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MNeagle
20th December 2010, 02:32 PM
Submitted by Bruce Krasting on 12/20/2010 16:01 -0500




My very expensive Stihl “climbers” chainsaw won’t start. I yanked on it till my arm hurt and then threw it in the back of the truck. I toss in (the also expensive) back-pack blower that won’t start either. I go to the repair place. The guy in the back, behind the grease-stained counter has a grizzled look to him. He’s about 5’2”, 200 pounds, no hair to speak of and chewing an old, unlit cigar. He looks at me and my handful of machines and says, “What’s the matter, you can’t start em?”

I take this the wrong way and respond, “I’ve been starting these things for years. It ain’t me. It’s the damn machines!”

He eyes me and says, “Your problem is alcohol”.

Being pissed to begin with as a result of the sore arm, busted machines and wasted time this took me over the top and I snapped back, “My drinking has nothing do with the fucking machines!”

He takes a second, grins, and comes back with, “No, I meant the alcohol in the gas. That’s why the motors won’t start. I see a dozen just like em every week”.

So I shuffle and back-peddle a bit and listen while this guy explains to me that when alcohol exceeds 10% of regular gas it dissolves plastic engine parts. Things like fuel-lines or float gaskets in the carburetor. When the mixture is too rich the engine burns hot and wears out the rings. He explains that the legal limit is 10% but that all the fuel distributors cheat and mix in some extra alcohol so they can make a buck. When the mix gets to 15% it’s toxic for two cycle engines. And that is what killed my machines. He pulls off the gas line and shows me that it has deteriorated to the point where it has fused shut.

Armed with this new found underground information I go online to see if anyone else knows about this. Sure enough, it is all over the web. But what gave me a laugh was this article today: (Bloomberg link)



Carmakers, Engine Makers Challenge Rule Allowing 15% Ethanol in Gas


The premature introduction of mid-level ethanol blends (as a general purpose fuel) could result in unintended adverse impacts on the 250 million Americans who own and operate over 400 million motor vehicles, motorcycles, lawnmowers, chainsaws, recreational boats, ATVs, etc.


The EPA granted a request from ethanol producers, including Decatur, Illinois-based Archer Daniels Midland Co., to increase concentrations of the corn-based fuel additive in gasoline

This bit spells out the problem with alcohol and gas. The EPA has now proposed that all gas contain 15%. They want the subsidies for ethanol to be expanded. Along the way they are going to shorten the life of all the engines we use. Progress? Stupidity??

I’m thinking to myself that if the guy behind the greasy counter knows this, why don’t the bright folks in D.C.? Or do they know it and understand it, but they are doing it anyway because they have an axe to grind? Either way, it’s a sorry state of affairs.

By the way, the repairs cost me 175 bucks.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5JJarCb6DPo/TQ-_cNQglPI/AAAAAAAABt4/oKrFdFVpmkA/s400/565029399_f907509803.jpg

link zero hedge (http://www.zerohedge.com/article/too-much-alcohol?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+zerohedge%2Ffeed+%28zero+hedg e+-+on+a+long+enough+timeline%2C+the+survival+rate+fo r+everyone+drops+to+zero%29)

joe_momma
20th December 2010, 02:42 PM
It is all about the Iowa caucus - the first of the 'events' for a presidential candidate.

The one issue guaranteed to get votes for your candidate is to ensure the price of corn stays high (or will go higher) - requiring corn based ethanol in gasoline is the easiest way to increase demand (oh, then provide federal subsidies on top to the growers).

Ethanol may/may not be a viable alternative fuel, but never mistake the reason ethanol is in US gasoline - it is a bribe offered by every presidential hopeful in order to 'do well' in the first event.

(I don't see ethanol as a large scale solution - too many issues with the corrosive/hydrophilic properties to scale up to a nationwide solution until gasoline is closer to $10.00 (2010 cost adjusted for inflation) a gallon.)

hoarder
20th December 2010, 04:08 PM
Ethanol isn't much of a problem other than poor mileage on automotive engines that run everyday, but when it sits in a fuel tank or carburetor for a couple months it ruins everything.
You can find non-ethanol in mosts states: http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp That's an incomplete list, ask around at shops that sell small engines.



http://fuelschool.blogspot.com/2009/02/phase-separation-in-ethanol-blended.html

Cobalt
20th December 2010, 05:53 PM
I buy gas for my saws and weedeaters at the local coop since it is alcohol free, another place to find ethanol free gas is boating marinas since ethanol has been causing problems in the boating world for years so many marinas carry straight gas

You can also try sta-bil marine fuel stabilizer, it claims to reduce the problems associated with ethanol gas and gets quite a few positive reviews

Government Chee-tos
21st December 2010, 10:22 AM
Same thing happened to me on two saws and a blower that I run regularly. Now I only run ethanol free gas in everything but daily driven vehicles. Lots of problems in the marine industry with this crap.

MNeagle
21st December 2010, 12:28 PM
Thank you gentlemen, for all the fine comments. I'll have my husband look at this thread, as he rarely goes beyond the General Discussion page anymore.

Thanks again!

chad
21st December 2010, 12:56 PM
weirdly enough, i have seen 100% gas, no ethanol pop up at EVERY gas station in my town over the last 3 or 4 months.

mneagle, you guys even have that evil 85 over there...

Mouse
24th December 2010, 01:55 AM
I have run all my stuff on that evil 87 for over a year with no problems. I know you aren't supposed to, but I haven't had a problem. I think I must just use the stuff enough to keep from problems, or I am in for a bunch of big problems. I generally run saws till they are out of gas and that's when I know it's break or quitting time. The mowers and stuff, not so sure. I ran 87 out of my 300G tank all last winter and refilled it and have had no problems, but I pretty much only fill a ford truck which has a corn label on it and our lawn tractor. I hope I don't ruin any of my stuff. Maybe I should get a carb rebuild kit for the preps.......

hoarder
28th December 2010, 05:59 AM
The only kind of non-ethanol available in my region is non-ethanol premium, which costs 40 to 50 cents a gallon more than what is called "regular" these days. You can't get a lower octane non-ethanol here.
That said, I still run the cheap gas in my daily driver. The county I live in has outlawed non-ethanol so I have to stock up in a neighboring county.

big country
28th December 2010, 06:42 PM
I have run all my stuff on that evil 87 for over a year with no problems. I know you aren't supposed to, but I haven't had a problem. I think I must just use the stuff enough to keep from problems, or I am in for a bunch of big problems. I generally run saws till they are out of gas and that's when I know it's break or quitting time. The mowers and stuff, not so sure. I ran 87 out of my 300G tank all last winter and refilled it and have had no problems, but I pretty much only fill a ford truck which has a corn label on it and our lawn tractor. I hope I don't ruin any of my stuff. Maybe I should get a carb rebuild kit for the preps.......


Whats wrong with running 87 octane? In fact both of the owners manuals for my cars recommend 87 octane.

I think the "evil 85" reference was for E85 which is 85% ethanol iirc and you are only supposed to run it if you have a car labeled for E85 (usually a sticker/decal/label on the rear end of the car...can't miss it if your car is labeled for it)

Government Chee-tos
28th December 2010, 09:07 PM
I have run all my stuff on that evil 87 for over a year with no problems. I know you aren't supposed to, but I haven't had a problem. I think I must just use the stuff enough to keep from problems, or I am in for a bunch of big problems. I generally run saws till they are out of gas and that's when I know it's break or quitting time. The mowers and stuff, not so sure. I ran 87 out of my 300G tank all last winter and refilled it and have had no problems, but I pretty much only fill a ford truck which has a corn label on it and our lawn tractor. I hope I don't ruin any of my stuff. Maybe I should get a carb rebuild kit for the preps.......


Whats wrong with running 87 octane? In fact both of the owners manuals for my cars recommend 87 octane.

I think the "evil 85" reference was for E85 which is 85% ethanol iirc and you are only supposed to run it if you have a car labeled for E85 (usually a sticker/decal/label on the rear end of the car...can't miss it if your car is labeled for it)


E85 is 15% ethanol. Most gasoline is now blended with 10% ethanol. Nothing wrong with running 87 octane if your vehicle runs well on it. Some of mine I run 87 , others like 89 better.

big country
29th December 2010, 05:14 PM
From Wikipedia:


E85 is an abbreviation for flex fuel meaning a mixture of up to 85% denatured fuel ethanol and gasoline or other hydrocarbon (HC) by volume. Some vehicles such as the Ford Model T can operate on 100 percent pure alcohol fuel, however it is more common to combine gasoline and ethanol to receive some benefits from both fuel types.[1]

Some of the benefits of E85 over conventional gasoline powered vehicles include the potential for localized production of fuel in agricultural areas. Another benefit is potentially reduced pollution emissions especially Carbon dioxide in Earth's atmosphere which is an important element for adaptation to global warming.

Potential benefits of E85 are contested by some experts who point out that deriving gasoline from petroleum is a relatively inexpensive (i.e. more efficient) process even including the transportation of oil and gasoline long distances. Large-scale production of ethanol may be cost prohibitive; and may result in a net energy loss when taking into account all the energy required to make alcohol from starchy plants. Another drawback for E85 is that, in a liter-to-liter comparison, E85 has less power potential than conventional gasoline; about 12-25 percent less energy for transportation by volume.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

Ash_Williams
29th December 2010, 06:02 PM
When I bought my Stihl chainsaw the girl at the dealer warned me to use only non-ethanol fuels. She was maybe 16 at most. I found it funny to learn something important from someone that, at first glance, I had assumed knew nothing. Up here you have to go premium for non-ethanol, and only at certain gas stations. I changed my "prep fuel" over to premium once learning that, to cover all bases.

This also lead me to discover that one of my trucks did noticeably better on premium. A chevy pickup. The difference is enough that I use premium if I'm planning a long trip to reduce the chances I'll need to stop for gas.

hoarder
29th December 2010, 06:13 PM
This also lead me to discover that one of my trucks did noticeably better on premium. A chevy pickup.
To realize the full benefit of premium, advance the timing a few degrees. In some instances the extra cost of premium is offset by better gas mileage.

Government Chee-tos
30th December 2010, 07:34 AM
This also lead me to discover that one of my trucks did noticeably better on premium. A chevy pickup.
To realize the full benefit of premium, advance the timing a few degrees. In some instances the extra cost of premium is offset by better gas mileage.


I have a chevy that I was having to run premium in to keep the pinging down. I started running 87 octane gas from BP and it cleared up. I went back to another brand and it started back within a 1/4 of a tank. So I run 87 octane "BP with Invigorate" in the Chevy, and 89 in every other daily driven vehicles, and 89 Non Ethanol in everything else not run or driven daily.

hoarder
30th December 2010, 07:43 AM
I have a chevy that I was having to run premium in to keep the pinging down. I started running 87 octane BP and it cleared up. I went back to another brand and it started back within a 1/4 of a tank. So I run 87 octane "BP with Invigorate" in the Chevy, and 89 in everything else.
If the timing is too far advanced, detonation will occur. Octane overcomes detonation.

MNeagle
30th December 2010, 03:41 PM
Ethanol causing confusion at the pump
The EPA recently approved higher ethanol mixes at the pump, but a number of industries are lining up against the change, noting dangers for other power equipment.


http://stmedia.startribune.com/images/123*260/1Juice1231.jpg
WASHINGTON -- It seems like a great idea: Increase the amount of renewable ethanol from grain at the gas station and decrease America's reliance on foreign oil.

But a push to add another 50 percent to the ethanol content of some automobile fuel has opened a barrel of worms. Automakers say they don't know how it will affect their cars; power-equipment and boat manufacturers are predicting calamitous mis-fueling; and gas station owners are looking at a slew of legal and logistical impediments.

The Environmental Protection Agency has approved a request from the ethanol industry to allow ethanol content in a gallon of gas to climb from 10 to 15 percent. The waiver to the Clean Air Act to permit so-called E15 fuel applies only to cars and light trucks made since model year 2007, but the Outdoor Power Equipment Institute and manufacturers argue that once gas stations sell it, consumers will mis-fuel their power equipment, with terrible results.

The availability of E15 could produce "a train wreck in the marketplace," said the institute's attorney, Bill Guerry.

Opponents of E15 are considering a concerted legal action to try to reverse the waiver. "We don't know the long-term effects of E15 on automobiles," said Gloria Bergquist of the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers. "There's a sweep of studies underway now, and we had urged EPA to wait until next year when more of these studies would be concluded."

In approving the waiver Oct. 13, EPA Administrator Lisa Jackson said "thorough testing has shown that E15 does not harm emissions control equipment in newer cars and light trucks."

For veteran power-equipment guys such as Mick Matuskey, the prospect of E15 entering the fuel stream is vexing. Matuskey, co-owner of Power and Lawn Equipment in Gaithersburg, Md., has been in the business for 44 years and remembers when snowblowers, chain saws and mowers lasted much longer.

"You're getting half of the life out of the product today compared to 30, 40 years ago," he said.

Cheaper components and higher running temperatures are taking their toll. But critics say a 15 percent ethanol blend would shorten engine life more and make equipment prone to fuel leaks and fire hazards. Apart from causing engines to run hotter, ethanol fuel eats away at rubber components.

"E15 is going to make fuel lines on older equipment turn to mush a lot faster," Matuskey said. "You've got spillage and environmental issues as well as fire and safety issues."

Prentiss Searles of the American Petroleum Institute said, "Having seals fail on your backpack blower isn't a good thing, because you've got a gas tank sitting on your back."

Tools such as trimmers, mowers and blowers generally use engine technologies long abandoned by carmakers: air cooling, carburetion and, often, two-cycle engines fueled by an oil-gas mix . Ethanol blends cause engines to run leaner and hotter -- modern auto engines can adjust for that; lawn mowers and chain saws cannot.

Today's gas-pump blend, ubiquitous and known as E10, pushes power equipment to the limit, said Kris Kiser, the petroleum group's executive vice president. With E15, "our machines fail," he said.

The institute says its members can develop machines that will run on more ethanol, just as they are making them less polluting. But there are as many as 200 million existing pieces of equipment now in jeopardy, used by homeowners, landscapers, foresters, companies and institutions.

Stephanie Dreyer, spokeswoman for the ethanol coalition that requested the waiver, Growth Energy, said labels at the pump, to be required by the EPA, will explicitly direct consumers to the right type of fuel. "There are two types of diesel on the road now, and they are indicated by a label," she said. "And as far as we know it hasn't been a problem."

The use of E15 in cars, she said, "will accelerate the use of renewable fuel, increase energy security, create jobs, reduce transportation costs and improve the environment." Dreyer said it will also encourage investment in the next generation of ethanol made from a variety of plant materials.

Cathy Milbourn, an EPA spokeswoman, says the agency is not advocating E15 but simply responding to a waiver request under the clean-air statute.

The waiver covers about one-fifth of the vehicles on the road. The agency is waiting for further engine emission tests by the Energy Department before deciding whether to extend approval of E15 for cars built since 2001.

If the agency extends the waiver back to model-year-2001 vehicles, E15 would be approved in more than half the automobiles in the country, a percentage that would grow as older cars are scrapped.

Power-equipment makers say consumers filling a portable gas can while also fueling their vehicles are not going to pay attention to a sign telling them to use E15 only in approved automobiles. They also speculate that gasoline retailers will make more money from E15 than E10, and if it becomes legal for 54 percent of automobiles, "at some point there is likely to be a wholesale transfer over to a majority fuel," Guerry said.

In time, E10 may no longer be available, at which point, Guerry said, "people are going to be stuck filling their portable containers with E15 no matter how effective the mis-fueling regulation is."



http://www.startribune.com/business/112682719.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUi D3aPc:_Yyc:aULPQL7PQLanchO7DiUss