Bernard von NotHaus found guilty on counterfeiting charges

[madfranks]

Wow. What a crooked, crooked "justice" system we have. And shame on those jury members who found him guilty for minting his own gold and silver rounds.

For those who don't know or don't remember, this is the guy who created what he called "Liberty Dollars", gold, silver and copper rounds that he intended to be a competing money with Federal Reserve Notes. The FBI raided his company and stole all his (and his customer's) gold and silver, then they arrested him.

http://statesmansentinel.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Liberty-Dollar.jpg

http://coinworld.com/News/20110328/Bulletin720110328.aspx


BY MARY JANE SKALA COIN WORLD SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT

Bernard von NotHaus, creator of the Liberty Dollar, was found guilty on two counts this morning in his counterfeiting trial at the federal courthouse in Statesville, N.C.

He was found guilty of making counterfeit coins and an intent to defraud. Sentencing will be held in several months.

The jury reached its decision in less than 90 minutes.

In this week's four days of defense testimony, von NotHaus maintained that his "medallion" was not legal tender. He said each piece contained the NORFED name and telephone number, but the government pointed out that the silver pieces bore a very strong resemblance to legal U.S. tender coins.

Forfeiture hearings began after the verdict was read in regard to property belonging to von NotHaus and others that was seized by the U.S. government.

So they resemble US coins, do they? What about all of these privately minted silver rounds? How come none of these people have been arrested yet?

http://www.coin-rare.com/images/products/display/MercuryDime.1.png

http://www.coin-rare.com/images/products/display/MorganDollar700px.jpg

http://www.collectingsilvercoins.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/-1038283206397020170.jpg

[madfranks]

It boggles the mind to consider that gold and silver rounds are ruled counterfeit money, while fiat paper notes are by implication ruled legitimate.

[mamboni]

I remember some at GIM criticizing the high seniorage of Nothaus' silver coinage. I remember thinking that criticism was so absurd and misplaced. Now the sweet irony is that Nothaus' silver coinage has far outstripped dollar face value based on silver content alone, in only a few years. During the same period, the fait dollar has lost another 50% in purchasing power! The conviction of this man is a crime against all good and decent people who ask only that money be honest.

[drafter]

You have to figure that the jury was packed with people who had no clue about gold or silver coinage or it's relation to true money as spelled out in the constitution. Probably the same kind of people that if given a choice would choose a hundred dollar bill over a 1oz gold coin. Uninformed idiots.

[BrewTech]

You have to figure that the jury was packed with people who had no clue about gold or silver coinage or it's relation to true money as spelled out in the constitution. Probably the same kind of people that if given a choice would choose a hundred dollar bill over a 1oz gold coin. Uninformed idiots.


You can bet your ass that exact concept was focused on during jury selection questioning.

Not one person on this forum had a chance in hell of being a part of that jury.

By design... "justice" will be done. LOL.

However, putting a $ value on the rounds was probably not the best idea, though I don't have a problem with it personally... PMs makes up a real dollar - paper does not.

[madfranks]

You have to figure that the jury was packed with people who had no clue about gold or silver coinage or it's relation to true money as spelled out in the constitution. Probably the same kind of people that if given a choice would choose a hundred dollar bill over a 1oz gold coin. Uninformed idiots.


I'm sure one (or more) of the jurors will go home tonight and talk self-righteously about how immoral it is for someone to think they can just print/mint their own money and how they did God's work today putting that criminal behind bars. The consideration that the government does even worse by printing fiat money (no gold or silver) all day and defrauding each and every one of us through theft of purchasing power will never enter his head. What a shame.

[madfranks]

However, putting a $ value on the rounds was probably not the best idea, though I don't have a problem with it personally... PMs makes up a real dollar - paper does not.


Check this out - an official US minted $10 gold eagle coin:

http://acicoins.com/store/images/libertygold10.png

Now, here's a $10 gold eagle coin minted by the private company Clark Gruber & Co out of Denver:

http://caimages.collectors.com/coinfacts/small/16171186.jpg

And here's a $10 gold eagle coin minted by the private company Moffat & Co out of California:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTn_avAGOVgb0XDPQUPPO1FqG6JHiLFI WYBUVVTezIEhPphskMH
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSV8UnVZHrRdYv5NjKVmpQf1rJbtct_8 sd7Q6R2C5Ys7c2vf0-5lA

Those all have dollar denominations on them but are from a time when people knew that PMs made up a real dollar, not government fiat.

[ximmy]

You know he pissed off the wrong person... and TPTB simply took him out... It does no good to look for justice in their court of law...

[osoab]

What would have happened if he would have asked for a fully informed jury?

Also, was it the double strike through the S that really got him?

[SLV^GLD]

This seems an appropriate time to review the word "fiat".

Back when gold and silver circulated as currency it still did so as fiat.

Now that paper notes circulate as currency they are no more or less fiat than before.

There are some well meaning posts in this thread but they seem confused about the meaning of the word "fiat".

[SLV^GLD]

FIAT, practice. An order of a judge, or of an officer, whose authority, to be signified by his signature, is necessary to authenticate the particular acts.

Check any paper money to see whose two signatures are on the bill of exchange (the Treasurer and his Secretary) (as well as the picture of some dead president).
That piece about gold and silver coin being the only tender for debts is in the constitution and it has a whole bunch of signatures on it. Gold and silver coin as tender for debts is fiat just as well as the pieces of paper being declared, by decree, to be legal tender for debts.

[madfranks]

Here's the difference: in a pure, unhampered market economy, people would still use gold and silver coinage as their medium of exchange, while they would reject paper tickets with no backing regardless of who made them.

[SLV^GLD]

Here's the difference: in a pure, unhampered market economy, people would still use gold and silver coinage as their medium of exchange, while they would reject paper tickets with no backing regardless of who made them.
Fully agreed. We can argue the semantics and the origins of the word fiat all we want. The fact is, Gresham's law is a law and not a theorem for a reason. This fact begs the question, what medium of exchange drives out gold and silver coin? The answer is none, regardless of whether or not metal or paper is decreed to be the currency of the day.

[madfranks]

From this link: (http://patriotpowerhour.com/wordpress/?p=927)


The guilty verdict concluded an investigation which began in 2005 and involved the minting of Liberty Dollar coins with a current value of approximately $7 million...

In addition, the United States is seeking the forfeiture of approximately 16,000 pounds of Liberty Dollar coins and precious metals, currently valued at nearly $7 million.

Yet he was just found guilty of producing counterfeit money. I thought counterfeit money was fake, had no value, was worthless, etc. The government and it's agents are nothing but liars and thieves.

[madfranks]

I've been reading about this conviction further and now there are questions on the legality of owning Liberty Dollars. I wouldn't be surprised to see an official government statement decreeing that ownership of Lib Dollars is now a federal offense and they must all be forfeited to the government. What a joke.

[ximmy]

I've been reading about this conviction further and now there are questions on the legality of owning Liberty Dollars. I wouldn't be surprised to see an official government statement decreeing that ownership of Lib Dollars is now a federal offense and they must all be forfeited to the government. What a joke.


There is a design behind all this... Yes, I think you pinpointed it... although, any silver rounds manufactured in the US with a value stamped them should be included.

[Gangsta99]

Sucks that they came down hard on him. Domestic terrorist for creating these coins. Give me a fucking break.

madfranks I am trying to pickup a 1/10 oz gold coin version of what is pictured in your avatar and they used to be for sale on eBay but I am having no luck. Any idea where I can pickup one?

[gunDriller]

Sucks that they came down hard on him. Domestic terrorist for creating these coins. Give me a fucking break.


no double-fucking kidding.

i admire Nuthaus (is that really his name ?), but he did violate one important rule - the rule about keeping a low profile.