I am your testbed/playground

[SLV^GLD]

Well, here is a chance for us all to play Mr. Legal Eagle at my expense. The attached ticket is less than 1 hour old, the ink still smears.

Full disclosure: I was absolutely doing every bit of the 86mph in the 70mph zone. I had been drinking earlier and although I am positive I could have passed a sobriety test I was careful to never look the officer in the face so as to let him smell my breath. As such, conversation was kept to a minimum. I was traveling from one county to the next in a non-commercial sort of way.

Conversation went as follows:

NCHP: I clocked you doing 86mph in a 70mph zone; any particular reason you were going so fast?
Me: No, sir, I was simply trying to get home to $residentcity (which was less than 10 miles away) and going with traffic which must have been faster than I realized.
NCHP: If you live in $residentcity why is your driver's license for the state of NC?
Me: Sir, I am domiciled in the state of TN and a resident of NC.
NCHP: I hear you, I am going to cite you for speeding in a 70mph zone at the speed of 86mph.

The officer goes to write the ticket.

NCHP: I have written you a citation for 86mph in a 70mph zone, this requirtes a mandatory court date of $courtdate. Do you have any questions?
Me: I will slow down.
NCHP: Slow down and be safe.

END

I may have tried more tricks if I weren't paranoid of alcohol being detected on my breath. I have been harassed and DUI tested when I was stone cold sober and I have no intention of repeating the experience especially when there is some degree of doubt to my ability to prove 100% sobriety.

So, there it is. Apparently, I HAVE to appear in court, there is no dollar amount I can remit in lieu of appearance.

Any and all recommendations on how to proceed from here will be considered and most likely executed and the thread will be updated as this progresses.

[Antonio]

Another reason to stick to grass and Visine. Always hated the smell part of booze, I can hold liquor/drugs amazingly well, never any visible/audible hint of intoxication but the damn acetaldehyde will give you away...

[Large Sarge]

call the officer before the trial, be nice

I have seen tickets/points reduced, to save the insurance costs (fine was the same, revenue for the state)

call the court if that fails, ask if you can just pay the fine?

your speed was not "reckless" and does not usually constitute a mandatory appearance (every state is different, but most start "reckless" at 20 mph over the limit)

[Ponce]

I just paid for a speeding ticket 69 in a 55 mile zone............in the old days tickets were given as a warning but now days they are a ATM machine for the county...I, you, we, are fuck.

[platinumdude]

If you are concerned about points and higher insurance then get a real lawyer to help you out.

[SLV^GLD]

Let me be clear.
The worst case is already mentally accepted.
I will have to pay court fees, the amount of the ticket and my insurance will see some points (which for whatever reason does not up the cost).
Ok, done with that.
Now, I wanna do the whole contract offer/counteroffer affidavit routine and when that fails the question the judges jurisdiction routine.
When all that fails the worst case scenario outlined above befalls me and I baa and pay like all the rest of the sheep.
But what if....

Let me be doubly clear, the above is the WORST case scenario I will accept. I don't want to intentionally walk into a contempt of court charge, mmkay. But I am down with responding with a counteroffer within X-hours kind of thing.

[SLV^GLD]

Another reason to stick to grass and Visine. Always hated the smell part of booze, I can hold liquor/drugs amazingly well, never any visible/audible hint of intoxication but the damn acetaldehyde will give you away...
I quit the pot, as I have many times. You ever tried JWH? Doesn't show up on tests. I'm not a do anything all the time kind of guy but I am a do anything some of the time forever kind of guy. The booze was literally social and I could have swung sobriety tests I just didn't want that to delay me getting home or increase my blood pressure.

[SLV^GLD]

If you are concerned about points and higher insurance then get a real lawyer to help you out.
Whatever, increase my financial burden? No thanks. I am fully capable of representing myself. I have gotten out of many a ticket without a lawyer. This isn't about escaping the fine. This about proving all the ideals espoused around here. The judge lacks jurisdiction, the ticket is a contract offer I can counteroffer, that sort of thing. Let's run with it.

[Antonio]

Another reason to stick to grass and Visine. Always hated the smell part of booze, I can hold liquor/drugs amazingly well, never any visible/audible hint of intoxication but the damn acetaldehyde will give you away...
I quit the pot, as I have many times. You ever tried JWH? Doesn't show up on tests. I'm not a do anything all the time kind of guy but I am a do anything some of the time forever kind of guy. The booze was literally social and I could have swung sobriety tests I just didn't want that to delay me getting home or increase my blood pressure.


I just googled JWH, sounds good. Where does one get this? I`ve had 11 absolutely clean yrs, I think a little herb here and there can`t hurt...

[sunnyandseventy]

I don't get the appear in court part. Usually there's an option to pay the fine and accept the points if any.

[milehi]

I don't get the appear in court part. Usually there's an option to pay the fine and accept the points if any.


In CA, you can write a letter to the court. It called "trial by declaration". If you're found guilty after writing the letter, you can start over with a new trial. I received a ticket for allegedly "following too close". The citing officer was in front of me :D. This was in September of last year, and I've drug out my exstensions and am currently awaiting the court's decision on the letter. When all is said and done, a year will have passed, but I'm playing by their rules. And...Officer Poncharello has already been transfered far away, so I know he wont show, but I'm going to waste more of their time. It's their rules.

[Book]

So, there it is. Apparently, I HAVE to appear in court, there is no dollar amount I can remit in lieu of appearance.



That's what it says.

:)

[SLV^GLD]

So, there it is. Apparently, I HAVE to appear in court, there is no dollar amount I can remit in lieu of appearance.



That's what it says.

:)
Actually, that is what it DOES NOT say. The cop actually vocalized it. The piece of paper is lacking in any information regarding settling the "contract" by way of fiat recompense. However, there is a court date displayed. It seems much more implied than I suspect it can actually be declared.

[Book]

Actually, that is what it DOES NOT say.



What part of "YOU MUST APPEAR IN DISTRICT COURT" confuses you?

:)

[SLV^GLD]

Actually, that is what it DOES NOT say.



What part of "YOU MUST APPEAR IN DISTRICT COURT" confuses you?

:)
I'm not confused about that part. I am OPEN to what to do when I appear. Any suggestions besides being a sardonic observer are welcome. The only confusion I might have would be over how to describe the concept that I DON'T have to appear. In other words, how the fuck would accomplish a damned thing if I didn't appear; if not only to separate me from the stray man they "charged" who I suspect I am deeply responsible for?

[solid]

SLV...what's the vehicle code violation you got cited for? Can't make it out with your photo.

[Book]

I am OPEN to what to do when I appear. Any suggestions besides being a sardonic observer are welcome.



Well...you can tell the Judge about you drinking before going 86mph and see how that goes:




Full disclosure: I was absolutely doing every bit of the 86mph in the 70mph zone. I had been drinking earlier and although I am positive I could have passed a sobriety test I was careful to never look the officer in the face so as to let him smell my breath.



:)

[SLV^GLD]

SLV...what's the vehicle code violation you got cited for? Can't make it out with your photo.


G.S. 20-141 (JI)
[quote]
§ 20‑141. Speed restrictions.

(a) No person shall drive a vehicle on a highway or in a public vehicular area at a speed greater than is reasonable and prudent under the conditions then existing.

(b) Except as otherwise provided in this Chapter, it shall be unlawful to operate a vehicle in excess of the following speeds:

(1) Thirty‑five miles per hour inside municipal corporate limits for all vehicles.

(2) Fifty‑five miles per hour outside municipal corporate limits for all vehicles except for school buses and school activity buses.

(c) Except while towing another vehicle, or when an advisory safe‑speed sign indicates a slower speed, or as otherwise provided by law, it shall be unlawful to operate a passenger vehicle upon the interstate and primary highway system at less than the following speeds:

(1) Forty miles per hour in a speed zone of 55 miles per hour.

(2) Forty‑five miles per hour in a speed zone of 60 miles per hour or greater.

These minimum speeds shall be effective only when appropriate signs are posted indicating the minimum speed.

(d) (1) Whenever the Department of Transportation determines on the basis of an engineering and traffic investigation that any speed allowed by subsection (b) is greater than is reasonable and safe under the conditions found to exist upon any part of a highway outside the corporate limits of a municipality or upon any part of a highway designated as part of the Interstate Highway System or any part of a controlled‑access highway (either inside or outside the corporate limits of a municipality), the Department of Transportation shall determine and declare a reasonable and safe speed limit.

(2) Whenever the Department of Transportation determines on the basis of an engineering and traffic investigation that a higher maximum speed than those set forth in subsection (b) is reasonable and safe under the conditions found to exist upon any part of a highway designated as part of the Interstate Highway System or any part of a controlled‑access highway (either inside or outside the corporate limits of a municipality) the Department of Transportation shall determine and declare a reasonable and safe speed limit. A speed limit set pursuant to this subsection may not exceed 70 miles per hour.

Speed limits set pursuant to this subsection are not effective until appropriate signs giving notice thereof are erected upon the parts of the highway affected.

(e) Local authorities, in their respective jurisdictions, may authorize by ordinance higher speeds or lower speeds than those set out in subsection (b) upon all streets which are not part of the State highway system; but no speed so fixed shall authorize a speed in excess of 55 miles per hour. Speed limits set pursuant to this subsection shall be effective when appropriate signs giving notice thereof are erected upon the part of the streets affected.

(e1) Local authorities within their respective jurisdictions may authorize, by ordinance, lower speed limits than those set in subsection (b) of this section on school property. If the lower speed limit is being set on the grounds of a public school, the local school administrative unit must request or consent to the lower speed limit. If the lower speed limit is being set on the grounds of a private school, the governing body of the school must request or consent to the lower speed limit. Speed limits established pursuant to this subsection shall become effective when appropriate signs giving notice of the speed limit are erected upon affected property. A person who drives a motor vehicle on school property at a speed greater than the speed limit set and posted under this subsection is responsible for an infraction and is required to pay a penalty of not less than twenty‑five dollars ($25.00).

(f) Whenever local authorities within their respective jurisdictions determine upon the basis of an engineering and traffic investigation that a higher maximum speed than those set forth in subsection (b) is reasonable and safe, or that any speed hereinbefore set forth is greater than is reasonable and safe, under the conditions found to exist upon any part of a street within the corporate limits of a municipality and which street is a part of the State highway system (except those highways designated as part of the interstate highway system or other controlled‑access highway) said local authorities shall determine and declare a safe and reasonable speed limit. A speed limit set pursuant to this subsection may not exceed 55 miles per hour. Limits set pursuant to this subsection shall become effective when the Department of Transportation has passed a concurring ordinance and signs are erected giving notice of the authorized speed limit.

When local authorities annex a road on the State highway system, the speed limit posted on the road at the time the road was annexed shall remain in effect until both the Department and municipality pass concurrent ordinances to change the speed limit.

The Department of Transportation is authorized to raise or lower the statutory speed limit on all highways on the State highway system within municipalities which do not have a governing body to enact municipal ordinances as provided by law. The Department of Transportation shall determine a reasonable and safe speed limit in the same manner as is provided in G.S. 20‑141(d)(1) and G.S. 20‑141(d)(2) for changing the speed limits outside of municipalities, without action of the municipality.

(g) Whenever the Department of Transportation or local authorities within their respective jurisdictions determine on the basis of an engineering and traffic investigation that slow speeds on any part of a highway considerably impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic, the Department of Transportation or such local authority may determine and declare a minimum speed below which no person shall operate a motor vehicle except when necessary for safe operation in compliance with law. Such minimum speed limit shall be effective when appropriate signs giving notice thereof are erected on said part of the highway. Provided, such minimum speed limit shall be effective as to those highways and streets within the corporate limits of a municipality which are on the State highway system only when ordinances adopting the minimum speed limit are passed and concurred in by both the Department of Transportation and the local authorities. The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to farm tractors and other motor vehicles operating at reasonable speeds for the type and nature of such vehicles.

(h) No person shall operate a motor vehicle on the highway at such a slow speed as to impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic except when reduced speed is necessary for safe operation or in compliance with law; provided, this provision shall not apply to farm tractors and other motor vehicles operating at reasonable speeds for the type and nature of such vehicles.

(i) The Department of Transportation shall have authority to designate and appropriately mark certain highways of the State as truck routes.

(j) Repealed by Session Laws 1997, c. 443, s. 19.26(b).

(j1) A person who drives a vehicle on a highway at a speed that is either more than 15 miles per hour more than the speed limit established by law for the highway where the offense occurred or over 80 miles per hour is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.

http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/bychapter/chapter_20.html

[solid]

OK, that's why you have to show up to court, it's classified as a misdemeanor, not an infraction.

Since you were clocked over 80, it's hard to dispute this, imo. Sorry to hear about the ticket. Your best bet, imo, is to show up and hope the cop doesn't show up.

You could try pleading financial troubles, to reduce the fine. Sometimes that works.

"(j1) A person who drives a vehicle on a highway at a speed that is either more than 15 miles per hour more than the speed limit established by law for the highway where the offense occurred or over 80 miles per hour is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor."

[willie pete]

yea....it's a criminal misdemeanor, so you HAVE to appear...around here 16 mph over is>>>>> Speeding 15-19 MPH $ 269.00 :o I'd think there would be some court costs thrown in too

[sirgonzo420]

You can "refuse for cause" the ticket within 72 hours, but you'll still need to appear in court.

Either way, when they call "your name" (which is actually a legal name as found on the birth certificate that creates your [their] legal person), say that you are here for that matter. What you want to do is appear SPECIALLY and not GENERALLY. A general appearance constitutes your agreement to their jurisdiction.

Don't plea.

Don't "understand the charges".

Don't argue the merits of the case. (whether you were speeding or not)

Tell them you must be informed of the nature and cause of the proceedings.

Ask them if it is civil or criminal. (they almost always give some bullshit answer)

If they say civil, then demand that the contract be placed on the record.

If they say criminal, ask to face the injured party.

Ask the judge who he represents. (the judge is paid by the same entity as the prosecutor and the cop)

You can look up "Marc Stevens" for some fun things to ask/say in traffic court. The traffic commissioner (not elected judge), will probably try to bullshit/railroad you, but you can stand your ground.

http://marcstevens.net/articles/72-top-10-tips-for-traffic-court.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL70LQPHiQA

Another method you can use is the "ticketslayer" method (common law default), which sells online for $75, but is available free from here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/3279508/Default-Course


Try not to "argue"... Courts gain jurisdiction over controversy. No controversy, no jurisdiction. Ask questions.

Have fun.

[iOWNme]

SirGonzo pretty much nailed it.

Dont go in trying to win, go in to do whats RIGHT! This is a big misconception, IMO.....

Do what you know is right, stand up for morals and Justice, and last but not least.....HAVE FUN! Its a friggin traffic ticket.

:)

[mightymanx]

I vote you try this one it might work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y70vcs3oV14

[solid]

SirGonzo pretty much nailed it.

Dont go in trying to win, go in to do whats RIGHT! This is a big misconception, IMO.....

Do what you know is right, stand up for morals and Justice, and last but not least.....HAVE FUN! Its a friggin traffic ticket.

:)


SLV, SirGonzo's advise is very interesting to say the least. Definitely have fun with this, and I hope you update this thread so we can all learn from your experience.

[SLV^GLD]

"Fun" may be an inappropriate word but I am definitely approaching this from a nothing to lose perspective. Other than contempt the worst they can put on me is a high priced traffic citation. All else failing I get the same punishment as the average guy who pleads guilty from the start. I am not interested in combating the system jut requesting it prove itself jurisdictional. I am studying up on "refusal for cause" right now.

[sirgonzo420]

"Fun" may be an inappropriate word but I am definitely approaching this from a nothing to lose perspective. Other than contempt the worst they can put on me is a high priced traffic citation. All else failing I get the same punishment as the average guy who pleads guilty from the start. I am not interested in combating the system jut requesting it prove itself jurisdictional. I am studying up on "refusal for cause" right now.


As long as you aren't overly belligerent, you shouldn't get any "contempt" charge.

Keep in mind that if you file any paperwork (as with the common law default method or refusal for cause), they will likely keep you to the very end, and call "your name" last, after all the sheep have moved through, so that they won't be able to hear what you have to say.

Sometimes it's fun to fuck with the clerks and actually file paperwork into a traffic case (the clerks generally act like they don't know how to mark two copies of a document received, keep a copy for the case file, and give your copy back to you for your records.... expect the court clerks to act like total retards, and require your hand-holding throughout the filing process), other times it's fun to go in there without filing anything so you can catch them off guard and do your thing in front of a gallery full of their "customers".

I posted a link in another post, but here are Marc Stevens 10 Tips for Traffic Court:


If you're unfortunate to have gotten a traffic ticket, keep the following tips in mind, your chances of getting it kicked out are much greater:

1. Do not be argumentative.
2. Don’t bring your own opinion or arguments to convince the judge.
3. Stick to the facts.
4. Repeat I am not an attorney I don’t understand.
5. Don’t object and press a particular point more than twice.
6. Stay on point.
7. Only accept responsive answers to questions.
8. Ask questions
9. Get judge and, or the prosecutor to commit to positions.
10. Use those positions/arguments against the judge or prosecutor.
1. Traffic courts are scams run by people only interested in taking money. They are not in place to administer justice. Being argumentative only ensures you will be separated from your money. Going in thinking justice is being administered is to start off on the wrong foot. Any traffic court judge interested in administering justice would throw out the majority of traffic tickets within minutes of them being filed by the police and mail an apology to each defendant for their time wasted on the traffic stop.


2. Traffic court judges don’t care what we think, except of course what we think is the easiest and fastest way to pay the court fine. We are considered guilty the moment the cop decides to write the ticket. Traffic court is about making it look good and the judge is always going to be perceived as correct and you wrong. After all, he’s judge. But, we can get the judge to contradict himself. If an argument or opinion is used, it should always be the judge’s.

3. Sticking to the facts is the fastest and most effective way to demonstrate there is no case. Just asking a couple of questions is usually enough to have the only witness against you declared incompetent which requires his testimony, including the ticket, to be stricken. Keep in mind that impeaching the only witness does not mean a judge will strike the testimony and throw the ticket out.

4. All non-lawyers are legally incapable of defending themselves and it is unfair to put someone on trial who does not understand the nature and cause of the proceedings against them. The more the judge explains about what is going on, the more can be used to make him contradict himself and prove there is no case.

5. This is related to number one. If I keep pressing a point the judge is only going to get angry and judges are notorious for having anger management problems. Remember, traffic court judges do not care. One thing they care about is making the robbery look good. Don’t help him make it look good.

6. Lawyers, with and without those flowing black robes, are masters of diversion. Never forget their goal is not getting to the truth and administering justice, it’s about getting the money you worked hard to earn. If they get you off-point, they win; your attention on real issues is gone and before you know it the proceeding is over.

7. Only accepting responsive answers keeps things on point and works to destroy the appearance of a case. Beware though, know in advance what is responsive to the question. Bureaucrats are very good at giving what may appear to be responsive answers; they may sound good, but they are not responsive. A good example is “Factually, what is the constitution?” and the bureaucrat answers with: “It’s the supreme law of the law.” It sounds impressive, but it’s not responsive to the question. A responsive answer is devastating to a bureaucrat’s case. I have several scripts available I have used in court successfully.

8. One tactic judges, lawyers and bureaucrats use to divert attention away from what they are doing is to accuse people of “arguing.” This is an attempt to make anyone in court look bad, as if we’re the problem and not the traffic court. By just asking questions, we can point out we not arguing, just asking questions. From experience, this is very embarrassing for the individual accusing me of arguing. Asking questions is also incredibly effective at demonstrating there is no case, provided of course, we stay on point and only accept responsive answers.

9. Traffic court judges do not care if you think they have violated the constitution or the law. But, because their main job is to make robbing people look good, traffic court judges do not like to contradict themselves. To do this, I ask questions to get the judge to commit to certain positions e.g., “Am I entitled to be informed of the nature and cause of the charges and proceedings?” and “Am I entitled to a fair hearing?” Because the very nature of traffic courts is unfair, it’s easy to get the judge to contradict himself.

10. The judge’s and prosecutor’s positions can always be used to get them to contradict themselves later. As with the first question above, after a few more questions the judge will say, “I’m not here to answer your questions.” I just have to then remind him he already told me I was entitled to be informed. Also, by asking just a couple of questions, I’ve had judges declare a witness competent, incompetent and then competent again in only a few minutes. By contradicting himself like that, all pretense of fairness is gone.

One of the most valuable pieces of information you can learn about traffic courts and bureaucrat attacks is this: A ticket/complaint is not synonymous with a case. Of course a traffic court judge will disagree with this, his object is not truth and justice, it’s taking money away from people.

Remember, just because a cop writes a ticket does not mean he has presented a case before a court. No court has the “legal” authority to proceed against someone unless a case is presented to it, this is just a short list of the “authorities” to prove it. However, traffic court judges are interested only in getting your money, so things like the “law” do not interest them. I discuss this in detail in my book Adventures in Legal Land, in several articles and on my radio show The No State Project. There are also archived radio shows I’ve appeared on here and a new video series here about beating traffic tickets .



Marc Stevens is an author, consultant and radio show host. He is an expert on the nature of the court system, his groundbreaking book Adventures in Legal Land rips the veil of legitimacy from the “state” and exposes it for what it is, a public relations scheme. Using their own words against them, Marc Stevens proves there is no state. You can listen to his radio show The No State Project live every Saturday on We the People Radio Network.

http://marcstevens.net/articles/72-top-10-tips-for-traffic-court.html

[SLV^GLD]

I already have working relationships with my local court clerks because my job requires basic filings such as Notice of Contract etc. I have zero issues interfacing with the civil ignorants posted at the gates. Getting them to do their jobs IS a handholding process. The issue is here is my ill-equippedness for doing the handholding.

[sirgonzo420]

I already have working relationships with my local court clerks because my job requires basic filings such as Notice of Contract etc. I have zero issues interfacing with the civil ignorants posted at the gates. Getting them to do their jobs IS a handholding process. The issue is here is my ill-equippedness for doing the handholding.


Just act like you know what you're doing.

lol

Or don't file anything at all, and catch 'em off guard in the courtroom. The downside to filing paperwork is that they know that you are different, and sometimes they'll be more prepared to try to railroad you.

I see it as a sort of bluffing game... they'll test you to see how far you'll go to fight them. Sometimes the traffic commissioner will dismiss it right there, sometimes they'll schedule a date for a trial.

One time for a small traffic charge, the prosecutor dropped their case before I could even go in front of the traffic commissioner. I went to speak to the prosecutor on the date of my citation (in my county in Kentucky, you are supposed to give "your name" to the prosecutor (surrounded by two armed bailiffs in a small room, for intimidation purposes), who may or may not offer to reduce your penalty, before you go into the courtroom to go before the traffic commissioner to plea (or NOT PLEA).

Anyway, I showed the prosecutor the citation instead of verbally giving him a full name, and he glanced at the citation, glanced at his list of names, and glanced at the binders of papers/copy of the constitution in my hand, and said "eh... we're gonna just go ahead and dismiss this". I guess he figured me speaking in their traffic court wasn't worth the potential fee they could've tried to extort from me.

"I was told I'd have my day in court, and I've already paid to park... I would really rather just go before the traffic commissioner and handle this with him." I replied.

The prosecutor said "I told you I'm dismissing it." At which point the bailiffs started to get up, to scare me I guess.

I kinda chuckled and said "whatever", and left, shaking my head.

There's about a million different things you could do before you go to or during traffic court. It's up to you how you wanna play it, but definitely be different than the norm... Hell, I think a lot of times the "judges" (traffic commissioner) get enjoyment from people like us just because we shake it up a bit. Sometimes they'll even give you little "hints", where if you listen carefully to what they say and DON'T say, you'll get an idea of where to take it next.

And sometimes they'll be assholes.


Your mileage may vary, but you're pretty much guaranteed to have some fun/excitement/education and get the prosecutor's panties in a twist while you're at it!