Behold the Rider on the Pale Horse!

[platinumdude]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIWtLAwkdCQ&feature=player_embedded


So what is that? a hoax at 7:43?

[Gangsta99]

WTF is that?

[mightymanx]

The ghost of Mark Anthony and Cleopatra fleeing Egypt in a chariot?

[Cebu_4_2]

Do they even have horses in Egypt?

[sirgonzo420]

It's a reflection of the fire.

[k-os]

That was creepy!

[platinumdude]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbEwWUSvYRo


I found another one on you tube that is bigger.

[Book]

It's a reflection of the fire.



http://www.monstersagogo.com/blog/uploaded_images/ghost-hunters-international-719561.jpg

Some kind of reflection while the camera lens moved. Sure looked weird though. Worth the curiosity. These guys are gonna be on this one.

:D

[sirgonzo420]

I'll admit, it is odd looking.

I'm pretty sure it's some reflection of the fire... you can see the reflections of the streetlights too if you look carefully.

[platinumdude]

I found some originals that weren't edited to point out the anomaly and it's still there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ocyP-mxtfI


The movement looks like a horse galloping.

[Book]

The movement looks like a horse galloping.



Yep. That's what I see.

[sirgonzo420]

just watch it again.

It is a reflection of the fire.

Notice how the "anomaly" mimics the fire?

It also follows the pan of the camera.

Granted, the reflection is reversed (upside down/backwards).

Can't you guys see the reflections of the 3 streetlights too?

I'm picturing the camera as being one with one of those long lenses, and I think the reflection is on the outermost lens.

[Serpo]

Reflection or not ....there it is...

I was watching video coverage of the protests in Egypt when something caught my eye. After rewinding and replaying multiple times I was blown away by what I saw.

www.msnbc.msn.com...

At approximately 10:27 in the video above, you can see what appears to be a skeletal man on horseback, covered in some sort of cloth that is blowing in the wind. What really makes this odd is the green color of the figure, and how it seems to ride through the crowd before the camera cuts away. Here is a picture for those who can't access the video. I recommend watching the video though, for the full effect.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread658761/pg1



'Come!' And I looked up and saw a horse whose color was pale green like a corpse. And Death was the name of its rider, who was followed around by the grave. They were given authority over one-fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword and famine and disease and wild animals." Revelation 6:7-8.

I realize it might be a little hard to imagine. Here's what I see when I watch the video.

[General of Darkness]

This is some serious fricken doom.

[muffin]

DOOOOOOOOOOOOm for breakfast. Helter skelter.

[Serpo]

The ride of the fourth horseman

Revelation 6:7-8 tells us this about the fourth seal: "When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, 'Come and see.' So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him."

The Expositor's Bible Commentary says this about the color of the fourth horse: "'Pale' (chloros) denotes a yellowish green, the light green of a plant, or the paleness of a sick person in contrast to a healthy appearance." Put bluntly, this horse is the color of death.

In Jesus' parallel prophecy in Matthew 24, He explained that in the wake of religious deception, war and famine would come "pestilences" or disease epidemics (verse 7).

The seals have a cumulative effect. False religion causes instability within relationships leading to war. Famine follows war, and when malnourishment occurs and social systems break down, human beings are more susceptible to disease. These seals depict the ferocity of problems unleashed on the world in the lead-up to "the Day of the Lord."

There would be other calamities as well. Jesus also listed in the same context "earthquakes in various places" (verse 7). "Plague" in Scripture denotes not only pestilence but also other calamities in nature that God uses to punish a disobedient humanity. Of course, any such calamities make populations that much riper for the spread of disease epidemics.

The latter part of Revelation 6:8, speaking of all four horsemen, states: "And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth to kill with sword, with hunger, with death and by the beasts of the earth."

By the time the fourth horseman completes his ride, a fourth of earth's inhabitants will experience incredible devastation. The death toll will be unlike any from plague and disease in human history.




http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn53/pestilence.htm



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UKz3GVrHI8&feature=player_embedded




[color=green]Heres a better angle......... ;D

[7th trump]

The whole point is the rider!
"Death" is name of the rider which is no other than satan himself.
Its also written that the 144,000 Elect will be brought up to death. Well thats describing satan as "death" again.
Many beleive that 144,000 will die a horrible death.....................wrong!
All its saying is that the 144,000 will be brought up in front of the devil, satan, and will witness against him. Heck these 144,000 Elect have power over satan and his 10,000 angels.
satan is warned that if he harms just one hair on Elect his time is shortened on earth play acting as Christ.
These 144,000 are not tempted in that hour of temptation. They look at this spurious messiah for what it is, an abomination!
Mark these words as its written in the Bible. When the fake christ appears and the world whores after this fake the 144,000 Elect will be spitting in the face of this fake christ almost to the point of committing the unpardonable sin. They are not scared of satan, hes an abomination!

[Horn]

They are not scared of satan, hes an abomination!

Or oncoming traffic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDjfk_e-xGM

[Awoke]

Reflection or not ....there it is...

I was watching video coverage of the protests in Egypt when something caught my eye. After rewinding and replaying multiple times I was blown away by what I saw.

www.msnbc.msn.com...

At approximately 10:27 in the video above, you can see what appears to be a skeletal man on horseback, covered in some sort of cloth that is blowing in the wind. What really makes this odd is the green color of the figure, and how it seems to ride through the crowd before the camera cuts away. Here is a picture for those who can't access the video. I recommend watching the video though, for the full effect.


Unfortunately in this case, that link goes to a live-feed video, which is what I normally would want, but I can't see the horseman on the live feed. And of course Youtube is blocked here.

[sirgonzo420]

Reflection or not ....there it is...

I was watching video coverage of the protests in Egypt when something caught my eye. After rewinding and replaying multiple times I was blown away by what I saw.

www.msnbc.msn.com...

At approximately 10:27 in the video above, you can see what appears to be a skeletal man on horseback, covered in some sort of cloth that is blowing in the wind. What really makes this odd is the green color of the figure, and how it seems to ride through the crowd before the camera cuts away. Here is a picture for those who can't access the video. I recommend watching the video though, for the full effect.


Unfortunately in this case, that link goes to a live-feed video, which is what I normally would want, but I can't see the horseman on the live feed. And of course Youtube is blocked here.


You're just missing an odd looking reflection.

It's really pretty plain to see that it is a reflection; the "horseman" follows the panning of the camera, and the three streetlights in the video show reflections as well, which also move with the panning of the camera at the same rate.

The reflection is on either the outermost lens of the camera, or is on a window in front of the camera.

[bellevuebully]

The whole point is the rider!
"Death" is name of the rider which is no other than satan himself.
Its also written that the 144,000 Elect will be brought up to death. Well thats describing satan as "death" again.
Many beleive that 144,000 will die a horrible death.....................wrong!
All its saying is that the 144,000 will be brought up in front of the devil, satan, and will witness against him. Heck these 144,000 Elect have power over satan and his 10,000 angels.
satan is warned that if he harms just one hair on Elect his time is shortened on earth play acting as Christ.
These 144,000 are not tempted in that hour of temptation. They look at this spurious messiah for what it is, an abomination!
Mark these words as its written in the Bible. When the fake christ appears and the world whores after this fake the 144,000 Elect will be spitting in the face of this fake christ almost to the point of committing the unpardonable sin. They are not scared of satan, hes an abomination!




I find it a little ironic 7th, when I read comments from you with specifics on many of the doctrines of the bible and also read comments you have made to others on this site such as:

« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2011, 09:07:47 PM »
7th trump
I really dont know how you can miscontrue the Bible.

found here:

http://gold-silver.us/forum/religion-and-philosophy/why-did-god-create-(and-still-perpetuate)-evil/.



The reason I find it ironic is that while lifting yourself up as some kind of great bible scholar, it is obvious that everything you say, right to the letter, is a direct reiteration of the teaching of "Dr" Arnold Murray of the Sheppards chapel. It's literally word for word. I have my opinions on Dr. Murray which I will not post here. Members here are smart enough to research that on their own and make up their own minds.

I know that you think I, and all the other professing Christians here are heretics for following historic orthodox doctrine, and that you and the rest of Mr Murrays adherents are the only ones with knowledge unto salvation, and that is just fine. As I have stated before on this site, we all make our own beds. That is a choice God has given us. But I would feel it irresponsible and unfair to other members here to not point out the fact that you have adopted 100% of what you speak of from a very controversial source while strutting around claiming such high and infallible spiritual insight.

If I am incorrect in my assumptions and you have gathered most of this on your own, I deeply apologize and would extend to you an encouragement to re-assess what the bible says on many of the topics you have laid out.

[Twisted Titan]

Its the Green Goblin!!

Somebody call spider man ASAP.

[Hatha Sunahara]

I generally run what I see and hear from the mainstream media through a credibility filter.

What I see here is escalating violence, and jockeying for control. I also see a hidden agenda that is about to be revealed.

We do not know what the agenda of the US Government is. Do they want Mubarak to leave, or do they want to teach the world a lesson about what happens to unruly and disobedient slaves who rebel against their masters. What runs through my mind is one of the last scenes in Spartacus after the Romans (Crassus) put down the slave revolt and we see a road that is lined with crucifixes as far as the eye can see.

What we hope is in the balance. Will we see the will of the people triumph, or will we all (globally) be crushed with the images of the triumph of oppression? I doubt that the situation is getting out of control for the oppressors. We do not know what their agenda is, but we will find out shortly. If we start seeing mass violence, and the media hyping up how bloody it is, this will put an end to the blooming revolutions in other countries. If we see Mubarak giving in and announcing he will leave power within the next 72 hours or sooner, then we will see a successful, relatively non-violent piece of social engineering by the State Department and other CFR driven organizations in the US Government that lead us into an air-tight totalitarian NWO later.

For now, I'm not getting my hopes up about any outcome. I wish the Egyptian people well, and I hope they do not become the human sacrifices for the lessons the elite want to teach all of us.


Hatha

[Awoke]

The whole point is the rider!
"Death" is name of the rider which is no other than satan himself.
Its also written that the 144,000 Elect will be brought up to death. Well thats describing satan as "death" again.
Many beleive that 144,000 will die a horrible death.....................wrong!
All its saying is that the 144,000 will be brought up in front of the devil, satan, and will witness against him. Heck these 144,000 Elect have power over satan and his 10,000 angels.
satan is warned that if he harms just one hair on Elect his time is shortened on earth play acting as Christ.
These 144,000 are not tempted in that hour of temptation. They look at this spurious messiah for what it is, an abomination!
Mark these words as its written in the Bible. When the fake christ appears and the world whores after this fake the 144,000 Elect will be spitting in the face of this fake christ almost to the point of committing the unpardonable sin. They are not scared of satan, hes an abomination!




I find it a little ironic 7th, when I read comments from you with specifics on many of the doctrines of the bible and also read comments you have made to others on this site such as:

« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2011, 09:07:47 PM »
7th trump
I really dont know how you can miscontrue the Bible.

found here:

http://gold-silver.us/forum/religion-and-philosophy/why-did-god-create-(and-still-perpetuate)-evil/.



The reason I find it ironic is that while lifting yourself up as some kind of great bible scholar, it is obvious that everything you say, right to the letter, is a direct reiteration of the teaching of "Dr" Arnold Murray of the Sheppards chapel. It's literally word for word. I have my opinions on Dr. Murray which I will not post here. Members here are smart enough to research that on their own and make up their own minds.

I know that you think I, and all the other professing Christians here are heretics for following historic orthodox doctrine, and that you and the rest of Mr Murrays adherents are the only ones with knowledge unto salvation, and that is just fine. As I have stated before on this site, we all make our own beds. That is a choice God has given us. But I would feel it irresponsible and unfair to other members here to not point out the fact that you have adopted 100% of what you speak of from a very controversial source while strutting around claiming such high and infallible spiritual insight.

If I am incorrect in my assumptions and you have gathered most of this on your own, I deeply apologize and would extend to you an encouragement to re-assess what the bible says on many of the topics you have laid out.


I would be interested to know this too. You have never been forth-coming in regards to the specifics of your faith or denomination.

If the "Sheppards Chapel" is indeed the root of you faith, I would remind you of a few things:
A) He prophesied that the apocalypes would start in the Alaskan Penninsula sometime in teh 80's, which did not happen.
and

B) Matthew 7:15 - "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves"

C) Matthew 24:11 - And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many.

D) Matthew 24:24 - For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect.

[7th trump]

The whole point is the rider!
"Death" is name of the rider which is no other than satan himself.
Its also written that the 144,000 Elect will be brought up to death. Well thats describing satan as "death" again.
Many beleive that 144,000 will die a horrible death.....................wrong!
All its saying is that the 144,000 will be brought up in front of the devil, satan, and will witness against him. Heck these 144,000 Elect have power over satan and his 10,000 angels.
satan is warned that if he harms just one hair on Elect his time is shortened on earth play acting as Christ.
These 144,000 are not tempted in that hour of temptation. They look at this spurious messiah for what it is, an abomination!
Mark these words as its written in the Bible. When the fake christ appears and the world whores after this fake the 144,000 Elect will be spitting in the face of this fake christ almost to the point of committing the unpardonable sin. They are not scared of satan, hes an abomination!




I find it a little ironic 7th, when I read comments from you with specifics on many of the doctrines of the bible and also read comments you have made to others on this site such as:

« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2011, 09:07:47 PM »
7th trump
I really dont know how you can miscontrue the Bible.

found here:

http://gold-silver.us/forum/religion-and-philosophy/why-did-god-create-(and-still-perpetuate)-evil/.



The reason I find it ironic is that while lifting yourself up as some kind of great bible scholar, it is obvious that everything you say, right to the letter, is a direct reiteration of the teaching of "Dr" Arnold Murray of the Sheppards chapel. It's literally word for word. I have my opinions on Dr. Murray which I will not post here. Members here are smart enough to research that on their own and make up their own minds.

I know that you think I, and all the other professing Christians here are heretics for following historic orthodox doctrine, and that you and the rest of Mr Murrays adherents are the only ones with knowledge unto salvation, and that is just fine. As I have stated before on this site, we all make our own beds. That is a choice God has given us. But I would feel it irresponsible and unfair to other members here to not point out the fact that you have adopted 100% of what you speak of from a very controversial source while strutting around claiming such high and infallible spiritual insight.

If I am incorrect in my assumptions and you have gathered most of this on your own, I deeply apologize and would extend to you an encouragement to re-assess what the bible says on many of the topics you have laid out.


I would be interested to know this too. You have never been forth-coming in regards to the specifics of your faith or denomination.

If the "Sheppards Chapel" is indeed the root of you faith (It is), I would remind you of a few things:
A) He prophesied that the apocalypes would start in the Alaskan Penninsula sometime in teh 80's, which did not happen.
and (Yes, there are a lot people that say that very same thing about Murray. However, Murray teaches word for word and documents what is taught word for word with other Books of the Bible. Everything fits like a glove which is not refuteable. Murray has since changed his tune to that of watchmen.
Also, most critics of Chapel are not followers of Murray. It takes some time to understand fully whats being said in the Bible. Its not something you can pick up on overnight. I've been watching Murrays teachings now for over 5 years and I have to say he knows that Bible inside and out.)B) Matthew 7:15 - "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves"
( Arnold for one is not a raven wolf. He admits hes not perfect, but he put his best into what he does and hes not one to dismiss a part of the Bible because another part disagree's. Arnold is very humble and tells you why ceertain parts seem to disagree. Arnold takes no money for what he does. He says theres a tithe box in the back of the chapel if you want to tithe, but he never begs or cry's for money.)C) Matthew 24:11 - And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many.
(False prophets are none other than those who choose to deceive and lead astray. Arnold does no such thing)
D) Matthew 24:24 - For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect.
(yeah these false christs are just people claiming to be christians saying many things like the rapture theory for instance. Arnold doesnt beleive in the rapture theory and goes into various scriptures to prove why its wrong. basically what people are sayiong about the rapture is they cannot understand the 7th trump as the consumation of this earth age. Some just think they are going to float into the sky to meet Christ in the clouds. Arnold takes everything back into the Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew so nothing is mistranslated.)

[chad]

It takes some time to understand fully whats being said in the Bible. Its not something you can pick up on overnight.

this sounds like percival saying "Esoteric mystical Kabbalistic Judaism is very difficult like that and takes a lot of time to understand."

[Serpo]

It takes some time to understand fully whats being said in the Bible. Its not something you can pick up on overnight.

this sounds like percival saying "Esoteric mystical Kabbalistic Judaism is very difficult like that and takes a lot of time to understand."


Like 2000yrs + and counting....

[sirgonzo420]

It takes some time to understand fully whats being said in the Bible. Its not something you can pick up on overnight.

this sounds like percival saying "Esoteric mystical Kabbalistic Judaism is very difficult like that and takes a lot of time to understand."


They are both right.

If one really wants to study the bible, they must do so in hebrew and greek.

The kabbalistic approach to the bible is complex.

Jewish mystics have held that there are four layers of meaning to the bible. They are: the plain meaning, the symbolic meaning, the allegorical meaning, and the esoteric meaning. All four meanings are different but exist simultaneously, and all layers must be understood before one can truly understand even the plain text, according to kabbalists.

Hebrew is complex, and there is a lot to it. Every single letter has mulitiple levels of meaning.

[Book]

The kabbalistic approach to the bible is complex.

Jewish mystics have held that there are four layers of meaning to the bible. They are: the plain meaning, the symbolic meaning, the allegorical meaning, and the esoteric meaning. All four meanings are different but exist simultaneously, and all layers must be understood before one can truly understand even the plain text, according to kabbalists.

Hebrew is complex, and there is a lot to it. Every single letter has multiple levels of meaning.



You really know a lot about this.

;)

[7th trump]

It takes some time to understand fully whats being said in the Bible. Its not something you can pick up on overnight.

this sounds like percival saying "Esoteric mystical Kabbalistic Judaism is very difficult like that and takes a lot of time to understand."

No Chad!
What I'm saying is that to understand the Bible to a point like that of Arnold does and knows you need some genuine time spent in the Book and researching passages back to their Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic languages. Todays English is not the same as it is was back when the translaters translated these languages to English.
Arnold does a fantastic job of taking words and passages back to its original languages so you can see the true meaning of these passages that appear to contradict themselves.
And Arnold does this all with a ticker at the bottom of the screen so you know exactly what is being read to you.
Arnold does most of the work for you and you can check him if you want. He even tells you to check it out yourself. Arnold isnt hiding anything from anybody, in fact, he doesnt like judging those who are critics.
I'm a bit surprised by some of you. Arnold is a war vet and promotes much of what this site stands for. He says to carry a gun and protect yourself because God say thats what you are to do. Even says to save and stay out of debt. If you want to buy a house.........save up if you can. Keep plenty of food in the house.
Hes the one that researched Kagan when she was up for Supreme Court. Kagan is a kenite jew name and shes from the family of Cain the first murderer.
Shes a tare among the wheat!

[ximmy]

I wouldn't be surprised if angelic beings were watching, even participating in the events there, sometimes even protecting certain individuals.

[sirgonzo420]

The kabbalistic approach to the bible is complex.

Jewish mystics have held that there are four layers of meaning to the bible. They are: the plain meaning, the symbolic meaning, the allegorical meaning, and the esoteric meaning. All four meanings are different but exist simultaneously, and all layers must be understood before one can truly understand even the plain text, according to kabbalists.

Hebrew is complex, and there is a lot to it. Every single letter has multiple levels of meaning.



You really know a lot about this.

;)



I don't know about you, but I like to know my enemy.

;)





and since I was a child I've studied the bible and various languages, of which hebrew is one.

And not, I'm not, nor is anybody in my family, jewish (and I've should know... I've studied my geneaology back hundred and hundreds of years), but I have studied and do study jewry/judaism/their (generally sneaky, attorneyish) ways.

Jewish people are probably the most complex people on the face of the earth, and hebrew is a complex language (letters are also numbers, and words with the same value can be seen as interchanging, which can make things quite interesting...)

[Heimdhal]

The kabbalistic approach to the bible is complex.

Jewish mystics have held that there are four layers of meaning to the bible. They are: the plain meaning, the symbolic meaning, the allegorical meaning, and the esoteric meaning. All four meanings are different but exist simultaneously, and all layers must be understood before one can truly understand even the plain text, according to kabbalists.

Hebrew is complex, and there is a lot to it. Every single letter has multiple levels of meaning.



You really know a lot about this.

;)



I don't know about you, but I like to know my enemy.

;)


So what you're saying is.... jews are like onions?

[7th trump]

I wouldn't be surprised if angelic beings were watching, even participating in the events there, sometimes even protecting certain individuals.

The 144,000 Elect are here and born of the bag waters like everyone else in the flesh.

[sirgonzo420]

The kabbalistic approach to the bible is complex.

Jewish mystics have held that there are four layers of meaning to the bible. They are: the plain meaning, the symbolic meaning, the allegorical meaning, and the esoteric meaning. All four meanings are different but exist simultaneously, and all layers must be understood before one can truly understand even the plain text, according to kabbalists.

Hebrew is complex, and there is a lot to it. Every single letter has multiple levels of meaning.



You really know a lot about this.

;)



I don't know about you, but I like to know my enemy.

;)


So what you're saying is.... jews are like onions?


Yep, except THEY cry when you cut THEM.


;D


disclaimer: I've never actually cut a jew, so I'm just guessing. For all I know when you cut them you hear a hissing noise and they deflate!

[bellevuebully]

7th, I saw your response above and I respect that you have your own opinion on the matter. I'm not trying to tear you down, so I hope you don't take my post too personally.

I have always described myself as a big-picture person. I've related to the phrase 'you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows' on this site before (it was a sig line from Gim1). When I come across a guy like Murray preaching stuff that is so far from orthodox Christianity, I ask myself a few questions...

1. Who, in the whole history of the Christian church has preached such things as fundamentals of Christian theology?

As far as I can reckon, I would say none. These are theories that are exclusively formed and espoused by Murray, as far as I can tell.

2. Does it make sense that a revelation that can lead to salvation would be revealed only in the last couple of decades? Has the truth of the gospel been kept from us until an Arnold Murray, or Charles T. Russell, or Ellen White, or Joseph Smith finally ‘figured it all out’ by having had a new revelation that enlightens us with new information?

I would say the church, via the Spirit, has faithfully carried the message down through the ages (they did provide the text from which Murray is reading), and has all the while saved. These 'latter day' revelations claiming ‘no one else knows anything’ disregard the history of Christianity. Many false teachers follow this pattern. Russell, Smith, White, and Murray are prime examples of this. They all claim to be the 'remnant', and every other professing Christian is lost and mired in heresy. Why do you think the Lord Jesus would operate in that manner? Were all of the early Christians wrong? Why is this ‘truth’ only being revealed now, exclusively through Murray? He is in essence saying that those who provided him with the book that he is teaching from, all had it wrong. Seems very contradictory. And lastly, the 'age of apostacy' is certainly described as a latter day event......so why would orthodox, historical teaching be suspect. I would contend it is 'new revelations' that are.



You also mention Murray’s pedigree above. Don’t you find it odd that there has been such a controversy over his lack of proof of any theological doctorate? He does refer to himself as a Dr. but apparently refuses to produce any proof of such. He has also proven a failure in prophetic vision as per his statements regarding the beginning of Armageddon. Again, he follows the likes of Russell, Smith and White.

I want to be very clear that my personal motivation in my original post stands…to alert others to what I think are very controversial and potentially dangerous teachings, and not to launch a personal attack against you. I don’t intend to debate the many specifics beyond what I’ve already mentioned about Murray. Others reading here are clever, and hopefully wise enough to research him and figure these things out for themselves.

[chad]

It takes some time to understand fully whats being said in the Bible. Its not something you can pick up on overnight.

this sounds like percival saying "Esoteric mystical Kabbalistic Judaism is very difficult like that and takes a lot of time to understand."

No Chad!
What I'm saying is that to understand the Bible to a point like that of Arnold does and knows you need some genuine time spent in the Book and researching passages back to their Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic languages. Todays English is not the same as it is was back when the translaters translated these languages to English.
Arnold does a fantastic job of taking words and passages back to its original languages so you can see the true meaning of these passages that appear to contradict themselves.
And Arnold does this all with a ticker at the bottom of the screen so you know exactly what is being read to you.
Arnold does most of the work for you and you can check him if you want. He even tells you to check it out yourself. Arnold isnt hiding anything from anybody, in fact, he doesnt like judging those who are critics.
I'm a bit surprised by some of you. Arnold is a war vet and promotes much of what this site stands for. He says to carry a gun and protect yourself because God say thats what you are to do. Even says to save and stay out of debt. If you want to buy a house.........save up if you can. Keep plenty of food in the house.
Hes the one that researched Kagan when she was up for Supreme Court. Kagan is a kenite jew name and shes from the family of Cain the first murderer.
Shes a tare among the wheat!


alright then, i can live with that.

[G2Rad]

If one really wants to study the bible, they must do so in hebrew and greek.


I'VE heard that many times. Save yourself money and time and don't beliefe that. My hebrew and Greek Bibles collect dust. KJV is the purest word of God on Earth today imho

[7th trump]

7th, I saw your response above and I respect that you have your own opinion on the matter. I'm not trying to tear you down, so I hope you don't take my post too personally.

I have always described myself as a big-picture person. I've related to the phrase 'you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows' on this site before (it was a sig line from Gim1). When I come across a guy like Murray preaching stuff that is so far from orthodox Christianity, I ask myself a few questions...

1. Who, in the whole history of the Christian church has preached such things as fundamentals of Christian theology?

As far as I can reckon, I would say none. These are theories that are exclusively formed and espoused by Murray, as far as I can tell.

2. Does it make sense that a revelation that can lead to salvation would be revealed only in the last couple of decades? Has the truth of the gospel been kept from us until an Arnold Murray, or Charles T. Russell, or Ellen White, or Joseph Smith finally ‘figured it all out’ by having had a new revelation that enlightens us with new information?

I would say the church, via the Spirit, has faithfully carried the message down through the ages (they did provide the text from which Murray is reading), and has all the while saved. These 'latter day' revelations claiming ‘no one else knows anything’ disregard the history of Christianity. Many false teachers follow this pattern. Russell, Smith, White, and Murray are prime examples of this. They all claim to be the 'remnant', and every other professing Christian is lost and mired in heresy. Why do you think the Lord Jesus would operate in that manner? Were all of the early Christians wrong? Why is this ‘truth’ only being revealed now, exclusively through Murray? He is in essence saying that those who provided him with the book that he is teaching from, all had it wrong. Seems very contradictory. And lastly, the 'age of apostacy' is certainly described as a latter day event......so why would orthodox, historical teaching be suspect. I would contend it is 'new revelations' that are.



You also mention Murray’s pedigree above. Don’t you find it odd that there has been such a controversy over his lack of proof of any theological doctorate? He does refer to himself as a Dr. but apparently refuses to produce any proof of such. He has also proven a failure in prophetic vision as per his statements regarding the beginning of Armageddon. Again, he follows the likes of Russell, Smith and White.

I want to be very clear that my personal motivation in my original post stands…to alert others to what I think are very controversial and potentially dangerous teachings, and not to launch a personal attack against you. I don’t intend to debate the many specifics beyond what I’ve already mentioned about Murray. Others reading here are clever, and hopefully wise enough to research him and figure these things out for themselves.


If the shoe fits Belle!
Do you think God is looking for a PHD individual or someone who is willing to hear the word of God and let God guide them instead of a trainable goon letting in traditions of man and passing them on?
Does not God say " he who has ears to hear and eyes to see"?

The reason Arnold is so popular across the globe is because he's not injecting age old traditions of men into the Word. Arnold uses all the Books to prove they are all correct as each Book backs other Books. This is what Arnold calls "documentation". Theres more telling about the end times in Luke than there is in Revelation. Revelation is basically an outline, but the details can be found in Mathew, Luke and a host of others.
Also, have you ever thought that during the last 1000 years or so theres only been the churches that pass on the word. Look at all the technology we have at our disposal today that wasnt around then and ask yourself what are the chances that a church picks out what it wants to see and hear and pass that on down the ages as the truth to the masses (IE: Lutheran, Catholic, ect). It turns into tradition and the sheeple eat it up as gospel because nobody is really digging into the word. I havent seen any church like the Chapel that teaches the way Arnold does, no denomination, just the Word). All I have ever seen in main stream churches is praising the lord and passing the hat.
All Arnold does is bring out the truth by "documenting" the Books. He literally stands in front of his congregation and reads from the Bible instead of ratchet jawing one verse for a minute and asking for hand outs for the other 59 minutes.
Arnold main concern is feeding the sheep. And that food is the Word.
I havent yet seen one main stream church explain what 666 is, but arnold does and he documents it so theres no second guessing.

[sirgonzo420]

If one really wants to study the bible, they must do so in hebrew and greek.


I'VE heard that many times. Save yourself money and time and don't beliefe that. My hebrew and Greek Bibles collect dust. KJV is the purest word of God on Earth today imho



I don't think the KJV is the "purest word of God on Earth"... the original tongues are superior if you want what was actually written, but the KJV is the best you can get in english.


Also, I'm not christian (I'm not a jew either, lol), but I do study the bible sometimes for fun (I'm weird, but that's why I'm here :) ).

[G2Rad]

If one really wants to study the bible, they must do so in hebrew and greek.


I'VE heard that many times. Save yourself money and time and don't beliefe that. My hebrew and Greek Bibles collect dust. KJV is the purest word of God on Earth today imho



I don't think the KJV is the "purest word of God on Earth"...

I was surptised too. But it is difficult to argue with facts. Sara is dead, barried for 2000years in the land of gentiles. These are our times, time of Rebekka. Many a time firstborn has to wait for the jounger (us). Jacob loved Rachel first, but got Leah before Rachel. When I studied greek, hebrew, plus three more languaches Iknow, and compared to KJV, kjv turned out to be true living word of God. Do not go for dead & blind hebrew. This is OUR time with God. We are the
ougly but lucky sister who got to merry first. Jews are choosen, but they are second in line after us.

[G2Rad]

Sorry for the spelling errors. I am typing from my ipod.

[bellevuebully]

Do you think God is looking for a PHD


PhD not required. Honesty though is.



instead of a trainable goon


You are inferring that every person serving Christ outside of Murray's chapel is a trainable goon? That is a vicious thing to say about the body of Christ, imo.
You infer everyone outside of Murray, and by Murray's guidance is unqualified to comprehend the gospel. That is an afront to the work of the Holy Spirit.




The reason Arnold is so popular across the globe is because he's not injecting age old traditions of men into the Word.


Jesus never said that preaching the Truth would garner popularity. In fact, he said it would do the opposite.
Again, you infer that everyone outside of Murray, and under Murray's guidance practices tradition, and not faith in Jesus Christ.




Look at all the technology we have at our disposal today that wasnt around then and ask yourself what are the chances that a church picks out what it wants to see and hear and pass that on down the ages as the truth to the masses (IE: Lutheran, Catholic, ect). It turns into tradition and the sheeple eat it up as gospel because nobody is really digging into the word.


Certainly, man has been errant in the handling of the gospel in many cases, but it always was and continues to be the role of the Holy Spirit in taking and maintaining the integrity of the Gospel message from the ressurection to today and beyond, it was never dependant on man.
You infer that only Murray, and those under Murray's guidance are able to do this. That diminishes greatly the power of the Spirit.



I havent seen any church like the Chapel that teaches the way Arnold does, no denomination, just the Word)


There is no church that does. He has his own 'denomination'. He just doesn't call it one. He calls it the Sheppard's Chapel and it exclusively based on his interpretation of the word.



All I have ever seen in main stream churches is praising the lord and passing the hat.


There is good, moderate and bad in all things, including the body. Read the letter to the 7 churches. You know where to find them. Christ never said the church would be perfect, but a broadbased attack on the body of Christ is unbalanced and spiritually unhealthy.



Arnold main concern is feeding the sheep. And that food is the Word.
I havent yet seen one main stream church explain what 666 is, but arnold does and he documents it so theres no second guessing.



You have no way of knowing what his concerns are, but you can make some pretty accurate deductions about the authenticity of his message when you look at the big picture. Unfortunately, you avoided discussing any of the points I raised in my post.

Instead, you have shown that you believe that Christianity outside of Mr. Murray is bunk and that only he is qualified to convey insight into the gospel message and the biblical text. That, 7th, is cult indoctrination. It was done the same by those I have mentioned before...Smith, Russell, White, in addition to many others. You are a pretty smart guy, but I would have to believe that smarter people than you have been fooled by a charleton.

I truly wish you the best 7th, I have no more really to say on this issue for concern that you perceive my thoughts on Mr. Murrays teachings and actions to be of a personal matter with you.

[7th trump]

Do you think God is looking for a PHD


PhD not required. Honesty though is.
(yes it is so lets be honest shall we?)


instead of a trainable goon


You are inferring that every person serving Christ outside of Murray's chapel is a trainable goon? (Nope I never said that. You are saying that. I said in reference to God picking and choosing who He will to do His work. Just like the 144,000 Elect are already choosen to wirness against the anti-christ) That is a vicious thing to say about the body of Christ, imo. (It is wrong to say so why are you putting that into my mouth? I never said that........you are)You infer everyone outside of Murray, and by Murray's guidance is unqualified to comprehend the gospel. That is an afront to the work of the Holy Spirit. (again you are saying this not me....please go back and comprehend what was said in reference. Stay on the subject and understand the object of discussion)



The reason Arnold is so popular across the globe is because he's not injecting age old traditions of men into the Word.


Jesus never said that preaching the Truth would garner popularity. In fact, he said it would do the opposite.
Again, you infer that everyone outside of Murray, and under Murray's guidance practices tradition, and not faith in Jesus Christ. (Again you are putting words in my mouth. Furthermore, if you were of anybody of faith you'd know and understand that you have to do the will of God to attain salvation......not just beleiving in Christ. A pew sitting church goer of 50 years doesnt get into paradice if that person takes the number of the beast. A beleiver of christ doesnt get either if that person takes the number of the beast. And you'd know not to judge a person which I never said I followed Murray. It was you that came out and said that........I agreed to your assumption. I now know your hidden agenda...........)



Look at all the technology we have at our disposal today that wasnt around then and ask yourself what are the chances that a church picks out what it wants to see and hear and pass that on down the ages as the truth to the masses (IE: Lutheran, Catholic, ect). It turns into tradition and the sheeple eat it up as gospel because nobody is really digging into the word.


Certainly, man has been errant in the handling of the gospel in many cases, but it always was and continues to be the role of the Holy Spirit in taking and maintaining the integrity of the Gospel message from the ressurection to today and beyond, it was never dependant on man. (so just what instrument do you think God uses to keep the integrity of the Gospel? Why then Moses for the Law?)You infer that only Murray, and those under Murray's guidance are able to do this. That diminishes greatly the power of the Spirit. (no and again you are putting words in my mouth. I said Murray understands the importance of taking scripture back to its original language so if any translation was lost it would be found and reapplied correctly. That practice has pulled Arnold way ahead of others that I havent heard of before until you mentioned them..........sorry if you dont agree to the Word of God (because thats just what your problem is, not being like a child and listening to the God Himself)......maybe you should reassess your doubtfulness of what you think you understand and shed your ego. The world is going to whore after the fake messiah just as its written is going to happen and you want to call Gods Word a lie?)

I havent seen any church like the Chapel that teaches the way Arnold does, no denomination, just the Word)


There is no church that does. He has his own 'denomination'. (Really........ so tell us all just what that denomination is. I'm all ears.) He just doesn't call it one. He calls it the Sheppard's Chapel (the chapel is just the name of his church thats all nothing else) and it exclusively based on his interpretation of the word.



All I have ever seen in main stream churches is praising the lord and passing the hat.


There is good, moderate and bad in all things, including the body. Read the letter to the 7 churches. You know where to find them. Christ never said the church would be perfect, but a broadbased attack on the body of Christ is unbalanced and spiritually unhealthy. ( Arnold doesnt attack any church, in fact, Arnold gets letters from viewers who ask if they should go to a particular church they are not confortable in. Arnold always says to try and attend because there is probably a purpose.
But you will never hear Arnold begging on air or anywhere for money or passing the hat. Hes very much against that practice.)


Arnold main concern is feeding the sheep. And that food is the Word.
I havent yet seen one main stream church explain what 666 is, but arnold does and he documents it so theres no second guessing.



You have no way of knowing what his concerns are (sure I do because Arnold tells you right up front) , but you can make some pretty accurate deductions about the authenticity of his message when you look at the big picture. Unfortunately, you avoided discussing any of the points I raised in my post. (I haven't avoided any of your points. Its you avoiding my answers to your poised and premeditated questions. You so far havent yet acknowledged that Arnold speaks the truth. Yet all I see from you is you attacking and judging Arnold based on your impression of someone elses opinion of Arnold.)
Instead, you have shown that you believe that Christianity outside of Mr. Murray is bunk (No I havent. You keep saying that I do) and that only he is qualified to convey insight into the gospel message and the biblical text. (Nope, never said anythinmg like that at all. In fact if you read my posts i never say anything in reference to Arnold)That, 7th, is cult indoctrination. (Really?.........Coming from you it doesnt surprise me that you are breaking a commandment that shall not bear false witness by saying things I never said)It was done the same by those I have mentioned before...Smith, Russell, White, in addition to many others. (Theres your problem. You've unconsiously grouped Arnold with these peole and render a verdict without merit)You are a pretty smart guy, but I would have to believe that smarter people than you have been fooled by a charleton. (if you think Arnold is a charleton because he goes the extra mile that I have yet to see any mainstream church do when interpreting the so be it.............theres nothing anybody can do for you)I truly wish you the best 7th, I have no more really to say on this issue for concern that you perceive my thoughts on Mr. Murrays teachings and actions to be of a personal matter with you.

[Awoke]

I admit that this thread is the first I have heard of the Sheppards Chapel so I abviously am no expert.

7th, you keep bringing up how Murray never asks for money. Who cares about money? This is a battle for the salvation of souls. Satan doesn't care about money, he cares about leading people away from Christ and the true word of God.
(I don't mean to infer that Murray is doing the work of satan, I'm just saying that in a worst case scenerio, if he was, he doesn't care about money)

I have done a small amount of interwebz browsing, and came across this arguement:




I can only make a request of you to flee Murray and Shepherd's Chapel as quickly possible.

One of his false teachings is what you just described. The Kenites being descendants of Cain and carrying the Mark of the Beast.

His whole assertion of this false teaching is based on the fact that he believes that Cain's father is Satan. Murray believes and teaches the "Serpent Seed" false doctrine. He asserts that Eve has sex with Satan in the garden and that their offspring was Cain. Because this is a lie, the entire Kenite discussion is moot because it cannot be true because Cain's father was not Satan, but Adam.

His whole philosphy - the entire of the CD that you have listened to is blown out of the water with Genesis 4:1.


"Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, “I have gotten a manchild with the help of the Lord.”
Eve did not have sex with Satan and bear Cain as a result. The Bible negates that VERY clearly. Ergo, Cain did not carry a "mark" of the devil in his body to genetically and spiritually pass on to his offspring.

And ...... NO ONE survived the Great Flood except for Noah, his wife, his three sons, and three daughters-in-law as you have already cited.

The teaching is a classic example of a false teaching. Flee from it.



and this from the same thread:




To save a lot of typing just look at:

http://www.watchman.org/profile/murraypro.htm

...then scroll down to "Doctrines"

"Murray teaches numerous doctrines that are contrary to biblical Christianity, such as his denial of the Trinity, advocation of British Israelism, and the Serpent Seed doctrine."



However www.watchman.org is a filtered site from my computer here, so I can't dig into that site. Looks interesting though.


That thread makes for an interesting read, for anyone that is digging for info on this topic.

[G2Rad]

7th seems to have a talent of contradicting himself :oo-->

here are examples

7th: Death never touched Christ .... Once Christ gave up the ghost
Death is separation from the body. :'(

7th was told that Murray prophesied that the apocalypes would start in the Alaskan Penninsula sometime in the 80's, which did not happen.

here is his reply

7th: Murray teaches word for word and documents what is taught word for word with other Books of the Bible. Everything fits like a glove which is not refuteable.
how is that claim compatible with the actual fact, namely Murray's predicting apocalypes starting in the 80's on Alaska? :'( That is obviously nonsense.

7th: Murray has since changed his tune to that of watchmen.
If Murray keeps changing his tunes, how then "everything Murray teaches fits like a glove which is not refuteable."? :'(, and how it is "word for word with the Bible"? 7th is contradicting himself once again. either one is correct or the other.

7th: I've been watching Murrays teachings now for over 5 years and I have to say he knows that Bible inside and out.)
Satan knows the Bible too. Aramagedon in Alaska in the 80's looks like a case of mocking the Scripture and making fun of blind followers, who put all their trust in the men Murray instead of relying on the Bible.

[7th trump]

7th seems to have a talent of contradicting himself :oo-->

here are examples

7th: Death never touched Christ .... Once Christ gave up the ghost
Death is separation from the body. :'(
(What did the cruxifiction AND RESURECTION accomplish G2rad?
It was prophesized early on in Genesis that satan would bruise the heal of Christ (the cruxifiction, nailed to the cross) and Christ would crush the head of satan (destroy satan, thrown into the firey pit and turned to ashes from within). What do you think "perdition" means when God refers to satan as the son or perdition?) "Death" as used in that context was refering to satan. "death" as you demonstrate you dont know is just another name and role play of satans. Christ defeated death.

7th was told that Murray prophesied that the apocalypes would start in the Alaskan Penninsula sometime in the 80's, which did not happen.

here is his reply

7th: Murray teaches word for word and documents what is taught word for word with other Books of the Bible. Everything fits like a glove which is not refuteable.
how is that claim compatible with the actual fact, namely Murray's predicting apocalypes starting in the 80's on Alaska? :'( That is obviously nonsense.
(whats nonsesne is your opinion. God says it will happen that way. I cant speak for Murrays prediction about the 80's. Why talk to me about it anyway. Why not ask Murray himself.
Anyway the Bible says an army will come across the frozen sea (ever wondered wny America is a superpower and why America purchased Alaska? Think about it for a minute and ask yourself who is really in charge.........man or God Himself.) You really dont understand that America is the land that God speaks of as the land without walled cities and we will always have control of our ports, including Alaska.) I doubt you understand that its also been prophetised that Russia would be taken over by the kenites and they would find the murdered King buried in lime. Well what was found in the basement of an old farmhouse here not to long ago........the remains of Nickolas and his family IN LIME murdered by the kenite jews just as the prophesy said.)
7th: Murray has since changed his tune to that of watchmen.
If Murray keeps changing his tunes, how then "everything Murray teaches fits like a glove which is not refuteable."? :'(, and how it is "word for word with the Bible"? 7th is contradicting himself once again. either one is correct or the other. (You portray Arnold as always changing his tune. Arnold doesnt do that. Arnold in his Bible study doesnt predict anything. Arnold teaches word for word from the Bible. He backs up scripture with other scripture that compliments and fits like a glove with each other. You are injecting lies to set up failure.........why?
Why cant you follow simple English?)7th: I've been watching Murrays teachings now for over 5 years and I have to say he knows that Bible inside and out.)
Satan knows the Bible too. Aramagedon in Alaska in the 80's looks like a case of mocking the Scripture and making fun of blind followers, who put all their trust in the men Murray instead of relying on the Bible.
(I beleive Arnold says Armagedon is fought in the Holy city of Jerusalem. The battle of Hemagodden is fought in Alaska. And i beleive God Himself fights those battles for us.)

[7th trump]

I admit that this thread is the first I have heard of the Sheppards Chapel so I abviously am no expert.

7th, you keep bringing up how Murray never asks for money. Who cares about money? This is a battle for the salvation of souls. Satan doesn't care about money, he cares about leading people away from Christ and the true word of God.
(I don't mean to infer that Murray is doing the work of satan, I'm just saying that in a worst case scenerio, if he was, he doesn't care about money)

I have done a small amount of interwebz browsing, and came across this arguement:




I can only make a request of you to flee Murray and Shepherd's Chapel as quickly possible.

One of his false teachings is what you just described. The Kenites being descendants of Cain and carrying the Mark of the Beast.

His whole assertion of this false teaching is based on the fact that he believes that Cain's father is Satan. Murray believes and teaches the "Serpent Seed" false doctrine. He asserts that Eve has sex with Satan in the garden and that their offspring was Cain. Because this is a lie, the entire Kenite discussion is moot because it cannot be true because Cain's father was not Satan, but Adam.

His whole philosphy - the entire of the CD that you have listened to is blown out of the water with Genesis 4:1.


"Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, “I have gotten a manchild with the help of the Lord.”
Eve did not have sex with Satan and bear Cain as a result. The Bible negates that VERY clearly. Ergo, Cain did not carry a "mark" of the devil in his body to genetically and spiritually pass on to his offspring.

And ...... NO ONE survived the Great Flood except for Noah, his wife, his three sons, and three daughters-in-law as you have already cited.

The teaching is a classic example of a false teaching. Flee from it.



and this from the same thread:




To save a lot of typing just look at:

http://www.watchman.org/profile/murraypro.htm

...then scroll down to "Doctrines"

"Murray teaches numerous doctrines that are contrary to biblical Christianity, such as his denial of the Trinity, advocation of British Israelism, and the Serpent Seed doctrine."



However www.watchman.org is a filtered site from my computer here, so I can't dig into that site. Looks interesting though.
( while you are at it visit Arnolds site and listen to his one hour bible study you can download to get a better idea of who Arnold is. I mean really why take the opinion of a place that beleives in the Rapture which the bases of their arguement against Arnold. Let Arnold explain in detail (scripture) why the rapture is false doctrin.)

That thread makes for an interesting read, for anyone that is digging for info on this topic.

( you really dont know about the seven hidden dynasties that satan uses to conquer civilizations.........money is one of them.)

[Orion]

I am not sure whether this is hilarious, or just plain strange :oo-->

[G2Rad]

Arnold Murray is not a Christian.

His denial of the Trinity imho
1) makes him more like a Muslim
and
2) reveals his total blindness

Was Jesus talking to Himself when He was praying to His Father? :oo-->

Murray's teachings are more like Satan's insult to human intelligence.

Compare Murray's sorry fables to what the Bible actually says about the Trinity:

there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one

It is as clear as it can be :oo--> . Total contradiction to Murray. If you believe the Bible, the Bible will obliterate pitiful mumblings of pretenders, false teachers and liers of all sort.

[k-os]

Also, I'm not christian (I'm not a jew either, lol), but I do study the bible sometimes for fun (I'm weird, but that's why I'm here :) ).


I know! I know! You are a Rasta Man! ;D

[Awoke]

7th, I'm not attacking you, but please:

Dismissing my entire post with the statement that money is one of the 7 dynasties that satan uses against us?

What about all the other content I posted?

[sirgonzo420]

Also, I'm not christian (I'm not a jew either, lol), but I do study the bible sometimes for fun (I'm weird, but that's why I'm here :) ).


I know! I know! You are a Rasta Man! ;D


Hahahaha!

I might as well be, I got the lungs of one!

;D


I don't know a whole lot about Rastafari, other than its adherents like to smoke cannabis and worship an ethiopian leader who died in 1975.

It sounds pretty silly to me (well, except the smoking part ;) ), but not really any sillier than any other major religion.

I prefer a more personal approach to the 'divine'. If anyone really wants to meet and commune with God one-on-one, they might want to eat a few hundred micrograms of LSD, or a few grams of psilocybe mushrooms.

One can read books about God, or one can let God speak for himself! :D

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised in the least to learn that major man-made religions got their start from people consuming certain plants and fungi and then reporting their revelations and divine encounters.

[G2Rad]

7th, I'm not attacking you, but please:


Typically I ignore sucker-punches from 7th like this one: "I really don't know how you can miscontrue the Bible". :oo-->

this time I reacted only because belevubilly (whom I respect) brought that up again.

otherwise I have no desire in "attacking" 7th believes :)

[Awoke]

Well, as much as the bible requires meditation, deep though, reflection and prayer to understand,

I don't believe that there are secondary esoteric hidden meanings that we need people to discern for us.
If so, how would it be different from the jews and the kabbalah/talmud?

No. The scriptures stand alone, and with prayer you will understand them they way God intends you to understand them


Back to Murray, if he is monotheistic, he is anti-Christian.

[7th trump]

Arnold Murray is not a Christian.

His denial of the Trinity imho
1) makes him more like a Muslim
and
2) reveals his total blindness

Was Jesus talking to Himself when He was praying to His Father? :oo-->

Murray's teachings are more like Satan's insult to human intelligence.

Compare Murray's sorry fables to what the Bible actually says about the Trinity:

there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one

It is as clear as it can be :oo--> . Total contradiction to Murray. If you believe the Bible, the Bible will obliterate pitiful mumblings of pretenders, false teachers and liers of all sort.



Hahaha.....you ar not well versed at all are you.
The Father (we know who that is)
The Word......the Word became flesh and walked among us (Emanuel, Jesus Christ!) Just what do you think Emanuel means G2rad?
The Holy Ghost.....Arnold uses Holy Spirit. "Spirit" out of respect.

Arnold agrees with the Bible.
Heres the chapel statement of Faith concerning the trinity and Godhead

The Trinity or Godhead

I teach YHVH ("I Am That I Am" and Hebrew for the Sacred Name of God), Yahshua (Hebrew for God's Saviour Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. When you speak the Truth it is the Holy Spirit manifesting Himself through you. Matthew 10:20 explicitly says "For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." The meaning, of course, refers to the Holy Spirit as in Mark 13:11 which notes, "but when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do you premeditate; but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye; for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost (Spirit)." I make no apology for teaching the Godhead in this manner, and I certainly do not need an endorsement or approval or further interpretation of my words from any man or group of research witch hunters.


Also, I have never taught that men were little gods. It would be a lie for someone to say so. I do teach all souls were created by our Father. A Christian that would not teach this fact would have a big problem with Scripture. Example: Jeremiah 1:5 says, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Another example: Ephesians 1:4 says, "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world."



Recommended additional study lectures on audio CD:

#30574, "Nature of God, El Shaddai
#30417, "Elect"

[G2Rad]

Well, as much as the bible requires meditation, deep though, reflection and prayer to understand,

I don't believe that there are secondary esoteric hidden meanings that we need people to discern for us.
If so, how would it be different from the jews and the kabbalah/talmud?

No. The scriptures stand alone, and with prayer you will understand them they way God intends you to understand them


Back to Murray, if he is monotheistic, he is anti-Christian.


7th says that we are too stupid to understand the Bible without Murray, but the Bible says that that is a lie, and even a child can understand it:

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou [Timothy] hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

[7th trump]

7th, I'm not attacking you, but please:

Dismissing my entire post with the statement that money is one of the 7 dynasties that satan uses against us?

What about all the other content I posted?




This might help in answering some of your questions.


Serpent Seed

What about teaching Serpent Seed? I make no apology for teaching the Word of God. In Matthew 13, our Lord and Saviour explains the Parable of the Sower directly to His disciples. He is very explicit about exactly who the sower of the bad seed really is. Matthew 13:37-39 states, "He (Jesus) answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; the enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels."




Let no one tell you Christ was speaking in a parable here for He was carefully explaining to His disciples the real meaning of the parable He had previously spoken to the multitude. He talked with them in private, and He used language that a child could understand. Christ's teaching of the seed of the devil (or serpent) was nothing new, it was taught from the beginning of Scripture - Genesis.




In Genesis 3:15 God is speaking to the serpent, "and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shall bruise his heel." The bruising of the heel took place when Christ was nailed to the Cross. And finally, for those who still want further proof as to who the serpent really is; we read in Revelation 12:9, "and the great Dragon was cast out, that old Serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world." Now can anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear have any doubt or confusion about Satan's own seed?




Recommended additional study lectures on audio CD:

#30146, "Genesis, Chapters 1-6"
#30461, "Seed of the Serpent"


Kenites

What about the use of the word Kenites? It is a Hebrew word that has only one meaning, "sons of Cain." It does not mean Judah. The word Kenite cannot be translated Judah and is never used of Judah. Anyone saying that I use the word to describe Judah is not telling the truth; it would be a lie, because I have never said this.



Recommended additional study lecture on audio CD:

#30436, "Kenites"


Exclusive Messenger

Some "researchers" say that I claim to be God's exclusive messenger for this era. I have never thought this, much less claimed it. Such a claim is another outright lie. Those "researchers" cannot prove it because I have never said this. A Christian would not think of making up lies about someone, so how should we label these "Christian Researchers?"

Doctorate of Religious Education

I have never claimed to have received a doctorate from Roy Gillaspie. I do not know where some of these "researchers" came up with this. Roy Gillaspie was simply a beloved teacher of God's Word and I have never said or implied any such thing. It is true that I have a policy of not publicly stating where I earned my doctorate because then "critics" cannot judge me by association. I have always publicly stated that my credentials are my ability to teach God's Word. To the extent that our Heavenly Father blesses me with the ability to clearly teach His Word then what higher ordination could there be?

[G2Rad]

Hahaha.....you ar not well versed at all are you.
The Father (we know who that is)
The Word......the Word became flesh and walked among us (Emanuel, Jesus Christ!) Just what do you think Emanuel means G2rad?
The Holy Ghost.....Arnold uses Holy Spirit. "Spirit" out of respect.

Arnold agrees with the Bible.
Heres the chapel statement of Faith concerning the trinity and Godhead

The Trinity or Godhead

I teach YHVH ("I Am That I Am" and Hebrew for the Sacred Name of God), Yahshua (Hebrew for God's Saviour Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. When you speak the Truth it is the Holy Spirit manifesting Himself through you. Matthew 10:20 explicitly says "For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." The meaning, of course, refers to the Holy Spirit as in Mark 13:11 which notes, "but when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do you premeditate; but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye; for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost (Spirit)." I make no apology for teaching the Godhead in this manner, and I certainly do not need an endorsement or approval or further interpretation of my words from any man or group of research witch hunters.


Also, I have never taught that men were little gods. It would be a lie for someone to say so. I do teach all souls were created by our Father. A Christian that would not teach this fact would have a big problem with Scripture. Example: Jeremiah 1:5 says, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Another example: Ephesians 1:4 says, "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world."



Recommended additional study lectures on audio CD:

#30574, "Nature of God, El Shaddai
#30417, "Elect"



7th, I don't care what Murray or Yahova vitnesses or Muslims say.

here is my authority:

there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one

[7th trump]

Well, as much as the bible requires meditation, deep though, reflection and prayer to understand,

I don't believe that there are secondary esoteric hidden meanings that we need people to discern for us.
If so, how would it be different from the jews and the kabbalah/talmud?

No. The scriptures stand alone, and with prayer you will understand them they way God intends you to understand them


Back to Murray, if he is monotheistic, he is anti-Christian.


7th says that we are too stupid to understand the Bible without Murray, but the Bible says that that is a lie, and even a child can understand it:

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou [Timothy] hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.


I never said you were too stupid........ever!
Or have I ever said anything about you needing Murray. Why do you keep adding lies and misconstrueing what I say?
I said i dont understand how you can misconstrue the Word.

[7th trump]

Hahaha.....you ar not well versed at all are you.
The Father (we know who that is)
The Word......the Word became flesh and walked among us (Emanuel, Jesus Christ!) Just what do you think Emanuel means G2rad?
The Holy Ghost.....Arnold uses Holy Spirit. "Spirit" out of respect.

Arnold agrees with the Bible.
Heres the chapel statement of Faith concerning the trinity and Godhead

The Trinity or Godhead

I teach YHVH ("I Am That I Am" and Hebrew for the Sacred Name of God), Yahshua (Hebrew for God's Saviour Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. When you speak the Truth it is the Holy Spirit manifesting Himself through you. Matthew 10:20 explicitly says "For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." The meaning, of course, refers to the Holy Spirit as in Mark 13:11 which notes, "but when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do you premeditate; but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye; for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost (Spirit)." I make no apology for teaching the Godhead in this manner, and I certainly do not need an endorsement or approval or further interpretation of my words from any man or group of research witch hunters.


Also, I have never taught that men were little gods. It would be a lie for someone to say so. I do teach all souls were created by our Father. A Christian that would not teach this fact would have a big problem with Scripture. Example: Jeremiah 1:5 says, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Another example: Ephesians 1:4 says, "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world."



Recommended additional study lectures on audio CD:

#30574, "Nature of God, El Shaddai
#30417, "Elect"



7th, I don't care what Murray or Yahova vitnesses or Muslims say.

here is my authority:

there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one

Whats funny is that Murray says the very same thing.

[G2Rad]

Back to Murray, if he is monotheistic, he is anti-Christian.


Awoke, Murray teaches that God is one person who took different forms or modes.

[DMac]

Also, I'm not christian (I'm not a jew either, lol), but I do study the bible sometimes for fun (I'm weird, but that's why I'm here :) ).


I know! I know! You are a Rasta Man! ;D


Hahahaha!

I might as well be, I got the lungs of one!

;D


I don't know a whole lot about Rastafari, other than its adherents like to smoke cannabis and worship an ethiopian leader who died in 1975.

It sounds pretty silly to me (well, except the smoking part ;) ), but not really any sillier than any other major religion.

I prefer a more personal approach to the 'divine'. If anyone really wants to meet and commune with God one-on-one, they might want to eat a few hundred micrograms of LSD, or a few grams of psilocybe mushrooms.

One can read books about God, or one can let God speak for himself! :D

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised in the least to learn that major man-made religions got their start from people consuming certain plants and fungi and then reporting their revelations and divine encounters.





Actually, I wouldn't be surprised in the least to learn that major man-made religions got their start from people consuming certain plants and fungi and then reporting their revelations and divine encounters.


Did you read Supernatural? This is the basic idea of the book.

Amazon link (http://www.amazon.com/Supernatural-Meetings-Ancient-Teachers-Mankind/dp/1932857400)

[G2Rad]

Whats funny is that Murray says the very same thing.

I know. He takes our vocabulary and he twists it.
Antichrist too is almost indistinguishable from Jesus.
our job is test every such Murray and he failed the test as far as I am concerned.
You want to believe Murray - go ahead. It is your business.

[sirgonzo420]

Also, I'm not christian (I'm not a jew either, lol), but I do study the bible sometimes for fun (I'm weird, but that's why I'm here :) ).


I know! I know! You are a Rasta Man! ;D


Hahahaha!

I might as well be, I got the lungs of one!

;D


I don't know a whole lot about Rastafari, other than its adherents like to smoke cannabis and worship an ethiopian leader who died in 1975.

It sounds pretty silly to me (well, except the smoking part ;) ), but not really any sillier than any other major religion.

I prefer a more personal approach to the 'divine'. If anyone really wants to meet and commune with God one-on-one, they might want to eat a few hundred micrograms of LSD, or a few grams of psilocybe mushrooms.

One can read books about God, or one can let God speak for himself! :D

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised in the least to learn that major man-made religions got their start from people consuming certain plants and fungi and then reporting their revelations and divine encounters.





Actually, I wouldn't be surprised in the least to learn that major man-made religions got their start from people consuming certain plants and fungi and then reporting their revelations and divine encounters.


Did you read Supernatural? This is the basic idea of the book.

Amazon link (http://www.amazon.com/Supernatural-Meetings-Ancient-Teachers-Mankind/dp/1932857400)


LOL, no I haven't read that, but I have seen the title brought up here recently. I didn't realize that was the subject matter. I'll check it out.

It certain would jive with my own experiences.

[chad]

Also, I'm not christian (I'm not a jew either, lol), but I do study the bible sometimes for fun (I'm weird, but that's why I'm here :) ).


I know! I know! You are a Rasta Man! ;D


Hahahaha!

I might as well be, I got the lungs of one!

;D


I don't know a whole lot about Rastafari, other than its adherents like to smoke cannabis and worship an ethiopian leader who died in 1975.

It sounds pretty silly to me (well, except the smoking part ;) ), but not really any sillier than any other major religion.

I prefer a more personal approach to the 'divine'. If anyone really wants to meet and commune with God one-on-one, they might want to eat a few hundred micrograms of LSD, or a few grams of psilocybe mushrooms.

One can read books about God, or one can let God speak for himself! :D

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised in the least to learn that major man-made religions got their start from people consuming certain plants and fungi and then reporting their revelations and divine encounters.





Actually, I wouldn't be surprised in the least to learn that major man-made religions got their start from people consuming certain plants and fungi and then reporting their revelations and divine encounters.


Did you read Supernatural? This is the basic idea of the book.

Amazon link (http://www.amazon.com/Supernatural-Meetings-Ancient-Teachers-Mankind/dp/1932857400)


just finished it, good read.

[7th trump]

Whats funny is that Murray says the very same thing.

I know. He takes our vocabulary and he twists it.
Antichrist too is almost indistinguishable from Jesus.
our job is test every such Murray and he failed the test as far as I am concerned.
You want to believe Murray - go ahead. It is your business.

And who are you G2rad?
Murray knows who the anti-christ is.........you on the other hand?
Arnold takes "anti" back to its original Greek translated word which happens to translates to "instead of " and tells his viewers to watch out for a spurious messiah or fake "instead of" christ. One that has two horns like lambs do and also looks like the Lamb (Christ) but has the voice of the dragon because its the old serpent, the devil, satan, or son of perdition. The fake messiah can only decive the whole world if hes play acting as Jesus Christ and not the devil whacking off heads murdering people.
How stupid do you think Arnold and his viewers really are to think the whole world is going to whore after satan whos portrayed holding a pitch fork and cutting off heads?
How stupid is that G2rad?
And you want to question a mans integrety who's trying to reach the multitude to the scale of deception thats going to take place. Age long pew sitting church goers are going to take the number of the beast and not even know they are worshipping satan. They dont make it G2rad nor will anybody else who is caught doing the same. Yes the deception is that good that Christ shortened satans time on behalf of the elect who know whats going to happen. Because as Christ says if he doesnt shorten the time no one will be saved.
Shame on you G2rad.......shed the ego and humble thy self!

[Awoke]

Well as far as the Trinity goes, I sort of have it in my heart that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one-in-the-same, although independant, however one God.

That is what is written on my heart.

[G2Rad]

::) Oh great and worshipful Murray, who gloriously translated "anti" back to its Greek meaning of "instead of". :-\

7th, your worshiping Murray is preposturous.

Translating "anti" back to Greek is not a big fit. "instead of" is wide known.

Many ordinary people use Greek and Hebrew concordances daily.
There is nothing special about that.

It is wonderous to you only because you have not studied the Bible on your own, your faith is trust in Murray. To him you handed your soul. ( at least that is my perception of you, I could be wrong )
Hand your soul to God instead and start verifying what comes from Murray with the Bible.

You never talk about how great our God is. You never talk about how great our Christ Jesus is. all you talk about is how great your Murray is.



And who are you G2rad?
Murray knows who the anti-christ is.........you on the other hand?
Arnold takes "anti" back to its original Greek translated word which happens to translates to "instead of " and tells his viewers to watch out for a spurious messiah or fake "instead of" christ. One that has two horns like lambs do and also looks like the Lamb (Christ) but has the voice of the dragon because its the old serpent, the devil, satan, or son of perdition. The fake messiah can only decive the whole world if hes play acting as Jesus Christ and not the devil whacking off heads murdering people.
How stupid do you think Arnold and his viewers really are to think the whole world is going to whore after satan whos portrayed holding a pitch fork and cutting off heads?
How stupid is that G2rad?
And you want to question a mans integrety who's trying to reach the multitude to the scale of deception thats going to take place. Age long pew sitting church goers are going to take the number of the beast and not even know they are worshipping satan. They dont make it G2rad nor will anybody else who is caught doing the same. Yes the deception is that good that Christ shortened satans time on behalf of the elect who know whats going to happen. Because as Christ says if he doesnt shorten the time no one will be saved.
Shame on you G2rad.......shed the ego and humble thy self!

[G2Rad]

Well as far as the Trinity goes, I sort of have it in my heart that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one-in-the-same, although independant, however one God.

That is what is written on my heart.


Awoke, what you have said is consistent with the Bible, which claims that there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one

Murray teaches that there is only one person who wears different suits (modes).

[bellevuebully]

you have to do the will of God to attain salvation......not just beleiving in Christ.


This is, in very few words, the goal of the enemy in presenting false gospels.....to have people believe that it is more than Christ alone who saves.

Obviously, one who loves the Lord Jesus Christ will strive to remain in the will of God in his daily life, but to believe that one can or one will,and in doing so, obtain salvation is a gospel of works. We do not obtain salvation, we receive it by believing that it is he who does the saving, not us.

[sirgonzo420]

Well, as much as the bible requires meditation, deep though, reflection and prayer to understand,

I don't believe that there are secondary esoteric hidden meanings that we need people to discern for us.
If so, how would it be different from the jews and the kabbalah/talmud?

Well, christianity was born out of judaism, so of course christianity is somewhat jewish. And there is different meaning to the bible than *just* what the english KJV says.

I'll give you an example by illustrating Genesis 1:1, which in the KJV is:

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

Transliterated in hebrew that's:

"Be·re·shit ba·ra e·lo·him; et ha·sha·ma·yim ve·'et ha·'a·retz." בראשית ברא אלהים את השמים ואת הארץ׃

Those hebrew words can be translated in different ways, the KJV translation being only one of many.

"In the beginning" can also be translated as:


"With the beginning"
"In the head"
"With the head"
"In wisdom"
"With Wisdom"

The above translations are just as good as the ONE translation that made it to the KJV.

As I've said before, when you go from one language to another language, veritably something will be lost.



Also "elohim" is plural in hebrew, but translated as the singular "God" in the KJV version. Now, "elohim" being plural doesn't connote multiple gods, but multiple powers of God. Either way, that notion is lost when the translators dumb down the texts.

[Awoke]

Awoke, what you have said is consistent with the Bible, which claims that there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one

Murray teaches that there is only one person who wears different suits (modes).


None of us can truely understand the mystery of the Lord until it is time, and it is not time yet.

His understanding of the Trinity is whatever it is, and I can't state anything about the Trinity as fact.

I have found other doctrines from Murray that reverberate with (as Bellevue Bully put it) "Cultist metality" or something to that effect.



EDITED to add

Gonzo, everything you posted is debatable

Google search "Jesus was not a jew" and you'll see what I mean.

[Book]

Transliterated in hebrew that's:

"Be·re·shit ba·ra e·lo·him; et ha·sha·ma·yim ve·'et ha·'a·retz." בראשית ברא אלהים את השמים ואת הארץ׃



Dang. I didn't know you spoke hebrew.

:D

[G2Rad]

you have to do the will of God to attain salvation......not just beleiving in Christ.


This is, in very few words, the goal of the enemy in presenting false gospels.....to have people believe that it is more than Christ alone who saves.

Obviously, one who loves the Lord Jesus Christ will strive to remain in the will of God in his daily life, but to believe that one can or one will,and in doing so, obtain salvation is a gospel of works. We do not obtain salvation, we receive it by believing that it is he who does the saving, not us.


good catch, bellevuebully.

[sirgonzo420]

Awoke, what you have said is consistent with the Bible, which claims that there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one

Murray teaches that there is only one person who wears different suits (modes).


None of us can truely understand the mystery of the Lord until it is time, and it is not time yet.

His understanding of the Trinity is whatever it is, and I can't state anything about the Trinity as fact.

I have found other doctrines from Murray that reverberate with (as Bellevue Bully put it) "Cultist metality" or something to that effect.



EDITED to add

Gonzo, everything you posted is debatable

Google search "Jesus was not a jew" and you'll see what I mean.




Sure, it's debatable.

But the Old Testament was written in hebrew, and that's not really debatable.

And "bereshit" (בראשית) means "With the beginning"/"In the head"/"With the head"/"In wisdom"/"With wisdom" just as much as it means "In the beginning".

Learn hebrew if you don't believe me.

Hebrew words are almost never translated into just one english word.

Another example is the word "et" (את) which does NOT translate into english at ALL, so the KJV translators just LEFT IT OUT! lol!

"Et" (את) is a sort of abbreviation for the hebrew alphabet, so alternate translations would be:


"In the beginning, God created the alphabet of the heavens, and the alphabet of the earth."
"With the head, God created the alphabet of the heavens, and the alphabet of the earth."
etc, etc

[sirgonzo420]

Transliterated in hebrew that's:

"Be·re·shit ba·ra e·lo·him; et ha·sha·ma·yim ve·'et ha·'a·retz." בראשית ברא אלהים את השמים ואת הארץ׃



Dang. I didn't know you spoke hebrew.

:D


I get better loans that way!



(just kidding, I don't get loans, lol)


(and I don't speak much hebrew; I'm not fluent, but I can read and write some)

[G2Rad]

Well, christianity was born out of judaism

Note that act of killing too gives birth to murderer-victim connection, even if the two were totally unrelated before

[Book]

(and I don't speak much hebrew; I'm not fluent, but I can read and write some)



Go to Synagogue more often.

:D

[Awoke]

Hey Gonzo, I'm not arguing with you. I understand that much is lost in translation.

That is why I read the Douay Rheims, because it is a direct translation of the Latin Vulgate, which is in turn (supposedly) a direct translation of the hebrew, Greek and Aramaic texts, which I can not read.

Even still, trying to get as close as I can to the source with the Douay Rheims version, I know there are risks unless you can hold the original parchment in your hands and read it in it's original language.

I'm just saying that there are dynamics involved, and everything is suseptible to biased slating, etc. I bear that in mind, even when I read my DR bible.

[sirgonzo420]

Hey Gonzo, I'm not arguing with you. I understand that much is lost in translation.

That is why I read the Douay Rheims, because it is a direct translation of the Latin Vulgate, which is in turn (supposedly) a direct translation of the hebrew, Greek and Aramaic texts, which I can not read.

Even still, trying to get as close as I can to the source with the Douay Rheims version, I know there are risks unless you can hold the original parchment in your hands and read it in it's original language.

I'm just saying that there are dynamics involved, and everything is suseptible to biased slating, etc. I bear that in mind, even when I read my DR bible.


If you want the best english translation, go for the Geneva. The Geneva is translated into english from the original tongues, without latin in the middle.

[sirgonzo420]

(and I don't speak much hebrew; I'm not fluent, but I can read and write some)



Go to Synagogue more often.

:D





LOL.

Do you seriously think I'm a jew?

Have you read my posts? lol

Je parle français aussi, mais je ne suis pas Français.


:oo-->

[G2Rad]

The Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people (to Jews) .
does not sound like "go to Jews and learn their Herbrew"

Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

due to partual (1/2) blindness what they see is:
precept upon precept; line upon line; here a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

see the missing parts?

1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

God speaks through our tongues and our lips at this age

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

note that the giving of the Holy Ghost is connected with speaking with other tongues

speaking of Hebrew (one) Greek(two) and Aramaic(three)

1 Corinthians 14:27
If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

there are many more Bible verses refuting zionist's false claim about supposed superiority of originals, the originals that don't exist.

There are mind-blowing textual evidances of superiority of KJV

don't waste your time "becoming Greek"

[G2Rad]

Read what the Bible says about originals,

read Jeremiah 51

[sirgonzo420]

The Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people (to Jews) .
does not sound like "go to Jews and learn their Herbrew"

Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

due to partual (1/2) blindness what they see is:
precept upon precept; line upon line; here a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

see the missing parts?

1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

God speaks through our tongues and our lips at this age

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

note that the giving of the Holy Ghost is connected with speaking with other tongues

speaking of Hebrew (one) Greek(two) and Aramaic(three)

1 Corinthians 14:27
If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

there are many more Bible verses refuting zionist's false claim about supposed superiority of originals, the originals that don't exist.

There are mind-blowing textual evidances of superiority of KJV

don't waste your time "becoming Greek"



What would the literary value of Beowulf be in say, swahili?

If you want to appreciate Beowulf, you must do so in OLD ENGLISH. Even updating to modern english loses volumes from the original... translating it to swahili would lose most all of it.

If you want to REALLY know the bible inside and out, why not read it in the original languages?

An english translation might be "almost as good", but can't be superior to the languages in which the books were actually written.

For example, various greek and hebrew words get translated as "love" in english. When you understand the source language word, you can understand what type of love is being discussed.

A mother's love for her son is not the same as a man's love for his wife, or a brother's love for his sibling.

The english text is "simplified" from the hebrew and greek.

The KJV is the best *widely available* english translation, but it is an OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT VERSION, and was commissioned by a homosexual because he wanted to remove the copious amount of notes from the Geneva.

The Geneva is better than the KJV, but the original tongues are better than the Geneva.

[Awoke]

There are mind-blowing textual evidances of superiority of KJV


Not to start any crap with you brother, but I just wasn't sure if you saw this post that I made about protestant bibles in the Lady Gaga thread.




Now, I know this is a long post, but here is something interesting about the Palistinian bible.




2. What is the most noticeable difference?
The most noticeable difference is the absence of seven whole books and parts of two others from the Protestant versions.

3. What books are not contained in the Protestant version?
The Deutero-Canonical Books (See lesson 6).

4. Why are the Deutero-Canonical Books Omitted by Protestants?
Because the Protestant versions of the Bible follow the late Palestinian version of the Bible, which also omits these books



But this is the kicker.

Check this out:




The DR New Testament was first published by the English College at Rheims in 1582 A.D. The DR Old Testament was first published by the English College at Douay in 1609 A.D. The first King James Version was not published until 1611. This online DRV contains all 73 books, including the seven Deutero-Canonical books (erroneously called Apocrypha by Protestants). These seven books were included in the 1611 KJV, but not in later KJV Bibles.

St. Jerome considered the seven Deutero-Canonical books to be NOT inspired by God, but he was commissioned by Pope Damasus to translate all 73 books into Latin. Pope Damasus considered the 7 DC books to be inspired by God. Later in 1946, after the finding of the dead-sea scrolls, it was discovered that these 7 DC books were used by the Jews in Alexandria, even in their services. This verifies that Pope Damasus was correct.

It is interesting to note that the Palestinian Jews did not accept the 7 DC books for their version of Holy Scriptures and neither did they accept any of the New Testament. Unfortunately, the Protestants base their Bible on this version which comes from a people who did not accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah.



http://drbo.org/intro.htm


What are your thoughts? I am not vehemently oppossed to hearing objecting viewpoints, unless I know they are the work of lucifer, and I know you well enough to know you're guarded against his tactics.

So share with me please.

[G2Rad]

What would the literary value of Beowulf be in say, swahili?

If you want to appreciate Beowulf, you must do so in OLD ENGLISH. Even updating to modern english loses volumes from the original... translating it to swahili would lose most all of it.

If you want to REALLY know the bible inside and out, why not read it in the original languages?

An english translation might be "almost as good", but can't be superior to the languages in which the books were actually written.

For example, various greek and hebrew words get translated as "love" in english. When you understand the source language word, you can understand what type of love is being discussed.

A mother's love for her son is not the same as a man's love for his wife, or a brother's love for his sibling.

The english text is "simplified" from the hebrew and greek.


I know you are not a Christian and perhaps do not believe God lives.

Jeremiah 51 is answer to your "Beowulf". Original number one (can I say Hebrew) was burned and God produced better original, original number two (can I say Greek). Original number two God ordered to be thrown is the river. After that God produced even better "original". Original number three.

I know that it is all nonsense for you because you are not a Christian. Perhaps you even think God is dead.

I know He is alive and active. As He promised to speak to us, gentiles in our own tong, so He will do. As he promised to preserve His word, so He will do.

There are no "originals", they are burned and in rivers.
We got a living Word of God.

[Antonio]

One Russian Orthodox monk who was especially elevated spiritually was once asked:
"Holy Father, how come when a Russian drunk leaves the Orthodox Church and joins a Protestant church, he immediately stops drinking and cursing etc?"

The monk said:" When one sells his soul to the Satan, little devils leave him, there is no need to bother him anymore."

[osoab]

I'm with gonzo on this one, but in the end no one is going to change the others mind.

[G2Rad]

Now, I know this is a long post, but here is something interesting about the Palistinian bible.




2. What is the most noticeable difference?
The most noticeable difference is the absence of seven whole books and parts of two others from the Protestant versions.

3. What books are not contained in the Protestant version?
The Deutero-Canonical Books (See lesson 6).

4. Why are the Deutero-Canonical Books Omitted by Protestants?
Because the Protestant versions of the Bible follow the late Palestinian version of the Bible, which also omits these books



But this is the kicker.

Check this out:




The DR New Testament was first published by the English College at Rheims in 1582 A.D. The DR Old Testament was first published by the English College at Douay in 1609 A.D. The first King James Version was not published until 1611. This online DRV contains all 73 books, including the seven Deutero-Canonical books (erroneously called Apocrypha by Protestants). These seven books were included in the 1611 KJV, but not in later KJV Bibles.

St. Jerome considered the seven Deutero-Canonical books to be NOT inspired by God, but he was commissioned by Pope Damasus to translate all 73 books into Latin. Pope Damasus considered the 7 DC books to be inspired by God. Later in 1946, after the finding of the dead-sea scrolls, it was discovered that these 7 DC books were used by the Jews in Alexandria, even in their services. This verifies that Pope Damasus was correct.

It is interesting to note that the Palestinian Jews did not accept the 7 DC books for their version of Holy Scriptures and neither did they accept any of the New Testament. Unfortunately, the Protestants base their Bible on this version which comes from a people who did not accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah.



http://drbo.org/intro.htm


What are your thoughts? I am not vehemently oppossed to hearing objecting viewpoints, unless I know they are the work of lucifer, and I know you well enough to know you're guarded against his tactics.

So share with me please.


Awoke, I did not see that post. I will study that when I will get home.

[k-os]

The DR New Testament was first published by the English College at Rheims in 1582 A.D. The DR Old Testament was first published by the English College at Douay in 1609 A.D. The first King James Version was not published until 1611. This online DRV contains all 73 books, including the seven Deutero-Canonical books (erroneously called Apocrypha by Protestants). These seven books were included in the 1611 KJV, but not in later KJV Bibles.

St. Jerome considered the seven Deutero-Canonical books to be NOT inspired by God, but he was commissioned by Pope Damasus to translate all 73 books into Latin. Pope Damasus considered the 7 DC books to be inspired by God. Later in 1946, after the finding of the dead-sea scrolls, it was discovered that these 7 DC books were used by the Jews in Alexandria, even in their services. This verifies that Pope Damasus was correct.

It is interesting to note that the Palestinian Jews did not accept the 7 DC books for their version of Holy Scriptures and neither did they accept any of the New Testament. Unfortunately, the Protestants base their Bible on this version which comes from a people who did not accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah.


http://drbo.org/intro.htm


What are your thoughts? I am not vehemently oppossed to hearing objecting viewpoints, unless I know they are the work of lucifer, and I know you well enough to know you're guarded against his tactics.

So share with me please.


I have read the Apocrypha (I never knew there was a different term for them [Deutero-Canonical]), and they resonated with me. Granted, I enjoy reading all different religious texts, and I am not a bible scholar, so this means nothing really. All I know is that the books are controversial - which of course, makes me want to read them.

The argument about which bible is the "best" bible bothers me, just as I don't care for the argument about which version of Christianity is the best. It's all divisive. We could have 5 (however many) people in this thread agreeing about the message of Christ, but instead, we have 5 people divided on which version of the bible is the right one. Surprisingly, this disagreement can lead to hard feelings, which is amazing because if they hadn't began the "right/wrong bible" discussion, they would be agreeing.

Anyway . . . Isn't it possible that God gives you the right bible for you? Isn't it possible that bible might not be the right bible for everyone?

[sirgonzo420]

Awoke,

The post above by k-os reminds me to tell you that the Geneva Bible is available with the Apocrypha.

[7th trump]

you have to do the will of God to attain salvation......not just beleiving in Christ.


This is, in very few words, the goal of the enemy in presenting false gospels.....to have people believe that it is more than Christ alone who saves.

Obviously, one who loves the Lord Jesus Christ will strive to remain in the will of God in his daily life, but to believe that one can or one will,and in doing so, obtain salvation is a gospel of works. We do not obtain salvation, we receive it by believing that it is he who does the saving, not us.

What I'm saying is you can have believers in Christ all day long but when they leave Sunday morning service they are back at ripping people off to make a buck. Take for example a murderer. A murderer can belaive all day long but his day of trail is in Heaven.

[G2Rad]

Avoke,

I got two (paper) Bibles with Deutero-Canonical books in between NT and OT.

One is my very old Bible from pre-saved times.

Another is 1611 Edition KJV.

Honestly, I did not read them through (the Deutero-Canonical books) .

The only thing I did a couple of years ago was, I checked a few claims that certain verses in the DC books seem to allow (and even encourage) for suicide. I remember reading an encounter that was glorifying a guy who jumped off the castle wall, refusing to surrender. Other verses seemed to encourage love for money and stuff. On that I spent only about an hour in total. Too short a time for a definite conclusion, yet I did not like what I saw in the verses that I've read.

That is about all my experience with the DC books, except I'd like to mention that once I converted the entire KJV text into a database and did some simple statistical calcs on it (without DC) to see whether I can find any abnormalities (signatures). There were quite a few curiocities, like f.e. word Satan encountered 55 times. I am not sure if those will be preserved if the DC books are added.

So, that's all I have to say. make your own mind.

[G2Rad]

for example, here is a dump of all verses with the word "Satan" from my DB

Name Chapter.Number Verse.Number VerseText
1 Chronicles 21 1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
Job 1 6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1 7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 1 8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 1 9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job 1 12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
Job 2 7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
Job 2 1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job 2 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 2 3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
Job 2 4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
Job 2 6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he [is] in thine hand; but save his life.
Psalms 109 6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.
Zechariah 3 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: [is] not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Zechariah 3 1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
Matthew 4 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Matthew 12 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
Matthew 16 23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Mark 1 13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.
Mark 3 23 And he called them [unto him], and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
Mark 3 26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
Mark 4 15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Mark 8 33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
Luke 4 8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Luke 10 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Luke 11 18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.
Luke 13 16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?
Luke 22 3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
Luke 22 31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [to have] you, that he may sift [you] as wheat:
John 13 27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
Acts 5 3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land?
Acts 26 18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Romans 16 20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen.
1 Corinthians 5 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1 Corinthians 7 5 Defraud ye not one the other, except [it be] with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
2 Corinthians 2 11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
2 Corinthians 11 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2 Corinthians 12 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
1 Thessalonians 2 18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.
2 Thessalonians 2 9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
1 Timothy 1 20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
1 Timothy 5 15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.
Revelation 2 9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.
Revelation 2 13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Revelation 2 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
Revelation 3 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Revelation 12 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Revelation 20 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Revelation 20 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

[bellevuebully]

Anyway . . . Isn't it possible that God gives you the right bible for you? Isn't it possible that bible might not be the right bible for everyone?


My personal feeling is that all the translations that are generally accepted (kjv, nkjv, nas, niv, etc) will all speak the message that God has for us. If you read one of these and can't get the message that the fundemental problem lies with us, and that God has offered us a free remedy through faith in Jesus Christ, you are not reading it with the intent to hear what it has to say.

Reading any one of them is better than not reading one at all.

[G2Rad]

I can easily constuct SQL queries into KJV text (if you know what I mean) to extract any statistics I could imagine.

KJV is a very precise mechanism. There is a reason why it sounds strange sometimes.

[7th trump]

::) Oh great and worshipful Murray, who gloriously translated "anti" back to its Greek meaning of "instead of". :-\

7th, your worshiping Murray is preposturous.

Translating "anti" back to Greek is not a big fit. "instead of" is wide known.

Many ordinary people use Greek and Hebrew concordances daily.
There is nothing special about that.

It is wonderous to you only because you have not studied the Bible on your own, your faith is trust in Murray. To him you handed your soul. ( at least that is my perception of you, I could be wrong )
Hand your soul to God instead and start verifying what comes from Murray with the Bible.

You never talk about how great our God is. You never talk about how great our Christ Jesus is. all you talk about is how great your Murray is.



And who are you G2rad?
Murray knows who the anti-christ is.........you on the other hand?
Arnold takes "anti" back to its original Greek translated word which happens to translates to "instead of " and tells his viewers to watch out for a spurious messiah or fake "instead of" christ. One that has two horns like lambs do and also looks like the Lamb (Christ) but has the voice of the dragon because its the old serpent, the devil, satan, or son of perdition. The fake messiah can only decive the whole world if hes play acting as Jesus Christ and not the devil whacking off heads murdering people.
How stupid do you think Arnold and his viewers really are to think the whole world is going to whore after satan whos portrayed holding a pitch fork and cutting off heads?
How stupid is that G2rad?
And you want to question a mans integrety who's trying to reach the multitude to the scale of deception thats going to take place. Age long pew sitting church goers are going to take the number of the beast and not even know they are worshipping satan. They dont make it G2rad nor will anybody else who is caught doing the same. Yes the deception is that good that Christ shortened satans time on behalf of the elect who know whats going to happen. Because as Christ says if he doesnt shorten the time no one will be saved.
Shame on you G2rad.......shed the ego and humble thy self!


I dont worship Murray and you know it and I didnt say anything was special about "anti" now have I.
You keep injecting your lies against me. Isnt that breaking a Commandment G2rad?
You know it seems that you are little bit pissed.
I really cant say that I blame you. You come across as this all knowing but you havent yet blown any horn of warning to anyone that we are real close to the 6th trumpet sounding. To me you are just another run of the mill pew sitting church goer ripe for the reaping.
You really havent heard yet have you??

[bellevuebully]

you have to do the will of God to attain salvation......not just beleiving in Christ.


This is, in very few words, the goal of the enemy in presenting false gospels.....to have people believe that it is more than Christ alone who saves.

Obviously, one who loves the Lord Jesus Christ will strive to remain in the will of God in his daily life, but to believe that one can or one will,and in doing so, obtain salvation is a gospel of works. We do not obtain salvation, we receive it by believing that it is he who does the saving, not us.

What I'm saying is you can have believers in Christ all day long but when they leave Sunday morning service they are back at ripping people off to make a buck. Take for example a murderer. A murderer can belaive all day long but his day of trail is in Heaven.


Wow 7th.....I've got to say I am shocked at this post. You must realize the difference between a genuine believer and a believer who is one in claim only, do you not? Jesus himself and all of the epistles discuss these issues ad infinitum. Even the fact that you would mention these types of people as 'believers' and use this as an example to support your position tells me you are even more led astray than I really even considered. Whether you believe, me or not, I am very concerned for you.

Anyone living like the examples you gave above who would call themselves a Christian is only lying to themselves. The term 'believer' could not be applied to them. Jesus gives countless teachings on this.

This is a fundemental building block of understanding 7th. I don't know what else to say except maybe spend more time focusing on the what the bible has to say about salvation through a genuine faith in Christ and put the cd's about recognizing the anti-christ away. Understanding end time prophecy certainly has it's place, but certainly not until one understands the foundation of Christian truth.

The bible is very clear....we come to salvation by a genuine love and faith in what Christ did for us and in believing in his ability, not ours, to atone for our sins so that we may be changed by his Spirit and reconciled to the Father.

[G2Rad]

I dont worship Murray and you know it and I didnt say anything was special about "anti" now have I.
You keep injecting your lies against me. Isnt that breaking a Commandment G2rad?
You know it seems that you are little bit pissed.
I really cant say that I blame you. You come across as this all knowing but you havent yet blown any horn of warning to anyone that we are real close to the 6th trumpet sounding. To me you are just another run of the mill pew sitting church goer ripe for the reaping.
You really havent heard yet have you??


7th, thank you for your concern about me.
Now you know that I am concerned about you too.

[7th trump]

you have to do the will of God to attain salvation......not just beleiving in Christ.


This is, in very few words, the goal of the enemy in presenting false gospels.....to have people believe that it is more than Christ alone who saves.

Obviously, one who loves the Lord Jesus Christ will strive to remain in the will of God in his daily life, but to believe that one can or one will,and in doing so, obtain salvation is a gospel of works. We do not obtain salvation, we receive it by believing that it is he who does the saving, not us.

What I'm saying is you can have believers in Christ all day long but when they leave Sunday morning service they are back at ripping people off to make a buck. Take for example a murderer. A murderer can belaive all day long but his day of trail is in Heaven.


Wow 7th.....I've got to say I am shocked at this post. You must realize the difference between a genuine believer and a believer who is one in claim only, do you not? Jesus himself and all of the epistles discuss these issues ad infinitum. Even the fact that you would mention these types of people as 'believers' and use this as an example to support your position tells me you are even more led astray than I really even considered. Whether you believe, me or not, I am very concerned for you.

Anyone living like the examples you gave above who would call themselves a Christian is only lying to themselves. The term 'believer' could not be applied to them. Jesus gives countless teachings on this.

This is a fundemental building block of understanding 7th. I don't know what else to say except maybe spend more time focusing on the what the bible has to say about salvation through a genuine faith in Christ and put the cd's about recognizing the anti-christ away. Understanding end time prophecy certainly has it's place, but certainly not until one understands the foundation of Christian truth.

The bible is very clear....we come to salvation by a genuine love and faith in what Christ did for us and in believing in his ability, not ours, to atone for our sins so that we may be changed by his Spirit and reconciled to the Father.



What about those beleivers who take the number of the beast? Will they acheive salvation?
I mean these are church pew sitters worshipping satan.
Will God allow them into paradise just because they "beleive".

[7th trump]

I dont worship Murray and you know it and I didnt say anything was special about "anti" now have I.
You keep injecting your lies against me. Isnt that breaking a Commandment G2rad?
You know it seems that you are little bit pissed.
I really cant say that I blame you. You come across as this all knowing but you havent yet blown any horn of warning to anyone that we are real close to the 6th trumpet sounding. To me you are just another run of the mill pew sitting church goer ripe for the reaping.
You really havent heard yet have you??


7th, thank you for your concern about me.
Now you know that I am concerned about you too.

Dont worry about me. Worry about yourself and how you are going to know the difference between the fake and the real Christ.

[bellevuebully]

Wow 7th.....I've got to say I am shocked at this post. You must realize the difference between a genuine believer and a believer who is one in claim only, do you not? Jesus himself and all of the epistles discuss these issues ad infinitum. Even the fact that you would mention these types of people as 'believers' and use this as an example to support your position tells me you are even more led astray than I really even considered. Whether you believe, me or not, I am very concerned for you.

Anyone living like the examples you gave above who would call themselves a Christian is only lying to themselves. The term 'believer' could not be applied to them. Jesus gives countless teachings on this.

This is a fundemental building block of understanding 7th. I don't know what else to say except maybe spend more time focusing on the what the bible has to say about salvation through a genuine faith in Christ and put the cd's about recognizing the anti-christ away. Understanding end time prophecy certainly has it's place, but certainly not until one understands the foundation of Christian truth.

The bible is very clear....we come to salvation by a genuine love and faith in what Christ did for us and in believing in his ability, not ours, to atone for our sins so that we may be changed by his Spirit and reconciled to the Father.



What about those beleivers who take the number of the beast? Will they acheive salvation?
I mean these are church pew sitters worshipping satan.
Will God allow them into paradise just because they "beleive".


7th, I can answer what you are asking me, but I want to inquire if you genuinely are interested in my position on this. I don't need to engage in an intellectual boxing match, this is not a debate that I need to win. You don't have to agree with me. Convincing you of something that you have already convinced yourself of is not my responsibility. However, if you want to discuss some theological matters relating to what you wrote above, I would be more than pleased to. Like I said, I have no interest in engaging in theological discusion that will be used as a springboard for hostility against me or other members. Do you want to continue?

[7th trump]

Wow 7th.....I've got to say I am shocked at this post. You must realize the difference between a genuine believer and a believer who is one in claim only, do you not? Jesus himself and all of the epistles discuss these issues ad infinitum. Even the fact that you would mention these types of people as 'believers' and use this as an example to support your position tells me you are even more led astray than I really even considered. Whether you believe, me or not, I am very concerned for you.

Anyone living like the examples you gave above who would call themselves a Christian is only lying to themselves. The term 'believer' could not be applied to them. Jesus gives countless teachings on this.

This is a fundemental building block of understanding 7th. I don't know what else to say except maybe spend more time focusing on the what the bible has to say about salvation through a genuine faith in Christ and put the cd's about recognizing the anti-christ away. Understanding end time prophecy certainly has it's place, but certainly not until one understands the foundation of Christian truth.

The bible is very clear....we come to salvation by a genuine love and faith in what Christ did for us and in believing in his ability, not ours, to atone for our sins so that we may be changed by his Spirit and reconciled to the Father.



What about those beleivers who take the number of the beast? Will they acheive salvation?
I mean these are church pew sitters worshipping satan.
Will God allow them into paradise just because they "beleive".


7th, I can answer what you are asking me, but I want to inquire if you genuinely are interested in my position on this. I don't need to engage in an intellectual boxing match, this is not a debate that I need to win. You don't have to agree with me. Convincing you of something that you have already convinced yourself of is not my responsibility. However, if you want to discuss some theological matters relating to what you wrote above, I would be more than pleased to. Like I said, I have no interest in engaging in theological discusion that will be used as a springboard for hostility against me or other members. Do you want to continue?

Lets continue shall we?

[Bullion_Bob]

I see Jackie Kennedy riding the horse, and she's holding a gun.

[vacuum]

I'd like to see the theological discussion continue. I used to believe one was saved by believing in Jesus in the manner that bellevuebully describes, but no longer necessarily have that interpretation.

[FunnyMoney]

I'd like to see the theological discussion continue.


I agree with vacuum. And when that's done, as simply a minor point of interest, I also want to know if that green ghost looking image on his horse is the real deal or not.

[vacuum]

I'd like to see the theological discussion continue.


I agree with vacuum. And when that's done, as simply a minor point of interest, I also want to know if that green ghost looking image on his horse is the real deal or not.

What are your religious views FunnyMoney?

[sirgonzo420]

I see Jackie Kennedy riding the horse, and she's holding a gun.


;D

[7th trump]

I'd like to see the theological discussion continue.


I agree with vacuum. And when that's done, as simply a minor point of interest, I also want to know if that green ghost looking image on his horse is the real deal or not.

Think about it Funny.
Something as significant as this Biblical event is noticed by a few in a corner of a video taping that appears to be a reflection?
Really?
Any avid Bible reader knows the rider "Death" is just one name of a few of satans. What you are reading is satans appearence on earth, the 666, (the 6th seal, the 6th vial, and 6th trumpet). This passage is just showing that satan, though coming as a fake or spurioous messiah, is going around gathering up as many souls as he can, anyway he can, before the final and last, 7th trumpet, is sounded.
Most here dont understand that satan, or lucifer, death, the serpent, the son of perdition, the devil, all being the same fallen rebellous angel has already been sentenced to death in the lake of fire. God is using him to see which of His children have been paying attention to the Word or able to be deceived by satan.
Whats important here is to understand that God set the rules that if you are caught deceived (taking the number of the beast, 666) or disobeyed the Law you are going into the lake of fire regardless of being a life long Sunday service pew sitter. Satan knows this.
If you read further on in Revelation you come across satan being chained up for a thousand years after the 7th trumpet has been sounded. Christ says Hes the last trumpet. His return is the 7th trumpet sounding. Now in Revelation theres not much to read about the 7th trump. The details of Christs return (7th trump) are found mainly in the book of Mathew. Once the last trumpet is sounded the vail is lifted, game or test is over. Those in the flesh are changed in a twinkle of an eye back into our spiritual bodies. Those who are dead in Christ come out of the grave meaning those who have already been here in the flesh and passed on all return. Nobody is lost and nobody comes out of a grave. Tye flesh body is used only once and returns to where it came, dirt.
Now back to the that thousand years of satan being chained up after the 7th trumpet is sounded. During this thousand years Christ rules with a rod of iron, strict and very strict indeed. But the iron rod isnt for those who have overcome. The iron rod is for those who didnt over come. However, not all those who didnt overcome make it. Those who broke the law such as taking a life for example, homicide, if found guilty in Heaven do not make it. They wait for the lake of fire to be destroyed and "blotted"!
Do you know what "blotted" means? It means you are going to be removed or blotted from memory of those who did overcome. Paradise is a place with no misery or any kind of remorse so if grandpa or grandma didnt over come you will not know they ever existed. AKA.........BLOTTED as its written!
God in more places than one warns of those who know and act in the capacity of being a sheoperd of being blotted.
Its shot across our bow from God Himself that if we are to sheperd the sheep we better know without a doubt the Word and not mislead the sheep to perdition.
Judgement starts at the pulpit even if the pulpit is an internet forum.

[Awoke]

FunnyMoney and Vacuum, thanks for the chuckle.





The argument about which bible is the "best" bible bothers me, just as I don't care for the argument about which version of Christianity is the best. It's all divisive. We could have 5 (however many) people in this thread agreeing about the message of Christ, but instead, we have 5 people divided on which version of the bible is the right one. Surprisingly, this disagreement can lead to hard feelings, which is amazing because if they hadn't began the "right/wrong bible" discussion, they would be agreeing.

Anyway . . . Isn't it possible that God gives you the right bible for you? Isn't it possible that bible might not be the right bible for everyone?


K-os: You have a good heart and a good moral compass, and I can say that in all confidence based on your posts on this forum.

You are absolutely correct with this post, pointing out that the different sects of Christianity do have infighting, etc. You know my stance on this by now: I blame the jewish 5th column for the schizm (with proof).

Anyways, that is only part of what we're discussing. The different versions are a threat, becuase many have been tinkered with. I was given a bible by a close personal friend, and it is a "Current and up to date" bible. I can't remember the title, but it is one translation or another (NSRV, RSV, whatever) with a current translation/"Modern day" interpolation of the scripture on the same page.

For example, you could read a scripture such as Josue 7:15

"And whosoever he be that shall be found guilty of this fact, he shall be burnt with fire with all his substance, because he hath transgressed the covenant of the Lord, and hath done wickedness in Israel."

and on the same page on the other half, there would be a modern interpretataion for readers with reading comprehension problems, such as this

"anyone that has committed this crime will be punished with fire and all their material things will be burned, because they broke God's rules, and have done bad things in israel."

The major problem with this is, I don't see the scriptures the same way as these contemporary authors do. I was leafing through it, reading random sciptures and a found that over 50% of the interpretations were totally off-base from the true intent of the Word. The contemporary interpolation was not accurate to what the Lord wanted us to take away from the scriptures.

Reading through it, I could feel that it was satan work in that version of the bible, totally. I got a dreadful feeling of doom as I continued to try and find more and more mis-interpretations.

I thanked my friend for the gift, and then broke the news to her gently, that the version of the bible was corrupted. She thanked me for it.

The reason I bothered to go through typing all that is, knowing what you know from the posts I have made on the 5th column, you must understand that "finding a bible that suits you" is not the key. The key is, finding a bible that is as close to the true word of God as possible, and then changing your life so you "suit" it, ifyaknowhutimean.

;)

Keep your guard up, because luciferian new age mysticism is always trying to trick people into making their own religion.
People are always trying to find ways to make religion conform to their lives, when they should be trying to conform their lives to what Christ outlines clearly for us. My own life is a work in progress in this regard.

[Awoke]

I still haven't seen this video yet.

>:(

[G2Rad]

Any avid Bible reader knows the rider "Death" is just one name of a few of satans. What you are reading is satans appearence on earth, the 666, (the 6th seal, the 6th vial, and 6th trumpet). This passage is just showing that satan, though coming as a fake or spurioous messiah, is going around gathering up as many souls as he can, anyway he can, before the final and last, 7th trumpet, is sounded.



you are mistaken, the passage is showing what will happen at 4th seal.

Here is the Bible:

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

it clearly states 4th seal. compare that to Murrays fables

[7th trump]

Any avid Bible reader knows the rider "Death" is just one name of a few of satans. What you are reading is satans appearence on earth, the 666, (the 6th seal, the 6th vial, and 6th trumpet). This passage is just showing that satan, though coming as a fake or spurioous messiah, is going around gathering up as many souls as he can, anyway he can, before the final and last, 7th trumpet, is sounded.



you are mistaken, the passage is showing what will happen at 4th seal.

Here is the Bible:

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

it clearly states 4th seal. compare that to Murrays fables



I've been waiting for you to leave yourself wide open. The seals are not in chronological order of events. Arnold has a teaching on this........I guess I'll have to post it on youtube so I can link to it for your edification.
I didnt think you understood what you were reading because Revelation 8:1,2 specifically states at the seventh seals opening not one trumpet has yet sounded. That throws a very big wrench into your thought process doesnt it? I suppose now you are going to try and tell everyone here the Bible is wrong out of premeditation of thinking you thought you know something.
I'm telling you that all these details that you are missing are combed over very thoroughly by the Chapel. Arnold knows very well what it means to be blotted out for leading the sheep to perdition. I suggest you do the same and humble yourself or at least slow down and take in what you are reading.


Revelation 8:1,2
And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

I bet you dont even understand the significants of the half hour of silence in heaven?

[Awoke]

Revelation 8:1,2
And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

I bet you dont even understand the significants of the half hour of silence in heaven?


...and I'll bet you do.

:oo-->

I don't think you're going to win anyone over to a new church of a latter day "saint".

[7th trump]

Revelation 8:1,2
And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

I bet you dont even understand the significants of the half hour of silence in heaven?


...and I'll bet you do.

:oo-->

I don't think you're going to win anyone over to a new church of a latter day "saint".

Yep and you know why?
Because God has it written that everything for us to know is in the Bible.

I'm not trying to win anyone over to any church. Matter of fact, its seems the other way around. It seems you and G2rad are hell bent on turning people away.
You dont want salvation then so be it.........to the pit you will go. God isnt hard up for anyone of us or you with your attitude........we and you need God! Free will is awesome isnt it? But if you do you want paradise you are still going to have to go through Christ and humbly I might add.
You can take the easy road now or take the hard road of being ruled with a rod of iron and tested all over again when satan is released for a short season.

[G2Rad]

that everything for us to know is in the Bible.


then why don't you believe the Bible? :oo-->

the Bible says that the rider will appear at the 4-th seal

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

you claimed that "the rider will appear at the 6th seal",

that is denial of the Bible. Because you are not teaching from the Bible you are not a Christian

I wonder whether you are one of those "instead of", "anti"-guys, who were supposed to show at the last days.

I know that despite at the moment you hate opposition, the word of God will not come back empty.

I already see good signs. You stopped calling book of Revelation by the name Revelations as you used to do. It means that you opened the Bible, read the Title, and found out that it is called Revelation, not Revelations. That is a good start.

[Awoke]

I'm not trying to win anyone over to any church. Matter of fact, its seems the other way around. It seems you and G2rad are hell bent on turning people away.


WTF? Seriously, WTF? I am on the hardest search for truth in the roots of Christianity that I can think of. I don't know anyone that is trying to get through the lies and decpetions built up over the last 2000 years as much as I am.

Because I am not content to buy into a new-age cultists twisted doctrines and non-scriptural interpretations, that makes me "hell bent on turning people away from Christ"?

7th, swallow your ego and step back from this cultist dogma.




You dont want salvation then so be it.........to the pit you will go. God isnt hard up for anyone of us or you with your attitude........



So considerate of you to judge me, and save my Lord Jesus the hassle.



we and you need God! Free will is awesome isnt it? But if you do you want paradise you are still going to have to go through Christ and humbly I might add.


I agree. Take your own advice and stop acting like an all-knowing elitist. Humble your heart, break away from your cult and search the scriptures and pray for truth and discernment.



You can take the easy road now or take the hard road of being ruled with a rod of iron and tested all over again when satan is released for a short season.


Satan rules this world right now.
Do more reading of God's word and less listening to Murray.
His aloof indifference to "winning over converts" is all part of the act.

[7th trump]

that everything for us to know is in the Bible.


then why don't you believe the Bible? :oo-->

the Bible says that the rider will appear at the 4-th seal

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

you claimed that "the rider will appear at the 6th seal",

that is denial of the Bible. Because you are not teaching from the Bible you are not a Christian

I wonder whether you are one of those "instead of", "anti"-guys, who were supposed to show at the last days.

I know that despite at the moment you hate opposition, the word of God will not come back empty.

I already see good signs. You stopped calling book of Revelation by the name Revelations as you used to do. It means that you opened the Bible, read the Title, and found out that it is called Revelation, not Revelations. That is a good start.

You dont even know what seals are do you?
The fourth seal says nothing about when satan is kicked to earth nor that of war in heaven between Michael and his angels and satan and his angels. Its describing satan is given power unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. Nothing of when this happens.
Details g2rad..........details.
Seals are different than trumpets and vials.

[7th trump]

I'm not trying to win anyone over to any church. Matter of fact, its seems the other way around. It seems you and G2rad are hell bent on turning people away.


WTF? Seriously, WTF? I am on the hardest search for truth in the roots of Christianity that I can think of. I don't know anyone that is trying to get through the lies and decpetions built up over the last 2000 years as much as I am.

Because I am not content to buy into a new-age cultists twisted doctrines and non-scriptural interpretations, that makes me "hell bent on turning people away from Christ"?

7th, swallow your ego and step back from this cultist dogma.




You dont want salvation then so be it.........to the pit you will go. God isnt hard up for anyone of us or you with your attitude........



So considerate of you to judge me, and save my Lord Jesus the hassle.



we and you need God! Free will is awesome isnt it? But if you do you want paradise you are still going to have to go through Christ and humbly I might add.


I agree. Take your own advice and stop acting like an all-knowing elitist. Humble your heart, break away from your cult and search the scriptures and pray for truth and discernment.



You can take the easy road now or take the hard road of being ruled with a rod of iron and tested all over again when satan is released for a short season.


Satan rules this world right now.
Do more reading of God's word and less listening to Murray.
His aloof indifference to "winning over converts" is all part of the act.

What dont you understand about turning people away. You are calling Murray a cultist when all Murray is guilty of is fine combing the scriptures and taking them back to their original language to proof check the translaters old english into modern day english so nothing is lost.


You've never watched Murray before so what is it you know about him besides the ilk opinion you buddy up to?

[ximmy]

I'm not trying to win anyone over to any church. Matter of fact, its seems the other way around. It seems you and G2rad are hell bent on turning people away.


WTF? Seriously, WTF? I am on the hardest search for truth in the roots of Christianity that I can think of. I don't know anyone that is trying to get through the lies and decpetions built up over the last 2000 years as much as I am.

Because I am not content to buy into a new-age cultists twisted doctrines and non-scriptural interpretations, that makes me "hell bent on turning people away from Christ"?

7th, swallow your ego and step back from this cultist dogma.




You dont want salvation then so be it.........to the pit you will go. God isnt hard up for anyone of us or you with your attitude........



So considerate of you to judge me, and save my Lord Jesus the hassle.



we and you need God! Free will is awesome isnt it? But if you do you want paradise you are still going to have to go through Christ and humbly I might add.


I agree. Take your own advice and stop acting like an all-knowing elitist. Humble your heart, break away from your cult and search the scriptures and pray for truth and discernment.



You can take the easy road now or take the hard road of being ruled with a rod of iron and tested all over again when satan is released for a short season.


Satan rules this world right now.
Do more reading of God's word and less listening to Murray.
His aloof indifference to "winning over converts" is all part of the act.

What dont you understand about turning people away. You are calling Murray a cultist when all Murray is guilty of is fine combing the scriptures and taking them back to their original language to proof check the translaters old english into modern day english so nothing is lost.


You've never watched Murray before so what is it you know about him besides the ilk opinion you buddy up to?


"or while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Murray" (1 cor. 3:4)

[Awoke]

You're right. I have not watched Murray or read his interpretations.
I am basing my statements off of the posts that you are making, and those posts are my only exposure to the Murray doctrine.

For a long time I have straight out questioned you on where you are getting this information from, when you would make statements regarding scriptures, and state your sects interpretation as "Fact". You were never forthcoming with an answer for me, so I automatically assumed you were involved in a cult.

A lot of the stuff you post, I disagree with. If I tell you I disagree, you tell me (pretentiously) that I "obviously don't have a clue" about whatever it is that we are discussing.

Let me tell you something brother. Jesus knows my heart, and knows I love Him, and knows how I conduct myself. He knows my stengths and weakness, my triumphs and my failures.

That's good enough for me. I praise and worship Him, and I don't care about Murrays elitist interpretations of scripture that usually seem to no make any sense anyways.

[7th trump]

You're right. I have not watched Murray or read his interpretations.
I am basing my statements off of the posts that you are making, and those posts are my only exposure to the Murray doctrine.
(THOUGHT SO)
For a long time I have straight out questioned you on where you are getting this information from, when you would make statements regarding scriptures, and state your sects interpretation as "Fact". You were never forthcoming with an answer for me, so I automatically assumed you were involved in a cult.(I base the facts knowing that other books confirm it as the truth.)
A lot of the stuff you post, I disagree with. If I tell you I disagree, you tell me (pretentiously) that I "obviously don't have a clue" about whatever it is that we are discussing. (You dont because you dont see the fact that your interpretation doesnt hold water to whatother Books confirm)
Let me tell you something brother. Jesus knows my heart, and knows I love Him, and knows how I conduct myself. He knows my stengths and weakness, my triumphs and my failures.
( I'm sure you do love him, but God says anyone taking the number of the beast is punished regardless if they've sat in a pew all their lives. You are no different nor special. God is not a respecter of persons. Even the most beautiful of women are going to get thrown into the firey pit if they dont repent.)That's good enough for me. I praise and worship Him, and I don't care about Murrays elitist interpretations of scripture that usually seem to no make any sense anyways. (That still wont let you nor anyone else go past start and collect $200.00 for whoring after the fake messiah)

[DMac]

7th trump,

What makes you so confident people on this board are going to fall for the fake messiah?

[7th trump]

7th trump,

What makes you so confident people on this board are going to fall for the fake messiah?

Its written the world is going to whore after the fake. Not everyone of course but many!

[sirgonzo420]

Back to the video...

It's certainly a reflection, but not of the fire. It is a sheet draped over something and appears to be blown by wind or a fan.


It looks like the "flickering" of the "horseman" matches the "flickering" of the flames to me.

[Awoke]

7th Trump. You just called my worship of Jesus Christ "whoring after the false messiah".

This cult has you messed up beyond words, and you don't even see it.

[Horn]

7th Trump. You just called my worship of Jesus Christ "whoring after the false messiah".

This cult has you messed up beyond words, and you don't even see it.


I was told I need Jesus last night when I browsed the internet & played some Metallica. :conf:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i02Gye_HxoY

[Antonio]

Lindsey Lohan is charged with grand theft and you are still chewing on some pale horse meat jerkey?
almost 1200 views already?

[sirgonzo420]

Nah, it has nothing to do with the flames, the direction of the reflection is almost 180 degrees from the flames


Did you notice the reflection of the streetlights too? They all seem to move at the same pace with the other reflection.

[7th trump]

7th Trump. You just called my worship of Jesus Christ "whoring after the false messiah".

This cult has you messed up beyond words, and you don't even see it.

You damn well know what I said Awoke. Damn well!
I never said anything like that and if you think thats what I said its you with the messed up bible studies. What I said is you better understand who comes first because if you dont and you are deceived you will be worshipping satan, an imposter Christ, or "instead of Christ" as its put in the original Greek thinking its Jesus Christ returning.
According to the Word of God a fake messiah appears at the 6th trumpet deceiving the world that he is the real messiah. This fake is given powers to fool the world. I mean gee-wiz how hard is it follow the Word of God?
So when this fake appears and you are not changed in a twinkle of an eye as Jesus Christ says will happen at the last or 7th trump you should think about who this imposter messiah is before joining in on this church revival.
Thats the message Murray teaches. Its the same message and reason why Christ only approved 2 of 7 churches, Philadelphia and Smirna!

[onceseen]

Said another way, my Father is not the Father of confusion. The word is so simple a child can understand it. The bad guys always try to complicate the simple.

dys



7th, I saw your response above and I respect that you have your own opinion on the matter. I'm not trying to tear you down, so I hope you don't take my post too personally.

I have always described myself as a big-picture person. I've related to the phrase 'you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows' on this site before (it was a sig line from Gim1). When I come across a guy like Murray preaching stuff that is so far from orthodox Christianity, I ask myself a few questions...

1. Who, in the whole history of the Christian church has preached such things as fundamentals of Christian theology?

As far as I can reckon, I would say none. These are theories that are exclusively formed and espoused by Murray, as far as I can tell.

2. Does it make sense that a revelation that can lead to salvation would be revealed only in the last couple of decades? Has the truth of the gospel been kept from us until an Arnold Murray, or Charles T. Russell, or Ellen White, or Joseph Smith finally ‘figured it all out’ by having had a new revelation that enlightens us with new information?

I would say the church, via the Spirit, has faithfully carried the message down through the ages (they did provide the text from which Murray is reading), and has all the while saved. These 'latter day' revelations claiming ‘no one else knows anything’ disregard the history of Christianity. Many false teachers follow this pattern. Russell, Smith, White, and Murray are prime examples of this. They all claim to be the 'remnant', and every other professing Christian is lost and mired in heresy. Why do you think the Lord Jesus would operate in that manner? Were all of the early Christians wrong? Why is this ‘truth’ only being revealed now, exclusively through Murray? He is in essence saying that those who provided him with the book that he is teaching from, all had it wrong. Seems very contradictory. And lastly, the 'age of apostacy' is certainly described as a latter day event......so why would orthodox, historical teaching be suspect. I would contend it is 'new revelations' that are.



You also mention Murray’s pedigree above. Don’t you find it odd that there has been such a controversy over his lack of proof of any theological doctorate? He does refer to himself as a Dr. but apparently refuses to produce any proof of such. He has also proven a failure in prophetic vision as per his statements regarding the beginning of Armageddon. Again, he follows the likes of Russell, Smith and White.

I want to be very clear that my personal motivation in my original post stands…to alert others to what I think are very controversial and potentially dangerous teachings, and not to launch a personal attack against you. I don’t intend to debate the many specifics beyond what I’ve already mentioned about Murray. Others reading here are clever, and hopefully wise enough to research him and figure these things out for themselves.

[onceseen]

You know, this thread is a very good lesson in heresy. I'm still just a baby Christian, but my experience is that anytime someone wants to use Yahweh as God's name, they are bad bad news. A works doctrine is another red flag. 7th, I'm hoping that you have been deceived and you are simply a pawn in this whole thing. If so, I urge you to read the bible and to pray to the one true God. That is, Jesus Christ of Nazareth's Father, the God of Abraham, the God of Jacob, etc...

Let me take this opportunity to praise the one true God. He is a God of astounding love, mercy, and compassion. The gift of God's grace is awesome beyond the point of human understanding. Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the way.

dys

[Awoke]

It is so good to have you back, Dysgenic.

[7th trump]

You know, this thread is a very good lesson in heresy. I'm still just a baby Christian, but my experience is that anytime someone wants to use Yahweh as God's name, they are bad bad news. A works doctrine is another red flag. 7th, I'm hoping that you have been deceived and you are simply a pawn in this whole thing. If so, I urge you to read the bible and to pray to the one true God. That is, Jesus Christ of Nazareth's Father, the God of Abraham, the God of Jacob, etc...

Let me take this opportunity to praise the one true God. He is a God of astounding love, mercy, and compassion. The gift of God's grace is awesome beyond the point of human understanding. Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the way.

dys

Wow....!
A professed "baby" Christian that for some off kilter reason or another beleives the name Yahweh is bad bad news. Makes you go............Huh???
This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. All they know is how to sit and praise, but nothing of the true Word of Yahweh. They dont do the work that Yahweh asks them to do, "sheperding", warning others or looking after the flock because they know nothing of whats coming. They have no idea what "my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" even means.
I cant argue that Yahweh is merciful with love and compassion. However, you take "grace" out of context. Since you are a "baby" I'll tell you what "grace" is. Its unmerited favor. A favor from Yahweh Himself gifted to you that you dont deserve.

[7th trump]

Said another way, my Father is not the Father of confusion. The word is so simple a child can understand it. The bad guys always try to complicate the simple.

dys



7th, I saw your response above and I respect that you have your own opinion on the matter. I'm not trying to tear you down, so I hope you don't take my post too personally.

I have always described myself as a big-picture person. I've related to the phrase 'you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows' on this site before (it was a sig line from Gim1). When I come across a guy like Murray preaching stuff that is so far from orthodox Christianity, I ask myself a few questions...

1. Who, in the whole history of the Christian church has preached such things as fundamentals of Christian theology?

As far as I can reckon, I would say none. These are theories that are exclusively formed and espoused by Murray, as far as I can tell.

2. Does it make sense that a revelation that can lead to salvation would be revealed only in the last couple of decades? Has the truth of the gospel been kept from us until an Arnold Murray, or Charles T. Russell, or Ellen White, or Joseph Smith finally ‘figured it all out’ by having had a new revelation that enlightens us with new information?

I would say the church, via the Spirit, has faithfully carried the message down through the ages (they did provide the text from which Murray is reading), and has all the while saved. These 'latter day' revelations claiming ‘no one else knows anything’ disregard the history of Christianity. Many false teachers follow this pattern. Russell, Smith, White, and Murray are prime examples of this. They all claim to be the 'remnant', and every other professing Christian is lost and mired in heresy. Why do you think the Lord Jesus would operate in that manner? Were all of the early Christians wrong? Why is this ‘truth’ only being revealed now, exclusively through Murray? He is in essence saying that those who provided him with the book that he is teaching from, all had it wrong. Seems very contradictory. And lastly, the 'age of apostacy' is certainly described as a latter day event......so why would orthodox, historical teaching be suspect. I would contend it is 'new revelations' that are.



You also mention Murray’s pedigree above. Don’t you find it odd that there has been such a controversy over his lack of proof of any theological doctorate? He does refer to himself as a Dr. but apparently refuses to produce any proof of such. He has also proven a failure in prophetic vision as per his statements regarding the beginning of Armageddon. Again, he follows the likes of Russell, Smith and White.

I want to be very clear that my personal motivation in my original post stands…to alert others to what I think are very controversial and potentially dangerous teachings, and not to launch a personal attack against you. I don’t intend to debate the many specifics beyond what I’ve already mentioned about Murray. Others reading here are clever, and hopefully wise enough to research him and figure these things out for themselves.



You know onceseen these words:

my Father is not the Father of confusion. The word is so simple a child can understand it. are from Murray

[7th trump]

For those who dont kow who Arnold murray is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNGqBhVtCOk&playnext=1&list=PLA2C15DA80C758DE4

[7th trump]

Another good one from Arnold about the first earth age as written in the Bible he holding and reading from.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWvJGLjomLU

[Awoke]

Just one last statement before I walk away from this fruitless conversation:

Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ.

That is all.

[7th trump]

And another

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUHN0g5n3lE

[7th trump]

Just one last statement before I walk away from this fruitless conversation:

Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ.

That is all.

Yeah thats like you isnt it.....................walking away!

And "Faith" consists more than just beleiving.
You are not rewarded in heaven from your faith now are we Awoke?
Last I read the Bible it said we are rewarded for our works. The very robe you wear in heaven is made from your works here on earth.
Beleive what you will Awoke, but laziness isnt getting you any reward.

[Awoke]

You're wrong 7th.

The scriptures are clear that it is faith in Jesus that saves you. Once you accept Jesus, the works come naturally because you want to perform them, but the works are not your ticket into heaven. Your faith and love for Christ is.

That is just another area your cult has deviated away from the scriptures.

Calling me lazy and challenging me for walking away from this thread is laughable.
The true Christian members here have offered you a lifeline out of your pit if deception, and you refuse to take that lifeline and prefer to wallow in your pit.

So, we have done our part by trying to show you the truth, you reject it and defend your cult, I shake the dust from my feet and leave it up to God from here.

[7th trump]

You're wrong 7th.

The scriptures are clear that it is faith in Jesus that saves you. Once you accept Jesus, the works come naturally because you want to perform them, but the works are not your ticket into heaven. Your faith and love for Christ is.

That is just another area your cult has deviated away from the scriptures.

Calling me lazy and challenging me for walking away from this thread is laughable.
The true Christian members here have offered you a lifeline out of your pit if deception, and you refuse to take that lifeline and prefer to wallow in your pit.

So, we have done our part by trying to show you the truth, you reject it and defend your cult, I shake the dust from my feet and leave it up to God from here.


This is about the only thing you've said that makes any sense.


The scriptures are clear that it is faith in Jesus that saves you. Once you accept Jesus, the works come naturally because you want to perform them, but the works are not your ticket into heaven. Your faith and love for Christ is.

If you werent bent on convicting me of some sort of cult you'd see that I'm defending my position that you say faith alone will save you that I disagree with.
My arguement, Awoke, you say is wrong is this.
You say a person can beleive in Christ all day long. I say ok and I have no problem with that, but what I say is if they are a murderer, a theif, liar, an adulterer to name a few they are not getting in.
Personally I think you are argueing semantics for the sake of argueing.

[Awoke]

You say a person can beleive in Christ all day long. I say ok and I have no problem with that, but what I say is if they are a murderer, a theif, liar, an adulterer to name a few they are not getting in.


I think that's pretty elemetary.

However, even murderers, thieves and liars etc can be forgiven. That is the Lord's decision, not mine.

[7th trump]

You say a person can beleive in Christ all day long. I say ok and I have no problem with that, but what I say is if they are a murderer, a theif, liar, an adulterer to name a few they are not getting in.


I think that's pretty elemetary.

However, even murderers, thieves and liars etc can be forgiven. That is the Lord's decision, not mine.

The theives and liars can repent in the flesh, but if they dont repent before giving up the spirit the book of Life determines which side of the gulf they are on.
Murderers.................can only receive forgiveness in heaven. They are to get a trial here to determine foul play or accident. If its foul play then we are to dispatch them to God as He says we are so there can be a trial in heaven with the murdered and the murderer.

[Awoke]

You know, you accused me of just arguing semantics for the sake of arguing.

That is not the case. The reason I have taken a stance on this is because your salvation hinges on it.

To non-Christians, this discussion would seem like a couple Christians arguing minute details in doctrine. But to true Christians, this discussion is a serious dive into the dangers of modern-day "saints" re-interpreting the Word of the Lord, which can have serious consequences in the afterlife.

I am not claiming to be all-knowing, or a perfect example of Christianity. I can not say the same for you.

Jesus Christ is the Lord, and faith in him is salvation. It really is that simple. When people complicate it, they are up to no good. Get back to the roots. Faith in Christ.

[Horn]

I'll tell you what "grace" is. Its unmerited favor. A favor from Yahweh Himself gifted to you that you dont deserve.


Now go lay on the nail board until your tears mix with blood.

Maybe you'll learn who to tithe to, if the pain don't kill ya first!

[7th trump]

You know, you accused me of just arguing semantics for the sake of arguing.

That is not the case. The reason I have taken a stance on this is because your salvation hinges on it.

To non-Christians, this discussion would seem like a couple Christians arguing minute details in doctrine. But to true Christians, this discussion is a serious dive into the dangers of modern-day "saints" re-interpreting the Word of the Lord, which can have serious consequences in the afterlife.

I am not claiming to be all-knowing, or a perfect example of Christianity. I can not say the same for you.

Jesus Christ is the Lord, and faith in him is salvation. It really is that simple. When people complicate it, they are up to no good. Get back to the roots. Faith in Christ.

Well I guess when I get home I'll have to look for the scripture (have it written down somewhere) that says we are to dispatch the murderer for trial in heaven so you cannot hide behind this "complicated" excuse. Kind of like when G2rad left himself open puttig his foot in his mouth about the 4th seal being before the 6th seal. I guess he showed everyone here just how much of a "christian" he really thought he was. Havent heard from him in a while!

[7th trump]

I'll tell you what "grace" is. Its unmerited favor. A favor from Yahweh Himself gifted to you that you dont deserve.


Now go lay on the nail board until your tears mix with blood.

Maybe you'll learn who to tithe to, if the pain don't kill ya first!



Another one who wants to be shown just where he stands too?

[G2Rad]

Wow....!
A professed "baby" Christian that for some off kilter reason or another beleives the name Yahweh is bad bad news. Makes you go............Huh???
This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. All they know is how to sit and praise, but nothing of the true Word of Yahweh.

here is what the Bible says about "baby" Christians

For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

[7th trump]

I'll tell you what "grace" is. Its unmerited favor. A favor from Yahweh Himself gifted to you that you dont deserve.


Now go lay on the nail board until your tears mix with blood.

Maybe you'll learn who to tithe to, if the pain don't kill ya first!



Only idiots do publicity stunts like that.

Do you handle poisonous snakes as pets and claim they cannot harm you because you have the "faith"?

[7th trump]

Wow....!
A professed "baby" Christian that for some off kilter reason or another beleives the name Yahweh is bad bad news. Makes you go............Huh???
This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. All they know is how to sit and praise, but nothing of the true Word of Yahweh.

here is what the Bible says about "baby" Christians

For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.



Well then maybe you should define your version of "baby" before spouting stuff. Who was to know what was meant by "baby". Did you care to ask onceseen before concluding your opinioon of baby and then bring in God as a witness to this stunt?
And did you happen to find the subject this verse is talking about before cut and pasting?
Its always nice to know what the subject is before using a verse out of context to fit your round peg into a square hole G2rad.
Another thing, in the kingdom of God there is no flesh therefore nothing is born of woman there. This is a verse of stature that you are trying to cram down the throats and passing off to justify your incompetence.

[G2Rad]

Well then maybe you should define your version of "baby" before spouting stuff. Who was to know what was meant by "baby". Did you care to ask onceseen before concluding your opinioon of baby and then bring in God as a witness to this stunt?
And did you happen to find the subject this verse is talking about before cut and pasting?
Its always nice to know what the subject is before using a verse out of context to fit your round peg into a square hole G2rad.


I can not know his heart, I am no god. But I believe he is a newcomer. a new born Christian. just got the vision. Saw the Kingdom of God.
does not know much yet, like newborn.

and the passage that I quoted says that even the one who just got born-again, even though he does not know much of the Bible yet, still is greater even than the greatest prophets of the Old Testament, who were saved not through faith in Jesus but through works

[undgrd]

Well I guess when I get home I'll have to look for the scripture (have it written down somewhere) that says we are to dispatch the murderer for trial in heaven so you cannot hide behind this "complicated" excuse.



Does seem kind of complicated when there's a commandment telling you not to kill people. Then, in the above, you're telling us the bible tells us to dispatch people guilty of murder for trial in heaven. Seems odd that God would need our help judging murderers.

[G2Rad]

He can speak for himself.

I am very happy to see him again.

welcome back, old friend.

[G2Rad]

19 And they asked them, saying, Is this your son, who ye say was born
blind? how then doth he now see?

20 His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son,
and that he was born blind:

21 But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his
eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself.

22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the
Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ,
he should be put out of the synagogue.

23 Therefore said his parents, He is of age; ask him.

24 Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him,
Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner.

25 He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one
thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.

[Awoke]

Does seem kind of complicated when there's a commandment telling you not to kill people. Then, in the above, you're telling us the bible tells us to dispatch people guilty of murder for trial in heaven. Seems odd that God would need our help judging murderers.



The actual translation is "Thou shall not Murder" which is quite different than killing.

But I don't believe that there are any New Testament scriptures that promote killing sinners in order to hasten their judgement by God.

7th will have to post that one if it exists.




and the passage that I quoted says that even the one who just got born-again, even though he does not know much of the Bible yet, still is greater even than the greatest prophets of the Old Testament, who were saved not through faith in Jesus but through works

Yes. To put it simply:

Old Testament = Salvation through works
New Testament = Salvation through Faith in Christ



Well I guess when I get home I'll have to look for the scripture (have it written down somewhere) that says we are to dispatch the murderer for trial in heaven so you cannot hide behind this "complicated" excuse.


You are abrasive, pretentious, Dogmatic, a wannabe elitist, and most importantly, you are an accusser, and we all know who inspires accussers.
You are being deceived and you post like you are full of demonic hatred.
You are hell-bent on twisting scriptures out of context, and I will have no part in it.

Lastly, the fourth seal indeed is opened before the sixth seal.
(Technically it is open just before the fifth seal, but I don't want to confuse you with all those details)


If you need help understanding that concept, refer to this instructional video from 1:55

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xyyd8_holy-hand-grenade_fun

[onceseen]

You know, this thread is a very good lesson in heresy. I'm still just a baby Christian, but my experience is that anytime someone wants to use Yahweh as God's name, they are bad bad news. A works doctrine is another red flag. 7th, I'm hoping that you have been deceived and you are simply a pawn in this whole thing. If so, I urge you to read the bible and to pray to the one true God. That is, Jesus Christ of Nazareth's Father, the God of Abraham, the God of Jacob, etc...

Let me take this opportunity to praise the one true God. He is a God of astounding love, mercy, and compassion. The gift of God's grace is awesome beyond the point of human understanding. Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the way.

dys

Wow....!
A professed "baby" Christian that for some off kilter reason or another beleives the name Yahweh is bad bad news. Makes you go............Huh???
This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. All they know is how to sit and praise, but nothing of the true Word of Yahweh. They dont do the work that Yahweh asks them to do, "sheperding", warning others or looking after the flock because they know nothing of whats coming. They have no idea what "my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" even means.
I cant argue that Yahweh is merciful with love and compassion. However, you take "grace" out of context. Since you are a "baby" I'll tell you what "grace" is. Its unmerited favor. A favor from Yahweh Himself gifted to you that you dont deserve.


First of all, the term 'baby Christian' as I understand it, means 'new Christian'. The fact that you would use my disclosure that I am new at this as an opportunity to discredit me is pretty indicting in itself. This type of opportunism is one of the hallmarks of antichrist spirit; it is also antithetical to your claims of doing good works. Actually, a lot of what you say doesn't reconcile with what and who you claim to be.

Galatians 5:22-23
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

I ask you honestly, does this sound like you?

Next, onto the Yahweh question. My experience (and I admit it isn't extensive) is that those using what is generally called the sacred name doctrine tend to preach works over faith (like you), they tend to preach the Satan's Seed doctrine (like you, even though it has already been refuted by scripture), and a lot of them tend to be Jewish.

As far as the true word of God, I offer this passage:
Genesis 4:1
And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

Is this passage, in your opinion, the fake word of God? How can you possibly read this passage and conclude that Cain was the son of Satan?

dys

[onceseen]

Said another way, my Father is not the Father of confusion. The word is so simple a child can understand it. The bad guys always try to complicate the simple.

dys



7th, I saw your response above and I respect that you have your own opinion on the matter. I'm not trying to tear you down, so I hope you don't take my post too personally.

I have always described myself as a big-picture person. I've related to the phrase 'you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows' on this site before (it was a sig line from Gim1). When I come across a guy like Murray preaching stuff that is so far from orthodox Christianity, I ask myself a few questions...

1. Who, in the whole history of the Christian church has preached such things as fundamentals of Christian theology?

As far as I can reckon, I would say none. These are theories that are exclusively formed and espoused by Murray, as far as I can tell.

2. Does it make sense that a revelation that can lead to salvation would be revealed only in the last couple of decades? Has the truth of the gospel been kept from us until an Arnold Murray, or Charles T. Russell, or Ellen White, or Joseph Smith finally ‘figured it all out’ by having had a new revelation that enlightens us with new information?

I would say the church, via the Spirit, has faithfully carried the message down through the ages (they did provide the text from which Murray is reading), and has all the while saved. These 'latter day' revelations claiming ‘no one else knows anything’ disregard the history of Christianity. Many false teachers follow this pattern. Russell, Smith, White, and Murray are prime examples of this. They all claim to be the 'remnant', and every other professing Christian is lost and mired in heresy. Why do you think the Lord Jesus would operate in that manner? Were all of the early Christians wrong? Why is this ‘truth’ only being revealed now, exclusively through Murray? He is in essence saying that those who provided him with the book that he is teaching from, all had it wrong. Seems very contradictory. And lastly, the 'age of apostacy' is certainly described as a latter day event......so why would orthodox, historical teaching be suspect. I would contend it is 'new revelations' that are.



You also mention Murray’s pedigree above. Don’t you find it odd that there has been such a controversy over his lack of proof of any theological doctorate? He does refer to himself as a Dr. but apparently refuses to produce any proof of such. He has also proven a failure in prophetic vision as per his statements regarding the beginning of Armageddon. Again, he follows the likes of Russell, Smith and White.

I want to be very clear that my personal motivation in my original post stands…to alert others to what I think are very controversial and potentially dangerous teachings, and not to launch a personal attack against you. I don’t intend to debate the many specifics beyond what I’ve already mentioned about Murray. Others reading here are clever, and hopefully wise enough to research him and figure these things out for themselves.



You know onceseen these words:

my Father is not the Father of confusion. The word is so simple a child can understand it. are from Murray


1 Corinthians 14:33 (King James Version)

33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

dys

[7th trump]

Said another way, my Father is not the Father of confusion. The word is so simple a child can understand it. The bad guys always try to complicate the simple.

dys



7th, I saw your response above and I respect that you have your own opinion on the matter. I'm not trying to tear you down, so I hope you don't take my post too personally.

I have always described myself as a big-picture person. I've related to the phrase 'you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows' on this site before (it was a sig line from Gim1). When I come across a guy like Murray preaching stuff that is so far from orthodox Christianity, I ask myself a few questions...

1. Who, in the whole history of the Christian church has preached such things as fundamentals of Christian theology?

As far as I can reckon, I would say none. These are theories that are exclusively formed and espoused by Murray, as far as I can tell.

2. Does it make sense that a revelation that can lead to salvation would be revealed only in the last couple of decades? Has the truth of the gospel been kept from us until an Arnold Murray, or Charles T. Russell, or Ellen White, or Joseph Smith finally ‘figured it all out’ by having had a new revelation that enlightens us with new information?

I would say the church, via the Spirit, has faithfully carried the message down through the ages (they did provide the text from which Murray is reading), and has all the while saved. These 'latter day' revelations claiming ‘no one else knows anything’ disregard the history of Christianity. Many false teachers follow this pattern. Russell, Smith, White, and Murray are prime examples of this. They all claim to be the 'remnant', and every other professing Christian is lost and mired in heresy. Why do you think the Lord Jesus would operate in that manner? Were all of the early Christians wrong? Why is this ‘truth’ only being revealed now, exclusively through Murray? He is in essence saying that those who provided him with the book that he is teaching from, all had it wrong. Seems very contradictory. And lastly, the 'age of apostacy' is certainly described as a latter day event......so why would orthodox, historical teaching be suspect. I would contend it is 'new revelations' that are.



You also mention Murray’s pedigree above. Don’t you find it odd that there has been such a controversy over his lack of proof of any theological doctorate? He does refer to himself as a Dr. but apparently refuses to produce any proof of such. He has also proven a failure in prophetic vision as per his statements regarding the beginning of Armageddon. Again, he follows the likes of Russell, Smith and White.

I want to be very clear that my personal motivation in my original post stands…to alert others to what I think are very controversial and potentially dangerous teachings, and not to launch a personal attack against you. I don’t intend to debate the many specifics beyond what I’ve already mentioned about Murray. Others reading here are clever, and hopefully wise enough to research him and figure these things out for themselves.



You know onceseen these words:

my Father is not the Father of confusion. The word is so simple a child can understand it. are from Murray


1 Corinthians 14:33 (King James Version)

33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

dys




Look at this way.
The parable of the fig tree came to pass in 1948 and that generation wont come to pass until all prophecy is fullfilled........with me so far?
That generation is getting grey hairs to say the least and more and more prophecies are coming true at break neck speed just as the good Book says it does.
Anyway if you hold true to your word of being a little known to the Word you know that before this is all said and done the anti-christ appears to deceive the world.
Maybe its you that is confused in this late hour before the anti-christ appears that if the truth tapped you on the shoulder you wouldnt, or couldnt, recognize it. Total stranger to you!
Lets be real here. The fake christ fools the world and you are at a point of entering confusion at this late hour.
Kind of like now. You can read from the book but you cannot seperate the subject from the object to understand which is which. Kind of like what G2rad does. Spouts out some scripture and yet doesnt understand it and completely takes it out of context to support his belief. I mean really he fubared the seals and made a complete ignoramous out of himself. Really made Arnold shine!

Saints?.....any idea who they are dys?

[onceseen]

The good book admonishes me to test the spirits. Grad passed the test. Can you? Question not asked sarcastically.

dys











Said another way, my Father is not the Father of confusion. The word is so simple a child can understand it. The bad guys always try to complicate the simple.

dys



7th, I saw your response above and I respect that you have your own opinion on the matter. I'm not trying to tear you down, so I hope you don't take my post too personally.

I have always described myself as a big-picture person. I've related to the phrase 'you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows' on this site before (it was a sig line from Gim1). When I come across a guy like Murray preaching stuff that is so far from orthodox Christianity, I ask myself a few questions...

1. Who, in the whole history of the Christian church has preached such things as fundamentals of Christian theology?

As far as I can reckon, I would say none. These are theories that are exclusively formed and espoused by Murray, as far as I can tell.

2. Does it make sense that a revelation that can lead to salvation would be revealed only in the last couple of decades? Has the truth of the gospel been kept from us until an Arnold Murray, or Charles T. Russell, or Ellen White, or Joseph Smith finally ‘figured it all out’ by having had a new revelation that enlightens us with new information?

I would say the church, via the Spirit, has faithfully carried the message down through the ages (they did provide the text from which Murray is reading), and has all the while saved. These 'latter day' revelations claiming ‘no one else knows anything’ disregard the history of Christianity. Many false teachers follow this pattern. Russell, Smith, White, and Murray are prime examples of this. They all claim to be the 'remnant', and every other professing Christian is lost and mired in heresy. Why do you think the Lord Jesus would operate in that manner? Were all of the early Christians wrong? Why is this ‘truth’ only being revealed now, exclusively through Murray? He is in essence saying that those who provided him with the book that he is teaching from, all had it wrong. Seems very contradictory. And lastly, the 'age of apostacy' is certainly described as a latter day event......so why would orthodox, historical teaching be suspect. I would contend it is 'new revelations' that are.



You also mention Murray’s pedigree above. Don’t you find it odd that there has been such a controversy over his lack of proof of any theological doctorate? He does refer to himself as a Dr. but apparently refuses to produce any proof of such. He has also proven a failure in prophetic vision as per his statements regarding the beginning of Armageddon. Again, he follows the likes of Russell, Smith and White.

I want to be very clear that my personal motivation in my original post stands…to alert others to what I think are very controversial and potentially dangerous teachings, and not to launch a personal attack against you. I don’t intend to debate the many specifics beyond what I’ve already mentioned about Murray. Others reading here are clever, and hopefully wise enough to research him and figure these things out for themselves.



You know onceseen these words:

my Father is not the Father of confusion. The word is so simple a child can understand it. are from Murray


1 Corinthians 14:33 (King James Version)

33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

dys




Look at this way.
The parable of the fig tree came to pass in 1948 and that generation wont come to pass until all prophecy is fullfilled........with me so far?
That generation is getting grey hairs to say the least and more and more prophecies are coming true at break neck speed just as the good Book says it does.
Anyway if you hold true to your word of being a little known to the Word you know that before this is all said and done the anti-christ appears to deceive the world.
Maybe its you that is confused in this late hour before the anti-christ appears that if the truth tapped you on the shoulder you wouldnt, or couldnt, recognize it. Total stranger to you!
Lets be real here. The fake christ fools the world and you are at a point of entering confusion at this late hour.
Kind of like now. You can read from the book but you cannot seperate the subject from the object to understand which is which. Kind of like what G2rad does. Spouts out some scripture and yet doesnt understand it and completely takes it out of context to support his belief. I mean really he fubared the seals and made a complete ignoramous out of himself. Really made Arnold shine!

Saints?.....any idea who they are dys?

[ximmy]

For dys.
ximy

(Col. 2:4) I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments...

2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

2:18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.

19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

[7th trump]

The good book admonishes me to test the spirits. Grad passed the test. Can you? Question not asked sarcastically.

dys











Said another way, my Father is not the Father of confusion. The word is so simple a child can understand it. The bad guys always try to complicate the simple.

dys



7th, I saw your response above and I respect that you have your own opinion on the matter. I'm not trying to tear you down, so I hope you don't take my post too personally.

I have always described myself as a big-picture person. I've related to the phrase 'you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows' on this site before (it was a sig line from Gim1). When I come across a guy like Murray preaching stuff that is so far from orthodox Christianity, I ask myself a few questions...

1. Who, in the whole history of the Christian church has preached such things as fundamentals of Christian theology?

As far as I can reckon, I would say none. These are theories that are exclusively formed and espoused by Murray, as far as I can tell.

2. Does it make sense that a revelation that can lead to salvation would be revealed only in the last couple of decades? Has the truth of the gospel been kept from us until an Arnold Murray, or Charles T. Russell, or Ellen White, or Joseph Smith finally ‘figured it all out’ by having had a new revelation that enlightens us with new information?

I would say the church, via the Spirit, has faithfully carried the message down through the ages (they did provide the text from which Murray is reading), and has all the while saved. These 'latter day' revelations claiming ‘no one else knows anything’ disregard the history of Christianity. Many false teachers follow this pattern. Russell, Smith, White, and Murray are prime examples of this. They all claim to be the 'remnant', and every other professing Christian is lost and mired in heresy. Why do you think the Lord Jesus would operate in that manner? Were all of the early Christians wrong? Why is this ‘truth’ only being revealed now, exclusively through Murray? He is in essence saying that those who provided him with the book that he is teaching from, all had it wrong. Seems very contradictory. And lastly, the 'age of apostacy' is certainly described as a latter day event......so why would orthodox, historical teaching be suspect. I would contend it is 'new revelations' that are.



You also mention Murray’s pedigree above. Don’t you find it odd that there has been such a controversy over his lack of proof of any theological doctorate? He does refer to himself as a Dr. but apparently refuses to produce any proof of such. He has also proven a failure in prophetic vision as per his statements regarding the beginning of Armageddon. Again, he follows the likes of Russell, Smith and White.

I want to be very clear that my personal motivation in my original post stands…to alert others to what I think are very controversial and potentially dangerous teachings, and not to launch a personal attack against you. I don’t intend to debate the many specifics beyond what I’ve already mentioned about Murray. Others reading here are clever, and hopefully wise enough to research him and figure these things out for themselves.



You know onceseen these words:

my Father is not the Father of confusion. The word is so simple a child can understand it. are from Murray


1 Corinthians 14:33 (King James Version)

33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

dys




Look at this way.
The parable of the fig tree came to pass in 1948 and that generation wont come to pass until all prophecy is fullfilled........with me so far?
That generation is getting grey hairs to say the least and more and more prophecies are coming true at break neck speed just as the good Book says it does.
Anyway if you hold true to your word of being a little known to the Word you know that before this is all said and done the anti-christ appears to deceive the world.
Maybe its you that is confused in this late hour before the anti-christ appears that if the truth tapped you on the shoulder you wouldnt, or couldnt, recognize it. Total stranger to you!
Lets be real here. The fake christ fools the world and you are at a point of entering confusion at this late hour.
Kind of like now. You can read from the book but you cannot seperate the subject from the object to understand which is which. Kind of like what G2rad does. Spouts out some scripture and yet doesnt understand it and completely takes it out of context to support his belief. I mean really he fubared the seals and made a complete ignoramous out of himself. Really made Arnold shine!

Saints?.....any idea who they are dys?


How could G2rad pass any test?
He didnt even realize the trumpets arent even sounded until the seals are finished.
Like I said G2rad made Arnold shine
And what do you know about Arnold to pass judgement anyway.........you've never taken one second to listen to him.
Its foolish to judge someone with second hand knowledge based on an opinion.

Heck you didnt even know the trumpets arent sounded until basically the seals are opened............who you trying to pass off as.........Arnold?

[7th trump]

Here you go Dys. I dare you to take a little time with Arnold.
Its just audio.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxj2vvmvvrk&playnext=1&list=PLFC644B031AD48C3C


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhY6dNNsH6Y&feature=autoplay&list=PLFC644B031AD48C3C&index=25&playnext=2

If you dont want to listen to him then theres really no reason to go forward with this conversation ( I'm expecting you to take up this opportunity to use it as an excuse and not listen.)

[G2Rad]

As far as the true word of God, I offer this passage:
Genesis 4:1
And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

Is this passage, in your opinion, the fake word of God? How can you possibly read this passage and conclude that Cain was the son of Satan?
dys


Note how the simple question was dodged again. All the marks of deceiving lying spirit are manifest.

Genesis 4:1
And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
How can you possibly read this passage and conclude that Cain was the son of Satan?

[G2Rad]

I find it curious that 7th is trying to inject the idea that "the trumpets arent even sounded until the seals are finished".

Why is that so important for them? What are the enemy army trying to accomplish?

"the trumpets arent even sounded until the seals are finished" is false.

but, why that particular distortion is so important to whoever is channeling through Murray and Co?
:oo-->

[7th trump]

I find it curious that 7th is trying to inject the idea that "the trumpets arent even sounded until the seals are finished".

Why is that so important for them? What are the enemy army trying to accomplish?

"the trumpets arent even sounded until the seals are finished" is false.

but, why that particular distortion is so important to whoever is channeling through Murray and Co?
:oo-->

So far G2rad you,ve called God a liar twice now. And no I'm not referencing Arnold as God.
Arnold is just reciting out of the Bible word for word and chapter for chapter. Nothing is hidden or twisted by Arnold from his viewers. The daily Bible studies have a ticker at the bottom of the screen which is the same sripture that Arnold is reciting to you.
He does this so no one can say hes lying or a liar or twisting the Word.

You are not doing well G2rad.
Calling God a liar (twice) and bearing false witness against a man of the Word.
Not good G2rad.........not good!

On a personal note G2rad why are trying to turn the spot light around. You were caught with your hand in the cooky jar of ignorance and now you want to question why I brang it up? In doing so you called God a liar for the second time.
Do I need to remind you once again that particular verse that made you into a liar?

Its all important G2rad, every last detail is very important, right down to why theres silence in heaven for a half an hour. Very crucial to those with ears to hear and eyes to see.

And if you can prove its "false" by all means do tell!

[onceseen]

How could G2rad pass any test?

John 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
John 4:3
3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

For the record, I confess that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is come in the flesh. I ask you again, can you pass this test?


And what do you know about Arnold to pass judgement anyway.........you've never taken one second to listen to him.
Its foolish to judge someone with second hand knowledge based on an opinion.

I know very little about Arnold except what you have told us. Actually, I did try to watch one of his vids but the youtube clip wouldn't work. I did watch another one for about a minute. Regardless, I will make a deal with you: I will watch 2 of his videos from start to finish and even give you my feedback, if you simply answer the question responsively that I posed earlier in the thread-
How can you possibly read this passage and conclude that Cain was the son of Satan?

dys

[7th trump]

How could G2rad pass any test?

John 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
John 4:3
3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

For the record, I confess that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is come in the flesh. I ask you again, can you pass this test?


And what do you know about Arnold to pass judgement anyway.........you've never taken one second to listen to him.
Its foolish to judge someone with second hand knowledge based on an opinion.

I know very little about Arnold except what you have told us. Actually, I did try to watch one of his vids but the youtube clip wouldn't work. I did watch another one for about a minute. Regardless, I will make a deal with you: I will watch 2 of his videos from start to finish and even give you my feedback, if you simply answer the question responsively that I posed earlier in the thread-
How can you possibly read this passage and conclude that Cain was the son of Satan?

dys





What bible is the passage from?

[7th trump]

How could G2rad pass any test?

John 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
John 4:3
3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

For the record, I confess that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is come in the flesh. I ask you again, can you pass this test?


And what do you know about Arnold to pass judgement anyway.........you've never taken one second to listen to him.
Its foolish to judge someone with second hand knowledge based on an opinion.

I know very little about Arnold except what you have told us. Actually, I did try to watch one of his vids but the youtube clip wouldn't work. I did watch another one for about a minute. Regardless, I will make a deal with you: I will watch 2 of his videos from start to finish and even give you my feedback, if you simply answer the question responsively that I posed earlier in the thread-
How can you possibly read this passage and conclude that Cain was the son of Satan?

dys





I dont question Jesus came in the flesh. I confess to that as well.
The problem rests in His second coming, the 7th trumpet, where you guys are all up in a tizzy and lost.
Scipture says satan comes first before Christs return and the scripture is telling that satan comes play acting as Christ. satan fools the world into beleiving that he is christ, the spurious messiah or as the Greeks put it........the instead of christ, a fake christ.
But instead of looking at the scripture G2rad is out trying to discredit Arnold who's teaching that the word "anti" is "instead of", even agrees with what the greek says.
God says anybody taking the number is punished and you guys are saying the opposite. I beleive the scripture that anyone who takeths the number regardless if they are pew sitting life long church goers.............................they will wish the mountains to fall on them to cover their shame.......just as it says will happen. But you have G2rad trying to put round pegs in square holes calling God a liar and bearing false witness.

[MNeagle]

Why isn't this in the Religion section by now??

[G2Rad]

There are thousands of Jesuses in the flesh and only one Christ, the Lord God, the Creator.

So I wonder, could you be more specific?

[chad]

maybe you guys could take every topic and turn it in to an argument about which bible is the true bible or which religion is a true religion. oh wait, you already do that.

[onceseen]

There are thousands of Jesuses in the flesh and only one Christ, the Lord God, the Creator.

So I wonder, could you be more specific?


I've seen this trick before, too. You are a very wise man, sir.

dys

[7th trump]

There are thousands of Jesuses in the flesh and only one Christ, the Lord God, the Creator.

So I wonder, could you be more specific?

Thats more like you isnt G2rad.........I can deal with your childish behavior.
I wouldnt expect anything else from you.
Didnt you profess to being a muslim at one time?
Yeah I remember that thread....................who can take you seriously?

[G2Rad]

You are a very wise man, sir.


I am not. Lord God is.

[7th trump]

There are thousands of Jesuses in the flesh and only one Christ, the Lord God, the Creator.

So I wonder, could you be more specific?


I've seen this trick before, too. You are a very wise man, sir.

dys

Wise men dont call God a liar nor bear false witness against his brethren.
I wouldnt give as much as saying "God speed" to person calling God a liar otherwise you'll be held accountable for the same sins.

[7th trump]

You are a very wise man, sir.


I am not. Lord God is.

"LORD GOD"
HUH.......?

[Vendico]

Here you go Dys. I dare you to take a little time with Arnold.
Its just audio.


If you dont want to listen to him then theres really no reason to go forward with this conversation ( I'm expecting you to take up this opportunity to use it as an excuse and not listen.)


http://www.watchman.org/profile/murraypro.htm

[7th trump]

Here you go Dys. I dare you to take a little time with Arnold.
Its just audio.


If you dont want to listen to him then theres really no reason to go forward with this conversation ( I'm expecting you to take up this opportunity to use it as an excuse and not listen.)


http://www.watchman.org/profile/murraypro.htm


Yeah........so what!
Third party hearsay, opinion!
Ever read the Bible?
I bet you are among the many that hasnt and yet claim these goons at that site are of any authority.
Its amazing that a fake messiah will be able to fool the whole world and the elect (if it were possible) in beleiving this fake is the real mcCoy! And yet its been prophetized that it will happen!
Let the Word itself judge the man capable of reading it.
Theres a very good reason why God says "let those with ears hear and with eyes to see"!
I bet not one f u ck up from that crappy site even knows what G2rad just recently found out the hard way that the fine details consistant of knowing that the trumpets are not even sounded until all the seals are opened. And yet it's in black and white right before your eyes and most are still blind to the prophecy.
Why do you people have the audacity to bring mans opinion (the traditions of man) before God Himself?
Why?
You deserve the Lords day, the rule with a rod of iron. the whole thousand years of it.

[Bullion_Bob]

http://www.upload-image.org/out.php/i291_untitled-1-copy.jpg

http://www.upload-image.org/out.php/i293_9780060524111.jpg

[Awoke]

Funny how 7th trump automatically assumes that anyone who worships Jesus Christ is whoring after the false messiah, unless they believe in Arnold Murrays talmudic interpretations of the scriptures.

[G2Rad]

Just for the record,
I have never-ever said I used to be a Muslim.
7th is inventing things.

[7th trump]

Funny how 7th trump automatically assumes that anyone who worships Jesus Christ is whoring after the false messiah, unless they believe in Arnold Murrays talmudic interpretations of the scriptures.

And you take what I'm saying which is directly from the Bible out of context Awoke.
The problem, explaining once again, is that you deliberatley take out of context here what both God in scripture and Christ in the flesh say giving warning that satan appears as a spurious messiah before the return of the real Christ.

Its God who says the world is going to whore after the anti-christ, not me nor Arnold..........God Himself!
What I'm saying and Arnold is saying, from what God has instructed, is that you better understand who is who.
If you take the number of the beast (beleiving the fake is the real Christ) you are headed for destruction.

[7th trump]

Just for the record,
I have never-ever said I used to be a Muslim.
7th is inventing things.


I never said you were, I asked in an inquisitive way.
You were heavily defending muslims and muhammed a while back in a different thread.

[G2Rad]

I never said you were, I asked in an inquisitive way.
You were heavily defending muslims and muhammed a while back in a different thread.


that never happened either