, all of them were pagan and challenged
by the people. Again, these historical accounts are from more modern sources
that are very PC and the truth is not PC. Want sources ?

Jesus Christ goes to the Greeks, he tells them, " I am the morning star " ,
what he is telling them is metaphor, " I am Apollo " , or he is
for justice and truth. The Middle East was full of Greek cities, Jesus himself
most likely knew how to speak Greek, and if educated, knew how to write
Greek, his name takes a Greek form, in Greek , follows Jason form, from
Galilee, right beside "deca polis" , ten cities, all Greek. Apollo is god of
healing as well, and a strong god of Justice, the Hippocratic Oath was
sworn to Apollo . A lot of the ancient writing uses allegory, metaphor,
attributes mythological characteristics to real people. I strongly believe
the historical Jesus is real, just like St Nicholas, given superhuman
attributes . The Greeks, not the Jews, laid the groundwork for Christianity,
the Hellenistic Kingdoms did this, Plato comes second to Jesus, nobody
would argue that Plato is not Western.

Zeitgeist has been totally debunked too, the details, but
almost all societies of past had strong Indo European presence.
I E were sun worshipers , it all evolved differently , so what
if there are similarities, why would there not be, the root is the
same.

[MAGNES]

Is that really what you want? A world united by an Empire of one religion? An absolute theocracy?


Answer : No , and you are making a straw man argument.

People that post like you and the others here
don't even have a grasp of very basic European
history.

Because of Constantine we are here today as Europeans and alive.

Santa , you are a troll from day one on here.

Who are you ?

Eustace Mullins: NEW HISTORY OF THE JEWS
http://gold-silver.us/forum/general-discussion/eustace-mullins-new-history-of-the-jews/

[MAGNES]

When the Ancient Greeks said, " Jesus is the Sun God " ,
that was it, no greater compliment could of been bestowed
to anyone, some of their greatest mythological beliefs were
bestowed upon a man. There was only one Sun God that
mattered in the Hellenistic Kingdoms.

You have to ask yourself what stirred the masses to move
in this direction ? It was a bottom up movement, not the
other way around.

There was great evil in the land, the tea party was stirring,
and Jesus Christ was waging war against the FED , and he
said, " I am the truth the way and the life ", " follow me ",
and on and on , and the FED was destroyed , and people
had freedom, and one of the greatest periods of prosperity
took place. Through corruption hundreds of years later
the Roman city fell, the dark ages rolled over the land,
but Rome the Empire survived,
Constantine saved it and saved the West, and Jews were
banished. Christians got mad at pagans and destroyed
their temples and statues, a tragedy , but it was payback
for their persecution. Later, Charles the Great woke up
all of Europe, greater than Constantine, Charles had
both hands tied behind his back, Constantine did not,
Charles made offers pirates could not refuse too,
god bless him.

Now Merry Christmas everyone, read my links above in thread.

[Santa]

Is that really what you want? A world united by an Empire of one religion? An absolute theocracy?


Answer : No , and you are making a straw man argument.

People that post like you and the others here
don't even have a grasp of very basic European
history.

Because of Constantine we are here today as Europeans and alive.

Santa , you are a troll from day one on here.

Who are you ?

Eustace Mullins: NEW HISTORY OF THE JEWS
http://gold-silver.us/forum/general-discussion/eustace-mullins-new-history-of-the-jews/



In order for me to give a straw man argument, there needs to be an argument, doesn't there?

But since you ask who I am, I'll answer. I'm RealJack. If you ask me honestly, I'll answer honestly.

Now I'd like to ask you a question. "Are you Christian, Magnes?" I ask you this question because many times in the past you've admitted that you aren't spiritual and it leaves me somewhat confused.

[Horn]

I'm RealJack.

Aha, Realjack, that's short for Satan... :o

[Santa]

I'm RealJack.

Aha, Realjack, that's short for Satan... :o


Silverhorn, is that you? Or am I not remembering your old handle correctly?

[oldmansmith]

Does anybody here really think that "Christmas" is not pagan Solstice in "Christian" clothing? Really?

[Horn]

I'm RealJack.

Aha, Realjack, that's short for Satan... :o


Silverhorn, is that you? Or am I not remembering your old handle correctly?


You're going pretty far back there, Jack.

How many other handles have you formed? That was like back in 05.

Its amazing to me how long this motley crew has been together.

[MAGNES]

How's it going RealJack, you know me it seems and I am predictable.
Nice first thread and intro on your part. As far as your question there
is a difference between history and religion and even on religion there
are many stupid troll posts. Why do I have to constantly explain it
and especially to you when you obviously have been reading my posts
going back. I posted a lot of facts above, the trolls only know one liners.
And yes their posts are trollish, not knowing and rewriting basic history
that matters, Western History. And here we are, these forums are a result
of those freaks like skyvike and yet people need the obvious pointed out.
I had quite a few of these discussion and then only wondered why and
where his version comes from, comes from lies by masons. Goldie was
doing the same thing. Go see a key thread in religion section.
Christians built the West, if people don't think so go live in India.

[MAGNES]

Does anybody here really think that "Christmas" is not pagan Solstice in "Christian" clothing?
Really?

It is a lot of things put together , so what ?
Especially about the Sun, Christians play it up,
yet some think it is a proof against something,
are these proofs for or against Christianity.
Who the f*ck knows at this point the way
people think. Christmas is a Christian Holiday
that Western Nations recognized, Christian
days off, now invaders want to change that
for their own devious purposes.

Who is St Nicholas, I didn't even post about that.

Do people know, it is a real person, real history.
Because of his greatness and example he was
promoted and super human powers were given
to him in literature from man to legend, they do
the same to Jesus.

[bellevuebully]

Does anybody here really think that "Christmas" is not pagan Solstice in "Christian" clothing? Really?


Is oldmansmith just infantilebabysmith in old man cloths? Not really. Similar roots, but entirely different product. All history blends in to some degree, but as Magnes and RJB pointed out, it doesn't negate current genuine aspects of it just because there are similarities.

Even in the New Testament writings, there is plenty of evidence of how cultures were clashing. Paul was constantly trying to express to believers how the old rules they adhered to did not apply to new testament principles, but if it bothered them to the point of derailing their walk in faith, to not engage in them.

Ever shake someone's hand? Does that make you Greek?

History and culture is not digital....it is analogue.

[Horn]

Goldie was doing the same thing. Go see a key thread in religion section.
Christians built the West, if people don't think so go live in India.


People are going to explore their spirituality, Magnes.

Yes, of course it should be a personal journey, and also, it is most of the time easily read when it is organized & trying to discredit/harm others & or their religion.

I have no problem with them (the explorers), or the trolls, while you act as if they are eradicated the world will somehow be a better & more honest place. It reminds me of some of Hyper's ramblings on the differences between "the truth" & truth. As there is no place for the lies, or falsehoods. I would argue that one creates the other, or they (falsehoods) are integral part of truth, or the truth.

Some of the best threads are made there anyways.

If we had no knowledge of others religions & spirituality I'm almost positive the world would not be a better place, even though the one we have ain't quite right. We are all still part of a the great act.

I appreciated the following from, bellevuebully.


Paul was constantly trying to express to believers how the old rules they adhered to did not apply to new testament principles, but if it bothered them to the point of derailing their walk in faith, to not engage in them.

Ever shake someone's hand? Does that make you Greek?

History and culture is not digital....it is analogue.

[Book]

But since you ask who I am, I'll answer. I'm RealJack.



http://goldismoney2.com/showthread.php?12299-How-to-boycott-Israel-properly......&p=129373#post129373

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[oldmansmith]

Does anybody here really think that "Christmas" is not pagan Solstice in "Christian" clothing? Really?


Is oldmansmith just infantilebabysmith in old man cloths? Not really. Similar roots, but entirely different product. All history blends in to some degree, but as Magnes and RJB pointed out, it doesn't negate current genuine aspects of it just because there are similarities.

Even in the New Testament writings, there is plenty of evidence of how cultures were clashing. Paul was constantly trying to express to believers how the old rules they adhered to did not apply to new testament principles, but if it bothered them to the point of derailing their walk in faith, to not engage in them.

Ever shake someone's hand? Does that make you Greek?

History and culture is not digital....it is analogue.


There are so many lies wrapped up in Christmas that I don't celebrate (although I do celebrate the return of the sun, solstice, being in the frozen white north).

The biggest two:

* Christ was born on Christmas (I know many Christians know this, but then why do they still celebrate what is obviously the pagan holiday Solstice?)
* Santa Claus (my mother told me the worst thing one could do was to lie...while she lied to me).

So now it has beome a consumer driven orgy that requires you to buy people things they don't want with money you don't have. What percentage of presents are not used? The waste in Christmas makes me sick.

[Horn]

The waste in Christmas makes me sick.

I agree here, too.

Could be just as easily celebrated by lighting the menorah.

Only to add that the amount of Christians in the U.S. celebrating Halloween nearly eclipses those celebrating Christmas.

Nowhere in the bible have I heard it said that it was spiritually healthy to taunt the demons?

Some of them even bring the pagan spirit into Christmas & dress up as elves. ;D

[bellevuebully]

There are so many lies wrapped up in Christmas that I don't celebrate (although I do celebrate the return of the sun, solstice, being in the frozen white north).

The biggest two:

* Christ was born on Christmas (I know many Christians know this, but then why do they still celebrate what is obviously the pagan holiday Solstice?)
* Santa Claus (my mother told me the worst thing one could do was to lie...while she lied to me).

So now it has beome a consumer driven orgy that requires you to buy people things they don't want with money you don't have. What percentage of presents are not used? The waste in Christmas makes me sick.




I totally understand the points you are making. I don't think that I can change the fact that Christmas is celebrated on a certain day though. And I certainly won't stop celebrating Christ's birthday knowing that it is historically inaccurate because I don't know when he was born. And I also agree with you on the consurmeristic nature of Christmas, but it doesn't stop there.....I am pretty disgusted with consumerism in general, all year round.

Even though many choose to participate in the selfish indulgences of Christmas, that does not mean we have to also choose to. My family directs our attention to those in need, avoids buying for those who have, and requests others do the same for us in lieu of gifts. So for us, Christmas is an accurate depiction of what should be celebrated, namely Christ the Saviour......all of the other stuff is beyond my control.

There is a lot of truth in the old saying...'if you don't want to be a part of the problem, be a part of the solution.'.

[Awoke]

Bellevue Bully, I will post more on this when I get my book in my hands. I don't have it with me, but it covers the actual birthdate of Christ (Possible dates) and covers the reason that the emperor of Rome made December 25th Christmas.

Basically, Dec 25th was already a pagan ritual, and the people of Rome were largely pagan. When the Emperor made the switch to Christianity, he was a little worried that his subjects would rock the boat, so he made their Christian holiday fall on a pagan holiday date, so the pagans wouldn't feel overwhelmed or discontented. The ones who wanted to still celebrate their witchcraft could do so, and the ones who wanted to celebrate the birth of Jesus could do so too.

There are a few dates around that era that could have been his birthdate, based on some supernovas that occurred around that time (To provide thw star that lead the shepards)



Regarding Hallowe'en, back in the day Druids whould approach people in their homes for a maiden to sacrifice. If they got a compliant home who gave them a human sacrifice, they would leave a jackolantern there. If they did not, they would mark the door of the non-compliant household with a red Seal of Solomon, which is perversly and insultingly known as the "Star of David"
The Seal of Solomon on the door indicated that the militant arm of the druids should kill every person living under that roof.

Now, I haven't verified any of this with irrefutable evidence yet. I'm just repeating things I read from one book, so don't assume that I am convinced that all the above is true and accurate. I still need to dig into those topics more.
The book is called "The Six pointed star: It's origins and usage"

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71876HE6RGL.gif



I agree here, too.

Could be just as easily celebrated by lighting the menorah.



After reading this post, when I look at your avatar, I see this:

[bellevuebully]

Thanks Awoke. Yeah, I've got a pretty good understanding of how the Christmas date came to be with the transitions going on in the Roman empire at the time. I'm not overly concerned with Christ's actual birthday, more in what is means for us. ;)

You are a research-machine dude.

[Awoke]

Thanks Awoke. Yeah, I've got a pretty good understanding of how the Christmas date came to be with the transitions going on in the Roman empire at the time. I'm not overly concerned with Christ's actual birthday, more in what is means for us. ;)

You are a research-machine dude.



Also I wanted to mention some nice things about that book above are:

It is small, aka fits in your pocket.
It is a short read, one or two sittings, not daunting.
It is full of scripture, Old and New.
Full of history, old and new.
The broader subjects are expanded on in the back of the book, in their own appendices. Therefore it is very "to the point" and focused on the study of the origin and usage (or mis-usage) of the seal of solomon. For braoder subjects, where the author could have wandered away from the main topic, he has those separate sections set aside to exand in. Bravo for the layout of this book.

It's a great little book to buy and leave laying around in places for people to find if you have the spare fiat.