The 1911 is an Outdated Design

[osoab]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qplhkyBaWDA&feature=player_embedded#!

I'll post my comments a little later.

[Rebel Yarr]

1911 is fine for some - personally I prefer more than 8 rounds in my pistol. My pistol is for getting to my rifle or for CCW. The 9mm has come a long way and as a personal preference I prefer the high round count over the larger caliber as well as smaller form factor options for CCW.

Again, personal preference - in some cases that 8 rounds of .45 is a better option than 16 rounds of 9mm and vise versa.....

[Quixote2]

13 rounds of .45 double stacked is best.

[crazychicken]

THAT IS THE REASON THEY MAKE VANILLA, CHOCOLATE AND STRAWBERRY ICE CREAM.

EVERYONE HAS DIFFERENT TASTES.

The 45 is only for those who think firing more than once is a waste of ammo. But if the sound of lots of shots turns you on, then the ..... is your your best choice.

Doesn't matter if you are driving a F16, it still comes down to correct shot placement.

CC

[IHS]

Weeelllll doggies, Billy Bob can keep his 1911.

I'll take the Glock 21.


IHS

[steyr_m]

Weeelllll doggies, Billy Bob can keep his 1911.

I'll take the Glock 21.


IHS


I'll take a Sig 220

[Dogman]

1911 is a classic , Sure there are others out there that now can beat it.
But for proven , long life , be there when you need it,

Think Timex watch.

I would be proud to have one in my battery! clips are easy to carry! ;D

[solid]

The 45 is only for those who think firing more than once is a waste of ammo. But if the sound of lots of shots turns you on, then the ..... is your your best choice.


The first 2-3 seconds, decides your life. That first 2-3 rounds you send their way, makes a difference. After that, it's just insurance. The 45 will stop a threat quickly, that's what it's designed to do.

IMO, less rounds to do what needs to be done to save your life.

Think about this, you lose 3/4 of second just by recognizing the threat. That's the time your eye sees the gun, and sends the message to your brain. That's a lot of time the perp has a drop on you already.

It's worth it to have a bigger round, even though less of them, to stop the threat as soon as possible.

[Horn]

The first 2-3 seconds, decides your life. That first 2-3 rounds you send their way, makes a difference. After that, it's just insurance. The 45 will stop a threat quickly, that's what it's designed to do.

IMO, The chances of you hitting anything in a 1911 are greatly reduced.

Unless you practice with it religiously.

[midnight rambler]

Those who know and love the Gov't Model KNOW that there is absolutely no other pistol out there which can outclass the lightning fast speed of presentation of the Gov't Model, i.e. once you've made it an extension of your body. Old timers will tell you that if you can't take out the threat with 7 rounds you might as well give up.

I'm intending to get a XDM in .45, but I'm NEVER gonna to part with my super sweet Wilson Colt Series 70.

[IHS]

Old timers will tell you that if you can't take out the threat with 7 rounds you might as well give up.


BTW, I am an "old timer". Many of them "old timers" have never been in a gunfight, much less with multiple assailants...

Good Luck.



IHS

[crazychicken]

Well said---
My position is the 1911--8 round mags, 1 in the weapon and two on the belt, plus one in the chamber--gives you 25 rounds.

CC



BTW, I am an "old timer". Many of them "old timers" have never been in a gunfight, much less with multiple assailants...

Good Luck.



IHS

[midnight rambler]

Old timers will tell you that if you can't take out the threat with 7 rounds you might as well give up.


BTW, I am an "old timer". Many of them "old timers" have never been in a gunfight, much less with multiple assailants...

Good Luck.



IHS




I get the 'old timer' mindset from a very salty Korean war vet I know who was with Chesty Puller at Chosin Reservoir when the discussion came 'round to the 7+1+1 capacity on my Benelli M4.

And FWIW, I have been in mortal combat where I was limited to the five rounds in my 12 ga pump shotgun when I retrieved it. The fight was over pretty much by the 4th shot and help arrived before I had an empty magazine. Sure, having beau coup ammo on you in high capacity magazines is optimum, but sometimes it just doesn't work out that way.

[kregener]

I also carry 2 extra mags in a paddle on my left hip.

[crazychicken]

The five rounds in the pump gun statement sounds like a fellow "time in SE Asia guy". If I am right WELCOME HOME.I carried a pump ONCE over there. Once. World turned to shit and I could not remember to manually cycle. D==b F+++k! ME!

Next time I did point in heavy stuff I carried two 1911s, one in each hand. 7 + 1 = sixteen rounds was a whole lot better than 5.

Happy New Year to ya!

CC








Old timers will tell you that if you can't take out the threat with 7 rounds you might as well give up.


BTW, I am an "old timer". Many of them "old timers" have never been in a gunfight, much less with multiple assailants...

Good Luck.



IHS




I get the 'old timer' mindset from a very salty Korean war vet I know who was with Chesty Puller at Chosin Reservoir when the discussion came 'round to the 7+1+1 capacity on my Benelli M4.

And FWIW, I have been in mortal combat where I was limited to the five rounds in my 12 ga pump shotgun when I retrieved it. The fight was over pretty much by the 4th shot and help arrived before I had an empty magazine. Sure, having beau coup ammo on you in high capacity magazines is optimum, but sometimes it just doesn't work out that way.

[crazychicken]

All the opinions aside--The very best weapon is the one YOU are effective with. It does not matter what the other guy has, you have to be comfortable and effective with yours.

Happy New Year to all!

God Bless Our Troops-Yesterday, Today, and God Help Us --- Tomorrow.

CC





The five rounds in the pump gun statement sounds like a fellow "time in SE Asia guy". If I am right WELCOME HOME.I carried a pump ONCE over there. Once. World turned to sh*t and I could not remember to manually cycle. D==b F+++k! ME!

Next time I did point in heavy stuff I carried two 1911s, one in each hand. 7 + 1 = sixteen rounds was a whole lot better than 5.

Happy New Year to ya!

CC







I get the 'old timer' mindset from a very salty Korean war vet I know who was with Chesty Puller at Chosin Reservoir when the discussion came 'round to the 7+1+1 capacity on my Benelli M4.

And FWIW, I have been in mortal combat where I was limited to the five rounds in my 12 ga pump shotgun when I retrieved it. The fight was over pretty much by the 4th shot and help arrived before I had an empty magazine. Sure, having beau coup ammo on you in high capacity magazines is optimum, but sometimes it just doesn't work out that way.
[/quote]
[/quote]

[midnight rambler]

World turned to sh*t and I could not remember to manually cycle. D==b F+++k! ME!

Also, short stroking a pump is an easy thing to do during stressfire, and that's exactly what happened to me - momentarily. A real sinking feeling follows.

[mike88]

Browning Hi Power for me.

[Gaillo]

Some 1911 ramblings.

The 1911 is now a 100 year old design. At the time of it's inception, it was undoubtably the best thing on the block... many of the innovations in it's design were truly groundbreaking. However, I don't think it was the pinnacle of handgun design by any stretch... as many 1911 fans believe.

The 2nd handgun I ever owned (and my first large caliber handgun) was a Norinco copy of a 1911... it had a few problems at the start, but a bit of smithing and I had it up and running like a swiss watch. A few years later, I picked up a pair of Colt Delta Elite 10mm's, also based on the 1911 design. Sold one of them a few weeks later (recouping the cost of both!) and shot the HELL out of the other one until a good friend made me an offer for it that was too good to pass up. My final adventure in 1911 land involved a Colt double-stacked mag model (I've since forgot the exact model) and I had constant jams, misfeeds, stovepipes, etc. that I couldn't get rid of no matter how much time I put into it. VERY frustrating. I've shot, smithed, and handled many 1911's since, but haven't met one that I've really wanted to own (with the exception of a friend's vintage WWII era model in mint condition, which I still lust after!) ;D

My take on the whole thing is this: The 1911 is a fine gun for those who are willing to put in the time, money, attention, and training it requires. It's definitely NOT a Glock, out of the box trouble-free banging away, it's more like a finely tuned racecar - which requires constant attention and maintenance to run optimally. I FIRMLY BELIEVE that the 1911 MUST be produced to the original type (single stack, loose fit, ball ammo, NOT a customized accurized "racegun" using hollowpoints) in order to achieve consistently reliable, trouble-free operation. Put every shot inside a pie plate at 10 yards and you've met the design goals of the gun... expect more from the platform and you rapidly begin trading away reliability for whatever increases in accuracy, mag capacity, "race gun" appeal, etc. you gain. Call me crazy or stupid if you want... but I've had enough experience with the platform to be confident in that assessment.

Would I own one again? Probably... but I wouldn't expect the same things from it that I expect from my mainline defensive handguns... it would be more of a "curio" piece of history type of gun, to be shot and enjoyed... and used defensively as a last resort. All of my defensive guns are dual-stack 9mm's currently. Over the years, I've gone from the "bigger is better" mindset to the "soft-recoiling, accurate, high volume of fire is better" mindset. I'm pretty sure the caliber debates will go on until the end of human civilization, and nothing I can say will settle the matter... so all that I'll add is that small and large caliber handguns both do what they're designed for - and both do it very well in the hands of an experienced shooter.

If you choose to use a 1911 as your main defensive handgun, all I can say is pay meticulous attention to it, maintain it to the extreme, spend the time to figure out which ammo it performs best with, and practice... practice... practice.

[SWRichmond]

Some 1911 ramblings.

The 1911 is now a 100 year old design. At the time of it's inception, it was undoubtably the best thing on the block... many of the innovations in it's design were truly groundbreaking. However, I don't think it was the pinnacle of handgun design by any stretch... as many 1911 fans believe.

The 2nd handgun I ever owned (and my first large caliber handgun) was a Norinco copy of a 1911... it had a few problems at the start, but a bit of smithing and I had it up and running like a swiss watch. A few years later, I picked up a pair of Colt Delta Elite 10mm's, also based on the 1911 design. Sold one of them a few weeks later (recouping the cost of both!) and shot the HELL out of the other one until a good friend made me an offer for it that was too good to pass up. My final adventure in 1911 land involved a Colt double-stacked mag model (I've since forgot the exact model) and I had constant jams, misfeeds, stovepipes, etc. that I couldn't get rid of no matter how much time I put into it. VERY frustrating. I've shot, smithed, and handled many 1911's since, but haven't met one that I've really wanted to own (with the exception of a friend's vintage WWII era model in mint condition, which I still lust after!) ;D

My take on the whole thing is this: The 1911 is a fine gun for those who are willing to put in the time, money, attention, and training it requires. It's definitely NOT a Glock, out of the box trouble-free banging away, it's more like a finely tuned racecar - which requires constant attention and maintenance to run optimally. I FIRMLY BELIEVE that the 1911 MUST be produced to the original type (single stack, loose fit, ball ammo, NOT a customized accurized "racegun" using hollowpoints) in order to achieve consistently reliable, trouble-free operation. Put every shot inside a pie plate at 10 yards and you've met the design goals of the gun... expect more from the platform and you rapidly begin trading away reliability for whatever increases in accuracy, mag capacity, "race gun" appeal, etc. you gain. Call me crazy or stupid if you want... but I've had enough experience with the platform to be confident in that assessment.

Would I own one again? Probably... but I wouldn't expect the same things from it that I expect from my mainline defensive handguns... it would be more of a "curio" piece of history type of gun, to be shot and enjoyed... and used defensively as a last resort. All of my defensive guns are dual-stack 9mm's currently. Over the years, I've gone from the "bigger is better" mindset to the "soft-recoiling, accurate, high volume of fire is better" mindset. I'm pretty sure the caliber debates will go on until the end of human civilization, and nothing I can say will settle the matter... so all that I'll add is that small and large caliber handguns both do what they're designed for - and both do it very well in the hands of an experienced shooter.

If you choose to use a 1911 as your main defensive handgun, all I can say is pay meticulous attention to it, maintain it to the extreme, spend the time to figure out which ammo it performs best with, and practice... practice... practice.


Other than your exhortations to "practice practice practice", you clearly don't know what you're talking about. I've never owned a double stack .45 and never will. If John Browning had wanted a double stack magazine to work with the 1911's slide geometry he'd have designed it that way. Your assertions about accuracy are worse than silly. Factory Glock pistols accurate? You gotta be shitting me. The triggers are positively icky. Barrel lockup is horrendous. The sights are poor. And proper ammunition choice is more important to a Glock than it is to a 1911.

Kimber and many of the late-comers to the 1911 market have given the platform a bad name. Stories of improper magazine well angle and other feed-wrecking horrors abound. These late-comers hope to jump on the popularity bandwagon of the 1911 by flooding the market with cheap knockoffs, and in the case of Kimber, expensive and very pretty knockoffs.

A tight series 70 gold cup will eat anything you feed it. Change the recoil spring (30 seconds) if you want to shoot very light target ammo. You can even shoot cast lead out of a 1911. No so with your Glocks.

Oh, and you're right about one other thing: the 1911 is definitely NOT a Glock.

[Ash_Williams]

Nothing's perfect.
It's certainly a classic though.
And probably the #1 choice for gun-bling.

[crazychicken]

The 1911 design is certainly an old design----------------------------------THAT WORKS.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

The ONLY large caliber semi auto pistol design we will ever own. 38 Super and 45 ACP. More than a couple of each. Colt, Springfield and Wilson Combat.

CC

[Awoke]

Funny.

I don't own a 1911, but I have shot a lot of them, and I have always found I am more accurate with a 1911 over any other gun, including my own guns. (9mm and .40 Poly fighters)

[mightymanx]

Can we start a AR-15/AK-47 debate next?

How about Ford/Chevy?

[skid]

My Norinco 1911 has no problem with hollowpoints. I also don't think the 45 recoils hard at all.

I was thinking of buying the norinco double stack (10 rounds). For $370 brand new it seems like a good deal http://www.marstar.ca/gf-norinco/1911A1-NP-30.shtm although they are now sold out. For the price I'll give it a try...

[Awoke]

My Norinco 1911 has no problem with hollowpoints. I also don't think the 45 recoils hard at all.

I was thinking of buying the norinco double stack (10 rounds). For $370 brand new it seems like a good deal http://www.marstar.ca/gf-norinco/1911A1-NP-30.shtm although they are now sold out. For the price I'll give it a try...


I have shot a couple of those now. The trigger is gritty, but if you do a bit of work to it, they play very nicely.

They shoot good, but that trigger needs some lovin' out of the box.

[Walter Mitty]

It is not outdated.
But the Glock is superior in a number of areas.
With the glock there are no thumb or grip safeties to worry about.
If you miss your grip it will still fire.
If you miss your grip with the 1911 and do not get the grip safety
depressed properly it wont fire..
Also it is easier (faster ) to draw the Glock from the Appendix Inside the Waistban carry position.
I use a 1911. I do not conceal carry much, but from now on when I carry it the grip safety gets taped down.
Regardless of what pistol you use, Train, Train ,Train.
You need to wear the finish off the slide with drawing and dry fire practice.

[crazychicken]

Carry the 1911 with the grip safety taped down???
Please tell what state you live in or area of the country you frequent so I can avoid close contact!
CC




It is not outdated.
But the Glock is superior in a number of areas.
With the glock there are no thumb or grip safeties to worry about.
If you miss your grip it will still fire.
If you miss your grip with the 1911 and do not get the grip safety
depressed properly it wont fire..
Also it is easier (faster ) to draw the Glock from the Appendix Inside the Waistban carry position.
I use a 1911. I do not conceal carry much, but from now on when I carry it the grip safety gets taped down.
Regardless of what pistol you use, Train, Train ,Train.
You need to wear the finish off the slide with drawing and dry fire practice.

[mightymanx]

For what it's worth the Military quit teaching the Weaver stance 10 years ago. They ditched in favor of the natural stance.

[platinumdude]

Isn't the 1911 a pain to clean it? I prefer simpler designs to clean like a Springfield XDm or a glock.

[crazychicken]

Isn't the 1911 a pain to clean it? I prefer simpler designs to clean like a Springfield XDm or a glock.


1911A1 a pain to clean???? XDm and Glocks easier???????
I have some ocean-front property in Arizona available cheap. Throw in a bridge in Kalifornia no extra charge! Complete with toll booths.

CC

[mightymanx]

For what it's worth the Military quit teaching the Weaver stance 10 years ago. They ditched in favor of the natural stance.


But is it better?...what about rapid fire?



Yes and Yes plus it does not lead with the gap in your body armor like the weaver stance does, it also allows you to stay in the position longer (basicly forever) without causing muscle twitching from all the push pull and unnatural position stuff.
http://firearms.atactv.com/?mediaId=210

[SHTF2010]

IF I HAD A 1911, i would stick with it ( never tried Glocks )

like the AK47, it's a time tested firearm

[mightymanx]

For what it's worth the Military quit teaching the Weaver stance 10 years ago. They ditched in favor of the natural stance.


But is it better?...what about rapid fire?



Yes and Yes plus it does not lead with the gap in your body armor like the weaver stance does, it also allows you to stay in the position longer (basicly forever) without causing muscle twitching from all the push pull and unnatural position stuff.
http://firearms.atactv.com/?mediaId=210



I can see how a modified Isosceles is preferred to a modified Weaver for LE and military wearing body armor...I do not wear it.
As far as staying in position longer, if you are in a sustained firefight...I think you better be moving and grooving and not standing there.
Each has it's own merits but as far as one being better then the other, I don't think so...it depends on the situation.

Next question, was the US military switching to the Beretta 92 from the 1911 Government Model, better? :-\


I personaly feel that pistols in combat are to fight your way to somthing larger so carrying a pistol with 15 rounds and 2 spare mags mags (standard load) is much better. It allows you to be anoying much longer.

[SWRichmond]

If you carry a .45, you won't have to shoot everything twice; though, depending on the number of targets, you might choose to do so anyway.

I cannot personally imagine a condition where I actually had my hand on a 1911 in anything that could be called a "grip" and NOT have depressed the grip safety. If you have trouble with this you need to practice drawing. The Series-80 firing pin safety is also active on my carry gun and it presents no problem at all, since I polished the sliding surfaces and lube them lightly and have installed an aftermarket trigger with a trigger stop.

Weaver stance is so unnatural it will makes me miss, which defeats the purpose of firing.

A 1911 needs a beavertail grip safety (comfort and draw speed), an extended ambi thumb safety, and three dot sights; most of them come that way nowadays.

Glocks will fail to cycle if you do not grip them properly, as numerous youtube vids have demonstrated.

[platinumdude]

Isn't the 1911 a pain to clean it? I prefer simpler designs to clean like a Springfield XDm or a glock.


1911A1 a pain to clean???? XDm and Glocks easier???????
I have some ocean-front property in Arizona available cheap. Throw in a bridge in Kalifornia no extra charge! Complete with toll booths.

CC




Obviously you haven't cleaned many Xdms, here is a comment I found, and the XD has a very slight advantage. But I don't care too much about this pistol is better than that pistol because I'm a rifle man.


From another site of one who ones both:
Breakdown/Maintenance - XD is easier to breakdown but I don't note any big advantage between the two. 1911 requires an allen wrench, XD requires a trigger pull if either of those are an issue to you.

[crazychicken]

There are no allen wrenches on my Colt Officer or Commander. But obviously you aren't smart enough to know. You ass U med. I have two, that is 2 XDm's, one for my wife and one for my daughter. You probably know that also.

You might know, probably not, that I can change out my 1911 sear, extractor, firing pin and barrel in less time than filling the fuel tank in my truck.

I'll bet you $100 to a very stale donut that you can't do that with your XDm. And I like the XDm.

CC






Isn't the 1911 a pain to clean it? I prefer simpler designs to clean like a Springfield XDm or a glock.


1911A1 a pain to clean???? XDm and Glocks easier???????
I have some ocean-front property in Arizona available cheap. Throw in a bridge in Kalifornia no extra charge! Complete with toll booths.

CC




Obviously you haven't cleaned many Xdms, here is a comment I found, and the XD has a very slight advantage. But I don't care too much about this pistol is better than that pistol because I'm a rifle man.


From another site of one who ones both:
Breakdown/Maintenance - XD is easier to breakdown but I don't note any big advantage between the two. 1911 requires an allen wrench, XD requires a trigger pull if either of those are an issue to you.

[platinumdude]

I think you are not doing it right. You cant tell me you can't fill your tank quicker than this


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELCY2iUfSEQ

[crazychicken]

Unless that video is of you doing it, then it has no bearing on your comments.

CC




I think you are not doing it right. You cant tell me you can't fill your tank quicker than this


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELCY2iUfSEQ

[osoab]

There are no allen wrenches on my Colt Officer or Commander. But obviously you aren't smart enough to know. You ass U med. I have two, that is 2 XDm's, one for my wife and one for my daughter. You probably know that also.

You might know, probably not, that I can change out my 1911 sear, extractor, firing pin and barrel in less time than filling the fuel tank in my truck.

I'll bet you $100 to a very stale donut that you can't do that with your XDm. And I like the XDm.

CC






Isn't the 1911 a pain to clean it? I prefer simpler designs to clean like a Springfield XDm or a glock.


1911A1 a pain to clean???? XDm and Glocks easier???????
I have some ocean-front property in Arizona available cheap. Throw in a bridge in Kalifornia no extra charge! Complete with toll booths.

CC




Obviously you haven't cleaned many Xdms, here is a comment I found, and the XD has a very slight advantage. But I don't care too much about this pistol is better than that pistol because I'm a rifle man.


From another site of one who ones both:
Breakdown/Maintenance - XD is easier to breakdown but I don't note any big advantage between the two. 1911 requires an allen wrench, XD requires a trigger pull if either of those are an issue to you.



100 gallon tanks don't count. ;D

[crazychicken]

Osaab--------------

[100 gallon tanks don't count.
[/quote]

I'll give you that one! :D

CC

[Black Blade]

For the money you can get a decent functional Rock Island 1911. I find them to be as good or better than my Colt 1911 guns. I do occassionally CCW my Argentine Sistema Colt tho.

http://images.yuku.com/image/jpg/d9d369761fd0d6bec0a5ddd6b419d9b4cf9f0366_r.jpg

Argentine DGFM-FMAP (Sistema) 1927 Colt .45 (Aeronautica Argentina - Argentine Air Force) Built in 1955 . Modified w/ high visibility rear sight, dovetail front sight, bead blasted & Armaloyed, action worked, stainless guide rod, stainless steel hex grip screws & mag catch, Brown 20LPI checkered / flat / SS main spring housing, barrel & ramp polished, Custom Rosewood grips.

[Awoke]

Good to see you BlLackBlade.

More reviews please.