Churches are walking away too

[EE_]

Churches Find End Is Nigh

The Number of Religious Facilities Unable to Pay Their Mortgage Is Surging
Article By SHELLY BANJO

ROSEVILLE, Calif.—Residential and commercial real-estate owners aren't the only ones losing their properties to foreclosure. The past few years have seen a rapid acceleration in the number of churches losing their sanctuaries because they can't pay the mortgage.

Just as homeowners borrowed too much or built too big during boom times, many churches did the same and now are struggling as their congregations shrink and collections fall owing to rising unemployment and a weak economy.

Since 2008, nearly 200 religious facilities have been foreclosed on by banks, up from eight during the previous two years and virtually none in the decade before that, according to real-estate services firm CoStar Group, Inc. Analysts and bankers say hundreds of additional churches face financial struggles so severe they could face foreclosure or bankruptcy in the near future.

"Churches are the next wave in this economic crisis," says Rev. Jesse L. Jackson Sr., president and founder of the Rainbow PUSH Coalition, a non-profit civil-rights group, who works with pastors around the country to help churches negotiate better terms with their bankers.

Religious denominations of all kinds have suffered in recent years as donations have declined, with many Catholic parishes closing and synagogues merging their congregations. But the property-financing problems have been concentrated among independent churches, which while seeking to expand lack a governing body to serve as a backstop to financial hardship.

"Religious organizations may be subject to the laws of God but they are also subject to the laws of economics," said Chris Macke, senior real-estate strategist at CoStar. Many troubled churches, he said, are in states such as California, Florida, Georgia and Michigan, which also have some of the highest home-foreclosures rates in the country.

In many cases, churches ran into trouble after borrowing to build bigger houses of worship needed to accommodate growing congregations in once-booming housing markets.

Pastors Rich and Lindy Oliver decided their Family Christian Center needed more space after their congregation rose from a few hundred in the early 1990s to 650 by 2002. The church borrowed $4.2 million and began building a new 1,000-person sanctuary on 11 acres in Orangevale, Calif., including classrooms and a space for adult learning.

Across the U.S., churches are losing their sanctuaries because they can't pay their mortgage debt. Some borrowed too much or built too big during boom times and now are struggling as congregations -- and collections -- shrink.
But when housing prices across California began tumbling in 2006, followed by a surge in unemployment and foreclosures, many congregants moved away, and those who were left reduced their tithing sharply. Meanwhile, the property, valued at $8.5 million in 2002 was appraised at just $2.5 million in 2008.

Stretched to the limit, the pastors stopped making payments. "I just told the bank to take it," Mr. Oliver said. "If you're a church with a piece of property upside down and no one will refinance the loan or lend you more money, there's not really another choice but to walk away."

Bankers and lenders typically are reluctant to "foreclose on God" and seek to work out deals with churches. But none proved possible in the Olivers' case.

These days, Mr. Oliver said his church, renamed The Family Church, was "doing what the rest of America is doing—we're cutting back and simplifying." In November, the Olivers raised $700,000—not nearly enough to rescue the previous church—from donations and personal loans from church members and used it to lease a former furniture store in a strip mall in Roseville, Calif.

Traditionally, lenders considered churches good risks because of the weekly cash flow generated by tithing, as well as the moral compulsion felt by most pastors to pay down debt.

Like many churches, Mr. Oliver used bond financing, not a straight mortgage, to fund construction. Historically, churches wanting to build turned to their governing bodies or to specialized lenders that originated fixed-rate 25-year to 30-year mortgages. During the real-estate boom,

But during the real-estate boom, regional and community banks attracted churches with lower rates on shorter-term loans. At the same time, some bond underwriters began offering churches more money up front if they issued so-called compound-interest bonds. In such cases, churches often paid nothing until the bonds came due years later, but then had to pay both the principal and accrued interest, which often doubled the amount they owed.

Many such bonds come due in the next few years. But with property values down and cash in short supply, many churches won't have the funds to payand will have trouble refinancing. "In 2011 and the next couple of years, we're going to see a big maturity wall hitting these churches," said Scott Rolfs, head of Wisconsin-based investment bank Ziegler and Co.'s Religion and Education practice.

Many churches have also been upended by plain mortgages. Vineyard Christian Fellowship in Sacramento took out a $1.9 million mortgage to acquire a $2.3 million 18,000-square-foot property in 2004 that included a church and two retail spaces. Johnny Zapara, the pastor, had refinanced his own home for $400,000 to make a down payment and expected to pay most of the $17,000 monthly payment with income from retail tenants.

When one of the tenants went out of business and a new one couldn't be found, Vineyard subsidized the payments for two years. Eventually the church ran out of money. and couldn't refinance because the value of the property had fallen sharply.The lender foreclosed earlier this month.

"A building does not make a church. We will find a way to continue," Mr. Zapara said.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704115404576096151214141820.html?m od=WSJ_hp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsSecond

[Spectrism]

I got a chuckle out of this line-


Bankers and lenders typically are reluctant to "foreclose on God" and seek to work out deals with churches. But none proved possible in the Olivers' case.


That is like saying snakes are reluctant to eat baby birds.


I think they are more concerned with the propoerties switching over to a taxable status and then they owe property taxes on those enormous hulks.

[Son-of-Liberty]

Apparently those running the churches don't take the word of god to seriously. The bible specifically tells us to not lend or borrow with interest (usury) and they have mortgages.

Idiots.

[BillBoard]

A Church should never have a mortgage. The congregation should only build what they can afford.

Keep in mind they do not pay land taxes.

[chad]

last time i was in houston i was driving around in my old stomping grounds, near the old rockets stadium. now, it's joel osteen's gazillion dollar church. 2 blocks away people are laying in the street. nice.

[sirgonzo420]

last time i was in houston i was driving around in my old stomping grounds, near the old rockets stadium. now, it's joel osteen's gazillion dollar church. 2 blocks away people are laying in the street. nice.


LOL.... I love how wishy-washy Osteen is...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPeYUXuuRUM

[chad]

i struggle with the church bullshit even within my own parish. i'm pretty sure jesus would vote for "feed + clothe the poor," not spend $200,000 on imported marble from italy to build a new baptismal fountain and seating area. :oo-->

[PatColo]

Apparently those running the churches don't take the word of god to seriously. The bible specifically tells us to not lend or borrow with interest (usury) and they have mortgages.

Idiots.


Not a Bible scholar, but I thought Islam was the only major religion (or maybe of the 3 Abrahamics?) to still explicitly prohibit usury. see: Muslim investors profit by adhering to faith (http://gold-silver.us/forum/religion-and-philosophy/muslim-investors-profit-by-adhering-to-faith/). Correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Christianity once prohibit usury, but as they became co-opted by the zio's, that prohibition quietly went by the wayside? Similar to how that Vatican apologized to dajoos a few decades ago for historically maintaining that the Pharaohs orchestrated the murder of Christ?

Also wonder how 501-C-3 status (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501%28c%29#501.28c.29.283.29) works into the mix, if only informally. I recall Pastor L. Williams explaining how this status was sort of a deal with the devil, church is tax-exempt in exchange for not being "political", and how this de-fanged churches' old-time role as centers for community watchdogging of gummit... to their own demise in the end, as the bankster/guv/NWO takes on that "leadership role" instead, and seek to abolish religions which preach ideals at odds with NWO's satanic agenda. It seems the banksters would have some vested interest in allowing "cooperative churches" to function as non-political spiritual outlets for the population, and would thus turn a blind eye to missed mortgage payments. Or maybe not, as shutting down the churches through foreclosure would also be in line with the NWO agenda- but thing is, that removes a community's "spiritual controlled opposition outlet", and risks the former parishioners adapting to the loss of their church by networking privately, with political grievances very much on the agenda. :conf:

[messianicdruid]

Churches Find End Is Nigh

"Religious organizations may be subject to the laws of God but they are also subject to the laws of economics," said Chris Macke, senior real-estate strategist at CoStar.


They have taught and believe that God's Laws were nailed to the cross. Wrong. God is not mocked. We have sown to the wind and we will reap a whirlwind.

[bellevuebully]

last time i was in houston i was driving around in my old stomping grounds, near the old rockets stadium. now, it's joel osteen's gazillion dollar church. 2 blocks away people are laying in the street. nice.


LOL.... I love how wishy-washy Osteen is...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPeYUXuuRUM


I had posted a link on another thread on a sermon given by the late Vernon Mcgee on Faith Plus Nothing Equals Salvation. I got listening to some other material and had just viewed this peice called The Apostacy Has Arrived......and then quite ironically picked up this thread. Joel Olsteen is one of many preaching a false message. Those like him seem to be forming the majority. Here is a link to the above noted peice on apostacy in the church, for those interested. Imo, the late
J Vernon McGee is one of the great true stewards of the gospel message in our day. A stark contrast from the likes of Olsteen and others presiding over the multitude of 'Crystal Catherdrals' we see today.

http://beemp3.com/download.php?file=8508289&song=The+Apostasy+Has+Arrived

[bellevuebully]

i struggle with the church Bullshit even within my own parish. i'm pretty sure jesus would vote for "feed + clothe the poor," not spend $200,000 on imported marble from italy to build a new baptismal fountain and seating area. :oo-->


Dude...I hear ya. I'm at constant odds with this.

Ya, there is a 10000 square foot foyer, but not one free bible available for someone new coming into the church. :-\

[sirgonzo420]

i struggle with the church Bullshit even within my own parish. i'm pretty sure jesus would vote for "feed + clothe the poor," not spend $200,000 on imported marble from italy to build a new baptismal fountain and seating area. :oo-->


Dude...I hear ya. I'm at constant odds with this.

Ya, there is a 10000 square foot foyer, but not one free bible available for someone new coming into the church. :-\




Maybe that's for the best.

I'm not even a christian, but I'll say the new translations of the bible are garbage.


I'm not sure they'd hand out KJVs.... lol

[messianicdruid]

I'm not even a christian, but I'll say the new translations of the bible are garbage. I'm not sure they'd hand out KJVs.... lol

The King James Version of the scriptures is a government issue bible. James rounded up a bunch of scholars to translate a new bible because the Geneva Bible, which had many comments of the reformers laying bare the things being done by government that were not authorized by God {in the scriptures}, for the leaders of His people to be doing.

If usury is a sin, then paying usury must be assisting another to sin, if it is not a sin by itself. This may be because it is better to sell yourself into slavery {debt} than to starve to death, or allow your loved ones to starve to death.

Mortgaging a building for the saints to meet in, is still making the saints slaves to mammon.

[sirgonzo420]

I'm not even a christian, but I'll say the new translations of the bible are garbage. I'm not sure they'd hand out KJVs.... lol

The King James Version of the scriptures is a government issue bible. James rounded up a bunch of scholars to translate a new bible because the Geneva Bible, which had many comments of the reformers laying bare the things being done by government that were not authorized by God {in the scriptures}, for the leaders of His people to be doing.

If usury is a sin, then paying usury must be assisting another to sin, if it is not a sin by itself. This may be because it is better to sell yourself into slavery {debt} than to starve to death, or allow your loved ones to starve to death.

Mortgaging a building for the saints to meet in, is still making the saints slaves to mammon.



Oh I agree! The Geneva Bible, is, in my opinion, the best english version of the bible.

But KJV seems to be "coin of the realm", and as unlikely as it seems for a mega-church to hand out KJVs, it would be even more unbelievable for them to hand out Genevas (which is why I didn't mention that version).

I bought a facsimile Geneva a few weeks ago and I love it. It's just awesome. The last time I had been so excited when I bought a bible-related item was when I purchased a copy of Strong's Concordance.

[lapis]

Not a Bible scholar, but I thought Islam was the only major religion (or maybe of the 3 Abrahamics?) to still explicitly prohibit usury. see: Muslim investors profit by adhering to faith (http://gold-silver.us/forum/religion-and-philosophy/muslim-investors-profit-by-adhering-to-faith/). Correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Christianity once prohibit usury, but as they became co-opted by the zio's, that prohibition quietly went by the wayside? Similar to how that Vatican apologized to dajoos a few decades ago for historically maintaining that the Pharaohs orchestrated the murder of Christ?

There's a Christian blog about this, and it even has a form letter for you to send to pastors and other Christians to "remind" them that usury is a sin. But I can't find the link to it.

[nunaem]

i struggle with the church Bullshit even within my own parish. i'm pretty sure jesus would vote for "feed + clothe the poor," not spend $200,000 on imported marble from italy to build a new baptismal fountain and seating area. :oo-->


Dude...I hear ya. I'm at constant odds with this.

Ya, there is a 10000 square foot foyer, but not one free bible available for someone new coming into the church. :-\



"The orthodox teaching has been, virtually, (1) that all of us are born in sin, are evil, and in and of ourselves are worms and nothings; (2) that on this Earth we cannot be like Jesus, since he was God and we are human; (3) that, moreover, we do not need to be like Jesus, since he "fixes it up" for our shortcomings, anyway. Look at the logic of it: no one can be like Jesus; no one need be like Jesus. The natural conclusion, and in any case the actual result, is that no one tries to be like Jesus. The most conspicuous thing about life in the Christian Church is the almost total absence of any wholehearted attempt to put the teaching of Jesus into practice. Everyone is content to do the very thing that Jesus himself condemned: everyone cries "Lord, Lord," but no one addresses himself to the difficult and painful, yet always possible task of actually doing what "the Lord" so obviously said."

"In the beginning they saw, but led by the Church to believe that doing is not necessary, that Jesus will "fix it up" with God, it comes about that they "see and do not"--as Jesus said of the Pharisees. (Matt. 23:3) And presently that are not able any longer even to see. They "see and do not" and are not aware that they do not do. They are false and do not know that they are false. They are stone-blind, and it never enters their heads that they are blind. All sense of reality in their moral and spiritual existence has vanished. They live in an artificial world, a world of imaginary values, which cuts them off from all actuality, so that their organic spiritual existence slowly starves to death. It doesn't work. It doesn't eat. It doesn't digest, assimilate, or excrete. Shut off from food and light and air, it languishes and dies. Dies because it never exerted itself, never kicked, or used its fists, or raised its voice, or got up and went anywhere. It allowed itself slowly to be wound about with grave-cloths, over its eyes, and ears, and mouth, and around its arms and hands, and legs and feet. And now it's a mummy. People walk around, talk and laugh, but within their breasts all the while is a mummy, a dead thing, a corpse. And presently it rots, and stinks, and infects, and poisons everyone who comes near. Until today almost our whole society is poisoned--poisoned above all with false values, which make our whole direction false, and the sickness is so prevalent that it escapes notice and is looked upon as health, while the truly healthy man, instead of being recognized as the norm and held up for admiration, is regarded with suspicion and pressed to become sick like the rest.
And it is the Church, with its paralyzing conception "Christ," that has done this thing. The Church has been the great enemy of the Life of man."

-William Gayley Simpson

[ximmy]

Not a Bible scholar, but I thought Islam was the only major religion (or maybe of the 3 Abrahamics?) to still explicitly prohibit usury. see: Muslim investors profit by adhering to faith (http://gold-silver.us/forum/religion-and-philosophy/muslim-investors-profit-by-adhering-to-faith/). Correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Christianity once prohibit usury, but as they became co-opted by the zio's, that prohibition quietly went by the wayside? Similar to how that Vatican apologized to dajoos a few decades ago for historically maintaining that the Pharaohs orchestrated the murder of Christ?

There's a Christian blog about this, and it even has a form letter for you to send to pastors and other Christians to "remind" them that usury is a sin. But I can't find the link to it.


Borrower is a slave to a lender (Proverbs)

Owe no man any thing (Romans)

[bellevuebully]

i struggle with the church Bullshit even within my own parish. i'm pretty sure jesus would vote for "feed + clothe the poor," not spend $200,000 on imported marble from italy to build a new baptismal fountain and seating area. :oo-->


Dude...I hear ya. I'm at constant odds with this.

Ya, there is a 10000 square foot foyer, but not one free bible available for someone new coming into the church. :-\



"The orthodox teaching has been, virtually, (1) that all of us are born in sin, are evil, and in and of ourselves are worms and nothings; (2) that on this Earth we cannot be like Jesus, since he was God and we are human; (3) that, moreover, we do not need to be like Jesus, since he "fixes it up" for our shortcomings, anyway. Look at the logic of it: no one can be like Jesus; no one need be like Jesus. The natural conclusion, and in any case the actual result, is that no one tries to be like Jesus. The most conspicuous thing about life in the Christian Church is the almost total absence of any wholehearted attempt to put the teaching of Jesus into practice. Everyone is content to do the very thing that Jesus himself condemned: everyone cries "Lord, Lord," but no one addresses himself to the difficult and painful, yet always possible task of actually doing what "the Lord" so obviously said."


"In the beginning they saw, but led by the Church to believe that doing is not necessary, that Jesus will "fix it up" with God, it comes about that they "see and do not"--as Jesus said of the Pharisees. (Matt. 23:3) And presently that are not able any longer even to see. They "see and do not" and are not aware that they do not do. They are false and do not know that they are false. They are stone-blind, and it never enters their heads that they are blind. All sense of reality in their moral and spiritual existence has vanished. They live in an artificial world, a world of imaginary values, which cuts them off from all actuality, so that their organic spiritual existence slowly starves to death. It doesn't work. It doesn't eat. It doesn't digest, assimilate, or excrete. Shut off from food and light and air, it languishes and dies. Dies because it never exerted itself, never kicked, or used its fists, or raised its voice, or got up and went anywhere. It allowed itself slowly to be wound about with grave-cloths, over its eyes, and ears, and mouth, and around its arms and hands, and legs and feet. And now it's a mummy. People walk around, talk and laugh, but within their breasts all the while is a mummy, a dead thing, a corpse. And presently it rots, and stinks, and infects, and poisons everyone who comes near. Until today almost our whole society is poisoned--poisoned above all with false values, which make our whole direction false, and the sickness is so prevalent that it escapes notice and is looked upon as health, while the truly healthy man, instead of being recognized as the norm and held up for admiration, is regarded with suspicion and pressed to become sick like the rest.
And it is the Church, with its paralyzing conception "Christ," that has done this thing. The Church has been the great enemy of the Life of man."

-William Gayley Simpson


That is less than a knee-deep exository of Christiian belief. Have you ever studied what the bible says, or does is your history of investigation dominated by cut and pasting excerps that lend themselves to your preconceptions. Not meaning to be condescending....I have been on both sides, so this is an honest question.

Also with regards to the above highlighted, as well as my above noted corrospondance.......how many Christians do you know personally and intimately, to the point that you could support what you have quoted above? Nobody is claiming Christians are perfect, but you seem to, by your support measures, paint with an awfully large brush.

An honest look at this statement qualifies it as nothing more than pure rhetoric, not much dimension beyond what you would expect from a grade schooler. Would you like to look into the discomforts of the men that have given up everything for the sake of the gospels message? You could start with the martyrs that lived under Domitian and Caligula. I highly doubt Luther was comfortable nailing a statement heretical charges against the Catholic church in his day.Don't get me wrong though. If you are satisfied with the depth of your understanding on these issues, that is not my business. I only respond to clarify the lack of depth to this particular response.

[JohnQPublic]

i struggle with the church Bullshit even within my own parish. i'm pretty sure jesus would vote for "feed + clothe the poor," not spend $200,000 on imported marble from italy to build a new baptismal fountain and seating area. :oo-->


I actually agree with you in principle, but the flip side is a spectacular Church is a symbol of what is important in our societies, and what can be more important than God?

Remember:

Gospel According to Saint John (Ch 12)

[1] Jesus therefore, six days before the pasch, came to Bethania, where Lazarus had been dead, whom Jesus raised to life. [2] And they made him a supper there: and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that were at table with him. [3] Mary therefore took a pound of ointment of right spikenard, of great price, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair; and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. [4] Then one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, he that was about to betray him, said: [5] Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?

[6] Now he said this, not because he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and having the purse, carried the things that were put therein. [7] Jesus therefore said: Let her alone, that she may keep it against the day of my burial. [8] For the poor you have always with you; but me you have not always.

[nunaem]

That is less than a knee-deep exository of Christiian belief. Have you ever studied what the bible says, or does is your history of investigation dominated by cut and pasting excerps that lend themselves to your preconceptions. Not meaning to be condescending....I have been on both sides, so this is an honest question.

Also with regards to the above highlighted, as well as my above noted corrospondance.......how many Christians do you know personally and intimately, to the point that you could support what you have quoted above? Nobody is claiming Christians are perfect, but you seem to, by your support measures, paint with an awfully large brush.


Like most atheists, I know more about the bible than the majority of nominal Christians. I also know a few nominal Christians and going to Church every sunday is the extent of their knee-deep Christianity, and the Church demands little more of them except a tithe and a confession. None of them are as splenetic as you though, so at least they are above ankle-deep Christlikeness.


An honest look at this statement qualifies it as nothing more than pure rhetoric, not much dimension beyond what you would expect from a grade schooler. Would you like to look into the discomforts of the men that have given up everything for the sake of the gospels message? You could start with the martyrs that lived under Domitian and Caligula. I highly doubt Luther was comfortable nailing a statement heretical charges against the Catholic church in his day.Don't get me wrong though. If you are satisfied with the depth of your understanding on these issues, that is not my business. I only respond to clarify the lack of depth to this particular response.

That's just it, the courageous Christians are a minority written about in history books. Where is the widespread attempt to put Jesus' teachings into practice today? And the early Christian martyrs only support WGS' statement that, "In the beginning they saw".

[bellevuebully]

Like most atheists, I know more about the bible than the majority of nominal Christians. I also know a few nominal Christians and going to Church every sunday is the extent of their knee-deep Christianity, and the Church demands little more of them except a tithe and a confession. None of them are as splenetic as you though, so at least they are above ankle-deep Christlikeness.

That's just it, the courageous Christians are a minority written about in history books. Where is the widespread attempt to put Jesus' teachings into practice today? And the early Christian martyrs only support WGS' statement that, "In the beginning they saw".


I am sorry for being splenetic (I had to look that word up :D)

I will try to be less direct, and approach things in a gentler manner.

I would say that knowing "a few nominal christians" would not make you an authority on the inner workings of the lives of Christians....you may disagree.

Statistically, there are currently around 500 000 missionaries in the world. About 170 000 Christians die for their faith in the gospel, per year. Over 80 million bibles are distributed around the world per year, funded by the Christian community. Approximately 2 billion people claim to be Christians (whether they are genuine or not remains to be seen, but the point is that they have heard the gospel message.

The above are some common stats. I would say that those paint a pretty good picture of 'putting Jesus' teachings into practice'. I suppose acknowleging the above has a lot to do with what you think the teachings of Jesus are. He said to preach the need for a saviour to the whole world, to all who would listen. Based on some of the above, I would say the body is not completely idol or impotent, as you have suggested.

I wouldn't wait around for too long expecting Christians to be perfect. That is why they have accepted Christ. They have come to the realization that they can not, and accept the gift God has offered them.

Beyond that, the fruits or lack therof that we bare, is something that we will have to come to grips with when we meet Christ. But to paint a picture with a broad brush and say that the body is completely lacking in effort to be Christlike is rhetorical and inaccurate. As is the suggestion that the broad Christian attitude is that....'I don't have to worry.....He just fixes it up'. Again, you may disagree.

However, in that light of all of this, I will definitely relent that the fundementals of the gospel being preached today are under serious attack. You can refer to my previous posts.

Again, I apologize for having come across as spletetic.

[Twisted Titan]

Where can you find this Bible ........The Geneva???


I would like to own one

I never knew anything but the KJV or Duey versions

[7th trump]

Where can you find this Bible ........The Geneva???


I would like to own one

I never knew anything but the KJV or Duey versions

I would also try and find a Farah Fenton Bible if you can.
I absolutely love the Fenton Bible.

[ShortJohnSilver]

Note, it is "Ferrar Fenton" and you can get the PDFs here:

http://thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/ferrar_fenton/pdf/

He re-arranged the order of the books, and for Psalms, he actually translated them as if they were songs. Have not read anything deeply yet, just skimmed the PDF of Psalms.

[7th trump]

Note, it is "Ferrar Fenton" and you can get the PDFs here:

http://thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/ferrar_fenton/pdf/

He re-arranged the order of the books, and for Psalms, he actually translated them as if they were songs. Have not read anything deeply yet, just skimmed the PDF of Psalms.

Yes you are correct. I was a bit hasty beofre going to do a side job.

[mick silver]

there 4 churchs i have seen in my part of the world that for sale . i guess the banks own them now . good day all

[sirgonzo420]

Where can you find this Bible ........The Geneva???


I would like to own one

I never knew anything but the KJV or Duey versions


This is the version I have, and I figure I appreciate it more than many christians would.

The notes, and the original Geneva text are just awesome.


http://www.amazon.com/Geneva-Bible-1560-Facsimile/lm/R32HMA97IBF8HO

here's what an excerpt (concerning Lucifer's fall) looks like:

http://www.kjv-only.com/pics/genevalucifer.gif