Why did God create (and still perpetuate) evil?

[sirgonzo420]

This is mostly for the Christians of the board... in an attempt to not derail another thread I started this one.

I am not trying to stir up shit, I just want your opinions.

I was raised in a Christian church, but never could reconcile certain ideas...

So, what say you, GSUS?




(and if me asking this question bothers you or messes with your faith, I'll tell you the same thing I used to tell kids in middle and high school when we would have discussions like this and they would start to get upset: "I'm just messin' with ya... I was sent by God to test your faith!" ;D )

[Ares]

The purpose of life is to know thy self. Is it not? How can you not know who and what you are without the choices of being good, or being evil? (service to others, service to self respectively)

Even then you're feeding into the duality that Zoroastrianism created way back in the days while the Talmud was still being written. The duality of good and evil can be traced back to Zoroaster.

[DMac]

(deleted)

[Ares]

The purpose of life is to know thy self. Is it not? How can you not know who and what you are without the choices of being good, or being evil? (service to others, service to self respectively)

Even then you're feeding into the duality that Zoroastrianism created way back in the days while the Talmud was still being written. The duality of good and evil can be traced back to Zoroaster.




You have to go further back than that.

Modern Dualism owes itself to Descartes.

Ancient Dualism owes itself to Plato.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/dualism/


Thanks DMac, in my religious / spiritual readings they always pointed to Zoroaster as being the father of duality within religion. As always, there's always more to read.

[DMac]

The purpose of life is to know thy self. Is it not? How can you not know who and what you are without the choices of being good, or being evil? (service to others, service to self respectively)

Even then you're feeding into the duality that Zoroastrianism created way back in the days while the Talmud was still being written. The duality of good and evil can be traced back to Zoroaster.




You have to go further back than that.

Modern Dualism owes itself to Descartes.

Ancient Dualism owes itself to Plato.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/dualism/


Thanks DMac, in my religious / spiritual readings they always pointed to Zoroaster as being the father of duality within religion. As always, there's always more to read.


Sorry Ares, I deleted my post, I want to come back to this later when have more time to write something a bit more accurate.

[nunaem]

I imagine I would be bored to death by pure 'good' people(in the Christian sense, selfless, humble, agreeable, unoriginal), thankfully such people don't exist. I think 'god' gave us a combination of both to keep life interesting.

[7th trump]

This is mostly for the Christians of the board... in an attempt to not derail another thread I started this one.

I am not trying to stir up shit, I just want your opinions.

I was raised in a Christian church, but never could reconcile certain ideas...

So, what say you, GSUS?




(and if me asking this question bothers you or messes with your faith, I'll tell you the same thing I used to tell kids in middle and high school when we would have discussions like this and they would start to get upset: "I'm just messin' with ya... I was sent by God to test your faith!" ;D )

Well the problem rests with the mainstream churches of today..........they dont teach any usefull thing except how to praise God and Christ.
They completely bypass the important things like why lucifer decided to revolt; when the revolt took place; where God sentenced lucifer to death (perdition);or the three earth ages.
There are three earth ages.
The first earth age is where we were all in the spiritual body and when lucifer revolted.
The second earth age is right now (test time). We are all born innocent from the bag of waters in this earth age were in the first earth age we were created. Its this current age we decided to either follow lucifer, satan, the dragon, the beast, the son of perdition, polyon, the devil (some of many names for the same fallen revolting angel).
The third age is going to start the very second Christ steps on this earth (the 7th trump) on His return. Those currently in the flesh all return to the spiritual body and those already gone will come back in the same spiritual body.

Evil is thrown into the firey pit along with satan and those who dont overcome.
After the Great White Thrown Judgement no flesh will be on earth. The lion will graze and sleep with the sheep!

[Ponce]

What is going on with all this God, God, God?.........you guys getting scared or what?

[7th trump]

What is going on with all this God, God, God?.........you guys getting scared or what?
Nope not sceeered at all!
Just watching it all go down as God wrote Revelation.

You probably will the minute you see the sperious messiah (fake christ) standing in Jerusalem claiming to be Christ. The world is going to whore after that one.
Its not until the real Christ steps foot on this earth where those whoring after the fake realize they have been worshipping and giving allegience to the devil and will wish mountains to cover them from their shame.
Its gonna be a sad day for those!

[ximmy]

(Isaiah 45:7) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

With freedom comes responsibility of choice...
wrong choices result in evil.
Evil is a result of freedom to chose...

(Isaiah 57:16-18) [God speaking about humans]
For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.

[G2Rad]

Why did God create (and still perpetuate) evil?

Note that God did not originate evil.

[G2Rad]

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

just judgments of God can be called "evil", just like executing a child-molester inflicts "evil" upon him

[G2Rad]

Making lesser than perfect beings envolved taking huge responsibility.

Lesser that perfect beings are bound to make lesser than perfect decisions (sins).

Penalty for sin is death.

God provided two very good solutions for evil.

1) Death of the Creator. Jesus Christ. (for God's creatures)
2) Lake of fire (for alien creatures)

Both solutions are very good.

[MAGNES]

Thanks DMac, in my religious / spiritual readings they always pointed to Zoroaster as being the father of duality within religion. As always, there's always more to read.


Ares can you tell us the history here, what led you in this direction ?

[7th trump]

Making lesser than perfect beings envolved taking huge responsibility.

Lesser that perfect beings are bound to produce lesser than perfect decisions (sins).

Penalty for sin is death.

God provided two very good solutions for evil.

1) Death of the Creator. Jesus Christ. (for God's creatures)
2) Lake of fire (for alien creatures)

Those solutions are very good.



Death never touched Christ..............He over came death.
Once Christ gave up the ghost He went over to the prison (a split down the middle of Heaven. the over comers on the one side while the not so overcomers on the other side. See Luke.) and pulled a lot people from Noah's time who didnt have the opportunity of the savior.
And "death" as used in context is referencing lucifer.

The lake of fire is for satan and the other fallen angels and those who dont over come.

I really dont know how you can miscontrue the Bible.

[Ares]

Thanks DMac, in my religious / spiritual readings they always pointed to Zoroaster as being the father of duality within religion. As always, there's always more to read.


Ares can you tell us the history here, what led you in this direction ?


Magnes,

I do a LOT of reading on just about everything. I think I might use this moment to chime in and say that after doing some more reading on Zoroastar he is estimated by some to of lived 14000 years ago. Which is FAR older than Plato or Socrates. So I still stand by the comment in my first response as him being the father of duality in religion. Most of the worlds major religions all share some common belief with Zoroastrianism. Mostly concerning the duality of good and evil.

Only suggestion I can offer is read read read read, and read some more. A lot of what I read was also stories of people who have had Near Death experiences. I always found those to be the most interesting of stories. It doesn't matter what religion they practice, they all come back with similar stories. That's what I find so interesting.

[RJB]

Why did God create (and still perpetuate) evil?
So that I can take over the world MWuuhahahahahah

http://4iphonewallpapers.com/iphone-4-wallpapers/original/2010_10/pinky-and-the-brain.jpg

[oldmansmith]

Why did God create (and still perpetuate) evil?

Note that God did not originate evil.




This is the most obviously Bullshit thing that Christians say.

God created EVERYTHING.

And your "free will" only encompasses what God gave you and created outside of you; therefore it is not free by definition.

God created evil, or else (s)he(it) is not omnipotent. Seems clear to me. What am I missing?

[Spectrism]

So much error harbored by so many here. I have found that people love their lies and delusions. Such is the way of sleepers who dream their own dreams. I shall not stir thee from thine sweet slumber. When the prod of iron pierces your flesh and awakening so rudely to the realities of life you must, blame not those whose slander you levelled and their knowledge you reviled. For consequences visit all those who may choose.

[sirgonzo420]

Why did God create (and still perpetuate) evil?

Note that God did not originate evil.




This is the most obviously Bullshit thing that Christians say.

God created EVERYTHING.

And your "free will" only encompasses what God gave you and created outside of you; therefore it is not free by definition.

God created evil, or else (s)he(it) is not omnipotent. Seems clear to me. What am I missing?




You're missing "faith".

[sirgonzo420]

So much error harbored by so many here. I have found that people love their lies and delusions. Such is the way of sleepers who dream their own dreams. I shall not stir thee from thine sweet slumber. When the prod of iron pierces your flesh and awakening so rudely to the realities of life you must, blame not those whose slander you levelled and their knowledge you reviled. For consequences visit all those who may choose.


LOL

right back atcha.

[Gaillo]

So much error harbored by so many here. I have found that people love their lies and delusions. Such is the way of sleepers who dream their own dreams. I shall not stir thee from thine sweet slumber. When the prod of iron pierces your flesh and awakening so rudely to the realities of life you must, blame not those whose slander you levelled and their knowledge you reviled. For consequences visit all those who may choose.


Amazing! That's EXACTLY how I view "believers" and their "God(s)"! What an amazing thing the human mind is... capable of arguing almost any position using the same concepts and language! ;D

[Spectrism]

So much error harbored by so many here. I have found that people love their lies and delusions. Such is the way of sleepers who dream their own dreams. I shall not stir thee from thine sweet slumber. When the prod of iron pierces your flesh and awakening so rudely to the realities of life you must, blame not those whose slander you levelled and their knowledge you reviled. For consequences visit all those who may choose.


Amazing! That's EXACTLY how I view "believers" and their "God(s)"! What an amazing thing the human mind is... capable of arguing almost any position using the same concepts and language! ;D


And we all may soon come to see who is sleeping naked.

One minor technicality that I would differ with is that I do not paint with such a broad brush as you may hastily assume. To stereotype all "believers" in a category which you cannot understand for lack of experience is a risky argument to hold. Within that group viewed by outsiders are just a small remnant of those alive in light. As it was written, many are among the called but few are the chosen.

A bird can say (if saying it could) that to fly in a cold sky is better than resting in a warm nest as an egg. Can an egg say that it chooses better than the bird?

[G2Rad]

This is the most obviously Bullshit thing that Christians say.

God created EVERYTHING.

And your "free will" only encompasses what God gave you and created outside of you; therefore it is not free by definition.

God created evil, or else (s)he(it) is not omnipotent. Seems clear to me. What am I missing?




Imho u r missing a careful study of the Bible ON Your own

[sirgonzo420]

This is the most obviously Bullshit thing that Christians say.

God created EVERYTHING.

And your "free will" only encompasses what God gave you and created outside of you; therefore it is not free by definition.

God created evil, or else (s)he(it) is not omnipotent. Seems clear to me. What am I missing?




Imho u r missing a careful study of the Bible ON Your own


Not to answer for him but as for myself, I don't think that's the case...

I read the KJV Bible all the way through before I was old enough to get a driver's license.

Since then, I have not read it cover to cover, but I have studied the KJV and the Geneva in english, as well as the tanakh in hebrew, and the new testament in greek. I'm not exactly fluent in greek or hebrew, but I've been sort of learning since I was a small child (I studied to see why the adults believed what they believed... they would get uncomfortable when I'd ask certain questions, so I decided to study for myself... that study has continued as a hobby into my adulthood).


There is not a way to reconcile TRUE FREE WILL of man with OMNISCIENCE of God without fudging either the notion of free will, or the notion of omniscience.

We are either acting according to God's over-all Plan or not. If we are, then we have no TRUE free will, although we has a persistant illusion of such; we are merely occupying an office sculpted by God. If we are not acting according to God's over-all Plan, then God is NOT omniscient or omnipotent.

[Herbicidal]

This is mostly for the Christians of the board... in an attempt to not derail another thread I started this one.

I am not trying to stir up shit, I just want your opinions.

I was raised in a Christian church, but never could reconcile certain ideas...

So, what say you, GSUS?


I am a christian, but my beliefs differ dramatically than most. I don't believe in hell, hell doesn't exist, it's not in the bible. I will elaborate on that in a bit.

God created all things therefore he must have created evil. God is omniscient, he has a plan, it's bigger than any of us and spans much longer time frames. Since god is omniscient he must have known what he was doing when he created Lucifer. You could argue that he created Satan intentionally not by accident. He knew what he was doing. Satan's fall was not a surprise, neither was Adam's.

I believe we are put on this earth for a purpose, to learn the difference between good and evil, to learn right from wrong. I don't get excessively concerned with the term "SIN" as most Christians do. That doesn't mean that I go around sinning constantly. I am always amazed at the amount of fear and oppression that goes on in churches. It's like do this or the boogeyman (GOD) will get you.

I believe in eternal life, I believe that the suffering in this life will be nothing in comparison to the future. I also believe in universal salvation. I believe that Jesus died for all mankind. (PERIOD) Everyone is saved, but few know it or will accept it... however they are still saved. Just like the parable of the lost sheep. God left the 99 to find the one that was lost. No one will be lost, but they will all face judgement in front of an all powerful creator and will know the wrongs they have done, and they will literally burn. Not so much as by fire but by the sword of truth. The "lake of fire" is not really fire, but an all powerful cleansing scrub brush.

Church is pathetic, no one has any balls, hardly anyone speaks up, no one really calls anyone or helps another out. Of course the definition of church in the new testament is not a large building where people meet only on sundays, where we go by a script and everybody goes home having accomplished next to nothing. No talk about anything important (Government, Money system) etc. Church is supposed to be a body of believers and the term is ecclesia, nothing about a building, religious rituals etc. Where two or more are gathered that is church. One could argue that this forum at times could be "church"

Now the subject of hell is one that I have wrestled with and buried. The term hell does not exist in any bible. The english word hell is a mis-translation and has nothing to do with the word(s) in the bible. Newer translations barely use the word hell once, and that is not a mistake, newer translations have corrected errors in translation from the KJV. The truth is that about six words have been mis-translated intentionally and or unintentionally from earlier usually catholic manuscripts. Those words are aion, sheol, tartarus, gehenna etc. The english word hell has a completely different meaning from the that actually used in the bible. The english word hell has origins from places like dante's inferno and other fearful works of fiction. Remember Church's primary method of controlling their flock is through fear and intimidation. Tithe or god will get you, or you will miss out on blessings, sin and god will get you.

The Christian church has lost the fact that "god is love" and "perfect love casts out fear". People say well if there is no hell then why don't I go out and do wine, women, party and sin. Sure you can do that, but just know that this entire world is governed by natural laws. If you drink too much you will probably have a pretty short existence, if you do too many drugs...., if you speed constantly...., etc etc.

Even the definition of sin is never discussed in church. The term to sin means literally "to miss the mark" or put another way as "to come short of god's expectations for you". The Church controls the same way government's do... through fear they are 180 degrees from the way it should be.

Just like our government, everything is fraud, everything is "illegal", black is white, white is black, the underground economy is the real economy, the real economy should be called the underground economy. The underground economy, the real economy was here first.

Truth is suppressed in all aspects of life, all truth is buried, usually under multiple layers and you have to cut through piles of bullshit to find it.

Oh and I don't believe in heaven and harps and flying around with angels. The bible quite clearly states that heaven comes to this world.

If you want to know more about some of what I just mentioned check out, particulary hell, heaven, salvation.

www.tentmaker.org (http://www.tentmaker.org)

[Sparky]

I think this is an easy one. Since we can't seem to agree if God *created* evil, I think Gonzo's question is really "Why does evil exist?"

Evil exists so that there is something we need to be saved from. God's grand plan is rooted in His glorification. Most people don't like that. So they reject it. When it comes to religion and faith, people tend to reject things they don't like, or that don't seem fair.

I don't like gravity because it makes me drop things. So I'm going to reject it as untrue.

[Spectrism]

This is mostly for the Christians of the board... in an attempt to not derail another thread I started this one.

I am not trying to stir up shit, I just want your opinions.

I was raised in a Christian church, but never could reconcile certain ideas...

So, what say you, GSUS?


I am a christian, but my beliefs differ dramatically than most. I don't believe in hell, hell doesn't exist, it's not in the bible. I will elaborate on that in a bit.

God created all things therefore he must have created evil. God is omniscient, he has a plan, it's bigger than any of us and spans much longer time frames. Since god is omniscient he must have known what he was doing when he created Lucifer. You could argue that he created Satan intentionally not by accident. He knew what he was doing. Satan's fall was not a surprise, neither was Adam's.

I believe we are put on this earth for a purpose, to learn the difference between good and evil, to learn right from wrong. I don't get excessively concerned with the term "SIN" as most Christians do. That doesn't mean that I go around sinning constantly. I am always amazed at the amount of fear and oppression that goes on in churches. It's like do this or the boogeyman (GOD) will get you.

I believe in eternal life, I believe that the suffering in this life will be nothing in comparison to the future. I also believe in universal salvation. I believe that Jesus died for all mankind. (PERIOD) Everyone is saved, but few know it or will accept it... however they are still saved. Just like the parable of the lost sheep. God left the 99 to find the one that was lost. No one will be lost, but they will all face judgement in front of an all powerful creator and will know the wrongs they have done, and they will literally burn. Not so much as by fire but by the sword of truth. The "lake of fire" is not really fire, but an all powerful cleansing scrub brush.

Church is pathetic, no one has any balls, hardly anyone speaks up, no one really calls anyone or helps another out. Of course the definition of church in the new testament is not a large building where people meet only on sundays, where we go by a script and everybody goes home having accomplished next to nothing. No talk about anything important (Government, Money system) etc. Church is supposed to be a body of believers and the term is ecclesia, nothing about a building, religious rituals etc. Where two or more are gathered that is church. One could argue that this forum at times could be "church"

Now the subject of hell is one that I have wrestled with and buried. The term hell does not exist in any bible. The english word hell is a mis-translation and has nothing to do with the word(s) in the bible. Newer translations barely use the word hell once, and that is not a mistake, newer translations have corrected errors in translation from the KJV. The truth is that about six words have been mis-translated intentionally and or unintentionally from earlier usually catholic manuscripts. Those words are aion, sheol, tartarus, gehenna etc. The english word hell has a completely different meaning from the that actually used in the bible. The english word hell has origins from places like dante's inferno and other fearful works of fiction. Remember Church's primary method of controlling their flock is through fear and intimidation. Tithe or god will get you, or you will miss out on blessings, sin and god will get you.

The Christian church has lost the fact that "god is love" and "perfect love casts out fear". People say well if there is no hell then why don't I go out and do wine, women, party and sin. Sure you can do that, but just know that this entire world is governed by natural laws. If you drink too much you will probably have a pretty short existence, if you do too many drugs...., if you speed constantly...., etc etc.

Even the definition of sin is never discussed in church. The term to sin means literally "to miss the mark" or put another way as "to come short of god's expectations for you". The Church controls the same way government's do... through fear they are 180 degrees from the way it should be.

Just like our government, everything is fraud, everything is "illegal", black is white, white is black, the underground economy is the real economy, the real economy should be called the underground economy. The underground economy, the real economy was here first.

Truth is suppressed in all aspects of life, all truth is buried, usually under multiple layers and you have to cut through piles of Bullshit to find it.

Oh and I don't believe in heaven and harps and flying around with angels. The bible quite clearly states that heaven comes to this world.

If you want to know more about some of what I just mentioned check out, particulary hell, heaven, salvation.

www.tentmaker.org (http://www.tentmaker.org)


I have news for you. You are not a christian. You clearly have not read the bible nor understood it. All will NOT be saved. The Messiah saves all those WHO BELIEVE IN HIM and who have surrendered to Him. God did not create everything. Man was made as a being that could procreate and make independent decisions. Those decisions are not God's; they are man's.

The lake of fire is not a cleansing bath. It is everlasting and those put into it do not get out.

You have shown that you do not know the Truth and have not met Him.

[MAGNES]

I have news for you. You are not a christian. You clearly have not read the bible nor understood it.


Put me down too, I am not a fan of the OT. That ain't Christianity, the other
real Christians on here that agree with me, put them in that category too, lol .

These threads belong in religion section.

@ Ares, I wrote something for you twice, I am curious, you didn't answer my question,
so I asked it again with some points, then decided to remove them.

You people here could strongly benefit from doing a basic crash course on Western Philosophy.

A lot of these threads are this, these questions are not new, General of Darkness had the best one.

SirGonzo is just a trouble maker, lol .

To answer your question directly, he does not people do cause they do have free will to do evil.
That answers two threads. And it is related to GD's thread and question.

[ximmy]

This is mostly for the Christians of the board... in an attempt to not derail another thread I started this one.

I am not trying to stir up shit, I just want your opinions.

I was raised in a Christian church, but never could reconcile certain ideas...

So, what say you, GSUS?


I am a christian, but my beliefs differ dramatically than most. I don't believe in hell, hell doesn't exist, it's not in the bible. I will elaborate on that in a bit.

God created all things therefore he must have created evil. God is omniscient, he has a plan, it's bigger than any of us and spans much longer time frames. Since god is omniscient he must have known what he was doing when he created Lucifer. You could argue that he created Satan intentionally not by accident. He knew what he was doing. Satan's fall was not a surprise, neither was Adam's.

I believe we are put on this earth for a purpose, to learn the difference between good and evil, to learn right from wrong. I don't get excessively concerned with the term "SIN" as most Christians do. That doesn't mean that I go around sinning constantly. I am always amazed at the amount of fear and oppression that goes on in churches. It's like do this or the boogeyman (GOD) will get you.

I believe in eternal life, I believe that the suffering in this life will be nothing in comparison to the future. I also believe in universal salvation. I believe that Jesus died for all mankind. (PERIOD) Everyone is saved, but few know it or will accept it... however they are still saved. Just like the parable of the lost sheep. God left the 99 to find the one that was lost. No one will be lost, but they will all face judgement in front of an all powerful creator and will know the wrongs they have done, and they will literally burn. Not so much as by fire but by the sword of truth. The "lake of fire" is not really fire, but an all powerful cleansing scrub brush.

Church is pathetic, no one has any balls, hardly anyone speaks up, no one really calls anyone or helps another out. Of course the definition of church in the new testament is not a large building where people meet only on sundays, where we go by a script and everybody goes home having accomplished next to nothing. No talk about anything important (Government, Money system) etc. Church is supposed to be a body of believers and the term is ecclesia, nothing about a building, religious rituals etc. Where two or more are gathered that is church. One could argue that this forum at times could be "church"

Now the subject of hell is one that I have wrestled with and buried. The term hell does not exist in any bible. The english word hell is a mis-translation and has nothing to do with the word(s) in the bible. Newer translations barely use the word hell once, and that is not a mistake, newer translations have corrected errors in translation from the KJV. The truth is that about six words have been mis-translated intentionally and or unintentionally from earlier usually catholic manuscripts. Those words are aion, sheol, tartarus, gehenna etc. The english word hell has a completely different meaning from the that actually used in the bible. The english word hell has origins from places like dante's inferno and other fearful works of fiction. Remember Church's primary method of controlling their flock is through fear and intimidation. Tithe or god will get you, or you will miss out on blessings, sin and god will get you.

The Christian church has lost the fact that "god is love" and "perfect love casts out fear". People say well if there is no hell then why don't I go out and do wine, women, party and sin. Sure you can do that, but just know that this entire world is governed by natural laws. If you drink too much you will probably have a pretty short existence, if you do too many drugs...., if you speed constantly...., etc etc.

Even the definition of sin is never discussed in church. The term to sin means literally "to miss the mark" or put another way as "to come short of god's expectations for you". The Church controls the same way government's do... through fear they are 180 degrees from the way it should be.

Just like our government, everything is fraud, everything is "illegal", black is white, white is black, the underground economy is the real economy, the real economy should be called the underground economy. The underground economy, the real economy was here first.

Truth is suppressed in all aspects of life, all truth is buried, usually under multiple layers and you have to cut through piles of Bullshit to find it.

Oh and I don't believe in heaven and harps and flying around with angels. The bible quite clearly states that heaven comes to this world.

If you want to know more about some of what I just mentioned check out, particulary hell, heaven, salvation.



Herbicidal, I don't think I disagree with anything you said here... If a person studies the bible and does a few word searches, they would come to the conclusions you have... IMO
ximy

[oldmansmith]

God did not create everything. Man was made as a being that could procreate and make independent decisions. Those decisions are not God's; they are man's.



Here is where you guys fall down Spec, and you know I like you fine. I HAVE read the bible, cover to cover, and although I don't claim to understand every intricacy I have in fact read it all.

God created man. God created the universe. So where do "independant decisions" come into play? I, created by God, have the "free will" to make "independant decisions" based upon what I percieve in world created by...who else...God. My decisions are based upon my genetic makeup (created by God), my "free will" (created by God, or the "devil" who was ALSO created by God), and the environment (again, also created by God). So where do I have any choice, really?

Sorry, I feel for you but I just can't reach you. God created evil, or else he/she/it is not omnipotent.

[G2Rad]

God created man. God created the universe.
So where do "independant decisions" come into play? I, created by God, .....


you were not created by God.

your body don't matter as far as God concerned

God is a Spirit. man is mostly software (soul),

You are running Satandows XP or Vista, which was developed by a different software house.

you, your "software" was not developed by God.

[RJB]

God did not carve my longbow. I did.

God did not knap the arrowhead. I did.

God did not fletch and straighten the arrow. I did.

He gave me all I needed to create it.

With the weapon I created from from his world, I can hunt a deer to feed my family or I can commit evil with it.

The arrow and the bow are niether good nor evil. It's all about freewill, baby.

[messianicdruid]

Neither "sin" nor "evil" are necessarily moral terms. Both are used in a moral sense many times, but they are not always to be applied morally. In the case of "sin," we have already seen how it may refer to missing a target with stones. In the case of "evil," it is the same.

Probably the simplest definition of evil is this: evil is anything bad or adverse that happens from MY earthly point of view. It includes all calamities that may occur, such as earthquakes, whirlwinds, famines, and pestilence. It also includes all judgment for moral sins. We are told in the Bible that God brings evils upon an individual, a city, a nation, or even the whole world in accordance to the Law. Often these "evils" take the form of wars, earthquakes, or famines. We normally think of these things as God's righteous judgments against the ungodly.

When these things happen to Christians who do not believe they have done anything wrong, they have a habit of blaming the devil for attacking the righteous. Other Christians, though, who suffer from inner guilt and fear, often assume that God is angry with them when such troubles occur. These are rather simplistic views that are more often incorrect than correct. While it is true that all evil is judgment for sin, we must understand that most evil that befalls men is either a result of Adam's sin in general or the result of the corporate sin of the nation. Individuals are affected by such judgments, because they are held liable for the sins of those in authority over them.

When a "natural" disaster occurs, many people are left asking why this happened. We often hear comments like, "Why is God so angry with us?" The victims of such "evil" befalling a city or nation should realize that God's judgments are not usually directed at them for their sin, but for the corporate sin of the nation or its leadership. The people pay the price for the sins of their leadership.

Evil itself is not sin, for Amos 3:6 says, "shall there be evil in a city; and the LORD hath not done it?" Evil is not sin, for God does evil, but does not sin. Likewise, as parents, we may bring "evil" upon our children (from their point of view) when we discipline them. Children seldom agree with their parents in matters of discipline. Evil becomes sin only when it is done apart from the perfect will of God.

The governments of men have often proclaimed or acted upon the assumption that the end justifies the means, that they may do evil toward an individual for the greater good of the community. Invariably, the greater good that they claim to establish never comes, and the people are mistreated and destroyed. Only God Himself has the capability of bringing good out of evil (Rom. 8:28). When men attempt to do this, they merely destroy people, and no good comes out of it. In fact, generally speaking, all the evil which they claim to be doing for the public good is really to consolidate their own power or to increase their own wealth.

[Herbicidal]

I have news for you. You are not a christian. You clearly have not read the bible nor understood it. All will NOT be saved. The Messiah saves all those WHO BELIEVE IN HIM and who have surrendered to Him. God did not create everything. Man was made as a being that could procreate and make independent decisions. Those decisions are not God's; they are man's.

The lake of fire is not a cleansing bath. It is everlasting and those put into it do not get out.

You have shown that you do not know the Truth and have not met Him.
[/quote]

I try not to judge others, are you truly certain. I have no desire to engage in long debates on this topic, I'm just stating my view. It's interesting that you apparently have "the truth" and ascertain who is and is not a Christian, I think one day we all will be surprised at just who god favours.


For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

You are correct that Jesus saves only those that believe in him, I do not dispute that. My assertion is that one day all people of the world will know him, all will believe in him, for all will see him. The problem with "christians", is that they impose limits on what God can and may do, your view of God is limited, you have put him in a box. Surely the creator of the universe does not have limits. Surely anything he sets his purpose to he can achieve. Surely no human being can thwart the will of god, who desires that "none should perish". You no doubt believe that all who perish are lost forever and sent off to oblivion (hell), what if God has a much grander vision than that.

I believe that most christians get off on believing that they are somehow better than others, that they chose God. They believe that they were responsible for their own salvation. This cannot be, for no human can be saved by acts, you cannot earn your way to where-ever. Christians actually believe they can save themselves through effort.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. Eph. 2:8-9

Note that "it is a gift", but Christians say to make themselves feel better that they accepted the gift. They must believe that god is a "indian-giver" (for lack of a better term) one who will take back the gift if it is not accepted. The truth is that Jesus died for the "sins of the whole world", not just "christians" sins.

"No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up on the last day.'' (John 6:44)

If god is responsible for the "drawing" which is actually "drag" in greek maybe God had more to do with your salvation than you did.

for through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see--such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him. - col 1:16

Seems pretty clear to me that everything was created by him.

[MAGNES]

I have news for you. You are not a christian. You clearly have not read the bible nor understood it. All will NOT be saved. The Messiah saves all those WHO BELIEVE IN HIM and who have surrendered to Him. God did not create everything. Man was made as a being that could procreate and make independent decisions. Those decisions are not God's; they are man's.

The lake of fire is not a cleansing bath. It is everlasting and those put into it do not get out.

You have shown that you do not know the Truth and have not met Him.


I try not to judge others, are you truly certain. I have no desire to engage in long debates on this topic, I'm just stating my view. It's interesting that you apparently have "the truth" and ascertain who is and is not a Christian, I think one day we all will be surprised at just who god favours.


For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


I have noticed throughout the years that people that are strong believers in the OT
have the strongest opinions and make judgements against people, I have said a lot
of the OT, believing the OT word for word is wrong for many reasons. Those that
believe in God, we were given the ability to reason, why would what man wrote be
put up like an idol to be worshiped, we don't , the OT has many many issues,
quoting from it and making judgements against people is nonsense.

Anyone that claims to be an expert on the OT , that's bogus.
Look at all the churches divided, at the people, get two experts
in a room, if you really want confusion, lol .

This is where the importance of the Historical Jesus comes into play and is
very significant.

I am just a laymen interested mostly in history.
I ain't religious. I am no fan of OT. Nor of Jews.
The NT is Christianity and Jesus was real historical figure.
I am an amateur student of classics and recently Western Philosophy.
Very important to understanding the period and Christianity.

[G2Rad]

sirgonzo420,

To read the entire Bible at the young age is quite a fit.

It takes about one full year of daily readings to get through the entire book.

The reading is enjoyable for me now, because I understand what I read. Before, reading the Bible was incredibly boring (honestly speaking).

Out of the 66 books of the Bible, I only managed to get through the book of Revelation, maybe 2/3 of Matthew and perhaps 1/3 of Genesis by the age of 35.

sirgonzo420, I am impressed.

[G2Rad]

Herbicidal, "all will be saved" is a lie.
most drowned in the flood. most will burn in Hell.
quote: "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

[G2Rad]

I have noticed throughout the years that people that are strong believers in the OT
have the strongest opinions and make judgements against people, I have said a lot
of the OT, believing the OT word for word is wrong for many reasons.
Anyone that claims to be an expert on the OT , that's bogus. Look at all the churches divided, at the people, get two experts
in a room, if you really want confusion, lol .
This is where the importance of the Historical Jesus comes into play and is very significant.

I am just a laymen interested mostly in history. I ain't religious. I am no fan of OT. Nor of Jews. The NT is Christianity and Jesus was real historical figure.
I am an amateur student of classics and recently Western Philosophy. Very important to understanding the period and Christianity.

MAGNES, Old Testament is all about Jesus. Without OT you can't prove me that God is God.

[sirgonzo420]

sirgonzo420,

To read the entire Bible at the young age is quite a fit.

It takes about one full year of daily readings to get through the entire book.

The reading is enjoyable for me now, because I understand what I read. Before, reading the Bible was incredibly boring (honestly speaking).

Out of the 66 books of the Bible, I only managed to get through the book of Revelation, maybe 2/3 of Matthew and perhaps 1/3 of Genesis by the age of 35.

sirgonzo420, I am impressed.


What can I say, I was a weird kid, and I loved to read. FWIW, I qualified for Mensa by the time I was 12 (perhaps could've qualified earlier, but that's when I took the test), so I suppose I may not have been a "regular kid", although I never felt "different"; I just liked to learn.

Regarding the Bible - I will concede that I didn't understand it all, and that many parts of it were very boring to me at the time (for example, whenever genealogies appeared... begat, begat, begat).

However, I do remember being intrigued and surprised by much of what I read. For example, when angels stayed with Lot, and the sodomites wanted "to know them", and so Lot offered up his two virgin daughters instead!

(I didn't remember that story from sunday school!)

I was even more surprised later when Lot got drunk and impregnated his daughters (of course, as it was written, it appears as if they took advantage of him, but when I read it I was incredulous that a father [who is called a "righteous man"] could do such a thing). That was another story missing from my sunday school lessons, and I wasn't even all the way through Genesis!

Perhaps someday I'll get around to reading it again, cover to cover, as I did when I was younger. I'm sure my understanding is different now, and many parts won't be nearly as boring.

[G2Rad]

What happened to Lot is just continuation of what happened to Noa, who too after getting drunk got sodomised by his son Ham. Lot's daughters are from Ham's seed (Africa). Lot's wife looked backward to the land that reminded her of Egypt. Sodom and gomorah were populated by Ham's descedants.

[ximmy]

What happened to Lot is just continuation of what happened to Noa, who too after getting drunk got sodomised by his son Ham. Lot's daughters are from Ham's seed (Africa). Lot's wife looked backward to the land that reminded her of Egypt. Sodom and gomorah were populated by Ham's descedants.



Noah committed the sin, Not Ham. Ham saw it and told on his father. The brothers tried to hide it, that's how noah found out. Noah cursed Ham for exposing something private.


20 Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded to plant a vineyard. 21 When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. 22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father naked and told his two brothers outside. 23 But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father’s naked body. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father naked.

24 When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him,he said,

“Cursed be Canaan!
The lowest of slaves
will he be to his brothers.”
------
A child could understand this.
ximy

[G2Rad]

What happened to Lot is just continuation of what happened to Noa, who too after getting drunk got sodomised by his son Ham. Lot's daughters are from Ham's seed (Africa). Lot's wife looked backward to the land that reminded her of Egypt. Sodom and gomorah were populated by Ham's descedants.



Noah committed the sin, Not Ham. Ham saw it and told on his father. The brothers tried to hide it, that's how noah found out. Noah cursed Ham for exposing something private.


20 Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded to plant a vineyard. 21 When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. 22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father naked and told his two brothers outside. 23 But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father’s naked body. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father naked.

24 When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him,he said,

“Cursed be Canaan!
The lowest of slaves
will he be to his brothers.”
------
A child could understand this.
ximy


ximy, if "a child could understand that", why can not you?

your own quote says "his youngest son had done to him"

had done to him is different from "just saw", do you agree :oo--> ?

I hope it helps.

[D sciple]

I believe we're the 1/3 of the angels who got booted out of heaven because we followed Lucifer and made war against God and the good angels. After that we got cast down to the Earth.

Instead of instantly destroying us God came up with a plan. He gave us the option of being placed in animal bodies and if we could overcome them and learn to be good (listen to God) we could go home. The only angel to refuse was Lucifer and that is why he still has his powers.

All this worry about freewill is what got us here. We thought we could run things better than God. So in a sense yea you have freewill, but if you exercise it your going to get to tossed into the lake of fire on the last day. Also even if you refuse to follow God you still have Lucifer with all his power influencing you to do his will. Then there's the animal body your in coercing you into knee jerk animalistic actions.

I got this info from "the way home or face the fire" pdf. at Jahtruth.net if anyone would like to read more. Some other topics include the location of heaven, what factors determine your placement in male or female human animal bodies, the Koran, organized religions, reincarnation, ect..

[Sparky]

I believe we're the 1/3 of the angels who got booted out of heaven because we followed Lucifer and made war against God and the good angels. After that we got cast down to the Earth.
...


If we're the angels, then where were we during the thousands of years after the booting but before we were born?

[D sciple]

I believe we're the 1/3 of the angels who got booted out of heaven because we followed Lucifer and made war against God and the good angels. After that we got cast down to the Earth.
...


If we're the angels, then where were we during the thousands of years after the booting but before we were born?


This question seems too easy. In heaven. Id say millions of years. Jesus said no one has ascended to heaven but he who first descended, even the son of man.

[D sciple]

After further thought, I see what your question is now.

There is like a holding tank in the earths atmosphere or something to that effect. It called paradise which means to be told in latin if I remember correctly.

When a human body is born a "soul" or remnant of the angel gets placed in the body. After it dies it goes back and is told what it did right and what it needs to work on. When another body becomes available it goes into it. This process has been going on for about 6000 years or so and will end on the Last Day. Judgment Day.

[StreetsOfGold]

This is mostly for the Christians of the board... in an attempt to not derail another thread I started this one.

I am not trying to stir up shit, I just want your opinions.

I was raised in a Christian church, but never could reconcile certain ideas...

So, what say you, GSUS?


I am a christian (really??) , but my beliefs differ dramatically than most. I don't believe in hell, hell doesn't exist, it's not in the bible.

www.tentmaker.org (http://www.tentmaker.org)


You are NOT a Bible Believer that's for SURE

De 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
2Sa 22:6 The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;
Job 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
Job 26:6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
Ps 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Ps 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
Ps 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
Ps 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
Ps 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.
Ps 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Pr 5:5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.
Pr 7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.
Pr 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.
Pr 15:11 Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?
Pr 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
Pr 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Pr 27:20 Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.
Isa 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Isa 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Isa 57:9 And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.
Eze 31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.
Eze 31:17 They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.
Eze 32:21 The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
Eze 32:27 And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.
Am 9:2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:
Jon 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
Hab 2:5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:
Mt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mt 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mt 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mt 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mt 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Mt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mr 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mr 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mr 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Lu 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
Lu 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Lu 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Ac 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Re 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Re 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

[SLV^GLD]

I was raised in a highly abusive yet highly religious household. I read a consecutive chapter of the bible (KJV) each day during breakfast and wrote a one page essay on that chapter for every single day of my life from age 8 to age 18. I've been cover to cover many many times.

I divorced myself from my father's teachings as soon as I was out on my own. In due time I found myself full circle but without the restraints imposed by my abusive past. My life's journey is one of discovering the effects and range of abuse that existed before myself and where I am going and how to cope. My source of inspiration is to deliver a message to those people who have also experienced betrayal and abuse from the very people in place to protect us from it.

The higher power whom I call God is a just and loving God. He reserves the role of judge from me because I am too flawed to exercise it myself. He provides me the power of choice but I am alone to exercise that. Anyone who claims that freedom of choice is an illusion is disillusioned in my view. I have absolute freedom of choice because that freedom is what consolidates the concept of God's love. You have the choice to disillusion yourself that this is so. Without complete freedom of choice there is an absence of true love which I choose to believe God fully represents.
Granted, we have no freedom of choice over the circumstances under which we are born but how we relate to those circumstances is the essence of who we are as individuals. I choose to believe that God has a plan and that plan will be fulfilled. Our choices are essentially to submit our will and our lives to this plan or to not submit. His will incorporates a relationship of love for each of us. A path walked in His will is one of admitting our powerlessness over our circumstances, owning up to and accepting our humanity, making up to ourselves, other humans and God for our transgressions and finally, keeping up with a resolve to submit to God's will and therefore fulfilling his plan.
Any effort to walk a path outside of his will for our lives will be met with failures and harm simply because we are not equipped to understand the overall plan that is in harmony with God's justice. The plan is not for us to know nor understand but simply to participate in under the faith that God cares for each and every one of us. Walking a path outside of that plan is a choice we are free to exercise but with the liability that we are competent to judge that path as being somehow more correct than God's plan for all of us. Such a choice is a plan for failure due to a condition of humanity known as frailty.
God, being a God of compassion and forgiveness, will forgive our frailty and incorporate our missteps into his plan but we will reap what we have sown, that is, we must still face the consequences of our choices.

That, in a nutshell, is the model of God I have in my life. I have developed this model through a great deal of trial and tribulation and it is what works for me.

All that is to say that evil represents an absence of God's plan. Evil is to God's plan as darkness is unto light. Darkness is powerless to overcome light. It is simply an absence. That darkness is a metaphor for the shadow created when we turn away from God. This is why the word repent is directly interpreted as "turn around". When we repent we turn around from our evil path that is absent of God's will and we choose to face the light of God and accept his divine path. Repentance is a choice and that choice represents free will. When we choose to face God's path we have placed the shadow behind us and it becomes absent to our focus. Evil does not cease to exist it simply ceases to retain our focus.

[bellevuebully]

I was raised in a highly abusive yet highly religious household. I read a consecutive chapter of the bible (KJV) each day during breakfast and wrote a one page essay on that chapter for every single day of my life from age 8 to age 18. I've been cover to cover many many times.

I divorced myself from my father's teachings as soon as I was out on my own. In due time I found myself full circle but without the restraints imposed by my abusive past. My life's journey is one of discovering the effects and range of abuse that existed before myself and where I am going and how to cope. My source of inspiration is to deliver a message to those people who have also experienced betrayal and abuse from the very people in place to protect us from it.

The higher power whom I call God is a just and loving God. He reserves the role of judge from me because I am too flawed to exercise it myself. He provides me the power of choice but I am alone to exercise that. Anyone who claims that freedom of choice is an illusion is disillusioned in my view. I have absolute freedom of choice because that freedom is what consolidates the concept of God's love. You have the choice to disillusion yourself that this is so. Without complete freedom of choice there is an absence of true love which I choose to believe God fully represents.
Granted, we have no freedom of choice over the circumstances under which we are born but how we relate to those circumstances is the essence of who we are as individuals. I choose to believe that God has a plan and that plan will be fulfilled. Our choices are essentially to submit our will and our lives to this plan or to not submit. His will incorporates a relationship of love for each of us. A path walked in His will is one of admitting our powerlessness over our circumstances, owning up to and accepting our humanity, making up to ourselves, other humans and God for our transgressions and finally, keeping up with a resolve to submit to God's will and therefore fulfilling his plan.
Any effort to walk a path outside of his will for our lives will be met with failures and harm simply because we are not equipped to understand the overall plan that is in harmony with God's justice. The plan is not for us to know nor understand but simply to participate in under the faith that God cares for each and every one of us. Walking a path outside of that plan is a choice we are free to exercise but with the liability that we are competent to judge that path as being somehow more correct than God's plan for all of us. Such a choice is a plan for failure due to a condition of humanity known as frailty.
God, being a God of compassion and forgiveness, will forgive our frailty and incorporate our missteps into his plan but we will reap what we have sown, that is, we must still face the consequences of our choices.

That, in a nutshell, is the model of God I have in my life. I have developed this model through a great deal of trial and tribulation and it is what works for me.

All that is to say that evil represents an absence of God's plan. Evil is to God's plan as darkness is unto light. Darkness is powerless to overcome light. It is simply an absence. That darkness is a metaphor for the shadow created when we turn away from God. This is why the word repent is directly interpreted as "turn around". When we repent we turn around from our evil path that is absent of God's will and we choose to face the light of God and accept his divine path. Repentance is a choice and that choice represents free will. When we choose to face God's path we have placed the shadow behind us and it becomes absent to our focus. Evil does not cease to exist it simply ceases to retain our focus.


Essentially, you are describing faith, if I am following your thoughts properly. Faith being, putting your trust in God and his will, regardless of if you always feel you understand it. The bible is pretty clear that it is faith that justifies, both in the old and new testament.

Jesus' death on the cross fulfills the judiciary element of God's Law, in the most perfect and loving way, allowing our faith to inherit it's ultimate outcome. I don't fully understand it, but I put my trust in God's revelation and declaration of it.

Good post. Thanks.

[woodman]

It is contrast that defines everything. Without evil, there could be no understanding of what is good.

[bellevuebully]

It is contrast that defines everything. Without evil, there could be no understanding of what is good.


Possibly. But how about, without understanding perfection, there would be no understanding of evil?

[beefsteak]

.....The higher power whom I call God is a just and loving God. He reserves the role of judge from me because I am too flawed to exercise it myself.

There is a lot of wisdom packed into that short sentence, SLV^GLD. The reason why God reserves the role of judge from us is because with judgeship comes the responsibility for "sentencing" and then meting out that sentence. That requires wisdom beyond our createdness, our "little lower than the angels" status who also do not possess judgeship.

Enjoyed your summation.

beefsteak

[Awoke]

People should not tailor God to meet their model, but should instead tailor themselves to meet God's model.

[Ragnarok]

Evil is not a thing created as such, it is the result/outcome of rebellion (decisions taken against the Creator), and the perpetuation thereof.

R.

[dys]

Evil is not a thing created as such, it is the result/outcome of rebellion (decisions taken against the Creator), and the perpetuation thereof.

R.


Awesome. You can't say it any better than that. Thank you.

dys

[wrs]

So much error harbored by so many here. I have found that people love their lies and delusions. Such is the way of sleepers who dream their own dreams.

No, what you mean to say is so many who disagree with you and don't believe in the same things as you. You fall into greater error by rejecting the clear thinking of others that contradicts the convoluted beliefs that pervade your thoughts. Christianity is brainwashing, it isn't thoughtful at all. The arguments made by Christians to justify their beliefs always fall back on their view of God which may or may not be right and most certainly cannot be proven right. Thus, if you cannot prove you are absolutely correct, it is wise to be open to the idea that you may be the one in error.

[Spectrism]

So much error harbored by so many here. I have found that people love their lies and delusions. Such is the way of sleepers who dream their own dreams.

No, what you mean to say is so many who disagree with you and don't believe in the same things as you. You fall into greater error by rejecting the clear thinking of others that contradicts the convoluted beliefs that pervade your thoughts. Christianity is brainwashing, it isn't thoughtful at all. The arguments made by Christians to justify their beliefs always fall back on their view of God which may or may not be right and most certainly cannot be proven right. Thus, if you cannot prove you are absolutely correct, it is wise to be open to the idea that you may be the one in error.


Being in error is the human condition. It applies to all of us. This is precisely why we seek perfection without hope of ever attaining it, and strive for ideals that can never be reached by our efforts. The mere logic of our existence points to a perfect Creator and a fallen race.

I would agree with you entirely if not for one small factor: I was where you are and I have met the One True Messiah. I am a witness to His existence and His mercy.

[dys]

No, what you mean to say is so many who disagree with you and don't believe in the same things as you. You fall into greater error by rejecting the clear thinking of others that contradicts the convoluted beliefs that pervade your thoughts. Christianity is brainwashing, it isn't thoughtful at all. The arguments made by Christians to justify their beliefs always fall back on their view of God which may or may not be right and most certainly cannot be proven right. Thus, if you cannot prove you are absolutely correct, it is wise to be open to the idea that you may be the one in error.


One important point. I am a believer in Jesus Christ, and my viewpoints are NOT convoluted. They are simple.

dys

[sirgonzo420]

No, what you mean to say is so many who disagree with you and don't believe in the same things as you. You fall into greater error by rejecting the clear thinking of others that contradicts the convoluted beliefs that pervade your thoughts. Christianity is brainwashing, it isn't thoughtful at all. The arguments made by Christians to justify their beliefs always fall back on their view of God which may or may not be right and most certainly cannot be proven right. Thus, if you cannot prove you are absolutely correct, it is wise to be open to the idea that you may be the one in error.


One important point. I am a believer in Jesus Christ, and my viewpoints are NOT convoluted. They are simple.

dys


Ok.


I don't understand the metaphysics of salvation.



God creates Man.

Man sins (by acting in accordance with the Will of God).

God damns Man.

God sends Son to die to 'redeem' Man.

Men who believe in the Son are 'redeemed'.

Men who do not are damned to Hell.



How does a God-Man dying have anything to do with anyone else's real or imagined sin?

[G2Rad]

How does a God-Man dying have anything to do with anyone else's real or imagined sin?


It is like 10th times this question comes up over and over again.

Sin is a crime. Crime must not go unpunished.
Bills must be paid. That is the rule, the law.

If you are your own - You pay your bills. They are yours.

If you are a toddler - your daddy will pay off your bill.

If you want to live in adult world, as adult and with adults (gods) –then you got to play by adult’s rules.

If you aren’t god, but just as a child – your dad will take responsibility for things you broke and will pick up your bills.

What else is not clear?

[dys]

Ok.


I don't understand the metaphysics of salvation.



God creates Man.

Man sins (by acting in accordance with the Will of God).

g*d d*mns Man.

God sends Son to die to 'redeem' Man.

Men who believe in the Son are 'redeemed'.

Men who do not are damned to Hell.



How does a God-Man dying have anything to do with anyone else's real or imagined sin?




God said: "The wages of sin is death."
God is not a liar. What he says is ALWAYS true. God does not change His mind. What He says, He does. Therefore, I sin= I die. OR, I sin= someone or something dies.
"The wages of sin is death."

Btw, you have the progression totally wrong. Man does not sin in accordance with God's will. The Father of Jesus Christ is not a God of coercion. You'd probably dig him the most, if you got to know Him.

dys

[dys]

How does a God-Man dying have anything to do with anyone else's real or imagined sin?


It is like 10th times this question comes up over and over again.

Sin is a crime. Crime must not go unpunished.
Bills must be paid. That is the rule, the law.

If you are your own - You pay your bills. They are yours.

If you are a toddler - your daddy will pay off your bill.

If you want to live in adult world, as adult and with adults (gods) –then you got to play by adult’s rules.

If you aren’t god, but just as a child – your dad will take responsibility for things you broke and will pick up your bills.

What else is not clear?



Said better than I could.

dys

[G2Rad]

No, what you mean to say is so many who disagree with you and don't believe in the same things as you. You fall into greater error by rejecting the clear thinking of others

I wish I saw the "clear thinking of others" you are talking about. ;D

The "clear thinking" I have encountered in school, through University and through my PhD is nonsense mixed up with b/s.
That is your "clear thinking", Mister.
If you truly seek clear thinking - go to the Bible.



Thus, if you cannot prove you are absolutely correct ....


Yes I can prove I am absolutely correct.

[willie pete]

What happened to Lot is just continuation of what happened to Noa, who too after getting drunk got sodomised by his son Ham. Lot's daughters are from Ham's seed (Africa). Lot's wife looked backward to the land that reminded her of Egypt. Sodom and gomorah were populated by Ham's descedants.



Noah committed the sin, Not Ham. Ham saw it and told on his father. The brothers tried to hide it, that's how noah found out. Noah cursed Ham for exposing something private.


20 Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded to plant a vineyard. 21 When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. 22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father naked and told his two brothers outside. 23 But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father’s naked body. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father naked.

24 When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him,he said,

“Cursed be Canaan!
The lowest of slaves
will he be to his brothers.”
------
A child could understand this.
ximy


ximy, if "a child could understand that", why can not you?

your own quote says "his youngest son had done to him"

had done to him is different from "just saw", do you agree :oo--> ?

I hope it helps.



so is it most scholars opinion that the descendants of Hamm were/are the negroes?

[G2Rad]

so is it most scholars opinion that the descendants of Hamm were/are the negroes?


willie, I don't know what you mean by "scholars"?

[willie pete]

so is it most scholars opinion that the descendants of Hamm were/are the negroes?


willie, I don't know what you mean by "scholars"?



Well, almost anyone who has studied the Bible or has attended seminary...or just someones opinion

[G2Rad]

Well, almost anyone who has studied the Bible or has attended seminary...or just someones opinion


willie, I am not familiar with religious "scholars"

I have another background

[wrs]

I would agree with you entirely if not for one small factor: I was where you are and I have met the One True Messiah. I am a witness to His existence and His mercy.

BTDT Got a lot of tee shirts. I spent 25 years as a fundie of one stripe or another. Five years as SBC, thirteen as a mild charismatic and seven at a straight up bible church. It was all a waste of time and a very false trail. I know from experience that Christians are confused, I was one and I interacted closely with them for years and years. I taught Sunday School to young married couples, I served communion, I took the offering, I did all sorts of church activities including going to mens retreats for years. I went to scads of bible studies was a member of several different home groups and on and on and on. I also gave close to $500,000 to churches over the years so I have been there, I know it's a convoluted, senseless mess.

I have a much clearer view and somewhat better understanding of life now but I am still far from knowing what life is about. I do believe that I understand some of what is in the New Testament now and it has nothing to do with God and everything to do with your own potential that is your will. To the extent you can develop your own will, you are doing what is referred to as God's will. This is of course contrary to what you have been taught but you have been lied to. I am sorry to tell you this but it's true and I can say from experience that it's true. Basically, we are God but of course that is what the devil says according to your belief and so you are bound in the prison of your own false beliefs. That is why Christianity is a trap and a deception, you can never realize your potential and your life is wasted if you follow it's precepts.

[wrs]

Sin is a crime. Crime must not go unpunished.
Bills must be paid. That is the rule, the law.

Since when is making a mistake a crime? That is what the definition of sin is in the OT, missing the mark. In the NT it's basically the same but it is repaired by repentance. Repentance in the Greek means to think again and the result is right thinking leading to right actions. Wrong thinking leads to wrong actions (sin). It isn't a crime, it's an error and to believe that error results in damnation is just a bigger error, it's essentially the unforgivable error or sin against the holy spirit. You should consider that maybe you are the Father and the Father is you and that you have all the power that Jesus had and that the Father has because you are God (whatever God is). That is how you move a mountain, by your will. If you have no will, you have no power. You have given up your will to a set of false beliefs that take away your power to live life to it's fullest. The words Jesus spoke in the NT when taken in the right context have great power.

I have had miracles happen for me just because I believe they can and so they do, without any praying, simply me thinking and knowing that it will happen. This arises from deep meditation which may be a form of prayer but it's not supplication, it's expressing my will and knowing it will be fulfilled if I hold to it. I overcame cancer and I have seen a number of other things happen that were all of the same nature due to my will, not as a result of answered prayer or belief in something else. I simply believed that this thing or that thing could be and would be and it was. Now keep in mind, the will has to be developed and you can see how Jesus developed his will in the desert by denying himself. That is one form of the development of will but it is by no means the only way.

[bellevuebully]

Since when is making a mistake a crime? That is what the definition of sin is in the OT, missing the mark.

Sin in the ot was relying on your own will, knowledge and understanding, and failing to have faith in God. God is not concerned with mistakes. He is concerned with what leads us to make them and how we deal with them once they were made.





In the NT it's basically the same but it is repaired by repentance.

In the nt it is repaired by believing in Christ, that he died to pay for transgression that you can not pay for yourself. Repentance really is the fruit of that realization, motivated by gratitude and thanksgiving and enabled by the Holy Spirit.



Do you think that in your 25 years of involvement the problem could have been with your understanding of what is written in the bible rather than the actual message that it contains? I think that with the choices you have made, the likelihood of you agreeing to that is slim to none, but I would have to think that is a possibility from the context of your posts.

[wrs]

Do you think that in your 25 years of involvement the problem could have been with your understanding of what is written in the bible rather than the actual message that it contains?

In my 25 years I understood it exactly as you have posted and that is exactly what I came to ultimately see as wrong and twisted to the point that none of it works and simply ties one up in knots. You are free to remain contorted into a shape you weren't meant to be, I am now free from the shackles of those imprisoning beliefs you hold, I have found something better, belief in my will and the power in exercising it.

[G2Rad]

I would agree with you entirely if not for one small factor: I was where you are and I have met the One True Messiah. I am a witness to His existence and His mercy.

BTDT Got a lot of tee shirts. I spent 25 years as a fundie of one stripe or another. Five years as SBC, thirteen as a mild charismatic and seven at a straight up bible church. It was all a waste of time and a very false trail. I know from experience that Christians are confused, I was one and I interacted closely with them for years and years. I taught Sunday School to young married couples, I served communion, I took the offering, I did all sorts of church activities including going to mens retreats for years. I went to scads of bible studies was a member of several different home groups and on and on and on. I also gave close to $500,000 to churches over the years so I have been there, I know it's a convoluted, senseless mess.

I have a much clearer view and somewhat better understanding of life now but I am still far from knowing what life is about. I do believe that I understand some of what is in the New Testament now and it has nothing to do with God and everything to do with your own potential that is your will. To the extent you can develop your own will, you are doing what is referred to as God's will. This is of course contrary to what you have been taught but you have been lied to. I am sorry to tell you this but it's true and I can say from experience that it's true. Basically, we are God but of course that is what the devil says according to your belief and so you are bound in the prison of your own false beliefs. That is why Christianity is a trap and a deception, you can never realize your potential and your life is wasted if you follow it's precepts.


what verse made you a Christian? why did you believe? what were the proofs that made you into a believer?
how did those infallible proves that made you believe later disappear?
if you cannot answer that - you never ever were a Christian.
I am glad you came out from your fake Christianity
Congratulations.

It makes me sad that you’ve spent so much money and time for convoluted, senseless mess of lies those butt holes fed into you, and now you disheartened and without hope.

[wrs]

what verse made you a Christian? why did you believe? what were the proofs that made you into a believer?
how did those infallible proves that made you believe later disappear?
if you cannot answer that - you never ever were a Christian.

No verse made me a Christian, I was presented with the 4 spiritual laws and I accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior. I was baptized in a SBC church about four weeks later. It was an entirely unforced experience for me, I followed where I thought God led me. I wanted to be a better person but didn't seem to be able to do it until I accepted Christ. Belief in Christ and the H.S. helped me to quit smoking cigarettes and pot cold turkey, to quit drinking and to be a responsible parent. I saw things in my life happen that I attributed incorrectly to Jesus. It is a common mistake people make with religion, it's called the post-hoc fallacy.

A couple of years after the changes in my life had become evident I was talking to my father about how Jesus had done it and he told me that I was wrong, that I had done it and that the good in me was there all along. It took me another twenty eight years to discover that truth but first I had to discover that Jesus never did anything and that took a very long time. The truth of the matter is that the power is within all of us to do "good" and to be "good" as well as the power to do "evil" and to be "evil".

I don't need a savior, I can live with my own mistakes and I can correct them. Life is about making mistakes and learning from them. I don't need forgiveness from some God for my mistakes, I first need to forgive myself for making them and understand that they are inevitable. Life is a challenge that can be conquered if we strive to do so, the power to do so is within each of us, we only need to the will to bring it out.

You stay in your little dreamworld of powerlessness, I am living life to it's fullest now and much happier as a result.

[G2Rad]

what verse made you a Christian? why did you believe? what were the proofs that made you into a believer?
how did those infallible proves that made you believe later disappear?
if you cannot answer that - you never ever were a Christian.

No verse made me a Christian,


you had gotten no God's proofs that made you into a believer.
You “saved” yourself by your own decision.
There was nothing more but your decision.
It was all “you” and it was “yours” as your father correctly pointed out.
Being a man and no god, predictably, one day you had "a little change of heart" and you un-decided your “acceptance of Christ”.
You simply canceled your prior "christianity" decision.

A Christian cannot “unbelieve” because the verses that made him/her believe are still in the Bible and will be in there always. Heaven and Earth will pass away, but God's words will not pass away. As God's words saved man once, so only God's words have the power to un-save the man and its never going to happen because God said so and God don't change.




I don't need a savior, I can live with my own mistakes and I can correct them. Life is about making mistakes and learning from them. I don't need forgiveness from some God for my mistakes, I first need to forgive myself for making them and understand that they are inevitable. Life is a challenge that can be conquered if we strive to do so, the power to do so is within each of us, we only need to the will to bring it out.

You stay in your little dreamworld of powerlessness, I am living life to it's fullest now and much happier as a result.


you need no savior? ???

Have you figured out how to avoid death?
are you aging? wrinkles?

You said that if you "strive", you will "conquer" presumably death. I would like to see you walk the walk.
You say the power to do so is within you.
Hm, perhaps you can save the whole Earth? Can you make somebody young again?

You need a saviour; Unless God saves you, your life will be just for a little while and you will be dust and nobody will remeber you existed.

[Book]

http://images.epk.com/dozier.jpg

[G2Rad]

And the LORD God formed man of the dust .....

Lord to serpant: ..... and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:


food for thought

[wrs]

You “saved” yourself by your own decision.
There was nothing more but your decision.
It was all “you” and it was “yours” as your father correctly pointed out.

Well that is true and it's what I have come to recognize but it's true for everyone who claims to be a Christian because they all follow the same path. You think I never shared my testimony? Lot's of other Christians and also non-believers thought it was a great testimony to God. Now it makes you angry to hear it because it's not, it is a testimony to me and the good that I could do if I believed in myself. I had a totem in Jesus to help me believe in myself, that's all that Christianity really offers.


A Christian cannot “unbelieve” because the verses that made him/her believe are still in the Bible and will be in there always. Heaven and Earth will pass away, but God's words will not pass away. As God's words saved man once, so only God's words have the power to un-save the man and its never going to happen because God said so and God don't change.

Interesting theology you hold to but it's wrong. You should read the bible (which was written by men and thus cannot be God's words) a little more closely and you should also maybe brush up on Arminianism which is held to be true by a large segment of the church. You are also tripping yourself up as Awoke does so frequently on the No True Scotsman fallacy. Really, you are not doing yourself any favors by trying to pretend I was never a Christian because if that is so, you have no basis for making the claim that you are one. When you start down the path of trying to be the judge of who was or is saved, you set yourself up as God and expose yourself as a hypocrite. You condemn me for being my own God and yet you make yourself God by claiming you speak for God or that some book you hold does and your interpretation of the words is the only correct one.


Have you figured out how to avoid death?
are you aging? wrinkles?

You said that if you "strive", you will "conquer" presumably death. I would like to see you walk the walk.
You say the power to do so is within you.
Hm, perhaps you can save the whole Earth? Can you make somebody young again?

You need a saviour; Unless God saves you, your life will be just for a little while and you will be dust and nobody will remeber you existed.

You should read what I said again for meaning. I fully expect that I will die but I fully expect that I will be born again in another body, I believe in reincarnation, it makes good sense. I think conquering death is nothing more than accepting that it's no different than birth, it's a transition from one form of existence to another. I am sure that the notion of reincarnation horrifies you because the Christian church rejects it. However, it makes perfect sense to me and the idea that the soul just pops into existence when we are born and then is either banished to eternal suffering or eternal bliss after about 70 years is utter hogwash. It's a made up sham that you chose to believe, I don't and I am much happier for it. I don't need a savior because I know that I will be coming around again, I just hope that each time I live a life, I learn more and correct more of my mistakes. How I get off the wheel I don't know, that is probably a riddle we are here to solve. I don't see an answer in any of the current religions so I imagine I will be back around again trying to figure it out in the next life.

[G2Rad]

You should read the bible (which was written by men and thus cannot be God's words)

cannot be God's words?

huh? ;D

then what did you "believe"? some man's opinions?
some dude told you his pipe-dreams and you took it with no proofs?

there are as many opinions as there are people

If God did not provide us with printed info, then either he does not care or he is not allmighty.

If we don't have God's own, authentic, 100% pure words in black and white, then there could be no discussion

The Bible is the word of God, regardles of man refusing to see it.

[sunnyandseventy]

Maybe because he's the same god from the talmud and christianism is just an offshoot of judaism?

[Answer2me]

I think WRS hit on a good point, reincarnation. Every Christian (religion) believes in reincarnation, unless your an atheist. Reincarnation is to be reborn. Through the eyes of a christian this would mean passing from this life into heaven or hell. This is a belief in the simplest thoughts on reincarnation.

I think the word reincarnation has gotten a bad rap. Bring it up in a conversation and thoughts of butterflies start flying about. This goes to show how deep one has really explored the idea that reincarnation can mean something entirely more profound. I hear to often, oh I don't believe that butterfly reincarnation BS. When I hear a statement like this, I bet the only real knowledge this type of person actually has of reincarnation is what little he has picked up in conversations, In others words nothing.

In the church, most Christians will only read thoughts on deeper subjects like this from other Christian authors. In other words if it's not written by a believer than it must not be true and not worth my time. How can one expect to broaden his own eyes, look life straight in the face and make an informed decision based on a truly open heart?

[Answer2me]

How does a God-Man dying have anything to do with anyone else's real or imagined sin?


It is like 10th times this question comes up over and over again.

Sin is a crime. Crime must not go unpunished.
Bills must be paid. That is the rule, the law.

If you are your own - You pay your bills. They are yours.

If you are a toddler - your daddy will pay off your bill.

If you want to live in adult world, as adult and with adults (gods) –then you got to play by adult’s rules.

If you aren’t god, but just as a child – your dad will take responsibility for things you broke and will pick up your bills.

What else is not clear?



You mean karma?

[Answer2me]

It is contrast that defines everything. Without evil, there could be no understanding of what is good.


Possibly. But how about, without understanding perfection, there would be no understanding of evil?


How about searching for perfection within yourself instead of expecting someone else (Jesus) to do it for you?

[Awoke]

I would like people to take note that this attack on Christianity in GSus is perfectly timed with some serious positive spiritual growth that has been happening in the membership of this forum.

I have recieved some PMs from some members who are reflecting on their past condemnation of Religion, who are going through their own turning point. More than one. I also know of some other members on this forum who were/are non-Christians, who are beginning to sense that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life.

There is spiritual growth happening on the forum, Thanks be to God.






I have always warned people that when they ignore the Lord, the devil will leave them alone, but when they start to seek the Lord in their life, they put themselves in the devils crosshairs and become a point of focus.

When people are turning towards the Lord, the deceiver always redoubles his efforts to steer you away from Christ.

[Answer2me]

Why do you see this as an attack? Are we not discussing god and evil on this thread? This is a forum for discussing is it not?

[Awoke]

I suppose, but wrs's posts are an out and out attack on Christianity, and that can not be denied.

I know the way the dark side operates.