How can an omniscient God exist at the time as TRUE FREE WILL?

[sirgonzo420]

Yeah, this should be in Religion, but I'd like it in GD so it can have a chance at more discussion than it would get locked up in one of the subforums.

I was derailing another thread, so here is this one.

If God knows EVERYTHING, including every choice you will make, how can you ever really make your own "choice"?


You may FEEL like you have true free will, but it is just an illusion trumped by God's will.


There are christians here that I hold to be intelligent people, and I would really like to know how they rationalize and reconcile this apparent paradox.

[Ares]

Because it is YOUR life and YOUR choice. He knows the out come of either. But YOU'RE the one who gets to experience the choice.

God doesn't make the choice for you, and certainly doesn't force you to make a decision. That is free will.

[sirgonzo420]

Because it is YOUR life and YOUR choice. He knows the out come of either. But YOU'RE the one who gets to experience the choice.

God doesn't make the choice for you, and certainly doesn't force you to make a decision. That is free will.



Let's say I ask you to pick a number between 1 and 1000...

You pick 378.

I knew in advance, hundred of years before even your parents were born that you would end up picking 378 when the time came for me to ask you to pick a number.

Now, how could you have REALLY picked that number if I knew with divine certainty thousands of years before EXACTLY which number you would "pick"?

To me, it seems like you picking 378 was SCRIPTED... you just didn't have a copy of the script, so you thought it was your "free will".

[Ares]

Not at all, you have to separate this world from the hereafter. Does it matter that god knew what number you chose? Not at all. I truly believe that we come to this world for soul development. It doesn't matter what number or choice we make to god, just answering the question at the end, how did that choice impact your life, did it improve your soul development, or did it interfere?

God would know the answers to either.

[nunaem]

There is no true free will. One would need to be a God themselves to think or act absolutely independently, that is, without outside impetus. All of our thoughts and actions are influenced by the world around us, none of them are entirely independent.

[ShortJohnSilver]

Consider a thought experiment where a labyrinth is built with an entrance and an exit. Walls are painted different colors in some parts of the labyrinth.

Observers who are above the labyrinth can easily see the right path to take to get to the exit, and know that e.g. taking the second left will result in the participant seeing a yellow wall.

How does the observer's prior knowledge affect the choices of the person walking around in the labyrinth?

EDIT: you might say "well the existence of the labyrinth means choices are pre-made for us; to which I respond, imagine an infinitely large labyrinth with multiple exits and entrances, a shopping mall inside the labyrinth, etc."

[sirgonzo420]

Not at all, you have to separate this world from the hereafter. Does it matter that god knew what number you chose? Not at all. I truly believe that we come to this world for soul development. It doesn't matter what number or choice we make to god, just answering the question at the end, how did that choice impact your life, did it improve your soul development, or did it interfere?

God would know the answers to either.


I appreciate what you're saying... but it still seems like a paradox.

How can TRUE FREE WILL be differentiated from the ILLUSION of such?

If man exists, and God exists and is superior/supreme, then how can the wills of men be anything other than manifestations of the will of God?

An ant may FEEL like he has free will, but in reality, he is serving a purpose, fulfilling a predetermined role.

[sirgonzo420]

Consider a thought experiment where a labyrinth is built with an entrance and an exit. Walls are painted different colors in some parts of the labyrinth.

Observers who are above the labyrinth can easily see the right path to take to get to the exit, and know that e.g. taking the second left will result in the participant seeing a yellow wall.

How does the observer's prior knowledge affect the choices of the person walking around in the labyrinth?


The difference with this thought experiment is that the "observer" is not an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient God.

[k-os]

Without free will, love is not possible.

[ShortJohnSilver]

Consider a thought experiment where a labyrinth is built with an entrance and an exit. Walls are painted different colors in some parts of the labyrinth.

Observers who are above the labyrinth can easily see the right path to take to get to the exit, and know that e.g. taking the second left will result in the participant seeing a yellow wall.

How does the observer's prior knowledge affect the choices of the person walking around in the labyrinth?


The difference with this thought experiment is that the "observer" is not an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient God.



However, the observer is omniscient (can see/know all paths) - unless the observer shouts out "hey Eric, go left, then forward 10 feet, then right!" all the time, the observer's complete knowledge is still not interfering with Eric's choices; in fact, even if so, Eric can still choose to not follow the observer's directions.

[nunaem]

Consider a thought experiment where a labyrinth is built with an entrance and an exit. Walls are painted different colors in some parts of the labyrinth.

Observers who are above the labyrinth can easily see the right path to take to get to the exit, and know that e.g. taking the second left will result in the participant seeing a yellow wall.

How does the observer's prior knowledge affect the choices of the person walking around in the labyrinth?


The difference with this thought experiment is that the "observer" is not an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient God.



Yes, the key word is omniscient. An omniscient being is more than a simple observer, it has already observed everything beforehand.




However, the observer is omniscient (can see/know all paths) - unless the observer shouts out "hey Eric, go left, then forward 10 feet, then right!" all the time, the observer's complete knowledge is still not interfering with Eric's choices; in fact, even if so, Eric can still choose to not follow the observer's directions.


If the observer created Eric with the complete knowledge of his future choices, he is interfering entirely.

[sirgonzo420]

Without free will, love is not possible.


What if love is programmed or scripted in?

Think "soulmates".

[Ares]

Without free will, love is not possible.


What if love is programmed or scripted in?

Think "soulmates".


It's not because Free Will does exist. Even knowing the creator already knows the outcome you made your choices and the all determining factor is how your choices impacted you as well as the others around you.

The measure of the choices you make and how they impact others is if the choices were negative or positive. You can get a little law of one here I guess, was your choice service to self, or service to others?

Does it matter that the all knowing creator knew the outcome of either? Nope.

[DMac]

Yeah, this should be in Religion, but I'd like it in GD so it can have a chance at more discussion than it would get locked up in one of the subforums.

I was derailing another thread, so here is this one.

If God knows EVERYTHING, including every choice you will make, how can you ever really make your own "choice"?


You may FEEL like you have true free will, but it is just an illusion trumped by God's will.


There are christians here that I hold to be intelligent people, and I would really like to know how they rationalize and reconcile this apparent paradox.


I don't understand how you are mixing up knowing with acting. I know you are going to breathe, yet did I command you to? How did I know that?

Knowing and acting are mutually exclusive.

[wrs]

Because it is YOUR life and YOUR choice. He knows the out come of either. But YOU'RE the one who gets to experience the choice.

God doesn't make the choice for you, and certainly doesn't force you to make a decision. That is free will.

Then I suppose you chose your parents, your sex and your physical and mental attributes also?

[nunaem]

I don't understand how you are mixing up knowing with acting. I know you are going to breathe, yet did I command you to? How did I know that?

Knowing and acting are mutually exclusive.


If I created a boat knowing it would sink, did it choose to sink?

[Ares]

I don't understand how you are mixing up knowing with acting. I know you are going to breathe, yet did I command you to? How did I know that?

Knowing and acting are mutually exclusive.


If I created a boat knowing it would sink, did it choose to sink?


Nope, at that point you would have the omniscient and omnipotent abilities as the boat is your creation. You chose to sink it since you built it to sink. The boat had no choice. It has no soul, and it has no ability to decide.

[DMac]

I don't understand how you are mixing up knowing with acting. I know you are going to breathe, yet did I command you to? How did I know that?

Knowing and acting are mutually exclusive.


If I created a boat knowing it would sink, did it choose to sink?


Is your boat sentient?

[nunaem]

It is as sentient to me as you are sentient to your creator.

[DMac]

It is as sentient to me as you are sentient to your creator.


I'll assume you don't want to have a serious discussion on this when attributing thought to boats.

[Horn]

If God knows EVERYTHING, including every choice you will make, how can you ever really make your own "choice"?

Your problem lies in the properties of the hammer. :)

You & he/ aren't apart, or separated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi5D03-KARM

[7th trump]

Yeah, this should be in Religion, but I'd like it in GD so it can have a chance at more discussion than it would get locked up in one of the subforums.

I was derailing another thread, so here is this one.

If God knows EVERYTHING, including every choice you will make, how can you ever really make your own "choice"?


You may FEEL like you have true free will, but it is just an illusion trumped by God's will.


There are christians here that I hold to be intelligent people, and I would really like to know how they rationalize and reconcile this apparent paradox.
Psssssst!
God doesnt know every choice you will make..........................thats not free will!
You need to stop listening to religious idiot freaks and the mainstream churches.

[Santa]

Awesome,... Huge and important question.

I can't answer it because I don't know, although I think a certain amount
of predestination is statistically probable in a field of infinite possibilities.

Here's another along the same lines.

Does someone who's born mentally ill or brain damaged have free will or is the electrochemical imbalance etc. dictating his actions? What about a quadriplegic or someone in a coma?
How about while sleeping? Do we all have free will in our dreams?

Personally, every so often I have difficulty exercising the free will to even piss when I want to, (I'm an old bastard)
so if I can't pull such a small and insignificant act as pissing off, it strikes me as sort
of arrogant to imagine I have free will in all my actions throughout my entire life.

Although I have to say that God exists regardless of my or anyone's free will or lack thereof, but I'm not exactly Christian so I'll let it go at that for now since the OP is asking the question of them.

[sirgonzo420]

Yeah, this should be in Religion, but I'd like it in GD so it can have a chance at more discussion than it would get locked up in one of the subforums.

I was derailing another thread, so here is this one.

If God knows EVERYTHING, including every choice you will make, how can you ever really make your own "choice"?


You may FEEL like you have true free will, but it is just an illusion trumped by God's will.


There are christians here that I hold to be intelligent people, and I would really like to know how they rationalize and reconcile this apparent paradox.


I don't understand how you are mixing up knowing with acting. I know you are going to breathe, yet did I command you to? How did I know that?

Knowing and acting are mutually exclusive.


You're right in that you can predict my breathing. But, you are not my Creator.


God came up with this whole deal. He designed it from the start.

Can God be surprised?

[Ponce]

Why worry about God when Ponce is here............ufffffffffffffff bunch of infidels.

First post of the day...........Good morning (afternoon) to one and all.

[sirgonzo420]

It is as sentient to me as you are sentient to your creator.


I'll assume you don't want to have a serious discussion on this when attributing thought to boats.


Is God more sentient than man?

Is man more sentient than a boat?

?

[ximmy]

Yeah, this should be in Religion, but I'd like it in GD so it can have a chance at more discussion than it would get locked up in one of the subforums.

I was derailing another thread, so here is this one.

If God knows EVERYTHING, including every choice you will make, how can you ever really make your own "choice"?


You may FEEL like you have true free will, but it is just an illusion trumped by God's will.


There are christians here that I hold to be intelligent people, and I would really like to know how they rationalize and reconcile this apparent paradox.


Who told you God knows everything... the whole concept of freedom is to let go... he may know the final outcome, but not everything in between.

Gen. 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Jer. 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Free will:
Gen11:5-7 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

Rev. 22:17: 17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely

[sirgonzo420]

Awesome,... Huge and important question.

I can't answer it because I don't know, although I think a certain amount
of predestination is statistically probable in a field of infinite possibilities.

Here's another along the same lines.

Does someone who's born mentally ill or brain damaged have free will or is the electrochemical imbalance etc. dictating his actions? What about a quadriplegic or someone in a coma?
How about while sleeping? Do we all have free will in our dreams?

Personally, every so often I have difficulty exercising the free will to even piss when I want to, (I'm an old bastard)
so if I can't pull such a small and insignificant act as pissing off, it strikes me as sort
of arrogant to imagine I have free will in all my actions throughout my entire life.

Although I have to say that God exists regardless of my or anyone's free will or lack thereof, but I'm not exactly Christian so I'll let it go at that for now since the OP is asking the question of them.






We seem to be on the same page.

:)


Also, hats off to nunaem for saving me some posts!

[ShortJohnSilver]

If the observer created Eric with the complete knowledge of his future choices, he is interfering entirely.


I don't follow ... care to lay it out logically for me? How does the observer/creator control Eric?

[DMac]

It is as sentient to me as you are sentient to your creator.


I'll assume you don't want to have a serious discussion on this when attributing thought to boats.


Is God more sentient than man?

Is man more sentient than a boat?

?


I'm a bit let down you and nunaem are asking something like that. Comes off trollish as it is downright silly. Good luck with the thread.

[sirgonzo420]

Yeah, this should be in Religion, but I'd like it in GD so it can have a chance at more discussion than it would get locked up in one of the subforums.

I was derailing another thread, so here is this one.

If God knows EVERYTHING, including every choice you will make, how can you ever really make your own "choice"?


You may FEEL like you have true free will, but it is just an illusion trumped by God's will.


There are christians here that I hold to be intelligent people, and I would really like to know how they rationalize and reconcile this apparent paradox.


Who told you God knows everything... the whole concept of freedom is to let go... he may know the final outcome, but not everything in between.

Gen. 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Jer. 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Free will:
Gen11:5-7 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

Rev. 22:17: 17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely



In the past, pastors have told me that God asked where Adam was "just to see if Adam would tell him, since God already knew where he was"... (which of course undermines his omniscience).


The point I was trying to make is that there is a paradox IF God is omniscient, and man has true free will.

I was under the impression most christians consider their God to be all-knowing.

Jeremiah 1:5 leans that way too:
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

What is the consensus here amongst christians?

Is God omniscient, yes or no?

If no, then there is no paradox. If yes, then there is a paradox, or no TRUE free will.

[sirgonzo420]

It is as sentient to me as you are sentient to your creator.


I'll assume you don't want to have a serious discussion on this when attributing thought to boats.


Is God more sentient than man?

Is man more sentient than a boat?

?


I'm a bit let down you and nunaem are asking something like that. Comes off trollish as it is downright silly. Good luck with the thread.


We are infinitely more sentient than a boat, yes?

Is God infinitely more sentient than we are?


I see what you are saying. People can think, boats can't. But God can think thoughts that people can't think! In that regard, we are like a boat (or, perhaps more appropriately, a "vessel") to God, in that we are not nearly as sentient as he is.

[Horn]

In that regard, we are like a boat (or, perhaps more appropriately, a "vessel") to God, in that we are not nearly as sentient as he is.


Nearly as calculating as the nuclei in my little finger.

[7th trump]

Yeah, this should be in Religion, but I'd like it in GD so it can have a chance at more discussion than it would get locked up in one of the subforums.

I was derailing another thread, so here is this one.

If God knows EVERYTHING, including every choice you will make, how can you ever really make your own "choice"?


You may FEEL like you have true free will, but it is just an illusion trumped by God's will.


There are christians here that I hold to be intelligent people, and I would really like to know how they rationalize and reconcile this apparent paradox.


Who told you God knows everything... the whole concept of freedom is to let go... he may know the final outcome, but not everything in between.

Gen. 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Jer. 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Free will:
Gen11:5-7 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

Rev. 22:17: 17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely



In the past, pastors have told me that God asked where Adam was "just to see if Adam would tell him, since God already knew where he was"... (which of course undermines his omniscience).


The point I was trying to make is that there is a paradox IF God is omniscient, and man has true free will.

I was under the impression most christians consider their God to be all-knowing.

Jeremiah 1:5 leans that way too:
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

What is the consensus here amongst christians?

Is God omniscient, yes or no?

If no, then there is no paradox. If yes, then there is a paradox, or no TRUE free will.

Sirgonzo,
What you are reading in Jeremiah 1:5 is the evidence of the first earth age.
Not everyone followed lucifers revolt in that age. Some, beleive it or not, fought against lucifer in that first earth age.
It is these people who God "knew" before forming them into the belly. They are ordained and sactified for their actions against lucifer in that earth age.
Even the 144,000 witnesses in the end days fought against lucifer in the first earth age.
I'm not saying these people are perfect. Even Mosses killed a man and he was punished for it. But I can tell you they are more special than the average men.

[Ponce]

OK, let me try this God thingy...........OH God, you who are all powerfull and ruler of man and beast I would like to asked you this...........where the heck is my avatar?

All this should be in the religion or Sy-Fy section, no?

[G2Rad]

If God knows EVERYTHING, including every choice you will make, how can you ever really make your own "choice"?

You may FEEL like you have true free will, but it is just an illusion trumped by God's will.

There are christians here that I hold to be intelligent people, and I would really like to know how they rationalize and reconcile this apparent paradox.


Today I know choices Michael Jackson made in his life.

Those were his choices. How my knowing his choices trumpes Michael's will?

where is the paradox? ::)

[Awoke]

I tried to contribute to both of your queries in the Gaga thread.

http://gold-silver.us/forum/general-discussion/remember-the-occultic-analysis-of-much-music-mva-awards/msg177082/#msg177082

[sirgonzo420]

If God knows EVERYTHING, including every choice you will make, how can you ever really make your own "choice"?

You may FEEL like you have true free will, but it is just an illusion trumped by God's will.

There are christians here that I hold to be intelligent people, and I would really like to know how they rationalize and reconcile this apparent paradox.


Today I know choices Michael Jeckson made in his life.

Those were his choices. How my knowing his choices trumpes Michael's will?

where is the paradox? ::)



The paradox is not in simple knowing (whether before, or after the fact), but in OMNISCIENCE.

You may know things about Michael AFTER he died, but God made Michael, made everything else, and God knows everything there is to know. He knew Michael would marry Lisa Marie in a sham marriage before Michael even played with the Jackson 5.

God designed it all... He knows it all inside and out.

Can God be surprised?

If we cannot "suprise" God, then we have no free will, we merely have an illusion. And this illusion is convincing enough for us so as to be a substitute for TRUE FREE WILL.

[keehah]

OK, let me try this God thingy...........OH God, you who are all powerfull and ruler of man and beast I would like to asked you this...........where the heck is my avatar?

Some "substitute God with G-d so that they can erase or dispose of the writing without showing disrespect to God."

Think of your Avatar as the 'o' Ponce. ;D

[G2Rad]

If we cannot "suprise" God, then we have no free will.


I am under impression that you erroneously presume that our lives somehow written in advance, pre-determined before we where born.

God is beyond this Universe. He is an outsider. The only outsider.

Concept of "Time", being property of this Universe is non-existent for outsider.

Therefore the very concept of "surprise", which requires concept of "time" as prerequisite is not applicable to God.

Likewise, pre-determination of our actions by God in advance requires concept of "time" as prerequisite too. God does not live in our spacetime continuum/Matrix world. Common sense works great only while it is apllied inside of its scope.

[StreetsOfGold]

I think the mistake made with this presumption is that God is living right now along with us (our lives) (in real time) which is a half truth. He is outside of time and space and he knows the beginning from the end.

Since we cannot fathom no beginning (we had a beginning) we can however, imagine no end (since we will have no end, just our current bodies will end).

God does not have this problem, he knows what it's like to have no beginning AND no end. Since he is outside time and space and is looking at everything we are going through as an observer (so to speak) watching out decisions. The one decision he most surely wants is this:

1John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ (free will decision), and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Without making this decision, all others will not matter.

[DMac]

If God knows EVERYTHING, including every choice you will make, how can you ever really make your own "choice"?

You may FEEL like you have true free will, but it is just an illusion trumped by God's will.

There are christians here that I hold to be intelligent people, and I would really like to know how they rationalize and reconcile this apparent paradox.


Today I know choices Michael Jeckson made in his life.

Those were his choices. How my knowing his choices trumpes Michael's will?

where is the paradox? ::)



The paradox is not in simple knowing (whether before, or after the fact), but in OMNISCIENCE.

You may know things about Michael AFTER he died, but God made Michael, made everything else, and God knows everything there is to know. He knew Michael would marry Lisa Marie in a sham marriage before Michael even played with the Jackson 5.

God designed it all... He knows it all inside and out.

Can God be surprised?

If we cannot "suprise" God, then we have no free will, we merely have an illusion. And this illusion is convincing enough for us so as to be a substitute for TRUE FREE WILL.



What you are describing is called Logical Fatalism

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fatalism/

Related reading:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/omniscience/

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-will-foreknowledge/

Personally, I attribute an a-temporal (or eternal) position of God, existing outside of time - the unmoved mover. This is a similar perspective that Thomas Aquinas held. I highly recommend the board read his works. Believer in God or not.


God existing beyond time (and therefore matter) leave God in a position to know everything in its entirety, not within a framework of past or future (this is a material perspective, one we are all living in like it or not). God's vision allows God to see everything as it is in itself, not as it is relative to his view.

[sirgonzo420]

If we cannot "suprise" God, then we have no free will.


I am under impression that you erroneously presume that our lives somehow written in advance, pre-determined before we where born.

God is beyond this Universe. He is an outsider. The only outsider.

Concept of "Time", being property of this Universe is non-existent for outsider.

Therefore the very concept of "surprise", which requires concept of "time" as prerequisite is not applicable to God.

Likewise, pre-determination of our actions by God in advance requires concept of "time" as prerequisite too. God does not live in our spacetime continuum/Matrix world. Common sense works great only while it is apllied inside of its scope.


Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "suprise". What I meant was, can anyone do anything that is outside God's Design?

I agree with God being timeless.

Is the universe a manifestation (perhaps the sole manifestation) of God's will?

If so, then aren't our meager little "wills" merely a tiny part of God's own divine, supreme, all-encompassing will?

It may SEEM like we have free will, but we don't; it's just an ILLUSION of free will (much like the ILLUSION of "age" of the newly created plants/animals/Adam/Eve of the Garden of Eden - presumably, the day after Creation, everything would look full grown, and Adam and Eve adults, when they are really less than 48 hours old).

In a way, it is arrogant to think that we have a real say in the universe.

We are unknowing actors in God's complex play.

[keehah]

Now we are getting to the 'heart' of the matter, aetheric energy dimensions.

Interesting the anagram of 'aetheric' is 'cheatier'.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cheatier#English

Comparative form of cheaty: more cheaty.

[Gaillo]

...If God knows EVERYTHING, including every choice you will make, how can you ever really make your own "choice"?

You may FEEL like you have true free will, but it is just an illusion trumped by God's will...

Yep. One of the reasons I choose NOT to believe in God - you can NOT have free will and an omnicient being at the same time. It's one or the other... for me it's free will.

One other aspect to this... if you have an omnicient (all-knowing) God, who is also omnipotent (capable of doing anything), then that god would be EVIL because of all the suffering he has ALLOWED to happen when he has the power to change it. Besides, the two (omnicience and omnipotence) are at odds with each other - if you can do ANYTHING, then you can change the future... but if you already know the future, then you can't change it... viscious circle of contradiction.

[DMac]

...If God knows EVERYTHING, including every choice you will make, how can you ever really make your own "choice"?

You may FEEL like you have true free will, but it is just an illusion trumped by God's will...

Yep. One of the reasons I choose NOT to believe in God - you can NOT have free will and an omnicient being at the same time. It's one or the other... for me it's free will.

One other aspect to this... if you have an omnicient (all-knowing) God, who is also omnipotent (capable of doing anything), then that god would be EVIL because of all the suffering he has ALLOWED to happen when he has the power to change it. Besides, the two (omnicience and omnipotence) are at odds with each other - if you can do ANYTHING, then you can change the future... but if you already know the future, then you can't change it... viscious circle of contradiction.


Vicious circle of trapped thoughts - you are hindered by your vocabulary and what you think the words mean. Refer to my post above (Grad's also).

[Serpo]

Isnt it pointless asking others about God , it means the person relies on others opinions on religion or spiritual insight.

These opinions are ideas which have no relationship with reality.

The church is built on ideas .....not experience.

People talk about this subject endlessly and get no where because ideas will only go around in circles .

God is not an idea but to nearly everyone he is.

Its an example of madness, insanity.

Dogma.

This is why I try and steer clear of the Religious section.....its madness.
Now this madness is in the GD area.

ps I am not an atheist but neither am I in a religion,but why should that be important anyway unless you want to separate me from you.

By having no attachments to these beliefs I feel close to all people which ever type of faith they may have.If I belonged to something and met someone from some other faith then I would feel as close to them as I would have opposing views and so conflict would be underlying any relationship here.

Isnt it about love ,unconditional love........

Seeing truth is exactly that ,seeing and not thinking you have seen it or learning about it and then becoming some authority on the subject.

Question everything you have learnt ,believe no one or any institution.

Ideas are of the mind,trapped in the mind with the dogma which rattles and rattles around in peoples heads. In reality this is a form of madness and is seen that way.

Just because someone is trapped in a church or religion or ideas and beliefs dosnt mean that everyone is or others are or need to be.And dont feel sorry for us either,Im not the one that has built their own prison around them out of fear.Yes out of FEAR ,just like ponce mentioned.....scared.

A religion is an organisation run by other people, pushing their ideas and beliefs on others.This usually has the effect of separating man from god .

To be free of DOGMA is to see reality and live in freedom.

Throw every bible reference you want at me but as I said when you need to rely on other peoples ideas and beliefs and use them as your own you become a second hand human being.The world is full of them.

[keehah]

Vicious circle of trapped thoughts - you are hindered by your vocabulary and what you think the words mean. Refer to my post above

Talk about a vicious circle of trapped thought!

[DMac]

Vicious circle of trapped thoughts - you are hindered by your vocabulary and what you think the words mean. Refer to my post above

Talk about a vicious circle of trapped thought!


Go ahead and point it out then.

[sirgonzo420]

What you are describing is called Logical Fatalism

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fatalism/

Related reading:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/omniscience/

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-will-foreknowledge/

Personally, I attribute an a-temporal (or eternal) position of God, existing outside of time - the unmoved mover. This is a similar perspective that Thomas Aquinas held. I highly recommend the board read his works. Believer in God or not.


God existing beyond time (and therefore matter) leave God in a position to know everything in its entirety, not within a framework of past or future (this is a material perspective, one we are all living in like it or not). God's vision allows God to see everything as it is in itself, not as it is relative to his view.




LOL....


I thought about locking the thread until I read the links... as a sort of "pause".

I won't lock the thread, but I'll read the links.

:)

[DMac]

What you are describing is called Logical Fatalism

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fatalism/

Related reading:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/omniscience/

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-will-foreknowledge/

Personally, I attribute an a-temporal (or eternal) position of God, existing outside of time - the unmoved mover. This is a similar perspective that Thomas Aquinas held. I highly recommend the board read his works. Believer in God or not.


God existing beyond time (and therefore matter) leave God in a position to know everything in its entirety, not within a framework of past or future (this is a material perspective, one we are all living in like it or not). God's vision allows God to see everything as it is in itself, not as it is relative to his view.




LOL....


I thought about locking the thread until I read the links... as a sort of "pause".

I won't lock the thread, but I'll read the links.

:)


Thanks SirG, I have faith you will read them. I feel like when I post stuff about the tough subjects (philosophy) I get zero takers on the links I put up.

I used to think very much like you and Gaillo. Aquinas is a tough read, but worth it, IMO. Dawkins' failed to understand Aquinas in The God Delusion.

This topic is not a new one. Our questions and thoughts on the subject are not original.

[sirgonzo420]

Thanks SirG, I have faith you will read them. I feel like when I post stuff about the tough subjects (philosophy) I get zero takers on the links I put up.

I used to think very much like you and Gaillo. Aquinas is a tough read, but worth it, IMO. Dawkins' failed to understand Aquinas in The God Delusion.

This topic is not a new one. Our questions and thoughts on the subject are not original.


I know it's not a new topic. But I have a hard time finding people wanting to discuss it also.

I tend to despise Dawkins.

I'm not an athiest, but I don't believe in the sky-bully (I may have got that from Gaillo) type god of the bible.

I'm not sure if there is a label for me or not.


Anyway, I enjoy the discussion as well.

[keehah]

If God knows EVERYTHING, including every choice you will make, how can you ever really make your own "choice"?
You may FEEL like you have true free will, but it is just an illusion trumped by God's will.

God knows EVERYTHING infinitely in the moment. But us lower energy conscious beings have time on our side.


In each quantum moment, an Aether unit is actualy moving in the forward time direction and then in the reverse time direction, oscillating a full cycle at the quantum frequency. For whatever reason, onta only exist in the forward time direction. Onta do not experience the reverse time direction, therefore the larger structures formed from onta (planets, animal bodies, plants, etc.) also to not experience the reverse time direction. ...

Due to the 1/2 spin nature of onta, we cannot experience the reverse time direction. So time appears to be an succession of quantum, forward time intervals. In "God's Eyes'" there is a quantum frequency, which always exists in the present. Through human eyes, since bodies are made of 1/2 spin onta, time appears to move from past toward the future. Thus linear time is an illusion based on the perception that arises from physical embodiment. ...

When Coulomb's constant divides by stroke squared, we get the Gforce.
Secrets of the Aether pp35-36

[Gaillo]

...If God knows EVERYTHING, including every choice you will make, how can you ever really make your own "choice"?

You may FEEL like you have true free will, but it is just an illusion trumped by God's will...

Yep. One of the reasons I choose NOT to believe in God - you can NOT have free will and an omnicient being at the same time. It's one or the other... for me it's free will.

One other aspect to this... if you have an omnicient (all-knowing) God, who is also omnipotent (capable of doing anything), then that god would be EVIL because of all the suffering he has ALLOWED to happen when he has the power to change it. Besides, the two (omnicience and omnipotence) are at odds with each other - if you can do ANYTHING, then you can change the future... but if you already know the future, then you can't change it... viscious circle of contradiction.


Vicious circle of trapped thoughts - you are hindered by your vocabulary and what you think the words mean. Refer to my post above (Grad's also).


Actually, I know EXACTLY what the words mean:

Omniscient - ALL knowing
Freewill - Ability to choose from more than one action

The two are eternally, by definition, at odds with each other. If there is ANY being, anywhere, that knows everything (which would, BY DEFINITION, include future events...) then this would AUTOMATICALLY imply that the future is pre-determined, and freewill is impossible.

It has been my experience that religious people, in an attempt to hold on to irrational beliefs, are the ones who tend to have incorrect definitions of the meanings of words, and distort the meanings of the concepts associated with those words.

[mamboni]

My friends:

We live in an agathocacological world, where tortured debate can illuminate or often as it were obnubilate. Learned wise men of the past swore by haruspication, reminding us to guard against ecclesiolatry. Some assert that the Enlightenment ushered in theoktony, and allowed for the vilipending of volowers and their ilk. But this cacoethes that afflicts agnostics should be stultified lest we discourage the philonoist. Are we to ostracize the gaberlunzie that asks but a simple question because of his incessant borborygmus and blodder? Let us not treat religion as a beldam, chortling criticism with an arrogant frustling. The pursuit of knowledge is multivious, and a glimpse of demiurge is worthy of our efforts, whilst ipsedixitism is an impediment. Some may call me an aeolist prone to anthropopathy trapped in nullibiety. Though my plea be filipendulous, I am sincere and totally innocent of sgiomlaireached. ::)

[keehah]

How an omniscient God exists at the time of TRUE FREE WILL:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism

The term “Pantheism" is derived from Greek words πάν ('pan') meaning 'all' and "θεός" ('theos') meaning God, in the sense of theism. ...

In the West, Pantheism went into retreat during the Christian years between the 4th and 15th centuries, when it was regarded as heresy. The first open revival was by Giordano Bruno (burned at the stake in 1600)...

For a time during the 19th century it seemed like Pantheism was the religion of the future, attracting figures such as William Wordsworth and Samuel Coleridge in Britain; Johann Gottlieb Fichte, Friedrich Wilhelm Joseph Schelling and Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel in Germany; Walt Whitman, Ralph Waldo Emerson, and Henry David Thoreau in the USA. Seen as a threat by the Vatican, it came under attack in the notorious Syllabus of Errors of Pius IX.

However, in the 20th century Pantheism was sidelined by political ideologies such as Communism and Fascism, by the traumatic upheavals of two world wars, and later by relativistic philosophies such as Existentialism and Post-Modernism.

[G2Rad]

if you have an omnicient (all-knowing) God, who is also omnipotent (capable of doing anything), then that god would be EVIL because of all the suffering he has ALLOWED to happen when he has the power to change it. Besides, the two (omnicience and omnipotence) are at odds with each other - if you can do ANYTHING, then you can change the future... but if you already know the future, then you can't change it... viscious circle of contradiction.

.... suffering he has ALLOWED ....
a child should be allowed the suffering of stumbling and falling for the benefit of learning to walk

... if you can do ANYTHING, then you can change the future... but if you already know the future, then you can't change it ...

Gaillo, a god that "can do ANYTHING" is Mr. Satan.
There are self-imposed LIMITS to what true God does.
F.e., God would not lie or brake His word.
God whoes name is I am that I am does not change. For a change to occur there must be time, and He is beyond time.
Neither does God change/undo His decisions. His perfect decisions once made made for ever.
Thus your "vicious circle of contradiction" consiting of doing/undoing changing/correcting decisions, messing up the future is brought to a nil.

[Gaillo]

if you have an omnicient (all-knowing) God, who is also omnipotent (capable of doing anything), then that god would be EVIL because of all the suffering he has ALLOWED to happen when he has the power to change it. Besides, the two (omnicience and omnipotence) are at odds with each other - if you can do ANYTHING, then you can change the future... but if you already know the future, then you can't change it... viscious circle of contradiction.


.... suffering he has ALLOWED ....
a child should be allowed the suffering of stumbling and falling for the benefit of learning to walk



Or the child is allowed to be raped and killed by a cocaine fueled Liberian street thug for the benefit of... what exactly again? ???

I don't buy it. I don't buy the endless rationalizations made by irrational religious "believers" who tell me all the horrors of this world are actually for our BENEFIT... or some cosmic chess game between God and Satan to prove who's "right"...

This is why I stay away from the religious section... I'm not going to convince you, you have erected a huge wall of rationalizations to defend your belief system. You are not going to convince me... I have erected a huge wall of logical thought to keep from being infected by the irrational religious virus.

Let's agree to disagree, and see if we can find common ground in politics, economics, and metals.

[G2Rad]

If so, then aren't our meager little "wills" merely a tiny part of God's own divine, supreme, all-encompassing will?

It may SEEM like we have free will, but we don't; it's just an ILLUSION of free will (much like the ILLUSION of "age" of the newly created plants/animals/Adam/Eve of the Garden of Eden - presumably, the day after Creation, everything would look full grown, and Adam and Eve adults, when they are really less than 48 hours old).

In a way, it is arrogant to think that we have a real say in the universe.


Yes, tiny and meager we are, yet our Maker is Great and Mighty.
I would dare say we do have a real say in the Universe as much as God died for us. Death of the Creator for our sake is not a small deal.

[Bullion_Bob]

Toss in a dash of quantum physics where absolutely everything is predictable as the instrument(s) used to measure the experiment affect it, which influences the outcome every time.

Going on that reality, God is most likely interfering with everyone by being able to measure people thus "skewing the/his experiment".

We know all matter is connected, so there would have to be some kind externally measurable atomic connection enough to affect brainwave patterns, and human behavior, otherwise it would have to be coming from within.

Things that make you go hmm.

[TheNocturnalEgyptian]

This has been a famous argument since at least ancient Greece:


“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

-Epicures

[vacuum]

What is the biblical foundation for God's omnipotent and omniscient qualities?

[Bullion_Bob]

Interesting points brought up questioning the topic of intelligent design.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISg6j7BF02Q&feature=related

[G2Rad]

to affect brainwave patterns, and human behavior, otherwise it would have to be coming from within.

I would not overemphasize brain. Tissues don't know about issues.
Brain does not think.
Brain is antena through which we are hooked into the Matrix.

There is a bigger reality than the world of dreams/shadows we live in.

One day we unhook, and then either Hell or the new Earth.

[Bullion_Bob]

to affect brainwave patterns, and human behavior, otherwise it would have to be coming from within.

I would not overemphasize brain. Tissues don't know about issues.
Brain does not think.
Brain is antena through which we are hooked into the Matrix.

There is a bigger reality than the world of dreams/shadows we live in.

One day we unhook, and then either Hell or the new Earth.


The disconnect is not total, as the brain forms physical pathways that produce behavioral patterns.

Neurons continually stake out connections like roots as thought processes develop. In essence the brain physically changes in structure over time according to our thoughts, and experiences.

[MAGNES]

If God knows EVERYTHING, including every choice you will make, how can you ever really make your own "choice"?


If this were true you could prove God is Satan.

Why would God put these clowns on the planet.

http://www.abidemiracles.com/images/babylonillum2/58_01supremecourt.jpeg

[G2Rad]

This has been a famous argument since at least ancient Greece:


“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

-Epicures


Evil is not evil before it is committed. See the Minority Report for example.

[MAGNES]

This forum is full of philosophers asking tough questions.

General of Darkness had a good one recently.

A lot of these questions asked have been pounded to death.

By guess who. lol

They actually killed the top guy for asking questions like this. ROFL !

Be careful people. ;D

[Bullion_Bob]

to affect brainwave patterns, and human behavior, otherwise it would have to be coming from within.


Brain does not think.
Brain is antena through which we are hooked into the Matrix.

There is a bigger reality than the world of dreams/shadows we live in.

One day we unhook, and then either Hell or the new Earth.


Back on this angle. If there are no discernible patterns within white noise, how is it that the brain can form patterns out of nothing, and gain life direction from them?

White noise for example, in visual form, is the snowy static on your TV screen when there is no channel. It is all frequencies coming at us from every direction.

If the brain cannot visually gain any sort of meaningful direction from that, what makes you think people can do it blindly through extremely minute signals to the the brain itself.

Man cannot detect even much stronger signals such as the magnetic influence from the earths poles, as people get lost while traveling all the time.

Some animals have been proven to do it, yet man is completely hopeless at it without a magnetic measuring device such as a compass.

So we cannot have any sense whatsoever of earths very strong magnetic influence (which is extremely persistent i.e. incredibly easy to predict), yet somehow infinitely weaker, and completely random signals dictate our entire lives?

I can't find any logic in that.

[sirgonzo420]

to affect brainwave patterns, and human behavior, otherwise it would have to be coming from within.


Brain does not think.
Brain is antena through which we are hooked into the Matrix.

There is a bigger reality than the world of dreams/shadows we live in.

One day we unhook, and then either Hell or the new Earth.


Back on this angle. If there are no discernible patterns within white noise, how is it that the brain can form patterns out of nothing, and gain life direction from them?

White noise for example, in visual form, is the snowy static on your TV screen when there is no channel. It is all frequencies coming at us from every direction.

If the brain cannot visually gain any sort of meaningful direction from that, what makes you think people can do it blindly through extremely minute signals to the the brain itself.

Man cannot detect even much stronger signals such as the magnetic influence from the earths poles, as people get lost while traveling all the time.

Some animals have been proven to do it, yet man is completely hopeless at it without a magnetic measuring device such as a compass.

So we cannot have any sense whatsoever of earths very strong magnetic influence (which is extremely persistent i.e. incredibly easy to predict), yet somehow infinitely weaker, and completely random signals dictate our entire lives?

I can't find any logic in that.




That's not necessarily true. I know where north is.

I just have a "feeling" of where it is. I can't really explain it, but when I was a kid I would carry a compass around to check my "guesses" in various locations. I may not have always been able to point my finger at EXACT north 100% of the time, but I'd always be within a few degrees.

I can still get lost though.

lol

[Ponce]

According to the legend God made us in his own imaged which means that like us God can be bad or he can be also good, he makes jokes about me as I make jokes about him and that's we get along just fine... the only fear of God that you have is only the fear that you yourself created...........from God Jr in training ;D

[G2Rad]

According to the legend God made us in his own imaged which means that like us God can be bad or he can be also good, he makes jokes about me as I make jokes about him and that's we get along just fine... the only fear of God that you have is only the fear that you yourself created...........from God Jr in training ;D


Watch less TV and read more …e of the Bible

[kregener]

http://www.ruckmakers.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/whitenoise.bmp

[Serpo]

My friends:

We live in an agathocacological world, where tortured debate can illuminate or often as it were obnubilate. Learned wise men of the past swore by haruspication, reminding us to guard against ecclesiolatry. Some assert that the Enlightenment ushered in theoktony, and allowed for the vilipending of volowers and their ilk. But this cacoethes that afflicts agnostics should be stultified lest we discourage the philonoist. Are we to ostracize the gaberlunzie that asks but a simple question because of his incessant borborygmus and blodder? Let us not treat religion as a beldam, chortling criticism with an arrogant frustling. The pursuit of knowledge is multivious, and a glimpse of demiurge is worthy of our efforts, whilst ipsedixitism is an impediment. Some may call me an aeolist prone to anthropopathy trapped in nullibiety. Though my plea be filipendulous, I am sincere and totally innocent of sgiomlaireached. ::)


This is easier to understand than the bible....

[Serpo]

There is no answer because there is no question.

There is only the question when you think of it, that means you are thinking and it is of the mind.

Any answer will have to come back via the mind to ,so this may pacify the mind for a time.But not for long.

You only ask the question when you doubt or have fear .

Why ask any question , why not be one with your conscious mind.

Its really not that difficult, unless of course a question is asked and then we start thinking trying to answer it.

The matrix is of the mind....thinking ,reasoning,even believing that what the mind thinks is in fact true and real even though it is only a thought structure and nothing more.

Consciousness is freedom ,consciousness is that little place where we have gaps in our thinking or the spaces in between.

If we let the little empty gaps in between our thinking take over more we get conscious experience more and more. We notice when we have thoughts more and what may trigger them to become run away crazy.
If its peace you wont it wont be found in dogma and it wont be found in constant thinking.

This is what dimensional change is or vibrational change means ....less living in the mental concepts trying to understand answers to stuff as the answers are all seen for yourself as you live by your very own conscious mind.

To believe in what others believe and then form large groups that all believe this is a total cope out,period.It means a person has given up and has no faith.....no faith in themselves ,which in the end is an insult to the prime creator.

Religion talks about faith all the time but the person has already given up faith in themselves by joining the religion otherwise why join and put your faith into that which is exactly what they do.All the faith goes in to the religion and then they may come along and say brother have you no faith in our religion blah blah.And I look at them with out comparing ,without competing, with a conscious mind and see a mad man speaking to me.

My faith is in everything that lives and dosnt live,everything that is and forever will be or has been.My faith runs through timelessness and further than infinity in any direction.



It is from my own experience and knowledge that this is written.....

why believe someone else even though it maybe true......

for that matter dont believe me either how am I going to really care , I only type these words now through pain.

[Sparky]

Let's say you secretly saw a football team's playbook, and you knew what they were going to call on the first play.

As you sit in the stands watching the game, are they still making the call, or has your knowledge somehow dis-empowered them? Are they still not in a position to strive for the best possible outcome from the play as it unfolds?

One of the difficulties with these religious/faith debates is that we try to frame them in ways we that we think about the rest of the world, because that's what we know. "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the Lord."

It's great to think about these things, but so much of it comes back to faith. In a sense, He chooses you. But if you knock, you get chosen. That's a whole other discussion.

[vacuum]

What is the biblical foundation for God's omnipotent and omniscient qualities?

Still wondering, can someone answer?

[TheNocturnalEgyptian]

What is the biblical foundation for God's omnipotent and omniscient qualities?

Still wondering, can someone answer?


I can't provide a quote for that. It's an assumption on my part. For all I know, it is a well perpetuated myth.

[Santa]

What is the biblical foundation for God's omnipotent and omniscient qualities?

Still wondering, can someone answer?


I can't provide a quote for that. It's an assumption on my part. For all I know, it is a well perpetuated myth.


Here are some Bible quotes that sort of answer your question, vacuum.


Rev 19:6 from the KJV - "And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth."

Also


Luke 1:37: For with God all things are possible.

And


Jer. 32:17 Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:

to which god replies with an affirmative, rhetorical question:

Jer. 32:26 Then came the word of the LORD unto Jeremiah, saying,

32:27 "Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?



I suspect there are quite a few more where these came from.

None of these quotes offend my sense or understanding of what God is, by the way.

[Spectrism]

...If God knows EVERYTHING, including every choice you will make, how can you ever really make your own "choice"?

You may FEEL like you have true free will, but it is just an illusion trumped by God's will...

Yep. One of the reasons I choose NOT to believe in God - you can NOT have free will and an omnicient being at the same time. It's one or the other... for me it's free will.

One other aspect to this... if you have an omnicient (all-knowing) God, who is also omnipotent (capable of doing anything), then that god would be EVIL because of all the suffering he has ALLOWED to happen when he has the power to change it. Besides, the two (omnicience and omnipotence) are at odds with each other - if you can do ANYTHING, then you can change the future... but if you already know the future, then you can't change it... viscious circle of contradiction.


This is like saying that you cannot have a clean place to live and also have waste. It is also like saying that you cannot eat anything without having crap all over your floor. It totally neglects the reality of designed systems wherein waste is handled by disposing of it in a dump. The CREATOR designed a system limited by time and having a disposal system for the waste.

Just because most people choose to go out with the waste does not make the system evil.

[Horn]

I'm failing to find a link between a Grand Universal plan & a functional domestic kitchen, Spectro?

[sirgonzo420]

I was a bit surprised to see how much this topic was discussed in Pike's "Morals & Dogma".

[Horn]

What is the biblical foundation for God's omnipotent and omniscient qualities?


http://motivationalposter.us/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Sacrifice.jpg

Don't get me wrong here guys, I do give my heart to God.

I just prefer to cut out any middle men.