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View Full Version : The capitalist vs. socialist dialectic



onceseen
9th February 2011, 10:38 AM
A dialectic (aka Hegelean dialectic) is a sophisticated form of a false dichotomy. It works like this: first, two seemingly contradictory ideologies are created. Next, the ideologies are advertised in the appropriate way so that people are conditioned to accept the ideologies as either/or (=the only alternatives). Most will accept this, some won't...regardless, the aim is to pigeonhole everyone into one of the two camps. Once that happens, the ideologies are subtly tweaked over time, this is called synthesis. This is another riff on the old 'incremental change', 'mission creep' strat. Of course, the tweaking is always done with a certain goal in mind, even if that goal is years or decades away. The changes are small and almost imperceptible. If you take a look at a mature dialectic, (example: republican vs. democrat) the ideologies eventually merge and become so similar it's tough to tell them apart.
Let's take a look at the capitalist vs. socialist dialectic. First, the capitalists: free markets are efficient. Entitlements sap morality and create dependence. Give a man a fish, he eats for a day...Productivity should be incentived and not vica versa. Unions are greedy. Less regulation. Blah blah blah, I won't rehash the ideology because everybody knows it.
The main problem with this ideology is that it seeks to blame the victims and not the perpetrators of our present condition. Those that are on 'entitlements' (and by the way, this term has been intentionally distorted to conflate charity with non charity) aren't the ones that have destroyed the system. Neither have public employees or even unions (this is what I call my 'get out your calculator' defense). Furthermore, why should people that have had their capacity to earn a living and support their families stolen from them by criminals be forced to suffer the consequences of the actions of others? It is nothing less than sheer hypocrisy to suggest that victims be held hyper accountable for a situation largely beyond their control, yet ignore the fact that our present system is set up largely to allow rich people to legally rob and oppress people.

On to the socialists: Governments require no profit to operate. Capitalism is predatory. We are all in this together. There is plenty to go around for everyone. Again, everybody knows the idealogy. Some comments-
It starts with the straw man argument that free markets don't work. We do not have a free market and we never have. The problem is not free markets, the problem is one of power derived from ill begotten money. Socialism proposes to solve the problem by handing ALL of the power to a known criminal organization and collectively cross our fingers. Collective accountability is really just a different flavor of mortgage tranches or companies sliced into a million different pieces or insurance; it's the reason we are in this mess in the first place. You can't solve an acountability problem by laying off 100% of the accountability to an unaccountable entity.

It is my hope that this post spurs some honest debate; and also that it gets people to think not just in terms of A or B, but in terms of A, B, C, D...etc.

once

Book
9th February 2011, 11:30 AM
Let's take a look at the capitalist vs. socialist dialectic.



http://dericbownds.net/uploaded_images/Rich_poor.jpg

Be nice to see just once some "Democracy" have the only two real political parties that exist in reality:

RICH v. POOR.

DMac
9th February 2011, 11:34 AM
I think what you wrote is accurate and in line with my thoughts on the subject.

Without taking away the monopoly on money (or debt) creation, no "ism" is going to help.

Hatha Sunahara
9th February 2011, 12:09 PM
It is nothing less than sheer hypocrisy to suggest that victims be held hyper accountable for a situation largely beyond their control, yet ignore the fact that our present system is set up largely to allow rich people to legally rob and oppress people.


I am constantly amazed at how few people recognize that this is the purpose of our legal system. Our laws, our lawyers, our judges make it legal for those who own to steal from those who work. It's because our legal system is owned by the 'owners'. All the rest of our institutions are owned by them as well. We have no say in what our laws are.

I am also amazed at how few people recognize the extent that fascists have taken over governments all over the world, and how easily we are all duped by fascist arguments.

What has been corrupted the most is our thinking. TPTB have corrupted our thinking by corrupting our language. They have separated words from experience. Free markets are corporate dominated supply and demand mythology. There are no free markets in fascist economies. Democracy, when used by the Mainstream Media means 'vulture capitalism'. But everybody believes it means majority rule and voting and what they teach you in the public schools that it means. For example, Egyptians want 'democracy'. They want what our public schools teach us that democracy is. But they already have 'democracy' according to its official definition created by TPTB. I'm sure the way the Egyptian kleptocracy sees it, their people want 'anarchy' as defined by the elite. Anarchy means 'freedom' to them.

Yes, they corrupt our thinking with 'dialectic'. That's the philosophical foundation for propaganda. It's a foil to make us argue among ourselves about what we believe while TPTB are stealing all the value of our work.


Hatha

BillBoard
9th February 2011, 01:08 PM
What has been corrupted the most is our thinking. TPTB have corrupted our thinking by corrupting our language. They have separated words from experience.


I agree.

For some reason this reminds of a quote from Monty Python's Life of Brian where one of the men wants to be a woman and have babies even though he does not have a womb:


Judith: [on Stan's desire to be a mother] Here! I've got an idea: Suppose you agree that he can't actually have babies, not having a womb - which is nobody's fault, not even the Romans' - but that he can have the *right* to have babies.
Francis: Good idea, Judith. We shall fight the oppressors for your right to have babies, brother... sister, sorry.
Reg: What's the *point*?
Francis: What?
Reg: What's the point of fighting for his right to have babies, when he can't have babies?
Francis: It is symbolic of our struggle against oppression.
Reg: It's symbolic of his struggle against reality.

One must be able to think clearly and critically and accept reality instead of struggling against it. But at what point can one distinguish reality as imposed by Nature vs. reality as whim or will of Man?

Think for example, what gives your peers the right to breed uncontrollably and crowd you out of existence?

Certainly only might and their ability to do so, which you may not possess.

Occam's Razor.

What's your personal constitution?

What do you believe at your fundamental core?

Do you believe to exclude others and your absolute right to exclude them?

Or do you believe in the collective right of existence?

Reality provides examples, the collective cannot survive beyond the physical constraints nor can the singular.

So which is it?

Delusion. That's what enables the rich to be rich and the poor exploited.

It does not get any simpler than that.

Panoptimist
9th February 2011, 01:13 PM
They're both the playthings of the same group. (http://www.scribd.com/doc/22249168/World-Revolution-by-Nesta-Webster)

'Hegelian Dialectic.'

onceseen
9th February 2011, 03:58 PM
"They used to call them piss but they weren't moving any units."
from the movie beautiful girls

The bad guys like to mix euphemism with moral relativity in order to try and justify that which can't be justified.

Campaign financing, political contributions (bribery)
Pay your fair share (robbery)
Defending your freedom (murder, rape, and plunder)
security (surveillance)

dys (once doesn't sound quite right, everyone knows who I am, anyway)






It is nothing less than sheer hypocrisy to suggest that victims be held hyper accountable for a situation largely beyond their control, yet ignore the fact that our present system is set up largely to allow rich people to legally rob and oppress people.


I am constantly amazed at how few people recognize that this is the purpose of our legal system. Our laws, our lawyers, our judges make it legal for those who own to steal from those who work. It's because our legal system is owned by the 'owners'. All the rest of our institutions are owned by them as well. We have no say in what our laws are.

I am also amazed at how few people recognize the extent that fascists have taken over governments all over the world, and how easily we are all duped by fascist arguments.

What has been corrupted the most is our thinking. TPTB have corrupted our thinking by corrupting our language. They have separated words from experience. Free markets are corporate dominated supply and demand mythology. There are no free markets in fascist economies. Democracy, when used by the Mainstream Media means 'vulture capitalism'. But everybody believes it means majority rule and voting and what they teach you in the public schools that it means. For example, Egyptians want 'democracy'. They want what our public schools teach us that democracy is. But they already have 'democracy' according to its official definition created by TPTB. I'm sure the way the Egyptian kleptocracy sees it, their people want 'anarchy' as defined by the elite. Anarchy means 'freedom' to them.

Yes, they corrupt our thinking with 'dialectic'. That's the philosophical foundation for propaganda. It's a foil to make us argue among ourselves about what we believe while TPTB are stealing all the value of our work.


Hatha